The Most Powerful Way To Deal with Toxic People | Jefferson Fisher

Now, I'm not a therapist. I'm not a psychologist.

You know this. I'm a trial attorney.

That means I talk to a lot of people, usually in some of the most intense situations you can think of.

Crossexamination is one of those. I

can't think of anything that is more adversarial in a controlled way where people do not want to answer me. They

don't want to respond, but they're required to under oath because they've done something where somebody is now calling them to the mat. They are now being held they are now being held

accountable for whatever they've done or they've said. So they don't typically

they've said. So they don't typically want to talk to me. It's my job to ask questions in a way that is going to get facts, apply law to it, and advocate for

my client. One of those personalities

my client. One of those personalities that I see often are narcissists. And I

say that as a general term of people who exhibit a strong a pattern of narcissistic behavior. You know what I'm

narcissistic behavior. You know what I'm talking about. You know what I'm talking

talking about. You know what I'm talking about. These are people that if I were

about. These are people that if I were to say narcissist to you right now, you could close your eyes and think of one person you go. This is a narcissist.

Somebody who always puts it to make it about themselves. Always plays the

about themselves. Always plays the victim. Never takes accountability. Has

victim. Never takes accountability. Has

this inability to have empathy or sympathy or accountability for really anything.

We're going to talk about that right now. You ready? Number one, this is

now. You ready? Number one, this is there's a mindset that I want you to have when you're dealing with people who exhibit these narcissistic behaviors.

And it is a a game. That's the mindset that you are playing a game. And it's a game that I call praise or provoke.

Meaning, if I am not showering these people with praise, oh, how great they are, how wonderful they are, how credible they are. If I'm not reading everything else on their resume and just

blasting and gassing these people up, well, they will turn to provoke an argument with me to try and create conflict where there is none. Why? To

get that same level of satisfaction.

They want to create a problem. They want

to get me emotionally stimulated to where I am getting aggravated and upset.

You know this. You can relate to this.

If you're not showering that person you're thinking of with praise, they will turn to provoke and start a problem with you. Because they delight in your

with you. Because they delight in your frustration just as much as they delight in your praise. Because it's all about control. It's all about control. Let me

control. It's all about control. Let me

tell you about this game. This is a game you cannot win. It's not it's to be clear. It is not because of you. It's

clear. It is not because of you. It's

not that you're not a winner. You

haven't failed. You're not a loser. It

is a game that is set up to fail. Have

you ever played one of those carnival games? You gone to like a local

games? You gone to like a local carnival, a real bad one, like you know good and well, they don't take care of anything. They're just a few rusted

anything. They're just a few rusted bolts away from it all destroying itself.

You ever gone to one of those carnival games and you're like, I I can do this.

I can I can toss the ring on the bottle.

I can I can pop the balloon. I can shoot that basketball. not a problem. And you

that basketball. not a problem. And you

try it and it doesn't work and you're like, "Let me let me let me try again."

And before you know it, you're $20 in on a game and it's like, "This is not this is not beatable." Because it's not it's rigged. The game is rigged. It was never

rigged. The game is rigged. It was never fair. It will never be fair. That's

fair. It will never be fair. That's

exactly the situation you're in. It's

not fair. No, it's not. And guess what?

It will never be fair.

You can only choose not to play it.

You can only choose not to play it. So

number one is this mindset. When you are talking to these personalities that exhibit strong narcissistic behaviors or a pattern of it, understand you are

playing their game. And you can say, well, I'm just not going to play. That's

true. You cannot play.

And that would be my advice. Ideally,

it's yeah, you never deal with these people. Ideally, yeah, you don't talk to

people. Ideally, yeah, you don't talk to them. But that again, like I started at

them. But that again, like I started at the outset of this episode, it's not reality oftenimes. Now, you could say,

reality oftenimes. Now, you could say, "I'm out of here. I'm not talking to you." And you're gone. It's just not

you." And you're gone. It's just not practical. It sounds good when somebody

practical. It sounds good when somebody writes it in a comment. It's not

practical.

This is something where I want you to actually be equipped for real life. And

if that's if I'm not doing that, then I'm not doing my job. And that then I'm not even following my passion. And

what's the point of that? You're in a game called praise or provoke. Get that

in your mind when you talk to these people. Doesn't matter what you do. If

people. Doesn't matter what you do. If

you're not feeding them with control, you're if you're not feeding the monster with your emotions, whether it's happy emotions or sad emotions,

they will they will turn into the worst types of personalities you'll ever experience where you go, I I cannot do it. And I know you want to fix it.

it. And I know you want to fix it.

That's what you're good. I know if you're listening to this episode, you're a good person because you're trying to figure out h how do I do it? How do how

do I navigate these situations? You want

to fix it. That's the rigged game.

That's the rigged game, baby.

You It looks beatable. It looks

beatable. If you could just explain to them how what they said hurt you. if

they if you could just put it just the right way and all of a sudden the light bulb's going to click and they're gonna their eyes are going to open. They go,

"Oh my gosh, I've said so many things that are so hurtful and you're you're right. I should take accountability for

right. I should take accountability for this and I I should be bitter about this." That will never happen. Don't do

this." That will never happen. Don't do

it. Have the mindset of just one acknowledging you're in the game. Two,

what are practical ways, Jefferson, of how we're going to handle these kind of conversations? I'm going to tell you,

conversations? I'm going to tell you, you want to use very neutral, flat statements. Why? Because they can't do

statements. Why? Because they can't do anything with it. We're tempted in our default to say things that are going to incite things that are going to prove to them why they're wrong and why we're

right. That doesn't work with

right. That doesn't work with narcissists. They don't do empathy. They

narcissists. They don't do empathy. They

don't do acknowledgement. They don't do accountability. So instead, we're going

accountability. So instead, we're going to use flat neutral statements. These

are statements like noted. That's good

to know. Thank you. Oh, interesting. I

don't know. You hear I just flat as can be. You can't do anything with those.

be. You can't do anything with those.

You can't make something up in them. You

can't take it and run with it. You can't

twist them. Flat, neutral statements. I

love noted. It's one of my favorites.

I'm talking to a client, not client, excuse me, when I'm talking to somebody who's an adverse witness and they make some kind of snide comment and I know we're going to talk about the type of

personalities I cross-examine that I consider to be typically very narcissistic in their behavior. If I

just say noted, can't do anything with it. Can't do

anything with it. When you have flat neutral statements, you keep them very short. You hear how they're very short.

short. You hear how they're very short.

They're not long. If you can't keep it one word, find one word that you like that you can go to over and over and over and over. Even if it's okay, you

hear how I said that. Okay. It's not

like okay.

Okay. Or it's rude or try to have some kind of tone into it. Okay. Flat as can

be. So find a word very short, very flat

be. So find a word very short, very flat that you can't do anything with. Number

three, I want you to have this mindset of limited time, limited interaction.

This is not the time when you're talking with these kind of people to sit down with your with your hot tea and say, "Let's let's talk it out. Let me let me I need to express to you all the things

that have been boiling up inside me and I really just I need to empty out my bag with you and help talk about this kind of stuff. Nope. They're not going to do

of stuff. Nope. They're not going to do it. They can't. They can't understand.

it. They can't. They can't understand.

They cannot.

So when you get in those situations, keep it very limited. Even if it's a time frame, keep the conversations as short as can be. When they start to lash out in different ways, go to your

neutral statements. remember the game

neutral statements. remember the game and keep it very short. When you try to have a very quick clapback or a comeback, it's not going to work. It's

never going to have the effect that you want it want it to have. They they don't they don't do that kind of stuff. I'm

going to tell you right now a tip that I have used a lot with these type of behaviors and cross-examination.

Again, you take it however you want to take it. I can promise you it works.

take it. I can promise you it works.

See, people who exhibit narcissistic behaviors don't care about you.

They care about everybody else.

Everybody else who they believe is watching them don't care about you. They

care about the audience, the crowd. This

is their stage after all. Didn't you

know this is their platform? Everybody

loves them. Everybody watches them.

their audience, my people, that's what they see in their world. That's why they can't admit when they're wrong. It would

hurt the ratings. It would hurt the views. Right? So, how do you use that to

views. Right? So, how do you use that to your advantage?

Let me tell you a story. I was taking a deposition of an expert. That's the type of people I usually cross-examine. They

show narcissistic tendencies. Experts.

And it's not because they are an expert.

That does that's not the the bad pattern. Not at all. There's some

pattern. Not at all. There's some

wonderful people that are experts of their field. I'm talking the type that

their field. I'm talking the type that drink their own Kool-Aid so much that I mean they just they get drunk off of it. The people who just get

of it. The people who just get intoxicated by the the sound of their own voice. Now they will

own voice. Now they will it's often a very highly specialized topic. Maybe it's a biomechanical

topic. Maybe it's a biomechanical engineer. Maybe it's a very highly

engineer. Maybe it's a very highly qualified accident reconstructionist constructionist or um some specific niche down toxicologist. Something

that's very very very high-end. You we

need these type of opinions in in cases. Real quick in in certain well for sure in Texas and for sure in the US. You can't I can't just go on the

the US. You can't I can't just go on the stand or you can't just go on the stand and say, "Oh, yes. I'm going to give an opinion about a a toxicology report or

something of I just uh tasted this water and it has x amount of sodium in it."

You can't just say that if you don't have the credentials to back it up.

Anybody who's an attorney, you know, rule 702, you have to show that you have qualified knowledge, skills, training to be able to make these kind of opinions.

Well, these experts know that and typically if they've been in the field a very long time, they have a very high opinion of themselves.

