The New Designers Superpower (Code + AI)

Jenny Wen led design on Fig Jam, which is one of the most playful highcraft tools to hit the design world in arguably the last decade. Changed how

team's whiteboard, how people think about collaboration. And then she went

about collaboration. And then she went to enthropic. Now she's designing

to enthropic. Now she's designing Claude, the product, not just the model.

And I was curious how you go from sticky notes and stamps to one of the most complex, highest responsibility domains in tech. Turns out she doesn't view them

in tech. Turns out she doesn't view them as different at all. Fig Jam was this complex multiplayer canvas disguised as something simple. And Claude is a large

something simple. And Claude is a large language model disguised as a chat box.

Both require the same skill. Taking

something impossibly complicated under the hood and making it extremely obvious to the person using it. We get into a lot why designers at Enthropic are

shipping production code. why she thinks UX designer is a role is outdated and this philosophy that she keeps coming back to of automate toil augment

creativity. But when I asked her about

creativity. But when I asked her about burnout, she said something that I wasn't expecting. She's worked some of

wasn't expecting. She's worked some of her longest hours on the projects that energized her the most. And her worst moments weren't when she was exhausted.

They were when she wasn't shipping. This

is State of Play. Let's get into it.

you came from Fig Jam, right? And and

really led that effort and brought this super playful kind of high craft experience in to to a lot of people. I

mean, it changed, I think, how a lot of teams work. And now you're over in in

teams work. And now you're over in in this space with Claude and you're really working in in kind of this complex I'd say one of the most complex and high

responsibility domains in tech and and I just want to kick this whole thing off because I have to ask you how do you kind of balance between both of those forces?

>> Interesting. Uh which two forces specifically? Well, coming from kind of

specifically? Well, coming from kind of it feels like Fig Jam would be this really exploratory playful place. How do

teams work? How do we bring this uh maybe we can be a little bit um thoughtful about how teams are going to engage and interact in this canvas in

this um collaborative space and now high trust uh is is extremely important in at anthropic. Is there are there

anthropic. Is there are there differences? Is there like a perspective

differences? Is there like a perspective you bring from one to the other that's maybe a little different? Yeah, it's

interesting because you think about them as like the way you stated it is like they're two really different things. I

actually think that the two products, they are actually very similar in a lot of ways and I actually think take a lot of similar like acumen to build for cuz even though Fig Jam feels like this sort

of like simple fun like you jump right into it kind of experience, there's like so much complex mechanics under the hood. um you know, you're dealing with

hood. um you know, you're dealing with this like multiplayer canvas and like the really the way that we designed it was how do we just give people the right options that simplify the experience so that way they can just like jump into it

even though under the hood it's basically the same multiplayer canvas and mechanics as like the Figma design editor. Um so that approach is just like

editor. Um so that approach is just like make this complex thing simple and sort of fun for people to use. Um and I think actually this exact same philosophy exists for a product like Claude, right?

because you're dealing with this like really complex again also non-deterministic um thing which is like the LM like the clawed models right but we are trying to present them in a way

that is simple and often playful and easy to use for people who a lot of the time might not actually understand what's going on under the hood with the LLM. Um, so I actually think that like

LLM. Um, so I actually think that like design skill-wise like it hasn't been I mean I've learned a lot about LLMs and whatnot, but it sort of requires the same level of systems thinking to like

understand the understanding the underlying mechanics and as well as the same level of craft to be able to execute it in a simple way for you know a broad user base to be able to use if that makes sense.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, and what's what's pretty interesting, too, is, you know, coming from a lot of our traditional product backgrounds, and I've got to imagine it might have been this way with Fig Jam, is how do we introduce the

right amount of complexity and and reduce some of the things that aren't necessary right away, we look at something like Claude, it seems like surfacing a lot of things under the hood, um, while it might feel kind of

counterintuitive. I I want to introduce

counterintuitive. I I want to introduce AI into a product and I want to balance that with human agency. And we're we're thinking about this with one of our kind of more consumer-driven apps right now.

What amount of complexity or how do you make the decision of what should be surfaced by default in a product that's that's so AI powered?

>> Yeah, I mean I think we're still trying to figure that out honestly, right? like

um give like for example some like you know an LLM can have these basically capabilities like memory like cont like a context window and I think we have a lot of these discussions of like oh like

how much of this should we reveal to people and I think we're finding also that like as people are becoming more and more comfortable with AI they actually themselves are internalizing a

lot of these concepts like they realize you know hey I need to sometimes switch over from this chat to a new one because Claude's context window has been exceeded. And so they sort of understand

exceeded. And so they sort of understand like okay the LLM can only handle so much information at a time. Um, and I think this is like an internal debate that we're having and I think our stance is evolving too on just like how much do

we reveal to people and I think we are starting to push the other way where we're like okay we don't need to abstract everything away to people and actually a large set of our users who are you know these like AI enthusiasts

people who are super early adopters they actually I think want to have some of this information out there and for them to understand um because that actually makes their usage of the tool better and

it it lets them do more powerful things.

Our sort of like philosophies and principles around how to design for AI is just like I think the needle is moving and it will consistently move as we sort of see our audience change and

become more and more um I think understanding of how LLMs work.

>> And how do you start to think about um you know you talk about some of the principles over at Enthropic on on how we introduce AI to to the end user. How

do you start to think about making tradeoffs between we should automate this, we should get more agentic um or we should add intentional friction so that the the human can remain in the

loop on that.

