The New Way Of The Superior Man - David Deida (1st interview in a decade)

What's happening people? Before we get into the episode, I wanted to give you a disclaimer. David didn't show his face

disclaimer. David didn't show his face when we were recording. David's a pretty esoteric guy. Decided that he's going to

esoteric guy. Decided that he's going to retreat from the world. He's living in a house in the middle of nowhere in Florida, I think. And even though it might have been nice to have seen his face, it's completely on brand. So,

we've tried to make it as engaging as possible. I hope you enjoy the episode.

possible. I hope you enjoy the episode.

What is a man of zero?

Well, to me, a man of zero is somebody who has come to the point in their life where their motivation

has evaporated or isn't there. Uh they

feel they still may be very active. They

may be, you know, married, they may have children, they may have businesses, they may be creative, but under it all there's just a feeling like

why am I doing this? and part of me would rather not do anything kind of feeling and I noticed a lot of men feeling that that I was interacting with

over the years and so I wanted to address that.

Is this the next stage after the superior man? Is this a spiritual sequel

superior man? Is this a spiritual sequel to the way of the superior man?

It's a kind of sequel, but it's not necessarily a stage progression. So

somebody might go into the phase, I'll use the word phase of a man of zero and then after a month, a year, a decade, whatever,

they may come back to being the superior man. To me, what a superior man is is a

man. To me, what a superior man is is a man who is motivated by a deep sense of purpose. And that sense of purpose might

purpose. And that sense of purpose might be to discover their purpose, but they're motivated by a sense of purpose often to serve the world or to to give

their gift or to to make things right.

And when that evaporates or when they no longer feel that, that's the beginning of the phase of the man of zero. Now, it

may last a very short time, may last a long time, the man of zero phase. So

they may eventually go back to oh a new purpose.

For instance for myself this book emerged out of nowhere as a kind of oh I I should write this book I need to write this book. So it just came out of

this book. So it just came out of nowhere and then you know the discipline of writing a book of working with publishers and all of that that takes effort. So that came up. You know, I was

effort. So that came up. You know, I was working as kind of a superior man phase for a while and we'll see if I could get through this interview without resting back.

Okay. If you if you degenerate into total apathy, we'll know that you've gone back into man of zero phase.

It's not exactly apathy. I'm glad you said that. It's a kind of it's a

said that. It's a kind of it's a clarity. It's pure presence. It's pure

clarity. It's pure presence. It's pure

awareness. It's being absolutely present with the moment but just not having an urge to uh push and change things like you're

deeply content with the way things are.

But that doesn't stop you from changing things. It just means you're not

things. It just means you're not stressed. You know, most men have a kind

stressed. You know, most men have a kind of kernel of stress in their gut or their heart or their solar plexus that moves them to do something. Well, the

man of zero is what happens when that stress isn't there? What are you moved to do? like how does the universe use

to do? like how does the universe use you? How how does

you? How how does you know that deeper thing that's beyond you move through you? Because in the superior man phase, one is motivated

mostly by their personal sense of purpose rather than being kind of used by something or much larger if shape if

size even has meaning. I think it doesn't exactly paint a very flattering picture of where most people's striving comes from. You know

comes from. You know what doesn't paint a flattering picture?

The fact that when you get to this restful um no longer needing to prove yourself, you notice how much of your ambition and your pushing seems to fall away. What

that would suggest is that without some of the drives, needs for validation and recognition, uh, past patterns that are puppeting you,

maybe you wouldn't be pushing quite so much.

Definitely. But I don't think that's a negative thing. That's just a

negative thing. That's just a an evolution, a way of growth. I mean,

some of the some of my favorite music say was probably created by artists who are doing it so they could get laid, you know, like there some sometimes people do something for money, but it's really

a work of art. It's really a beautiful thing that they're creating. Some people

have a sense of lack of selfworth, let's say, that they inherited from their childhood. And yet that lack of

childhood. And yet that lack of selfworth motivates them to create real art, really beauty on earth, real beauty on earth. So, it's not necessarily a

on earth. So, it's not necessarily a negative thing that people are motivated. It's just at some point I

motivated. It's just at some point I wanted to account for what happens when those motivations are no longer sufficient to move you.

Oh, I agree. The the world is shaped by people trying to prove themselves to themselves and others. And yes, much of that motivation is running away from something that you fear, not just towards something that you want. It's

trying to disprove your doubters or critics or alchemize that chip on your shoulder. uh and it the world will

shoulder. uh and it the world will become fundamentally a better place. But

I think when you start to look at it from the perspective of the individual, the one person, it starts to look a little bit different and it does look like a a kind of

evolution uh internally. I guess I guess what are the indicators that you've reached this stage? Let's say that you were to explain to the avatar of the person

that's going through it. How would they know? What what are the indicators that

know? What what are the indicators that you're becoming a man of zero or become one?

Well, the the first part of the book, The Man of Zero, is several chapters dedicated to this. Um,

basically, you're just no longer motivated like you used to be. You might look at your friends, say, and they seem motivated.

They seem okay. They seem like they have a reason to get up in the morning and go forward. Why don't you? Um

forward. Why don't you? Um

there's a kind of well, you could either call it peace or you could call it lack of stress in your

heart or your depth. Um, and many people then, many men then assume that's an issue, that's a problem because they've been motivated, like you

say, for many reasons.

And suddenly they're just not there. It doesn't move. It's not

there. It doesn't move. It's not

sufficient to move them anymore. It

feels false. It feels like a false life.

It feels like they're not living true to their deepest self and temporarily their deepest self wants to do nothing

which to me is a portal. Like if men learned how to do nothing impeccably.

So not get on their phone or look at pornography or watch movies or whatever people might do when they don't want to

do anything. If instead men just took a

do anything. If instead men just took a moment and really were present, totally aware, like crystal clear, not pulling

away, not pushing anything, something emerges from that. So when you're able to just sit or you could do it walking or it doesn't matter at all, but if you

can just be, that being then begins to unfold through your life, through your body and mind. Um, so and your body and mind are conditioned like your body and

mind are trained a certain way. So when

that being flows through your body and mind, it'll look different than when that being flows through my body and mind.

Um, I'm not sure if that answer your question.

It certainly does. It's a kind of stillness indicator would be you're comfortable with peace, but it it seems to me that it's almost like a it feels

like a deceleration in striving is one of the sort of core components here. The

need to do the need to be busy.