And the good news is that's very good on paper to have a a qualified opinion, but it's very bad for a jury. The why?

because they come across as a jerk. They

can come across as very snoody, very uppidity, very full of themselves because a lot of times they are. The

real experts that are awesome and I mean a good expert can make your case. A bad

expert can totally break your case. the

ones that are extremely knowledgeable and are able to create the the the link between what's happening in the evidence and the law and and and show you why and

kind of teach you through it. And also

they're just a likable person. That's

the kind of expert you want. Well, I was deposing uh now this went into deposition was a a case a guy um and he

was extremely I mean I'd already known in the deposition he was very very full of himself. So, I was asking him

of himself. So, I was asking him questions about my client's injury, talking about the case, and he made this

opinion that was I couldn't even understand how he was making the opinion, but it was it was about my client's injury that saying that she couldn't have been injured in

the car, but yet somebody else who had been hit who hit them, they had been injured, and he was okay with that.

Anyway, we started talking and I asked him a question.

something pretty basic and he and he said something to the tune of well I mean I would explain it to you but you know I don't know if that would really do any good and the whole jury was like

several of them kind of like gasped they were like like their case was done after that he had he had hurt the opinion of

the other side pretty bad so so badly that the other attorney in closing argument had to kind of apologize for it and and say, "Well, you can't him as a whatever you think of him as a person.

You understand his opinion here today."

Anyway, you got to be careful of those kind of people. And the other attorney couldn't really do much about it, but it was just a it was a not nice guy who we all knew and the jury knew and the judge

knew, everybody in the courtroom knew he was a narcissistic type of behavior.

Now, what did I do in that case?

I referred to the jury. He made a an opinion and I said, "If you think and you think the juryy's going to like this

opinion is what I said."

I said, "You think the juryy's going to like this opinion?" and he almost instantly you could see he kind of just did the calculation in his head and all of a sudden pivoted to say well I mean

well it's not so much about like you know what I what I tried to do in my experience in my field and he went on to just talk about himself now see what I did was I talked about the jury how do

you apply this to your own life they don't care about you they care about the audience when you can say something to the tune of others and people I've used this tactic many times times. This is

what this is how you do it. So, let's

break it down. Somebody says something that's um narcissistic or a narcissist is talking to you and they say something, you respond like this. If you

think that's a good look or if you think others are going to like that or I wonder what other people would think about this, I wonder what your friend would think about this. You name that friend. Now, I'm not I'm not sure if

friend. Now, I'm not I'm not sure if others would agree. Anytime that you talk about others or people, I have seen

many, many times, they will change their behavior almost instantly because it reminds them they're not talking to you.

They're talking to the crowd, their people, and they will adjust their opinion, adjust their tone to fit the audience, even if it's invisible.

In fact, especially when it's invisible because you just think all eyes are on them. Anytime you can use the phrase,

them. Anytime you can use the phrase, well, if if you think others are going to agree with you, see, that's very simple to say. Hey, look, if you think others are going to agree with you, or

if you I wonder what other people would think about this, I wonder what other people would think about the way you just said that, they will turn they will turn it. They will make it better. They

turn it. They will make it better. They

will make it sound better. they will

make it sound more empathetic, make it sound more sensitive or sympathetic without actually exhibiting any of the real character traits. So when you talk

about others, the takeaway here is when you talk about others, they will pay more attention to what they are saying and give a more productive output than

when they think they are just talking to you. That's the takeaway.

you. That's the takeaway.

Narcissistic behaviors are not fun to deal with, but they're everywhere. And

sometimes, you know what? Every single

one of us can exhibit a behavior that some might call narcissistic. We can

make things about us. We can say things we don't mean. The difference the difference is the empathy. If I can take accountability for what I said, if I can

apologize, if I can apologize, genuinely mean it, change my character, if I can empathize with what I said and I understand, if I can just say, you know, I I can see how

that affected you. I I can see, use the phrase, I can see I can see how that would upset you and really mean it.

Narcissistic people can't can do that.

All right? So, if you're wondering, I'm saying that to tell you if you're sitting here thinking, "Am I the the narcissist?" If you are asking yourself

narcissist?" If you are asking yourself that question, you are not. If you're

asking yourself that question, you are not. All right, the takeaway here.

not. All right, the takeaway here.

Number one, understand when you're talking to a narcissist, you're playing a game. It's praise or provoke.

a game. It's praise or provoke.

Understand that you're in that game and it's rigged. You cannot beat it. Two,

it's rigged. You cannot beat it. Two,

when it comes to responding rather than engaging and inciting more of a conflict, which again feeds into the game, you're going to use short, controlled, flat statements. And three,

if you need to use phrases that are going to give attention or recall to the crowd, talk about others, talk about people, and they will adjust it rather than thinking they are just talking to

you. So, use what you know about

you. So, use what you know about narcissists and use that to your advantage in a way that is safe. All

right? Now, on the outside, they look totally normal. Maybe you're related to

totally normal. Maybe you're related to one. Maybe you work with one, but a

one. Maybe you work with one, but a narcissist reveals themselves as soon as they open their mouth. Now, if you don't

know exactly what a narcissist is, as if you've heard this term a lot, but you're not really sure how to define it. I'm

going to break it down very easy. And it

is simply somebody who cannot imagine thinking about someone else. They can't

put themselves in somebody else's shoes.

It's always about them, uh, how great they are, how wonderful they are. If

somebody else is having a good time, they need to be having a better time. If

they're frustrated, they need you more frustrated. They understand that it is

frustrated. They understand that it is not empathy that they do. It is all about the gratification of oneself and they just can't get there. It's always

has to be about them. They're always the victim and it will always be that way.

And the best thing about a narcissist typically is they have no problem telling you that they're a narcissist.

So, here's some tools that I'm going to give you the next time that you find yourself talking to a narcissist. Number

one, don't play the game. Anytime you're

talking to a narcissist, you are playing a game. It's a game I call praise or

a game. It's a game I call praise or provoke. But at the end, we're going to

provoke. But at the end, we're going to find it's a rigged carnival game. It's

not something that you can win. So,

we're not going to play it. Number two,

anytime that you feel like you don't know what to do, understand that the best move you can often make is no move at all. And we're going to talk about

at all. And we're going to talk about exactly how to do that. And number

three, rather than getting yourself worked up as if you need to prove to them that they need to see the wrong of their ways and they need to apologize, it's probably never going to happen, at

least to the extent that you want.

Instead, there are ways that you have to look within and understand that you don't need to an apology to to validate your own feelings. All right? How to

talk to a narcissist. Now, I want you to understand for a minute, I am no psychologist. I'm not a therapist. I'm

psychologist. I'm not a therapist. I'm

not somebody that has a a degree in this. So, I'm going to be very clear

this. So, I'm going to be very clear with you. I'm not in a place of diagnose

with you. I'm not in a place of diagnose somebody as a narcissist. And unless you really have a the ability to clinically diagnose somebody, you have to be very careful when you use that word. It's

often overused for anybody that's doing something negative that they don't like or maybe they're just not understanding you in a certain way and they're not being willing to understand you. It's

easy to just throw over a blanket and consider them a narcissist. I want you to be very careful about that. So, that

disclaimer out there. There are people that are diagnosed as narcissists and there are others that just have narcissistic tendencies or behaviors.

So, I want to make sure you understand that distinction. I typically see

that distinction. I typically see narcissistic behavior in my line of work. I see it among attorneys certainly

work. I see it among attorneys certainly when you have that kind of ego of who's right and who's wrong and h who has more cases, who's been more successful. I see

that a lot. Um but often it's in cross-examination.

I am cross-examining somebody. Let's say

they're an expert in something or it's a personality that's on the other side of u the fence as me in a case and I have to cross-examine them and they're just

never going to admit any kind of blame despite the evidence that that suggests otherwise. And so the tools that I'm

otherwise. And so the tools that I'm going to be discussing with you today, I want you to understand are about as practical as they can be because there is a place that you have to go in your

mind to be able to regulate yourself and go to when you know that you are talking to a behavior like this that you have to

separate that person from their behavior and understand that what they're doing is a game. Which is why rule number one is don't play the game. Anytime you're

talking to a narcissist, you are walking into their trap. That is a game that they like to play. I call it praise or provoke. In other words, if they don't

provoke. In other words, if they don't feel like you're praising them enough, if they're not getting enough accolades in the discussion, they will turn to

provoke. They will start an argument

provoke. They will start an argument with you because they delight in your frustration just as much as they delight in your praise. And you feel like it's

something you can win. You feel like when you get into that bad argument that you can show them the their ways and how they're not listening to you, how

they're not understanding you, but they will not do it. It is a rigged carnival game because it is that control that they like. They feed off of that control. Have you ever been in a

control. Have you ever been in a conversation with somebody and you talk well about a third person? Maybe it's a it's a mutual friend that you have and you're saying something nice about that person. The narcissist will typically

person. The narcissist will typically go, "Oh, well, yeah, well, I've heard about X, Y, and Z." And say something terrible about this person. Or they'll

say, "Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, I did this. How about me?" They'll try and

this. How about me?" They'll try and focus and put that spotlight on them.

Narcissists want that spotlight entirely on them. Unless they've done something

on them. Unless they've done something wrong, then they'll quickly try and put it on you. The key here is understand that this is a game. Often it is a game.

It is a um something that they enjoy in the back of their mind. And the best thing you can do is not play that game.

So key number one is recognition.

recognizing that you're in a game and you're going to choose to take your pieces off of the board. You don't have to play it. And that's why rule number

two is that the best move you can make is no move at all. Meaning, silence is your best friend. Often when you're in a conflict with a narcissist and they are

saying terrible things, you want to push back against it. You

want to think that you can beat it.

