The Man Warning The West: Trump Is Changing The World Behind The Scenes

There's mention of Greenland being invaded by the United States. There's

the situation in Iran. Trump has

snatched Maduro from Venezuela. There's

talk of China taking back Taiwan. What

the hell is going on?

>> Well, what you're seeing is the West becoming weaker and embolding our enemies and the final collapse of a shared myth that we were living in a structured world where everything is

done according to the rules. That is now gone. And Trump is acting in recognition

gone. And Trump is acting in recognition of that reality, saying we are not going to play by the fake rules anymore that no one else is playing by. Anyway,

>> is there a risk with this strategy?

>> Of course. And we can talk about the reasons for it. I think it's really important.

>> The floor is yours.

>> Constantine Kissen is one of the sharpest voices in political commentary right now.

>> He's here to unpack the current geopolitical landscape and what could be done to salvage the West before it's too late.

>> So, Russia invading Ukraine was not an accident. It was a consequence of the

accident. It was a consequence of the fact that Putin felt this was the moment to test the waters. Can we now do the things we've always wanted to do?

Because the West lost its focus and sense of purpose. So, for example, I don't know if you know this, Europe is 12% of the world's population, 25% of the world's GDP, and 60% of the world's

welfare spending. Germany destroyed its

welfare spending. Germany destroyed its nuclear facilities, thereby making itself reliant on Russian gas. And in

Britain, we've destroyed our manufacturing, which is now produced elsewhere. and we've run down our armed

elsewhere. and we've run down our armed forces because we have felt so safe and so comfortable because there's been no consequence. Well, the consequences are

consequence. Well, the consequences are here per person. We have less money today than we did 20 years ago. We have

the highest tax burden in peace time history. We're driving out the

history. We're driving out the entrepreneurs and we've already seen a decline in our power in the world and our influence in the world. That's the

big danger. But there is an opportunity to turn things around if we can make these big decisions. What are you hopeful?

>> Listen, my my team gave me a script that they asked me to read, but I'm just going to ask you um in the nicest way I possibly can. Thank you first and

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won't. Thank you, Constantine.

There is so much going on in the world right now that it is incredibly confusing to somebody like me who doesn't spend a lot of time thinking about geopolitics or the bigger picture.

I'm very very heads downstand as I imagine a lot of people in my audience are. We kind of get on with our lives.

are. We kind of get on with our lives.

But every time we look up at the news, there's Trump has snatched Maduro from Venezuela. There's the war with Russia

Venezuela. There's the war with Russia and Ukraine. There's something going on

and Ukraine. There's something going on with Iran. There's mention of Greenland

with Iran. There's mention of Greenland being invaded by the United States.

There's talk of China taking back Taiwan. I wanted to speak to you today

Taiwan. I wanted to speak to you today to understand your perspective on the bigger picture here.

>> What the hell is going on?

Well, what you're seeing is the the final collapse of what people have described as the postworld war II order, which then became the post Soviet collapse order. So, if you think about

collapse order. So, if you think about 1945, World War II finishes and the Cold War begins. So, you go from World War II

War begins. So, you go from World War II to two big major players in the world competing for dominance. And that lasts until 1991 when the Soviet Union

collapses at which point you get the uniolar world in which there's only one hedgeimonyy, only one country that's really setting the terms of what's happening in the world. The west lost

its focus and its sense of purpose in 1991 because we were like, well, we we defeated our great rival, communism, Soviet, Russia, etc. And then we kind of

didn't really know what to do and we took eye off the ball. And what's

happening now is that entire framework that we have had since World War II is disintegrating very rapidly. This is why you know in in light of recent events

and the the Maduro situation you hear a lot of people talk about international law. International law was I don't know

law. International law was I don't know if you if you ever had you will know Harrari on your show. I have yet to wrote the book book called Sapiens in which he talks about the fact that

almost everything that we live in the world in in which we exist is a kind of shared myth that we have and laws and money and all these things. They are

agreements that we have between us to make things real that are not real.

Money isn't real. That piece of paper has no value in your pocket really outside of the fact that other people have got together and agreed that it's money. Right. Well, international law

money. Right. Well, international law really was that, but even weaker than that. Because if you think about what a

that. Because if you think about what a law is, a law is something that has to be backed by not only the consent of the people who are involved, but also ultimately it's about the use of force,

the legitimate use of force. Now, for

international law, there's never been anything that could enforce that law other than the most powerful country in the world, right? So if China invades Taiwan, no one's going to do anything

about it because there is no overarching authority with the military to be able to do anything about it. And so that shared fiction that we had which we were

living in a structured world in which everything is done according to the rules, the rules-based order. You might

have heard that term being used. That is

now gone. And Trump is acting in recognition of that reality. and he's

saying, well, given that it's sort of every man for himself now, I'm going to do what's in the interest of the United States. Is it in the interest of the

States. Is it in the interest of the United States, for example, to have an openly hostile leader of a country close to the US, which is so destabilized that 7 million people have fled as refugees?

>> Venezuela.

>> Venezuela. Is it in our interest to have this person cozying up to Russia and China? Is it in our interest to allow

China? Is it in our interest to allow him to have Hezbollah training camps on the island of Margarita? Is it in our interest? It's going back to the Monroy

interest? It's going back to the Monroy doctrine, the idea that America does not allow foreign nations to meddle in its backyard, so to speak. And so what he's doing now is going, "Well, look, this is the world we live in. I'm going to do

what's best for my country." And I think that's what you're seeing.

>> Is there a risk with this strategy?

>> Of course, there's a risk with every strategy. Of course, there's a risk with

strategy. Of course, there's a risk with this strategy. There was a big risk

this strategy. There was a big risk inevitably with this strategy and I think you know as I talked about in my book the the west becoming weaker and emboldening our enemies which is what we

have done for a long time now is creating an environment where we are opening ourselves up to challenge from other forces. Russia invading Ukraine

other forces. Russia invading Ukraine was not an accident. It was not an accident. It was a consequence of the

accident. It was a consequence of the fact that Putin and other people in his leadership team felt this was the moment to test the waters. Can we now do the

things we've always wanted to do >> and they felt they could do that under Biden in your view?

>> Yes. But see, I wouldn't personalize it down to that level. I think far too many people get carried away with, you know, Republican Democrat left right Biden, Trump. It's an ongoing process

Biden, Trump. It's an ongoing process that's been going on for decades. And

the culmination of it was first the invasion of Ukraine, then October 7th.

October 7th was not an accident either.

Hamas backed by Iran felt that this was their moment to act because again is the West going to be able to respond morally, militarily, and in other ways powerfully to that. They felt that they

were able to test it. The fact that China now is openly talking about taking Taiwan is again another symptom of this same thing. So the risk is there and of

same thing. So the risk is there and of course the risk as well is that you know the the crumbling western alliance we can talk about the reasons for it. I

think it's really important to particularly we're recording this in Britain and and in Europe more broadly.

I think that's an important conversation. The western alliance is

conversation. The western alliance is falling apart. Um and that is always

falling apart. Um and that is always going to be a risk. It's particularly

big risk for Europe. I feel

>> how much of this and before we go into the details and just catch up on a few of the things you said there. How much

of this is linked to nuclear weapons?

Because I was thinking I I can't really All of these superpowers are going for countries that aren't armed with nuclear weapons.

>> And it all it somewhat feels to me that the reason why the US wouldn't get involved if China took Taiwan is because they have nukes. And the reason why the US is a little bit intimidated by

Russia is because they have nukes. So is

it really the world is splitting into nuclear powers and anyone with nukes can do what the they want because they can basically wipe out planet Earth if they get angry. And that has always been

the case except we've been constrained by the framework of the rules-based order. But that got taken apart. And

order. But that got taken apart. And

this is where I think the West and the United States including needs to take responsibility because the the war in Afghanistan and Iraq even more so completely undermined our moral

credibility. You know, how can you say,

credibility. You know, how can you say, well, Russia isn't allowed to invade Ukraine if you go around invading countries on a whim, making up excuses and reasons to do that. So we have

eroded our moral authority and we've also eroded our military strength and the potential that we have to inflict damage on people who misbehave so to speak. So both of those things have come

speak. So both of those things have come together.

>> It seems so crazy to me that in my lifetime I'm I'm seeing cuz it's really never happened in the 33 years that I've been alive. I'm hearing a US president

been alive. I'm hearing a US president talk about kidnapping another president and then going in and taking the oil.

And then you know what? We might take Greenland as well. We might have that big country over there as well. Even

though it belongs to a NATO ally in Denmark, >> it it feels like something has fundamentally changed.

>> It has.

>> And I'm scared of the presidents this is going to set because do we then all just get to start taking countries we want?

>> Well, this is what happens when there is a a a a shifting of the balance of power. This is why I always said

power. This is why I always said maintaining the unipolar moment as it was and not allowing the west to weaken itself was a really important thing because the moment you have a power

vacuum, you always have a power struggle. Mexico is a very good example

struggle. Mexico is a very good example of this. If you look at what's been

of this. If you look at what's been happening, there's been a a gigantic drug war in Mexico for the last 20 years because there are different cartels vying for power. And the moment you take

out the leader of one cartel or something happens, there's a bloodbath.

Because this is what happens when the central authority, the central power, the the current system breaks down. You

inevitably end up in a much more violent, much more unstable, much more unpredictable place. And all Trump

unpredictable place. And all Trump really is doing is reflecting the reality that has been already there for years, except he's reflecting in American foreign policy. He's saying,

"Well, look, if Russia is going to do what it wants to do, and we can't stop them, and if China is going to do what they want to do, and we can't stop them, well, we've got to do what we've got to do, and no one's going to stop us." And

that's the world you've ended up in. And

by the way, just on the nuclear point, I think it's important to say you're 100% right. And this is one of the things

right. And this is one of the things I've always said about not supporting Ukraine properly, which we haven't done.

we have not supported them enough to be able to actually fully repel the aggression from Russia is it would inevitably lead to lots of other small countries pursuing nuclear weapons because it is the only guarantee of

security in this world. it that is a huge danger for the world in terms of nuclear proliferation because if the precedent is like you say the people with nuclear weapons can do what they

want and they can never be attacked and the people with no nuclear weapons are vulnerable and weak what would be the most rational thing for you to do if you're a smaller country that's the big danger

>> cuz you know you were talking about a uniolar world and a multi-polar world but I wonder if the it's going to be how many nuclear powers are there there's like nine or or 10 >> if the world is going to split into these 10 nuclear powers and these 10

nuclear powers can basically do what they want.