That's a core component. the sense of seeking for something whether it's self- validation or peace on earth whatever

you're seeking just somehow dissolves and you're left you're left with just being so again most men they get to that place of just being and they think it's

negative like uh you know I need to take testosterone or you know I need to drink more caffeine or whatever they they feel like they need to do something

to get their mojo back where in fact that is their mojo. Their mojo is leading them to relax their body and mind to become transparent to their

being, their deepest being. And it t it could take time, it might not take time.

It's not predictable. But once you're living from that place of being, there's a through and through sense of authenticity. There's not a sense like

authenticity. There's not a sense like something's lacking that you're trying to fill uh or stress that you're trying to release. It's just a fullness of

to release. It's just a fullness of being that's living your life. It's the

same you you experience it. It's the

same force, let's say, as growing growing trees and moving your blood and you know, your thoughts are just appearing out of nowhere. Nobody knows

what they're about to think. Nobody's

actually planning on it. just their

thoughts come out of nowhere. Their body

comes out of nowhere. Their experience

of everything, what they hear, what they see is just appearing. And when they could stay there because they have no motive to move, then that appearance, you know, you begin to see some

principles of those appearances, but you're free. Things are appearing. You

you're free. Things are appearing. You

may act on them, but the essential feeling is one of freedom.

Yeah. I I think what's really interesting here is it feels like the moment when your success stops feeling meaningful and your striving is no longer rewarding you in the same way.

And what you're saying is that some men kind of get to there. They get to this escape velocity where they are in this phase of zero, this man of zero moment.

And what they do is because for almost all of their life where they have taken meaning from has been progress, difficulty, hard charging, driving forward, doing things, making [ __ ]

happen, fulfilling their ambition. And

when it's gone, they don't think, "Oh, wow. I've completed that video game.

wow. I've completed that video game.

They think I need to change my conditions with caffeine or imagined or real enemies or higher testosterone level or a divorce or whatever it might

be in an attempt to reignite this the heart of this dead star that is supposed to kind of be let to cool for a little while.

Yes, exactly. take

it's healthy and appropriate for the motivations of your body and mind that moved you in the past to come to stillness and then to discover

the truth of what's left.

That's so good. So question on this. Why

does success eventually feel empty?

Well, it only felt full because you had these thoughts and you know feelings of lack and goals that you described. Um

there's never anyone who's succeeded any at anything knows that it's you know the first thing you discover when you

succeeded anything is uh uh okay you know I've made zillion dollars I've got the beautiful woman or whatever their thing is and there they are they're the

same one they're the same being that they were before the question was that it well it wasn't I mean you had to do it. You had There's

no reason to not like if you're motivated to make a lot of money or you're motivated to find a partner or to have sex with a lot of people or whatever one's motivation is,

you can explore that. I mean, that's what human birth is for to to explore all the possibilities of being human.

But there comes a point if you if you mature and it could be at any age. A lot

of people due to psychedelics and all kinds of things are coming to this point early in their life, but there comes a point where they're just it's just the it feels empty. The tone

is emptiness, meaninglessness. They're

just they're there in their mansion, you know, whatever their situation is.

And it's like nothing really has changed essentially. Things have changed

essentially. Things have changed externally, bigger house, whatever, but essentially they're the same one.

And that's disappointing to people. They

think there should be some deal differently. Does this mean therefore

differently. Does this mean therefore that becoming a man of zero is more common among people, guys who have achieved that in order to realize that

success is empty, you need to have achieved some success. If you're lower down the sort of ladder, still striving with more unfulfilled desires and goals

and accomplishments that as yet you haven't reached, you're more likely to keep playing that game as opposed to arriving at this position of stillness.

I think a large percentage of these men have achieved a modicum of success and have come to that point of meaninglessness. However, I think more

meaninglessness. However, I think more and more younger men before they've flexed their muscles in the world, before they've achieved success, often due to a

meditative experience or I mean people can have these deep experiences now cheaply. So they could have a unearned

cheaply. So they could have a unearned glimpse of infinity and they could come to a place of why do anything very early in life

before success and their practice would be the same as the successful person's practices outlined in in the man of zero book.

Yeah. It's uh referred to as spiritual bypass by some of my friends that sort of do a lot of psychedelics. Uh people

go away to the Amazon rainforest. They

sit with the shaman. They have this transcendent experience. They touch the

transcendent experience. They touch the divine. They feel the infinite. And then

divine. They feel the infinite. And then

they come back and they're the same prick that they were 2 weeks ago.

There's no integration. Nothing changes.

They've just had like visited this this peak moment kind of like a tourist going on holiday to come back and go back to their normal day-to-day life.

Yes. And the key insight in that and psychedelics alto together is that you're you said like you're the same I don't remember what you said you're the

same prick you were beforehand something like that um the thing to recognize is you are the same one whatever that is you have to call it a prick but you

actually are the same one so no experience changes yourself your being as like let's just call, you know, it doesn't matter what we could call our

deepest being being or aware of being.

It's what's always there. It's what

there were when we were five or 10 years old or it's what's there now and this moment and this moment and this moment things keep changing our experience

changes but that sense of eye or being is continuous. So if you could really

is continuous. So if you could really recognize that, if you could use say psychedelics and go, I'm the same being before I took psychedelics during the

trip and afterwards, then the practice is to rest as that being. So the

psychedelics themselves may afford healing of different kinds of the body and mind. It may give you visions of kind of parallel worlds to the one

our waking state is used to. Those can

be interesting. that could be useful.

But the one who's having those visions is the same one who, you know, eats lunch and takes a [ __ ] This episode is brought to you by Gym Shark. If you're going to spend an hour

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What's the psychological experience of hitting zero does? I imagine this gets confused for depression a lot.

Definitely. Um,

so there are some cases of true clinical depression. For instance, biochemical

depression. For instance, biochemical imbalances that could be addressed through pharmacological means. Um, or

you can go into a kind of depression because you lose someone you love or fail at something that you've spent

years trying to succeed.

Um, sometimes those are what I would call true depression. But

what most people experience in my what I'm trying to describe is that they come to a point where their actual life is is

meaningless. That there's no more

meaningless. That there's no more meaning anymore. And so they feel

meaning anymore. And so they feel what do I do now? And then what they add is a sense of collapse.

So being being just being your deepest self without collapse is the man of zero

being being and then collapsing literally collapsing contracting in your solar plexus hunching over kind of getting in that dark m you know what am

I doing mulling things over thought that's depression so if you subtract the doing if you go to true zero. So you're

not even doing contraction, you're not doing slouching, you're not doing the mulling of the thoughts, then what's left is being without collapse. And

that's the man of zero.