>> Yeah. Um so our the philosophy that we have internally is like we should um augment you know the kind we we have these like two uh kind of uh modes of

using AI which is like augmentation um which is like working with the AI to do something and then automation which is like you know it does the task for you.

Um and the way we think about it is like we should automate toil like the things that people hate doing with their jobs.

um like you know filling up status updates and like uh you know checking that these two doc documents are exactly the same that you're looking at and stuff like that. The stuff that like isn't creative and it's just like you

know we call it toil. Um and then we should have Claude augment you know the things that you love to do and and help you be more creative and help you do more with your work and whatnot. Um, so

that's a general philosophy and and I think we also believe that as the models get more agentic, it's more about like collaborating with the the model as

opposed to like giving it everything to do all at once. Um, especially as like, you know, right now the model is going to be as the worse it's going to be at sort of like doing some of these tasks

and like throughout you using Claude to be to do agentic things, building that trust over time. So I think you'll see in earlier days we'll ask you to verify a lot of stuff and sort of check and

sort of have this transparency around what cloud can do sort of like what extended thinking does today. But I

think over time like as you the user gain more trust with the model around like checking its outputs and making sure it's doing the right thing because I think that stuff actually might get old to you after a while. Uh you might

just be like cool claude can do this. I

trust it. I don't really need to see what it's thinking all the time. I

recently had a great conversation with Rio Louu uh from Cursor and and we spoke about this metaphor of kind of the fog of war, right? Old games we would play

and you explore the map and the the shroud uncovers and you know my question is about pathf finding in in a product

at scale like Claude um with so much ambiguity. I'm I'm sure ambiguity is the

ambiguity. I'm I'm sure ambiguity is the same from one place to the other, but I've got to imagine this territory is so new. What are some of the methods that

new. What are some of the methods that you're finding your team using to best pathf find in this crazy ambiguous space?

>> I don't know if the methods are that different than they used to be, you know. Um, I think the tools that we have

know. Um, I think the tools that we have are better for sure, you know, like a lot of it really is prototyping. Um, and

prototyping a real thing. Like I think when you are working with an LM, it often doesn't help actually to make an interactive prototype that's just like

clickable. Um, even like I I used to

clickable. Um, even like I I used to make prototypes in framer way back when and I was like, oh, this is like, you know, a technical prototype because it can show all these states and it has like all these animations and

interactions. U but I think a lot of

interactions. U but I think a lot of times now you have to like make a prototype that is using the model, right? and and so that way you can sort

right? and and so that way you can sort of like interact with it um and see what it responses are and whatnot and that often includes like prompting and I think that often actually requires like working directly with an engineer. I

think even some of the most technical designers um it you can only get so far with a prototype that you can make because you're not just prototyping the UI and the interactions but you're actually prototyping the capabilities

built on top of the model.

>> I'm noticing that prototypes have started to replace a lot of things for us. I mean, we'll we'll still write some

us. I mean, we'll we'll still write some PRDs, but they're a lot scrappier. And

prototypes have started to become kind of the centerpiece of of our our handoff and our meetings. And I'm curious uh to hear from you, how much does prototyping

play a role in in like the early discovery of of new ideas?

>> I think most of our new ideas come from prototypes. There have been some things

prototypes. There have been some things that I have like mocked up in a flat way and um and done sort of like a clickable prototype for just to like prove a

concept. But um actually a lot of ideas

concept. But um actually a lot of ideas come from engineers who are making prototypes as well. They're usually

again like they're prototypes of capabilities as opposed to prototypes of UI or interactions. Um, and those are the things that sort of like changed the game for us.

>> Coming from Fig Jam and and the collaborative piece and people kind of working together in that early discovery to organize and synthesize um, in a canvas. In your mind, do you think

canvas. In your mind, do you think prototyping becomes a sort of collaborative early stage artifact as well?

>> Yeah, I mean I think so. When we were working on Fig Jam, a lot of the prototypes there were they were a little bit more design driven, you know, because a lot of them were sort of interactions as opposed to like tech

technical capabilities. Um, but a lot of

technical capabilities. Um, but a lot of that was just like or or a lot of the the prototyping at um, Enthropic tends

to be okay like one person made a prototype here and then somebody else like riffs on it and makes another version of the prototype there and it sort of like builds on each other over

time and those ideas like come back to each other come back to us like time over time and eventually it becomes something that we actually like pursue.

Um it's less so like okay we decide you know we are going to prototype this specific thing. It's a little bit more

specific thing. It's a little bit more organic actually. It's like the

organic actually. It's like the prototypes gain heat over time in the organization and people sort of get nerdstyped into the prototypes. Um we do have like a corner of the org that does

do very explicit prototyping and their their job is to just like basically go through different hypotheses and like prototype them out. Um, but I actually think some of the more successful prototypes I've seen were just like

people across the org prototyping things in their own spare time and those things gaining momentum.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I love the permissionless approach of of doing that. Is that a pretty is that a pretty standard cultural thing at Enthropic to just kind of put it together and see?

>> Yeah, I think so. I think so. That feels

like it's the most effective method for ideas to come together. And I also think that's just the way it happens. I feel

like sometimes when you're like sort of told to to think hard and to brainstorm about something, you actually don't have the best ideas. Like the best ideas just come and they strike at the most random moments and then you just sort of gain

energy around them. So yeah, I think it's both effective in getting the idea across across the organization, but it's also effective I think in sometimes getting people to get the best ideas.

