The Man Who Taught Me to Fight Without Fighting: My Journey Into Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu - John Danaher

All of the grappling arts out there, they have moves, but they don't have a clear and coherent system that takes you from beginning through the middle to the

end of a fight.

Jiu-Jitsu does.

There's a sense in which a fighter gets ready for the next fight, whereas the martial artist is more interested in what is the course of my life overall?

How will this training influence me as a person?

The focus of my [music] coaching is to make something which most people would find pretty scary, mundane.

When I first came to America working as a bouncer, about that time, a friend of mine at Columbia University, he was also a graduate student, also in the PhD program. Like, I've started doing this

program. Like, I've started doing this martial art. It's called Brazilian

martial art. It's called Brazilian jiu-jitsu. So, this guy comes in, puts

jiu-jitsu. So, this guy comes in, puts on a [music] VHS tape, and I see this skinny dude in a ghee just wrecking people, tackling them, holding them on the ground, strangling. I'm just like, are you kidding me? I have [music] to

learn this. So, George was the first

learn this. So, George was the first true mixed martial artist. No one else brought more attention to the sport through that approach. No one else took it to the level of professionalism that he did.

>> Do you like the term Dan her dad squad?

[laughter] >> And what's the squad look like?

>> Everything [music] that I'm known for in jiu-jitsu is a result of my students.

Were it not for them, I would be literally nothing. like be some guy

literally nothing. like be some guy tinkering [music] away in a basement.

If you're going to do something, try to be the best in the world at it. Get up

there and be among the best.

New York City [music] is a great city.

Every block, every neighborhood is different. Such a powerful environment.

different. Such a powerful environment.

[music] It's a town, I think, where there's so much opportunity, there's also [music] a lot of pressure. It says you either make it or we're going to go on to the next person.

New York has a mystique [music] that tends to draw the most talented people in the United States and indeed the world to it. [music]

Many of you know I've been practicing Brazilian jiu-jitsu since 2002. It's an

incredible martial art that literally changed my life and in some ways saved my life. But you don't know that [music]

my life. But you don't know that [music] it was actually inspired by this man today on the episode, Mr. John Danaher, because he coached a friend of mine in New York City who told me to take up the

art back in 2002 when I was really rebuilding my life from nothing. And I

actually trained with John back in 2002 [music] in New York City as well. So,

finally getting to see this man again some 18 years later was incredible. John

is a former philosophy student at Columbia University. He was getting his

Columbia University. He was getting his PhD when he met Henzo Gracie in New York and fell in love with this martial art and martial arts in general. And now

he's trained some of the best in the business from George St. Pierre to Matt Sarah to Chris Weidman. And he has a completely different way of looking at martial arts almost from a philosophical

standpoint. And he's now gone on to

standpoint. And he's now gone on to create something called the Danaher death squad. These are a small elite

death squad. These are a small elite group of fighters which focused on leg locks. The bottom half of the body that

locks. The bottom half of the body that was ignored for so many years in jiu-jitsu. And he's created these

jiu-jitsu. And he's created these beasts, these savages like Gordon Ryan, Nicki Ryan, Gary Tonin, and Nick Rodriguez that go in there and submit everybody in their trail. And once you

sit down and listen to John, you will see why. It's a philosophy of martial

see why. It's a philosophy of martial arts. I so much treasured this time with

arts. I so much treasured this time with John. I think we spoke for almost 3

John. I think we spoke for almost 3 hours. This man is an incredible guy, a

hours. This man is an incredible guy, a peaceful guy. The spirit of Bushidto,

peaceful guy. The spirit of Bushidto, it's all in there. And we are really just honored to have this man on this planet teaching martial arts. So sit

back, watch this entire thing. Pick up

jiu-jitsu if this intrigues you. And now

I leave you, Mr. John Danaher.

This is London Real. I am Brian Rose. My

guest today is John Danaher, the renowned Brazilian jiu-jitsu black belt and instructor at Henzo Gracy's Academy here in New York City. While studying

for your PhD in philosophy at Columbia University, you became fascinated with Brazilian jiu-jitsu while working nights as a club bouncer. You've gone on to teach and train some of the biggest names in MMA such as George St. Pierre,

Chris Weidman, and Matt Sarah. You're

the founder of the Dan Heres Squad, an elite group of Brazilian jiu-jitsu specialists including Gordon Ryan, Nick Rodriguez, Gary Tonin, and Nikki Ryan.

Today, your squad tours the world dominating professional competitions armed with your unique teaching style and leg lock systems. John, welcome to London Real in New York City.

>> My pleasure. Nice, nice to be here.

>> Great having you here. Uh, I guess I wanted to start off. You just got back from Las Vegas, I think. And, uh, it >> was actually Texas.

>> It was Texas. Oh, yeah. It was Houston, wasn't it? And you had Caitlyn, one of

wasn't it? And you had Caitlyn, one of your students, uh, fighting for a title fairly quick in her career, I think.

>> Oh, yeah. She's been uh fighting at amateur level for a very long time. Um

she hasn't worked with me for very long, but uh she's uh had many coaches over the course of her career and um started coming in for grappling classes and uh

uh she had I've only been in her corner twice, but um uh she began I believe quite a long time ago fighting in the

local New Jersey, New York scene. and uh

uh she's been in the UFC now for quite a while too. Um mostly fighting on on

while too. Um mostly fighting on on undercards, [music] but uh she's just been one of those very consistent performers who just worked and worked and worked. Um no one really took much

and worked. Um no one really took much notice for a long period of time and then suddenly she was fighting for a title. So she's had an impressive

title. So she's had an impressive career. What's that like to go I mean

career. What's that like to go I mean you've done this many times with George St. Pierre and Chris Weidman. What's

St. Pierre and Chris Weidman. What's

that whole process like when you go to the UFC event and you're in the back room in the corner? Are there

butterflies? Do you get used to it? Do

you have a process?