How do people distinguish that in the moment? Because I think the fear that's

moment? Because I think the fear that's going to come up, it sounds great. We

can rationally identify, well, the the main difference is the collapse, the the stillness, uh the deceleration, becoming comfortable with it. But in the moment, you're not going to be thinking rationally at all. You're going to

think, "Where did all of my drive and ambition go?" And you're going to look

ambition go?" And you're going to look around at all of your friends who you used to work with or compete with or have a rivalry or a friendship with and go, "They're still congruent. They're

still aligned. Their thoughts, words, actions, beliefs, direction in life is all moving in the same direction. And I

I I don't even know. I don't even know what I'm supposed to do. I don't want to get up. I I'm not driven by the same

get up. I I'm not driven by the same things anymore. This feels like

things anymore. This feels like depression. This must be what depression

depression. This must be what depression is. So, how would you advise someone in

is. So, how would you advise someone in the moment to to have faith that this is an evolution, not a devolution, progress, not regression?

One way, there are several ways, but one way would be to so let's take this moment. Wow.

moment. Wow.

If you're thinking thoughts in this moment, let's say those thoughts were my friends are succeeding or my friends, you know, everything that you just said,

those are thoughts that are going by. If

you can see those thoughts or witness those thoughts, you see them come and go. Like there's a beginning of a

go. Like there's a beginning of a thought, there's a thought, it's over, now's another thought. So there's these thoughts that are moving and it's not

that difficult to see that you're still there. The thoughts are changing, you

there. The thoughts are changing, you are not. You you are experiencing those

are not. You you are experiencing those thoughts. The experience changes. The

thoughts. The experience changes. The

thoughts change, but you are not. And so

you it's it's hard to put words on, but you sink into that being or you rest as that being or you relax as that being.

And then you those thoughts may or may not continue. Um but if you buy into

not continue. Um but if you buy into those thoughts that's what contracts you. So if you start getting lost in the

you. So if you start getting lost in the thoughts or lost in anything, lost in a sexual relationship, lost in your work.

But when you get lost in those thoughts, you feel suffering because you're not yourself, true self. You're

lost in the stream of thoughts. So the

checking is are you free even if thoughts are moving are you free as they move are you the awareness or the space of awareness

however you want to say it in which those thoughts are moving and if you can stay there just rest relax there it's effortless it's just what you always are so if you

feel that effort coming up you know you're missing the mark it's interesting that um so much of What

I think a lot of men do is hide away from the fleeting thoughts, the scary fleeting thoughts and the

patterns that only come up in moments of stillness and quiet by staying busy. So

this must be it's almost like a a perfect storm.

The drive that kept you busy is no longer there. And as the busyiness falls

longer there. And as the busyiness falls away because you're less driven, the quiet, fleeting thoughts come up, which you've been hiding away from for a long time, which is even scarier. And that

then gives you more to contend with, which incentivizes you even more to push away the phase of zero and go back into the drive and the pursuit.

It's kind of worse than that.

Brilliant.

Um because we've suppressed a lot. So, so let's say you told a lie to somebody. This is just one example. Let's say you told a lie to a

example. Let's say you told a lie to a business partner or to your wife or who whoever or maybe just to yourself, but you've told a lie and then for some

gain, personal gain, you know. So, you

told a lie and now that moment has passed, but you know you've told the lie that creates a kind of contraction or tension in your body and mind. And when

you come to this place of zero, all of those tensions from your entire life, all the ways you've lied to yourself and others come

back to the surface.

So you'll be sitting there and a memory of this person you lied to will come up. It could even be deeper than

come up. It could even be deeper than that. So we have a genetic past and an

that. So we have a genetic past and an epigenetic past and an ancestrial past.

And so just even at the mamalian level, we have ma, you know, mammals. We're

mammals. So and mammals fight and [ __ ] and run. And so you'll be sitting there

and run. And so you'll be sitting there and the melon urges to kill and [ __ ] and they'll arise and

the moments you've lied to people and hurt them, those moments will arise and they're arising to your awareness to be released. It's a kind of purification.

released. It's a kind of purification.

Like you said, they've been stuffing them down. So it is it's a it's quite

them down. So it is it's a it's quite the ride, you know. It's it's not like a vanilla, you know. So, you have to be that's why

you know. So, you have to be that's why I I wrote the book because I want men to understand that and be able to tolerate that unfolding.

Does real world effectiveness become less for a while?

I I would say the interest becomes less.

But if you've become effective, that stays there. Your skills are diminished.

stays there. Your skills are diminished.

Mhm.

So So your your skills what's what's the judgment by which we're saying effective is or is not here. If it's playing a game that you've now liberated yourself from, then yeah, you're less effective at playing the game, but you've also

transcended it.

Yeah. I'm not even sure you're less effective at playing the game. You're

just less moved to. But if the game is kind of put on you, you might even be more skilled because you're less wound up in your own issues.

Yeah, that's fun. That is fun. So, I I mean, what's so cool about this? I've

been doing this live show. Um I went to Australia, New Zealand, and Bali. I just

got back from there. And on stage, I was trying to thread a needle that was uh potentially really unpopular and also really hard to do. and it was basically

warning people of the hollowess of arriving. And it really feels like

arriving. And it really feels like there's something there in the ether that you're you've definitely touched with this and I think I was trying to get to as well. One of the challenges I

think when it comes to people learning this stuff is if you haven't yet got there, if you haven't yet got to the point where

you've felt enough success and achievement to peer over the top of it and see that it might not be all that you thought or you hoped that it was going to be. If someone who appears to

have already made it to the top of the mountain is telling you that the view from the top is not that good, what it feels like to you is someone sucking the oxygen out of your fuel tank that people

respond to this with an awful lot of of distaste. Oh, like what a luxurious

distaste. Oh, like what a luxurious position to be in or some other version of, well, if if I'd got there, that would fix my internal need, my desire for validation. that would be solved by

for validation. that would be solved by the 10,000 foot home or the supermodel girlfriend or the Ferrari or the thousand monthly paying subscribers on

my app or whatever it might be. And um I think it's it's a rare person who is able to face this and go, "Huh,

maybe the things that I'm pursuing at some point in future will be hollow as opposed to just I they just need to push harder. They just need to man up and go

harder. They just need to man up and go through it.

If they feel they need to man up and go through it, they should. I mean, that's a true phase. So, if somebody really feels that, I would recommend that they man up and go through it.

Um, to others, I would say it's not so much like when you reach the top, like you arrive and then you see it's empty.

Right now, in this moment, whoever is listening, I mean, this very moment, feel what's happening. Notice what's

happening. there's something happening.