Instead, often the best move is to say nothing. Silence, the best thing about

nothing. Silence, the best thing about it is that it can never be misqued. It

can't be twisted in some sense and and repeated back to you over and over and manipulated and stretched into something. Often you have this urge to

something. Often you have this urge to say more and say longer things, throw in four sentences, six sentences of all this reasoning that's logical and

reasonable. But they don't do that. They

reasonable. But they don't do that. They

take those sentences and they string them apart and they'll pick out one word and flip it and all of a sudden they're the ones that look like the victim.

That's that's the play is they will flip that script to twist it and make it look like they're the victim. They're the

ones under attack when you know that's not the truth. Silence can never be misqued. And if you do anything at all,

misqued. And if you do anything at all, we're going to stay neutral in the conversation. And when I say neutral, I

conversation. And when I say neutral, I meaning you are refraining from saying things that are hurtful because they will lay this trap expecting you hoping

that you will say something ugly. You

will say something disrespectful uh rude in some sense to put them down because that's what they've been doing, right?

They've been throwing these uh arrows and no problem. But as soon as you do, oh, they act like uh woe is me and you're the worst person alive. And now

you're trying to play the comparison game. And it's you're going to be out of

game. And it's you're going to be out of depth very quickly when you go into that who's more wrong. So often when you want to stay neutral in the conversation,

that means you're going to be saying noted. That's good to know. Okay, I hear

noted. That's good to know. Okay, I hear you. You're going to be using these

you. You're going to be using these little bitty phrases, meaning you're not going to continue to give conversation.

You're not going to put back and put u a a defense back and say, "Well, yeah, what if but but what about that's going to just make it worse with a narcissist." Instead, you want to be

narcissist." Instead, you want to be neutral in that conversation. Go, okay,

noted. Thank you for saying that. I

understand. Anything that gives them no ability to grab on to, nothing for them to carry on to in the conversation. So

the more neutral you can be on a just a monotone, nothing that's engaging in any way, nothing that's pressing back on them, that's going to be a source of strength. And number three, I want you

strength. And number three, I want you to understand where you need to go in your mind when you're communicating with a narcissist.

There is this tendency that we have within us to make them want to understand our point of view. It's very

easy to get into this push and pull of, oh my gosh, they just they're not listening to me. They they only think about themselves. How can I get them?

about themselves. How can I get them?

What can I say to to click on the light bulb and make them think about what it's like on my side?

Not going to happen.

I hate to break it to you, but it's not going to happen. They can't. They can't

do that. All right? So, stop trying.

Stop digging that hole time and time again and and expecting them to fill it.

It's just going to be an empty hole.

Instead, I want you to get to a place in your mind where you think to yourself instead of man, they never they only

think about themselves.

Where you switch to say it is time that I think about myself and my peace of mind and my source of strength and where I go to the where I draw my strength

from, who I draw my strength from.

Because there are friends and people in your life that want to fill you, that want to give to you. They they want to

be part of filling your cup. Narcissists

will only take and they will continue to take and they'll continue to pour out.

So understand there are givers in relationships and takers in relationships. And it's the same way in

relationships. And it's the same way in a conversation.

So go into that mindset of you're not going to get that apology from them to say, "Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. You're

right. I was totally stubborn. I was

totally ignorant. I was so unreasonable in this. I was disrespectful."

in this. I was disrespectful."

Most likely never going to happen.

So instead, understand that you don't need an apology to validate feelings.

You don't need an apology to feel to feel like it's a bow has been tied on that conversation. You can finally

that conversation. You can finally finally lay it to rest. No, you just need to put down the shovel and keep on walking. All right.

walking. All right.

>> How do you deal with a narcissistic personality style?

>> Somebody that is always about them. I'm

thinking about a number of friends that are divorced and have a ex that they share kids with and you're getting the

long texts and a lot of make wrong and how do you deal with somebody that is first of all never going to change

>> and second you have to figure out how to navigate communication with them because of the kids or because you work for this

person, there's an initial mindset you need to have and that is know when you're in their game.

It's a game of either praise or provoke.

If you're not filling them with praise, then they will turn to provoke and start an argument because it gives them the same amount of satisfaction. They

delight in your anger as much as they delight in your praise. It is that sense of control that they have. So know first when you are on the board and you are playing their game.

>> Okay.

>> So number one is you don't have to play that game.

>> Okay.

>> You do that by two adding as much distance as you can. Don't feel like you need to have this rapid fire text exchange. They text respond the next

exchange. They text respond the next day. You need to wait. Most people maybe

day. You need to wait. Most people maybe they need to be reminded. There's not

some kind of stop clock on text exchanges of you required to respond. There's no

delay of game. You get to choose when you respond. And you're going to do it

you respond. And you're going to do it when when you're ready. I will respond to you when I've calmed down. I will

respond when I'm ready. You find ways to distance the emotional reaction that you could have. You also want to stay

could have. You also want to stay neutral, and that means you say very boring things like, "I understand,

noted. Good to know. Got it? These short

noted. Good to know. Got it? These short

little things that are going to give them nothing to feed on. Because if you think you're going to solve all your problems and giving them that paragraph

of a text and you think you really just gave them a hundred words of pure amazingness that's going to shut them down and change your life, you're kidding yourself. Because what they'll

kidding yourself. Because what they'll do is just pick out one word from that paragraph and twist it and not acknowledge anything that you said. So

less is always better when it comes to communicating with those type of behaviors and tendencies.

>> Wow. How do you brooach with somebody who you care about who's like in a bad mood or they're really intense and

they're that way a lot? Like cuz I've tried to and it feels like poking a grizzly like are you are you upset about something or you know like is there like why? like

why? like >> well I don't think there's a better way to approach the are you thinking about something it's this idea that whatever they say you need to be a safe space for

>> because I always want to be the person that my kids can come to with problems and if I teach them that when you come to me and you're hurting or you're in a bad mood or you're grumpy and I don't

like that and I don't accept that and I don't want that when you're in trouble don't come to me they're just you're not a safe space for

that they'll go be real somewhere else.

I can be grumpy. I mean, I can be in a bad mood. And so often, you have to

bad mood. And so often, you have to remember that when you're talking to somebody that's a spouse or a kid and they are grumpy and you poke that bear, they're should they should be in the

safest space of their life to be able to tell you, the person who loves them, how they're feeling genuinely, authentically. If it's somebody who you

authentically. If it's somebody who you don't know that well you probably don't want to ask that question but you might want to say how are you feeling

but I'd be judge I'd be careful on the assuming that they're feeling a certain way. Now

way. Now >> if we want to tweak this and say what if somebody sends you something that's rude like a rude comment that you read an email and it's rude that the kind of thing that you're like I can't believe

this. Can you believe that somebody

this. Can you believe that somebody would send this? Hey so and so come here. Look, look at this. You see what

here. Look, look at this. You see what they read? Can you believe that? Um,

they read? Can you believe that? Um,

it's the did you mean? Did you mean to sound rude? Did you mean u for that to

sound rude? Did you mean u for that to sound disrespectful? The did you mean is

sound disrespectful? The did you mean is always a great tweak? And you can use that as well.

>> Did you mean >> Did you mean Did you mean for that to sound so harsh?

>> Did you mean to teach us all how to be better communicators?

>> Yes, I did. Yeah, I did. But it really does help anytime you find something that uh we use this a lot is that did you mean for that to sound short? You

get that text, you know, I do that even with my dad. Uh cuz my dad's like the one word texter class. Yeah. So I have to say did you mean for that to sound short?

>> There's some people that you just shouldn't you shouldn't text with or email. Just pick them up and call them.

email. Just pick them up and call them.

There's people that you're like a they send the rudest email but when you talk on the phone they're so pleasant. They

just know that's not their best mode of communication.

>> How is it that you learned to assume good intent about people?

>> Yeah, I believe it. There's a a sense that goes to who you are and just your philosophy on life. And I believe that that most people are are good. They want

to do good. And there are people in this world that are are truly hurting.

and they came in hurting long before they met me. And so there are certain things that I know I could say that could be a trigger for somebody that I know nothing about and I don't know why

it's a trigger. I don't know their childhood. I don't know that one thing

childhood. I don't know that one thing that they're insecure about. You ever

said something and you said something about their job and all of a sudden it's like, "Oh, well, you think your job's better than mine?" What you're hearing is just insecurity. It's that's that's

what you're hearing. So you have to find the way. My dad would tell me the issue

the way. My dad would tell me the issue that they're giving you is not the real issue. Meaning there's always something

issue. Meaning there's always something that's layered underneath that and you just have to be curious enough and patient enough to find out.

>> What are your parting words?

>> I'm going to tell people that when you the next time you are in a difficult conversation with people, number one, I want you to say what you have to say with control. means you're going to

with control. means you're going to control your breath, control your volume, control your body, and understand you don't have to say anything that you don't want to say to

want them to say and speak with confidence. Means using an assertive

confidence. Means using an assertive voice that doesn't give over apologies that mean nothing or say I hate to bother you when it means nothing at all.

And three, I want them to say things to connect. In other words, say what you

connect. In other words, say what you mean and mean what you say. If you need to deliver bad news, deliver it. If you

need to give a compliment, give it. And

at the end of the day, they need to follow their heart and be true.

>> You're with a narcissist now. You're

with a full-blown narcissist. Now, these

are, in my opinion, the most difficult people in the world to communicate with that and someone who's just patently dishonest all the time in their communication with you. But you're

dealing with a narcissist. What do we need to know about narcissists in the first place structurally? Is there

anything that you know if this person is a narcissist? This is structurally who

a narcissist? This is structurally who they are, what they do, and then any tactics or techniques in order to navigate conversations with them.