>> Yeah. And you've said similarly about process and and I love that too with you know design process is just kind of this muddy messy place and sometimes we'll follow one linear approach and then sometimes we'll do a different thing and

I'm curious you with such a robust background are there things that you're seeing in in day-to-day workflows that are quite a bit different from let's say

your time at Figma or Dropbox. I mean I do think the big thing is designers are implementing code you know through um

especially through using cloud code. Um

that has been the biggest difference I think from working anthropic versus like back when I worked at Figma even though I'm I'm guessing that at Figma now they probably are doing stuff like this too

given the availability of the tooling.

Um, but it's crazy to think about like how quickly the sort of like development tooling for non-developers has progressed in the last, you know, six

months or so. Um, even today we were like reporting some bugs and some quality issues and like one of the designers was like, "Cool, let me just fix them." Um, and that was cool to just

fix them." Um, and that was cool to just like have Yeah. and not have to like tag an engineer for for them to do anything.

Anthropic is actually kind of similar to what it was like at Figma in that it was it didn't really follow a process. But I

think that's probably because what we were doing at Figma at that time was like kind of radical. Um like we were sort of developing products in this sort of like wild west kind of like [ __ ] the process way before like other people

were. And I think that's actually what

were. And I think that's actually what created a lot of the magic of Figma and made us execute really well is that we didn't follow that process. Um and I think so similarly at anthropic like there isn't a prescribed process. A lot

of it is like intuition and just being like, "Oh, that is like a very cool idea. There's something there. Let's

idea. There's something there. Let's

like try it out." Maybe one difference at Anthropic is like, um, given that we are working on top of a new technology

and we, you know, work at this research lab where the technology is being invented, we often are just like taking the technology and trying to find the best fit of the problem for it. Um and

so as a designer it often doesn't make sense for you to make this like grandiose like vision deck and being like cool two years from now we are going to do this this this um because even though we can sort of see where the

model is going in like a year or two we just like don't know um and so often like design needs to follow what the model is capable of and design from

there as opposed to starting from like a design vision first kind of thing and I think that can feel like tough as a designer because you're like oh I want to be designled you we should be designing it first and then the technology should follow. But I

think that's just the reality of like working at a research lab where it's like the technology is emergent and you have to sort of like decide what to do with it.

>> It's a really interesting call out because I you know I think a lot of designers like to start with the the ideal state and they're thinking too I mean that's how we're thinking what does this what does V4 look like? All right,

let's go backwards from that. And you're

saying that's typically how you'd operate, but in this case, you're so much more dependent upon where the models go that it's almost kind of uh redundant to do that. Or

>> yeah, I mean, I think there's still a little bit of a tension like there is still sometimes like hey, we want it to we want the model in the next like generation or so to be better at like X use case and you can like definitely

form the training. But I think it's still a large portion of it is just like cool like the model is good at this.

These are the new capabilities. what can

how can we design for that?

>> So I want to ask you a question and I don't talk a lot yet um about the job market and the the real like role of the designer in that context and I feel like

you of a lot of people we've spoken to would have some incredible insight or some ideas about this. So I have four teenage boys, >> okay, >> different skill sets and things that they're really excited about and some of

them love to build. Um, and they're not thinking about I want to be, you know, a developer or a designer. They're not

necessarily saying that out loud.

They're just having a great time building. But I have a lot of people

building. But I have a lot of people who, you know, that I talk to day-to-day who are like, I don't know, am I a designer? I don't know what skills to to

designer? I don't know what skills to to lean into. Um, what makes me hireable?

lean into. Um, what makes me hireable?

When you look at the market today and when you're evaluating talent to come onto the team, what are some of the things that you're really looking at in designers >> specifically for hiring at anthropic?

Like we've been thinking, we've been looking for people who sort of do have this like experience and sort of excitement about AI and sort of where it's going. Um, we

it's going. Um, we I think we just like talk a lot about like people people who can sort of like help see the future with these models

and sort of like understand um, you know, where they're going and are sort of like hacky and scrappy and like like to try things with them. Um, I don't think that's necessarily like a always a prerequisite, but I think that really

helps. I think if I were personally like

helps. I think if I were personally like a um a hiring model, a hiring manager like anywhere else as well. Um I would also look to to see if folks are just

like really flexible and sort of like able to like learn and like kind of question their process. Um cuz I do think so much of that is changing right now. it does make a big difference like

now. it does make a big difference like someone who's like willing to like try out new technology um try out new parts of the process like think about the flexibility of their role and not just like like cool like you know I am a

designer I like work on my mockups at Figma it's like no our roles are very much expanding contracting in some ways expanding in others um and having this sort of like flexibility but also like

growth mindset and like ability to pick up new things and try them I think it's going to be like a skill that you want on a team but also I think it's a skill that everybody sort needs to have right

now. Um because so much is changing.

now. Um because so much is changing.