You're you're hearing my voice or your voice. Uh there's a visual perception

voice. Uh there's a visual perception they're having, but none of that is changing them. They're the same one

changing them. They're the same one listening that they were yesterday or 10 years ago or 10 years from now. And so

in this very moment, they can relax or notice that one. And instantly in that noticing all the stuff they're doing and

thinking becomes empty. Not not in a negative way. It's just

negative way. It's just stuff that's happening. It's like

watching a river, watching the clouds.

Um it's still happening, but it's flowing through you. There's

so so there's no need to feel like when I achieve or when I'm on have arrived.

Mhm.

Right now you're in that condition, but you may also have motivation. So right

now everyone is in the condition of being aware. To some people that is

being aware. To some people that is sufficient. To other people they need to

sufficient. To other people they need to add stress and seeking.

Mhm. Mhm. In that way, do you think self-improvement and the pursuit of self-improvement can sort of delay real freedom, making us believe that we're

the unfinished article until? Even if

that's not true, the belief in it means that we put off asking the deeper questions or sitting with the stillness.

Um, I don't think if somebody wants to self-improve, they should. As you said earlier, I mean, that's what makes the world go around. So people people who

are moved to self-improve or improve the world which tend to go hand in hand um they should there's no reason not to

I don't see it as a block to this I think sooner or later most men come to a point of whether however active they are

however improved they are or not of feeling its emptiness like in again in this moment Most men would be able to feel that spacious

emptiness, that awareness. It's a aware.

It's got a there's an isness. It's hard

to put words on this obviously, but a lot of men have experienced it.

What changes around sex?

Well, a third of the book is about sex um of the the book the man of zero because a lot can change because a lot of our sex is based on

uh our past, our mamalian past. As I

said, um, our psychological past, the way our parents treated us, our first sexual relationships, um, as we rest at zero more and more,

more stably, more frequently, those no longer motivate you. So what men often feel as they approach this phase with

the man of zero is less actual desire for sex but more sexual fantasies coming out of those depths that I described earlier like that we've

stuffed down. So they might be sitting

stuffed down. So they might be sitting there and they may have all kinds of weird sexual fantasies and thoughts, but when it comes to actually having sex and having a relationship,

all they know is what they see in their friends or what they did in the past, which is based on these conditionings from their past, their their malian conditioning, their personal past, their

childhood traumas, and those just are no longer an interesting way to have sex.

So, a lot of men go, you know, I'm I'm losing my sexual desire. I need to get it back. Whereas, as I described in the

it back. Whereas, as I described in the book there's what turned you on now is not as much uh you know, what turned you on before

lingerie and porn or whatever.

But a a partner, I'll say woman, it could be any sex, but a partner's actual love, her devotion, her surrender. So

when you feel someone's devotion to love or surrender, opening their body to love, that brings a part of you to the

four that could become sex from zero.

Like you're rested at zero. You're

you're not pushing, but from that place comes a polarity or sexual attraction.

There's a lot in the book about that. We

can unpack it more now if you want.

Absolutely. Yeah. I think uh the role of sexual polarity obviously massive part of your first book and then to see it you might think that the amount of stillness

would kill the polarity but you're suggesting that that's not the case.

Stillness is one side of the polarity.

The other side is fullness or energy.

And that's you know I use the word masculine and feminine. It's problematic

for some people, but the way I'm using that word is that the masculine is that unchanging stillness that we can all experience. And the feminine is

experience. And the feminine is everything that moves is life force, is energy, um is the fullness to the emptiness. And so as you rest in

emptiness. And so as you rest in emptiness through polarity, you tend to attract fullness. So if in a

attract fullness. So if in a heterosexual relationship you will tend to attract to you women who are, you know, very active. They like to talk.

They they're they like to socialize just just as you're feeling I don't want to talk. I don't want to socialize. And so

talk. I don't want to socialize. And so

it's important to learn to embrace that polarity, but it's still a polarity. And

ultimately the polarity is being the fullness of your death of your awareness and attracting to you a woman who's in

her fullness of devotion. That is her heart is open and full of love that she also wants to share but she's not driven by a

sense of lack. So she loves you but doesn't need you and vice versa. And

that that's a very strong polarity. your

depth of stillness is in polarity with her radiance, her power. Um, I see it even coming out as more and more women, I'm sure you know this, you know, there

are more girls who graduate high school than boys. There are more women in law

than boys. There are more women in law school and medical school than men. And

I think it's going to keep going in that direction. I think that over time

direction. I think that over time women will be much and already are will be more there'll be more women leaders than men.

They'll be more successful women than men. The pendulum will swing and then

men. The pendulum will swing and then men will need to learn how to rest as this man of zero in depth because then they still have polarity. It's very

valuable when a woman who's very strong and powerful kind of comes home from work if we want to use that metaphor like she comes home from a day of being in the world and there you are

completely present rooted in the deepest sense of being absolutely attentive to her without being clinging because your awareness is free. She feels that is the

greatest gift on earth. So she moves from being attracted to a man who whatever makes a lot of money and is socially charismatic to a man whose

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interesting to think about the masculine essence of I guess holding frame would be one way to put it, but

just being you, just being. And that

even if you're not doing as much doing as the woman in your life, the fact that you're able to be so still and so comfortable with it commands a kind of

masculine power and respect that kind of means that no matter what happens in the outside world, the protector provider, the socioeconomic

balance or imbalance, uh it's always still you in a position of mass skill in frame holding.

Yes. Because awareness is where everything happens. You wouldn't be

everything happens. You wouldn't be aware of something unless it happened in awareness. And you're that awareness. So

awareness. And you're that awareness. So

you are the ultimate frame, if you will.

And this could even apply sexually. So

let's say you're laying in bed with a lover. Um, in the past, you might

lover. Um, in the past, you might initiate sex and, you know, you might be kissing and touching and foreplay and building up tension. maybe spanking. I

you know, lovingly being together in all kinds of playful ways. But for a man of zero, he might be laying there feeling like I I don't want to do anything. I

don't want to move. I love her. I love

being here with her. I don't want to do anything, though. And I would say to

anything, though. And I would say to that man, okay, don't do anything. You

just lay there in bed, hold her in your arms, but completely feel her. Feel her

body. Notice the tensions moving through her body. Feel her emotions. Feel the

her body. Feel her emotions. Feel the

ongoing yearning in her heart. just and

in the book I give details but you you learn how to feel into her effortlessly just in a completely relaxed way and then she feels your presence. She feels

you feeling her. She feels you knowing her and that is incredibly valuable even sexually. So now you're just laying

sexually. So now you're just laying there holding her with her but she feels you deeply knowing her probably deeper than if you were humping her you know.

