The Most Important Career Advice You’ll Ever Hear With Harvard Business School’s #1 Professor

[Music] What makes you irreplaceable? You don't

need any more than five minutes to make a meaningful connection and to learn a lot about someone. Okay, stop. I

freaking love that. And we're all stealing that. What are the mistakes

stealing that. What are the mistakes that people make? Yeah. When they go in and they're asking for more money or a promotion. They go in sort of righteous

promotion. They go in sort of righteous and resolute thinking this is what an influential person looks like. This is

what they sound like. They're decisive.

They're convincing. They're compelling

and strong, aren't they? Humans need a lot of affirmation, Mel. And you can give it to them in these tiny little moments in your conversations with them.

Just reminding them relentlessly, hey I'm with you. I got your back. Yes

money matters tremendously. We all know that. But also, your happiness at work

that. But also, your happiness at work and outside of work so heavily rests on so many other things. That right

there is worth a million dollars. And

let me tell you why.

Hey, it's your friend Mel and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast. I am so excited that you're here. It's always such an honor to be able to spend time with you and to be together. And if you're brand

new, I just want to take a moment and welcome you to the Mel Robbins Podcast family. And because you hit play on this

family. And because you hit play on this episode and you found the time to listen to this, here's what I know about you.

You're not only the kind of person that values your time, but you have a lot of ambition and you're looking for ways to advance your career and you're in the right place. Your ambition might mean

right place. Your ambition might mean that you want to make more money or land your dream job or just get the recognition and respect that you deserve at work. Well, this conversation today

at work. Well, this conversation today is a must listen for you and for everyone that you care about because there are specific things that you can

do based on the research to get what you deserve at work and in life. Everything

that you're about to learn today comes from 15 years of research from Harvard Business School professor Allison Woodbrooks. She also has a brand new

Woodbrooks. She also has a brand new book, Talk, which is all about the science of communication, and it summarizes one of the most popular courses at HBS that she created and

teaches. Now, Professor Brooks took time

teaches. Now, Professor Brooks took time to come over from her Harvard Business School classroom over across the river in Cambridge to be here in our Boston

studios for one reason. She's doing it for you. Now, to put this in context, if

for you. Now, to put this in context, if you were to even get into Harvard Business School, I know I probably couldn't, it would cost you over

$100,000 a year to attend and today you're getting the biggest takeaways distilled down for free. So, if you have somebody in your life who needs to ask

for a promotion, or maybe there's someone that you know that is entering what is a very tough job market right now, this conversation today and everything that Professor Brooks is about to share is going to give you a

leg up and the confidence boost you need. And we're also going to get into

need. And we're also going to get into some groundbreaking research that changed my life. This is research that will help you nail any interview. It'll

help you navigate a difficult conversation and destroy that presentation that's coming up, no matter how nervous you may be. Class is in session and it's going to be a master

class at that. Professor Allison

Woodbrooks, thank you. Thank you. Thank

you for being here today. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Well, congratulations on your best-selling new book, Talk: The Science of Conversation and the Art of Being Ourselves. and I cannot wait to have you

Ourselves. and I cannot wait to have you teach us exactly what to do so that we can get ahead in our careers. We can

land our dream jobs. We can get paid what we deserve and we can manage the stress and anxiety that comes from all things about making money and truly

negotiating better. And so I just want

negotiating better. And so I just want to start by having you tell the person who's listening about your background the classes that you teach at Harvard

Business School and why they recruited you. They recruited you to come to

you. They recruited you to come to Harvard Business School to teach negotiation. Yeah, I'm a behavioral

negotiation. Yeah, I'm a behavioral scientist. I went I got my PhD at

scientist. I went I got my PhD at Wharton at the business school in Philadelphia where I studied emotions and how people feel, how they talk about their feelings and specifically in the

context of negotiations. How do we feel when we're negotiating? How we feel before we negotiate? And I was hired at the Harvard Business School to teach this course on

negotiation. And it's an incredible

negotiation. And it's an incredible course that's so valuable. We all need to learn how to negotiate more effectively. I taught that for about

effectively. I taught that for about four years and then I started to get a little itchy. I was like I think the

little itchy. I was like I think the business school might need something else in addition to this negotiation course and I so I I created a course called talk that focuses very broadly on

how to become a better conversationalist in all areas of your life. And let me just say it's not just any course. This

course has a weight list. I mean

students are trying to negotiate their way into this course. And before we jump into some of the research and the specific things that you're going to

tell us to do in order to get promoted in order to negotiate a higher salary in order to find and land our dream jobs, and to also combat the nerves that

come from negotiating and having difficult conversations at work or in our life. Can you just talk a little bit

our life. Can you just talk a little bit about some of the biggest takeaways that the person listening might find very surprising from the Harvard negotiation course? Yeah, I think when we think of

course? Yeah, I think when we think of people who when you imagine a good negotiator, I think this really tough rigid,

persuasive person comes to mind. When we

actually study people negotiating in practice in the real world, often the best negotiators are people who are just great communicators, people who have and are good at developing meaningful

relationships, who figure out how to figure out what other people need and then figure out how to actually deliver what other people need. Um, it's not about getting in there and saying like

"Give me more money or give me more power." It's literally giving people

power." It's literally giving people actually adding value and and bringing what people need to them. I want to make sure I heard you correctly because if I

think about negotiating whether it's for a higher salary or it's just trying to get the better deal at a car dealership.

Yeah. Or it is winning any kind of argument. I would think that you need to

argument. I would think that you need to be firm and blustery and know your value and kind of have the right things to say, but if I'm hearing you

correctly, you just said that the best negotiators based on the research are people that understand the needs of the person they're trying to get something

from. Of course. Yes. No negotiation

from. Of course. Yes. No negotiation

very few negotiations are about just one issue. It's not like you're going to be

issue. It's not like you're going to be doing this tugofwar push and pull on the price of a car. There are other issues that matter. For example, starting with

that matter. For example, starting with nobody wants to talk to somebody who's blustery and and decisive and harsh.

Like no one goes into an interaction wanting it to be miserable and confrontational. And so even that itself

confrontational. And so even that itself is a thing that you can deliver to them to make it more pleasant, more enjoyable. That is value that you can

enjoyable. That is value that you can bring to them. that's going to make them more likely to make a concession on price.

So, I want to take all of the research and the biggest takeaways from the incredibly popular classes that you teach at Harvard and I want to apply

them to getting ahead in your career getting a job that is your dream job and actually landing it, networking effectively, managing nerves when you

have to have tough conversations. And I want to go through

conversations. And I want to go through this one by one. What is the single biggest factor that determines whether or not somebody actually gets promoted

or paid more at work? It's so funny when we think about people who get promoted we think of these powerful people who have are sort of like masters of the universe or maybe tycoons or whatever.

In practice, the people who thrive at work, who do well, who perform well are good at conversation. They're doing a good job talking to their co-workers.

They're doing a good job talking to their investors, to their clients, to their customers, to their boss. They're

people that everyone likes working with because they're enjoyable to be around and they're bringing value. They're

working hard and bringing value to the people around them. You know, that makes sense because I remember seeing somewhere this research about the single

biggest factor that determines whether or not a woman in particular gets promoted or somebody that is a minority gets promoted. And it's whether or not

gets promoted. And it's whether or not their contributions are known. M. And if

you really stop and think, if you're somebody who is quiet and you're hoping people know what you're doing and you're not a good communicator because it's not

a skill that you've practiced or because your nerves get the best of you, then you're leaving it to hope and chance.