>> Yeah. For the coaches, there's not really much in the way of butterflies since we're not the ones in danger. Um

uh how how the athletes react to it is very very different. And uh you see every extreme from some people who look like they're going for a walk in the park to other people who look like

they're getting ready for, you know, um the a fight to the death. Um uh Caitlyn is very much the more relaxed, laid-back approach, uh which is one that I

personally favor a lot. I I prefer to see athletes treat uh even the most extreme forms of competition in the most

laidback way possible. Um I often talk to my athletes about the idea that the the ideal is for them to go out into the biggest fight of their life feeling like

it's nothing more than another day of sparring in the gym. So there's nothing exceptional about it. Um when you look about when you look at a professional athlete going into a fight, there's

there's really there's the athlete gets pulled in different directions by different people. The promoters of the

different people. The promoters of the event want the athlete to go out thinking this is literally the biggest event of their lives. Like this is

something super normal which is going to define who they are for the rest of their lives. That's what that's the

their lives. That's what that's the atmosphere they want >> because they think that will get the best.

>> Yeah. that that's going to get people pumped up full of adrenaline who they're going to come out and bam first right you know early knockouts early submissions. Um what what the promoters

submissions. Um what what the promoters are looking for >> are those precious and very elusive what the [ __ ] moments where the audience just

looks out and goes like what the [ __ ] just happened like something crazy just happened but they'll never forget for the rest of their lives. Yeah,

[clears throat] that's what they want, >> right?

>> And they want the trash talking hopefully before.

>> Yeah. That just builds it up and makes it even better.

>> Um, uh, so they're looking for a spectator event, but what's the athlete looking for?

>> Victory.

>> Yeah.

>> Okay. So, one guy wants a spectacle, the other guy just wants victory. Now,

victory can come in all many different guyses, but the safest ones are the lowest risk methods. So the athlete looks for the lowest risk method of victory whereas the promoter wants the

highest risk and so they get pulled in two different directions between what the promoter wants on the one hand and what the athlete wants on the other. Now

of course the coaches go with the athlete. Um and so somewhere in the

athlete. Um and so somewhere in the middle you find the compromise that uh which actually works out. And my my thing as as a coach is always to

downplay the situation to get athletes thinking you there's nothing exceptional about this. This is just another day at

about this. This is just another day at the office for you. Uh the only difference is there's some silly lights and some people in an audience watching you that you don't even know and you won't even see once the lights go on. Um

uh it's just a cage just like the one in the gym. Same dimensions. There's a

the gym. Same dimensions. There's a

person across the cage who you probably haven't fought before in most cases. Um

but all the movements, all the uh the techniques, the strategy will be identical to what you do in the gym. So

you get this this divergent uh uh path between what the promoter wants where this is something completely abnormal, something exceptional versus what the athlete and the coaching staff push for.

This is completely normal. This is what you do every day. And that's the split.

>> And there's tension usually between those two and you have to just write it out.

>> All right. So you're there to keep the athlete calm and make sure they focus on the win.

>> In most cases, there are a few athletes who do better psychologically with that idea [snorts] that this is something different and they uh they want to rise to a to a different kind of occasion.

But I think most people uh perform best when they're at their calmst and most relaxed. Um think about something you do

relaxed. Um think about something you do every day, driving a car. Do you drive better when your heart is pounding and you're nervous? I don't think most of us

you're nervous? I don't think most of us do. Most of us do our best work when

do. Most of us do our best work when we're pretty relaxed and pretty calm and and we feel we're doing the same thing that we do every day. Um uh stress is a

it's a it's a very very interesting phenomenon. Uh

phenomenon. Uh there's some ways in which stress physiological stress can improve performance and there's many ways in which it can detract from performance.

Uh it's this double-edged sword which can uh it can do great great things for us and it can do great damage for uh to us. And um trying to find that that

us. And um trying to find that that right path between being too relaxed for a fight where you're just not effective versus too amped up and becoming clumsy

uh short of breath um uh lacking dexterity in your movements uh getting tunnel vision. These are all problems

tunnel vision. These are all problems that athletes have to deal with. And

somewhere you've got to find the the right compromise between physical excitement and alertness and uh uh the destructive side of of uh getting too

hyped up for a fight where you get into adrenaline dumps and and tunnel vision etc. >> Can you condition your fighters for those experiences or is it very hard?

>> Uh I think the the best thing is is just experience. You know, you try to get

experience. You know, you try to get them in there and doing the right thing every time. There are some things you

every time. There are some things you can do for less experienced fighters uh in terms of building uh small routines that they go through in the training gym

every time they go out to train and then taking those same routines and employing them before they go out to fight. So for

example, they might go through um a simple set of routines on how they tie up their gloves, how they how they put on gloves, how they put on their their

outfit. um uh jokes and laughter that we

outfit. um uh jokes and laughter that we run through in the gym and and running over them again before they go out to fight. Small psychological cues that

fight. Small psychological cues that create a routine in one place which is familiar and taking those same routines and employing them in another place which is unfamiliar so that you take the

familiarity of the gym and take it to a new area and hopefully calm the person down in that way.

>> What about visualization? Um I think uh visualization is a very vague term. It

tends to get thrown around like it's an antidote to all problems. Um uh to be honest once I've always found once the the referee tells you to to go forward

and fight all the more esoteric elements of you know visualization, meditation and all these things tend to go out the window. Uh it's much more about your

window. Uh it's much more about your physical training preparation. That's

what's going to give you the ability to to uh proceed in a a satisfactory fashion once the action starts.

>> Okay. Your Instagram uh description said living in the spirit of kaizen >> and I was wondering why you have that up there and is that something you always thought about?