So, she's feeling this deep sense of you being inside of her. You're still

penetrating her, but you're penetrating her with your love, with your feeling awareness. Um, and so sexually, the less

awareness. Um, and so sexually, the less you do, the more she feels [ __ ] by you.

You said before about how sort of the the previous things that men were would be turned on by insects.

Maybe you could categorize them as a bit more obvious, a little bit more shallow. I

can't think of a better word, a little bit more shallow when you're then talking about sex at zero is much more intimate.

Why do you think talking about intimacy when it comes to sex is hard for men?

Talking about sleeping with women is pretty easy. Almost sort of bragging

pretty easy. Almost sort of bragging about what you got up to last night if you're in your 20s. But talking about true physical intimacy as a man a lot of

the time I think makes men uncomfortable. Women have a not

uncomfortable. Women have a not horrendous archetype for this. You know

the transcendent deeply desired. It's

making love not having sex. But for men true physical intimacy and making love is I don't know. I I don't hear many men talking about it. And when they do I think that there's a kind of

uncomfortableness around it.

Well, that's a, as you know, a lot of my work in the past has been on sexuality and spirituality. Um, so we can spend,

and spirituality. Um, so we can spend, you know, months unpacking this. But

hey, it's your first podcast. It's your

first podcast in 10 years. I don't know whether you knew, David, but this actually does last for months. So, I

hope that you've locked in.

It's fantastic. Because of the way evolution works, I'm sure you know this.

Uh for male bodies, all they need to do is ejaculate in order to create the next generation. Whereas women need to raise,

generation. Whereas women need to raise, you know, be pregnant, eat enough while they're pregnant, survive pregnancy, raise the child nursing. There's a big

difference, if you will, in potential cost evolutionarily speaking. Um, so men are built to be aroused sexually. So

sexual arousal, you know, men are almost always able to be sexually, you know, they're fantasizing about sex a lot. Sexual

arousal is easy. Um, so it's easy for them to talk about that part, sex. It's

easy for them to to say what they like sexually. Intimacy often involves

sexually. Intimacy often involves emotional sensitivity.

Um, feeling the other person obviously and most men during sex because of their evolutionary past get so wrapped up in the physical sensations.

Have an erection. I'm going to ejaculate. Look at her breast. Look at

ejaculate. Look at her breast. Look at

her ass. Like they're they're in this evolutionary churn that most men know.

We all know that. Um, so it makes it easy for them to talk about sexuality, but because they're deeply identified with nothingness.

So, you know, at the depth of men of the masculine is this emptiness, this nothingness, and the emotions are anything but empty. They're they're what

fill the emptiness. Most men,

because they don't really realize how much they love the nothingness, they don't like filling it with emotion. So

often a woman will ask a man like, "What are you feeling?" And he'll go, "Well, nothing." And he's not lying or or you

nothing." And he's not lying or or you know, "What do you feel about this?" And

he might say, "I don't have any feelings about it." Often they're not lying.

about it." Often they're not lying.

They're really feeling this kind of sense of emptiness or not in a negative way, just it's a nothing. It's a aware nothingness. And they're not feeling an

nothingness. And they're not feeling an emotion. And so the the woman will feel

emotion. And so the the woman will feel like he's not sharing with me and the man will feel like why is she doing you know why is she creating a problem when there is none.

Um so there's a big difference between the way in typically the masculine feminine communicate and and why that difference is.

What is your advice for a guy who wants to move from just having sex to proper intimacy?

When one is in the man of zero phase, one of the obvious things is that that beingness or awareness being aware is in

all beings. Like you could look into a

all beings. Like you could look into a dog's eye and see their awareness. You

could look into uh you know, you're feeling that awareness in all beings including your lover. So feeling

like loving the love in your lover or being aware of the awareness in your lover. So she's aware of you, you're

lover. So she's aware of you, you're aware of her, you're aware of her being aware of you. That mutual awareness is love or that mutual we are the same being. It's not a

thought like that. It's just a feeling.

Again, you could feel it with an animal.

You could feel it with a plant feel. But

that being that I am the same as you at depth. We're different at our surface.

depth. We're different at our surface.

Our minds are different. Our bodies are different. But at depth, when you look

different. But at depth, when you look in say look into the eyes of of a dog, even you can feel love. You could feel them connecting with you. There's a

being there. And that recognition of shared being, which we could call love, might manifest as, you know, wanting to

be physically intimate in the case of polarity, unless you know, you don't necessarily have polarity with a dog.

But if you're with a human or a plant, although some people do, you know. So, but I if you have that

know. So, but I if you have that polarity with a human and you're in your nothingness, that means you will attract somebody in their fullness.

And that connection is love even though you're playing the opposite poles. So,

one feels that love and is still and silent and is not in the mood to communicate emotions. They're not in any

communicate emotions. They're not in any mood. There is no mood. and the others

mood. There is no mood. and the others flowing with feeling, bursting with emotions and highly responsive to life.

Um, and those tend to make, you know, a good pair in terms of polarity. So you

you recognize the unity of heart, I am you at that, but then you recognize the reciprocity in body and mind. She's radiant. I'm

still, you know, she loves to dance. I

love to watch her dance.

Let's say that there's someone Let's say that there's a man who hasn't yet hit the man of zero thing that sex

at zero also not there. Are there some are there some practices that you think help to push someone who isn't already

in stillness, a man that isn't already in stillness toward sex being a vehicle for um experiencing deeper intimacy and then

also perhaps moving through some of the patterns that he he has to work through in order to get to that man of zero point.

Yes. Um, again, my previous 10 books were focused on men.

Congratulation on 11, by the way.

Thank you.

You know, men shouldn't push their stage or phase like you, you should live it fully. The the best way

to grow out of it is to grow through it.

I agree. like and so if you really are motivated to just have physical sex, you know, wham, bam, thank you, man. Just

quick, you know, then if that's where you're at, do it until it becomes obsolete for you. Um, when a man begins to become ready, there are all kinds of

practices he could do. One, I mean, I'll say some of them, but again, there's a lot of them. Um,

one thing is for him to learn to take his attention off himself, off his own body and onto her his partner's body, even in sex and not in sex. So, let's

talk about sex. So to feel your partner's body more than you feel your own. To feel the tensions and

own. To feel the tensions and relaxations in your partner's body, to feel the breath moving in and out of your partner's body, to feel the emotions moving through your partner

rather than your attention locked into your own sexual sensations. So, one

would just be to learn to liberate their attention to at least feel her more than yourself. Um, another thing to do is to

yourself. Um, another thing to do is to create a kind of resonance. So, often

breathing with your partner sexually.