Yeah. That you're going to get recognized. Yeah. Because your

recognized. Yeah. Because your

contributions being known is largely determined by whether or not you can communicate effectively. Yeah. Sometimes

communicate effectively. Yeah. Sometimes

your contributions are observable without talking. Sometimes other people

without talking. Sometimes other people will notice and will say something and sort of promote about you, talk good about you, something that they've observed. But very often if you think

observed. But very often if you think about a high performer at work and you track back well how did they become known as a high performer you track the chain of information back and very often

it comes back to a point where it's like well actually he told me himself that he just won this award or that he just figured out this new problem or he figured out this new thing. So very

often it comes back around to this idea of like you if something great is happening and no one's noticing it's up to you to share it with someone. You

know, I just had this happen because you we found out that we are the number one ranked podcast in the world on Apple Podcast. I mean, it's like I never in a

Podcast. I mean, it's like I never in a million years imagined a world where I would see the Mel Robbins podcast ahead of Joe Rogan. Yeah. And

it's funny because even somebody that listens to this show twice a week, every week wouldn't know that. Yeah. Because

you're not paying attention to the charts. That's right. It's not until I

charts. That's right. It's not until I actually say that this is something that has happened that you're aware of this thing that has happened. And what's so amazing is and I almost don't want to

say it because I feel like okay, I'm bragging and then you're not going to like me and then you're going to think I'm full. Let them follow my own advice.

I'm full. Let them follow my own advice.

But what were you going to say Professor? I was going to say now that

Professor? I was going to say now that you've said it, anyone who hears this episode can then go and they can share that information. I can leave our

that information. I can leave our conversation here and I'm going to say "Guess whose podcast I got to go on?"

And it's so amazing because guess who's the number one podcast right now? It's

Mel's podcast. I wouldn't have known that except if you told me even someone who's coming to visit. So, there are so many examples of this where it wouldn't

be known unless you shared it. I think a great rule of thumb is to assume that nobody at work actually knows what you're working on. That's right. Unless

you are very good at communicating and you're making it known. Yeah. I have a question because at Harvard Business School, y'all do a lot of research on

what makes for effective CEOs and what makes for influential leaders. Yeah. At

work. And this applies to all of us this research. It's not just, you know

this research. It's not just, you know somebody in a company. This is about whether or not you do a good job leading a group of volunteers to do something.

whether or not you're a good leader in the leader league uh you know kind of system that everybody and all your friends are coaching in leadership is a function of your ability to influence

other people. So when you look at the

other people. So when you look at the research that is done at Harvard Business School what is the most kind of overlooked

skill of great leaders? Yeah, I think this is part of why my course has been such a a hit and why it sort of hit such a nerve when even when our students are in business school, they focus on hard

skills like, "Oh, I'm going to learn as much as I can about finance. I'm going

to learn as much as I can about accounting. I'm going to learn as much

accounting. I'm going to learn as much as I can about private equity." But when you revisit with actual leaders out in the world, whether it's at a very a fancy company and they're a CEO or the

manager of the night shift of the serving staff at a restaurant, every time everything they have in common they say, "I've been successful because I'm good at interacting with the people

around me. I'm I'm good at connecting

around me. I'm I'm good at connecting with people. I'm good at figuring out

with people. I'm good at figuring out what people need and helping them get it." Um, conversation is this incredible

it." Um, conversation is this incredible superpower that not enough of us are taking advantage of. Well, it's true because if I think about wanting to be successful, whether it's launching a

business or having a side hustle or just continuing to get promoted and feel like I'm growing at work or to land my dream job and network effectively. I'm

thinking more about these things I'm supposed to do, but I'm not thinking a lot about the importance of mastering the skill of communication along the way. And it is a skill. Yeah. And it and

way. And it is a skill. Yeah. And it and nowadays because of this new science of conversation, it's a more quantifiable skill than ever before. And we've

learned so much about how to build this skill. And Professor Brooks, you've

skill. And Professor Brooks, you've already said something twice now that I want to highlight that I want to make sure that the person listening caught

this because I know this is one of these conversations that is going to get shared particularly probably with parents and grandparents down to, you

know, nephews and nieces and sons and daughters around looking for jobs and actually being successful and influential in your career.

You have now said twice in talking about the science and research around being effective as a leader and a communicator that it's about helping the other person

or understanding what the other person wants and that being a key component of this skill of communication. So, if I

take that nugget and I now say "Okay, how the heck does that apply to me wanting to ask for a raise? Like

isn't there a script that I need to follow where I march in and I'm confident and I ask for what I want and negotiate in a really powerful way and that means I'm going to get it?" Yeah

we'd, like, to, I I, think, it's, easy, to think about um that someone walks in and they're confident and they say, "I deserve a raise because of X, Y, and Z."

And you lay out the data and you say "Because I'm great." and you owe this to me, right? Before you actually figure

me, right? Before you actually figure out what's in their mind. Um, what do you value in an employee? Am I doing a good job? What how can I add more value?

good job? What how can I add more value?

What could make this organization better? How could I be more pleasant to

better? How could I be more pleasant to be around? How could I be more helpful

be around? How could I be more helpful to our my colleagues? And this is not the mindset that people usually go in with. They go in with this I'm strong

with. They go in with this I'm strong and I'm going to convince you that I'm right and deserving. There are questions like, "How many other people do you have available to you that you could you you could replace me with?" That's an

important question. If that if your boss

important question. If that if your boss has a queue of 200 other resumes sitting on their desk, you're probably not in a great a very powerful position to walk in and say, "Hey, give me a raise." But

if you are bringing a lot of value and you're hard to replace, then maybe you are in a better position to talk about that. So, I just want to make sure I got

that. So, I just want to make sure I got this straight because I feel a little bad because I was out to dinner last night, believe it or not. I mean, I love

how the universe works and the person that was waiting on our table came up and it turns out that they're a huge fan of this podcast and it was really cool.

And I said, "Oh, well, what topic would you want me to cover?" And I kid you not, she said, "I'm the manager at this restaurant and next week I'm going in

and I'm asking for a raise." And I think I gave her the wrong advice. What'd you

tell her? Well, the first thing I said to her is I said, "The one thing I don't want you to do is do not look at glass door and do not find every other salary

range in your area and then assume that your boss should pay you that because that doesn't feel like you telling me that you're irreplaceable. That feels

like an ultimatum." And when somebody does that to me, it makes me go, "Okay well, if you'd like to get paid that at a different restaurant, go get that job." Yeah. And I then said to her, what

job." Yeah. And I then said to her, what I would do is I would look back through your calendar and your photographs and jog your memory and try to come up with a list of all of the problems you solve

all of the things that you do that your boss does not realize that you do. Come

up with the number of different jobs that you do, and then also come up with the reasoning behind why you want to

grow in this role. Yeah. and why that's important to you. But I didn't say, I want you to first stop and put

yourself in your boss's shoes. Yeah.

What does your boss need in an incredible manager? What makes you

incredible manager? What makes you irreplaceable? And I think that's

irreplaceable? And I think that's something that nobody is talking about.

Yeah. And or take the that you've now instructed her to make this like log of things that she's done. She could bring the log to her boss and say, "Which of these things is most valuable to you?

What do you think is what am I doing here that you love so that I can do more of that? Which of these do you think I

of that? Which of these do you think I should do less of? How can I grow in this role? What should I be doing uh

this role? What should I be doing uh differently, better, great? Which of

these are most valuable to you that make you want to hold on to me?" So, you would have that conversation before you actually have the one where you're truly asking for the promotion or the raise.