>> Big advocate of this idea of creating your own kind of personal playgrounds so that you can do that in kind of a space that you don't have someone to answer to. You can just kind of build some

to. You can just kind of build some things out. And I love I love that

things out. And I love I love that concept. Plus, it it allows me to kind

concept. Plus, it it allows me to kind of refresh a lot. Do you do you think that we're going to see more and more generalists because the tooling is so broad now? Or do you think we're still

broad now? Or do you think we're still going to kind of go down specialist route? I hate making these predictions

route? I hate making these predictions because I'm like any I feel like with AI especially I'm like anything could happen like in the next six months anything can happen. Um I I do think

it's going to be more of a generalist world. Um cuz like even I think even now

world. Um cuz like even I think even now like I feel like a lot of the designers at Anthropic for example are pretty technical right and they can write like production code and I actually think

that's like pretty advantageous for the folks that are like really technical. I

think in the new world, right, when we have a lot of these tools at our disposal, um it's really just going to be like what is your ability to use a whole breath of them and sort of like understand how they work and fit

together. Um, and I think it's like

together. Um, and I think it's like also, you know, as a designer's sort of portfolio of things that they do also expands into like PM work for example, like being able to do that and like

drive initiatives and and and and sort of like get people to execute on the team like I think is also going to be a really um a really useful skill because I'm sort of seeing that design role stretch into those two corners as well.

>> Are you are you playing with any technology at the moment? Do you give yourself room to kind of have a playground? Do you have time for things

playground? Do you have time for things like that lately?

>> Am I? I try to outside of work. Yeah.

Like I try to like try out all the new tools mostly like for sort of like competitive intelligence. Um but also

competitive intelligence. Um but also there are a lot of new tools. Like I

feel like every day there's like a new like design or development or like agent tool um that's coming up and I I don't know if I have like time necessarily to try them all in my design process, but

I'm like trying to keep an eye out. Are

are there things in the technology you've seen either at Anthropic or or just in the industry right now that are really exciting you um that maybe you know there's there's hype everywhere.

We're seeing it all over the place. I

can't get every single day there's something new, but is are there like some things that have at least piqu your curiosity? Maybe you haven't played with

curiosity? Maybe you haven't played with them yet, but they've been they've looked interesting.

>> Basically any sort of design generation tool that like spits out a ca on a canvas I think is really interesting because that feels like a big unlock.

Um, and it's pretty different from, you know, like a lovable or bolt models where it sort of spits it out into like this linear web page.

>> You're talking like the floras and the weevy type models or >> uh Yes. And like there's like magic path too. Um,

too. Um, >> magic path paper. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Those are really interesting. I do

think it's like the ceiling or the not even the ceiling, the floor for creating like a really good functional like canvas tool is like very high. Um, so I think it's going to be a while before one of these is like really good enough

for for like a designer to use full time, but I'm excited about them because it feels like a it's like a missing gap in our like designer's toolkit.

>> There's another side of this and and I love talking to you about this because I mean there's just already seems like there's like a joy in a lot of this stuff that you do, but there's got to be

this level of intense com competition right right now. this level of um just high stakes, high performance. And and

I'm curious if that's true, and maybe it's not, but if that's true, how do you keep kind of the joy and the curiosity alive when you've got all those like pressures around you?

>> I mean, I find joy in winning, you know what I mean? Like, and I I feel find joy in like competition and like things that move quickly and um I find it very hard

to uh perform without pressure. So that

and maybe that's just in the way I'm wired is I I sort of like it when it feels like there's a space and everyone's moving quickly and you sort of have to like look over your shoulder and it's and it's also very cool to see

just like a lot of great work come out from like different teams and think about like oh yeah they did it really well or like oh I think we can do it better and how might we do that? Like I

I sort of like the challenge of being like cool like this other team did it really well but like I I have the confidence and I believe in us as a team that we can do it even better. Speed is

this like thing that I've had such a complex relationship with throughout my entire career. Um I have learned to make

entire career. Um I have learned to make very fast decisions and and it's it's almost like I've had to build this strange mental model around that's okay.

That's the you know that's only that's the the 80% like it it's going to impact the 80% of the product and that's cool.

These days though, the mandate for my team is, you know, we're really trying to move quickly across like every week there's some new initiative it feels like. And the the question here is when

like. And the the question here is when you motivate a team, you're you're intrinsically motivated by winning. That

may be the case with some people on the team and there there may be other things that people are looking to get fulfillment from. How do you keep the

fulfillment from. How do you keep the the drum beat around speed? How much is speed part of the the culture over there?

>> Yeah. Um I mean speed is a part of the culture for sure. uh cuz we are sort of we are faced with so much competition but also like the the speed of the like

the models advancements are just also really fast like if you think about you know how many model releases there already have been this year I I don't know how many there have been but I feel like at the beginning of the year we

were we were like dealing with cloud 31 or something and now we're at like 41 and so it's like we've already launched a bunch of stuff and like the techn is always moving. Um, how do you mo

always moving. Um, how do you mo motivate people? Um, I mean, at

motivate people? Um, I mean, at Anthropic, it's like very mission driven, right? Like it's it's all about

driven, right? Like it's it's all about delivering safe AI and like increasing the number of safe tokens there are in the world. Um, and I actually think it's

the world. Um, and I actually think it's like it's actually not hard to motivate people around that because that's usually the reason they joined. Um,

because there are other labs you can join, right? And that's that's most

join, right? And that's that's most people are sort of motivated by that.

Um, and so I think a lot of the time it's like bringing back the reasons why we're doing something to that, you know, uh, like the reason we want to win as a

product wing, right, is so that way we can make revenue to support building safe AI, um, to build these safe models to do the sort of research in order to improve AI safety. And so it's like

folks are not motivated by, you know, winning from a product perspective.

that's more so motivating folks around the mission and and being the company that sort of shepherds safe AI into the world.

>> When I think about, you know, we're incorporating some uh AI patterns into one of our products and you start to think about how do you layer on AI?