>> Yes. Um I'm a huge believer in the idea of small progressive movements towards goals. If you look at the course of an

goals. If you look at the course of an average day that we all go through, every so often, maybe two or three times in your life, there's one day which changes the direction of your life. But

the vast majority of our days are unexceptional. They're just a boring

unexceptional. They're just a boring mundane mundane day. You come home at the end of the day and if someone asked you what happened today, you would literally have to think back and be

like, I I'm not sure. um that's probably a description of 95% of our days. So

there's a chance in which you could drift through your life where only about 1 to 5% of your days have any real meaning and that 95% of your life was a

waste of time and that's a tragedy.

So we have to be very very set on this idea that we have to maximize the use of all of our days if we're going to amount to anything in

life. And that means at the end of every

life. And that means at the end of every day there has to be a concerted look on your part. What was the most significant thing that happened to me

today and how will it influence my life tomorrow? And if we can do this, your

tomorrow? And if we can do this, your days become progressive.

Most people live daytoday where the events of yesterday have no bearing on the events of today and the events of today have no bearing on the events of

tomorrow. And this means your life will

tomorrow. And this means your life will simply run in a flatline until the day you die.

But if we make a concerted effort to build one day upon another, even if it's just a very small thing, and in most cases it will be a small thing. It's

rare that we have a day where something monumental happens. Most days are not

monumental happens. Most days are not monumental. They're mundane. So on every

monumental. They're mundane. So on every one of these mundane days, we have to take one small little gem that happened.

It may not be very big, something small.

And add that to your performance tomorrow. And if we can do this over 10

tomorrow. And if we can do this over 10 years, something truly remarkable can happen. Um, it's so easy just to let a

happen. Um, it's so easy just to let a day go and then say, "I'll try again tomorrow."

tomorrow." But until we get a sense of one day building upon another towards a goal, you'll never achieve anything. You'll

just melt on and 10 years will go by and you'll look back and say, "What do I do?

And what did I do?" And there may not be anything significant behind you. So be

intentional about doing something that's going to make your life better. Yeah.

And that the whole notion of kaizen is just this crystallizes this idea that if I can improve my performance in any given area of my life by a even a very

small percentage point and then add day by day you get this compounding interest effect where at the end of 5 years something quite remarkable may have happened. You may have literally

happened. You may have literally reinvented yourself in 5 years. you may

have an entirely new skill set which you didn't have previously. Um, and so it's up to us to uh to do this because the natural tendency is for days just to run

into each other until by the end of the week you're looking back and say what happened this week? I don't know like it just gone. It's so easy to let that

just gone. It's so easy to let that happen. There's so many distractions in

happen. There's so many distractions in life. there's so many things looking to

life. there's so many things looking to grab your attention that you can lose a day, a week, a month, and even a year, even a decade. Um, uh, and it's up to us

to to ask, okay, well, what was significant? And how is it going to be

significant? And how is it going to be built into my life tomorrow? And how

does this relate to the goals that I have? And if you can do [clears throat]

have? And if you can do [clears throat] this, this is the the basic idea behind Kaizen. And um uh you can you can do

Kaizen. And um uh you can you can do remarkable things and you can reinvent yourself many times over the period of your life. Uh it's my belief that it

your life. Uh it's my belief that it takes around 5 years of full-time training to develop worldclass skills and most athletic endeavors. There are

many many examples of people beginning training and uh somewhere between 5 to seven years after the onset of their

training competing at the highest levels of their given sport and getting within the top five athletes in in the world.

There are many many examples of this. Um

that's a clear signal that it takes around 5 to seven years of full-time training to get to world class level in sports. Um uh

sports. Um uh with you could extend that into other areas of life. You can become in the same time it takes you to win an Olympic

uh bronze medal, you could have become an outstanding day trader. Um so we you know think about it 5 years is not a long time. That means we all have within

long time. That means we all have within us this ability to reinvent ourselves many times in the course of our life. If

you start off at, you know, 20 years old, there's a lot of opportunities for you to to change and adapt over the course of your life >> if you're intentional every day.

>> Does that mean getting uncomfortable or doing something fearful? Um I you know to be honest I uh I'm not going to say these things are not don't have value

but there's not really a need to to you know go out there and do things that you know you're terrified of or most of it works on a pretty mundane level where you just identify goals and you say okay

what is required for me to get to those goals. Um, I very much try in the

goals. Um, I very much try in the training room to take the terror out of combat sports. Like when you think about

combat sports. Like when you think about it, combat sports are a crazy thing. You

know, you you're we're in the business of strangling people and breaking limbs.

Okay. Now, on the face of that's a horrible thing. Um uh but when you just

horrible thing. Um uh but when you just break it down and dissect skills into manageable

um uh components and train them at a level where nothing overwhelms you, you can get really good in a comparatively short period of time. And at no point

were you ever thinking, "My god, this is terrifying." You know, it's just it's

terrifying." You know, it's just it's just mundane daily training. Um, uh, the the the focus of my coaching is to make something which most people would find

pretty scary, a guy on top of you squeezing your neck, uh, and make it fairly mundane, uh, is to take the scariness and the terror out of the equation rather than to put it in. And

that's kind of a fundamental of Brazilian jiu-jitsu. And we'll get into

Brazilian jiu-jitsu. And we'll get into that through its practices. You know,

you write these, um, posts on Instagram, which is kind of embodying a lot of the philosophy you just talked about. Now,

are you surprised by how voraciously these things are are read and and consumed by people out there? Because I

think a lot of the men and women in the sport, you know, they've never heard someone talk about the philosophy of it the same way you have.

>> Um, from what I understand in the comments section, I put a lot of people to sleep. So,

to sleep. So, >> I don't know about that.

>> Um, I [laughter] don't know how ferociously they read, but um, uh, I'm I'm uh I'm always very grateful that people are interested in what we do. We

do have a slightly different approach to teaching the sport and um uh I'm always very grateful that people are interested and that they follow what my athletes do and say this is an effective way of of

playing the game.