>> Well, nuclear powers are different. I

don't I don't see Pakistan likely to be rampaging through its neighbors, not at least cuz they're all they're all nuclear powers themselves. Uh I think you're you're talking about Russia, China, and the US primarily. I don't see

Britain, you know, reinvading France, although that's something obviously I'm in favor of. If Pakistan decided to take a neighboring country though, >> nobody can really come for them because >> uh economic >> having one nuke is not the same as

having a gigantic nuclear arsenal. I

think Pakistan is relatively constrained in its behavior, but the big superpowers are not. So,

are not. So, >> by the way, retaking France was a joke.

I just want to make that clear.

>> And there's eight there's nine nuclear powers. United States, Russia, UK,

powers. United States, Russia, UK, France China India Pakistan North Korea, and Israel. Although I don't think they admit it.

>> Yeah. Israel's policy on nuclear weapons is very funny. Do you know what the official position is? We don't have nuclear weapons, but if the state of Israel is at risk of being destroyed, we

will definitely use them.

>> So, how did we get here? What are what are the factors at play that brought us to this particular situation? You talked

about the crumbling of the Western Alliance and other things. What what do we need to know about what happened for us to get to this state where it seems like it's every big power for themsel?

>> Well, partly we've already talked about it. So it's it's after 91 in particular

it. So it's it's after 91 in particular the west loses its not only its sense of purpose but it loses its its sense of danger and sense of risk. So we get very comfortable. I don't know if you know

comfortable. I don't know if you know this uh Europe is 12% of the world's population, 25% of the world's GDP and 60% of the world's welfare spending.

>> Wow.

>> So if you do that, that is a sign that you've got very comfortable. You've got

very lazy. You have lost the ability to realize you live in a dangerous world.

It's, you know, this is a bit of a sidetrack, but it is an important addendum to this conversation. This is

why European countries have pursued economic suicide that we call net zero as vigorously as we have because we have felt so safe and so comfortable. we've

engaged in all this luxury uh obsessions to the point where as you know Germany destroyed its nuclear facilities uh thereby making itself reliant on Russian

gas so that when Russia invaded Ukraine the Germans opened the first thing that they said is oh we were going to support Ukraine we're going to give them 5,000 helmets right because they were so

dependent on Russian gas because they refused to produce their own energy this is exactly the same thing we've done in Britain Britain has the highest industrial electricity prices in the

world in the developed world which means we basically destroyed all our manufacturing industry which is now produced elsewhere. We're getting to the

produced elsewhere. We're getting to the point where we can't make our own virgin steel. Steel is kind of important if you

steel. Steel is kind of important if you want to have a military etc etc etc. So in Europe in particular, this has happened because we've just felt so safe and so comfortable and also so

rudderless that we've been able to engage in all these looney ideas because there's been no consequence. Well, the

consequences are here.

>> Where does Britain and Europe sit in the sort of rankings of importance in the world and power?

>> It's plummeting.

I mean, look at the the Trump's uh 12-day war in Iran, destroying Iran's nuclear facilities. No one even asked

nuclear facilities. No one even asked the British what we thought about anymore. And that's not because, you

anymore. And that's not because, you know, a lot of people like to say, "Oh, you know, the Americans, they hate the British." Americans love Britain. As you

British." Americans love Britain. As you

know, you live in America now. You have

a British accent. I'm sure people come up to you all the time and talk to you about their connections with our country, the shared history, all of that stuff. The problem is we have made

stuff. The problem is we have made ourselves irrelevant because everything that Trump is looking at is strength.

Right? Is Britain strong now in the world? No. Is Europe strong now in the

world? No. Is Europe strong now in the world? No. And so if you're not strong,

world? No. And so if you're not strong, you will not be taken seriously. And

unfortunately because of what our leaders have done over success of and it's left right every political party that we have that's been in power they have overseen a decline in our status in

the world in our power in the world in our influence in the world to the point now where the Americans are looking at Europe and they're going why would we be allied with people who are not useful to us an alliance is kind of like a

marriage both people have to bring something to the table what do we bring to the table from an American perspective >> this is a fairly new thing, isn't it?

Because I remember growing up, I'd repeatedly hear the prime minister of the UK talking about how he had spoken to his US counterpart and they had made a decision and then in even with the

Venezuela situation, I think Karma came out the next day and said like, I had no idea this was happening.

>> Of course, but why would you consult with people who don't matter?

>> Why don't we matter?

>> We don't matter because we have nothing to bring to the table. We don't despite the the extremely high level of professionalism, our technological superiority, the courage of our soldiers

and our sailors and our airmen, despite the immense military tradition Britain has, we have cut I mean our debt interest repayments annually

1.5 times heading towards being twice our defense budget. We spent more on paying off the debt, the national debt every year than we spend on defense. How

did the UK get here?

>> Well, our our debt to GDP is over 100%.

We keep borrowing money. We talked about the disproportionate amount of welfare spending and social spending and so on.

We got here by forgetting that we live in the real world and engaging in lots of luxury beliefs about what we ought to do. Uh so we have the highest tax burden

do. Uh so we have the highest tax burden in peace time history in this country.

And we do that not because we want to have a robust military or to do other things like that. We do it so that we can continue to pay ourselves money we don't have borrowing it from our

children and our grandchildren. And this

is the case across Europe really.

America also has a high level of debt but they have a growing economy unlike ours. Britain uh Britain's GDP per

ours. Britain uh Britain's GDP per capita is lower today than it was in 2006. We have per capita which is what

2006. We have per capita which is what matters per person. We have less money today than we did 20 years ago. So our

economy's declined. We've destroyed our manufacturing. we've run down our armed

manufacturing. we've run down our armed forces. And also, I mean, look,

forces. And also, I mean, look, President Trump, I think, is fair to say, is quite sensitive about what people say about him. We have a

government now that very imprudently and unwisely spent the time they were in opposition on him on a daily basis. David Lambie, if you take, who's

basis. David Lambie, if you take, who's our foreign secretary, if you take some of his comments about President Trump, they were just deeply irresponsible.

whatever you think about the rights and wrongs of what he said. A someone who has the potential to be this country's foreign secretary in charge of our relationship with the United States

cannot be so imprudent as to make those kinds of comments. And then you're going, well, you've just been calling this guy every name under the sun and now you want to you want to be relevant.

You want to be taken seriously. You want

to be engaged with as he makes huge decisions about geopolitics. Actions

have consequences and the actions we have been taken have produced the consequences that we've got. Now look, I am not all doom and gloom about that. If

we change our strategy and if we change our behavior, we can change the pro the the the end product of that. We can do that. But that's going to require a

that. But that's going to require a massive readjustment >> with the current direction of travel.

Where does the UK end up?

>> We're already there. We're irrelevant.

We are irrelevant when these, like you said, Venezuela happens. No one cares about us. When Iran gets bombed, no one

about us. When Iran gets bombed, no one cares about us. All the future big decisions about geopolitics are going to be made without Britain even being considered because it's going to be made

by the major powers of which Britain is no longer one.

>> You choose to live in the UK despite your views that the UK is a bit of a sinking ship. I guess

sinking ship. I guess >> because of my views actually.

>> Because of your views.

>> Yeah. Like look, you've moved to the United States, which I'm grateful for cuz it's made us the biggest UK podcast in our space. I I appreciate that. But

as you can imagine, we get offers to do the same in all sorts of different ways, and we could have done the same. I love

this country. I'm very grateful to, and I feel to stay and fight for it and to articulate my views and try and persuade people to my point of view so that we can have a British renaissance, so that we can have a British recovery is my

duty for as long as I can do that. And

if at some point, you know, I feel it's completely futile, which I do not. Um,

>> so you hopeful.

>> I'm not despondent to the point of giving up is where I am.

>> Are you hopeful?

>> No. No. But but I'm also not at the point where I feel it's futile. I think

there is there is an opportunity to turn things around if if everything comes together and we're very fortunate. Uh,

and that's what I'm hopefully trying to contribute to. through history when

contribute to. through history when companies pursue the strategy that the UK is currently pursuing >> where where does it end up economically?

>> Well, Stephen, you're the business guy.

You tell me.

>> No, but I don't I'm not I don't have the greatest view of history and so I'm wondering if there's because you know in the UK I I was born 33 years ago in Bosotswana and I moved to the UK when I

was young and um I've always known the UK to be important and consequential and the the economy to be, you know, much better than where I'm from in Botswana.

So it's it's almost inconceivable for a British person of my age to to think that the UK could ever not be that. Yes.

Because it's always been in my lifetime.

>> Yes. But that is in many ways I'm not pinning the blame on you obviously, but that is in many ways how we got here.

Because what we thought collectively was, well, look, no matter what we do, we're always going to be Great Britain.

We're going to have a great economy.

We're going to have a strong military.

We're going to have a this. We're going

to have influence in the world. And then

we started doing lots of stupid And that's how we've ended up in the place that we've ended up. So this

country has every potential to be great.

The people are incredible. The level of education, uh, the scientific and technological advances that this country has produced, the cultural, look at the greatest bands in human history. Like

half of them are British comedians. I

mean, standup comedy is not a a British invention. It was actually invented in

invention. It was actually invented in America. But look at some of the

America. But look at some of the greatest comedians in human history.

Again, lots and lots of British people.

So culturally, scientifically, technologically, economically, we have the potential. We have to have the

the potential. We have to have the correct leadership and the right strategy. And those two things have been

strategy. And those two things have been lacking for a long time. That's how

we've ended up here. Can we turn it around? It's going to be very, very,

around? It's going to be very, very, very difficult. But I but we've got to

very difficult. But I but we've got to try.

>> Why would these issues impact us on a individual level? So I'm thinking about

individual level? So I'm thinking about the average person listening now, whether they are in the United States or here in Britain. You know, this stuff happens kind of up above us and we get on with our lives. But what are the

symptoms we'll begin to see >> this multipolar world or the the fall of Britain?

>> You are already poorer today than you were 20 years ago >> per capita >> in the UK.