Well, we you know, maybe we have we have a couple of patterns um and and mental models for thinking about this. Now, we

can look at a lot of people. Microsoft

put out something great a few years ago on how they were treating interaction patterns around AI and then everybody else has continued to to build these libraries. It it used to be to me that

libraries. It it used to be to me that in in at least desktop interfaces we were probably reaching some sort of ceiling of patterns. Um and at that point we're just kind of you know

reusing things and adding little tweaks here. Do you think that there is a we've

here. Do you think that there is a we've already reached a ceiling or we've opened new territory when it comes to interacting with like large language models on on desktop or mobile devices

or do you think like that's just completely wide open again?

>> I think it's still wide open. Like I

think we have we are at a place with chat where we're like okay it actually is like pretty effective for a lot of things and it's like not going away. I

do think in in whatever future there is, there's some part of our interface with AI that is still chat, you know, like it is just like the most natural, the most

flexible, the most powerful way for us to communicate with it. Um, but I think it's like the model's capabilities are continuing to get better and it will be able to do be capable of more things and we still have to like figure out the

right patterns for that and we have to figure out how that interacts with chat like what part what which parts of interacting with the model should happen in sort of like more guided UIs and

which parts should remain in chat. Um,

and I think it's like really interesting to watch the industry sort of figure these things out together. Um, and and see different products evolve. And so I don't think we have reached some like

local maximum or anything yet.

>> One of the trends we talk about, you know, what's happening all over Twitter is is the hype cycles are are continuous and loud. And what's interesting to me

and loud. And what's interesting to me is I'd say Anthropic's actually one of the folks who doesn't really subscribe to overhyping um around the models and the things going on. Not to say you guys don't do

going on. Not to say you guys don't do marketing. Um and I'm curious from you

marketing. Um and I'm curious from you because because what I'm hearing from a lot of people and I I feel like I'm this third party who fends off the cynicism.

I'm like yes, the promise of AI is a little janky sometimes and you really have to go into it with a certain frame of mind. But what's not helping someone

of mind. But what's not helping someone like me is the overhype of things and the underdely of what's coming and people feel like they've been burned over and over. I'm curious to hear from

you. How do you think about hype and how

you. How do you think about hype and how do you think that kind of influences the mission at Anthropic?

Yeah, I will say I I have noticed that we like I'm not in marketing, but I also have noticed that we don't like overhype our abilities and we're also like very cautious to um not claim that we're like

good at something before we're good at it. Like for example, like we often just

it. Like for example, like we often just like say things are on beta or research preview for often like longer than I think we should. But I I appreciate that. Like I sort of appreciate that we

that. Like I sort of appreciate that we are not overclaiming what we are we're doing. And I think that's what that's

doing. And I think that's what that's doing is that is creating trust with our users. Um, especially because a lot of

users. Um, especially because a lot of our users are sort of like power users and early adopters and they they can sus out like is this fake or not. So, I

appreciate that. I appreciate that sort of like working in openness and like trying these tools out and open. Um, but

I think you know hype cycles will die down and at the end of the day it's like where do we see users going and that sort of is going to be the thing that tells the truth about what's working and what's not.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I you know I have to tell you speaking of hype cycles I am I am just like this uh regular consumer of of new tools and technology. I just love trying it. Let me give it a good day. Um

trying it. Let me give it a good day. Um

and I keep finding myself when it comes to the AI coding um AI powered coding tools. Cloud code is just in my opinion

tools. Cloud code is just in my opinion hasn't there's nothing that's beat it yet. Keep finding myself coming back to

yet. Keep finding myself coming back to it. But I am curious because one of the

it. But I am curious because one of the challenges around the actual um development of software has been well we we can kind of lean into tailwinds. We

can kind of lean into shad CN and we're getting a lot of things that look similar there. Screenshots I think seem

similar there. Screenshots I think seem to help a lot in these aspects of of bringing that but but the the front end the UI is still I think a lot to uh be desired in in some of these and and what

do you think how do you think that's going to start to evolve? Do you think it is just a paradigm of like canvas tools helping us tweak that or do you think there's there's something more there on how we bring like good

interactive experiences to life through AI?

>> Yeah, I mean I think a lot of it is the model needs to be trained to be better at it. Um I think they will get better

at it. Um I think they will get better at it and probably within the next like few months to a year like I think we'll see you know the the quality of like and

not like I think all the different models uh that sort of do this work I think we'll see the quality of the UI being produced be much much better because it's it's already gotten a lot better in the last year or so.

>> Yeah. And then there's the the question of of kind of collaboration. And I've

seen people spin up just agents and agents that are just coding and collaborating with each other.

Meanwhile, and maybe this is a skill issue, it probably is. I I have a hard time if I'm going to go deep into uh you know, we'll use the term vibe coding with like cloud code for a second and

I'm working in a codebase with another engineer somewhere. How do you think

engineer somewhere. How do you think about especially coming from with Fig Jam, how do you think about two people communicating with an AI to code but collaborating on the same project together? Do you think there's like this

together? Do you think there's like this big difference between how we use version control in a manual environment versus how we might collaborate with uh you know augmented by AI or is it pretty

much the same?

>> I think we're starting to see that it can be kind of the same you know like especially as the models get more capable of like doing longunning tasks.

