The Most Effective Weight Training, Cardio & Nutrition for Women | Dr. Lauren Colenso-Semple

As a woman, if I honestly thought there were things we should do differently to optimize our results, of course, I would be doing them myself and telling other

women to do them, too. The narrative

that women need a sexspecific program or nutrient timing guidance or a

particular intensity of exercise or rep range or all of it.

It makes women feel like they're being spoken to and being considered and then they're part of this community instead of oh, you know, just do what your

boyfriend does or what your husband does or so the narrative is very much women are not men. And so obviously women need something different. The data says

something different. The data says men and women respond to exercise very similarly.

Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.

I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and opthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest

today is Dr. Lauren Kenzo Simple. She

holds a PhD in integrative physiology and is a certified strength and conditioning specialist. She is an

conditioning specialist. She is an expert in both the science and practice of building muscle and strength, cardiovascular fitness, and the relationship between hormones and exercise. Today's discussion is focused

exercise. Today's discussion is focused on fitness for women, and how it overlaps directly with the same things that men should do for their fitness.

Therefore, today's discussion is relevant to both women and men. Dr. Keno

Simple explains how to structure your ideal training routine according to the time you have available and your health and fitness goals. She also clearly explains what the science says about if

and when women's hormone cycles, life stages such as menopause, and things like birth control should actually impact how women should train and when.

As we all know, information about best practices for fitness, nutrition, and health are hotly debated online. Dr.

Kenzo Simple has become one of the most trusted voices for explaining what the science says about women's specific fitness as well as for delivering clear actionable evidence for protocols that

work in the real world. It was a true honor and pleasure to host her on the podcast. Before we begin, I'd like to

podcast. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is however part of my

Stanford. It is however part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme,

public. In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors.

And now for my discussion with Dr. Lauren Kenso, Simple. Dr. Lauren Kenzo Simple welcome.

>> Thank you.

>> Very excited to have you here. To kick

things off, is there anything fundamentally different about muscle tissue in men and women?

And if not at the cellular level in terms of the hormone receptors that they express or the hormones that they're exposed to in a way that should change

people's behavior about how to exercise >> when we look at how the muscle responds.

So we look at muscle protein synthesis in response to exercise or nutrition.

There are no differences. Very similar

protein metabolism response, very similar growth response. The major

difference and this is hormone related is that the baseline muscularity because during puberty when men experience a surge in testosterone that coincides

with an increase in muscle mass. So if

you take an untrained adult man and an untrained adult woman there will be a disparity in their baseline muscle mass and that is due to differences in

testosterone. However, once they start

testosterone. However, once they start training, they will gain similar relative size.

>> So, not that I'm suggesting uh people get into competitive bodybuilding and use steroids, although some people might make that their life choice. The vast

majority of people won't. But if we were to look at female bodybuilders at any point in the last 30 years or so, it's very clear that with chemical

augmentation, which is typically increasing testosterone or some testosterone like uh derivative, that women can achieve a very impressive

level of muscularity that in many ways rivals what certainly men who are not taking anabolic steroids can achieve.

What does that tell us? the fact that the addition of androgens, testosterone and testosterone like derivatives can take female musculature and make it look

essentially like male musculature. Does

that tell us anything interesting that informs the non-steroid user, the non-bodybuilder?

>> Not so much because we're talking about those suprahysiological levels and that's the real gamecher. So if we think about even with men what is the normal

range of testosterone we don't see this relationship between oh you know you're closer to 900 and you are going to respond better to resistance training.

So as long as you're within what that wide normal range there doesn't seem to be a predictability of your response to training. However, once we get into

training. However, once we get into those supraphysiological levels and we're taking that exogenous hormone, then yes, we are going to develop levels of muscularity that wouldn't necessarily

be possible.

>> You said something several things uh very interesting. Um if I understood

very interesting. Um if I understood correctly, if a male is somewhere in the reference range, so typically I believe that's somewhere between 300 NOGS per deciliter and 900 NOGS per deciliter.

Maybe in some countries it goes up to 1,200 but in any case that a male with 400 NOG per deciliter testosterone versus 600 it's not as if the male with

600 can make you know that much more muscle growth and the same is true for women.

>> That's right. Okay.

>> So as long as you're within that broad normal range and of course what's normal for you differs from what's normal for

someone else. So if there are uh changes

someone else. So if there are uh changes that might impact you because now you're below what is your normal then that can

manifest in in a variety of ways. But

there isn't this clear kind of linear relationship where we would say oh let's measure your testosterone you are going to be a hard gainer or you're going to

put on mass really easily. If we were to just look at people who are not chemically augmented in any way, not know their testosterone in any way, and here I'm referring to women specifically, how much individual

variation is there, or what's known about the individual variation among women in terms of the amount of potential to grow muscle and strength?

Is it true that some women have a much greater potential to build muscle mass uh that's independent of their testosterone levels? I'd say yes, it's

testosterone levels? I'd say yes, it's independent of the testosterone levels, but we're going to start with different baselines and then it depends on the

stimulus that you are using for growth.

And some people are adapting to that growth stimulus to a greater extent than others, but part of that is effective,

consistent, progressive training, and then part of it is arguably some genetic factors. But when we even look at the

factors. But when we even look at the molecular level, say fiber type differences, we see adaptation in both

sexes that is quite dramatic. And that

tells us that both men and women have the potential for large adaptations in either direction, whether we're saying, you know, to endurance type training or resistance type training.

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I want to put aside the use of exogenous uh testosterone therapy although we can return to that a little bit later because it seems to be a popular theme in women's health circles now especially

in the per perry menopause excuse me a menopause conversation but it's well known from studies uh I believe that were exclusively carried out in men that

training a certain way sprints resistance training and um we talk about exactly how can increase circulating testosterone grown in meaningful ways

that can feed back on psychology and can feed back on growth and strength development etc. Have the same studies been carried out in women? In other

words, if a woman lifts weights um in a certain manner for 45 minutes or 60 minutes, do we expect a big surge in her circulating levels of testosterone?

>> Well, the circulating levels are already quite low. And one of the issues here is

quite low. And one of the issues here is that the way testosterone has been measured in women for a very long time is such that the assays are not capable

of detecting some of these normal low levels. So we know a lot less about

levels. So we know a lot less about those lower kind of circulating levels of testosterone in women than I think

people acknowledge. But more

people acknowledge. But more importantly, that acute response to exercise, th that those that increase in um post exercise, testosterone, growth

hormone, etc., people used to think that was the driver of hypertrophy. And so

there were all of these training styles to sort of maximize that response. And

so people would uh promote high rep training or supersets and they'd say, "Oh, you know, this is going to really maximize that response." But what we

know now is that response, although acutely, it's not the driver of growth long term. And so it it doesn't really

long term. And so it it doesn't really make sense to chase that short-term response because it's not predictive of longer term adaptation. Until fairly

recently, women doing resistance training, especially heavy for them, you know, uh somewhere between 70 and 90% of a one

rep max or even a one rep max. So, heavy

for them was scary for a lot of women.

I've women in my family and they're like, I don't want to lift weights. I

don't want to I don't want to get too big. This is, you know, was a common

big. This is, you know, was a common statement. What do you think changed? I

statement. What do you think changed? I

think part of it was the introduction of the bikini category in competitive bodybuilding because that was a level of muscularity that people didn't look at

and say, "Oh, that's bulky." That was, "Oh, she looks good in a bikini." And

so, people wanted to look like that, realized that they needed to lift weights to do it. And it kind of opened up a door for resistance training being

more feminine. Um, I think that in

more feminine. Um, I think that in combination with the introduction of more group fitness, it had resistance training components, crossfit, which um,

a lot of women were drawn to. I think

all of that has made women feel more empowered to lift weights and less fearful of the the results. Although I

think there is still a sentiment in some circles that lifting weights or lifting too heavy is going to make you huge instead of you know quote unquote toned.

Also if there are all of these where are all of these bulky women? When do you walk how often do you walk down the street and see an incredibly jacked woman? It's very very rare. And so

woman? It's very very rare. And so

clearly no one is getting huge by accident. you're not getting extremely

accident. you're not getting extremely muscular without working really really hard and often incorporating some pharmacological help

>> for a a woman who's not currently doing resistance training. Um maybe we could

resistance training. Um maybe we could talk to her uh for a second. Um at what age is too early for a woman to do

resistance training? What does the data

resistance training? What does the data say?

I think is a cultural stereotype that at least in high school the girls didn't belong in the weight room. That was certainly my experience

room. That was certainly my experience growing up. Now I think that's shifting.

growing up. Now I think that's shifting.

And so it's not that it's unsafe, it's just that it wasn't done. And so people weren't teaching teenage girls how to lift weights. And there's a lot of

lift weights. And there's a lot of advantages to that, especially if you're playing sports. Because we have female

playing sports. Because we have female athletes who are teenagers and then going into college and continuing to play their sports and there can be not only a performance improvement but also

an injury reduction from doing some resistance training along with your sports specific training. So I think it's it's certainly valuable to to start

younger also from a habit building perspective because I know you know if you're somebody who has gone decades without ever doing a lot of structured exercise or without ever lifting weights

it can feel kind of daunting and intimidating to learn the new skill.

That said we know that you can gain muscle anytime even if you start at 70.

So, it's not that it's ever too late to start, but if we start earlier, we are building muscle in the way that you're building a savings account or a

retirement account. Because if we're not

retirement account. Because if we're not lifting weights and if we're not physically active, then we do start to lose muscle with age. And later in life, it does become a problem.

>> I wonder uh if resistance training should be taught earlier. Um it doesn't sound like it should be avoided for young girls. Is that correct?

young girls. Is that correct?

>> Yeah. I mean I think if we see a young kid doing a barbell squat, there's something kind of jarring about that.

But think about all the kids we see all the time, you know, on the monkey bars essentially doing pull-ups or muscleups and developing a lot of upper body

strength. And certainly young gymnasts

strength. And certainly young gymnasts have been doing that for a very long time. So, it's not that there isn't any

time. So, it's not that there isn't any sort of resistance training or going around or or or happening in childhood.

It's just not the structured training that we think when we talk about lifting weights.

>> That's an excellent point and it makes me realize that probably early in development, boys and girls are doing resistance training at the level of pull-ups and monkey bars and all the rest. Um, to the same extent, maybe even

rest. Um, to the same extent, maybe even the girls a bit more if the boys are all playing video games or like I don't know. Oh no, who knows? But then there's

know. Oh no, who knows? But then there's a drop off because of this what really is just a a a cultural stereotype um that boys are going to go to the gym and girls aren't. Although that seems to

be changing. Okay. Well, that's a bit of

be changing. Okay. Well, that's a bit of the sociology around resistance training in in young girls. What about um a woman in her, you know, teens, 20s, 30s or

older who's just never done formal resistance training, perhaps has done other forms of exercise. How should she think about starting resistance training? We could break this down into

training? We could break this down into days per week, sets and reps, etc. But what's the the sort of general contour of a really good starter program for a

woman at essentially any age?

>> Historically, I think women have been told that exercise is for weight loss.

And so, it's really important that we start to shift that narrative because resistance training isn't about being smaller. It's not about the number on

smaller. It's not about the number on the scale. So, we want to think about

the scale. So, we want to think about getting bigger, about growing muscle.

And in order to do that, we need to challenge the muscle in a way that is a sufficient stimulus for growth. So, if

we think about a full body training program, we want to target all of the major muscle groups and a challenging load will differ depending on the exercise and and the muscle groups that

we're targeting. And we can train in

we're targeting. And we can train in low, moderate, or high rep ranges, but we need to train close enough to

failure. Meaning, if we can only do 10

failure. Meaning, if we can only do 10 and not an 11th, that's failure. So, we

can stop at maybe eight or nine and that's an appropriate stimulus. But if

we finish that set of 10 and we could easily do another 10, then that load is too light. So making sure that we are

too light. So making sure that we are doing a full body training program targeting all the major muscle groups that we're using appropriate loads and we're progressing over time because what

you'll be able to do whether it's load or number of repetitions this month will change next month and the month after.

>> You mentioned full body program. Does

the entire body ha uh have to be trained each session? Or could um somebody use a

each session? Or could um somebody use a so-called split like you know chest and back one day rest legs the next day rest shoulders and arms calves some ab work

stretch repeat that sort of thing. If

you're only going to train two or three times a week, I think it's better to do a full body session because you're hitting all those major muscle

groups at an appropriate number of times per week. If you want to train more

per week. If you want to train more often than that, it does make sense to split it up. So, if you're training four days per week, I would do, you know, maybe upper body, lower body, upper body, lower body. If you're training 5

days or six days per week, then we might split it up even more the way that you suggested. And there are also uh options

suggested. And there are also uh options depending on your personal goals. And so

if we're thinking about muscle growth for overall health, then maybe we're not doing as many exercises like accessory type exercises. But if we're thinking

type exercises. But if we're thinking about changing the physique with resistance training, then we might tailor the program to your goals and

preferences and um work a little bit more on those muscle groups that are important to you. for sake of example then I I'll just try and build a structure around what you're saying.