>> Anytime you are having a conversation with a narcissist, you're playing a game. You You are on the board. And it's

game. You You are on the board. And it's

a game of either praise or provoke.

Meaning that if you are not showering them with praise, Ed, they will turn around and start an argument with you to get you upset because they delight in

your frustration just as much as they delight in your praise. They always want that from you. It's that sense of control. Whichever feeling that they can

control. Whichever feeling that they can grab from you and suck out of you, that's exactly what they're going to do.

It's a game and it's a it's a rigged game. And the reason why I say it's

game. And the reason why I say it's rigged because it looks beatable. Like

we've been in those conversations with narcissists and been on the other side of the table and you go, "If I can just only get them, if I can just say it this way, I'm going to get them to understand. I'm going to get them to

understand. I'm going to get them to apologize. I'm going to get them to see

apologize. I'm going to get them to see the light and go, "Oh my gosh, yeah, you're so right. I can see how uh you were upset by that." They're not going to do that. They don't. Narcissists just

they don't do empathy. They might know it hurts, they can't care about it. And

so the first idea and mindset you need to have is that you're just not going to play the game. You do that by one using phrases that are very short and to the

point that they can't do anything with.

So if you were just to say, "Got it.

Noted. I hear you." Like it's something as simple as that. It just kind of puts a wet blanket on the conversation. They

can't draw from it. the longer your answer. I I told this to all my clients.

answer. I I told this to all my clients.

So, it goes really for any communication, but the the longer your answer, the more questions you're going to get every time, the more that you're going to have to say. Like, you've sent that text message to somebody and it was

like a paragraph and you're like, "Oh, this is the best, most poetic, put together text I've ever sent." And as soon as you send it, all they do is just pick out like one half of a sentence right in the middle and you're like,

"They didn't even address anything that I said." Yeah, that was the point. So

I said." Yeah, that was the point. So

you you you you you said too many things. You need to give just a little

things. You need to give just a little bit. Two, you need to find ways just to

bit. Two, you need to find ways just to take yourself out of that conversation or what I also like to do and um this is

this is a go deep moment with me and you here is that when I am cross-examining a narcissist, typically some type of expert witness, somebody who feels like

they just have the ego of just out of control that they're the only person who could ever have an opinion is you use their

thoughts about their reputation. So, if

I'm questioning a witness and he and I know he's a narcissist, I I might say, "And you think the jury's going to like that?" And it might just be me and him

that?" And it might just be me and him in the room. I say, "And you think the juryy's going to like that?" Well, well, uh, because now he's thinking about the jury. Or if I were to say, "If if you

jury. Or if I were to say, "If if you think others are going to be okay with that, now they're thinking outside of it because they really don't care about you. They care about the others." And so

you. They care about the others." And so whenever you can get them to think about their reputation outside of the conversation, they change the dynamic so that they can make themselves feel good

about it in that moment. That's very

good.

>> So these are what I call dismissive comments and that they are dismissing your feelings, trying to dismiss any consequence of what they said. And in

many ways, I want you to see these comments as them trying to control the eventual outcome. Imagine somebody,

eventual outcome. Imagine somebody, imagine me just punching you in the arm and you go, "Ow." I go, "That didn't hurt." You ever had that happen maybe as

hurt." You ever had that happen maybe as a kid growing up or you have a a sibling? I know I'm I'm the oldest of

sibling? I know I'm I'm the oldest of four and that definitely happened. When

you're roughousing, you're wrestling, you do something, you go, "That didn't hurt." and they go that what do you what

hurt." and they go that what do you what do you mean that didn't hurt? So, I want you to imagine that in your mind that somebody's hit you in the arm and then they tell you that didn't hurt. As if

they get to decide that, yeah, I hit you in the arm, but it didn't hurt. So, no,

no harm, no foul. Right? You are the one that gets to decide that. And we're

going to talk about these techniques on each one of these. And I I want you to emphasize the idea that they don't get to say the outcome. They don't get to

say the consequence. You do. They don't

get to say what hurts. You do. Right.

You with me? All right, let's go. So,

first up is I was just joking. I was

just joking. It was just a joke. I hear

that all the time. I know that you do, too. When you get that dismissive

too. When you get that dismissive comment back to you on something, I was just joking. Here's what I want you to

just joking. Here's what I want you to do. Play off of this. If they want to

do. Play off of this. If they want to make it a joke, then it better be funny.

So, what I like to say is if somebody tells you, "I'm just joking." You

respond, "Then make it funnier. Then

make it funnier." Easy as that. That's

number one. Number two, you could easily say, "Then work on your material or find new material." How about that? Then find

new material." How about that? Then find

new material. In other words, don't be making a joke about me. Don't be joke making a joke about something else. If

they try to say uh something that is hurtful to you, let's say they made a comment about your looks or your weight or your age or whatever it is and then you kind of take offense to that and they go that it was just a joke. Okay?

As if all of a sudden they've taken away any stinger that they have. When they've

made that kind of stuff, you say, "Well, then find new material." Or was that supposed to be of the funny kind? Was

that supposed to be funny? It was just a joke. Then be funnier, then find new

joke. Then be funnier, then find new content. to find new material.

content. to find new material.

Any way that you can play off the word of a joke is going to to work to your advantage. My favorite is then be

advantage. My favorite is then be funnier because it is a reminder right there in that moment of if you wanted this to be a joke. That's not what it

is. This you can't just tailor a

is. This you can't just tailor a dismissive comment that's meant to be hurtful to me and just call it a joke and make sure everything is then we're all good. Then we're all good. No no no

all good. Then we're all good. No no no harm, no foul. Like I talked about, when that kind of stuff happens, easily twist it back on them as was that supposed to be funny or was that the funny kind of

joke? Whenever you can ask those those

joke? Whenever you can ask those those kind of things and put them on their heels to say that's that's not going to pass with me. Number two, one of my least favorite is don't take it

personally. Hey, don't take it

personally. Hey, don't take it personally. Like come on then. Then

personally. Like come on then. Then

don't say it personally. What do you What do you mean don't take it personally? You just said it to my face.

personally? You just said it to my face.

How how can it not be any more personal?

Um it is to me one of the just a total withdrawal of all accountability of any ability to say look that that was on me.

You know what I shouldn't have said that instead of this don't take it personally. I I can't stand that

personally. I I can't stand that comment. Here is some things that I like

comment. Here is some things that I like to use and I know you can use them too.

I get to decide that.

I love that one because it is very immediate and clear where the boundaries are. Somebody says something to you and

are. Somebody says something to you and then they go, "Don't don't take it personally. You respond. I get to decide

personally. You respond. I get to decide that." It's the whole thing of hitting

that." It's the whole thing of hitting you in the arm kind of concept of look, I I get to decide to take it personally or not. Don't don't tell me how to take

or not. Don't don't tell me how to take something. If you're gonna send the

something. If you're gonna send the paper airplane, I I have a choice of how I'm going to catch it or if I let it fall. If you're going to throw the the

fall. If you're going to throw the the ball at me, I I get to choose whether I want to catch it or I don't. It's it's

all within my choice. So, having that idea of I get to decide that. Puts you

in the control seat every single time.

Another that I like to use with don't take it personally is don't say it personally. Don't say it personally or

personally. Don't say it personally or then say it differently. That one is a comeback that you can use with all kinds of different dismissive comments. But I

like that specifically with don't take it personally because of it sounds like alliteration in a way. We say personally differently. They both have the the

differently. They both have the the adverb l y in them. And I feel that they um they're great at it's a great little comeback to say, "Look, if you don't

want me to take it personally, then say it differently. Say it again. and say it

it differently. Say it again. and say it a different way. It's a very strong straight up front to say look if you don't want me to take something

personally then try again. Take it say it differently. Okay. Number three is

it differently. Okay. Number three is don't be so sensitive.

You heard that one? I know I have. Don't

be so sensitive. And I to be honest, I've definitely been one that said that too and it wasn't fair. Say don't be so sensitive.

It is this idea that you go, look, don't can you just let things go for a bit? I

just said something. All right? Do you

have to turn everything into a fight? Do

you have to do this? There is a toxic element of that type of dialogue because yes, you want to control the reaction.

That's understandable. But that is just part of the battle. That means you're not doing the work up front to think about the consequence of what you're saying or to think about how your words sound. You just expect them to go how

sound. You just expect them to go how you want them to go. You want everybody to react how you expect them to react in your head. And that's not fair. So when

your head. And that's not fair. So when

you say the phrase, don't be so sensitive. Understand? Everybody is

sensitive. Understand? Everybody is

sensitive. Everybody is sensitive. It

just depends on the topic. It depends on the context. It depends on the

the context. It depends on the environment. So it's it's subjective to

environment. So it's it's subjective to everybody. So let that be what it's

everybody. So let that be what it's going to be. But when they say don't be so sensitive. One thing that you can do

so sensitive. One thing that you can do that I love to you to do is play off the word sense. S e n s e. Say sense. So

word sense. S e n s e. Say sense. So

they say don't be so sensitive. No, I'm

I'm sensing x, y, and z. So if somebody were to say, hey, look, it's just a joke. Don't don't be so sensitive. You

joke. Don't don't be so sensitive. You

can reply, no, I'm just sensing you're not that funny. You see what I mean? If

somebody were to to say an inappropriate comment and they go, "Don't don't like I just said it. Don't don't be so sensitive." You can reply, "No, I'm just

sensitive." You can reply, "No, I'm just sensing that you and I have a different idea of what's appropriate to say out loud." You feel the difference here.

loud." You feel the difference here.