>> And when you get uh put on, you know, major television shows like Billions, do you just take that with a grain of salt as well?

>> That was just a like a comedy to me. I'm

I'm [laughter] the worst actor in the entire universe. So for me to to work

entire universe. So for me to to work next to those guys is just amusing. But

these are signs that you're being appreciated and your work is being appreciated.

>> Thank you. That's nice of you to say.

>> So, I'll tell you a little bit about myself. In 2001, I had a a horrible year

myself. In 2001, I had a a horrible year in New York City after kind of eight years in and out of this city. Um,

>> in what sense was it horrible?

Professionally or personally?

>> Everything. Um, I found that I wasn't ready for this city. And my vices got the best of me. So, my kind of alcoholism worked its way into a drug

habit, into a heroin overdose, uh, into my girlfriend leaving me and my best friend from MIT firing me from the company that he had hired me for. Then,

uh, 9/11 happened and it was probably one of the worst years of my life.

>> Were you personally affected by 9/11?

>> I knew a couple people had that died in the top floors.

>> Yeah, I was going to say you're in the financial I was in the com space kind of at the time, so I was out of there. Um,

but it was just the whole malaise of the place was just this real dark hole. And

so I went to London to get the hell out of Dodge and it ended up being a great thing. But what why did you choose

thing. But what why did you choose London?

>> Well, I had actually spent two years there earlier in the financial markets and so it was the only place I knew that I might be able to get a job and I just thought I can't be in this city anymore and I I've got to go somewhere. Now, a

lot of guys in AA will say you can't run away from a problem. But for me, it actually worked. And I started kind of

actually worked. And I started kind of my recovery on January 2nd, 2002. And

one of my good friends from New York City called me in June and said, "Brian, you should try Brazilian jiu-jitsu." And

I had never done martial arts before.

Actually, actually had wrestled one year in high school. Um, and gone from a nerdy kid.

>> How did you react to wrestling in high school?

>> Oh my god. I mean,

>> did you like it?

>> I lost every single match, but I liked something I liked about it. Maybe it was the challenge, but being dominated by another person was it. Well, I guess I got more comfortable with it, but it's a

very shocking thing to feel. I remember

there was someone that was doing I think they call it a Saturday night ride in in [snorts] wrestling where I was at some school and their territory and a guy is locked on top of you, right? You know

what I'm talking about.

>> It's the most embarrassing thing that can happen.

>> Oh my gosh. And uh I just couldn't win in competition. I didn't have the

in competition. I didn't have the mindset and I was a science geek before that. And I went from this skinny guy to

that. And I went from this skinny guy to I got kind of big. And that was my experience. And so when this guy called

experience. And so when this guy called me up and said, "You got to try jiu-jitsu." I I Googled it in London.

jiu-jitsu." I I Googled it in London.

Google I think was barely around. And I

found I found someone uh who had trained with Haj Gracie in the past. And uh we started training without a ghee. And uh

>> now uh not only did you start training with uh the greatest jiu-jitsu player of all time, but given the timeline you started when Hodger started cuz Hodger had only just left for London at that time,

>> right?

>> So you not only did you train with uh Hodger Gracie, but you were probably one of his first students at that point.

>> Yeah. Well, I trained with with someone who I actually actually helped him set up build the studio, I think, there. We

traded a gym called the third space which I think Mauricio his father used to train there.

>> His father had been there before before >> HJ and so I was training there. Um and I found a South African guy who knew him and we just >> there's always a South African guy in London. There's always a Kiwi in

London. There's always a Kiwi in Australia and a South African guy. You

can just guarantee it. London is never changes.

>> Oh, it's so true. And you know it it completely transformed my life. You know

I was trying to get my life together. I

was coming off the drugs but I didn't have anything to focus on. I didn't have a way to get my body. Do you mind if I ask you? Did your drugs follow you from

ask you? Did your drugs follow you from New York to London or you >> they they strangely didn't. And it

doesn't make sense, especially for an opiate like heroin. People say that can't happen. But I I think

can't happen. But I I think >> things had fallen so low in my life that I got a message on a deep subconscious level that if you continue this, you will have nothing because everyone I was

ever close to didn't want anything to do with me. And I always say it was the

with me. And I always say it was the right decision because you can't follow someone down that hole. And they

actually in some ways saved my life by giving me that message of it's not okay with your behavior. Other girlfriend's

going to leave me. My best friend's going to sack me. And you know, I was my body was shutting down. So I stopped doing the drugs there, but I needed something else. And uh jiu-jitsu became

something else. And uh jiu-jitsu became that. So I trained every week and I

that. So I trained every week and I stayed away from New York City for that whole year. And I came back at the end

whole year. And I came back at the end of 2002. And my buddy that told me about

of 2002. And my buddy that told me about jiu-jitsu said, "Brian, if you're coming back, then we're going to go train in my dojo." And he took me and we rolled, the

dojo." And he took me and we rolled, the three of us. And it was Dan Leanto. I

don't know if you know Dan and his brother.

>> The bald-headed I think Henzo used to call him the Aryan Brothers.

>> And so we went to the old Enzo Gracie place on 8th Avenue 36th, I think.

>> Oh yeah, that was that was one hell of a gig.

>> It was above the methanel clinic. The

locker room. There wasn't a locker room.

It was like >> you must have been freaking out because everyone there's a heroin addict >> around there. Yeah. I was a year out so I was okay. But uh it was crazy and I uh I remember we rolled I think you started

me from side control and you kept telling me to chill out. I think I was really tense and really nervous and so that was the first time I met you and it was Dan Leano who I think you gave us purple belt later that actually got me

to do this and I went on and trained for eight more years of my life and got into tai boxing and all sorts of other things. So

things. So >> that's an amazing story.

>> It is. So, in some way, you actually helped me recover unbeknownst to you.