>> In the UK, >> yeah, >> that seems to me quite important. And in

fact, many of our conversations about domestic issues, whether it's mass immigration and all of these other things, they're really proxies for that conversation. because if we if the

conversation. because if we if the economy was growing and people felt richer, all of this stuff would become less important, right? Well, I think we'd

important, right? Well, I think we'd agree with that. So, that's one aspect of it. The other aspect of it is, as I

of it. The other aspect of it is, as I talked about the multipolar world being by necessity more violent and unstable.

We are going, you know, you we I don't know when this will go out, but we're recording this in the middle of January.

It's been like two weeks since the year started and we've already seen crazy amounts of instability geopolitically already. Is that fair to say? So, this

already. Is that fair to say? So, this

will continue and that will bleed through to domestic politics because if you have to spend more of your resources worrying about things abroad, it means you can do less at home and so on and so

on and so on. So the the ramifications of this will be very impactful on everybody around the world more on non-western countries because they a lot of them are going to be in the front line of this in in the way that I I

doubt we will be. Uh but still the consequences for us will be very significant.

>> And we're seeing adjacent to this this rise in socialism.

>> Yeah.

>> The conversation around socialism.

Obviously Menani has been elected mayor.

But do you think this is at all linked to the bigger picture this rise in socialism?

>> Yeah. In fact, I I think you know I wrote an article a long time ago called Why I Fear the Future and I did a video based on it in which I talked about something. It's interesting. I did a

something. It's interesting. I did a live show um here in London just before Christmas and I did a book signing and one of the guys came up to me and he said, "I've got two kids. They're both

teenagers, daughter and the son and I'm trying to pull the daughter in from the far left and I'm trying to pull the son in from the far right." That's going to be the big challenge going forward

because um the amount of chaos and instability and cultural kind of cultural upheaval that we've seen has produced a craving for order and on the

social that's the right side you know we must you know get this and on the other side it's produced a sense of injustice and the pursuit of inequality. That's

why you hear people talk so much about the rich the rich the rich the rich and you know eat the rich we got to redistribute all of this stuff because particularly in the big cities young people rightly feel that they can they

can't really get on the housing ladder they can't establish a family life is more difficult so they reach for these very um dis disproven discredited and completely unworkable solutions of the

kind Manny uh will of course deliver but it's because their sense of their sense is that the future's been taken away from And in many ways they're correct

because as I said earlier we have been borrowing from our children and our grandchildren. We've been saddling with

grandchildren. We've been saddling with crippling debts our entire economy that will come to an end and it's going to be them that is left to foot the bill and it's going to be very painful and partly

they see that and already they see that they just can't afford the life that they want. I do think in the United

they want. I do think in the United States it's a much more contained phenomenon. I think Mamani and if you

phenomenon. I think Mamani and if you look at sort of the American socialists, they all tend to cluster around New York and one or two other big cities. It's

not like the entirety of America is going socialist. But I think housing

going socialist. But I think housing unaffordability is one. Another

explanation which I think is also powerful is what's called elite over production which is if you have as Tony Blair did this idea that 50% of the public should should go to university.

Well, they do and then it turns out there's not enough jobs for them.

Particularly in the age of AI where they are the jobs that are being eliminated very rapidly. You then get a lot of

very rapidly. You then get a lot of people whose entitlement is up here and whose prospects are down here. That

produces a tremendous amount of social disease as well.

>> I think this is a really important connected point on the subject of socialism and the rise of socialism that we will see is this point of AI. And when I listen to very

very smart people who are considered to be the godfathers of AI or CEOs who are building these technology companies, there seems to be a consensus that socialism will only increase because the job losses associated with AI are going

to be pretty quick and pretty extreme.

And um I mean one of them that most Brits won't understand is something we understand now living in America, which is my car drives itself.

>> Yes. And I I've said this a few times because I'm really trying to it's like the first moment Eureka moment I think you have is in America when I get in my car I don't touch the steering wheel or the pedals and it can drive me to Joshua Tree which is like 2 and a half three

hours away uninterrupted and I say this because driving is like one of the biggest employees in the world. I think

it is the biggest profession in the world >> and London just announced that Whimos are here and soon surely Teslas will be allowed to do full self-driving here as well

>> and in such a world delivery drivers, taxi drivers, Uber drivers are going to be without jobs and we're seeing this um huge rise in autonomous humanoid robots as well

>> and Elon's pay packet says that he he will make a million of these autonomous robots and get them out into the world and Jason Kakanakas who just visited Elon 's factory said there'll be a billion of these and he thinks that we

won't even even remember Tesla for making cars will only remember them for the robots they're made because these Optimus robots which are coming are going to be so consequential and the last point here is a very good friend of

mine who runs this big sort of innovation accelerator in San Francisco I visited the accelerator a couple of weeks back and um he I said to him why why is everybody here all these young founders these 40 50 young founders in

your building called effing all working on robotics and he goes well you know we've had all parts for like 20, 30 years. But the expensive part was the

years. But the expensive part was the intelligence.

>> The brain.

>> Yeah. The brain. He goes, "Now we have the bra." He said, "It used to He showed

the bra." He said, "It used to He showed me this arm, this robotic arm that had a frying pan on it that would cook for you in a box. It just cooks whatever you want in a box." And he goes, "We've had all these parts for the last 30 years."

That they were cheap. He goes, "The the intelligence part, the brain would cost 20 or $30,000 just for this little robot arm." He goes, "Now it's like 2 cents."

arm." He goes, "Now it's like 2 cents."

>> Yeah.

>> And he say, "So you're seeing this huge explosion in robotics." I don't think people understand what's coming.

>> No. And going to San Francisco is eyeopening on two levels. Number one is like a quarter to a third of the cars on the road don't have drivers.

>> Yeah.

>> And just visually seeing that is so striking.

>> Um but the other thing is talking to some of the people involved. There is a there are some people who are fairly sensible about it, fairly responsible among the founders, although they will still say and I think they're right that

like if we don't do this, China will and so we've got to do this. But there's

also a lot and I I'm sure you've encountered there's a kind of you know that famous Facebook mantra of move fast and break things. There's a lot of that going on in the AI space and so it's

going to be hugely impactful. I don't

claim to know the the all the little details of how that will play out other than to say it's going to be very disruptive. Uh and disruptiveness has

disruptive. Uh and disruptiveness has happened throughout human history. It's

always produced a backlash. It's always

caused a lot of disease. But then

humanity has managed to recover. This is

different level and we will see how it plays out. But yeah, of course it's

plays out. But yeah, of course it's going to be and yeah, a world in which millions of people in which millions of people no longer have jobs and most of them are disproportionately young people

who are more prone to extremism anyway.

Yeah, that's not a pretty picture >> and one would assume that the wealth will acrude to a few.

>> Yes, >> in such a scenario.

>> And what's funny is I have said really only half jokingly. I mean I wrote a whole book about my opposition to communism and socialism based on experience.

In a world in which no one has a job, I'm like 100% on board with communism.

>> Do you think that's the world we're heading towards?

>> Possibly.

>> Yeah. But it makes sense. I mean, like you, if you think about it from the perspective of 50 people in the world, have all the money in the world, and everyone else

has no job. I think a little bit of wealth redistribution is going to be unavoidable in that situation. And it

can either happen voluntarily or it's going to happen at the end of bayonets.

That's the choice.

>> When you say communism would be the only choice in such a scenario, what what does that mean?

>> Uh it means everybody gets paid for existing, right? Well, I mean, what else is there?

right? Well, I mean, what else is there?

You're going to create fake jobs for people. That's not going to work, right?

people. That's not going to work, right?

So if if all the wealth in the world is going to be created by robots, a world in which th the products of their labor it only acrus to 50 people who had the

idea or did the work 20 years ago that's not going to sustain itself. And so uh it would be very very unwise of those people to attempt to hold on to all that

wealth and it would not end well for them in my opinion.

>> On a personal level, you know, this disruption is going to happen in your lifetime.

>> Yeah. Are you thinking much about it or planning for it at all? Did has it changed any of the decisions you you make on a a day-to-day basis or month-to-month basis?

>> Well, I'm very fortunate that I am probably a little harder to replace with a robot just because people don't really want to hear robots opinions. I would

imagine we might get to that point, but I think it's unlikely. So on my my own level, I'm probably, you know, the time scale I'm working to in the next 10 years, I imagine I'll I'll get myself to

a point where I'm going to be reasonably comfortable no matter what happens. For

my children, >> that was us cutting forward 10 years and watching.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Just totally me just unemployed long.

I can't believe what happened. For my

children, it's a very different conversation. Uh so a lot of people are

conversation. Uh so a lot of people are like, well, you know, what should I teach my children? And people are, oh yeah, they should be a plumber. I don't

think you're going to need plumbers 15, 20 years from now either. So I I honestly don't know what that future looks like. And in many ways, that's

looks like. And in many ways, that's always been the reality of life for most people. We are living through one of

people. We are living through one of those great transitions in human history in which all you can do is equip your children with the basic skill sets of

life as opposed to what might have been done 20 30 years ago where like you you get you go to school to develop a skill to go to university to build a career.

Now, you're going to have to show a lot of flex in this modern world. So, you're

going to have to be personable. You're

going to have to be resourceful. You're

going to have to be creative. You're

going to have to go have a a positive go-getter mindset. You're going to have

go-getter mindset. You're going to have to have those basics nailed down as opposed to here's the career that you've been predetermined to have, unless of course you go into AI and robotics, in which case you probably won't be

replaced for at least 5 years.

>> I think there's something to the fact that there's an angst with AI. And when

you know people listen to podcasts all the time. Yeah.

the time. Yeah.

>> They everyone who has a job in a big corporate environment now is being told by their CEO that you better learn AI or it's going to replace you. So we're

living in this moment of >> there's like aliens coming over the horizon and we've spotted them.

>> They're not quite here yet, >> but it's it's like saying to the general public, look, there's aliens coming and they're coming for your job and everything you value. That angst in and of itself I think can drive people

towards ideas like socialism understandably.

>> Yeah.

>> Because you you know it's it's a it's a deep existential angst >> and also a lot of the AI people not all of them a lot of them are being but a lot of them are being deeply

irresponsible and very unwise with their messaging. What? Last time I was in New

messaging. What? Last time I was in New York, I was walking through Time Square.