You're not getting upset. You're not

getting defensive. You are playing off of their words. Oh, I'm Don't be sensitive. No, I'm I'm sensing I'm

sensitive. No, I'm I'm sensing I'm sensing X, Y, and Z. And that's going to put you in a much better position to stay steady rather than a weaker position. And the key to each one of

position. And the key to each one of these replies that I'm suggesting for you to try is that you cannot let

yourself become defensive. I know that's easier said than done, but I want you to play it out. If you were to automatically, somebody says, "Don't be so sensitive." And you're like, "I'm

so sensitive." And you're like, "I'm sensitive. I'm not sensitive. What are

sensitive. I'm not sensitive. What are

you talking about?" That's getting defensive and all of a sudden you sound weaker and they sound stronger. Let me

put it differently. They sound right and you sound wrong. You hear it? If you

were to say, "I'm not sensitive. What

are you talking about? Me? I'm not

sensitive. You sound stronger. You sound

weaker." Instead, when you can stay exactly where you are and say, "No, I'm I'm just sensing that you and I have a different idea of of what's okay to say

to each other." O I mean that is that is a verbal punch. I mean that that is a such a stronger position to keep in that

instance. So anytime that somebody says

instance. So anytime that somebody says don't take it personally and you you scoff at that, you get upset at that, you look weaker. If they were to say,

"Don't be so sensitive." If if they were to say anything else that is a dismissive comment, like it was just a joke and you a joke that that and you

start to get sw you swell up about it and get defensive and start putting up your walls, the more it looks like you are exactly what they say you are. The

more it looks like you're more sensitive, the more it looks like you're taking it uh literally, that you are everything that they say. So, you have to make sure that you keep your breath

calm, right? And I want you to stay

calm, right? And I want you to stay exactly where you are. Try your best to not get defensive. It will really, really make a difference.

>> What if you're with someone who does try to do that? So, let's start out. His

content, you guys, is so specific is what I like about it. It's not just general principles. There's actually

general principles. There's actually real phrasiology, real words where perhaps you are the secondary person is what I would call it. So you could be husband and wife, boyfriend, girlfriend,

friend, boss, and person they supervise, but one has sort of asserted the superior position in a conversation, if that makes sense. Almost like they're

always teaching you a lesson or they're in the control position. Is there a way to sort of wrestle's the wrong word, but reestablish pecking order or at least equality in a convers? You know what I

mean when I say that that you have the people that in your life that talk to you as if they're the expert on everything, you're not. They're in

charge, you're not. They're picking the restaurant, you're not.

>> Is there a way when someone has that dynamic with you to change that dynamic?

I started with one of the hard questions first because I think more people find themselves invisible pecking order conversations almost than maybe they realize.

>> Let's split the dynamic too. Let's say

it's if it's one-on-one much harder because this person has constructed their whole identity most likely to this facade. If

it is, let's say you're in a meeting and that person is trying to establish the pecking order, the other people will change the dynamic for you. You don't

have to push back. You just can't be pushed over. let's say one-on-one with

pushed over. let's say one-on-one with this conversation with somebody who feels like they're more dominant.

Biggest thing you're going to do is just not be pushed over. Meaning, you're not going to continue to chase everything that they say. You're not going to push back because they're looking for that threat. We call it water off a duck's

threat. We call it water off a duck's back where anything that somebody says, you can just say, "Okay, noted. I got

it. No, if I have any questions, I'll ask." This ability to kind of be in the

ask." This ability to kind of be in the in the pocket in your communication. The

temptation is we want to compete with them. Oh, you just went skydiving. Oh,

them. Oh, you just went skydiving. Oh,

that's great. I just went twice. Oh, you

know, uh, Ed, Ed's great. Yeah, you need to. And they start to compete with one

to. And they start to compete with one another of how many names they can drop.

Uh, how many experiences they can share.

But all that does is show more and tells more about their insecurity than it does really about any kind of true substance.

Let's say, let's just use the word alphas or the people that are very confident in the communication, the conversation typically say much less.

You've been in those meetings where the person who always has their two cents, the person who always has something to say is the person most likely the least removed from the actual true

conversation of what's happening. They

have to tell you so much so that you can know how smart they are. The real top dog is the person that's the most quiet.

And when that person speaks, everybody's quiet and everybody listens. So

insecurities are very loud. Confidence

is very quiet. You say that about leaders too. It struck me where you said

leaders too. It struck me where you said actually great leaders learn to say more with literally fewer words than the non-leer. You believe that's one of the

non-leer. You believe that's one of the traits of a great communicator of a leader. Correct.

leader. Correct.

>> Correct. Good leaders respond in conversation. Great leaders leave room

conversation. Great leaders leave room for conversation. So when there is this

for conversation. So when there is this mentality that the leader has to say, I'm captain of this ship and everybody should know it. Oh, who do you think you're talking to? And they need to

correct and and drive traffic and go go.

The best leaders are ones that they don't have to prove everything. Insecure

people feel like they have to prove.

They have to say a whole lot just so you believe that they're smart. Confident

people know that. Great leaders already know that. They're the ones that have

know that. They're the ones that have this calm energy. In my view, the the best leaders have a calm energy about them when they're on the floor of whatever is happening instead of this

erratic, you know, what's going on?

Okay, we need to do this and and they're start shouting and getting mad and yelling at people versus the person who comes on the floor and goes, okay, what do we need to do next? What's happening

next? Instead of blame, it's where are we moving forward? So, driving the conversation in a way that sets authority. People are looking for

authority. People are looking for anchors in conversation. Same thing in their everyday business. Employees,

supervisors, whoever it is, they're looking for the anchors in their organization and same in everyday conversation. So, you have to find the

conversation. So, you have to find the way to be confident enough to be the anchor. Bro, they're so good. You buy

anchor. Bro, they're so good. You buy

the way you exhibit that. By the way, from the minute we flipped the camera on, even before we went live, there's a deliberate calmness to the way in which you listen. You actually listen calmly.

you listen. You actually listen calmly.

It's one of the things I noticed about you instantaneously when the camera went on. Most of you don't know this because

on. Most of you don't know this because I'm an entrepreneur, but my major in college was actually broadcasting. And

so, it's amazing that God had this way 30 years later to create podcasts and then I was able to take advantage of that background. But one of the things

that background. But one of the things you have to learn in broadcasting when you write your copy is to write things with fewer words because you have to deliver segments in these little bites

of time. And that taught me to

of time. And that taught me to communicate with fewer words, saying the same thing other people take more words to do. And I do believe that that's an

to do. And I do believe that that's an effective use. If you watch

effective use. If you watch communicators, they're fewer words they use. It's almost like someone watching

use. It's almost like someone watching on broadcasting.

>> Do you have strategies, Jefferson, for dealing with your own emotions when you're dealing with somebody who's got a very difficult personality?

>> My breath. It is crazy to me how your body controls what you say. Like when

you are feeling threatened, it's maybe maybe you say something that challenges my credibility or I feel undermined. My

body says I feel threatened about this.

There is a threat. I need to do something. Either defend myself or get

something. Either defend myself or get out of that situation. And when it turns to the fight, I will hold my breath.

Why? Because your muscles are getting tight. They're ready to react. Your

tight. They're ready to react. Your

shoulders go tense. You feel it in your ears. So that's why if you're not

ears. So that's why if you're not breathing, you will say things that are louder.

You will yell because you're trying to make the threat go away.

But if you breathe well or I say a conversational breath, you take that let your breath be the first word that you say, then you're going to have a lot more control over what you're going to say next. So in

terms of regulating my emotions, it is simply knowing that I can't control anything that they do or say, >> but I'm the one that can control everything. Silence can never be

everything. Silence can never be misqued. So it is often a lot stronger

misqued. So it is often a lot stronger to say nothing at all than to send that one little thing that you think is going to win it. Because if you think you can

win an argument, you don't win anything, Mel. You just you lose your credibility.

Mel. You just you lose your credibility.

You've you've lost that connection. I

mean, what have you got now? Now it's

just awk You want awkward silence between the two of you. You still have to possibly work with this person, live with this person. You've now just made it really awkward for the next a few

days before you make up. So, you find ways to always just kind of control your your breath and your shoulders >> and shoulders like pull them back.

>> Uh, no, you're putting them down. Often

when you have your shoulders next to your ears, it's it's tension makes you cranky. Well, what's interesting about

cranky. Well, what's interesting about all your techniques is it's literally about saying less and understanding that

you can't ever control what somebody else says, thinks, or does, or what their emotional reaction is going to be.

All of the power is on your side of the table. and using your breath, using

table. and using your breath, using distance, using a technique of saying less so they have less to work with.

>> Yeah.

>> Lowering your voice, deciding what you're going to respond to and what deserves a response and what doesn't and who's worth the time and who isn't, what is worth pouring your energy into. And

it when you start to own that side of the power, you realize you're actually always in control.

Yes, absolutely. The first thing about standing up for yourself is knowing when to do it because not everybody's worth getting out of your chair for. It's that

understanding of I will engage this in conversation when I believe it is worth my time and effort into this conversation. You don't have to attend

conversation. You don't have to attend every argument that you're invited to.

And so it is this knowing of I can RSVP no I can politely decline. I don't have to attend if I don't want to. It's um

you've all been we've all been in those meetings where the person who says everything in the meeting is often the person who knows the least.

>> Me >> is what I'm realizing.

>> It's the person who's who's least like in the know of what's happening in the heart of that that company versus the person who says less. is often the

person who's the most confident because uh confidence is very quiet.

Insecurities are very loud. There is one simple phrase that I use that whoever's listening can use over and over.

I see things differently or I remember things differently. Period. And you can

things differently. Period. And you can say that phrase as often as you need it.

Somebody wants to come at you and they're gaslighting and make trying to challenge uh your truth. I remember

things differently. Period. They want to do it again because you're not going with them. I remember things

with them. I remember things differently. And in my world, people who

differently. And in my world, people who are trying to gaslight are trying to be the laser and you the cat. They're just

trying to make you go certain directions everywhere but the truth.