Let's say uh a woman decides to do a Monday, Wednesday, Friday whole body workout each time. Take the weekends off. Obviously the days that it starts

off. Obviously the days that it starts could shift. Um but due to schedule or

could shift. Um but due to schedule or other things, sometimes it's a Monday, Friday, sometimes it's a Monday, Wednesday, sometimes they hit Monday, Wednesday, Friday. Seems like a

Wednesday, Friday. Seems like a reasonable framework. Would you suggest

reasonable framework. Would you suggest training the entire body all three or in some cases two two days per week using the same exercises to target the same

muscle groups each time? Meaning if she squats on uh Monday for her quads and of course also for uh other muscle groups, you know, hamstrings and glutes and lower back are going to get hit too. But

should she squat again on Wednesday and Friday or do you recommend varying the the the movement by uh per muscle group?

It's an option to do either. I I think it's there's an element of personal preference. If you're working on

preference. If you're working on improving squat strength, then you probably do want to squat more than once per week because it practicing the movement is important. But if we're

talking about muscle growth, then we have a lot of options. And so you can do barbell work, you can do machine work, you can do dumbbells. And we can break it up if you wanted more variety by

saying, "Okay, Monday your lower body exercises are going to be a squat and on Wednesday we'll do a a good morning and we'll work more of the posterior chain

or Friday maybe we'll do more of a a glute dominant exercise and we'll do some hip thrusts." And so I think it depends how many exercises you're doing

in a session and then how long the workout's going to be before we decide how we're going to split that up. And so

you could do this a a more quad dominant movement like a squat, a lunge, a leg press, a step up, and also do more of a

glute hamstring dominant movement like a good morning or a stiff leg deadlift.

and do both in the same session. Or you

could split those up and have more of a quad dominant day and a more hamstring glute dominant day.

>> Got it. Um, I'm going to drill down a little bit more into specifics because I anticipate that's what people will want and it's uh probably the first time we've had somebody uh so well qualified

to get into these specifics about resistance training on this podcast specifically for women. Although you're

going to tell us later that the words specifically for women is dangerous language. We'll we'll get back to that.

language. We'll we'll get back to that.

Okay. So, let's assume two or three days per week whole body workouts. Um, one

could vary or keep the exercises per muscle group the same. Um, how many work sets after a sufficient warm-up? And

when I think of warm-up, I'll take the liberty here and you can tell me where I'm wrong. I think, okay, a light set to

I'm wrong. I think, okay, a light set to kind of remind yourself what the mechanics are, get some blood flow going, see if anything feels like it might need another light warm-up set and just kind of like a stretching out. Then

a moderate set, like 50% of your one rep max, something where you could do 10 to 15 reps, but maybe you do seven or eight or maybe even a little heavier. And then

move to the work set. The work set that's taken within to failure or within a rep or two just shy of failure. How

many work sets after a sufficient warm-up for that muscle group?

>> At least two.

>> I prefer three.

>> Uh you could do four. Beyond that is probably overkill.

>> And that's assuming one exercise for that muscle group for the entire workout. So four three to four sets

workout. So four three to four sets per muscle group per workout, each muscle two to three times per week >> with the understanding that many exercises work more than one muscle

group. So, if I'm doing a leg extension,

group. So, if I'm doing a leg extension, then I know I'm specifically working the quads, right? But if I'm doing a leg

quads, right? But if I'm doing a leg press or a squat, then yes, I'm working the quads, but I'm also working the glutes. And you can kind of say, well,

glutes. And you can kind of say, well, is that a half a set for the glutes? Is

that a full set for the glutes? And same

thing if we're doing a bench press. Yes,

you're working your chest, you're working your delts, you're also working your triceps. So, uh, is that a full set

your triceps. So, uh, is that a full set for the triceps, or is it just a tricep push down that I'm going to consider a set for the triceps? So it it gets a little bit murky when we think about

exercises that work multiple muscle groups. But I think if we focus on those

groups. But I think if we focus on those compound movements, the the bench press, the squats, the deadlifts, then we

should think in that range that we're doing at least two, preferably three, uh but beyond four probably unnecessary.

Well, at three workouts per week, you know, it's, you know, that's getting anywhere from, you know, nine to 12 sets for the quads. That's that's a fair amount of work. If one were to collapse all of that into a single workout,

that's that's a lot of quad work. What

sort of rest intervals between sets?

>> I prefer autoregulation for rest. I

think if you have strength specific goals, meaning you're really working on a one rep max deadlift, let's say, in order to repeat that type of

performance, you will need longer rest.

Um maybe four minutes, 5 minutes, it depends, right? Uh but for an average

depends, right? Uh but for an average gym session, you know, using some machines or using some dumbbells, then two minutes is probably fine for most

people. And once you're you've been

people. And once you're you've been training for a while, you'll know when you're ready. But if it makes you feel

you're ready. But if it makes you feel better to set the timer, then I'd say 2 minutes for most exercises. Um maybe 3 minutes for for something like a squat

or deadlift. Is there anything of value

or deadlift. Is there anything of value that can be done during the rest period other than rest and change the weight?

Of course, >> if you want to maximize time efficiency, then we might consider agonist antagonist supersets. So when you look

antagonist supersets. So when you look at somebody doing a bench press or chest press and then instead of resting for the two to three minutes and then doing the next set, they go and they do a row.

And so you're going back and forth and you're you're pairing a push and a pull.

And that doesn't seem to interfere with adaptation or even acute performance the same way it would if you didn't rest in between your straight sets of bench

press. So that can be a really viable

press. So that can be a really viable way to train especially if you are crunched for time. So maybe a bench press or some other press type movement,

dumbbell incline presses, whatever um she selects and then um move immediately from there to a pull down.

>> Sure.

>> And then wait out the remainder of the rest interval and then do another superset. That sort of arrangement.

superset. That sort of arrangement.

>> Yep. superers setting or doing an exercise that normally you would rest two or three minutes between and instead resting a minute than going doing the antagonistic muscle and back also um

prevents getting lost in your phone because you're on task. You know, it's amazing how much longer workouts get when when one starts texting or paying attention to other things and and the the switching back of focus from

exercise to phone is a I don't know I don't know any good studies on this but it it can't can't be healthy.

>> Yeah. There are also studies about stretching in between or doing some sort of active recovery type work in between.

We don't have enough data to say that's necessarily beneficial. Uh but I think

necessarily beneficial. Uh but I think if people are thinking I don't want to sit and rest and do nothing, then the the superset or even a circuit type of

structure is probably a better way to go.

>> What about pushing past failure? some,

you know, assisted reps, aka forced reps, done in reasonably good form, so injury isn't a risk. Uh, drop sets where you immediately lower the weight and get a few more reps after failure. Are you a

fan of these so-called um intensity techniques?

>> I think forced reps where we're not getting much benefit from other than it can be fun if you're working with a

training partner. Uh drop sets um are a

training partner. Uh drop sets um are a good kind of finisher because they can especially if you're doing a cable type exercise.

I'm not I'm not going to say drop sets are better than straight sets, but it is a way to add some kind of variety into

especially the last set of of a workout.

um or if if you're doing exercises that are um just more conducive to drop sets like a bicep curl or a leg extension or something that's really easy to to

immediately drop the weight and go to the next. So, it's not better, but it's

the next. So, it's not better, but it's certainly a tool and it fits into that timeefficient strategy.

>> For the longest time, I thought time under tension and moving the weight really slow was a value. I know that everyone should control the weight so that you don't get injured. No, you

know, dropping the weight and swinging it back up and this kind of thing. Um,

but assuming that the weight is under control, meaning momentum isn't doing most of the work, you're being careful to protect your um form and posture, etc. Is there a best rate of movement

for the resistance? Should we emphasize the the lowering phase, etc.?

>> There's always going to be a harder part of the movement and an easier part of the movement. So, we should

the movement. So, we should move the weight as quickly as we can during that difficult phase and then

control on the easier phase. But trying

to intentionally slow down either direction is not particularly advantageous, especially if we think about like standing up from from a squat. We want to stand up from the

squat. We want to stand up from the bottom of the squat as quickly as we can under load. If we have a lot of load,

under load. If we have a lot of load, we're not going to stand up super fast, but we should be thinking stand up because if we don't, we're less likely to be able to complete that repetition.

>> I think this is a really important point that most non muscle physiologists, exercise physiologists have not been trained on, but I'm hearing more about this these days that trying to move the

weight as fast as one can under control against resistance should be the mindset inside of the set. Is that correct? Did

I I want to make sure I'm not contorting your words at all.

>> That's right. And when you think about doing a set of 10, right? By the time you get to seven, eight, nine, the weight is already moving more slowly.

You're starting to grind it out because it's getting more and more challenging.

And so if you are using a load that that is appropriate, then the rate the the time it takes for you to complete that

rep will inevitably get a little bit longer. But that's not something you're

longer. But that's not something you're doing intentionally.

>> Got it. Um, getting really granular here, but I get asked these questions all the time and um, as it relates to women's training specifically. You'd be

amazed that people are coming to me for that, but almost certainly so that I could ask you. Partial repetitions and isometric holds. Do they have any value?

isometric holds. Do they have any value?

The problem with doing partial repetitions or even playing with tempo is that it's really difficult to replicate consistently. And so I

replicate consistently. And so I mentioned earlier that we want to progress over time. And if we're standardizing the range of motion and

we're standardizing the exercise and we're standardizing the tempo, then it's easy to say, "Okay, I'm using 2 and a half more pounds this week. I've

progressed." If we're playing around with all of these variables and then we're trying to add load, it starts to get a little tricky because you're

saying, I know I'm using more load, but am I cutting the range of motion short in order to to to lift more? Uh am I

speeding up the reps in order to lift more? So we want to introduce fewer

more? So we want to introduce fewer variables to make sure that we are progressing whether it's a rep or load

>> repetition ranges. Uh earlier you said getting close to failure or going to failure is the critical component but within a pretty broad range. Um, do you

think it's necessary to limit uh oneself to certain repetition ranges on the order of a workout, the week, the month, a phase of the year? Um, are repetition

ranges between, you know, three and five compatible with repetition ranges for the, you know, other muscle groups are the same in the same week of 10 10 to

15? I mean, I think there's a lot of um

15? I mean, I think there's a lot of um kind of uh vagueness around there this for women and for men. You know, you hear, "Oh, low reps get you strong but don't grow muscle." And then here,

higher reps, as long as you go to failure, they'll grow muscle. And uh

that's all fine and good, but no one really has ever said clearly how to vary this stuff in a way that allows for the best progress. And um I realize that's a

best progress. And um I realize that's a lot to to ask you to tackle in one answer, but you have the mic. uh what

what are your thoughts on repetition ranges and and how to vary them uh and when >> we used to think and they used to teach all the personal trainers this there was

a strength endurance continuum such that you're doing one to five reps and you're building strength and then you're doing something kind of moderate range up to 12 and that's hypertrophy and then

beyond that 12 to 20 that's in muscular endurance and our understanding of that has evolved certainly if you're training for maximal strength, i.e. a one rep

max, then you need to be training in in those lower rep ranges because that is a sports specific uh training. And so it's

not that if you do sets of 10, your one rep max won't get stronger. It will, but to maximize your one rep max, then we

need to do some very high load, very low rep training. If the goal is

rep training. If the goal is hypertrophy, we have way more flexibility because we do see similar

growth whether you're training in those high load low rep ranges or the lower load high rep ranges and anything in

between provided that we train close enough to failure. However, we need to think about overall volume because that's very important for growth. So, if

we're doing sets of three, we're going to need to do a lot of sets of three to accomplish the same overall volume that we would get by doing sets of eight or 10.

>> That last point, I'm so grateful you said that. I used to hear the late

said that. I used to hear the late Charles Pulquin say this that if you're going to use higher repetitions, let's say between eight and 15, which for me seems like high repetitions, um you can

I don't want to say get away with, but you could do two or three sets per muscle group um or per exercise and maybe two exercises for a muscle group.

Whereas, if you were going to train in the three to six rep range, you might need to do eight sets of and because typically one rests longer in between sets when with heavier loads. Those are

two very different workouts. One is

actually much more efficient than the other, even though it gets you something slightly different. I'm sure people are

slightly different. I'm sure people are wondering, and I know you don't want to bias people's choices, but do you have a favorite repetition range for you for your level of experience these days? I

mean, what do you typically select?

I typically do something in the six to 12 depending on the exercise, but I think some

exercises are fun to do 15 reps of um and some are not. So I I think if you're doing something like face pulls for your

rear delts or leg extensions, I would never say, "Yeah, do a set of three."

But if you're doing squats, I don't want to do a set of 20 squats ever. And most

people don't. Uh so I think we can for most people say all right, somewhere in the the kind of 6 to 12ish is a good

sweet spot. If you're new, I'd say go 8

sweet spot. If you're new, I'd say go 8 to 12 because we want to get really comfortable with the movement pattern.