There was this giant billboard which said, it was the name of the company, which I don't remember. Stop hiring

humans. The age of the AI employees here. I'm going, have you really thought

here. I'm going, have you really thought about this? Have you thought about

about this? Have you thought about putting your company's name on this poster? Do you understand the impact

poster? Do you understand the impact this is going to have on a normal person looking at that? Um, but they are. So,

the thing is with AI is the the positive upsides of it are limitless. Literally

limitless. And so a lot of the people who are in that space, that's what they focus on. And they're like, we can solve

focus on. And they're like, we can solve cancer. We can solve medical problems.

cancer. We can solve medical problems. We can have AI that's better than any physicist that can ever that's ever lived that can give us the, you know, the eternal engine or or or whatever. We

don't need energy anymore. Like there

are all sorts of crazy things that come out of AI that are potentially beneficial. And that is exciting. But

beneficial. And that is exciting. But

the angst that you talk about, I think, is there. And I think it's also quite

is there. And I think it's also quite rational. You just reminded me of a

rational. You just reminded me of a video that came out this week from Elon where he says this. I'll play it for you. I think it's this one's. So, he's

you. I think it's this one's. So, he's

talking about Elon's talking about the robots that are about to be released from Tesla, which are called Optimus.

And someone's asking him >> how good they will be at surgery.

>> What do you think Optimus will be a better surgeon than the best surgeons?

How long for that?

>> Three years.

>> Three years. Okay. Yeah. And by the way, I say three years.

at scale.

>> Yes.

>> And there will be more probably more Optimus robots that are great surgeons than there are >> all surgeons on Earth.

>> And the cost of that but that's an important statement in 3 years time.

>> Yeah.

>> Um because medicine I mean absolutely if it's four or five years who cares.

It's still an >> extreme precision.

>> Yes.

>> Three years. Um,

yes. Better than any any probably I'd say if you like put a little margin on it. Better than any human in four years

it. Better than any human in four years >> who's in plastic surgery. 5 years is not even close.

>> I think your point was medicine is going to be effectively free. The best

medicine in the world.

>> Everyone will have access to medical care that is better than what the president receives right now.

>> So don't go to medical school.

>> Yes. Pointless.

>> Yeah. pointless going to medical school.

>> Look, he knows way more about this than I do. I would also say that I think both

I do. I would also say that I think both the incentive structure and his personal temperament lean towards a kind of optimism and there's a sales dimension to this as well, obviously, cuz he's one

of the people producing the stuff. So,

his optimism may be a product of the incentive structure that he's subject to. But even if it's not 3 years,

to. But even if it's not 3 years, I I don't think it's more than 10 years.

So, that's the time frame. And given how long it takes to train to become a doctor. Yeah.

doctor. Yeah.

>> I want to talk about the situation in Iran.

>> We're seeing what one might call an uprising at the moment where protesters are are on the street in a country where it is very very dangerous um and also very brave to protest against the

leadership there. Where does this fit in

leadership there. Where does this fit in the broader context? What what the hell is going on?

>> I am not an expert on Iran, but effectively what's happening in Iran is an attempted counterrevolution. So they

had a revolution in 1979. They overthrew

the ruler, the sha, and they replaced him with a an Islamic dictatorship, which is what you've had since 1979. And

the people of Iran have attempted to overthrow this Islamic dictatorship repeatedly. They've always been brutally

repeatedly. They've always been brutally suppressed. And that's basically what's

suppressed. And that's basically what's happening now again.

>> And is does this fit somewhere into the broader conflict of geopolitics in the US, the multipol? Well, only in the sense that you can see that even President Trump, who's talked quite

brashly about what he might do if this sort of gets out of hand, is still not as we speak doing anything about it on a on a kind of kinetic level. And that's

partly for the reasons that we talked about earlier, which is the United States is deeply deeply the United States public are deeply deeply skeptical about foreign interventions.

And so the idea that we that we the West would support a a regime change in Iran is not something that you can sell to the American people right now. And so he

has to be he has to be much more careful about what he might otherwise have done in Iran. And so because of that, the

in Iran. And so because of that, the leaders of Iran probably feel like they're in a better position to crack down and survive versus what might have

happened in the past. I mean, Trump's been quite vocal in what he might do in his threats. He said that the US would

his threats. He said that the US would come to the protesters rescue, that we are locked, loaded, and ready to go. He

announced that countries doing business with Iran, faced a 25% tariff on their trade with the US, ramping up pressure.

>> And he called for Iranians to keep protesting.

Um, and then more recently, he said, "I've canceled all meetings with Iranian officials until the senseless killing of protest stops. Help is on the way. Mag

protest stops. Help is on the way. Mag

mega, >> make Iran great." Well, Iran, you know, I mean, one thing that should be said is the Persian Empire and the Persian people are a great people with a very

rich history. And what's interesting is

rich history. And what's interesting is in attempting to over I don't know if you've ever seen pictures from Tehran from before 1979, it's like women walking around in miniskirts and and all the rest of it. So, they have a very

long history of freedom in a way that we don't tend to think of the Middle East as having today. uh and that's that's that's an example of how it's perhaps different from other parts of the Middle

East. But you can see the the reluctance

East. But you can see the the reluctance to actually do anything about it because the question is well let's say you do remove the current leadership. Let's say

you bring back the son of the former Shah Resa he oversees a transition to some kind of democratic thing. Who is

there protecting that process from being disrupted by the remnants of the old regime? Who's going to do that? Is there

regime? Who's going to do that? Is there

American boots on the ground? Cuz

there's literally zero appetite for that in America. That's the challenge that I

in America. That's the challenge that I think he faces, which is probably why he hasn't done anything.

>> And how do you think the story plays out?

>> No idea, mate. No idea. I I I have no idea what what's going to happen here. I

fear unfortunately that what the regime will do I'm not saying this is what will happen but my fear is and it's one of the reasons that I am

I sympathize so deeply with the Iranian people that are rising up against the oppression but I am wary of encouraging encouraging them unless we are willing to back them fully. This is exactly in

in a way that what happened with Ukraine. There was a lot of rah rah

Ukraine. There was a lot of rah rah rahrh and there was not nearly enough support to actually help them defend their country. My fear is there will be

their country. My fear is there will be a lot of rah. We support the Ukrainian people. We stand with them blah blah,

people. We stand with them blah blah, you know, blah blah blah. But ultimately

the regime will kill more of them and it will kill enough of them for this to go away. That's my worry.

away. That's my worry.

>> Well, I hope the world does come to the support of the Iranians. I really do.

>> Me too. because for all the reasons you've said, beautiful country, beautiful people, and um it's it's horrific to see what's going on. There's

varying estimates. It's unfortunately we we don't have accurate numbers because I mean the internet is down and it's always hard to get accurate numbers in the situation, but I've heard estimates

ranging from 2,000 to 18,000 people being killed. And uh it's inconceivable

being killed. And uh it's inconceivable I think for Westerners like us to understand what it is to live in an environment like that.

>> Which is why they're protesting as courageously as they are. I just hope that the geopolitical realities allow us to support them in the way that we keep saying we would. Do you see what I'm saying?

>> Yeah, of course. Yeah. And this is Yeah.

>> And this is my big worry. We have we have done a lot of this. We stand with you. We support you. And then when push

you. We support you. And then when push comes to shove, the realities of the thing come into play and suddenly we're a lot more careful about it.

>> Trump seems to walk the walk more so than others.

>> Absolutely.

>> And he seems to It's funny because I think it was Biden that said to China that if they took back Taiwan, he would get involved.

>> Trump didn't say that.

>> He's kind of I was looking at some quotes from Trump and it seems like he's basically like, well, if they take Taiwan back, I ain't going to get involved. But in other instances where

involved. But in other instances where he warns countries that he'll bomb them or take action. Yeah.

>> Like Venezuela or like Iran with the the nuclear weapon situation, he does seem to follow through.

>> And I Marco Rubio and Hegathth were saying the other day in the interview I was watching that listen when when is the world going to learn? If Trump says something, he's going to do it. And you

know him saying that we will come to your rescue.

>> Well, hopefully they come through on that, but also hopefully they have a plan for what happens after that.

>> Yeah. And this is the mistake we've obviously made in a number of countries, Libya Iraq Afghanistan, Syria, which is now basically headed by a jihadi.

>> Yeah.

>> Right. Where we go, oh yeah, we've got to remove this terrible guy and yeah, he's terrible guy and we're right to remove him. But then what do you end up

remove him. But then what do you end up with afterwards? So if they do help the

with afterwards? So if they do help the Iranian people, which I hope they have, they have the plans to do, then I hope they have a plan for what happens after that and how you get Iran to a position where the people of Iran get to choose

their own leaders and those leaders stay in power and those leaders are the sorts of people that you might want to see in charge because you know this happened in Egypt. They they they have the Arab

Egypt. They they they have the Arab Spring. They overthrow the evil dictator

Spring. They overthrow the evil dictator and what do they do? they elect the Muslim Brotherhood and then the people go no no no no we need the military back etc. So these are not easy problems to solve which is why people are being careful about it. So I hope they have a

a plan and a solution for what comes after if they in fact act >> and Trump's also talking about taking Greenland >> which is the first time I heard him say that I thought he was joking. I thought

this is just a funny Trump, you know, when he was talking about taking Canada.

>> Yeah, >> it was he was calling it the great state of Canada. I thought this was him just

of Canada. I thought this was him just joking. But in more recent times, in the

joking. But in more recent times, in the last week, I heard him say in an interview, "We're going to do it the easy way or the hard way." Words to that effect.

>> What's going on?

>> Well, we talked about they're trying to protect their sphere of influence in North America and South America, and they they want they want they want to have the military bases there that they want to have there. They want to have

the resources and access to that.

>> Are we returning to empires?

>> We never left empire. This is the This is the great thing that we we've been living in the dream world. We've been

pretending these things haven't been going on the entire time. They have. The

world's always been like this.

There was a brief moment after World War II when it wasn't like this because we were fighting the Soviet Union. And the

Soviet Union, the battle in the Cold War was very similar. There was proxy wars all over the place between those two great powers. Right now there's two

great powers. Right now there's two different great powers and a third smaller power in Russia and India is rising as well who are all trying to make their moves and all Trump is doing

is saying well we are not going to play by the fake rules anymore that no one else is playing by anyway.

>> And so is Trump endeavoring to take that part of the world take control of that?

>> Take control. Yeah. In many ways, it's what every great power seeks to do is to control its neighbors so that they don't have foreign influence in their backyard so that they have the strategic

advantage in that area. Um, it's the way of the world.