Yeah. And this is true of any conversation where you're trying to be the mindset of trying to be persuasive is a very dangerous mindset. What do you mean? There are so many conversations

mean? There are so many conversations where we go in and we often at work and we want to persuade someone to agree with us. I want to persuade my boss that

with us. I want to persuade my boss that I am deserving of a race. But the way to do that ultimately the way to be persuasive is to go in with a learning

mindset. When you go in and you try and

mindset. When you go in and you try and learn as much as you can about what's valuable to them, what's valuable to the organization, what do they love about what you're doing? What do they hate

about what you're doing? Learn, learn

learn. Ultimately, that conversation is going to feel like the two of you are solving a problem together rather than arguing and pushing and pulling and you trying to persuade them to agree with

you. And ultimately, you will

you. And ultimately, you will ironically, end up being more persuasive. Who knew that the Harvard

persuasive. Who knew that the Harvard Business School professor who teaches the course in the science of communication and negotiation would give us unbelievably amazing advice. No, I'm

not kidding because it's kind of one of those steps that's so obvious that you miss it. Yeah. Because the truth is

miss it. Yeah. Because the truth is anybody that works for me that makes my job easier, you're invaluable. Yeah.

Anybody that solves problems before they become a problem for me, you're invaluable. Yeah. You get in early, you

invaluable. Yeah. You get in early, you stay late. You're invaluable. And it's

stay late. You're invaluable. And it's

not a trick. It's not like uh you're going to this conversation and you're going to try and trick them. It's so

authentic and and rooted in reality. You

do you need to figure out what's valuable to them and then deliver it and then you become invaluable to them. Of

course, that's how that's how relationships work. That's how work

relationships work. That's how work works. I think most of us do the

works. I think most of us do the opposite. I have certainly been guilty

opposite. I have certainly been guilty when I have been an employee and I make a lousy employee because I watch what's happening in the company and then I go

"Oh, they're successful. Therefore, I

deserve more. Therefore, I am owed more." And then I start to feel entitled

more." And then I start to feel entitled and then I rehearse my little script and then I go in with my hands on my hips and my case that I'm going to make and

then it's like denied. Yeah. And that

step of going, have I even sat with my boss and asked, "What would make your life easier? What would make me

life easier? What would make me irreplaceable? What are you looking for

irreplaceable? What are you looking for me to do that I'm not doing? What are

the things that I do that you actually value? What is a total waste of time?"

value? What is a total waste of time?"

Or if you're actually feeling um sort of the social comparison thing of this high performer, you could go in and say "What are they doing that's that's awesome that I could do more of?" Make

it practical. We all do social comparison, but it's often um useless. a

sort of waste of your emotional energy.

Turn that waste into something productive, which is like so much of what we observe in other people is this sort of myth of naturalness or they're not doing that much more than me.

They're not doing anything special or that just comes naturally to them. When

you dig under the hood and you actually ask people what do they do that's that's good, how do they make people around them feel? What are what work are they

them feel? What are what work are they getting done? You realize, oh, I'm not

getting done? You realize, oh, I'm not doing that. I but I could I could try.

doing that. I but I could I could try.

So there's just a lot there's a lot more to learn there. You know, Professor Brooks, that right there is worth a million dollars. And

let me tell you why. Because typically

when you see somebody who is performing at work or they are excelling at work or they are hitting their numbers or whatever, you tend to see that example

and then you either invalidate yourself or you go only playing. And what you're saying is no

playing. And what you're saying is no no, no, no, no. There are skills, there are habits, there are patterns of behavior that this person engages in.

How about you operate for a couple weeks and you just mirror what that person is doing. Yeah. Because that person is

doing. Yeah. Because that person is demonstrating the behavior and the communication style and the work style that actually wins in this organization.

Yeah. It's it's undeniable proof that they're doing something right. Even if

it feels like those behaviors are sort of detestable, if you track back and you say, "But yeah, he was the one who said that he was great at this and now you're all just listening to him." Well, he nailed it. They're listening to him.

nailed it. They're listening to him.

He's succeeding. Maybe you have something to learn from that. Wow. You

know, I could see how this also plays out in personal situations. And I'm

going to just take a small tangent because I want to just put my arm around the person to make you understand that what we're actually talking about is influence. your ability to influence

influence. your ability to influence other people's behavior to your benefit.

And so, you know, an example that comes to mind immediately that I realize I completely screwed up is the negotiating with my husband for how we're going to

spend our holidays, his family, my family. And I think we all can think of

family. And I think we all can think of situations where we get highly charged and then we march in and demand what we want instead of stopping to think, okay

well, what does my partner care about?

What does this roommate care about? and

doing that homework, Professor Brooks to force yourself out of your point of view and go, "Well, what might that person care about and how can I start the

negotiation?" Really being interested in

negotiation?" Really being interested in what that person cares about instead of jamming my opinion like a poop sandwich down their throat for them to choke

down. No, that like I I I I can see the

down. No, that like I I I I can see the mistakes that I've made over and over and over again. And you know, from your point of view, Professor Brooks, what are the mistakes that people make? Yeah.

When they go in and they're asking for more money or a promotion. Yeah. They

they go in and do what you're saying which is they go in sort of righteous and resolute thinking this is what an influential person looks like. This is

what they sound like. They're decisive.

They're convincing. They're compelling

and strong, aren't they? But when you talk about dialogue, when you talk about, oh, this is there's a human being on the receiving end of this and you realize that every encounter, whether

it's a job, a salary negotiation or a first date or whatever, that's another human mind sitting on the other end and they need to receive what you're saying.

So going in with your hands on your hips and making your argument, this is not a public speech. This is a co-created

public speech. This is a co-created dialogue with another person who has needs and wants and desires and opinions and beliefs that differ from yours. And

you need to figure out what they are in order to be the best position to actually deliver what they need. How

does knowing what somebody else needs help me get what I want? Oh my goodness.

It's the it's the most direct pathway.

And the and the thing is, Mel, we're not good at guessing what other people need.

Even with people you know well, like your like your husband. Well, then how the hell am I going to know what my boss needs? You got to ask questions.

needs? You got to ask questions.

Endlessly ask questions. You can ask them, "What do you need? What are you excited about? What is this other

excited about? What is this other employee doing that's so great? How can

I do better? What are you What am I doing on my list of tasks that I'm totally nailing? What could I do

totally nailing? What could I do better?" Right? You need to be a sort of

better?" Right? You need to be a sort of glutton for learning, a glutton for feedback, and then it will actually make you invaluable to them and put you in that powerful position to say, "Look, I

know I'm invaluable to you. you've told

me and now I think I deserve more. Well

you've also just signaled that you're now wanting to succeed and that you're not going to waste time guessing. Yeah.

That you're willing to align and be flexible to cause more value for us. You

yourself want to succeed and at the same time you're signaling, I want us to succeed. I want this organization. I

succeed. I want this organization. I

want this restaurant. I want this investment bank. I want whatever this

investment bank. I want whatever this school. I want us as a group to succeed.

school. I want us as a group to succeed.

Let's figure out how I can help us do that. So, I think most of us probably

that. So, I think most of us probably wait until our annual or mid-year review to do this, but when is the best time? I

really love more casual feedback. Okay.