And so if you're only doing sets of four or sets of five, then you're not repeating the movement enough to get really proficient with the technique. So

I'd love for for those people to start in a moderate rep range. I think also if you go beyond that, then there's there's more of a chance of uh kind of form

failure and injury risk. And so we want to be really proficient in the moderate rep range before we start exploring those lower or higher rep ranges. Do you

think it's valuable uh for women to vary the repetition or men uh to vary the repetition ranges um like week by week like okay this week I'm going to train

six to 10 reps on everything or um I'm going to go three to five reps on everything for three weeks then I'm going to switch to six to eight for three weeks and then I'm going to go you

know 10 to 15 for three weeks and then repeat. Is there is there any um known

repeat. Is there is there any um known value for hypertrophy and strength training to doing it sticking with one thing and then systematically varying every say three weeks?

>> You can do it that way. I prefer to combine it into the week. So if let's say we're doing squats twice a week,

then let's do a lower rep set day and a moderate rep set day. And you can do that for all of your kind of main

compound lifts. And that adds some

compound lifts. And that adds some variety, but also means you have the data to make sure that you're progressing in each of those rep ranges

kind of simultaneously. Whereas if we were to do sets of six for three weeks and then move to sets of 12, then I

don't really have that anchor point for am I making progress because now I'm doing the that lift in another rep range.

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a1.com/huberman to get started today. A moment ago, you said something and I'm so grateful that you said this because I don't think it's ever been communicated as clearly as you

did and I would just want to double click on it. Um, there's this assumption that heavier sets, and I'm not referring to one to three reps. I mean, let's say

in the five to eight repetition range, final repetitions close to failure or failure, that somehow they are more dangerous um than high repetition sets.

In my experience, high repetitions from 15 to 25, especially on compound movements, get people hurt at least as often as the heavy stuff.

And I think it's because it's I'm I'm guessing here, but that it's hard to concentrate and generate perfect form on a very high repetition set. And compound

movements are where you can get hurt.

You can get hurt on isolation movements, but multi- joint movements done for 20 reps, I mean, unless you're really locked in mentally, that's often where

people get injured is my observation.

>> Yeah, I think it's an equal opportunity game. You know, we we really need to

game. You know, we we really need to make sure that form is dialed in and that you have a spotter or a training partner if appropriate depending on the

lift that you're doing. Because if

you're doing high rep deadlifts, for example, you do have more opportunities to lift the weight in such a way that

you just tweak something. And sometimes

if people are doing those lower rep heavier sets, they're more likely to kind of take that moment, reset, lock

in, and then perform the next rep. And

it's a bit easier to rush the set and not kind of force yourself to to to reset and and focus on those form cues when you're using a load that doesn't

require you to do so.

>> Thank you. Yes, recently there was a pretty uh avid debate online about heavy weights versus not heavy weights, especially for older folks. And since

now I'm 50, I place myself in that category. I'm a big fan of low

category. I'm a big fan of low repetitions, but not three or less. Um,

but let's just say some of my peers feel that that's super dangerous not to recommend, you know, five to eight repetition range. It could be that some

repetition range. It could be that some people are just better at quote unquote locking everything in and getting really focused and doing a proper set when there's fewer repetitions then and some

people might be great at I I realize that doing 20 repetitions of stiff-legged deadlifts and every repetition is just beautiful. But isn't

there the idea that some of the smaller supporting muscles can fatigue as a set goes on and make one susceptible to injury? Is that or is that just gym? Is

injury? Is that or is that just gym? Is

that just like jock science?

>> No matter what, we need to make sure that we're appropriately warmed up and that we're using proper technique. So,

if you try to go do a one rep max or a set of three and you're not properly warmed up, I'm concerned.

>> Sure. But assuming all else is equal, then depending on the exercise, we also have to think of overall systemic fatigue. Even

fatigue. Even fatigue um on the cardiovascular system if you're doing 30 squats, you might be out of breath before your legs give out

and that can introduce another mental challenge to the set.

>> Excellent point. I hadn't considered that. I also don't enjoy 20 repetition

that. I also don't enjoy 20 repetition squats. Although on the belt squat, I'm

squats. Although on the belt squat, I'm finding some, let's just say, some personal growth through them. Mental

personal growth. It's a whole different thing to do high repetition leg work.

It's like a and it is very cardiovascular. Speaking of which, um I

cardiovascular. Speaking of which, um I think most people nowadays, men and women, uh understand that cardiovascular exercise is important as well. And I

realize that term pisses off the endurance athletes because what is cardiovascular exercise? I'm talking

cardiovascular exercise? I'm talking about something that you can repeat for six minutes or more. um continuously uh gets heart rate elevated and so on. I

think most people think of this as cardio. Um how do you recommend uh

cardio. Um how do you recommend uh scheduling cardio with the two or three day per week um resistance training?

Does it matter if somebody does it before or after their weight training on a given day? Um can they do it on the same day? Would they be better off doing

same day? Would they be better off doing it on other days? Uh what are the guidelines?

So the concept of kind of the interference effect or issues with concurrent training come from the idea that you have both endurance training

goals and resistance training goals and that if you perform those too close together that the endurance training

might blunt some of that hypertrophic adaptation. um we see that could be true

adaptation. um we see that could be true if you're doing very high volume work and you're stacking it very close

together. So assuming your hypertrophy

together. So assuming your hypertrophy or strength is the goal, then we would want to perform that first and if

possible, separate them by, you know, at least several hours. But we really don't run into true uh interference effect

type results unless we're doing tons of training and you know, you're doing your sprints before you do your leg workout.

I would avoid that. I think we also need to think about whether we have endurance training goals or we're just trying to be fit for health. Most people listening

to this probably um would like to get stronger, probably would like to add muscle to specific muscles and maybe have it in mind and we'll get here in a moment to not

deliberately not add muscle to other muscles and um to be what they consider lean enough and that want to be fit. I

always think of the the general life requirements like you want to be able to carry your suitcase or bagging if you have to run for the plane that you can do it without coughing up along. Pick

things up and not get injured. Sprint if

you need to. Play a game of frisbee or soccer or or or volleyball, a pickup game at the picnic or something. Uh go

for a hike maybe with a kid on your back, maybe with a backpack if you don't have kids. I think the sort of like just

have kids. I think the sort of like just ability to go out on a Sunday and take a long hike with a pack without having to train for it. the ability to sprint for the plane without without dying when you

arrive there. Um, these kinds of things

arrive there. Um, these kinds of things to me are the real life metrics. I feel

like that's what most people want. And

then of course some people want to run marathons and be powerliffters and, you know, Alex Hunnel just, you know, scaled a a tower in Taipei without any ropes.

So, you know, there's a huge range, but I think what I described, I think, is where most of us are at. What do you think most women are at?

>> Lifting weights is so important because we don't have a lifestyle fun equivalent activity.

>> Mhm. But I don't think we all need to be going for a jog or spending an hour on the elliptical if we prefer playing tennis or going for bike rides with

friends or going for hikes or something that is physically active and enjoyable and that we will be more likely to do

consistently. So there is an element of

consistently. So there is an element of that that can be really freeing for people because they think, "Oh, well then I don't need to worry about adding

these structured cardio sessions in my week. I'm just going to do those outdoor

week. I'm just going to do those outdoor physical activities with friends that I'm enjoying and also benefiting from."

>> What are the data on walking? Um I've

heard 7,000 steps or so per day is a is a good number to shoot for. where I

heard that the 10,000 number was just kind of thrown out there the same way that 8 hours of intermittent fasting was just kind of thrown out there. We'll get

back to that. How important and helpful is walking for women in particular?

>> I like to think of walking as something you can do that is not structured exercise. And so we're not thinking

exercise. And so we're not thinking about meeting a step count necessarily. You

can do that, but people who focus on something like step counts usually do so for a few months and then stop because being kind of obsessive about tracking

that metric gets a little old.

>> And it's important to think not only about hitting one target, whether it's, you know, minutes of exercise per week or step count or heart rate goal, but what are we doing for the the other

hours in the day? So I think somebody who isn't active at all going from doing very few steps to getting it up to four,

five, 6 thousand steps, yes, we're going to see a huge benefit. But if you're somebody who is physically active in a variety of ways and you are moving

throughout the day, not necessarily focusing purely on steps, then that metric of step count is a little

bit less useful because we are getting in that overall activity that is going to be beneficial for health. So, what

I'm hearing is if a woman is in the gym two or three days per week lifting the way that you described and has some outdoor or or indoor social sport type

activities that she enjoys, there's no need to specifically add cardio unless there's an endurance goal or a sprint competition goal. Is that right?

competition goal. Is that right?

>> Yeah. And I think a lot of people are adding cardio for weight loss goals and that is a bit of a fool's errand because

the fat loss that we will get from just adding exercise is pretty disappointing relative to the fat loss that we will see when we adjust our nutrition.

>> What about getting up toward max heart rate for sake of the dreaded V2 max? No,

I don't say dreaded. I mean, I just think it's funny cuz, you know, 5 years ago, no one was talking about heart rate variability and V2 max. I mean, again, I'm not trying to inject male fitness or my routine into it, but by virtue of

what I've learned in the course of the podcast and also what I enjoy, I make it a point to get on the aine bike or some other thing I can do at max effort or close to it without getting injured um

and do, you know, 30 second sprint, 30 second rest, 30 second sprint for at least once a week, ideally twice. I'm

assuming, and you tell me, you have the the the credentials here. Uh I'm

assuming that by getting my heart rate way way up uh for a couple minutes each week, that I'm doing myself some benefit separate from my resistance training.

Is that true or is it or is it um because I I see I mean, I'm not a calorie counter. Kind of an intuitive

calorie counter. Kind of an intuitive sense of what I need. Um, but I see, you know, at the end of those workouts, it says I burned 100 calories, which is,

you know, I, you know, I walk I eat 100 calories of blueberries in one pass by the blueberry basket. So, so I'm not trying to do it for caloric burn sake.

>> Yeah. The value of the really highintensity stuff is time efficiency.

So, if we look at those adaptations to endurance exercise or if we're going to just say cardio broadly, then you can get those by doing more long form

moderate intensity. You can also get

moderate intensity. You can also get those by doing higher intensity for shorter amounts of time. So, it's not

that it's magic in terms of the adaptation, but you're able to get more bang for your buck because you're doing that higher intensity and you don't need

to do it for quite as long.

>> Let's talk about the somewhat barbedwire topic uh these days about variations in hormones as they relate to the menstrual

cycle and training requirements.

There's a lot of assumptions about this.

There's a lot of conjecture and I do believe there's also a lot of outright fabrication. Not because anyone

fabrication. Not because anyone necessarily uh wants to mislead, but I don't think anyone has spent as much time with the data on this as you have.

So, should women train differently depending on where they are in their menstrual cycle?

>> The short answer is no. The conversation

around the menstrual cycle is good. I

think it's good that we're talking about it. It's good that people feel

it. It's good that people feel comfortable discussing it with their coach.

The unfortunate shift of because you have a menstrual cycle and because hormones are fluctuating, you need to

change how you are exercising is way too simplistic and doesn't align with the data that we have. So instead of

worrying about whether you're in this phase or that phase or whether estradile is high or low, I would really focus on how you feel.

Train hard, train consistently, train progressively. If at some point in your

progressively. If at some point in your cycle you experience menstrual symptoms or fatigue or a lack of motivation that

you relate to menration, then having an option to skip a workout or adjust the exercises that you're doing for that workout or do another form of exercise

that day is completely fine. Not saying

you have to grind it out, push through, but you are not less capable that day because you have your menstrual period or because the hormone profile has

shifted in one direction or another.

>> There's a broader conversation around this, I think, about when to push through internal resistance, either just kind of general malaise, like one doesn't feel well or didn't sleep well,

um whether or not one is feeling run down. Maybe we can kind of tuck that

down. Maybe we can kind of tuck that into this conversation about uh ways to vary training or not vary training according to phase of the menstrual cycle. Let's say somebody is not feeling

cycle. Let's say somebody is not feeling as rested as they normally do or would like to. And I say that because people

like to. And I say that because people assume you need eight hours of sleep, right? I one might need eight, they

right? I one might need eight, they might need 10. I'm fine on 6 and 1 half to seven. I prefer eight, but actually 6

to seven. I prefer eight, but actually 6 and 1 half to seven I'm good. five,

that's a whole other issue. So,

should women push through a day of a workout if they got, you know, maybe an hour or two less than their normal ration of sleep that they need? Is it or are they putting themselves in some sort

of danger if they do that?

>> There's no danger. You might feel worse, >> but subjective measures of performance are different often from objective measures of

performance. And that goes for the

performance. And that goes for the menstrual cycle symptoms and and other factors as well. So you might go in and and deadlift the same weight as last

week and you'd say, "Wow, this feels really heavy or the weight's moving really slow this morning." But you're still lifting it. So objectively, the

performance was the same. It's just your experience of what it felt like differs.