>> To avoid gaslighting, you just need to stand still and stand firm. I remember

things differently.

Period. that often will do everything that they don't want you to do because it's just not giving them the power. You

feel like just because they dug a hole, you have to fill it. It's just just let them dig their own hole. Let it let them fall in it. Let them step into it. Too

often you have this uh you ever been in those arguments where the person goes, "Wait, wait, wait, wait." And they have to go the whole timeline of everything.

No, no, you said this and then I said this and then so and so came and and remember the water that came and they spilled that and they want to go through this entire timeline. When they do that, often they will tweak that timeline to

present the facts most favorable to them, >> expecting you to to say, "Yes, that's exactly what happened. I remember things differently." That you don't have to

differently." That you don't have to explain that. You don't need to justify

explain that. You don't need to justify that because they're not going to ask you for it because you're just not going with them.

When somebody says, "Well, I guess we just have to agree to disagree."

>> Yeah.

>> Which always sounds a little passive.

Is there a response to that or is that just one of those things that you let hang in the air?

>> I don't like it. Uh when somebody says, "Well, we can agree to disagree." I open it up. Say, "It's okay to disagree with

it up. Say, "It's okay to disagree with me. You can disagree." It's like you

me. You can disagree." It's like you have to give permission. Sometimes

people feel like they don't they can't disagree with you. So, open it up to give that permission. If you if you disagree with me, I want to know. I want

to know. Now, that doesn't mean you have to come to the same conclusion.

Often, you can talk at different ways of how you're going to disagree with somebody of I have a different perspective. I tend to lean differently.

perspective. I tend to lean differently.

Something that just says, "Yeah, I hear what you're saying. I have a different approach.

>> I tend to have another approach." And

so, it's a matter of I see your path of getting there. I see my path of getting

getting there. I see my path of getting there. As long as you're not talking

there. As long as you're not talking about the other person of you are ex, you're so ex.

It's that whole separating the person from the problem.

>> I love this because there there's somebody in my family who >> just loves like, you know, the kind of person that just loves to poke.

>> Yeah.

>> They love to just say something controversial. They love to just kind of

controversial. They love to just kind of throw a zinger of a opinion out there and it's so offensive or like that you kind of stop and think you don't even

believe that, >> right?

>> Like you're just looking to get a rise out of somebody.

>> Mhm.

>> Is that the situation where you would go, I just think about things differently?

>> That's certainly one you could easily say, I tend to have another approach. I

think differently about that. It's okay

to say, "I don't have an opinion." Or,

"If I had an opinion, I give it."

That's pretty easy of, "I don't know enough about that. I'm not really sure."

Finding ways of just being uh what I like to call the wet blanket.

>> The wet blanket. Just like on a fire.

Exactly. Throw a wet blanket on the fire cuz cuz I >> there are times where I literally just want to >> be like, "You're a complete idiot." And

just And then I think, "Why? Why are you taking the bait? This is literally like somebody fishing. They're throwing

somebody fishing. They're throwing something out to see if you snatch onto it, then you grab it and Exactly. And

next thing you know, you're in the middle of this thing and you're not even sure why you're even debating this topic >> and I have a hard time, I think, being the wet blanket, especially when I think somebody's an idiot.

>> Well, that's that goes to your personality. There's nothing wrong with

personality. There's nothing wrong with that. I mean,

that. I mean, >> I don't know. Like, I feel like we need more powerful and calm. Like, you were such a nice, kind person. Like I can't even imagine going up against you in

trial because it would burn me up about how kind you are and how nice you are in the courtroom and you know and most lawyers are very just >> I've had that comment.

>> You have?

>> Yeah. That they didn't they I made it difficult because I never gave them an enemy.

So I never gave them somebody to not like. Same way for a jury. If as long as

like. Same way for a jury. If as long as the jury likes you, they Yeah. You you

you're 90% there.

>> Jefferson, I think you actually just shared the secret of life.

>> Yeah.

>> No, seriously.

>> Don't give someone else an enemy.

>> Yeah.

>> Like if you go and this isn't about like being somebody >> who is soft.

>> Yeah.

>> And it's not about letting people trample all over you. It's actually an incredibly powerful position to be mindful and protective of your time and

your energy and who is worth your time and what is worth your energy and what conversations deserve a response and which ones deserve silence.

>> I like to call it being in the pocket.

>> In other words, >> well, in um I'm a musician and >> Oh, really?

>> Yeah. I I play drums and for real I play several instruments but yeah >> I can't imagine you behind a drum set going absolutely in Did you ever have long hair?

>> I did. Yeah. I had the whole like Yeah.

I've been in multiple bands. There was a whole thing. Um and

whole thing. Um and >> Oh wow. Okay. Now

>> the part you This is your point. The

person you're talking to is not the person that they are. Okay.

>> Exactly. Yeah. Um, and

it's this idea of when you're in the groove and everybody's bouncing their head, it sounds great. You're not

lagging. You're not loud and forceful.

You're not calling attention to yourself. You're just in the pocket. I

yourself. You're just in the pocket. I

know I don't have to do anything crazy.

I just stay right in rhythm with the conversation. There is a strength to

conversation. There is a strength to being the the peacekeeper. There is a strength to

the peacekeeper. There is a strength to being the calm mind. That does not mean you can't kick back and have fun. It

doesn't mean that you're just the wet blanket on every social situation, >> right?

>> But when it comes to difficult people, when it comes to real conflict in your life, instead of choosing to say, "This is a difficult person, it's just a a difficult problem for the

two of you to discuss. And if you can get their help with it, if you can understand that >> they're grumpy because of something that somebody texted them this morning and they were feeling it before they even

entered the room, that the problem is not you instead of taking it so personally and just seeing the problem for what it is, you're going to come away knowing that you have all the

control in that situation. And and

that's a really empowering thought.

Well, what I love about what you're saying, and this is true, >> how do we broach um, you know, hot button issues with, you know, with others and do it in a way that doesn't

elicit defensiveness like and and to actually, you know, you've already kind of given us some some really, I think, wonderful suggestions like not, >> you know, not initiating

>> uh an interaction with the intent of of of winning it, you know. Yeah. But um

but yeah, how do we cuz defensiveness kind of kills all deals I think.

>> Oh yeah. The uh funny thing about defensiveness is it's like locking yourself in your room from your own side of the door and then being mad

that they won't get in.

>> Like you uh you still expect the other person to understand you and your emotions, but you've dropped all need to ever want to understand them. So it's

you're protecting your own in that moment. You you you got your own box and

moment. You you you got your own box and you're saying this is mine and you're not touching it when you have to have that difficult conversation with

anybody. What I outline and this is part

anybody. What I outline and this is part of saying it with connect is a frame.

And Max a frame is probably one of the most powerful tools that I teach for difficult conversations. What it does is

difficult conversations. What it does is give you a path to connect to the other person before the conversation even starts. So, let's say you and I have to

starts. So, let's say you and I have to have a a tough heart-to-he heart. I come

in the room and I say, "Hey, you got a moment? Uh, hey, Max. Uh, listen." So,

moment? Uh, hey, Max. Uh, listen." So,

you remember um back like two weeks ago, you said that thing in front of our friends. Uh, look, man, I got to I got

friends. Uh, look, man, I got to I got to say, and look, we're still, you know, buddies. At the same time, you're going,

buddies. At the same time, you're going, "What are we talking about? Where's this

going? What do you mean? And you're

getting worked up. You're going to get defensive. Your fight or flight's

defensive. Your fight or flight's kicking in because you're going what?

Fear of the unknown here. It's like that text we need to talk. Like nobody nobody li nobody likes that text. You don't

know what you're wanting to talk about.

A frame. Rid yourself of all that. And

here's how to do it. One is you tell the person what you want to talk about. Hey

Max, I'd like to talk about your comments at the meeting last Thursday.

Two, you tell them how you want to feel at the end of the conversation. That's

the key. You have to tell them how you want to feel to enter the conversation.

That's I want to walk away from this conversation with X or at the end of the conversation I'm wanting to feel why. So

for example, one is, hey Max, I want to talk with you about your comments of last Thursday's meeting. And at the end of the conversation, I'm not asking to solve anything. I'm not asking you to do

solve anything. I'm not asking you to do anything. I just want to feel better

anything. I just want to feel better about our priorities and that we're the same aligned. Or maybe it's even harder

same aligned. Or maybe it's even harder of, "Hey, I I want to walk away understanding that you're not going to do that again." Or maybe it's, "Hey, I'm not saying this for you to fix it. I

just need to say it out loud." Does that sound good? Part three is getting their

sound good? Part three is getting their confirmation, saying that, "Will that work? Can we do that?" And it's like a

work? Can we do that?" And it's like a hidden contract. It's like an implied

hidden contract. It's like an implied contract where they go, "Okay, yeah, I can do that. Perfect. Now you know exactly what you're talking about. You

know how you want the feel at the end of it. You're not asking to fix. you're

it. You're not asking to fix. you're

just wanting to be heard on this and now you've said, "Yeah, I can do that." So,

it's kind of like signing your name to it. And people don't like to break their

it. And people don't like to break their word when they've given it. So, it it aligns it. When you have too many issues

aligns it. When you have too many issues in a conversation and you want to talk about everything all at once, you're talking about nothing. Instead, you just need to focus on one issue one at a time. That's going to allow you to have

time. That's going to allow you to have much deeper conversation and feel more productive afterwards. Same for in the

productive afterwards. Same for in the business context.

>> So, you call that framing the conversation.