Um, you [laughter] know, so thank you for that.

>> My pleasure.

>> Uh, you know, Dan was obviously really smitten with you and him and Rob and you just >> They were amazing kids. I love those kids. Yeah.

kids. Yeah.

>> The hardcore. So, what was the scene like back in O2? Because there was no glamour. There was no Hollywood

glamour. There was no Hollywood television shows.

>> Yeah. Yeah. It it goes back um further than that. Uh my teacher Henzo Gracie

than that. Uh my teacher Henzo Gracie came to um uh America in 199596

and you got to remember that um outside of people pretty heavily involved in martial arts, no one knew what jiu-jitsu was. Like uh I grew up in in New

was. Like uh I grew up in in New Zealand. Um uh I I I did martial arts as

Zealand. Um uh I I I did martial arts as a as a teenager. Loved it.

>> What kind of martial arts?

>> Um all striking martial arts, mostly boxing and Muay Thai. Okay.

>> And um uh you know the the idea that grappling could be an effective fighting style was just not even a consideration. It

uh I we didn't even have wrestling in New Zealand. And um uh wrestling was

New Zealand. And um uh wrestling was something I would see every four years of the Olympics. And people look at that, what the hell are these guys doing? That's just gay as hell.

doing? That's just gay as hell.

>> Singlets.

>> Yeah. Like this is crazy. And just turn the channel. wait till a real sport came

the channel. wait till a real sport came on like the Kathine or something like that and um >> also it's also not manly to fight down that way.

>> It was all stand if someone went down and they stood up and you fought again.

>> Very Queensberry.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And uh it was all marquee of Queensbury and um >> you know there was judo but judo was not a strong martial art in New Zealand at

all. And uh it was always seen as like a

all. And uh it was always seen as like a a sport that wouldn't work in a fight.

You you know judo guy grabbed you just knock him out. be easy. And uh so there was this very dismissive attitude that ran not just in New Zealand but I believe across pretty much most of the world that that when it came to fighting

it was all about striking. Like um when I grew up in the 80s there was no doubt whatsoever that the greatest fighter in the world was Mike Tyson. Okay. When

someone asked you who's the best fighter in the world, >> easy Mike Tyson because he was a striker. Um, uh, if someone had told you

striker. Um, uh, if someone had told you that there were a group of dudes living in Brazil somewhere who would have a pretty good chance of of beating him and in a way which might be kind of

embarrassing for even Mike Tyson, you would have just laughed. Yeah. Were

they going to tackle him, hold him down?

Are you kidding me? I would have laughed at you. And um, uh, when I first came to

at you. And um, uh, when I first came to America working as a bouncer, uh, I started working with wrestlers and judo players. Uh they weren't all restless in

players. Uh they weren't all restless in Judaiz but some of them were and I noticed very quickly that they were extremely effective in fighting and this was a big shock to me. I said man these guys are good they control the situation.

>> Absolutely. We had to you know hit people and the cops would come in people would be bleeding and you know my hands be busted. I had to go and teach at

be busted. I had to go and teach at Columbia with broken hands. It's crazy.

So um >> why were you working door? Was this the adventurous side of [laughter] >> I I had a full financial scholarship when I when I arrived at Colombia and I

think I blew it on booze and women in like um two weeks. So uh there was time for me to get a job. One night I was working down Amsterdam Avenue and I saw an older gentleman being beaten quite

soundly by a much younger, larger, more aggressive young guy. And I thought to myself, this is terrible. Like no one's helping this guy. and this big thug,

young thug is is manhandling this older gentleman. So I ran up, I grabbed the

gentleman. So I ran up, I grabbed the young guy and picked him up and uh threw him down the street and shoved him down towards uh down the avenue. And I came back and the old guy gets up and thanks

me. He goes, "Who are you?" And I said,

me. He goes, "Who are you?" And I said, "I'm I'm John from New Zealand." And he goes, "You want a job?" And I go, "Uh, sure." And he goes, "Why don't you work

sure." And he goes, "Why don't you work at my nightclub?" He was the owner of the club and he had, unbeknownst to me, he was a complete douchebag who fully deserved the beating he got from the

young guy. But I didn't find that out

young guy. But I didn't find that out until later. But um uh uh I ended up

until later. But um uh uh I ended up working and then you meet other bouncers. They see you do work and they

bouncers. They see you do work and they say, "Hey, come work at this club." And

before you know it, I was working all over Manhattan. And um

over Manhattan. And um >> Did you enjoy it as well?

>> Oh, yeah. Yeah, of course. I I never do anything that I don't enjoy. If

something's unenjoyable, don't do it.

Life is short. Life is fragile. Don't

ruin your life doing things you don't enjoy. And um I loved philosophy. Um

enjoy. And um I loved philosophy. Um

nightclub work was an adventure for me.

Uh sometimes a scary adventure, but always an adventure.

>> And um >> would you test yourself mentally in those situations?

>> It's not even question of mentally. It's

always physical.

>> Physical.

>> People tend to um look upon the mentality.

Most altercations are purely physical and um uh physical solutions for physical problems. >> And the girls love the bouncers. And

you're sober at the end of the night.

Makes [laughter] it easy. Am I giving away all the trade secrets?

>> That's what I've heard.

>> My uh let's just say that the people I work with did much better in that regard than I did. I I was never the uh the Playboy type, but I had some guys I worked with who were legends. And um uh

but yeah, it was a fun adventure. I

enjoyed And so you started noticing that this there was something to these standup grappling guys. They were very very effective. And um uh it was

very effective. And um uh it was shocking to me. I because you know I'd always thought these people would be the the least effective people in fighting.

They turned out they were the most effective. Not only were they the most

effective. Not only were they the most effective, they were most effective in ways that I couldn't even comprehend.