It feels harder today. To your point, that can be the case for a variety of reasons. We can be underslept or we are

reasons. We can be underslept or we are jet-lagged or we're stressed about something workrelated and feeling distracted. There's a lot of reasons why

distracted. There's a lot of reasons why we don't have a 10 out of 10 workout every single time we go to the gym. So,

I think there's an argument to be made to Yeah. push forward, just do it

to Yeah. push forward, just do it anyway. even a subpar workout is better

anyway. even a subpar workout is better than no workout at all.

>> In your experience and observation, um do you think that women who take up resistance training enjoy it on average?

Do they tend to enjoy it or do they tend to um enjoy the feeling afterwards? How

do you how do you feel about resistance training?

>> I think it's particularly powerful for women because and I alluded to this earlier, there's a history of marketing ineffective programs to women

or encouraging them to constantly switch it up. Try this new group fitness class

it up. Try this new group fitness class or try this new at home video workout and they never really see the results that they are hoping to see. And so

you're just program hopping and disappointed and feeling like I'm putting in all this work. I'm doing the thing and I'm not seeing results. When

you stick to a good resistance training program for long enough, not only do you start to see results in the way that your body looks, because muscle growth

can change your body composition and can change your physique, but you also have this empowering feeling of progression over time. I can get stronger. I can do

over time. I can get stronger. I can do more. And that keeps you coming back.

more. And that keeps you coming back.

It's really motivating. So, I think that can be really powerful that you feel like you're getting something out of what you're putting in and you're more likely to stick to it long term.

>> For anyone, but since we're talking mainly about uh women's resistance training today, um do you think there's value to spending two or three weeks, maybe less, maybe

more, just learning movements properly before getting into the whole business of progressive overload?

>> Yes. Because the problem is you start to see, oh, I can do more than I did last week. And then you think, oh, well, this

week. And then you think, oh, well, this is linear, right? And so you think, I can add 10 pounds every week forever. It

doesn't work like that. So inevitably

you end up uh training in or many of us have trained in such a way that we injured something, tweaked something, form failed because we got so focused on

just lifting more weight, lifting more weight, lifting more weight. So, I agree that uh a slower progression could be better, but that's also the power of

just trying to add another rep instead of trying to add weight week in and week out.

>> We're all told we just kind of like need to exercise. And there's examples of how

to exercise. And there's examples of how to do movements, but be wonderful if there was kind of like getting the basics. Like a sprinter doesn't just go

basics. Like a sprinter doesn't just go sprint, they learn how to do all these drills and um and move into it. And some

of these things are complex and it's not just about avoiding injury. It's about

getting the most out of the exercise over time. That's kind of how I'm I'm

over time. That's kind of how I'm I'm thinking about this.

>> I think it's also making sure that you are using proper technique and full range of motion because that's one of the other things that is often the first to go when we really try to load up and

load up and load up. And you see this with people squatting and benching all the time. they're just adding another

the time. they're just adding another plate but then cutting the range of motion short to accommodate that additional load. And so that's not

additional load. And so that's not really progressive overload because you changed your range of motion. So I think especially if a lift is technically

demanding something like a hinge, you know, deadlift, good morning. For a lot of people who've never done that movement pattern, it can be really difficult to just develop that

kinesthetic awareness like where am I in space? Am I bending my knees too much or

space? Am I bending my knees too much or not enough? Um am am I starting to round

not enough? Um am am I starting to round my upper back? And when you can really understand the proper form, then you

know how to load it.

>> If a woman just feels lousy at one particular phase of her cycle, and that's a consistent month-to-month thing for her and she doesn't want to train during that time.

It sounded like there's no issue with that that you're not suggesting that you that women push through that necessarily that they we're on the West Coast that they honor their their feelings is how

people speak out here. Um that they honor their feelings as opposed to push against the you know the the sense like it this is just a tough time to do this.

But you're from New York and you're giving me this look now where that makes people who are people are just listening. Um Lauren's looking at me

listening. Um Lauren's looking at me like, "Yeah, that sounds like uh you know, I don't know." So, but I don't want to put words in your mouth. What

are you thinking?

>> Well, I'll tell you this. We have survey data looking at how many people report experiencing menstrual symptoms, things

like uh cramps and low back pain, uh lack of motivation, irritability. And 75

80% of women report feeling those symptoms. and none of them report changing their training in response to those symptoms. So, and not to say that

you shouldn't, but typically, at least where the data shows, it's not that common that people are overhauling their training even in response to menstrual

symptoms. That said, most people experience them for one or two days. So,

we're only talking about skipping or adjusting one, maybe two workouts. So, I

I don't feel that strongly about it either way. I think it, you know, it's

either way. I think it, you know, it's up to you. And like I said, there will be a variety of reasons within any given month why we show up to the gym and we don't feel our best. And some of those

days, again, for a variety of reasons, we might decide to make some adjustments and other days we might just decide to push through. And both are completely

push through. And both are completely acceptable.

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If I'm not mistaken, you've uh looked at the data on the relationship between hormone-based contraception and effects of exercise. Um, and I want to be very

of exercise. Um, and I want to be very clear. I said hormone-based

clear. I said hormone-based contraception because there are so many different forms of contraception. Some

of which are hormone based, some of which aren't. And of course, within the

which aren't. And of course, within the domain of hormone-based, you've got estrogen based, progesterine based, and and there's others as well. What are the general and more specific takeaways from

that uh literature? Does hormone-based

contraception impact the adaptation to exercise, the motivation to exercise, or anything else that women should be aware of? Um, what do the data say? The

of? Um, what do the data say? The

majority of these studies are on folks taking combined oral contraceptive pills. So, this wouldn't apply to

pills. So, this wouldn't apply to something like a hormonal IED uh or or the there's a patch that people are using now that it's more modern take,

but there is enough data at this point to say when it comes to strength, hypertrophy, power, we're not seeing combined oral contraceptive pills move

the needle in either direction. And

there were appropriate hypotheses to say, oh, maybe this could be detrimental or maybe this could be beneficial. But

what we see similar to the influence of the endogenous hormone fluctuations, which are quite substantial, if those aren't affecting performance or exercise

induced adaptations, it's not that shocking that the hormonal contraceptives wouldn't move the needle to a great extent either.

>> Yeah, it's an excellent point. I mean,

if one just looks at the uh the plot of estrogen levels or progesterone levels across the different phases of the menstrual cycle, you know, these are enormous differences. Uh likewise for

enormous differences. Uh likewise for testosterone and other and other hormones in women. Um and you're making the point that uh hormone based uh pill

contraception um is making changes in hormones of at least that magnitude. And

and so there's no reason to expect that it should impact um at least ability.

I can think of motivation to train um ability somehow like if it relates somehow to contractile ability the muscles or or tendon um uh tendon strength or something and then the

actual adaptation like so it sounds like none of these things block the adaptation to exercise the increase in muscle size or strength or both. Is that

right?

>> That's right. I I would say if you're just starting a contraceptive pill there some people have symptoms and side effects some of which are kind of attenuated over time and some of which

are not and you need to switch to something else. So you might for a short

something else. So you might for a short term because that pill is not a good fit for you then there could there could be some short-term influence in that sense.

But on the flip side, a lot of people go on a hormonal contraceptive because they have really severe menstrual symptoms and then that can be helpful in

relieving that pain. And so then you might be willing to to go to the the gym more frequently during the week where you have your menstrual period. So I I think we can we can think about those

kind of practical implications, but in terms of just the hormones themselves and the fact that, you know, we're downregulating the endogenous hormone production by introducing these

synthetic hormones that doesn't seem to impact performance or adaptations to exercise.

>> What if any are the really good data around the relationship between pmenopause and menopause and the hormone changes that tend to occur? Let's assume

without hormone replacement therapy for the moment and training. Should women

change their training as they enter permenopause menopause?

>> There's no reason to change your training because we still want the same adaptations. We want to increase and

adaptations. We want to increase and maintain muscle size and strength. We

want to reduce fall risk and fracture risk, maintain bone density. And so

resistance training is going to be a really key component of an exercise program for somebody uh pre and post

menopause. I think the idea that somehow

menopause. I think the idea that somehow the hormonal changes would influence muscle are really tied to that same

thought process that cycle syncing is based on. And so it comes down to this

based on. And so it comes down to this hypothesis that there is this relationship between estrogen and muscle. And so is if estrogen is

muscle. And so is if estrogen is declining with menopause, then that would have some effect on muscle. But we

don't see that. We see age related muscle loss that is exacerbated by physical inactivity. But you look at

physical inactivity. But you look at lean mass across the men the across the menopause transition and that in and of itself isn't accelerating the loss of of

muscle.

>> I think for understandable reasons there's this correlation that people draw between hormones and muscle and since resistance training is more kind of muscle oriented in people's minds

anyway I mean you got you know tendon and bone etc than cardiovascular training. It's a silly thing but we kind

training. It's a silly thing but we kind of make that association. There seem all these things around uh women's fitness.

It's like should training change uh during different phases of the menstrual cycle because after all menstrual cycle is hormones. Hormones affect how one

is hormones. Hormones affect how one feels but also muscle. Here we are you know back to muscle.

that changes in muscle size and strength as one ages in my understanding are just as much a function of atrophy of nerve

to muscle connections the strength of those as they are some drop in hormones and I think it's never really been stated out loud you know so I just want your thoughts on this um do you think

that if people understood that a lot of muscle and strength loss is inactivity as you said and inact activity brings a weakening of the nerve to muscle connection that it might help us get

away a little bit from this idea that everything about muscles is hormones and everything about hormones is muscle that they're equally important. I really

realize I'm leading the witness here a little bit, but I I'll just out you.

Your father's a neuroscientist. How

important is the nervous system and the changes that the nervous system normally undergoes as one ages important here? Is

that what we're trying to do or are we trying to offset some of that? It's

important too because we need to maintain those connections for all movement patterns right and so when we see long periods of physical inactivity

think you know immobilization or bed rest the rate at which you lose muscle is shocking I mean it's really really

dramatic and so we know that is a very extreme model of of atrophy that we we want to avoid but there are other

versions of that in just daily kind of sedentary life. You're not on bed rest,

sedentary life. You're not on bed rest, but and you're not technically immobilized, but you're moving so infrequently that you are exacerbating

muscle loss. And even if you are just

muscle loss. And even if you are just physically active, even if you're not lifting weights, you're much more likely to maintain that muscle. But once you

stop being physically active, then we run into a lot of problems. If more people understood the neural aspect of all this exercise stuff and

muscle and how that relates to fitness and brain health, I think it would help men and women kind of get around this thing that you mentioned earlier. It's

just kind of hovering my mind that so much of the way that fitness has been presented, exercise has been presented to women is around weight loss.

>> And now the conversation seems to be changing. It's about longevity. It's

changing. It's about longevity. It's

about maintaining muscle. It's about

maintaining brain health and not getting injured. And so it seems like it's

injured. And so it seems like it's morphing slightly.

>> I think that is missed in resistance training because we just think about it at the muscle level. But when we think about motor unit recruitment, that is a

neural pathway. And we need all of those

neural pathway. And we need all of those to stay intact to perform any kind of motor function. And so when we are

motor function. And so when we are lifting weights, we're not exclusively building muscle. And that's why we see

building muscle. And that's why we see tendon adaptations, bone adaptations, everything is connected. And it's also why if you're somebody who is aging, but

you're physically active in a way that requires a certain type of coordination, maybe it's pickle ball, um that that is

really helpful as well. I think the idea that you have to go to the gym is intimidating for some people because a lot of women in their minds think that

they're going to be the only woman in the gym. That's less and less true, but

the gym. That's less and less true, but in my experience, it's still the weight room is still probably a maledominated

section of the gym. I think the biggest fear is not knowing what to do. And

machines can be a really good place to start if you're somebody who doesn't want to work with a trainer and is a little bit nervous about trying to

selfach those movement patterns with barbells or dumbbells. A lot of commercial gyms these days have a circuit of machines and you can start there and kind of get comfortable with

those movement patterns. get comfortable

with what is challenging, what is close to failure, and then progress to some of these other exercises and equipment.

>> Yeah. When I've tried to encourage family me female family members like to weight train, like I don't want to go to a gym. Like, why not? They're like, I I

a gym. Like, why not? They're like, I I like my yoga class. I like Pilates. I

like going for hikes. What do you think are some things that women could do to sort of lower those barriers for for people? starting with group fitness

people? starting with group fitness because even though most group fitness classes are suboptimal from the perspective of a sound resistance

training program, it gets you into the gym. It gets you feeling comfortable. It

gym. It gets you feeling comfortable. It

will teach you some of those movement patterns that we've discussed. And then

maybe after class, you and a couple of friends that you've made in class can go and and try out a couple of machines.

And so you can kind of ease into it that way. And people gravitate towards group

way. And people gravitate towards group fitness because it's social and you have an appointment because you have to be there at at a specific time. So that can be another good kind of entry point to

get you going to the gym without feeling overwhelmed by exercises you're not sure how to perform or or equipment that you're not sure how to use. In terms of

the relationship between hormones, menstrual cycle, and training, I know I'm staying on this, but it comes up. I

mean, you've on social media. I mean, I don't know what percentage of questions that you get on social media relate to hormones and training uh as they relate to one another.