So, when she inhales, you inhale and she exhales, you exhale. And then, of course, you might need to take catch up breaths because you don't have the same metabolism as your partner. But creating

a kind of resonance of breath helps deepening sex beyond the merely physical.

Going deeper in the body. So,

you know, some men only play on the surface of a woman's body. They kiss her lips.

David, I'm going as deep as I can. I'm

I'm really trying. I've been trying for my entire sexual life to go as deep as I can.

Congratulations.

Sorry. Sorry. I had I had to go on.

Was that Do you want me to comment on that?

No, no, no, no. That was just I'm sorry.

I just the the thought arrive arose in my mind and I couldn't not make a deep joke. So, uh you you were saying Yeah.

joke. So, uh you you were saying Yeah.

Well, well, that's actually true. I

mean, a lot of men just at the physical level have an impulse to go deep. They

want to press, you know, in terms of actual sex, they want to press their sexual organ deep inside a a woman. The

feeling of going deep is the essential masculine urge. Going deep into her,

masculine urge. Going deep into her, going deep into self, going deep into being. So that sense of wanting to go

being. So that sense of wanting to go deep is a kind of native expression of the masculine.

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So things change and drop away. Uh

ambitions, drives that we used to have may they're just not there in the same way anymore. They feel hollow. You're

way anymore. They feel hollow. You're

not driven to do the same things. You

may be more skillful because you're not pushing in the same sort of a way, but the drive to do the thing that you're skillful at may be diminished or

entirely absent. Uh there's not a

entirely absent. Uh there's not a collapse because the collapse would be depression, but there is a kind of emptiness and sitting with that in

stillness is important. Also, the way that you show up and the way that you feel around sex may go from shallow to deep. It may feel significantly more

deep. It may feel significantly more intimate, less physical, more bound together.

How does this get integrated? What what

what what do you do next over? It takes quite a while for the

over? It takes quite a while for the stability of your being to infiltrate through the patterns of your body mind.

So we have all kinds of patterns of our body mind. we have traumas or we might

body mind. we have traumas or we might feel aggressive because of the way whatever our father treated us. We might

feel aggressive because we're mammals and we've inherited a certain degree of aggression. Well, as we rest as being

aggression. Well, as we rest as being more and more, as we become stable, as recognizing ourselves as that simple awareness of presence,

those patterns become integrated naturally, if you will, because they're not tension isn't being added to them.

You're not rewinding them tighter and tighter. You're letting them uncoil in

tighter. You're letting them uncoil in this space of your awareness. Now some

people might have such a tight knot in their body or mind that they need a form of therapy. So they may need a you know

therapy. So they may need a you know whatever form of somatic therapy to unnot their body or they may need a form

of cognitive therapy to help them unnot their mind or release a trauma. They

might want to do trauma therapy. But

what the all of that is just for to help loosen that relaxation in the openness of their presence. So over time it slowly becomes integrated and it's slow.

Another thing that people don't really understand is you know you could have this kind of recognition of being and yet your body and mind continue with the patterns they

have before and your body is the last to change. Your mind may change first, but

change. Your mind may change first, but you find your body doing things your mind doesn't want to anymore. So you you have to have patience and compassion for

yourself and others as these patterns in your body mind continue to unfold. You

might find yourself lying even though you don't want to lie. You might find yourself hurting someone even though you don't want to hurt them. Um, so you compassionately allow these past

contractions that you've stored in your body and mind to open in the spaciousness of your present being. And

that takes years. I mean, there are all kinds of stories, as you know, of people of supposed spiritual depth who act in, you know, not integrous ways.

Pretty much every leader of some spiritual movement or yoga cult for the last like three decades is basically or like 50 decades perhaps has

done that pretty much because it's universal. I

mean it just doesn't change people who it's a false uh hope I guess for it to change. So there are some highly

change. So there are some highly integrated people who are not that deep.

Mhm.

Some are deep, some are not that deep.

But there are also very deep people who are not very integrated. They may have they may be alcoholics. They may be uh you know cheating. You know they may

have sex with all of their students or um and those that doesn't mean they're not they don't recognize the nature of their being. It just means that their pattern

being. It just means that their pattern has yet to unfold. And you need to be careful. And you could put structure so

careful. And you could put structure so that pattern doesn't hurt people or you could make amends as those patterns inevitably hurt people. But that's the usual. That's not the exception. As you

usual. That's not the exception. As you

say, people have a kind of recognition that they could share with others. And

yet this is like being an artist. How

many artists can essentially create let's take a musician that could they could make divine music and yet they themselves in their personal life are pretty messed up. I wonder I

this is why I said about real world effectiveness right that so much of the best analyses the best philos there's this great line if you are if

you marry well you will become happy but if you marry wrong you will become a philosopher and I I I think what that's sort of speaking to is when you're pushing up against the

grain of life when it feels like you're swimming into the stream when stuff's just not quite cohesing in the right way or you you you you still have these

patterns to work against these resentments from your past, this bitterness, this sort of unalchemized, untranscended and included problem.

you because things aren't going easily.

Because things aren't going well, you tend to look at your your world and yourself with so much more dexterity and resolution and obsession. That's where

the art seems to come from. You know how many songs have been made that are wonderful and unbelievably deep about everything's going well and my wife's

happy and healthy and I've got these new kids and the field outside is really bright today and the weather's going.

It's like no. So much of what births great creative insight and that desire to make things at a level that would be unreasonable otherwise is the fact that

you're brushing up against the grain of life. And that's I think what I was

life. And that's I think what I was trying to get at that as this stuff drops away maybe your your if your ability to be effective

includes your drive to do the thing your output may change the outputs that you get may may uh diminish it's first of all I agree with you that

suffering is the trigger for a lot of depth and a lot of art which to me are the same thing. Good art comes from depth. So I agree with you and that's

depth. So I agree with you and that's why I don't think people should rush through these phases and also why I don't think people should assume someone has depth it means they're an

integrated character.

I would say that a lack of integration often creates art more than an integrated human. Can you highlight the

integrated human. Can you highlight the difference between somebody who is uh how do we identify somebody that is integrated and isn't? The way I'm using

that word is that they're socially skilled. They act with deep morality.

skilled. They act with deep morality.