>> Yeah. just a conversational frame that allows you to zero in on exactly what you're talking about and exactly what to do with it. Uh what happens uh most often is we start talking

>> but you you don't know how I want to end the conversation and you don't know when the conversation's done.

>> So it's what are you looking for? Are

you looking for an apology? Are you

looking to solve it? Are you looking to fix it? I feel like there are times when

fix it? I feel like there are times when somebody the default is somebody's complaining to me. I'm looking to fix it. So, I'm looking all around for,

it. So, I'm looking all around for, "Okay, you me say this." And they go, "No, no, no, not that." And they keep talking. You go, "Oh, okay. So, you want

talking. You go, "Oh, okay. So, you want me to Oh, you should do this." I go, "No, no, no, no. Just listen to me." I I am listening to you. I just don't know where where what's the point. Where are

you wanting to go? That's that's where it gets to frustration um in and out of it because the anxiety that I might be feeling of I don't know where you're going with this. I feel like I'm in

trouble. Have I done something wrong? If

trouble. Have I done something wrong? If

I were to send you randomly, we need to talk. Period.

talk. Period.

your your mind goes to the worst case scenario. Oh my gosh, they're breaking

scenario. Oh my gosh, they're breaking up with me. Oh my gosh, I I've I've done something wrong. What what have I done?

something wrong. What what have I done?

I mean, it's just that pit in your stomach of something is wrong. That is

all your fight or flight saying something is threatening me, the fear of the unknown. And we are having to

the unknown. And we are having to prepare our bodies for it. And so it's it's um that's what makes it your your voice gets shaky or you're you get all

tearyeyed and you get worked up because you don't know where it's going. Frames

help that.

>> Yeah. And I also appreciate that you're you're literally like in so doing you're illuminating the path to conflict resolution for them. You're like really

laying out like how they can make you feel like you're getting what it is that you want. Like

you're making that path really clear for them. Yeah, absolutely. Another way to

them. Yeah, absolutely. Another way to do this is let's say I need to have a sensitive conversation with you or um you need to let go an employee or somebody. Let's say we sit in the room

somebody. Let's say we sit in the room and I say here's here's the bad scenario. Scenario one is you sit down.

scenario. Scenario one is you sit down.

I say, "Max, look, you've been you've been great here. How have you been? You

good? The family good? How's your your your pickle ball?" And your Yeah. Yeah.

This weather's crazy, isn't it? Yeah.

Um, so listen, uh, Max, right there, right at that moment, you know, things are going south. So, and you're just waiting for the hammer to drop right away. That's bad. That's real bad. It's

away. That's bad. That's real bad. It's

It's not going to go well, and it's going to continue to drag on and on.

Versus if I brought you in and say, "Max, this is going to be a difficult conversation." Or or if it's as simple

conversation." Or or if it's as simple as, "This isn't going to be fun to talk about. I got some bad news." Just simple

about. I got some bad news." Just simple as that. and then I let you just hang

as that. and then I let you just hang with it for three seconds, two seconds to kind of ready yourself and then I deliver that news almost every time.

What you think I'm going to say is better than what you originally thought.

We always think worst case scenario, but that's a lot better um way to provide what you said, which I love is a clear path of let's be honest. Let's not be

disingenuous. When you have that small

disingenuous. When you have that small talk at the beginning, it's you know it's it's fake. It's It's just make yourself feel a little bit more comfortable with letting them down.

>> Well, yeah. I mean, on that point, do you are you a fan of the the the compliment sandwich method?

>> No. No. I feel like it it uh tastes a little raw.

Yeah. When you ever you provide a compliment and then you say your truth and end with the compliment, it's uh has a bad aftertaste. I I find that it's

much better to lead with the bad news right away and and talk about it.

>> And then what you're able to do is begin to as a healing balm in some way, you are providing the maybe that confidence, maybe that compliment to them. So if I

need to let a go of somebody, I've done it before. I've had to let go of an

it before. I've had to let go of an employee. Say, "All right, this isn't

employee. Say, "All right, this isn't going to be fun to talk about. I need to let you go." And they go, "Okay." And I say, "Here's what we're running to, but

I'm here's here's the thing. I I want to support you wherever you want to go. I

think you're a wonderful person. There's

the compliments. I think you're going to do a lot of things. It's just not going to be here."

>> And you if you need me for a reference, it blah blah blah. That's where you can use the confidence and the compliments at the be at the end of it should you need to. But

need to. But >> it's it's never a good feeling when it's at the start when you're using that small talk of, "Oh, yeah. How your how your your parents? your parents good.

Okay. Well, say hi to them for me. Uh so

listen, uh that's when you know wamp it's it's all going south. They're just

you're just waiting for it. You're

letting you're making them twist in the wind >> and uh that's not fair. And

>> clarity is kind. Being direct is much kinder.

>> Clarity is kind.

>> Yeah.

>> I had a conflict recently that I want to share with you. And um and I I think I handled it well, but I'm not going to share how I handled it. Uh, I want I want to hear how you would handle it and

then see how that how how closely that aligns with what I what I actually did.

>> I like it.

>> So, I live in in Los Angeles in a very densely populated area. Um, and I, you know, my my bedroom is very close to the street and there I I guess I have a

neighbor that drives and parks on the street. He he he drives like a Mustang,

street. He he he drives like a Mustang, like this red Mustang with like what has to be like a massive V8 engine.

>> Yeah.

>> And this person, not only do they insist on parking or maybe they just like happen to live right next to me, but they park often times right outside of my house and my

bedroom window is like my bedroom is like right there, like right off the street. And this person seems to have a

street. And this person seems to have a job where every single morning at 5:30 in the morning, he's turning on his car and going to work. He could be like a

personal trainer. I don't know. I try

personal trainer. I don't know. I try

not to judge. I mean, this guy's hustling clearly. Every single morning

hustling clearly. Every single morning at 5:30 in the morning, this guy's turning on his engine to to to go to work, and it's a big ass engine. Most

days, it wakes me up at 5:30 in the morning. There hasn't been a single

morning. There hasn't been a single night when this guy's parked, you know.

>> Yeah.

>> Even like two houses, I still hear it.

And um and it was driving me nuts.

Driving me nuts cuz sleep is incredibly valuable. I'm generally a good sleeper.

valuable. I'm generally a good sleeper.

But every single morning, 5:30 morning, I'm waking up because this guy's turning on his freaking engine.

>> And in my head, I was like starting to write this narrative like, "I hate this You hate him. You hate him."

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Well, it could be like a blessing of an alarm clock. You know what I mean?

Like if it had not been for his his red Mustang, you wouldn't have, you know, been ready for your day, man. That's

just what >> Fair enough. Fair.

>> Yeah. And did you you talked to him?

>> So, what I did was I uh I wrote a note >> and um I left it on his windshield and I wrote a very polite note and the note was something like, "Hey, you know, hey neighbor, I hope this note finds you

well."

well." >> Yeah.

>> Um >> I hate you.

>> I hate you. Yeah. Um, I noticed that you often, you know, park outside of my house and, uh, I didn't put my name, but I put my address and, um,

and, you know, your car is, it's a beautiful car, but on startup, it without fail, I mean, it wakes me up every day at 5:30 in the morning. I

mean, like clockwork, this guy is like turning his car at 5:30, so it's clearly for a job.

>> Yeah. Um, and uh, and I was like, you know, if it's if it's no stress to you, I really value uninterrupted sleep. You

know, it would be very I'd be very grateful if you might consider if it's convenient to park a little further down the street.

>> Yeah.

>> Um, all the best. And uh, then I just signed off your neighbor and um, but that was just like >> you didn't use somebody else's name like the other neighbor.

>> I because I feel like it's like too much information. Like I gave my my general

information. Like I gave my my general address.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I blame you.

>> Um >> and did it you have any results?

>> You know, I think possibly yes. I think

it's been parking a little bit further down the street. Yeah.

>> Okay. Let's see. That's not bad.

>> Yeah. But I threw in I threw in a compliment. I was like, it's a very nice

compliment. I was like, it's a very nice car.

>> For sure. You got to compliment the car.

>> You got to compliment the car. Very nice

red Mustang.

>> Yeah.

>> Um and I was very polite in my head. I'd

written this narrative like I hate this mfer, >> right?

>> Um but you know, I don't know anything about him and like The reality is I respect him. Like I don't have to wake

respect him. Like I don't have to wake up at 5:30 in the morning. It's probably

a hard life, you know.

>> I mean, do you know what this person looks like?

>> I have no idea.

>> Yeah. See, it could have been a could have been a woman. It could be could it could be a 60y old lady. I mean, you never you never know.

>> Um, here's what comes to mind. Not at

all criticizing what you did. I mean,

it's if it sounds like it works, it works. My thoughts are one, if you have

works. My thoughts are one, if you have the way to communicate with them in person. Anytime you can, it's better.

person. Anytime you can, it's better.

Uh, usually notes on the windshield are complaints. like it's somebody parking

complaints. like it's somebody parking too close. It's somebody who and that's

too close. It's somebody who and that's when you you leave a a note on their windshields. Typically notes are passive

windshields. Typically notes are passive rather than being super upfront. It's

it's a it's a comfort thing. Next would

be using the I know and meaning you are giving qualities that you intrinsically believe that they have. So I I know by the the timing of the sound of your car,

you're a hard worker.

um not just I like your car, but you're saying something intrinsic about them. I

know you're a hard worker >> specific >> and and you're extremely disciplined in your job or your profession or you're

you and you take it very seriously. Um I

also take my job seriously as well and to do it I need to have a lot of sleep.