Um, I think we're sort of seeing the like cloud code for example show up in all the surfaces that you're already working in and like be able to do stuff from GitHub like it's you know your coworker that you're assigning it stuff

to do. I wonder though like when there

to do. I wonder though like when there is a world when you are just running a fleet of agents and not necessarily like working with people like maybe there's just one project and it's just work

agents working on that and it's not people like there probably might there might be like a different interface because like you know right now like putting something in a GitHub PR that's like really readable to like you and me

but maybe it's like actually not the most readable thing for an agent. So I

don't know. I'm guessing that some of these um surfaces might actually evolve to better lend themselves to agents.

>> Where you're at today and you think back to uh I had said it earlier, you know, something I've never said to myself is I want to become a designer. Did you ever say that I'm going to be a designer when you first started?

>> Um I think so. I did like I actually uh in high school actually I wanted to become like a print designer like somebody who designs like the layouts of magazines. Um, and I actually remember

magazines. Um, and I actually remember reading 17 magazine when I was a teenager and they had a uh a sort of article about what it was like to be a

layout designer of 17 magazine. And I

thought that was like so freaking cool.

And that's when I decided I wanted to be a layout designer of a magazine. And

then I eventually like applied to go to graphic design school but actually didn't get into the schools that I wanted to go to and then did not go to graphic design school and then eventually became a designer. Yeah.

Well, and your background's so interesting and and it's clear through talking with you, you have a very competitive spirit. You're very

competitive spirit. You're very forwardthinking person, optimistic about the future. Where do you think a lot of

the future. Where do you think a lot of this started like in your adolescence?

Where what was kind of where was there a moment that was maybe the first time you were really competitive about something or brought something to life and said, "I want to do this at scale."

>> Yeah, that's so deep. I'm like, I I don't know where this comes from. Where

have I been competitive? I think I've always just really liked being good at things. I was honestly like a lazy

things. I was honestly like a lazy person. I was like a lazy teenager and a

person. I was like a lazy teenager and a lazy kid. Um I think it was mostly just

lazy kid. Um I think it was mostly just cuz like I was never challenged, you know? Like I was just I think I like I

know? Like I was just I think I like I like think I knew I was like pretty smart, but then I think school was like pretty easy for me and so I was just lazy, you know? I just I would just show up doing what's expected of me and like

not really do anything else. I actually

think I only really learned how to apply myself when I went to university. Um,

and I went to engineering school specifically because I was like, "Oh, everyone else here is like really [ __ ] smarter and they might be they most of them are smarter than me." Um,

and basically the program that I went to at the University of Water, you have to do internships basically for half the time that you're in school and you basically graduate with like two years

of work experience. But that also like puts you in this like pretty intense cycle because you are like you're doing school um and you're doing it for four months at a time and the like school is

like pretty competitive too. Like people

fail out all the time. Like I think only 60% of our class made it to graduation.

Um and and then you're also trying to get a job during that semester that you're studying super hard in. Um and

that was the first time in my life where I was like, "Oh my god, like I might fail. I might not make it." and I

fail. I might not make it." and I actually have to try really hard. And I

think through that period of time, doing all those hard things at one time, I was like, "Oh, cool. Like, I'm actually capable of a lot. Like, I can do this.

If I apply myself and work really hard, I can graduate. I can get a job." Um,

and I think that just gave me the sort of confidence in myself that like, oh, I can whatever it is, I can learn it and I can get through it. So, um I think that really stoked like not just a

competitiveness but also just like cool like I know how to apply myself and I believe in myself kind of thing.

>> You know that resonates with me so much because you know I've I've been in a lot of situations where I've just kind of had to have some grit and push through.

And it it doesn't mean it's been it's not been without its pain, but it almost seems like anytime I suggest that that's something that's worked for me. I do get sometimes push back from people and say,

"Oh, that's you know, you're you're talking about burnout and you're not approaching it with a certain sense of care." Um, and and in my mind, I think,

care." Um, and and in my mind, I think, you know, and even right now, the kinds of if you're trying to achieve something larger than yourself, there are going to be a lot of times where you have to make

that choice. What do you say to

that choice. What do you say to designers and people who, you know, are are feeling like they're moving mountains and and maybe not getting the rest that they think they need, but

they're clo, you know, like what do you what do you say to people who are experiencing kind of the burnout?

>> Yeah. I mean, I think I would ask people and question like why are they experiencing burnout? Um because I do

experiencing burnout? Um because I do think that like one thing we often equate burnout to is just like time spent working, you know, and I do think that's like actually one way to get burnout. It's like, oh, if you're just

burnout. It's like, oh, if you're just like working all the time and you are not getting rest, like that is a way you can get burnout. And I' I have gotten burnout that way. And like it's like, cool, you should take some rest. Um, but

I al I think another big way that folks get burnout is like when the work that they are doing is not fulfill like the goals that they have, you know. Um, and

I find this a lot where it's like, oh, if I feel like I'm working on something and it's like not going anywhere or it's like not challenging or exciting to me, like I can put in medium amount of

effort, but I probably feel worse that I do than when I'm like working on something really hard that I really care about. Like some of like my most

about. Like some of like my most energizing moments at work, I've like worked really long hours to be honest, but then I, you know, put something out there and like ship something great.