>> I mean, I didn't hear this rhetoric for the other 30 years of my life.

>> Yeah.

>> As explicitly.

>> Yeah.

>> And when you say multipolar, what are the polls?

>> Well, it's the US and China.

>> Yeah. are the two Russia wants to claim it's a third one and then you will see the rise of India I think over time as well India is a lot more sensible about these things about the way that they're developing

>> and is is the multipolar world a good thing or a bad thing or is it just indifferent >> for whom >> for let's do people living in Europe >> I think it's likely to be a very bad

thing for people living in Europe because we become less powerful less wealthy less relevant uh for the reasons we've already discussed. We could change it if we

discussed. We could change it if we wanted to.

>> How >> we could uh abandon our suicidal economic policy. So we could have

economic policy. So we could have economic growth again which would increase our share of GDP. We would make our people more prosperous. It would

help to quell domestic unease.

>> Part of which has been created by mass immigration. People care about that more

immigration. People care about that more because they're poorer. Right? If we

were growing, then everybody's a little bit happier. It's like you move to LA,

bit happier. It's like you move to LA, the sunshine is nice, everybody's a little bit happier. When you're getting richer, everybody's a little bit happier. So, that's one of them. The

happier. So, that's one of them. The

second one is you've got to recognize that the huge waves of immigration we have had uh have brought some positives.

They've also brought a tremendous amount of cultural instability. People feel

like their country is changing. They

never voted for it. In fact, they repeatedly voted against it. So you have to arrest the sense that our country is ceasing to be one place and instead we're becoming different communities,

right? The this community, the that

right? The this community, the that community. Instead, we've got to go to a

community. Instead, we've got to go to a place where we're all British or we're all American or we're all French or whatever it is, we've got to integrate fully the people have already arrived.

And to do that, you have to make sure you don't continue to have the same scale of inflows that we've had. You

have to deal with illegal immigration.

You have to stop that from happening because that that really affects how people feel about sense of fairness and a commitment and loyalty to their country. One of the reasons if you talk

country. One of the reasons if you talk to young people they they'll say they're disillusioned, they won't fight for their country, etc. is they feel like well their country doesn't care about them. It's bringing in people that it's

them. It's bringing in people that it's paying to have a house and and so all the rest of it while they can't get on the property letter. So you've got to deal with immigration as a whole package. Then you have to rebuild your

package. Then you have to rebuild your military. You have to rebuild your

military. You have to rebuild your military capacity.

And then you have to understand the new world in which we live and really pick a team and say which alliances are we going to nurture. In my opinion the best thing Britain could do is to nurture the

alliance with the United States to make itself relevant within that alliance for in the ways that I've already talked about and then join forces with the US and recognize that we have very similar

interests in a lot of things and if we were prepared to act like it then we'd be in a much better place.

And also you got to have more kids.

A lot more kids.

>> Why?

>> Uh if you if you look at forget about the moral kind of sensibilities and politically correct stuff about it, the more people you have, the more powerful you are comparative all other things being equal, right? A country with more

people is more powerful than a country with fewer people. Just if everything else is the same. But more importantly, our dem we're in a demographic death spiral. And this is one of the reasons

spiral. And this is one of the reasons we have had mass immigration.

Politicians won't tell you the honest truth of it. But the real reason is they keep bringing in hundreds of thousands of people is if they don't, we will see the reality which is that we're getting

poorer all the time. But if they bring in a mass of people from outside, they can say that the economy is growing not because it's growing on a per capita basis, but because you've simply added

more people to the population. And if if if this is seems abstract, think about it like this. Let's say you have uh you have a family, you, your girlfriend, and you've got two kids,

right? And your total household income

right? And your total household income is £100,000 a year, let's say, for the four of you. Now, let's say you bring in your in-laws. They live in the same

your in-laws. They live in the same house, right? They don't earn anything.

house, right? They don't earn anything.

Let's say they own 10 grand a year each.

So now your household income is £120,000. So you've got richer, haven't

£120,000. So you've got richer, haven't you?

>> No, you've now got six people to spread that money over and now you're per person a lot poorer. That's what British and European leaders have done so that

they could pretend that we're not getting poorer all the time. That's why

they've done it. Uh this is what they say. We need people to come and do the

say. We need people to come and do the jobs. That that's what they mean. They

jobs. That that's what they mean. They

mean we need to bring in more people so we can tell you the economy has grown by 0.3%.

While you've been getting poorer. So

you've got to address the economic side of this as well of the demographic thing. And the third thing actually is

thing. And the third thing actually is societies with lots of kids kids are just much more dynamic than societies without them. You know, you get very

without them. You know, you get very stale when you've got too many older people. You need that young energy, that

people. You need that young energy, that young blood. You need young people. You

young blood. You need young people. You

need children around. Uh and then they will of course be the next generation to drive things forward. So you we've got to have loads more loads more kids.

>> New year always has a strange energy to it because people start talking about their goals, fresh starts, and new habits. But the reality is that most

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And what do you think of Kier Starmmer and the way he's leading the UK?

>> It's very tempting always. We come back to the Biden Trump left right thing to put the blame on one specific person. I

don't think he's doing a good job for the reasons that I told you. We we've

got the highest tax burden in peace time history. So, he's driving business

history. So, he's driving business through the floor. I know that you will we you and I have never spoken about this, but I bet you could name 50 people off the top of your head who've left the UK to go to other places, who run

businesses. You're nodding, right, for

businesses. You're nodding, right, for people listening. But why is that

people listening. But why is that happening? because the business climate

happening? because the business climate here is not good.

>> Mhm.

>> The taxes here are very high and also the quality of life here is declined.

>> And generally, you know, I think maybe the first point you said about climate, there's a pessimism.

>> Yes.

>> Why is that? Why is that?

>> It's self-fulfilling.

>> Yes.

>> It's like a self-fulfilling pessimism where founders who are in my portfolio that I've invested in will come to me and say, "Hi, you know, we've just sold uh 10% of the business for 20 million."

Yeah.

>> And then the next sentence will be their escape plan.

>> Mhm.

>> And that didn't used to happen even 10 years ago.

>> And that's because of government policy.

That's the only way that this happens.

Right? Because if the government a keeps taxing you up to your eyeballs and b keeps telling you that you are evil, which is what it does, right? If you're

rich in Britain, you are evil. That's

the that's the algorithm we have. And we

treat successful people. We immediately

assume that they're privileged people.

Well, my pet theory is that this goes back to the land of gentry. The idea

that in this country if you were rich, there was a time when that was almost certainly because your dad was rich or at least people thought that. And so

this sense that if someone is successful economically, financially, it's probably because they've benefited from some sort of illotten privilege. It permeates

everything. In America, people don't feel that way. They go, "You've been successful because you've worked really hard and you've had a great idea. I'd

love to learn from you. I'd love to be more like you." In Britain, we go, "You've been successful. You know, we got to tax you." So, if the government keeps taxing you and then telling you you're a bad person while you pay the

overwhelming share of the taxes in the country, it's not a great place to be.

You know, if I come home tonight and my wife says, "Yeah, you earn all the money, but you're a dick and I don't like you." And

like you." And after a while, you sort of go, well, if this isn't working, I'll go somewhere where I'm wanted. Do you know what I mean? And I think that's what's

mean? And I think that's what's happening to a lot of the most driven, the most talented, the most successful, the most creative people. And so, we're driving out the business, we're driving out the entrepreneurs. Then on the

industrial side of it, we talked about it before, net zero basically means that any energyintensive business is completely unviable in Britain. And I'm

sure you've seen this with AI and lots of other things. you go to where you can do your business. Then on top of that you add regulation particularly in in

Europe which restricts your ability to do things again. So there's this um you and it didn't didn't have to be like that. It wasn't like that in the '9s in

that. It wasn't like that in the '9s in this country, right? There was a positive go-getter business climate and you can do that again. You just have to have a leader who is willing to do that.

And SAM is the opposite of that. And

part of the reason is that they simply can't do anything about the fact that we are spending huge amounts of money uh keeping lots and lots of people trapped

in welfare against in many ways against their interest and actually in some ways I would argue even against their will because and I've made this point before if you said to you're a very driven

person. I'm a very driven person, but

person. I'm a very driven person, but when I was in my early 20s, if you'd said to me, "You don't need to work."

You know, I know you're feeling a bit depressed, as I was in my early 20s. I

wasn't sure what I was doing with life.

You're a bit depressed. You're a bit anxious. I remember going to apply for a

anxious. I remember going to apply for a job and just sweating buckets cuz I was so anxious. Right. Well, you've got

so anxious. Right. Well, you've got anxiety, you've got depression, you can't work. We'll give you 20 grand a

can't work. We'll give you 20 grand a year and you can just, you know, we'll write you off and you just sit home, play on the PlayStation, smoke weed. I

would have taken that. Most people would have taken that. And that's the position we have put a lot of our young people in. Uh we just ride them off. We give

in. Uh we just ride them off. We give

them benefits and we forget about them.

And that welfare bill has become a unsustainable, but it's also uncutable.

They try the Labor government tried to cut it. They tried to reform welfare and

cut it. They tried to reform welfare and their own backbenches revolted and they caved and they said, "No, no, no. We're

not going to reform welfare. We're going

to tax the rich because the rich, you know, don't pay enough tax." when in the reality I think the top you maybe look this up 10 the top 10% of taxpayers in this country pay

I think more than half of all the tax probably significantly more than half of all the tax but look it up I think the top 1% pay 33% of all the tax fact check

me on this >> okay so the top 10% of taxpayers pay 60% of all income tax >> yeah and also um what's the other one

the capital gains as well. If you look up capital gains, it's basically the same. So if you put those two together,

same. So if you put those two together, which is basically what we pay on earning, the top 10% pay 60% of it. So

what happens when you chase out those people, which is what we're doing. What

happens to your tax base? You get less and less tax. That means you have to tax the people who haven't left yet more and more in order to pay people who are not

who are net consumers of tax revenues.

According to HM revenue and customs data in the UK, the top 1% pay 30% of all income.

>> I said 33. So 30. Yeah.

>> Yeah. So what happens when you say that 1% are evil and they must pay more? 1%

pay 30% of all the tax.

>> It's funny. I'm quite a torn person on this subject because I I represent kind of two sides of this argument. The first

side of the argument, I just have this sort of visceral memory of being sat at my desk in Mosside with these like baiff letters on my right, this smashed up laptop on my left, knowing that I had no

way of eating that day and thinking, "Oh, I you know what I need to do?