I know you don't mean to. I know that is certainly not your intention. You have a beautiful car. could you do me a favor

beautiful car. could you do me a favor and park a little bit further down the road or wherever. I mean, I don't know if they have to park right there or if

you have a garage. I I don't know. But

that would be my approach is I'd love to be able to talk to you about this if love to have the chance like if you've never seen them before, you don't have a chance to interact with them, I'd offer

that in in the note. We love to say hello and meet you in person.

>> That would be smart. Yeah. And then and then that way you could find out if it was really because in your head you think okay red mustang it's got to be some meatthead person that I I hate has

a gold chain and probably you know eats beef jerky and so um versus somebody who it could be you know who's it could be a

surgeon who who wakes up and saving millions of lives every day. So it's

it's having to like >> that uh getting out of our own system.

Yeah.

>> But the I know helps a lot because like if I'm having a a difficult conversation to somebody, say, "Look, I I know that you value transparency and I'm here

because of that. So, thank you for allowing me to to say this to you."

>> Or, "I know that you I know that you value honesty." And all of a sudden,

value honesty." And all of a sudden, they think in their head, "Oh, I am I am pretty honest." Or, "Hey, I I know you

pretty honest." Or, "Hey, I I know you like to keep things open-minded." They

say, "Oh, well, yes, I" In their head, they're going, "Yes, I am. Yes, I am open open-minded. And they kind of want

open open-minded. And they kind of want to rise up and take on the the quality that you gave them.

>> Yeah. It sounds like you're trying to elicit um empathy as opposed to I mean that feels like a very fine line to walk, you know, between defensiveness and empathy.

>> Yeah. Yeah. It's it's a it's a for sure it's a very fine line. Uh because you don't want to give too much of your yourself and weaken your position. At

the same time, you don't want to to come on too strong and uh weaken your credibility. So, it's it's harder when

credibility. So, it's it's harder when you don't know what the person looks like. It's harder when you haven't seen

like. It's harder when you haven't seen them in person. But, I know is a great way of priming a conversation um with with someone.

>> Can that be perceived though as condescending or presumptuous? Like, I

don't really know anything about the guy. He could, you know.

guy. He could, you know.

>> Yeah. Well, I mean, you do know I mean you well what what you do know is they wake up and leave the house at 5:30.

>> What you do know is that is a very disciplined consistent routine.

>> You do know that they take that very seriously. You don't have to know any

seriously. You don't have to know any more than that.

>> Um I mean that that alone is something worth considering. I don't think it's

worth considering. I don't think it's manipulative. I don't think it's trying

manipulative. I don't think it's trying to take advantage of anything. It's it's

simply here are the clues of what I I do know. I don't know what you look like. I

know. I don't know what you look like. I

don't know what you do. Here's what I do know. you take your alarm clock very

know. you take your alarm clock very seriously and you're very consistent about it. Um, so using that as a a

about it. Um, so using that as a a baseline of would love to get to know you more >> is a great way of opening it up rather

than if you wrote that note and go, "Hey, uh, your car wakes me up. How

about you move it down the road, buddy?"

You know, that that's not going to they're not going to do you any favors for Yeah. I mean, yeah, before I wrote

for Yeah. I mean, yeah, before I wrote the note, I mean, for weeks I'd been thinking about, you know, alternatives that were way worse, like toilet papering the guy's car, throwing eggs at it.

>> Yeah.

>> Um, I never did any of that, of course, but um but yeah, this is all super super important um and valuable advice.

>> Yeah, it's funny. you um have just been such a truly a legend in how the way you've turned in my view

arguments and negotiations on their head of just that's not how we think about them but it's the way you the techniques you teach are really I I I just find groundbreaking

>> to the person right now who is thinking I don't want anybody to disagree with me I want everybody to agree with me I want every conversation I have, an argument that I'm in, I I want to win it and

everybody needs to go along with my plan. What What would you say to that

plan. What What would you say to that person right now who feels like they always have something to prove in the conversation?

>> Yeah. You're driving people away from you.

>> Yeah.

>> You just you're consistently you're going to find your meaningful conversations are going to be fewer and fewer. They're going to be farther and

fewer. They're going to be farther and farther apart.

You know, the ones that you win will obscure how much you lose.

I I think of it as a Las Vegas slot machine effect.

Like people get addicted to the slots.

What are the numbers? How often do you win on a slot machine?

I've read that the arithmetic, the algorithm is if they let you win one in every 84 polls, you're going to keep dumping money into

the slot machine because the win is so celebratory. Like

if you got something to prove and you got somebody over a barrel and you force them into submission, it's like the slot machine going off.

The bells and the whistles are ringing.

The lights are flashing. You're getting

this huge hit of dopamine anticipation feels so good and you don't realize that you lose 83 out of 84 times and they're slowly draining your bank account. So if

you got something to prove, you're just slowly driving people away from you and suddenly you can't remember the last time you had a a breakthrough or nobody

in your industry talks to you or you people, you know, pay you the annoyance tax, make you just so you go away and you got all these small wins you but they don't accumulate. They

don't add to much. You're not doing as well as the other people that somehow they get along with people. They're not

as argumentative, but they got a bigger house than I do. They got, you know, they got a better car. They're making

more money. How did that happen? I think

you're exactly right. Um, this idea of when you trying to come in and prove everything and push people away like you said, you're only draining your own bank

account, uh, bank account of life. Uh,

and I I think that's I think that's wise listening. Does it sound like you you

listening. Does it sound like you you really studied and researched a lot on how you could manage and and and have a better relationship with the anxiety or the stress that you were

having for those eight days. Have you

had more panic attacks since the moment?

>> They've gotten less and less and less >> less and less maybe like 5 10 minutes at a time or something.

>> Yeah. So, uh well, I haven't had I probably haven't had a panic attack.

I've gotten very close probably in the last like 3 weeks. But what it is is like a sense of boiling water. Like I

can feel the water boiling and then my and I can feel it in my body like I can feel it in my fingers of >> like tingly like >> Yeah. Yeah. Or I'm typically never

>> Yeah. Yeah. Or I'm typically never somebody to shake my leg.

But if all of a sudden my leg is shaking then I'm like okay something's up and that all like that'll tell me right away of all right what what are we doing?

What's going on? Be able to kind of check in with myself and and how that's been. But it's it's progress much

been. But it's it's progress much better. Yeah, it it really has. Therapy

better. Yeah, it it really has. Therapy

helps.

>> Yeah.

>> And the that was really the source was not feeling alone in this kind of ecosystem that I didn't ask for like that. This is

never my goal of like if I can only get so many >> followers. Yeah.

>> followers. Yeah.

>> Yeah. It was like a let's just go I don't know. I got a few minutes. Let's

don't know. I got a few minutes. Let's

go talk to my phone.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

What is the what has the relationship been like with your wife and your kids since experiencing the rise of your audience, but also

the stress and and panic that you've experienced over the last 6 months? How

has your wife shown up for you and and how has it made you relate to your family differently? Well, the having

family differently? Well, the having kids is make me much more just empathetic as a as a person. And I'll

tell you that it's it is a way that we relate to each other is when I see them start to get really emotional. I can see myself in it. My

emotional. I can see myself in it. My

son looks a lot like me and so like I can it's very much this kind of weird inner child like dialogue. Like I'm

telling him things that I wish I could have >> I would have been told at, you know, hey man, it's okay to cry.

>> Wow.

>> Just let it out. Let it out. I was never told that.

>> But I went, I'm not going to make that mistake. And so my son is extremely

mistake. And so my son is extremely waterworks all the time. And I love it.

I mean, he's emotional in movies. I love

it. You know, I was And so I to to see that where I go, "No, no, no. I've I've

had that mistake of trying to put on those Jefferson's got it all together.

Mask.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Just I got it all. I got it all together.

>> It's It's You are just let it out, man.

>> It's all good. It's all good. And he

will he'll just cry say I can't help it.

I'll say >> you don't need to. You're good, man.

>> You're good. He's He's very both of my kids are extremely um empathetic with >> with movies. Um, I I shared something

before of this was like not that long ago and my son says, "How your day was, Dad?" It

was good, buddy. We It was It was It was good. And he was like, "What? What' you

good. And he was like, "What? What' you

do?" I was like, "Well, it was it was good. It was a good day. It was fine.

good. It was a good day. It was fine.

Truthfully, it was not good. Like, it

was it was a really horrible >> It was a rough day. It was a rough day.

I was tired. And later on that evening, he came up to me again. He said, "So why'd you tell me your day was good when it wasn't?"

it wasn't?" >> Wow.

>> I said, "What?" He said, "You didn't."

He said, "You said it was good, but it didn't. You didn't say it like it was

didn't. You didn't say it like it was good."

good." >> I was like, "How did you how did you know?" He's like, "You said it like it

know?" He's like, "You said it like it wasn't good. You said it like it was

wasn't good. You said it like it was bad. I feel everything."

bad. I feel everything."

>> Yes. And I was like, >> "How are you this young?" And like he could already sense it. Like he told me he was good. He wasn't.

>> Wow. And so that that kind of aspect of it when you say how's my wife shown up for me. She's allowed me to have the

for me. She's allowed me to have the time to kind of explore, hey, you need to make sure you're taking care of yourself. And she's awesome at

yourself. And she's awesome at supporting anything that I'm after and we support both of our careers. She has

a full-time career as her doing her thing in in in school and school law.

And I have my my legal career. And in

terms of the social media stuff, it doesn't affect anything. Like you could you could call it fin like nobody at my house. It doesn't exist at my house.

house. It doesn't exist at my house.

>> It's just uh your dad, mom, kids, >> right?

>> Mayhem, right?

>> That's all that's all it is. Now, she's

very supportive of it and they know that every once in a while dad will make a video.

>> Sure.

>> So, because they want to make videos. If

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