Like for example, when we were shabby jam, I was like working all the time, but then I was like super excited about what we were doing. Um, but then like so my worst moments at work have just been like, "Hey, like everything's pretty

slow. Like we're not shipping. Um, I'm

slow. Like we're not shipping. Um, I'm

not working that hard to be honest, but like I don't feel good, you know, and I'm not ne burnt out, but I'm just not feeling great." So, um, I would question

feeling great." So, um, I would question like, hey, like why are you experiencing like what is it that you that you're experiencing burnout around? Like is it time spent? like with that like I think

time spent? like with that like I think that is kind of hard to solve if your job just demands a lot from you and it just like is a lot of time but like maybe it's actually more a question of like you don't feel like you're spending

time on the right things and you like disagree with like the way that the organization works or the things that the the organization is asking from you then like that feels like potentially

okay cool like what do you care about what energizes you and how can you find something or like align to something that like gives you energy even if it is you know a lot of time spent.

>> So you you know you're you're at that tail end of Waterlue. You're you're

finding a job or you're at that tail end of like fig jam just launched right and you mentioned rest. How do you rest?

>> I I I love to just uh be a potato for some period of time because I do think it's like really nice to just like let the brain rest to just lie down. Like

that's a big thing in recovery. Um, and

that usually I think takes it depends what it is, but it could that itself could be a full week or two, you know.

Um, and then and then after that it's like put it's like it's it's often like doing a lot of the things that I've put off in the past. It's like, oh yeah, like I have been meaning to update like my portfolio website or something and

then like getting to that and feeling like cool, I I did something and it was like useful and I'm glad I finally got to it and I like cleared my plate. Um,

you know, I finally cleaned this one part of my house. I did it. Um, and then I feel like the next stage then is like, okay, what are the new things that I can start to pick up? Um, so it feels like yeah, these are like stages of recovery.

It's like sort of like declare bankruptcy on your brain of all the things that have been loading it. And

then the other thing is like, you know, do the things you've been putting off.

Um, and then finally do net new things.

I think those are my stages of recovery.

>> I I love that. That's actually such a fantastic way to frame that. That's very

cool.

um my startup background uh created a a a company back in like 2014 and 2015 and it and it just happened to catch

wildfire um pretty quickly and I look back at that time we we sold that company and I've always wondered um I've had like this thing has nagged at me for a while I'm like oh my gosh will I ever

have an opportunity to work at something that um is so widely received or wellreceived and at at scale or Was or was that it? You know, do you have you ever experienced kind of a moment of

pause about that when you look back at some of the things you've been able to achieve and and then you find yourself now at Enthropic like Big Jam? Were you

like, "Oh my gosh, was that was that the height?"

height?" >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I do sort of

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I do sort of feel that way about uh some of like the earlier FJ jam days actually. Um and

it's I I don't know if like I have also found that yet here. Uh cuz I think that was specifically like oh I like basically started like founded this product with like a small group of

people. Um and there was honestly just

people. Um and there was honestly just like such great energy on that team for like the few years um that I was working on it where like things just sort of like felt magical and they fell into

place. Everybody worked really well

place. Everybody worked really well together. Everyone was um like really

together. Everyone was um like really fast too and so like I would be like hey like there's like this one bug and then it would be like immediately fixed. Um,

and it was like so magical and like it felt like everyone was at the top of their game too where they were just like making things that were just consistently delightful and we were ripping on each other's work and um I

think there was like early days of sort of like a product too because there's also like no tech debt, you know, and everyone's like anything is possible.

Um, so I do think back to that time as like a very special period of time that like yeah, I don't think I've experienced that again yet. And I I do worry about that. I'm like, "Oh man, is

it ever going to be like that again?"

>> Yeah. Yeah. That's, you know, it's interesting to because I have such a complex relationship with with creating things. Like a lot of times, you know,

things. Like a lot of times, you know, designers or people will get attached to kind of the identity they might have. I

have such an attachment to the things I create and and it's uh I guess I'm working through that. How do what is your relationship with with like creating? I don't know if I have like

creating? I don't know if I have like this super strong attachment to things that I've created. Um I think what I

love is like continuously improving things. I get

less attached to like a specific solution or something, but I really like like putting something out there and then like immediately getting feedback

about it, whether it's like positive or negative. Um, just the feeling that

negative. Um, just the feeling that like, oh, cool. Like, I know how people are using this now, how they're reacting to it, and I just have like complete clarity on like what to do next. I

remember being like kind of like obviously stressed out before we launched it, but then like after we launched it, there was just like clarity. It's like, cool, we know people

clarity. It's like, cool, we know people have reacted to it. We know what their feedback is. Now, we know what to do

feedback is. Now, we know what to do next. Um, and so I think just like yeah,

next. Um, and so I think just like yeah, for me it's less about um being really tied to the things that I've made or certain solutions. It's like cool like

certain solutions. It's like cool like how do we keep making this thing better?

Like that that's the thing I'm always thinking about.

>> And are there people in the industry and they or or even adjacent who you kind of look to or really inspire you? I always

like to find the people who inspire me and ask who is inspiring them.

>> I don't love to like have idols, you know. Um, sure. But I think currently I

know. Um, sure. But I think currently I am really excited about like a flock of basically younger designers cuz I think they're sort of showing us like what is

possible when you don't have an existing sort of like career and all these things that you carry around with you. And I

feel like there's this like hybrid of uh you know designer design engineer kind of like new designer that's coming up because they just like didn't have the definition of like what a product

designer is and they're just like making stuff with AI and like and so there's a flock of those folks uh that are that are coming up on my Twitter feed that I'm really excited about.

>> I I the same for me as well. Uh I I I say the youths the youths are out here.