>> It's a lot. I think now more than ever, you're just seeing more and more of this messaging pop up. And with the menstrual

cycle, it's not only about exercise. I

see uh the way you should eat differently due to cycle phase, the way you should work differently, the way you should socialize differently. Um there

are all of these messages that are saying you need to kind of overhaul this aspect of your life to align with these phases. Is there any evidence that

phases. Is there any evidence that resistance training can help amelate some of the um symptoms of of the negative symptoms of uh certain phases of the cycle that women might be

experiencing? In other words, do they

experiencing? In other words, do they often feel better by training during the most difficult phase of their cycle? Has

that ever been demonstrated?

>> Not with resistance training specifically, but with physical activity, sure. Uh it it it can

activity, sure. Uh it it it can definitely help. Um because you if you

definitely help. Um because you if you have something like cramps then just kind of doing something to increase blood flow even if it's going for a walk can be helpful and it also kind of gets

your mind off of it so you're not actually sitting there kind of focusing on the fact that you're uncomfortable and it depends on the person but I think some sort of physical activity can be

beneficial and that's something that that you should consider exploring whether it's resistance training or anything else.

>> What about the nutrition um aspect uh in the menstrual cycle?

>> The nutrition data is pretty poor because as is most nutrition data, it's kind of self-report. And so we're saying observationally

people tend to eat a little bit more in this phase versus that phase on average based on self-reported food diaries.

Does that mean that you should change caloric intake or protein intake or carbohydrate intake? We don't have the

carbohydrate intake? We don't have the data to support any of that. And a lot of it comes back to this theory that you

have a kind of an anabolic phase or a catabolic phase. And so that extended

catabolic phase. And so that extended from oh you should focus on more resistance training during this phase to oh well then you must need more protein

in this other phase. So what kind of started as a hypothesis about anabolic and catabolic states has twisted into

changing your exercise program and changing your diet among other things.

>> I spoke to a couple different uh women prior to sitting down with you today because I needed data from actual women as opposed to my ideas about what they might be thinking, right? Or what I see online, right? Um these are people I'm

online, right? Um these are people I'm close with and and uh I believe they were honest with me and for the it wasn't an enormous poll. This is uh not

an official study, but I heard something at least three times out of the five people I spoke to and it was this. I

know I should lift weights, but I feel like I get enough muscle training from my Pilates or yoga. And I said, "Yeah,

but couldn't those things be really different than resistance training?" And

the answer that I got back was similar in several cases, which was, "Yeah, but my Pilates teacher, she looks awesome and she has tons of energy and she's 10 years older than me and I want to look

like her, so I'm going to do Pilates."

And I said, "Well, do you does she lift weights?" And she said, "No, she just

weights?" And she said, "No, she just does Pilates." And I said, "Well, I

does Pilates." And I said, "Well, I wonder if she like did gymnastics when we were younger." And then pretty soon I'm now the guy having this like conversation trying to essentially negotiate something I have no interest

in negotiating. But it gave me a window

in negotiating. But it gave me a window into something that I think might be pretty common, which is that um we all look at somebody and what they're doing and we go, "Oh, like that seems like a

look that is reasonable and and attractive and I I would want that and they seem to be like kicking butt in life and happy and I'm going to just do that." And so what do you say to women

that." And so what do you say to women who perhaps think like they're as muscular as they want to be now doing

Pilates and walking and maybe doing some other activities, but they're not doing resistance training. Is there some

resistance training. Is there some reason why they should be motivated to also resistance train? what you're

describing is very common and unfortunately for the vast majority of people they then go and do the exercise

class or follow what this person eats in a day and they never end up looking like that person because we have genetic

factors, nutritional factors, exercise factors and sometimes no matter what we're not going to have the body of this

other person. But Pilates is

other person. But Pilates is particularly guilty of promising these dramatic changes in body composition.

And that if you do this class that you're going to get toned, you're you're going to increase your muscle mass and get these long lean lines or you'll look

like a dancer. And so we're when we when we use that word, which we don't, toned, but when people use it, they mean increase muscle size and decrease body

fat. And the most effective and

fat. And the most effective and efficient way to accomplish that is through resistance training to increase muscle size and through nutritional

adjustments to decrease body fat.

Even if you're happy doing the Pilates and walking right now, and I'm not saying give that up because I'm a fan of all physical activity that people enjoy,

but it is not sufficient resistance.

It's not progressive resistance to stave off that age- related muscle loss that I mentioned. All we need is two 20 minute

mentioned. All we need is two 20 minute workouts per week, full body resistance training to make a pretty powerful impact on trying to attenuate some of

that decline and losing muscle mass, increasing fall risk, fracture risk, all of those downstream health effects that

lead to an existence in your 80s or 90s that is not very functionally independent. We don't want that. And so

independent. We don't want that. And so

if we know we can implement this and it's not that much of a time investment, it's not that much of a financial investment, it's kind of a no-brainer.

>> I'm so glad you mentioned the genetic piece. Um because

piece. Um because genetics are huge when it comes to, you know, lean mass to non-lean mass body ratio. People don't I mean obviously

ratio. People don't I mean obviously people over consume calories. They're

going to gain weight. Some people more quickly than others perhaps. Um but you know it's it's such a big factor. It

seems to me that so is um h someone having done strength and speed sports when they were younger. Like you look at someone who is a gymnast, um a sprinter,

a pole vter, a competitive tennis player, any a lot of like speed type movement and I've noticed even when they just do yoga or something in their 30s, I know this because as a graduate

student, as you know, right in your when I was in my 20s and then a posttock in my 30s, you know, I was exercising less and the people around you are exercising less. just doing experiments all the

less. just doing experiments all the time and studying all the time and some people just seem to stay really fit through that and you go like what do you do and they're like oh I just like these days I just do yoga did you play a sport in high school yeah it was like you know

D1 soccer gymnast and I do think that people who play these competitive sports early in life they hold on to a certain amount of musculature now maybe there's a selection bias that led them to be a D1 athlete combined with training right

so they were kind of had genetics that then they built on but what I'm I I feel like these situations are very misleading And with men it tends to be misleading

where somebody is extremely muscular and lean. I think of my friend Nimma. He

lean. I think of my friend Nimma. He

does a podcast with Mark Bell. Um Sema

is completely steroid and TRT free. He

really is. I I believe him and and is actually to speak to your earlier point his testosterone he sh he's he shown his charge to somewhere in like the mid5s.

The guy is like his muscle density is insane. He's got he walks around with 8%

insane. He's got he walks around with 8% body fat. he's a terrific athlete, etc.

body fat. he's a terrific athlete, etc. He has genetic gifts that he's built upon with very hard work. So, I can't look at him and say, "Oh, I'm going to just do what he does, right?" The

parallel in women's fitness, and I don't want to discount the, you know, the women out there who want to be very, very muscular, but let's just consider the averages here. They might look at

their Pilates teacher and she might have been a gymnast who was also slightly genetically gifted and now can just do that. No one talks about this and it

that. No one talks about this and it really contorts people's thinking and people are trying to figure out what to do, what to eat, etc. So, I'd love for you to elaborate on this a bit more where if you think it's appropriate, but

like no one acknowledges this.

>> I share your hypothesis about the activity you do as a kid. Even if you don't become an elite athlete, I think that is something that does kind of

stick with you. And let's say you were a child gymnast and then you pick up lifting in your 20s. I see women develop

that upper body strength a lot more easily because I think they were doing that in in childhood. I the

genetic variability is huge because it's the structure um our our bone structure our muscle insertions

uh the size of our waist. There are

certain things that we can't change. You

can't change your shape. Yes, we can gain fat, lose fat, gain muscle, lose muscle, but some people have naturally broader shoulders or have delt

insertions that mean they have that look of these capped shoulders or they just don't carry a lot of body fat on their

arms or on their legs. And so the way that where we tend to store fat or or distribute that fat varies from person

to person. The place in which we lose

to person. The place in which we lose fat first and last will vary. And often

when you compare yourself to somebody with a very different structure, perhaps they have a metabolism that allows for

them to maintain a certain body weight or a certain body fat at a a really comfortable caloric intake. Whereas for

you to maintain that certain level of of body size or body fat would require a very uncomfortable unsustainable level of caloric intake and that is just is

what it is.

>> In the old days of fitness meaning when I started uh in the '9s it's not old days but here I am. Um there was this idea of ectomorph

endomorph and misomorph. We don't hear that anymore. ectomorph being very thin,

that anymore. ectomorph being very thin, long syninnowy muscles, small joints, quoteunquote hard gainer. There was a misomorph, which is the kind of, you know, more muscular, somewhat lean

perhaps. And then there was the

perhaps. And then there was the endomorph idea, somebody carrying a lot of excess body fat kind of um idea. Is

that just completely irrelevant now in terms of picking training programs? Um,

have we just really landed in a place where it's all about, hey, listen, if you're a endomorph, you're eating more than you should. There's muscle under there. Perhaps if you're an ectomorph,

there. Perhaps if you're an ectomorph, you're just, you know, maintaining a very low body weight. You need to lift more and eat more. Is there any reality to this?

>> I could be wrong, but I think those labels and those descriptors don't even come from any sort of physiology u

research or framework. I think they come from psychology, which makes no sense given that we're using them to describe how one might

expect to adapt to training. You can

say, "Oh, if you're somebody who is kind of skinny, maybe you can expect to be a hard gainer, but sometimes that's not the case at all." You see teenage boys

that were kind of skin and bones and lanky and then they start lifting and they blow up.

>> Oh, I didn't I raised my hand as you said I didn't blow up but I mean I was 61 150 lbs. Yeah. And in my first year of training I think I put on like 2530 lbs of maybe it wasn't all muscle but it

did that didn't continue. It definitely

can happen. But I also knew guys that when we finished junior high school, they were like built even though they had never touched a weight. They were

like my bulldog Costello who had these huge forearms. He never touched a weight. It was just, you know, so I do

weight. It was just, you know, so I do think the genetic variation piece is is huge. There's also the height component

huge. There's also the height component too though because if you think about if you are 5'6 and you have you know the same kind of relative muscle mass as

somebody who is 5'11 you are going to look way more muscular than the tall counterpart. So if the person who's 5'11

counterpart. So if the person who's 5'11 or 6'2 wants to look really muscular, they're going to have to put on a lot of mass because they're taller.

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let's talk about training fasted or not training fasted. I'm chuckling because,

training fasted. I'm chuckling because, you know, there are these times when I think, oh, you know, recently it got really intense online. Should women

train fasted or not train fasted? Coming

from the world of research science, which we both do, like these quote unquote battles online, they're like nothing because it's in the end it really boils down to what do we know, what do we not know? Right.

>> Right. Battles in science get down to two people looking at the same graph and arguing about it like every you know that one piece of data out on the plot.

We're not really arguing data when we're arguing um mass experience. So,

>> what is the data, the laboratory data on women training fasted in terms of fat loss, muscle gain, strength gain, and just whether or not it's a good or bad idea

on the whole. I'm glad you bring up the data piece because in some of these conversations there's a lot of

extrapolation of a potential mechanism and that's not where we lean when we develop recommendations about exercise and

nutrition. We need to look at the data

nutrition. We need to look at the data in the population of interest humans measuring the outcome we are interested

in using the intervention that we're discussing. So in the case of of of fed

discussing. So in the case of of of fed and fasted state training this has been looked at long on longer term studies.

So consistent fasted state training not just an acute bout of fasted state training. And the muscle growth and fat

training. And the muscle growth and fat loss adaptations to exercise are the same in men and in women. And there was

a a school of thought that fasted training might be beneficial for fat loss like 2012 maybe. And everyone was doing fasted cardio thinking it was going to accelerate their fat loss

because they were exercising in a in a fasted state and oxidizing more fat because they were fasted acutely. Turns out that

acute fat oxidation or fat oxidation post-workout isn't meaningful enough to offset the rest of the metabolism throughout the

day such that you don't lose more body fat long term. Now, the pendulum has kind of swung in the other direction.

And the argument is that if you're training fasted, you're going to gain fat or lose muscle. And that doesn't

make a whole lot of sense either because when we wake up in the morning, we ate dinner last night, right? We have stored glycogen. And most resistance training

glycogen. And most resistance training sessions aren't extremely glycogen depleting anyway. So unless we're going

depleting anyway. So unless we're going to do some really long form endurance training, in which case, yeah, it's probably wise to have something to eat

beforehand to fuel that that long session. The decision to train fed or

session. The decision to train fed or fasted should be based on personal preference.

>> Do you have a personal preference?

>> If I go in the morning, I always train fasted. If I go later in the day, I've

fasted. If I go later in the day, I've eaten >> caffeine before you train >> always.

>> Um, for the just general alertness or also performance-enhancing effects of caffeine, >> I notice more the general alertness, but

it's probably hard to to separate those.