They could hold and control people as opposed to just knock them out. You

know, when when you striking, there's no gentle knockouts. You know, there there

gentle knockouts. You know, there there are more gentle knockouts, but there's no gentle knockout. you've got to you've got to summon up a certain amount of kinetic energy to to put someone to sleep. Whereas these guys could just

sleep. Whereas these guys could just hold people, immobilize them, they could pin them, and in extreme cases they could just pick them up and drop them on on their head and do severe damage, much more damage than I could ever do with a

punch or a kick.

>> Uh so it's to me this was fascinating.

So, um, uh, after work, I would always bug them with questions, you know, like, "Show me this that that that take down thing you do and and they would show me stuff." But of course, that's not a real

stuff." But of course, that's not a real way to to learn and and, um, understand.

You you get tricks, but you don't get training. There's a big difference. Um

training. There's a big difference. Um

and then coincidentally uh about that time a friend of mine at Columbia University who was also a graduate student also in the PhD program and he he finished the PhD program now he's a

very successful um uh lecturer down in uh in Australia. Um he

said John you know uh I know you work at night as a bouncer like I've started doing this martial art it's called Brazilian jiu-jitsu. It's a grappling

Brazilian jiu-jitsu. It's a grappling style. And I was like, Brazilian

style. And I was like, Brazilian jiu-jitsu? Like that doesn't even make

jiu-jitsu? Like that doesn't even make sense. Like jiu-jitsu is Japanese. Like

sense. Like jiu-jitsu is Japanese. Like

Brazilian jiu-jitsu? And he goes, "Yeah, it's it's like wrestling, but instead of pinning people, you get them in these things called submission holes." And I

was like, "Hm, interesting."

Um, that night I went to work and a bouncer I was working with started talking about this thing called a UFC and he said, "There's these crazy Brazilian wrestlers

who win everything. They're just

killers. They look like nothing but they're killers."

they're killers." >> And I thought twice in one day I've heard about this. Maybe this is a sign.

>> And you hadn't been watching the UFC?

>> No. They've been around for maybe a couple years.

>> They've been around for a while. So it

was all video tapes.

>> Yes. You had old VHS tapes in those days. So this guy comes in, puts on a

days. So this guy comes in, puts on a VHS tape, and I see this skinny dude in a ghee just wrecking people, tackling them, holding them on the ground, strangling. I'm just like, are you

strangling. I'm just like, are you kidding me?

>> Did you believe it even?

>> Yeah. I was like, I mean, there's you can tell when a flight's fake, you know? This is not fake. This these guys are going. You see

fake. This these guys are going. You see

like, you know, they're hit and then blood come in. That's not fake. You

can't fake that way. And um so I'm saying, damn, this is good. These guys

are and and and what I was seeing in the cage was so similar to what you would see in nightclub fighting. An initial

closing of distance, an impact, a clinch, a fall, and one guy on top, one guy on bottom. Normally in a street fight, guy on top invariably wins. But

here in the in the cage, these guys were falling on bottom and still winning. And

to me, this was just fascinating. Um,

so when my friend at Colombia uh came in the the next day, I had my office hours and I just finished office hours and we're in the old philosophy

hall um uh upstairs on on the seventh floor and he goes like, you know, uh I've been training now 2 weeks now. He

was a small man, 140 lb at the time. I

was around 220 lbs and >> that's big and uh that's a big size difference and you know he had literally never been in a fight in his life and I

had been bouncing for many years in New Zealand and the United States and I've been in a lot of fights. Um,

and he goes like, you know, uh, we we start down on the ground and the the main grappling move that I had from the judo and wrestling players that

I worked with was a uh, essentially a sag headlock throw into a kzakatame type hold on the ground. That was what I I used to use. And um, yeah. And just

crank up and they couldn't breathe and they would people would give up and quit. Um, so I put him in my best KZ

quit. Um, so I put him in my best KZ guitar kit and I held him down with all my might and we're on the the wooden floor in in the philosophy department office with [laughter] people walking

past crazy people there.

>> I'm pretty sure that's not what they the founders of that university envisioned for their uh their future students. Um,

but I held him down as best I could and and as I was holding him, he started slipping around behind me. He started

getting a foot inside and I didn't know the first thing about grappling, but I could feel this was not good. This guy

was going to to my back. Everyone knows

that's not a good thing in a fight. Guy

getting behind you. And uh after about two minutes, my arms were getting tired.

I was holding this guy and grunting and doing my best and I was unable to control him when suddenly his head popped out like a champagne cork and he just slipped around behind me and I had to scramble back up to my feet and get

away from him. And then as I got up, I thought like this shouldn't be happening. I'm twice

this guy's size. I'm twice as strong as him. I'm tired and he's fine. And if we

him. I'm tired and he's fine. And if we had to fight a second time, who's to say he wouldn't get behind me and and and strangle me next time. Um, and that was

it. I was like, "Dude, I've got to two

it. I was like, "Dude, I've got to two weeks. You've been training two weeks

weeks. You've been training two weeks and you would have you did just fine against a guy twice your size and strength. I have to learn this." So, um,

strength. I have to learn this." So, um, I went down and, uh, did my first class.

And my first class is probably pretty much the same as your first class, too.

I got strangled and arm locked by everybody in the room. And I came out thinking like I'm going to have to learn this to some degree. I can't go through life being completely ignorant of what

is happening here. I have to I didn't say I want to be good at this, but I have I have to be competent at it. And

um >> was that Henzo's that first class?

>> Uh no. Henso had an assistant uh called Craig Kukak in those days who uh was the first teacher. And then Henzo came, they

first teacher. And then Henzo came, they worked together for a period of time, then they went their separate ways. Um,

but uh uh in those early days, there were some people that you would recognize. Matt Sarah was a blue belt

recognize. Matt Sarah was a blue belt back then.

>> Um uh I think there were only two purple belts in the whole east coast of the United States.