>> I love the youth, >> you know, no uh no preconceived notions about how things should be done and it's incredibly inspiring even watching my son connect. He has kind of like a wind

son connect. He has kind of like a wind surf to unity workflow and I'm like try this or try that and he's just doing it in ways I wouldn't have even thought of and it's interesting to compare that to

people who I say hey you know consider playing with the tool over here doing this and sometimes the kind of salty response is oh I'm expected to now know how to do this and to do that and to do

this and it's like well I think the difference now is that the tooling kind of increases our capacity in the day we have more things we can do now because the tooling makes those uh kind of wrote

things easier. What do you say to people

things easier. What do you say to people who you know are watching the youths uh go through these uh number of skills and just kind of putting things together but

feeling like oh no like having to learn engineering is a whole another vertical now for me.

>> I think that that's what's giving young people or like new grads like an advantage, right? Is like they're just

advantage, right? Is like they're just sort of willing to learn these like new things. Like I remember being a junior

things. Like I remember being a junior designer and just being like cool like I suck at visual design. I need to learn visual design and just be like cool.

Like I need to do this otherwise I'm going to like never make it. And I so I think it's like we given that there's new technology we all are sort of almost in this like new grad phase again where

we have to remember like oh yeah we have to learn new things with our careers and yes it is hard and yes we have to find time for it but I think that's sort of the reality of of where we are at right

now >> and how much do you think especially with the design field now there's I'm seeing a lot of debate about folks who spent most of their time maybe on the

researching uh user experience, not necessarily the visual output side. Um,

starting to wonder how much of that should I start indexing on visual output, my, you know, quote unquote craft, things like that. And especially

coming from a research company, I'm curious how do you see that evolving in the the field of of design? I mean, I think it's what we are grasping on to

right now because the models are not good at some of those like really fine v visual details and the model is like pretty good at like broad UX decisions.

I think it's going to get better and better at some of these visual details um and and making stuff that actually like looks good and has like shows a high level of taste. So, I actually like

don't know how long that's going to last. I think there will always be some

last. I think there will always be some amount of like can you prompt and sort of choose and and make and get the model to like do this in the right ways at the right moments.

>> How much do you think design as a as a field is going to index uh less on the research side and more on the visual output side which seems to be a debate happening now?

>> Yeah. Yeah. What do you mean by the research side? Like the sort of UX side.

research side? Like the sort of UX side.

>> Yeah. Just is the role. I think job titles is what I'm thinking about when I think about a UX designer versus like a product designer and how much of the day-to-day is going to be output driven activities.

>> The UX like designer like nonvisisual designer role feels it does sort of feel outdated at this current moment. Um I

think cuz that that role almost feels like I mean that role has always almost like felt like PM to me in some ways. Um

and so like maybe that's like kind of like what it will graduate into. Um, but

I think also given like you know if the models do get better at like you know this some of these like highly high visual fidelity outputs then like maybe this like UX designer person can then not be the person creating that anymore.

They can leverage the models. Um, but

then I think what it what then it depends on is like does this UX designer person actually have the sort of like taste and ability to be like cool these are the moments when visual quality

really matters and I will sort of like push the model on this because I think that having taste on something versus like being able to execute on it is like two different things. They're usually

pretty closely bundled together. Um,

like I do think people who can execute on things with a high visual quality usually can also they they have taste and and like kind of vice versa too. So

that sort of depends but um I do think that the sort of UX designer role is a it's a little bit I think we don't know really know what it is. I I think it's

very interesting that you actually kind of uh juxtaposed like taste versus the ability to execute on something and and I want to hear from you. How would you

define the trait of being able to execute on something? the ability to I think actually create a bunch of like different options, you know, that just

like look good and feel good and like to be able to do that like probably pretty quickly and to be able to do that in a way that like meets the goals of the project and like does it pretty

intentionally. Um, and then I think the

intentionally. Um, and then I think the person with taste is like once you've made these like 12 options, right? Like

you can actually really understand the level of detail, understand like the decisions that matter in visual quality and you get to ch and you could choose

the right one that is worth doing.

>> I I really like the distinction. It is

subtle. It is a bit nuanced, but I think that is a really smart distinction that um deserves more attention maybe.

Otherwise, if you're just someone with great taste and no ability to execute, you're just kind of a critic.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think there Yeah. I think there's I think

there Yeah. I think there's I think there there is some merit in like having great taste and not necessarily having to be the person that executes all the time, but um I think often you'll find that somebody who can execute also

usually has great taste.

>> Jenny said something that reframes how I think about the design role right now.

She said, "Having taste versus being able to execute are two completely different things. They're usually

different things. They're usually bundled together, but they don't have to be. And in a world where AI can

be. And in a world where AI can increasingly execute, the question becomes, and it's kind of uncomfortable, do you actually have good taste or are you just pushing pixels around?" I think

a lot of designers, myself included, are having to sit with that. I think a lot of designers, myself included, are having to sit with that. And she

described the culture at Figma while she was designing Fig Jam as a sort of wild west. [ __ ] the process, her words. And

west. [ __ ] the process, her words. And

she brought that same energy to Enthropic. No grandiose vision decks or

Enthropic. No grandiose vision decks or these 2-year road maps, just prototypes that gain heat or ideas that strike at

random and designers and engineers who are both building the same things. If

you want to figure out where design is headed, not the hype on Twitter, this is who you should be following. She is

quite literally in the room where it's happening.

I'll see you next time.