It's so stressful to go into like a 360 review or your annual feedback meeting and everybody's nervous and it feels very high stakes. You have the opportunity to ask questions anytime

anytime you see somebody. Hey, I tried this thing. Here's let me give you like

this thing. Here's let me give you like show you a video. Let me show you what what do you think about this? Was this a good idea that I did this? What could I have done better? You were in that presentation I gave the other day. What

did you think of my slides? Like what

could I have done better? Should I have not even use slides? Right there. The

opportunity to ask for lower stakes more casual feedback is always there.

But it requires that you ask those questions. Well, and the more you do

questions. Well, and the more you do that, the more you're in a dialogue where it's pretty clear you're a valuable contributor. Exactly. And

valuable contributor. Exactly. And

they're more invested. It's causing

people around you to actually think about you, right? It's saying like "Hey, I care about your opinion." And

now we have a meaningful enough relationship where I feel comfortable asking you. That's so valuable. Like

asking you. That's so valuable. Like

you're embedded. You're inshed in the sort of social net. Organizations are

just a group of people who care about what they're working on. So, let's say you're a shift worker, right? One of my uh daughters works at a restaurant, and

let's just say she wants better shifts.

How do you use this strategy to try to negotiate without being very direct around getting better shifts? And I'm

not saying for the record that my daughter wants better shifts. I'm just

using it as an example because somebody might listen to the restaurant. Yes

exactly. But as a former waitress and bartender, I know when the schedule comes out and you're like, "Another crappy shift. How do I get the good

crappy shift. How do I get the good shift?" Totally. I spent many years of

shift?" Totally. I spent many years of my life waitressing, too. I know this feeling. Um, so I think there's a couple

feeling. Um, so I think there's a couple answers. The the first question is, who

answers. The the first question is, who are you talking to? Who are you targeting? Oh, because you could talk to

targeting? Oh, because you could talk to your fellow servers first and say, are you also unhappy with your shifts? Do

are there any opportunities for us to trade? That would be win-win, right? So

trade? That would be win-win, right? So

that's we call that trading on differences. people have different

differences. people have different preferences. There might be win-wins in

preferences. There might be win-wins in there to trade with the fellow servers.

Y um you could then if if not if that's not an option, uh you can go and talk to your boss and say like when you when you're making the schedule, what are you thinking about? What is there something

thinking about? What is there something about this shift that you think I'm uniquely positioned to do? Am I doing a good job here? What value am I bringing?

Um or what this I would really love to be on this earlier shift, but I see that you know this other server is there. Do

you think they're uniquely positioned to be there? or what are they doing that's

be there? or what are they doing that's great or what could I do to put myself in a position to be considered what can I, do, to, earn, it, you, know what, I, love

about this is that often times and I'll speak as an employer and as a parent right cuz negotiating um often times it feels

a little bit like me against you yeah and what I love about this strategy professor, Brooks, is, that, all, of a, sudden you in a very sneaky Okay. You made me

with you. Yeah. And so there was nothing

with you. Yeah. And so there was nothing adversarial. There was nothing

adversarial. There was nothing confrontational. It's not like you're

confrontational. It's not like you're making me wrong cuz I didn't put you on the great Saturday night shift. You're

basically saying like, "What do I need to do to put myself in a position to be considered, which then allows me to be with you?" Yeah. Versus against you.

with you?" Yeah. Versus against you.

Their job is hard. The job that they're doing to decide who's doing what shift is a complicated puzzle to solve. And so

you're saying, "I see that this is a complicated puzzle. How can I help you

complicated puzzle. How can I help you solve this puzzle? And how can I become a more valued part of the of the of the puzzle?" Um, this is a really great

puzzle?" Um, this is a really great mindset shift whenever you're in a confront whenever you confront even a tiny disagreement, instead of thinking of it as confrontational. Instead

setting it aside and saying like, "I'm with you. I care about you. I see what

with you. I care about you. I see what you're doing is hard. Let's try and solve this together." That's a really important mindset shift. And it's almost always true, right? Whether it's with your spouse or your kid or your boss

these are people you really care about and admire. You don't need to be getting

and admire. You don't need to be getting in a fight with them about really anything. I feel like my husband has

anything. I feel like my husband has taken your negotiation and your science of communication course because he constantly when I start to get agitated about something, he'll be like, "Mel

I'm not against you." Yeah. Like we need to work on this thing together. Yeah.

which gets me out of that like adversarial thing. And I think we do

adversarial thing. And I think we do feel that way particularly at work because money livelihood, a sense of feeling good about yourself and that you're progressing that you start to get

really nervous about it. Humans need a lot of affirmation, Mel. And you can give it to them in these tiny little moments in your conversations with them.

Just reminding them relentlessly, hey I'm with you. I got your back. Like I

see you. It makes sense that you feel upset about where you are in the schedule. Let's talk about how it could

schedule. Let's talk about how it could get better in the future, right? Like

we're in this together. I'm affirming

you and also I can't move you in this right now. Right. Well, I think that's

right now. Right. Well, I think that's important because a lot of us have adversarial relationships with our boss.

Yeah. Or with our business partners.

Yeah. And we think they're against us.

And it's a huge shift. And again, I'm going to remind you as you're listening she's not making this up. I mean this is what they're teaching at Harvard Business School in the renowned course

on negotiation and this is what you are summarizing in your best-selling book talk which is based on you teaching one of the most popular classes at Harvard Business School. Learning how to

Business School. Learning how to communicate and negotiate effectively is a important skill that helps you have more influence, make more money, be more effective with your

family, with everybody. So, let's say that you take this important advice and you actually have been peppering with small conversations. Yeah. And you've

small conversations. Yeah. And you've

been putting yourself in the person's shoes that you're now trying to get something from. Is there a certain time

something from. Is there a certain time when to have the conversation? If you've

been having all the little conversations all along to try to understand their position. Yeah. If you've had these

position. Yeah. If you've had these conversations and you feel like you really understand how you're adding value, you've really put in the effort to become this sort of invaluable irreplaceable

um contributor, and you really have assessed and been honest with yourself do I deserve more? And you get to this place where you're like, yes, I think I do. After all of that, which is

do. After all of that, which is important, that's an important first step. Um then this then you get to this

step. Um then this then you get to this point where you need to work up the courage to say is there a world where you could even afford could you give me a raise? Can the organization afford it?

a raise? Can the organization afford it?

Can you afford it? Do you agree with me because I'm feeling like I really need it. It would really help me. Well, hold

it. It would really help me. Well, hold

on a second. That sounds weak. I'm just

going to come right out and be like it sounds weak to say could you afford it and I need it. You know what I'm saying?

Like that's actually the language you should use. Depends. It depends on where

should use. Depends. It depends on where you're going. I mean I mean if it's a

you're going. I mean I mean if it's a waitressing job that's one thing but like if you're working in a company and you got healthare and you got a 401k really I think so I think in our minds

we have this image of what strength looks and sounds like but in the experience of a of a conversation strength actually looks quite different.

It's people who go in open-minded with good data good reasons good reflection and you can say hey we've had a lot of conversations about this. I know you think I'm doing a really great job, that

I'm invaluable to you because of these things that we've talked about before.

We've gotten to a point now where I'm really hoping that you could reward me for it. Put your money where your mouth

for it. Put your money where your mouth is, [ __ ] No, that's not what you're saying.