Uh people who are good people, a mench, you know, someone who you could trust. And a

lot of these teachers you wouldn't trust or a lot of these musicians or artists or whatever form they take. You might

trust their art but you wouldn't trust them whatever with your wife or with your bank account or with you know you you have to use your discrimination. Um

and luckily that's doesn't stop as I said even when you're rested at zero those patterns continue and they continue to cause trouble. And so the

source of art that you're referring to doesn't cease.

Yeah. Yeah.

The access to depth becomes more stable.

What role does discipline play after purpose ends?

Well, the body and mind continue to require discipline. You know, if you

require discipline. You know, if you want to become stronger, you lift weights regularly. If you want to think about

regularly. If you want to think about something more clearly, you may read books. So you you may say that x hours a

books. So you you may say that x hours a day I'm going to want to lift weights or read books or so so there's still a sense for your body and mind to train

or your you know to to learn to golf takes discipline, repetition. Um so your body and mind still require discipline

but you the discipline is no longer to be what you are. You recognize you are what you are. So it's effortless. So the

the being depth is effortless. There's

you don't if you're doing something you're missing it. So in this moment if you're trying to be being then you're

trying you're not being. So you

effortlessness is the key to knowing that in this moment you're just being.

But that doesn't mean that within that effortless being you might still decide you know I want to paint something or my

kid needs to be picked up from school or um you know I want to build a business and all of those things require you know repetitive action or discipline.

It's a very different sort of drive to get there though, right?

different from what? What's different

from Well, in order to do this, it seems like there's kind of bottom-up motivation which is less conscious and it's driven by need

for recognition. It's driven by past

for recognition. It's driven by past patterns. This is much more dictated

patterns. This is much more dictated like I don't need to paint, but I'm going to I I want to paint. I don't need to go to the gym. and need to go to the gym is because if my body is better then

I will look good to the person that I love and she will find me attract and d as opposed to just I'm doing this because I want to.

Yes. No, I agree with that. Yes.

You've been thinking about how long have you been writing about men and women?

40ome years.

Okay. We are, you mentioned it earlier on, at least at what feels like a bit of a transitionary period, especially for men, for women too, but especially for men. I think women had a big

men. I think women had a big transitionary period about 50, 60 years ago.

What do you see or what are you hopeful for and worried about with the current culture around men?

I I wouldn't say I'm worried about anything, but I would say that as women take over the functions that men once

had, men will have to find a the deeper reason for being. And that deeper reason is what we've been talking about this whole time to um frame everything, to

hold everything, to be presence, to be depth. So whatever somebody's doing,

depth. So whatever somebody's doing, your presence deepens them. So they're

doing becomes steeper and that involves a different form of uh self-worth if you will like you're not measuring yourself on you know how much money you have or

how much weight you can lift. You're

kind of measuring yourself on if if you want to use that word on your stability be what you are and rather than getting lost in thoughts or in activities.

What's the core of masculine essence in your opinion?

Well, the way I use that term is identifying more with the emptiness aspect of being than the fullness aspect of being.

So, the feminine is all into growth and change and flowering and fullness and eyeing. and the masculine is more

eyeing. and the masculine is more oriented to timelessness and peace and being. Um, so there are

two different orientations, emptiness and fullness or presence and radiance. There's different

ways of saying it feels to me like you've lived 30 different lives. I did a little bit of

different lives. I did a little bit of research. You apparently you instructed

research. You apparently you instructed in artificial intelligence, researched neuroscience, developed yoga techniques for intimate relationships, wrote

PhDs that got a award from the French government, published academic papers, studied spirituality, and then wrote 11 books as well. I'm sure I'm I'm sure I'm

missing an awful lot. What's the What's the through line with this? You know,

you're kind of a especially now with not showing your video, living in the middle of nowhere in in god knows where with trees that are blocking your internet

signal. It you're almost sort of this

signal. It you're almost sort of this esoteric masculinity wizard. Uh

been working on this stuff for so long.

Like what what's the through line? What

what do you want your career to be about and be remembered about?

I don't really think of it in those terms, but there's definitely a through line. Um,

line. Um, for whatever reasons, these thing this this desire to understand reality or who I am or who we are has started very very

early in my life. Very early. I mean, I remember being in the crib. about me

remember being diapered and feeling like ooh you know like there's pers I remember learning what perspective is or crawling on the carpet my grandparents

house and realizing that what size meant like some things were bigger than others like I it's just something I've been interested in all of my life and so at

some point in my life that led me to mathematics I I developed the inducational calculus which is a calculus of distinctions, how

distinctions arise in consciousness.

Published papers in that that also that became biology and immunology. Um I

worked in labs. I worked in a sleep lab to study sleep and dreams. Um they these were all unfoldings to me of the same thing. And during all of that, my main

thing. And during all of that, my main interest is just like what is this like what is the nature of being of reality of me of the world? Like why are we here? what is the meaning and not in an

here? what is the meaning and not in an intellectual sense but to to be able to do it to to write a computer that could think back then I was working on early artificial intelligence or uh you know

in the immune system I was working how does the immune system recognize self from other you know so I was always motivated by that and through that I was

also meditating and doing yoga like you said I had a yoga school um but all of those to me were the same thing they were different ways is just that my

personality or manifested this discovery, manifested this exploration and still is. So for

the last couple of decades I've been, it just naturally came. I've been living in mostly silence and kind of retreat like life. But uh not because I'm avoiding

life. But uh not because I'm avoiding anything. is just I succeeded at every

anything. is just I succeeded at every you know I accomplished what I needed to accomplish and it came to a point of being of rest and that's where this book came from because the men I was seeing

were struggling with that transition.

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wisdom. What is it that you attribute your ability to stay in touch with what you're truly interested in to?

I never had an option. I don't know how to say it. Um it hurt me too much. Uh

for instance, um I I went to when I went to college at 16 years old, I entered a program that was a combination of medical school and undergraduate school at a very young age. So I was going to

medical school very early and studying science and all of these things. And at

one point I remember just sitting there in the library studying I, you know, I was dissecting brains and labs. I was in it deep. And suddenly it was just like I

it deep. And suddenly it was just like I can't do this anymore. Like the I've outgrown this or I it's become obsolete for me. As much as I loved it until

for me. As much as I loved it until yesterday today it's done. And I for some reason I was

it's done. And I for some reason I was able I mean I didn't just quit you know I let things go in an easy way in a responsible way but it became clear to

me that that phase had ended. And

usually I don't know what the next phase is. I spent a year living under a tarp

is. I spent a year living under a tarp on a beach on a deserted part of Hawaii with no money at all. And

that out of that year came my first book. So I didn't know that. I just

book. So I didn't know that. I just

thought I'm done. I'm going to just live under a tarp cheap as possible. So I

did. And then I just started writing. I

didn't plan on it. And

I began to realize that if I could surrender to that process and not be lazy, to really put in the work as things arose for me, that what I created

from that place of depth was worth something to people. So I learned to make a living doing what I love.