>> Um Matt was there. Uh there's some other people you probably wouldn't remember, but those were early early days. And um

uh to even you know you just didn't see a black belt in those days. It just they were like unicorns and uh a purple belt

was considered to be like a god like a god on the mat. A blue belt was like a serious force like a demigod and we were all white belts and um uh so I started

learning and uh it was a fascinating sport. My first ambitions were just to

sport. My first ambitions were just to get competent at the sport and help me for bouncing. And I must say, um, you'll

for bouncing. And I must say, um, you'll often hear people criticize jiu-jitsu as unrealistic for street fighting and they'll say, "Oh, it's, you know, you can't use that in a fight." Let me tell

you, that's [ __ ] Jiu-jitsu was extremely effective in street fighting.

It made my life as a bouncer massively easier than it was before. your go-to

moves, guillotines, and [laughter] >> anything that got me behind people and quickly on the ground. And u uh of course strangle holds are the the number one method of if someone if if things got completely out of hand, you would

strangle them. Um

strangle them. Um >> uh and I must say I had many people come back to clubs that I worked in days or weeks later and say like, "Hey, I'm I'm really thankful that you know, you

choked me out and you didn't hit me.

Like my face is fine. I acted like an asshole." like thank you for being nice

asshole." like thank you for being nice and it gave you even the most extreme of circumstances where people were completely out of hand. Uh a strangle hold is like an off switch for human

beings and it just completely pacified the situation. Um of course in most

the situation. Um of course in most situations you didn't have to strangle people, you just pin them or immobilize them and most people don't really want to fight that badly. Uh there were exceptions to that. There are certain

kinds of crowds that you can work in a club which have a much higher propensity towards violence. Um but you know your

towards violence. Um but you know your your average Joe is really looking to blow off some steam in a fight and you don't have to go all the way to strangling them unconscious but there are a few cases where this has to be

done and the result is bloodless. You

know, even someone who's who uh under normal circumstances would probably be severely beaten by bouncers can just be completely pacified with a strangle hold and the situation taken down and made

manageable.

>> So yeah, jiu-jitsu was a remarkable uh remarkably effective thing. Um

>> so you were hooked.

>> Yeah, absolutely. Uh but still hooked in a very superficial way. Okay. It was

something which is >> made my life much easier. Um but my ambition in life was still to be uh a university professor who happened to be a bouncer during his graduate school

years. So I just saw jiu-jitsu as like

years. So I just saw jiu-jitsu as like this fascinating fun activity that made my life significantly easier. Uh and

that started to change when um a number of factors came in. first uh hins of Gracie wanted to write a book on jiu-jitsu and uh I think at the time

this is around 1998 1999 I think I was like either a blue or purple belt I can't remember which and um uh hence I said you know I want to write a book on

jiu-jitsu John can you write it for me and I was like dude I'm a blue bell yeah how am I going to write a book about jiu-jitsu and he said well you you know >> you're the only guy in college

>> yeah he goes you're the only one that can Right. So like, okay. So Henzo uh

can Right. So like, okay. So Henzo uh said, "Come to come come to class more and I'll teach you more." So I would come down to class much more often. As

soon as I was done teaching at Columbia, I'd come down. Then I would have to go out and bounce at night and until 4:00 in the morning and then go and teach at Columbia. It's like this crazy cycle.

Columbia. It's like this crazy cycle.

>> Wow.

>> And um uh Henzo really took me under his wing. And he's a superb teacher by the

wing. And he's a superb teacher by the way. He never gets credit for his

way. He never gets credit for his teaching ability. People see Henzo as a

teaching ability. People see Henzo as a very charismatic guy. He's a damn good teacher. Damn good.

teacher. Damn good.

>> How would you describe Henzo?

>> Um, one of the most affable, charismatic human beings I ever met. He, if Henzo wanted to be a politician, he would have he would have won every election, he was ever ruined by a freaking landslide. Um,

>> and came for a fight to [laughter] put it on the line in the street and in the ring. [clears throat]

ring. [clears throat] >> That too. Yeah.

>> Which is incredible combination.

>> Yeah. You don't see that very often like fighter and charismatic leader. You

don't that's a very very rare combination. um

combination. um >> and fought prime fighting champions and >> yeah he fought always way above his weight like crazy like he should have been fighting 145 his whole career that's his actual weight but he always

fought like you know like middleweight crazy but um >> and he's a good teacher as well >> very good and uh so he did a fine job of of saying okay John here's what you need to know and um

>> because the classic Brazilian jiu-jitsu teaching isn't always highly regarded like I went down to Gracie Baja in Rio and it's like You run around the mat, I'm gonna show you a move, go spar. I

mean, it's not known for a specific curriculum, which I know later, >> you know, changed with what you were doing in, you know, California.

>> Definitely.

>> It's definitely an issue. Yeah.

>> Was that kind of [snorts] a decent way to describe the way >> it was the the methodologies of teaching are pretty primitive.

>> The transfer of knowledge wasn't the best, >> especially in those days, >> right? The knowledge itself was

>> right? The knowledge itself was incredible, but only held probably by some very high level blacks.

>> Yeah. And uh the assumption in most schools was that the people who were very good got special attention and everyone else just came in and learned a move a day. And um and you know for most

people that's fine. You know, you learn a move a day, you do that for a year, you'll beat any regular Joe in a fight.

No questions asked. Kaizen and a small scale Kaizen.