There's this thing called jobsekers allowance."

allowance." >> And I was like messing with the do I join it cuz like right now I'm like scavenging for pound coins to see if I can buy some Chinese from Young Dar Takeaway. And I printed off the forms

Takeaway. And I printed off the forms and the forms were there in front of me on the desk to apply for jobsekers allowance when I was maybe 18 years old, roughly that age, 18, 19 years old. And

because I got so close, I have the huge amount of empathy for people that >> get to that point. And then on the other side, because I'm now in a different world >> and I I'm around entrepreneurs so much

who are >> so so frequently telling me their escape plan from the UK that I feel the need to let the average the the normal person that's listening to this podcast that maybe doesn't have the access to

entrepreneurs or the inside conversations that that I have with entrepreneurs know that when people come on the show and tell you that rich

people will leave, it is my experience that rich people leave and like because there there is an argument ongoing argument no they won't leave and there people point out different things no

they they leave they leave I mean we just saw Revolute which is one of the the most successful companies emerge from the UK in recent times it's probably going to be worth a hundred billion the founder left >> I think it's Dubai or somewhere it's

gone to >> and people say well Britain can't compete with a zero tax environment we don't need to compete with a zero tax environment people want to live in Britain still you just have to stop clobbering over them over the head and

calling them evil.

>> Right.

>> Yeah.

>> Now, look, you know, I can give you a sob story as well. Like when I was at university, I had no I had to stop university cuz I couldn't pay for it. I

slept on the street in a park. Blah blah

blah blah blah. Empathy for days for people who are in that position. And

there are lots of people, by the way, and this is important to say, Stephen, who are not in your position. They're

not super talented. They're not

predisposed to success. They're not as hardworking and motivated as you for whatever reason. And many people are

whatever reason. And many people are disabled. Many people have all sorts of

disabled. Many people have all sorts of other issues. And of course, we've got

other issues. And of course, we've got to help them. But what we have done is trapped now hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people who could be

working and have meaning and purpose in their life on welfare and we're not helping them get off it because it's much easier to give them a payout and forget about them. That's what's

happening. And so, you know, I've had these views since before I was in any way successful. I just looked at what

way successful. I just looked at what works. And when we talk about rich

works. And when we talk about rich people leaving, the thing is I don't care about rich people leaving. People

who have a lot of money leaving is not really an issue for me. What's an issue for me is people who are going to create wealth leaving. So on that point, the

wealth leaving. So on that point, the founder of Revolute leaving the UK, Nick Strinsky, I think his name is, um, estimates say, credible reports say that

because he's leaving, there's going to be a3 billion pound potential loss of capital gains tax that he would have paid had he not absconded to the UAE.

Now to put this into more stark terms what that means. I then um did some research and I was looking at how many people it would take to pay that 3 billion. How many average taxpayers it

billion. How many average taxpayers it would take to pay that 3 billion that we that we lose by him leaving.

>> And it says roughly £450,000 average UK taxpayers because the average UK taxpayer pays about £7,000 to £7,500

a year. So very simple math 3 billion

a year. So very simple math 3 billion divided by 7,000 equals 430,000 people.

Mhm.

>> So in plain English, that billionaire's potential tax bill is equal to the entire income tax of a midsized UK city for one year because that person decided

to leave.

>> Congratulations, you tax the rich.

Congratulations. Now half a million people have to pay more tax.

Well done.

That's what we're doing. And because

it's become a moral argument because the rich are evil in our mentality, people don't hear this point at all. It

just totally goes over their head. They

go, you know, but but the rich are evil, they must pay more tax. And you go, even if I agreed with you, it still doesn't work in practice.

So if something is not working in practice, why would you keep doing it?

I think as well, you know, one of your other points was around what the UK has to offer them. And I think if the UK was really growth focused and you know, the energy point you made, energy was

cheaper here, then >> that equation that these founders are making whether to stay or to leave would tilt a little bit further in our direction. So, it's super it's so

direction. So, it's super it's so difficult.

>> And no, no disrespect to Dubai, but most people don't want to have to live in Dubai.

I think the UK is a lovely honestly I mean >> that's what I mean right and I say this with there's lots of great appealing things about Dubai but if you dealt with prime in the UK and you had a growth

focused mindset you had a tax climate that encouraged people to start businesses and employ people we wouldn't be losing these people and we shouldn't be losing these people they are they are the people who will create the wealth of

the future and they should be doing it here they should be founding and keeping their businesses here and if you did that then you start to turn the whole thing we've been talking about around because ultimately everything is about

economics in in this sense the military is about economics.

It's about do you have the resources to have a strong military? We don't. So we

don't.

>> So which leader do we need?

>> Again, I don't like getting into the personality side of things. But what you need is someone who understands how the economy works.

>> Why don't you like getting into the personality side of things?

>> Because what happens when if I give you a name?

>> Yeah.

>> Then immediately people say, "Oh, he's one of them."

>> Okay.

>> Right. I am not one of them of any them.

I'm just telling you what the policies are that I think would work for our country. If Kia Starama tomorrow came on

country. If Kia Starama tomorrow came on your show and said, "Stephen, I'm here to announce a great British transformation. We're going to cut

transformation. We're going to cut business taxes. We're going to get rid

business taxes. We're going to get rid of net zero. We're going to make sure that we have the cheapest energy in the world for our businesses to grow and thrive. We're going to have a strong,

thrive. We're going to have a strong, capable military. And by the way, I've

capable military. And by the way, I've just hired 50,000 new police officers to deal with all the ridiculous amounts of street crime we've got in London. Sign

me up. I'm all K star ride or die, right? But that's probably not going to

right? But that's probably not going to happen. That's probably not going to

happen. That's probably not going to happen with any of the other leaders that we have. So, I'm here telling you what I think the right policies are. And

if there's a leader who advocates for those policies, that's the sort of leader that I will support.

>> Only 18% of Britons view Karma positively.

>> Yeah.

>> With around 65 to 72% holding an unfavorable opinion.

>> You're desperate for me to slag off Karma. I'm happy to do it.

Karma. I'm happy to do it.

>> No, no. I'm I'm actually not. I'm

actually not. Do you know what? Do you

know what my opinion? Kiss Dharma?

Probably a really nice person.

>> Probably >> probably a really nice person.

>> Yeah. I don't really care how nice he is. And that's my attitude to all

is. And that's my attitude to all politicians. I care about whether

politicians. I care about whether they're going to do things that are good for our country. Uh from what I know, he's probably he strikes me as a very uh well-intentioned, probably fairly

competent person.

>> Uh but what he's doing is completely wrong. The only reason I don't like to

wrong. The only reason I don't like to go in on him is I think he I I think he's useless. I do. I also don't think

he's useless. I do. I also don't think it's fair to lay the blame for everything that's happening at his feet.

The Conservatives were useless before that. The Lib Dems and the Conservatives

that. The Lib Dems and the Conservatives were useless before that. The Labour

Party under Blair were actually not useless. They were really really good at

useless. They were really really good at ter doing terrible things to the country. They were very competent at

country. They were very competent at doing that. So what we have had for now

doing that. So what we have had for now one, two, three decades is terrible leadership that's taken us in completely the wrong direction.

>> I I'm I'm I have to cite the statistics around his favorability or popularity because it puts everything you're saying in context, which is these ideas aren't popular.

>> No. Polling has shown that Stalmer's approval among the British public is the weakest of any recent UK prime minister with dissatisfaction levels on some trackers showing him to be below most

predecessors um in even in the Labor government. So that's the the weird part

government. So that's the the weird part because it's not it's doesn't seem to be working to drive favorability either.

>> No, but but this is why I'm saying focusing on him individually isn't helpful actually. And this is not to

helpful actually. And this is not to argue with you unnecessarily. If you put Chem Bono in his place, she'd have the same favorability ratings.

>> Really? Even though she has different ideas.

>> Does she?

>> I don't know. You tell me.

>> She has some different ideas. I mean,

the Conservative Party's gone a long way to changing their policy on things like net zero, right? But while they were in power, they were doing all the same stuff. They were arresting people for

stuff. They were arresting people for tweets. They were driving the economy

tweets. They were driving the economy into the ground with this green lunacy.

They were the ones that oversaw the decline of our military. So uh in in in some ways the personality conversation is really not that important here.

What's important is a gigantic paradigm shift needs to happen to our attitude to everything. And one of them is dealing

everything. And one of them is dealing with unaffordable welfare. The tries

didn't do that. Labor aren't doing it. I

actually thought Labor had a better shot because at least people wouldn't say labor are evil and they hate poor people. That's what they say when the

people. That's what they say when the Tories tried to cut welfare. When Labor

tried to cut welfare, I didn't think that would happen, but they just caved to their own backbench. Maybe they had to for political reasons. But you you you just have to the the shift that needs to happen in Britain is not

political. It's cultural. We have to

political. It's cultural. We have to change the mindset that we have as a country around these things.

>> Cultural transitions are very very very hard. And I say that from the

hard. And I say that from the perspective as a business owner. If you

tried to get me to change when I had a lot of people, so say you I remember in my German office back in the day in social change German office, we had 150 people. Very very different culture to

people. Very very different culture to the UK. I thought naively as a 23 24

the UK. I thought naively as a 23 24 year old I could fly there >> and change the culture of the Berlin office.

>> How dumb was I?

>> This is not how we do things.

>> I could not change I could not change the culture of the German the Berlin office. So I think about a country

office. So I think about a country changing the culture of a country.

>> Yeah. That's why I'm what I call an accelerationist.

>> What does that mean? It means that I believe that the only thing the only way that these things will truly fundamentally get better is when they get really really bad first.

>> So you think it's going to get really really >> the only way to change the culture is for people to understand what's actually happening uh so that they can't pretend the things that are happening are not happening. And that's what's happening

happening. And that's what's happening at the moment. Most people don't yet quite know that they're poorer today than they were 20 years ago. Most people

still think that we are saving the planet when we reduce Britain's carbon emissions from 2% to 1.9% of global carbon emissions. While in fact, we're

carbon emissions. While in fact, we're not even doing that. We're taking our carbon emissions and we're sending them to India and China and then shipping back the stuff they make for us in a

dirtier way on big tankers which actually consume more dirty fuel and we're actually ending up increasing our CO2 output, not reducing it. Most people

don't know that. But when they feel it in their pocket, when they feel like the we're having a fiscal crisis, when they feel like they really can't afford their life anymore, that's when they're going to start to ask some of these questions.