I think we see more performance benefits if you go from being, you know, caffeine naive, and I am not. Um, I'm very habituated at this point, so I'm

probably not seeing that many performance benefits, but yeah, I definitely feel it when I don't have caffeine pre-workout.

>> 90% of adults in the world drink caffeine every day. And it turns out one of the hardest things to do about running a study on caffeine is getting people to not drink caffeine for like two weeks to do a wash out because

otherwise you end up studying caffeine withdrawal versus people who are continuing to drink caffeine. I spent a lot of time with this literature and it's a maddening literature. I'm right

there with you. Uh total caffeine addict and I'm cool. So I'm Andrew. I'm a

caffeine addict, you know, um and proud of it.

So, if you were going to ingest food before you train, um, and given that most resistance training sessions are

not glycogen depleting, which you said, um, is there any advantage to having some starchy carbohydrate before resistance training that's independent

of glycogen? Um, is there any value to

of glycogen? Um, is there any value to eating a given food before training?

>> Might make you feel better. you might

feel like you have more energy. You

might feel better in in the gym. Other

people feel like they have GI issues if they eat too close to a workout. And so

that's uh they'd prefer to eat afterwards. So I I think if you are

afterwards. So I I think if you are someone who wants to experiment with both, then have at it. But for

resistance training, the composition of the meal you're eating pre-workout is very unlikely to be used as fuel in that workout.

>> Really?

>> Well, if we are eating right before we train, then we still need to digest and absorb those nutrients. So, I guess it depends what it is that we're consuming.

If you're consuming uh you know one of those liquid packs that people um consume during a marathon, do you know what I mean?

>> Yeah. Like so th that's like really fast generating um but if we're if we're going to have some oats or something, then

>> if I'm eating my oats and going to the gym, I'm probably not using that as my fuel for that workout. What about

postworkout nutrition? Uh for many years there were all sorts of ideas. You have

a unique opportunity to, you know, store more glycogen. Uh to this day, I still

more glycogen. Uh to this day, I still have some fruit and some starch and a protein drink after I train. Does it

matter if it's in the first 30 to 90 minutes in terms of the adaptation? This

is all independent of um hunger and kind of what one what makes one feel better.

I'm just thinking in terms of recovering more quickly to be able to train again, get back to work and do other things.

>> So, the training is the stimulus for the adaptation or muscle growth if we're talking about resistance training. And

then the nutrition or the dietary protein can kind of optimize our results from that stimulus. And there was once a a school of thought that there was this

anabolic window and it was very narrow and you needed to slam that protein shake the second you left the gym or you know why did you even bother lifting

that day. Uh it turns out that post

that day. Uh it turns out that post resistance training that window that elevated protein synthesis is

longlasting.

We've measured this and see that it's still elevated even 24 hours after your session. Not that I'm suggesting you

session. Not that I'm suggesting you wait 24 hours to eat, but this indicates that whether you're eating within 30

minutes or 3 hours, that's not going to affect the extent to which that dietary protein can support your muscle adaptations. I saw a study, I think it

adaptations. I saw a study, I think it was about a year and a half ago that asserted that postresistance training, and I forget how long they waited postresistance training, but some period of time after resistance training that

men and women can assimilate up to 100 grams of protein, whereas previously we thought that uh one could only assimilate 30 grams of protein per

feeding. whatever became of the 30 gram

feeding. whatever became of the 30 gram limit and how does exercise impact um the amount of protein one can and

perhaps should ingest? Well, when we think about the protein that we're actually able to absorb and utilize for

muscle adaptation, it's a different question of, you know, how much can we consume and absorb because not all of the protein that we consume is going

straight into the muscle. So it's not that we should worry so much about maximizing per meal protein so much as

you go per day per week consistent protein intake and that will again support the adaptations from the stimulus that we're

getting from our training. But the idea that we're somehow gaming the system with timing or or or

dosing, it's really we need to kind of pull back the lens and think more big picture of okay, if I'm aiming for this overall protein intake, then practically it probably makes sense for me to split

that up into a couple of meals. So, what

does that look like? And then can I do that consistently? Creatine is really

that consistently? Creatine is really big these days. Everyone's talking about creatine, it seems. Creatine has been uh

around a long time. What can it do for muscle and strength? What do we know it can do for brain function? And is there anything different about the creatine women should take or the amount of

creatine women should take or when they should take it? Um I'm not familiar with this aspect of the creatine literature at all. Uh, but I hear about creatine

at all. Uh, but I hear about creatine just about every day.

>> Yeah, it's having a a renaissance. Um,

but for women, it's still the same. It's

just creatine monohydrate. Often uh

packaged in gummy form, which you should be careful about because gummy supplements often don't contain the dose

that they claim to contain. Uh, someone

actually analyzed a bunch of creatine gummies, top selling brands on Amazon, and some of them contained virtually no creatine.

>> Really?

>> Yeah. So, be careful about the gummies.

They're often >> they they spray the gummy with the kind of solution on top afterwards. And so,

it can Anyway, I I would go with a powder form of creatine monohydrate um over a gummy. It can get you an extra

rep or two in the gym or cut a second off your sprint. It we're talking adaptations of that nature. It's very

safe. It's wellstudied. And so if you're somebody who is training and you're interested, then I think it's worth taking. And the kind of standard

taking. And the kind of standard recommendation would be five grams per day. And if you're not exercising, I

day. And if you're not exercising, I really wouldn't bother taking creatine.

It's not going to just increase muscle mass when you're when you don't have the stimulus for muscle growth. So, this is

a a an appropriate supplement for people who are exercising. And the claims about brain health, I think, are premature

because the data that we have to date are people in some kind of a deficit. So

they were Alzheimer's patients. They

were clinically depressed and also taking SSRIs. They were undergoing

taking SSRIs. They were undergoing extreme sleep deprivation.

They had a traumatic brain injury. This

is really interesting literature, but I think it's been repackaged to tell people that you're getting some sort of

cognitive boost with creatine. And

that's not the same as, oh, this could be helpful for these clinical populations with some sort of of potential creatine brain creatine deficit.

>> It will increase uh creatinine levels on a blood chart. Is that right?

>> Often it will. Yes.

>> Because that that will spike into the quote unquote red zone. It'll spike

high. Um is there any My understanding is there's no reason to be concerned about that if that spike of the creatinine levels are because of taking creatine. That's right. And you just

creatine. That's right. And you just need to tell your physician that you're taking it because otherwise they likely would be concerned, but that's it's normal. That's just breaking down

normal. That's just breaking down creatine.

>> And is it still true that the long-term data show no danger of taking creatine on the order of five grams per day for years? Is that still true?

years? Is that still true?

>> That's still true. It's one of the most studied supplements out there.

>> What's your take on uh the various forms of creatine? Um, monohydrate is the most

of creatine? Um, monohydrate is the most typical form, but I see a lot of different versions. There's a I think

different versions. There's a I think it's a well, I won't name brands. Um,

not because I'm trying to hide that because I can't remember, but um, some people want more water drawn to the muscle and less subcutaneous water. Is

there any evidence that the it can be directed that way by way of the form of creatine?

No, I mean creatine monohydrate is definitely the most studied form and so people are are trying to to introduce these and with the kind of claim that

that somehow it would be better or that um you know you won't bloat as much.

I've seen that particularly marketed to women, but it doesn't really end up working that way because just because it's um it's breaking down more in your

liquid, right? It doesn't mean that it's

liquid, right? It doesn't mean that it's absorbed differently when you actually consume it. So even if you were to just

consume it. So even if you were to just dry scoop creatine and just chase it with water, the results are the same as if you blend it up until there's

literally no bits left in the glass.

>> For two scientists to have an I have a friend who told me kind of conversation is a little bit non-scientific, but I have a friend, she's a woman, she started taking creatine, she started

resistance training. um not in that

resistance training. um not in that order and she's getting great results and loves it and she's totally into the fact that now she can do three full range pull-ups and it's just awesome to see her progression and hear her

excitement around it. She was fit before now she's just really charged up about this and she said she was reporting her experience. She said, "You know, when I

experience. She said, "You know, when I take uh uh five grams of creatine um I feel like it kind of makes me uh blurry, like there's a lot of subcutaneous water

I hold. Then when I take three, that

I hold. Then when I take three, that doesn't happen.

This is a more general question that I have about how to deal with people's individual experience. I mean, you never

individual experience. I mean, you never want to argue with somebody's individual experience. I believe her. She knows her

experience. I believe her. She knows her better than anyone. And yet, my understanding is that there's no data to support that. So I'm asking you about

support that. So I'm asking you about creatine but thematically I'm asking you as a scientist who's online dealing with questions all the time who has their own

individual experience. How do you want

individual experience. How do you want people to think about a situation like that for creatine but for anything? Hey

when I some people say hey I take creatine and I lose hair and you like there's no evidence of that. But then

they go no I think my hair falls out.

You know what do you do? How do you specifically deal with that?

>> Well, I think some people are online for others to validate their own personal experiences. And in that situation, you

experiences. And in that situation, you say, "I respect your experience." And

you walk away. There are other people who are online with with genuine questions sometimes because they've heard that this was their friend's experience or they've seen another post

about it and they're actually open to the information. And those are the

the information. And those are the people that are worth the time investment to connect with because they're genuinely interested in the

science and interested in learning and it's it's not about proving them wrong because that's a losing battle.

>> There is another phenomenon not just online where there's a lot of distrust in formal academic science nowadays. There are a

lot of reasons for this. um it social media being one of them, but this was building up for a long period of time.

And I think as a woman in this area of research and public education, I think it's tricky when we look back, you know, 25 years and we were told, oh yeah, you know, if you work out with weights, put

on muscle, but then it all turns to fat if you stop. It's like, you know, uh if you take creatine, it's going to destroy your kidneys. You know, it's going to

your kidneys. You know, it's going to mess up your hormone cycles, especially if you're a woman and it's going to mess with pregnant.

Are there any things that you hear circulating now that you would like to see explored in a formal rigorous way cuz you think they could really help

clarify and help people?

>> I think we don't understand a lot about these body composition changes that some women experience and others don't

through the menopause transition. And

one of the the big complaints that a lot of women have is this kind of redistribution of body fat or preferential growth of body fat in

the midsection. And you could speculate

the midsection. And you could speculate that it's estrogen receptor related perhaps, but we don't have human data to

support that. And whenever you make a

support that. And whenever you make a claim about estrogen specifically or loss of estrogen, then you have to think, well, if it's only that, then it

should be everybody who experiences it because post-menopause, you're on the same boat, right? And so it has to be more complicated than that. And and most things, as you know, physiologically,

it's it's rarely just one thing and that one thing can explain. So I think that deserves more exploration

>> and I think we need to do a better job with science communication because unfortunately the internet is sort of taking it by storm and on one hand I'm

thinking it's cool that there's this interest in science that people want that PubMed ID and people are asking for data but the flip side of it is that not

everybody body has, you know, the tool or the skill set to to interpret the the full paper. And so then people are using

full paper. And so then people are using science as a way to cherrypick or to

pro promote a message that isn't really reflective of the literature as a whole.

And that's really challenging for the confused woman on social media, for the fitness coach or personal trainer who is

trying to help that woman out, and for the scientist who looks around and says, "Hey, this is sort of a weaponization of science because it's you're not being

true to the literature."

That said, an individual study is not designed to tell any one person exactly how to eat or how to train or how many

steps to take or what supplements to take. So, yes, we need to be

take. So, yes, we need to be evidence-based. Yes, we need to be

evidence-based. Yes, we need to be honest about what the the science says, what we do and do not know. But of

course, there's going to be a component of individualization when you as actually make decisions about what behaviors to engage in.

>> Spectacular answer. I I would love to see the study that you described done.

Is it possible to look at receptor distributions in adult humans using some imaging technique so that um or do you have to biopsy fat and muscle from the midsection to get a sense of like

estrogen receptor density and saturation? the biopsy would be the way

saturation? the biopsy would be the way to go. And a unfortunately fat biopsy is

to go. And a unfortunately fat biopsy is even more uncomfortable than a muscle biopsy.

>> Ouch. Yeah. Wouldn't it be wonderful if there were imaging techniques that would allow people to go into a scanner and you'd get distribution of estrogen receptors, distribution of testosterone receptors, and saturation, how many

bound it would be wonderful. These I

mean medical imaging can get us there, I think. Hopefully, you know.

think. Hopefully, you know.

>> Yeah. I mean it would be really powerful because even when we think about any biopsy study, we're taking 50 to 100

milligrams of tissue out of a single muscle or or site and then making a lot of extrapolations based on this tiny amount of tissue. We're saying is this

representative of the the whole muscle?

Is this representative of other muscles in the body? Um, and if we're doing a kind of pre-post design, then when you go back in, um, is it possible that the

adaptations along that same muscle could vary slightly? So there's a lot of uh

vary slightly? So there's a lot of uh limitations to what is a a very cool very valuable technique. But I think

when we when we talk about the a biopsy and what we're getting from that, we do need to acknowledge that we're making a lot of assumptions based on that tiny amount of tissue.