Yeah. I think we have this idea of what strength looks like that in the practice of humanto human connection and conversation is not actually how it plays out. Well, what's also interesting

plays out. Well, what's also interesting is if you work for a larger company, the fact of the matter is a lot of this is tied to your title. Yeah. and to your tenure. And it's also going to require

tenure. And it's also going to require the person you report to to then have to go advocate on your behalf. And it's not always as personal as you'd like to think. But if you're in a smaller

think. But if you're in a smaller organization, the presumption that the company's doing well, therefore you deserve to do, you know, a lot better than you currently are is kind of an

arrogant presumption because you haven't seen the P&L. Yeah. So actually asking could you even be in a position to do this because you agree that I'm killing it here. What can we do? It's a very the

it here. What can we do? It's a very the questions of are you the right person kind of tricky actually. Are you the right person to do you have the power to even say yes to me. Figuring out who to

talk to is a really hard question. They

may not they may they would love to give you a raise but they don't have the power to do it. Or they would love to give you a raise but they can't afford to do it. These are all things you need to figure out. It's not weak to ask.

It's it's smart to really be thinking are they in a position where they can give me what I want? Are they are their hands tied? Well, and I suppose if

hands tied? Well, and I suppose if they're not in a position, you can also say, well, look, I'm looking to make 10 $20,000 more. What do I need to do here?

$20,000 more. What do I need to do here?

Yeah. To actually have that happen. And

they might say, you need to bring in more clients so that I can afford to give it to you. Right. And that that's good to learn. And then you can go out and do it. Yes. This is so helpful. Can

I tell you to say one more thing? Yes

much of our conversation has focused on asking for a rate, asking for more money. A very big takeaway from the

money. A very big takeaway from the negotiation course at at HBS and this talk book is yes, money matters tremendously. We all know that. But

tremendously. We all know that. But

also, your happiness at work and outside of work so heavily rests on so many other things about your work. The

meaning of your work, how connected you feel to your co-workers, to your boss your relationships. Do you have a work

your relationships. Do you have a work bestie? Do you have anybody there that

bestie? Do you have anybody there that you enjoy being around? Is there

convenient parking? Is there good coffee? These things are not

coffee? These things are not insignificant. So, when you find

insignificant. So, when you find yourself overfixating on getting that $10,000 raise, I would urge people to also really think about what are other

things. If my company can't afford to

things. If my company can't afford to give me 10,000 or $20,000 more a year are there other things that would make my life so much better, so much more pleasant that are not about money at

all? Like, could I do a 4 day work week?

all? Like, could I do a 4 day work week?

Could I do a 4 day work week? Can I get can we get an espresso machine in the office? Can I could I have a friend

office? Can I could I have a friend who's really wellqualified for this open role that we have? Could we think about hiring them? I would love they would

hiring them? I would love they would make me so happy to work with them. You

know, think creatively. Think outside of just one issue. That's so true because we do get fixated. Yeah. And not to say that the money isn't important and not

to say you don't deserve to be compensated for the contributions and the effort that you're making. And I do think the other thing too is is that a

lot of times at least speaking for myself is I would show up in a role and do the job that was asked of me, right?

And then I expect because I'm doing the job that's asked of me that by the way they could hire a hundred other people to do the job that is asked of me. Yeah.

But am I contributing more so that I am more valuable? And

these are not the conversations that I ever had with myself because I was so busy going well my friends in investment banking are making all this money and you know I want this and I want that and look at these influencers online and you

know my company looks like they're doing well and my boss drives a nice car so therefore I should you know and you get up in that mindset dangerous very yeah and there's a saying of like dress for

the job that you want but it's more than dress like the you need to behave like the job that you want. So if they hired you to do a very simple job, if you start doing things that are actually

above and beyond and more valuable truly valuable to the organization you're already doing the next level job.

And you can go in and point that out to them and they might say, "Yeah, you're right. Like we need to reward you for we

right. Like we need to reward you for we need to pay you like you're doing that job." So if the research is undisputed

job." So if the research is undisputed that making your contributions known is one of the most effective things that you can be doing because just assume your boss is so busy they don't even know all the things that you're doing

and if you're really good at your job you're taking care of so much that they're not aware of it because it's not on fire anymore. Yep. So, are there strategies

um that you recommend that somebody think about in terms of how you make sure that the value that you're providing is known at work? I think two

things. One, um keeping notes. If you

things. One, um keeping notes. If you

feel like you've done something valuable, make note of it. In academia

we have these very long uh CVS that where we track like everything, every little move we make, every conference we attend, every tiny poster that you present, every paper that you publish.

It seems a little bit ridiculous, but in retrospect, when you look back, you say "No, that was just keeping notes on all the little things that I did that felt like it added value to the field, added value to my organization, to my

co-authors, all of it." And so, you can see why that's valuable. It's sort of undisputable evidence of all of the value that you added. Yeah, it's sort of like if a year goes by and you look back at your camera roll and you're like, "Oh

my god, I forgot that I went on that trip in July." Everyone forgets. How can

you expect your boss to know and remember if you yourself don't even remember? So, keeping notes in some way

remember? So, keeping notes in some way some document where you're keeping track of what you've done is sort of part one.

And part two is talk to people about it.

Tell tell people when you've done something that you feel proud of or you feel like could be valuable, don't keep it a secret. like no one's going to know about it. And yes, maybe it brings you a

about it. And yes, maybe it brings you a sense of pride, but in terms of work it's really valuable to share it. I have

two other things that I would love to share as ideas because I remember when my daughter started at this massive cyber security firm and they didn't do

any like just 101 training on what makes for a good week, what do you do on a Monday, what do you do on a Friday? And

so the first piece of advice was exactly what you're saying. every single week on a Friday, take out your notes app or take out a running document and write down the things that you worked on.

Yeah. And the second thing, which I think is a great idea, is at the end of the week, send a short email to your boss and just say, "These are all the things that I got done this week. These

are the things that I'm still working on next week. Is there anything that's a

next week. Is there anything that's a higher strategic priority that you want me to focus on next week?" And what happens when you do that is now in one email, you've communicated everything

you've done. Yeah. And you've

you've done. Yeah. And you've

recalibrated to see if there's something strategic that is on your boss's mind that you now need to prioritize. Yeah.

And the third thing, and I heard this from somebody else. I can't remember who said this. It was at, you know, a big

said this. It was at, you know, a big kind of conference that I was speaking at, and I thought it was brilliant. If

you solve a problem, and it could be anything. You

could be working at a big box retailer and you had to mop up something and the mop didn't work and so you use something else. If you solve a problem, send an

else. If you solve a problem, send an email wide about what happened and how you solved it because then you become a

person that has wider visibility of being somebody that's very proactive and it matters. And even if they don't

it matters. And even if they don't promote you at your work, guess what?

You now have a record of all this stuff for when you're interviewing. Yeah.

Which brings me to my big pivot. Let's

talk about looking for a job, Professor Brooks, cuz right now you're at Harvard Business School. Yeah. And you got a lot

Business School. Yeah. And you got a lot of HBS students who are in the job market. Yeah. And this is a conversation

market. Yeah. And this is a conversation that's coming out where the news feels scary and AI is taking over jobs and people who are very qualified are having

a hard time finding a job and people that are just entering the job market or getting back into it are feeling very overwhelmed. Yeah. As a Harvard Business

overwhelmed. Yeah. As a Harvard Business School professor, what do you see as some of the big mistakes that people make when they either start looking for a job or interviewing for one? Yeah, if

you're having a hard time finding a job you are not alone. This is a big problem right now. It's a big challenge. Even

right now. It's a big challenge. Even

our students at HBS are struggling with this, too. Um, so you're not alone. Um

this, too. Um, so you're not alone. Um

some of the biggest mistakes that I see people make on on the job market is is very similar to what we were talking about with promotions is thinking is focusing on how can I be the most

interesting qualified exciting candidate rather than thinking what does this organization need? what do they need and how can I fill that need?