>> And um uh so uh I started learning a lot more and I began writing. I I I wrote Henzo's original book basically in nightclubs. I'd be bouncing all night

nightclubs. I'd be bouncing all night and I would have pen and pad with me in between fighting people writing ideas and then I would transcribe them on a on

a typewriter on a typewriter >> and um uh and then send uh completed documents to California

where the editors would start to put together the book. Um

so so my knowledge was starting to increase about this time and my interest started to increase and uh a short time

after that uh hens started saying listen John uh I'm I'm fighting a lot and uh my students Matt Sarah Hicardo Ma and

Hodrigo Gracie are leaving they're going to open their own schools you're going to have to teach and I was like Uh I'm nowhere near as good as any one

of those three guys. They they were my they were the guys who taught me and uh they were all three of them were world champions. And um I was like ho I'm not

champions. And um I was like ho I'm not qualified to teach, man. And he's got you got to do it. There's no one else.

So >> could you say no to him at that point or not?

>> Oh yeah, of course you can always say no.

>> But I mean but but I wouldn't because he's a friend, you know. And um uh I was just like, "Wo, I get I bet I got to get

better." Like this is I I can't I I

better." Like this is I I can't I I would be so humiliated if if the quality of the school went from here to here on my watch. like you know people were used

my watch. like you know people were used to like you know Matt Sarah he's a legend like Hicardo Ma Rodrigo Gracie like these are at that time they were

winning ADCC they were the best there was and I was imagine if the school that I was a part of just dropped in quality

because now oh yeah Dan is teaching like great and um so I was I got to get better at this and um uh so I I Uh I was

thinking to myself, you know, where do you want to go with this? And uh I had pretty much finished my PhD um uh

requirements. I was getting very close

requirements. I was getting very close to finishing the PhD. And part of me is like, you know, do you want to go the academic route? Like what does that

academic route? Like what does that entail? Okay, I defend my dissertation.

entail? Okay, I defend my dissertation.

Then I'm probably going to have to go to some small college somewhere in the Midwest of the United States, live a boring life for 20 years, scr up enough

money through grants to live a life, and then hope that maybe when I'm 40, 45, write enough journals that maybe I can get accepted to a good university in a

nice place. And and then when I'm 50,

nice place. And and then when I'm 50, teach it in a cool school. And I'm

thinking, I don't want to live that life. I you know there's got to be a

life. I you know there's got to be a better way to live your life >> but that means walking away from philosophy as a life or well >> I asked myself what do I what do you really love and I said I I loved

philosophy but I didn't love academia and around that time the whole kind of political correctness movement was getting strong in university and I never gelled with that it wasn't my thing and um

>> why not >> uh I it cuts a little too close to talk about publicly but it And um uh I was

saying I don't want to live my life in a institution where you could see the trend and academia was going

that way and uh I was on the early end of political correctness and didn't like it and the idea of just staying silent listening to people say things that I

vehemently disagreed with and having to keep quiet while for the sake of not ruffling feathers and keeping your job and getting tenure and didn't appeal to

me. And I love the the hurly burly

me. And I love the the hurly burly freedom of of jiu-jitsu. Like it was a school where people say whatever the [ __ ] they want. And um uh

the only thing you were measured by was merit. It was just how good were you on

merit. It was just how good were you on the mat and you could be have every kind of defect. But if you were good on the

of defect. But if you were good on the mat, you could be forgi, you know, forgiven. And um uh the bonds of

forgiven. And um uh the bonds of friendship there were much more real and genuine than they were in in the academic lifestyle. And uh uh then the

academic lifestyle. And uh uh then the deciding factor was around that time um uh a young Canadian came in to train.

His name was George St. Pierre and he didn't speak much English at that time and uh came in and he started doing a few introductory classes that I was

teaching. And uh one day he said like

teaching. And uh one day he said like you know I'm I'm fighting in these local competitions in Canada. He showed me some videotape VHS of his fights and I

was like this kid's really doing some amazing work. Like

amazing work. Like now you must understand that MMA was changing around this time. When when I first started jiu-jitsu was the king of

mixed martial arts. It wasn't even called MMA. It was called Valudo or NHB.

called MMA. It was called Valudo or NHB.

And um uh jiu-jitsu was the undisputed king.

>> Yeah. Dominated all the UFC. Yeah.

Absolutely. Like like I remember, you know, around the early UFC's you could tell who would win by the introductions.

Whenever they said grappler, you're like, he's going to win.

>> And if it was two grapplers, then you always knew it was a jiu-jitsu guy. And

uh and if you guessed along those lines, you'd be right in like 95% of cases.

So things started to change when um the skills of grappling got more widely disseminated and then suddenly striking became more important and in particular

um uh American wrestlers started coming in in large numbers and they had learned enough jiu-jitsu to shut down jiu-jitsu >> and uh and control where the fight took

place. And um then kickboxers started to

place. And um then kickboxers started to learn enough takedown defense and enough submission defense that they could bring the techniques of kickboxing in. And so

you had these weird cycles where jiu-jitsu started as as king and then went down. Uh wrestling came in became

went down. Uh wrestling came in became king and then kickboxing came in and became king. And

there were these cycles of of which martial art is best. But all that was leading towards this idea that the real truth wasn't that any one martial art

was king, but rather that the skills of of uh of all the martial arts synthesized would be king and that there would be a day in the future where we really stopped talking about style

versus style and started talking about athlete versus athlete. And I remember looking at this V VHS of George St.

Pierre and saying that's exactly what this kid is. this kid's the future.

Like, he's not a jiu-jitsu player. He's

not a wrestler. He's not a kickboxer.

He's the average of those three things.

And I remember just going home that night, working in a club, seeing like this kid's doing something really, really interesting.

He's he's the face of a new kind of martial art. Like, mixed martial arts is

martial art. Like, mixed martial arts is different from its components.

And something revolutionary is happening here.

>> What year is this roughly?

>> This is early 2000.

>> O2 or something.

>> Yeah, the book hadn't come out yet. That

was 03.

>> I know. Uh I believe it was published in 03 if I could be wrong about that, but I believe so.

>> To continue watching the rest of the episode for free, visit our website, londonreal.tv, or click the link in

londonreal.tv, or click the link in [music] the description below.

Heat. Heat.