It's one of the reasons actually the narrative on net zero is shifting. Like

almost nobody other than the government in this country still believes in the idea of net zero, right? Because it's

moving quite quickly in that direction.

Uh and on lots of other things, it will happen when things get much more difficult for ordinary people. Sadly, I

don't want that to happen, but I think it's the only way things get better.

>> But on the subject of global warming, it's scientific fact that the climate is changing.

>> Changing unfavorably.

>> Uh what do you mean by unfavorably?

>> Well, if the you know, scientists talk about the poles melting and how that will have big impact on you know third world nations and >> um how that will be a net negative for the planet because then you'll see more

migration, you'll see more sort of natural disasters and those kinds of things. Well, let's let's not argue

things. Well, let's let's not argue about that because neither of us is a climate scientist, but let's accept that for the sake of argument.

>> How is outsourcing our carbon emissions to other countries >> while destroying our economy?

>> That's I mean >> making that better.

>> It's not.

>> It's not right.

>> And that's all I'm saying. All I'm

saying is we are pretending to be saving the planet when we are not saving the planet while also destroying our economy while also making sure that pensioners

in this country die every winter cuz they can't afford to pay the heating bills that they need to pay to stay warm in in what is a first world country.

That's what's happening and it's happening because of government policy.

So we are not saving the planet by killing pensioners. I I'm not in favor

killing pensioners. I I'm not in favor of killing pensioners.

>> Have you ever thought about going into politics? Are you eligible for

politics? Are you eligible for >> eligible? Yes. Have I ever thought about

>> eligible? Yes. Have I ever thought about it? No. I I people offer me to go into

it? No. I I people offer me to go into politics regularly, but it it's just it's not my game.

>> Why? You know, you when you talked about your mission, Yeah. it seems very aligned with >> going into politics.

>> I feel I have way more influence doing what I do now >> than being, I don't know, prime minister. Well, that's extremely

minister. Well, that's extremely unlikely than being the the MP for the whatever on C who who gets one chance to ask a question of prime minister. No,

no, no, no, no. I get to speak to way more people and to persuade more people and to articulate ideas in a much more unfiltered sense. And I think that's

unfiltered sense. And I think that's really important in the modern climate.

What happens when you become a politician is you start having to talk the party line and then you suddenly don't quite follow what you actually believe. Now you have to adjust and you

believe. Now you have to adjust and you have to say, well, you know, the party believes this. Well, I'm not interested

believes this. Well, I'm not interested in speaking for the party. I'm

interested for describing things in reality as I see them. And then if there are politicians who want to take that on, that's their job, not mine. I just

don't have the temperament for it either. I just I'm much more interested

either. I just I'm much more interested about in the truth than I am in getting along with people, coalition building, caring about potholes, you know, all of this other stuff. In this multipolar

world, this is how we got to the subject. I asked you who would benefit

subject. I asked you who would benefit and is it a good thing? Yeah. And then I asked you is is it a good thing for Europe? And you said no. Yeah.

Europe? And you said no. Yeah.

>> Who is it a good thing for?

>> China >> because they get to do >> do what they want, whatever that is.

They're much less restrained by the US.

It's good for India for same reasons. Uh

is it good for Russia? We'll find out.

>> Possibly.

>> Good for America.

>> Yes and no. Oh, I think it's that that is more complicated. I think America will be able to get what it wants in that world, but it's probably going to find itself in a lot more confrontations

internationally, and that will obviously be a drain on its resources and and its energy.

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>> Have we ever been in a multipolar world through history?

>> Well, yeah, loads of times.

>> What happened next? Look, a friend of mine, very good friend of mine gave me uh the the history of the English-sp speakaking peoples by Winston Churchill and it talks about the history of this country of England in particular and

basically you go from strong ruler and then he has no no heir. You have a period of weakness and what happens there's a big power struggle over the throne over over power. This is this is

what's going to happen. you are going to see more instability, more violence, more attempts to fight for dominance in the world. It's going to be a much more

the world. It's going to be a much more unstable period of time. Unfortunately,

it's one of the reasons I've been so passionate about trying to say let's not let's not allow this to happen.

>> Instability.

>> Yeah. in terms of war, in terms of >> in terms of war, in terms of conflict, in terms of people to trying to redraw maps, in terms of people trying to get

access to resources that otherwise would have been considered unchallengeable, etc. Yeah, >> I was looking back through history and I was asking the question, has there been a multipolar world before? And there's

these moments through history, fifth century BC with ancient Greece, um 19th centur 19th century Europe between the

1850s and 1914s, the wearing states of China in 475 BC. And then my next question was what happens next?

>> And the short answer is more friction, less restraint, higher risk.

Realistically, the first thing that happens is rules weaken, which I guess is kind of what we're seeing at the moment >> with this whole idea of international law.

>> Regional wars begin, not one big war.

Arms races accelerate. Some alliances

harden, economic fragmentation, domestic pressure rises, so higher defense spending, higher taxes, etc., um, lower growth.

And the three end games history keeps showing that we have managed chaos, major war, a reset, and then a new hedge hegeimon emerges.

>> Yes.

>> What the does that mean?

>> Hegeimon is the one dominant power that that that sort of in the same way that the US had that moment between 91 and recently when it was the only undisputed power in the world.

>> Do you agree with that pattern of events? Well, I was going to say you

events? Well, I was going to say you sort of make it look like I've got all my ideas from AI, but yeah. Yeah. But

but but the see this is the thing is like before we started I said to you, Stephen, do me one favor. Don't present

me as an expert cuz I'm just a guy thinking from first principles and explaining the basics as I understand them. All of this is common sense

them. All of this is common sense because ultimately it comes back to human nature, right? We are a tribal competitive species. That's what we are.

competitive species. That's what we are.

So when there isn't a dominant force that everyone respects and accepts as the leader, what happens every single time when you have a power vacuum, you

have a power struggle. That's what we are seeing and that's what you're going to see. It's human nature. It's not

to see. It's human nature. It's not

about knowing geopolitics and having studied international theory for 40 years. It's just basic human nature.

years. It's just basic human nature.

When there when there is a dispute about who the leader is, that always creates the thing that AI just told you.

>> Well, the next step in that is a power struggle.

>> Yeah. But that's what you're seeing now.

>> But in there's never been a nuclear, >> right? And nuclear weapons have been the

>> right? And nuclear weapons have been the great force for peace. We had the the great historian from the rest is history, Dominic Samrach, on the show and I asked him about this and he said, "Yeah, I mean nuclear weapons is why we

haven't had a major war and it's maybe the one thing that will constrain our ability to have a major war." It's one possibility.

It's also the great risk.

>> Maybe this is where the cycle ends because of nuclear weapons is what you're saying. Maybe this is

you're saying. Maybe this is >> um yeah, I'm I'm I am hopeful on that front actually. I I am hopeful that

front actually. I I am hopeful that human beings ultimately the instinct for self-preservation is so strong that we do not go there. I think that's that's by far and away the most likely scenario. But of course, it is something

scenario. But of course, it is something that humans have to reckon with and we have to be very very careful as things more and by the way nuclear weapons may not be the most powerful weapons

that exist in the world 20 years from now.

in such a world and I know you don't like it being about individuals but Trump is a certain type of leader >> you know quite unapologetic in what he says >> I think he's got even more unapologetic

because he only has a couple of years left and he can't be reelected because of the laws are you concerned that if a different type of leader

arrived into power in the US maybe someone who China and Russia thought was less likely to send the the the jets in at nighttime

and bomb nuclear bunkers or snatch a president from their house.

>> Would that be a risk for the West in your view?

>> Massive.

>> So do you think >> but that's how we got here. This is why that withdrawal from Afghanistan embarrassing as it was is exactly how you get everything else. It's just one

symptom of people thinking we talked about October 7th, we talked about the invasion of Ukraine, right? That's what

happens when they see weakness. This is

what happens. I remember, you know, um it's kind of funny. It shows the cultural differences between the Russian mindset and the Western mindset because the Jungle Book that we had in the Soviet Union is very different to the one that you see that you guys had here.

Did you see Jungle, you know, the original Jungle Book?

>> The Disney one?

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's all have the, you know, uh >> context you should probably say where you come from because >> I'm from from the Soviet Union. I was

born there. Um and

>> your your father, you've got mother and father that Ukrainian and Russian.

>> Yeah. Basically. Yeah. Um, so the Soviet Jungle Book adaptation, very different.

And there's this the one of the opening scenes is Akella, who is the lead wolf.

He's the the wolf, the leader of the wolf pack. They're on a hunt and he

wolf pack. They're on a hunt and he they're hunting and he misses the he's supposed to grab the animal and he misses. And suddenly the cry goes around

misses. And suddenly the cry goes around the jungle. I ke

the jungle. I ke knows what that means.

Everybody knows when the leader shows weakness and fails, that's the moment when everything goes to and there's a power struggle for his role because

he's no longer top dog.

It's really as simple as that.

>> So, do you think Trump's a good thing for the West?

>> Trump is a good thing for America.

>> I think what he's done by virtue of his behavior is he's exposed the weakness of Europe. And there is a cleave now

Europe. And there is a cleave now happening between Europe and America.

And to that extent, I think it could be a good thing for Europe if Europe gets its act together and says, "Actually, we've got to wake up from the nightmare that we've created for ourselves and start acting differently." If that

happens, it will also be a good thing for the West. That is not what's happening right now. It's going in the exact opposite direction.

>> What would it take for you to leave the UK?

Um you well look I like you know everybody gets job opportunities and stuff goes for a year or two somewhere that that that could happen in any circumstance.

If you mean like for me to say I'm leaving Britain never coming back. Um I

think it would have to be clear at the next election that Britain is actually going further down the path that we're on. So two or three years from now, I'd

on. So two or three years from now, I'd have to conclude that there's actually no there's no way we're coming back.

It's over. And that's happened to great countries and great civilizations in history. If that's what happens, then I

history. If that's what happens, then I I don't see why I should do my children to living here. If we can rescue it, uh, and make this sounding like Trump, make

Britain great again, but you know what I mean. Um, then I I I would love to fight

mean. Um, then I I I would love to fight for that and I'd love to to have my children be part of that.