Right? So, it's much more um co-created than how can I be my best self? Because

just being your best self may not be at all what they're looking for. And almost

any job that you find yourself in is going to require some flexibility for you to adapt to what they need from you.

Um, and so trying to figure that out a priority or before you give uh before you do a job interview, before you interact with them is so very valuable.

Let me back up a minute because I remember reading somewhere that 80% of open jobs aren't even listed. Yeah. And

that most jobs are filled based on networking. Of Yeah, I would believe

networking. Of Yeah, I would believe that. So, Professor

that. So, Professor Brooks, how do you teach Harvard Business School students to be better networkers? Oh, it's it's such a key.

networkers? Oh, it's it's such a key.

The keys to networking are the same as keys to all being a valuable person in the world, right? It's all about um initiating and creating and

sustaining meaningful relationships with people. It's not like a trick that you

people. It's not like a trick that you walk into some networking event and you're like, "Let me dazzle everybody.

and let me be the coolest guy in the room. No, it's really figuring out what

room. No, it's really figuring out what are they interested in, what are they excited about, what do they need right now, and am I the right fit for that?

What could what value can I bring to them? I remember a lot of my colleagues

them? I remember a lot of my colleagues in grad school when you go on the academic job market, they would go to these networking events and they'd be like, "Oh, I'm so nervous to talk to this person. So nervous." And I remember

this person. So nervous." And I remember thinking, "That's so interesting." Like

all you really need to do is ask questions or think ahead. Oh, that

person's working on this really interesting topic. Let me do a little

interesting topic. Let me do a little bit of reading about that topic and brainstorm. What is that area missing

brainstorm. What is that area missing and what could I fill for them? Do I

know something about an interesting research methodology? Do I know someone

research methodology? Do I know someone else who's working on cool stuff that I could introduce them to? Really thinking

ahead about what value you could actually bring to that person. Then

interacting with them is not nerve-wracking because you're actually prepared and bringing value to them. So

if you were thinking about this from the standpoint of somebody who's just graduating from college and feels like they have nothing to offer or somebody getting back into the workforce after

taking time off having kids or caring for an aging parent or somebody that got laid off and now their confidence has taken a hit. So, you're kind of at ground, zero., Yeah., You, know what, I, mean?

ground, zero., Yeah., You, know what, I, mean?

You're like on LinkedIn, you're who can I network with? you're going and sending things to alumni from your high school and your college. Is there something

about networking that you want the person listening to really think about it differently? Because I do think when

differently? Because I do think when you're in that position where you don't have a job and you're like, where do I even begin? And my mom's telling me to

even begin? And my mom's telling me to reach out to this friend of hers that she knew five years ago and I don't even know what to say. And you don't know

you know, cuz I've been there and you're just like, what the hell do I even say?

Do you just come right out and say look like yes, Professor Brooks, help me out here., There, are a, lot, of, So, young, people

here., There, are a, lot, of, So, young, people feel unqualified. um you know, parents

feel unqualified. um you know, parents who have taken time off from the workforce and are going back feel unqualified, like they've they've like lost pace with technology or their skills are no longer relevant. There's

so many people out there that feel like they're not qualified or like what should I even say or am I even can I be helpful to them? Here's my advice and re I really mean this. Um, it is so much

more rewarding to connect with people in person or on the phone than it is through a networking website or through LinkedIn or through which is valuable very valuable. But a real human

very valuable. But a real human connection makes you so much more memorable to somebody. And when when you go and have a coffee chat with someone don't go trying to impress them. Go

because you're truly curious to find like learn from them. What do they work on? What are their pain points right

on? What are their pain points right now? What are they struggling with? What

now? What are they struggling with? What

do they love about the job? Start with

the informational like I'm looking for something. My mom, my dad, my neighbor

something. My mom, my dad, my neighbor my roommate said you'd be a great person to, talk, to., I, don't, even, know if, I, would start with that. M I would start with I I am so curious about what you're what you're doing is so amazing. I'm so

intrigued by it. Can I have a f five minutes of your time to just pick your brain? What are you struggling with?

brain? What are you struggling with?

What do you love about this? What do you hate? Um who do you love working with?

hate? Um who do you love working with?

What are you missing in your organization? asking these questions

organization? asking these questions with like true sincere curiosity, you're going to learn so much. You're going to be um you're going to feel very validated of like, oh, I am still

relevant. You know why? Cuz I'm good at

relevant. You know why? Cuz I'm good at asking these questions. I'm good at figuring out what people need. So if I can extrapolate that because again I know that this conversation I mean we've

got a free class from Professor Allison Wood Brooks from Harvard Business School teaching us how to land the job network

better. You're basically saying just ask

better. You're basically saying just ask questions and be interested and that's the opening for networking with somebody. Yeah. because eventually

somebody. Yeah. because eventually

hopefully the person's going to come back and be like, "So, what did you study in school?" or "What kind of thing are you looking for?" Yeah. They don't

even maybe they don't even need to know that you're looking for a job, right?

Just connect with people in an authentic way where you're inter you're curious and interested in what they're doing and figuring out what are they missing? What

do they need? Do I know someone that could do that? Am I the right person to do that? Could I learn how to do that?

do that? Could I learn how to do that?

Could I develop a new skill that makes me exactly what they're looking for?

Probably. What's a way to follow up with someone? Let's say you meet somebody at

someone? Let's say you meet somebody at a barbecue. You end up asking a ton of

a barbecue. You end up asking a ton of questions. They're in a field that

questions. They're in a field that you're interested in because networking opportunities are everywhere if you're willing to ask questions. But now it's time for the follow-up. How do I do that without feeling annoying or like I'm

stalking somebody or I'm being like pushy? Totally. I just now I just said

pushy? Totally. I just now I just said take five minutes of their time. I

really mean it. You don't need any more than five minutes to make a meaningful connection and to learn a lot about someone. But what's key about even very

someone. But what's key about even very short interactions to make them feel meaningful is the importance of follow-up. There have been amazing

follow-up. There have been amazing research on this where they actually there's a study of entrepreneurs in in Africa where they part of what they taught them to do is just be more thorough about follow-up. What does

thorough mean? Like anytime you have a meaningful conversation afterwards like shoot them a text, say that was really amazing. I feel really inspired. You're

amazing. I feel really inspired. You're

so incredible. Thank you and I'll be in touch later. Just a quick affirmation to

touch later. Just a quick affirmation to the other person of like, "That was valuable to me. Thank you so much. I'll

follow up." That's amazing, right? That

you're giving them the affirmation they need. They took time out of their life.

need. They took time out of their life.

You're showing them gratitude. You could

drop a little call back to something you talked about during the conversation.

Hey, you mentioned that your daughter uh is in the tech industry, right? I Let me call back to that. I hope your daughter's loving her tech job. Right? A

quick call back can be so it shows that you were listening to them, that you're interested, that you have interpersonal skills, that you might be valuable to have in their organization. How do you answer the question, Professor Brooks?

So, tell me about yourself in an interview. Seriously? Oh, because I'm

interview. Seriously? Oh, because I'm always like, what do I You mean like today?

Right now, I don't know. What do you want to know? My pants size, like what I had for breakfast. I feel the same way.