>> Earlier you said that where people store fat has a genetic component. So, as

uncomfortable as the experiment might seem to people, um, is it fair to say if you want to know where you have a propensity to store fat, look at your parents?

>> Maybe, but there are lifestyle considerations certainly that go along with that. So, I

think genetics is our starting point, but it doesn't dictate our end point. And so if

you have parents who have never really paid attention to their diet, have never really engaged in sport or structured

exercise or resistance training, then how they fare through the aging process does not have to be the same experience for you.

>> I'm just trying to think of how the site of fat storage would be encoded genetically. I'm guessing like more

genetically. I'm guessing like more atyposytes like at certain locations. Um, and of course there's a there's a male female difference. There tends to be a male

difference. There tends to be a male female difference that presumably depends on androgen and estrogen receptors, but I'm not an expert in that um issue specifically.

>> Some would hypothesize that though there's a kind of reproductive advantage to having more fat around the hips. And

so then um across the menopause transition when you no longer have that reproductive function then that explains

the reason why you would start to gain more fat around the midsection and lose fat around the hips. Do we have the data to to support that? Not really. This is

more kind of looking back at evolutionary biology and kind of trying to piece things together as to why it might be the case. That said, not all

men have what we would say, you know, male pattern fat distribution and not all women have what we would say is female pattern fat distribution. So,

yes, you're right that there there's a tendency to have, you know, one or the other, but it it's not necessarily a one-sizefits-all.

Speaking of hormones, let's talk about the uh most um you know barbedwire hormone of them all,

which is cortisol. Um you know, I won't belabor this conversation with this because I've said it many times before, but you want high cortisol in the morning. It's why you wake up in the

morning. It's why you wake up in the morning. You want your cortisol low at

morning. You want your cortisol low at night before you go to sleep in the last hours before sleep. That sets you up for a lot of great things. And that's true for men and women. Um,

but cortisol and women and women's fitness has become like a real hot bed of misinformation.

>> Mhm.

>> It's the first time I've ever used that word on this podcast. Misinformation.

It's such a loaded word and it's but I think it's appropriate here because I you hear all the time, you know, c if you stress your cortisol goes up. If you uh people will say if you cold plunge, your

cortisol goes up. And if your cortisol goes up, you're gonna you're going to get moon face and you're going to store body fat around your midsection, which is true if somebody has Cushing syndrome, which is, you know,

pathologically high levels of cortisol.

But please clarify, educate.

>> Yeah. And and you hear, oh, never do zone 2 training because of cortisol.

Don't do highintensity training because of cortisol. And so then you're stuck

of cortisol. And so then you're stuck with these women who are thinking that you know any intensity is is bad because

of cortisol. A as you said this is real

of cortisol. A as you said this is real manifestations of Cushing syndrome that are being kind of twisted to say hey are

you a little stressed? Have you gained some fat around your midsection? It must

be cortisol. So, it's a really compelling pitch to people usually to sell them some ineffective cortisol reducing supplement which we don't need

and they don't work. Uh, if you actually have chronically elevated cortisol, then you need to be treated with medication, not some natural supplement. So, I think

the important point here is that those cortisol increases are normal and necessary. It it's also

necessary. It it's also necessary for blood pressure regulation, blood glucose regulation. That's

important for exercise. And th those acute fluctuations are not contributing to fat storage or inability to lose fat.

>> Yeah. presumably

in the population of people who try and um self soothe with eating excess calories when they're stressed that the correlation just becomes to them obvious but it's like cryptic correlation as we

call it right because two things are happening. They're stressed and they're

happening. They're stressed and they're eating more and yes their cortisol is probably elevated. So it all hangs

probably elevated. So it all hangs together rationally but the food part is never really discussed. how being

stressed causes some people to eat far less and how being stressed causes some people to eat far more in particular unhealthy foods. So, I feel like the the

unhealthy foods. So, I feel like the the real world puzzle pieces kind of fit together at the level of kind of perfect storm of people with thinking that

cortisol is the culprit, forgetting what cortisol does to eating when food is most likely the I don't like to call food a culprit, but in this

instance, I think it's appropriate.

Well, I think that is not a exciting message that makes you feel like >> really.

>> So, if you say, "Oh, you know, what's your diet look like?" No, we we as humans, we want a different answer. We

want to look for something else to blame. And so, the flavor of this year

blame. And so, the flavor of this year or maybe the last couple years has definitely been cortisol. Maybe we'll

move on to blame a different hormone in in 2026.

>> Just as supplements go through broad trends, hormones go through broad trends, neurotransmitters. Like a few

trends, neurotransmitters. Like a few years back, it was all oxytocin.

Everything was oxytocin. Then it was serotonin. Dopamine had its big moments.

serotonin. Dopamine had its big moments.

And um and then now it really does seem to be like cortisol is the thing. Um and

I I'm only being half facitious. I mean,

I love that people are interested in this stuff and they want to learn. I

think can't give them so much detail that they you know dissolve into a puddle of their own confusion and yet the oversimplification can be tough

>> and Cushing syndrome is not very common.

It's typically you know a manifestation of somebody who's taking a lot of of steroids and then you you're ending up with this chronically elevated cortisol

as a side effect. And so it's not the case that everybody on the internet actually has Cushing syndrome and should be concerned and and needs to go see an

endocrinologist. It's more the case that

endocrinologist. It's more the case that people are are again borrowing from some of the side effects of Cushing syndrome

and then kind of tugging at at people's vulnerabilities and desires to change their body composition and saying, you know, it's not your behaviors, it's not

your lifestyle, it's your cortisol. Mhm.

As you and I both know, a good solid resistance training session of about, you know, 30 minutes to an hour will triple or quadruple circulating cortisol levels. Uh I think if people understood

levels. Uh I think if people understood that they they might look at cortisol a little bit differently. How do you think people should feel when they finish a workout? I know that might seem very

workout? I know that might seem very subjective, but it's something that we can all get in touch with because I know that if I train for an hour or 75

minutes, feel great. If I push hard past 90 minutes in the gym, I'm pretty depleted for a while. And often times that leads to less progress and minor,

you know, uh I think more susceptibility to infection and things like that. Is it

reasonable to assume that cortisol is somehow involved? Is overtraining at the

somehow involved? Is overtraining at the level of an individual workout a real thing? Most importantly, how should

thing? Most importantly, how should people walk out of the gym feeling, assuming they're sleeping well and the rest of their life is in order?

>> I think most people are not at risk of overtraining. I think especially

overtraining. I think especially your average female population. I I

think there are issues with female athletes certainly, but I think there's a lot of concern about, you know, needing recovery or or or inflammation

that it's probably overblown because, you know, true overtraining, we get red flags that would manifest in other ways.

So, you would have difficulty sleeping or you would feel sore for days and and really underreovered or under the weather and and those might be some signs that you're you're really

overdoing it. But I I so I think it's

overdoing it. But I I so I think it's probably not an issue for most people, but I think some days it depends on when

we're training, what time of day we're training. And that might dictate your

training. And that might dictate your personal decisions for how hard to push, and how long to train. There are some people if they train in the evening,

then that disrupts their sleep. And

there are other people who when they they train in the morning and feel like that's a a great start to their day.

Really pushes energy and productivity for the rest of the day.

>> Are you a morning trainer or an evening trainer?

>> I prefer mornings. I'll go in the afternoon. I won't go in the evening. I

afternoon. I won't go in the evening. I

don't like it. What about you?

>> I used to train in the afternoon evenings when I was in college and then over the years I've just shifted to training in the morning. I would like everyone to ask themselves um

the following question. I if you train at different times of day, does it impact your energy the rest of the day?

Because what I've found, and this is less about my experience, I I the reason I like to prompt people's questions about themselves is if I >> do resistance training before say 10:00

a.m., I have more energy all day long.

a.m., I have more energy all day long.

If I do it somewhere around noon, 2:00 p.m., I just afterwards I'm just beat.

p.m., I just afterwards I'm just beat.

And I like to think that I'm dare I say riding the morning cortisol wave and I'm or collapsing whatever cortisol I'm getting from my training into that and I just feel really good. I don't like to

train in after 2 p.m. because I like to drink a lot of

2 p.m. because I like to drink a lot of caffeine before I train and it messes up my sleep.

>> I do not like to train uncaffeinated. So

that's the biggie for me. Um, but in college when I was more of going to sleep at midnight, 1:00 am, and sleeping in till, you know, 8 or 9ine because I could afford to do that, I'd go to the

gym at night. And it's also when it was social and it I think some of those factors change over time.

>> Yeah. I think one thing to keep in mind for people is if you are used to training at a certain time of day and then you switch it, particularly if you transition from late afternoon or

evening training to morning training, you might see a kind of hit in performance initially, but that should resolve in a couple weeks.

>> Mhm. Cardio whenever because I don't need caffeine to do it, >> but I prefer caffeine to do it. Prefer

caffeine for most things. What are your thoughts on hormone therapies that are not replacement? And I'm not talking

not replacement? And I'm not talking about blasting anabolic steroids. I'm

talking about because this is happening in now in mass with women be because of the understandable um interest in hormone replacement therapy for

permenopause, menopause, um estrogen therapy, testosterone therapy. So for a woman who feels like, hey, like they're feeling less vigor, their sleep, muscle,

etc., and they get, it's very easy nowadays to find a doctor to prescribe them estrogen or testosterone cream or a injection. They're like, I feel awesome.

injection. They're like, I feel awesome.

I talked to someone the other day. I'm

taking this I think it's progesterone. I

have to be I a progesterone. And she

said, I feel awesome. The progesterone

thing fixed my sleep. I have so much energy. I'm up in the morning. She's

energy. I'm up in the morning. She's

like, I feel like I did in my 30s. It's

now we're not talking supplements.

>> We're talking prescription drugs.

>> But none of them had a measurable deficiency. They're just giving some

deficiency. They're just giving some what I call hormone augmentation. It's,

you know, and and the language gets tricky here. They're just augmenting

tricky here. They're just augmenting their hormone levels. So, they're going from whatever they were to higher, >> and they are thrilled about it. I don't

know that they're not creating other issues, but I think we're going to see tons of this in the years to come.

Menopause hormone therapy, you know, as you said, is not intended to replace because you're not supposed to have the same hormone levels after menopause that

as you did premenopause. So, the goal there with these estrogenbased therapies is really to target symptoms, not to

treat to a hormone level. And there's a wealth of data that this can be really effective for symptom management, which

has a ton of downstream effects. So, we

don't have good data to to suggest that it is going to attenuate the loss of muscle mass or increase muscle mass. But

if you're somebody who is suffering with with hot flashes and poor sleep and night sweats and then you can get some relief from that, then certainly you're

more likely to be adherent to your diet or or going to the gym on a on with greater frequency and feeling better.

And so we can't discount the ability to lean on some of these to to improve the way that you feel. The

testosterone conversation gets a little bit trickier because right now it's really only kind of proven to be

effective for low sexual desire, low libido in women. And so there are a lot of people who are experimenting with it for other reasons.

But we need to remember that the testosterone levels that that people are are using or should be using for for this kind of supplement are fairly low

because you're trying to to treat to low normal. And then if you start to go

normal. And then if you start to go beyond that low normal, then we can get a lot of those unwanted side effects that we would get if we were taking

testosterone for the bodybuilding purpose. And so you might see voice

purpose. And so you might see voice deepening or unwanted hair growth or we so that's typically why I if you're a

woman you you'd only want to use this in really low doses and we don't have the evidence to say that that low dose is going to do anything for muscle and it's

probably not worth the risk to take the the high dose when you could just lift weights.

>> When you could just lift weights. Thank

you for entertaining that somewhat, you know, tricky question because I think we're we're in a um we're in a whole new

self-directed medical care landscape.

Meaning, even if people are working with doctors, they can generally find a doctor to make them feel better, even if it's not dealing with the specific issue. We need to be careful with the

issue. We need to be careful with the hormone therapy conversation though because the data to date doesn't support

the use of it for preventing cognitive decline or preventing cardiovascular disease. And there's a lot of messaging

disease. And there's a lot of messaging out there that is sort of telling women if you don't take hormone therapy you're

doomed. And that's not accurate. and

doomed. And that's not accurate. and

some women can't take hormone therapy.

So, we we need to kind of hold two truths where this is is really powerful and can be really effective for symptoms. Perhaps down the road we'll learn that it has these other other

benefits or it could go the other direction. You know, we've uh we don't

direction. You know, we've uh we don't know. but prematurely making claims

know. but prematurely making claims about all of these benefits that it's going to, you know, improve your your

lifespan, increase longevity, prevent disease. That's not accurate and women

disease. That's not accurate and women need to understand that something can be really valuable but not a panacea, right?

>> Do you feel isolated because you're like won't join this, hey, things are different for women message? Well, if it were true, I would say it. I mean, when

I got into this field, of course, that was a question. That was one of the major questions that I had. And at the the time, there were reasonable

hypotheses to explore. And as

scientists, we test those and then we look at the data and we form our opinions based on the data. As a woman,

if I honestly thought there were things we should do differently to optimize our results, of course, I would be doing them myself and telling other women to

do them, too.