What is the most important thing that we didn't talk about that we should have talked about?

>> This point I keep coming back to, Stephen, which is we can't live in a world in which we care more about how things make us feel than about the

consequences of the actions that we take so much. This is a Thomas Sol. Last time

so much. This is a Thomas Sol. Last time

you had me on, I mentioned to you what a great writer and thinker Thomas Soul is.

I don't know if you've had a chance to check out any of his work, but I recommend it thoroughly to everyone watching and listening. He he talks about the fact that the last several decades have been spent replacing what

works with what feels good. That's the

one thing we're not talking about. All

the policies you and I have been talking about are all about what makes us feel good as opposed to what actually works in practice. And our conversation about

in practice. And our conversation about chasing out entrepreneurs, it's exactly about that. It's exactly what it's

about that. It's exactly what it's about. It's about fulfilling your

about. It's about fulfilling your ideological emotional needs as opposed to doing things that practically work.

If we can make that adjustment and get back to reality, the world's our oyster.

>> An immigrants love letter to the West, the book that you wrote. It was a smash here, Sunday Times bestseller.

>> Yeah. Unfortunately, it gets more accurate every day, which is really worrying because I was very pessimistic about a lot of the things I said.

>> That is absolutely right. You wrote

this, was it 2022?

>> 2022, it came out.

>> 2022.

>> Yeah.

>> And it appears to be a prediction as the days go on. A prediction that is being validated, unfortunately. I highly

validated, unfortunately. I highly recommend everybody reads this book. I'm

going to link it below for anyone that hasn't read it. What's unique about you is you do appear to be very wedded to objective truth as you see it versus

being ideologically cap captured by either side. And I've seen you I've seen

either side. And I've seen you I've seen you both attack the right at times and I've also seen you attack the left at times which is it's a unique position to be in in a world with algorithms that try and push you into a particular echo

chamber.

I guess on that point what is it about the the right that you take most issue with at the moment?

>> Oh there's a thing that I've uh other people have at a similar time. So, I'm

not claiming authorship of it, but there's something that I call the woke right, uh, which is essentially an identitarian resentment victimhood-based movement on the right, represented by

the sort of extreme characters like Nick Fuentes and Candace Owens in the United States. You know, their worldview is

States. You know, their worldview is that they they've been oppressed. You

know, the work narrative was we are oppressed. Well, now they say we we've

oppressed. Well, now they say we we've been oppressed and uh it's all the fault of various groups, the Jews, the whoevers. So, it's a kind of um there's

whoevers. So, it's a kind of um there's almost, you know, I think it's fair to say that there are elements of it that are just openly fascistic and and and reminiscent of the Nazis that we saw in

the 1930s ideologically speaking. Um,

and the mainstream right has utterly rejected these people, which I think is really reassuring. But there are some

really reassuring. But there are some people who who say well actually no no we need to include them and we shouldn't divide the conservative movement which I think is a huge mistake from for

conservatives to make because their movement and their reputation with normal people will be very very badly polluted in the eyes of independents and moderate people who actually represent

the overwhelming majority of the public.

Even in America, which is so divided and so partisan, the normal average person will vote for this party or for that party depending on what they see. And in

Britain, that's even more the case. And

so to the extent that the right, so they're basically there's a risk of the right repeating the mistakes of the left. What happened on the left? Woke

left. What happened on the left? Woke

people came along and they said, "We're the left. Our crazy work ideas is

the left. Our crazy work ideas is actually the left." and the sensible people on the left were terrified of challenging them. And so over time, most

challenging them. And so over time, most people began to associate the left with blue-haired, nose piercing, you know, Greta Tunberg kind of ideology. And they

went, I don't want any of that. Well, on

the right, if the right allows its extremist fringe to do the same thing, then lots of people are going to distance themselves from that. So, I

think the right has a tremendous opportunity to, you know, we've had this great tension. And I know you've had

great tension. And I know you've had Jordan Peterson on your show and I'm sure he talked about chaos and order and that relationship is a very fragile thing in society. We have had so much

chaos that there is a lot of craving for order now. There's a craving to deal

order now. There's a craving to deal with crime. There's a craving to deal

with crime. There's a craving to deal with illegal immigration. There's a

craving to deal with cultural uh disruption that we've had, right?

There's a craving for that sense of order to come back. And if the right is reasonable and sensible about addressing those issues, they could be in charge for a very long time and have an opportunity to put some of their views

into public policy, which is they haven't had uh the opportunity to do for a long time. If they allow the extremists to take over, they will be painted, the entire movement will be

painted as the extremists and then they will not have the opportunity to actually implement their agenda.

>> Are you happy?

>> Very.

>> What makes you happy?

>> My family.

What about your family makes you happy?

>> Having children is a blessing. It's the

best thing ever. I you know I banged on about this to you last time, but it is >> why >> why are children the best thing ever?

>> Yeah.

>> Can't explain it. It's not one of the like I can find some words to give you, but it's just one of those things. It's

like you you don't know it until you have that experience. Uh I could give you some nice sound bites. You know, one of the things I've said in the past is that the future is no longer an abstraction.

>> What does that mean?

>> It means that in the past I cared about this country or this civilization from a fairly theoretical perspective.

Now the future of this country is one person and maybe other people coming along, right? Little people that I have.

along, right? Little people that I have.

They are the future in my mind, right?

So I'm much more attached. I'm much more attached to the people who came before me. I have much more understanding of my

me. I have much more understanding of my when you have kids, you have a much better understanding of your parents cuz you go, "Oh, wow." So, the reason they did this stupid thing is a I'm also

doing it now for some reason. And also,

they were really dealing with all of all the things that I'm now deal I've got a job and I've got a relationship and I've got a this and I've got a that. So, of

course, they sometimes behaved in ways that I didn't understand or like or whatever. So, you have more empathy for

whatever. So, you have more empathy for your parents. You also have much much

your parents. You also have much much more concern about where your country is going, your nation's going, your community is going, your immediate environment cuz that's where your children live. And then there just joy.

children live. And then there just joy.

I mean, it's um there's nothing like it.

There's really really nothing like it.

It's the most wonderful thing. It's

hard.

>> It you don't sleep a lot and it's stressful at times, but it's the best.

It's absolutely the best.

>> And you've got two kids.

>> I've got one. Uh but maybe more on the way.

>> Oh, okay. Congratulations. Thank you.

>> And what what is your primary concern for the world they're coming into?

>> Well, we've talked about all of this, right? I

right? I >> there was a primary >> I think my primary concern for my kids is that my wife and I do the best job we can in raising them well. And then

ultimately they're going to be their own people and they're going to have to deal with the world in front of them in exactly the same way that others before have done. My grandfather uh my

have done. My grandfather uh my great-grandfather he was younger than me now when he was sent to the Eastern Front while he had a baby son at home and he never came back.

Human beings have had to deal with all of this throughout history. We always

have to deal with the reality of the terrible world that we face at that moment in time. They're going to have to do the same. I can't protect them from that. What I can do is set them up in

that. What I can do is set them up in the best possible way. And that's the only thing I can do as a parent. That's

what I'm trying to do. We have a closing tradition where Damascus leaves a question for the next.

>> Yeah.

>> The question that's been left for you is who was the biggest non-family member influence in your life and how did they make you a better person?

>> Yeah. Not fair to boil it down to one. I

think um I I had a teacher once who um basically made me realize that it's very very important to give people an opportunity to prove themselves and he

did that by giving me an opportunity when I really didn't deserve it but he gave it to me and I took it. I've also

just intellectually Thomas Saul I I I mentioned him reading his books is just completely transformational for me and it really helped me think about the

world. I think on a on a on a kind of

world. I think on a on a on a kind of personal behavioral level I got a a huge opportunity uh to to tour with Jordan Peterson for three weeks a couple of

years back. Uh, and that was completely

years back. Uh, and that was completely transformational seeing him up close, spending time with him, seeing that this is a man who the way he is in public is exactly the way that he is in in

private. And so he really one of those

private. And so he really one of those very very rare people who preaches what he practices. I remember we uh I think

he practices. I remember we uh I think it was El Paso. We arrived right on the south on the on the on the border and we arrived we were late from the airport

starving starving. And one of the things

starving starving. And one of the things that tends to happen is everyone who goes to his live shows works out that he might be at the best steak restaurant in town

>> on the day. So we turn up to the steak restaurant cuz he only eats steak. We're

starving. We sit down. Um the the waiter brings the menus. We're the moment we start looking at the menus. This group

of guys comes over guy guys and girls comes over. He stands up, forgets about

comes over. He stands up, forgets about the menu. We're starving. gives them,

the menu. We're starving. gives them,

you know, all the attention in the world. Selfies, has a little chat, ask

world. Selfies, has a little chat, ask them what they do, blah blah blah blah blah, sits down, places the order.

Another group of people come over, gives them the same amount of attention. And

by this point, we're dying of hunger.

Finally, our steaks arrive, and you know they do in America, they say, "Please check that it's been cooked properly."

So, he cuts in, he cuts off a piece, he puts it on a fork, and as he's about to place it in his mouth, a group of literally 20 people shows up saying,

"Dr. Peterson, I'm so sorry. He puts the fork down, stands up, and gives them all the exact same amount of attention that he'd given the previous people. And just

in everyone that he interacted with, that's what I saw. A guy who talks about living in a certain way, actually practices it. And that was, you know,

practices it. And that was, you know, incredibly inspiring for me. Really

educational, gave me a lot of thoughts about my relationships, how I live my life. Um, he's he's a great man.

life. Um, he's he's a great man.

>> Constantine. Thank you.

>> Thank you very much. Thanks for having me.

>> Staying in the pursuit of truth and I highly recommend people check out trigonometry your podcast. I'm going to link it below. Um and also the book is going to be linked below. Is there

anything else?

>> Yes, Stephen. When are you coming on trigonometry? That's the question.

trigonometry? That's the question.

>> I've just finished my book.

>> Oh, >> it comes out in >> UK exclusive is what I'm hearing.

>> Deal. Deal.

>> Signed.

>> Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

>> Thanks, man. I appreciate you having me.

I believe that we are already at the early stages if not in World War II.

>> We are one misunderstanding, one miscalculation away, >> or even one AI generated viral video >> from nuclear annihilation. So, here's a terrifying detail that the public does

not know. So,

not know. So, >> wow.