I feel the same way. What's a way to answer that that's memorable and just kind of influential if you Okay, so first to interviewers that's not a great question. Stop asking that question.

question. Stop asking that question.

More concrete questions are much more interesting. But if you are going to

interesting. But if you are going to stick with these sort of very abstract open-ended broad questions like tell me about yourself which we are all going to confront. Um, I like to make it more

confront. Um, I like to make it more concrete, in, ways, like,, for example,, if someone said, "Tell me about yourself."

I'll say, "I'm going to share two things with you about my professional experience and then two things about my personal life." Okay, stop. I freaking

personal life." Okay, stop. I freaking

love that. And we're all stealing that.

I'm going to share two things about my professional life and two things about my personal life. Yeah. And they're

going to get a much more uh thorough view of who you are. And they don't need to be it's you don't need to tell them you know, that you've had STDs or whatever, but it's like you can tell

them unless you're at an STD clinic which would make you very like effective counseling to people. I know. Exactly.

But if you again, this is also topic prep. When you you can anticipate that

prep. When you you can anticipate that when you go into a job interview they're going to ask you about yourself about your work experience, what about your life makes you a valuable person here? So topic prep that. What are

here? So topic prep that. What are

things that you've experienced professionally that will make you good in this role? What are things that are unique about you personally? When I

wrote this book about talk, something that I realized is I'm uniquely positioned to write this because I'm an identical twin. Of course, I'm like

identical twin. Of course, I'm like obsessed with humans. I I I'm obsessed with helping other people find this tight-knit shared reality that I have with my twin sister. So, I should say

that. I need to say that in an interview

that. I need to say that in an interview on a podcast so that people understand who I am and why that's why I'm a valuable person. Well, let me tell you

valuable person. Well, let me tell you why we're all going to steal that answer of I'm going to tell you two things about my professional life and two things that are personal. Number one

the framing immediately made you seem very smart and articulate and prepared.

Yeah. And the second thing that I loved about it is that if you're somebody who's nervous, it gives you a framework for you to prepare your answers. And when

you say, "I'm going to do two professional and two personal," you're queuing yourself. Yeah. That you have

queuing yourself. Yeah. That you have these things to share. Of course. And so

I think that's genius. We better all steal it. And it brings me to the next

steal it. And it brings me to the next thing I wanted to ask you about, which is one of the single biggest obstacles to networking, to doing well on

interviews, to negotiating what happens if they do offer you the job, which we'll get to in a minute, is nerves.

Like, you get so nervous about screwing it up that the nerves actually hijack your performance. and you have done

your performance. and you have done groundbreaking research, research that I've been citing for over seven years

about the physiology of nerves and a researchback hack or reframe or whatever you want to call it, a tool that you can use in these moments where it's appropriate to feel nervous cuz you

care. Yeah. But you can't allow it to

care. Yeah. But you can't allow it to hijack your performance. It saved my career. It's the thing that I use to

career. It's the thing that I use to overcome stage fright and become the most book female speaker on the planet.

And without this simple reframe, I never would have built the career that I have.

It means so much to me to hear that.

Really, I use it too, but to hear it from people, I mean, Mel, that's incredible. Thank you. No, thank you. So

incredible. Thank you. No, thank you. So

could you explain to the person listening what was the research that you did about the connection between nerves and excitement and how you can use the

findings from your research in moments where you're nervous. Yeah. The So first of all, if you're feeling anxious, it's

so good. It's so good. It is such a a

so good. It's so good. It is such a a clear signal that you care about something. What's better than that about

something. What's better than that about human human existence? you care about something and that's precious. So just

keep that in mind. Feeling anxious means you care. Um the recipe for anxiety is

you care. Um the recipe for anxiety is uncertainty. You don't know what's going

uncertainty. You don't know what's going to happen in the future. You don't know how this job interview is going to go.

You don't know how your work on the job is going to go. Even in any conversation, I don't know what my partner is going to say next. And they

could say something tough. They could

say something confusing. They could say something very unexpected. And I'm going to have to respond to that. Yep. So

uncertainty is the first part of the recipe. The second part is lack of

recipe. The second part is lack of control. Lack of control and uncertainty

control. Lack of control and uncertainty create these feelings of anxiety. And

that's what conversation is. You don't

know what's coming next. And you don't have perfect control over what the other person is going to say and do. So

whether it's a job interview or networking or salary negotiation whatever, of course you're going to feel anxious. It's hard and it's it's

anxious. It's hard and it's it's uncertain and you don't have perfect control. So, in my research, this was

control. So, in my research, this was from more than a decade ago, um it was my dissertation research, actually. When

you're feeling anxious, I really wanted to help people um figure out how to cope with it. It's not a problem. It's just a

with it. It's not a problem. It's just a sign that you care about something and that you don't know how it's going to go. And naturally, when people feel

go. And naturally, when people feel anxious, we focus on how we're focusing on all the ways that things could go badly. Yes. I start to stutter. I forget

badly. Yes. I start to stutter. I forget

to say things. I say something embarrassing. I seem incompetent. I

embarrassing. I seem incompetent. I

don't get the math problems right. I

don't I my voice cracks. Whatever you're

freaked out about, you're thinking about how things can go badly. Correct. The

threats. Mhm. So, in this research, what we found is a very simple reframe. When

people feel anxious, their instinct is to, try, to, calm, down., All right., So,, does that work? No, of course not. Anxiety is

that work? No, of course not. Anxiety is

a high arousal emotion, which means you have increased cortisol, your your palms are sweaty, your heart is racing. These

are all physiological signals of high arousal, right? Trying to make that go

arousal, right? Trying to make that go away and go down is so hard, impossible.

It's trying to control your body's natural reactions. Okay. So, I want to

natural reactions. Okay. So, I want to put the person listening at the scene.

So, if you're about to walk into the interview of your life, Yeah. or you're

about to walk into your annual review or you're about to walk in and give the biggest presentation of your school career or your whatever professional

career as you're pacing in the hallway and your armpits are like waterfalls and your heart is racing and your throat is dry and you feel the thump thump thump

thump thump of your heart because you're about to go do this thing that you care about and you want to do it well. You're

saying as you're pacing, don't go calm down,, calm, down., it's, going to, be, fine.

You're like, "No." And we do all these crazy things. We do all, you know, we do

crazy things. We do all, you know, we do rituals and we we, you know, take a shot or we drink the tea or whatever to try and calm down. It's like this desperate instinct of like, "This I know this isn't good. I need to calm down."

isn't good. I need to calm down."

Fruitless attempts to try and reduce those physiological symptoms. Instead let's try and take advantage of that energy. Right? This is this is and high

energy. Right? This is this is and high energy because you know this is important and you care about it. Okay?

So instead of trying to reduce your arousal and move to the positive zone let's just move to the positive zone.

Move from anxiety to excitement and say you know what, I'm aroused because I'm excited about this. And instead of thinking about the 100 ways that it could go wrong, I'm going to focus on

how it could go well. We could have such a rewarding conversation. They could

uncover the fact that I'm the perfect person for this job. We could have this conversation and they say, you know what, you do deserve a great raise. We

really value you here. I we love having you. Things could go great. And so

you. Things could go great. And so

thinking about those good scenarios makes them more likely to actually happen. So as you're pacing in the

happen. So as you're pacing in the hallway and your heart is racing and your armpits are sweating and your palms are super clammy, how exactly does saying, "I'm excited. I'm excited. I'm

excited to give this presentation. I'm

excited to ask for this raise. I'm

excited to have this interview." How

exactly does that work? Yeah. When you

say, "I'm excited," especially out loud to someone else. Imagine you said, "Hey Alison, how are you feeling about this interview?", If, I, say,, "You, know what?

interview?", If, I, say,, "You, know what?