But the narrative that women need a sexsp specific program or nutrient

timing guidance or a particular intensity of exercise or rep range or

all of it. It makes women feel like they're being spoken to and being considered and then they're part of this community

instead of oh, you know, just do what your boyfriend does or what your husband does or so the narrative is very much um we know this works for men but women are

not men and so obviously women need something different. The data says

something different. The data says men and women respond to exercise very similarly. I think the fitness space is

similarly. I think the fitness space is so saturated that a lot of people think they need to kind of reinvent the wheel

or that message that you and I have discussed which is you know consistent effective progressive training that's it's not exciting enough that doesn't give you the edge and so you need

something else and that something else is often misinformation or something that just over complicates everything

and makes but when it's more complicated people are convinced that you know something they don't and that's why misinformation spreads >> I don't think it could be made any

clearer and I I appreciate your directness about it um the scientist in you the uh the person who looks at data

comes absolutely clear in that statement >> and I'll say this when I explored menstrual cycle phases is yes I was interested in you know were would there

be differences in these different hormone profiles but the other reason the more exciting take-home from the fact that there was no difference is one

of the biggest reasons why we don't have as much data in female participants is because of the challenge associated with standardizing

the testing and the training and the recruitment for people with equal length phases and standardizing ovulation timing and excluding people who are on

contraceptives and it it adds in a whole study on top of a study. And so if we don't have to do that anymore, think about all the research we can do in

women or in mixed sex samples or in combined people on and off contraceptives, especially for sports

science labs with fewer resources.

they can be part of that mission to do more research in women if we don't have to worry about what was a huge barrier historically.

>> There are more funds now being directed towards um studies that include women or are solely directed at women's health

and fitness. um having not come through

and fitness. um having not come through science through that uh portal, I'm curious about how experiments are done in terms of resistance training and

muscle growth and strength um increases.

Um I'm familiar with some of Brad's work and your work. Um do you think it replicates the gym well enough? I'm not

being critical. I just, you know, I've seen studies where it's like, oh, you know, leg extension, you know, and then you look at looking at one rep max on the curl or I'm not saying you guys did those studies, but a lot of times I

think untrained subjects who then, you know, trained for eight weeks doing something and it it's hard for me to know if if it really carries over. It could. I mean, I

ran a lab where we used VR to study stress. You'd say, 'Well, is that real?

stress. You'd say, 'Well, is that real?

It's better than just showing people pictures on a screen, but it's not like real life stress, right?

>> You know, we had a falling thing and yeah, people think they're falling. We

actually had people fall and physically in the lab think because the visual world's going up in VR, but it's not like falling off a building. So, are the studies of resistance training that you

one can do in a lab, gymlab, do you like them? Are you satisfied with what's there in in a lot of cases? Well,

I've been involved in those more, you know, realworld gym like program studies

and with that increase in ecological validity you sacrifice some of the measurements that you can do. you take away some of that

really tight control um or within subject designs where you're having you know one leg perform one protocol and another leg perform another um so I

think there's a time and a place for both but if we want to look at molecular signaling if we want to do these tighter

controls where we just want to know that there was a a sufficient exercise stimulus and it's not necess necessarily about the fact that it was a leg

extension versus a realworld leg training program, >> then those are those are better. Um

because that kind of a study is not designed to say and therefore everyone should do unilateral leg extensions.

It's designed to say under these conditions, you know, with this hormone profile or with this infusion of

nutrition, then what happens to protein synthesis? And that can be um powerful

synthesis? And that can be um powerful and controlled in a way that a lot of the more translational exercise science

studies are not. So I think both are important but it really depends on the research question as to which is the most appropriate design.

>> How long have you been training?

>> 14 years something like that.

>> So with that caveat uh what is people are going to want to know. Uh what what is your um kind of rout general routine now? Does it and how much does it look

now? Does it and how much does it look like or differ from what you described earlier.

>> It's definitely changed over the years.

Uh, I went through phases of really trying to maximize strength and I got injured a lot. And then when I' I've

been in in phases of doing data collection, I've had to really scale back from my training because your

schedule is not your own. And now I'm at a point where I like more frequency. So,

I tend to go more often, but um not necessarily for really long sessions.

So, I go for a half hour, sometimes 45 minutes, but I like to go more frequently because then I feel like I'm better at kind of keeping up with the habit.

>> And so, right now, I do a split of an upper body push, an upper body pull, and a lower body. And I just kind of rotate through that.

>> So, do you take a day off after six days of that? So, push pull legs, push pull

of that? So, push pull legs, push pull legs, take a day off.

>> Or sometimes I'll do push pull legs and take a day off and then push pull legs and take another day off. I'm not as kind of strict with it because it does depend on my weekly schedule. But that

rotation kind of allows me to always be able to go in and pick up where I left off.

>> And you're doing the sets presumably the way you described before, getting close to failure or going to failure.

>> Yeah, I will typically get close to failure. Occasionally I will go to

failure. Occasionally I will go to failure. It kind of depends on the

failure. It kind of depends on the exercise, you know. I think if you're doing something particularly machine-based, then going to failure is like pretty risk-free. Either the weight

moves or it doesn't. And cardio in addition to that dedicated cardio >> I will do some

but not regularly because I tend to be physically active hiking with my dogs

and uh I I prefer to be outside if I can um getting my physical activity than you know on a stairmaster on an incline treadmill. But I'll do it if the

treadmill. But I'll do it if the weather's bad. I think the routine you

weather's bad. I think the routine you just described sounds really doable. The

routine you described earlier sounds really doable. Do you think mobility

really doable. Do you think mobility work is important um for women or men?

Dedicated mobility work. Not really.

Because I think if you are doing full body training through a full range of motion, then as you are warming up with those lighter sets and making sure that you are moving through your full range

of motion, you're already getting that built-in mobility work. So, if it makes you feel good, then great. But I think

a, you know, a dynamic general warm-up versus a specific like let's do some of the target exercise with lighter loads

and move through that. They can be equally effective.

>> Want to make sure I double click on something you said earlier. you said the long-term out uh outcomes of these um hormone replacement therapy studies on

women uh do do not show uh improvements in cognition etc. My understanding of the of that large data set was that women who started hormone replacement

therapy as they entered menopause fared better than those that didn't. But those

that started it after menopause, it didn't turn out well. Maybe I'm not up on the latest of these.

>> Well, it it depends which outcome you're you're interested in, but you know, one of the biggest issues historically was in the early 2000s, you

know, women's health initiative was doing a set of of studies looking at hormone therapy. it was older uh

hormone therapy. it was older uh versions of hormone therapy. But

ultimately the the goal was to evaluate the utility of that estrogen-based hormone therapy for reduced risk of

cardiovascular disease. and they stopped

cardiovascular disease. and they stopped one of the trials early because they saw that, you know, it wasn't reducing risk and that perhaps it was going in the

other direction and so they couldn't ethically continue the trial. But the

media had a field day with this and kind of twisted things and the then the message to the public was that hormone therapy

causes heart disease. hormone therapy

causes cancer. And it it took a lot of years to really unpack that to say, okay, what does the data actually say?

What was that study designed to assess?

Because it's one of the largest data sets to date on all sorts of outcome measures. But what it doesn't say is,

measures. But what it doesn't say is, you know, a blanket statement, hormone therapy is terrible for this person or

for that reason or here is when everyone needs to start it because to your point, there were people who were a variety of

ages and and menopause status. So

there's work that has come out since looking more specifically at outcomes like muscle mass, bone density,

cognitive health. And then there's also

cognitive health. And then there's also trials that are more observational in nature or cross-sectional and saying, you know, can we look at this for to

identify some patterns that we could then go investigate in a clinical trial.

And there's a tendency to kind of jump the gun and say, well, based on this potential pattern, then it looks like

there might be this health benefit. And

then the message gets misconstrued into if you take it, you know, you'll never get Alzheimer's or you'll never get dementia. And that's not an appropriate

dementia. And that's not an appropriate representation of the data.

>> I'm just curious. Uh, so deliberate cold exposure, yay, nay, meh. Depends.

>> Depends. I think the most compelling benefits are probably the kind of mental clarity and and psychological well-being as opposed to the physiology.

>> Zone two, >> it's fine. It's certainly necessary with long-term endurance training goals, but if you prefer higher intensity or other

forms of moderate physical activity, then do that instead.

>> Weight vests >> skip.

>> Really? I'm surprised you please tell me more.

>> Because weighted vests are being marketed to women as an alternative for resistance training.

>> Oh, >> walking with a weighted vest. And so

walking with a weighted vest is not going to improve muscle or bone. It's

not the appropriate stimulus. So if you want to use the vest to maybe do some squats or lunges or jumping exercises, then that might be an an appropriate uh

use case for it. But just going on walks with with a weighted vest is not a a substitute for resistance training.

armhang test uh as an indirect measure of longevity.

>> I would skip that. I think we have a lot of data in grip strength because grip strength is really easy to measure in clinical settings in people who have never exercised including people who are

on bed rest. So we know there's a relationship between grip strength and you know quote unquote longevity because grip grip strength is a proxy for overall strength. So instead of worrying

overall strength. So instead of worrying about testing or training grip strength, we should be focusing on doing our full body resistance training, >> jumping up onto or off of things

specifically to get uh a longevity or safety effect.

>> I'd rather incorporate some sort of balance training into your resistance training session. So, we could do that

training session. So, we could do that through unilateral exercises or through something like a walking lunge. And then

we're making sure that we're kind of working in full ranges of motion in different planes of motion because that way if we have good balance and we have

our strength and muscle mass and we're able to coordinate that movement, then if we start to fall, we'll also be able to catch ourselves.

>> Dedicated abdominal work. And if it's a yes, what's your favorite recommendation?

>> Any kind of abdominal exercise is not going to burn off your belly fat. So if

you want to hypertrophy your rectus abdominis, then you need to treat it like any other muscle group and load it

progressively. But I think most women

progressively. But I think most women who are doing hundreds of crunches are hoping that it's going to make them leaner, not that it's going to grow

their abs.

>> Favorite um exercise that you don't see people doing that they might want to try with the appropriate instruction.

just like a fun one that you like or >> I like a single leg RDL Romanian deadlift and you can hold on to something and so you're getting kind of

a a good glute and hamstring on a single side and you can also incorporate a kind of balance component into that if you don't want to hold on

to something for stability. I like to put one of those barbell pads on a low bar in a squat rack. So then you can put the top of your foot on the pad and it's

more comfortable than putting your foot on the bench.

>> And do you hold the dumbbell on the the side that's doing the work or on the side uh that with the leg back when you do those?

>> You can do it either way. I prefer the let the to hold it on the same side.

>> Last question. Is there anything that's been scientifically shown to accelerate recovery from resistance training? Not

just move out soreness, although if it does that, great, but to accelerate recovery, meaning to get you from the stimulus to the adaptation more quickly.

>> A lot to attenuate soreness, but to accelerate the adaptation. If you want to accelerate recovery, then you're

potentially compromising adaptation. So,

ice baths are a perfect example of that.

You know, you're getting more recovery, but you're possibly blunting the hypertrophic stimulus. So,

hypertrophic stimulus. So, same with NSAIDs.

>> Same with NSAIDs. Yeah. Um, they will block hypertrophy because they reduce inflammation, >> right? Right. And we want that

>> right? Right. And we want that inflammation at least, you know, short term.

>> Well, Lauren, uh, Dr. Ken, so simple.

Um, this was amazing. Uh, first of all, thank you so much for, uh, coming here and and talking with us with the audience today. Um, thank you for being

audience today. Um, thank you for being a rational scientific voice online. I

will say with a high degree of confidence that what you described before that, you know, it's very hard to get attention for the basics and for

what's known in a landscape where, you know, other things seem to lend favor. I

think there's been a lot of that now and I I'm confident that you're going to be the signal in a lot of noise. Um, so

that things invert. Uh, and it's a wonderful thing that you're doing what you're doing. I really appreciate the

you're doing. I really appreciate the clarity of your answers and I also have to say I really appreciate your Instagram etc. Are there other things that you're doing now that people can

find you? Yeah, I write a monthly

find you? Yeah, I write a monthly research review with three other PhDs, uh, Eric Trexler, Eric Helms, and Michael Zordos. And we release that,

Michael Zordos. And we release that, like I said, monthly. And it's all sorts of topics in health, fitness, wellness,

and we kind of break down the latest science and give you actionable take-homes. So if you're someone who

take-homes. So if you're someone who likes the deep dive into the science and also wants to know, you know, in the context of the literature as a whole, what should I do, then check out Mass Research Review.

>> Great. All right, we'll put a link to that also. Well, thank you so much. Uh

that also. Well, thank you so much. Uh

definitely come back when there are more data to discuss. Um I'm sure it won't be long and um it'll be interesting to see how the landscape changes. But like I said before, thanks for being the signal

in the noise. Appreciate you.

>> Thank you. Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Lauren Keno Simple. To learn more about her work,

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