I'm really excited about it." I think it's an amazing opportunity and I just can't wait to make them fall in love with me. Like, wow, that changes how you

with me. Like, wow, that changes how you will actually behave once, even though you feel like having stress diarrhea and you, want, to, run, away., You, know what's, so funny, Mel? When I teach, it's I've done

funny, Mel? When I teach, it's I've done this reframe for so many for almost 15 years in my mind. My body still has these physiological reactions. And a lot

of people who teach at Harvard have it too. You can't sleep the night before.

too. You can't sleep the night before.

You have the racing heart. You get the sweaty palms. You get the indigestion.

It's just that in your mind, you're flipping from negative to positive. I

know all those things are happening in my body because I care about this right? And it's an uncertain

right? And it's an uncertain environment. I don't know how my

environment. I don't know how my students are going to react. I don't

have perfect control over what they say and do. But what I do have control over

and do. But what I do have control over is how I think about it. That's amazing.

And didn't you also in the research find that when you tested the reframe of saying, "I'm excited. I'm excited." That

people performed better. Oh, yeah.

Because they didn't derail their preparation. Because if you get yourself

preparation. Because if you get yourself so worked up before a speech or an interview or a talk with your boss, all the preparation goes out the window. If

you stress yourself out too much by going, "I'm going to blow it. Oh my god.

Oh my god. I've got butterflies." You're

wasting that very valuable prep time on trying to calm down instead of using that prep time to think about the other person and say, "What is what does success look like here? What are we aiming for? What are my goals? What are

aiming for? What are my goals? What are

their goals? How can I make this go well?" That's how you should be using

well?" That's how you should be using that preparation time. Well, you know what's also cool is that typically in those situations when we're nervous and we get the butterflies and we start to feel anxious and then you start to think

about all the things that could go wrong, you think something's wrong.

You're actually saying, "No, no, no, no.

This is a mentally healthy response to being in a situation when you care about the outcome. It's mentally healthy and

the outcome. It's mentally healthy and it's so common." Like, we all feel that way. We're human beings. That's how

way. We're human beings. That's how

that's how our bodies were built to react to any situation where there's uncertainty and a lack of control.

Um, are there any rules of thumb Professor Brooks, where you've gone through the the process of networking and getting an interview and now you've

got the final interview. Is there

anything that you should say at the end of the final interview that actually helps you land the job? Like should you ask for it? Should you like what is the

re is there anything in the research around negotiation on this? There is

great power in expressing gratitude to people. So if you've gone through a

people. So if you've gone through a process where you'veworked and you've met lots of people and you've had all these conversational interviews and you've you've clearly taken a lot of people's time, right? Any conversation

is co-constructed. It's co-created. It

means that other people are devoting their time and attention to you including a job interview. These are

people that have jobs to do and they're spending some of their time getting to know you and evaluating you. And even

though that feels daunting from your perspective, it's also uh quite generous from them. And so saying, "Thank you so

from them. And so saying, "Thank you so much., No matter, what, happens,, I've

much., No matter, what, happens,, I've really loved getting to know you and learning from you." That's a very appropriate thing, very kind thing to say to them, that will land very well.

So, Professor Brooks, if you take into account like the decade of research that you've done on the science of conversation, teaching two of the most popular courses at Harvard Business

School, what do you think is the most important lesson or piece of research or behavior change

that the person listening should take away of everything that you shared today? that would have the biggest impact on their confidence and their ability to communicate and be

influential.

Don't aim for perfection. Don't aim to be trying to

perfection. Don't aim to be trying to prove how great you are to other people.

Aim for connection. Think about what other people need and then deliver it to them to the best of your ability. You

know, I've maybe it's all the training as a lawyer, but I've always thought about negotiation is making a case. I

know. and winning. Yeah. And not

winning. You just flipped it all in its head. Yeah. It's actually about

head. Yeah. It's actually about prioritizing the other person and figuring out what they want. Yeah. And

then refraraming what you need and want from their point of view. If the more people that you can give what they need the more people there are in the world who are poised and ready and excited to

give you what you need back. Wow. It's

so counterintuitive.

No wonder you have to go to Harvard to learn this. I guess not though because

learn this. I guess not though because you just shared it for free here on the Mel Robbins podcast. Professor Allison

Woodbrooks, the book is Talk: The Science of Conversation and the Art of Being Ourselves. Congratulations on it

Being Ourselves. Congratulations on it being a bestseller. What are your parting words? My parting words in the

parting words? My parting words in the course that I teach called Talk, we use a metaphor. If you think of every

a metaphor. If you think of every relationship in your life as a sort of string that starts at hello and goes all the way until the end of your relationship or even the end of your life, we like to think of every

conversation along that string as like a a light bulb, like a cafe light, those beautiful strings of lights. The goal is to make each one of those conversations

glow just a little bit brighter. And

imagine how much we could light up the world one conversation at a time. I love

that. And the reason why I love that is because I think particularly if you're taking this advice, and you're trying to

apply it to creating more meaningful career, feeling like you're more influential, feeling like your contributions get recognized, whether it's at home or at school or in the

workplace or in your business. You can

get very discouraged if you get to one light bulb that doesn't light up. Yeah.

And I love that image because if you're at a moment where you feel like you've gotten a lot of nos or closed doors those actually are light bulbs on the

string. Yeah. And your job is to just

string. Yeah. And your job is to just keep going to the next one and trust that eventually you're going to get to the one that shines super bright. And

some of them will brown out, some of them will explode, some of them will never light up at all. But just know that in the future there are more light bulbs to come. And just keep aiming.

Just keep trying, try try to get them to glow a little bit brighter.

Wow. I I mean, that's a big light bulb moment for me. Professor Allison

Woodbrooks, thank you. Thank you. Thank

you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you

Mel. And thank you for being here, for investing in yourself, for sharing this.

I know you're going to share this with a ton of people. And I also know that everything that you learn today from all this research at Harvard Business School is going to help you be more

influential. It's going to help you nail

influential. It's going to help you nail the interviews and do the networking because you do deserve to have a career that makes you proud of yourself. And

now you got some of the tools that are going to help you go create it. And in

case no one else tells you, I wanted to be sure to tell you that I love you and I believe in you and I believe in your ability to create a better life. Now

take everything that Allison Wood Brooks taught you today and go make it happen.

I'll be waiting for you in the very next episode as soon as you hit play. I'll

see you there. And for

you, thank you for being here with me on YouTube and thank you for watching all the way to the end. Wasn't it so cool to get all of these strategies and insight from a professor at Harvard Business

School? I love this kind of stuff and I

School? I love this kind of stuff and I know you love it, too. So, thank you for watching. Thank you for being here till

watching. Thank you for being here till the end. Thank you for sharing this with

the end. Thank you for sharing this with people in your life who you know deserve this information too. And one more thing, it is a goal of mine that 50% of the people that watch this channel are

subscribers. And it's free. So I know

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people that you care about. All righty.

I know what you're thinking. Mel, I love this. What's the next video I should

this. What's the next video I should watch? Great question. I think you

watch? Great question. I think you should check out this one. I think

you're going to love it. And I'm going to be waiting for you in it the second you hit play. I'll see you there.