I don't know if that's answering your question.

It does. I think it might be difficult for you to to see why waking up one day and feeling like your

work in the lab is no longer fulfilling you in the way that it used to, but not continuing because of sunk cost fallacy or loss aversion or fear of what people

will say or not being able to beat your previous career or whatever. Uh it it seems like that comes pretty naturally to you because the pain of being out of

alignment is greater than the pain of change.

But I I don't think that that's the case. I don't think that's the case for

case. I don't think that's the case for most people. I think I think most people

most people. I think I think most people are pretty ridden ridden by that stuff.

Yes. I would say that the pain of living an untrue life for me exceeded the fear of what might happen if I do. Yes. Yes.

So, so you know, I was willing to risk everything because I just didn't have a choice. Like it hurt so much. Literally

choice. Like it hurt so much. Literally

hurt. Like my body hurt every be, you know, going to do these things hurt to do um

I I don't know how to describe just the pain itself. Suffering like you say is

pain itself. Suffering like you say is the root of a lot of exploration and creation and art. And the suffering just became so intense that you know when I

ended a phase that I had no choice but to allow the new authenticity to find a way to express itself.

I uh I did a retreat. Do you know who Joe Hudson is by any chance? Are you

familiar with him?

I don't. So Joe is a spiritual teacher makes him sound it's far too two-dimensional for what he does but uh eastern western lots of therapeutic modalities does retreats

he's also uh head of human culture at OpenAI he's Sam Alman's coach he's also my coach and um he is he's a a wonderful wonderful man and I did a retreat it was

my first sort of deep emotions boot camp retreat and I did it on a flower farm in uh Santa Rosa in California last year. I did it in I did

it in September and I haven't done Hoffen process. I haven't done IFS. This

Hoffen process. I haven't done IFS. This

is the first thing of its kind that that I've done. And you know, by day

I've done. And you know, by day four of seven, you're pretty cracked open. By day three of seven, you're

open. By day three of seven, you're getting there. By day four of seven,

getting there. By day four of seven, you're pretty cracked open. 12 hours a day working on anger, working on grief, working on sadness, working on upright communication and and apologies. And

it's what you said earlier on about the pain of when you tell a lie sort of it comes back to get you when you get to this this phase of zero because that was kind of like speed

running to zero uh but without the psychedelics and what I found when I got out was all of the ways that my

patterns and in congruence and like just all of the things that I did in the world, the conversations that I would have with with my staff and the small ways that I might I might lie because I didn't want to hurt their feelings. Um I

I I didn't want to say something that might make them uncomfortable. So, I

didn't say what was just true or my truth. Uh or the way that I might deal

truth. Uh or the way that I might deal with a friend who was late for dinner or or an interaction with somebody that I just met or whatever. All of these different

ways there was this and he used the word constriction which is the perfect word for it. There was this sort of

for it. There was this sort of tightening and it feels like it feels like a wet rag. If you imagine a wet rag that sort of goes from the back of your mouth to the middle of your

stomach and it it feels like some it it feels like someone's sort of twisting like this. And um

like this. And um yes, I'd never had I mean I always I try not to lie as best I can and I'd always known that it was something that didn't

make me feel great. I'm a horrendous lie. I'm a really really uh

lie. I'm a really really uh unsophisticated liar. And

unsophisticated liar. And this extra level of sensitivity, you know, this attunement that I had from stripping away, opening my heart, doing

all of this work for, you know, a full week just meant that that that level of sensitivity to the the the rag being

being squeezed inside of me was so it was so [ __ ] hyper sensitized. It was

insane. And um I kind of imagine I just have to assume that this is this is maybe what it's like to be David Dada.

That that level of sensitivity to the pain the pain of misalignment. I was

having a conversation yesterday about why why I'm glad that I get such bad hangovers which is uh the costbenefit

analysis or the the uh reward punishment balance for me for drinking alcohol is just way off. It was never great and now I'm in my 30s and and it's it's gotten

even worse. I'm kind of glad because

even worse. I'm kind of glad because what that means is the likelihood of me ever becoming an alcoholic is super low because the pain I wouldn't even be able to get to the point of dependency because I'd be so miserable after day

three or four. I can't I cannot [ __ ] do this anymore. Um this what you have here is maybe and if you do the work the

opening the freeing uh the the attunement that's kind of the same thing. It's a

very high level of pain when you do something that you shouldn't be doing.

And that whether it's through uh training or just a a a you know fortune gift that you've been given uh means that when you start to do stuff that's out of alignment you feel it very

harshly and that has pushed you through what to to me from the outside looks like again 30 different lives that you've lived but to you just feels like I was just I was following what I was

interested in. I wanted to understand

interested in. I wanted to understand myself and the world around me and I kept going.

I was trying to keep that rag untwisted.

Yeah, that you described the wet rag.

So, you know, you you did a process, a weekl long whatever process to feel that which is great. Um, but you can also feel that at any time. So, right now you

can feel the extent to which that area of your body from your throat down or which is the typical place people feel it. I talk about that in the book a

feel it. I talk about that in the book a lot, the manazer book. So that

contraction in the front of the body from your throat down your solar plexus and down even deeper that's the s that's a signal for you and many men that

they're out of line. Now if their mechanisms like their need for selfworth is so intense it could push them to ignore that for years and years and then

you have to do what you did you know you have to go to a training and have it unpacked which is very useful. I've done

those kind of things. So you you could do it in an intensive kind of way or you can or and you can learn to feel that tension, constriction, contraction as

it's happening and and you're reading that. It's like a meter. It's like

that. It's like a meter. It's like

flying an airplane by instruments.

You're feeling the tightening of that and you're going, "Okay, you you might not be aware of why it's happening, but right now I'm living off the mark. I'm

I'm not living on point." and then they accumulate

on point." and then they accumulate less. But it doesn't matter how you come

less. But it doesn't matter how you come to that place like you said. I mean you could do it through a process which you did which is great. You could do it through some people feel it through psychedelics. Some people just feel it

psychedelics. Some people just feel it through the school of hard knocks just the pain in their life. But yes

that contraction specifically in that part of the body the front the solar plexus the belly the chest um is a sign that you're not relaxed as you're in

depth. It's a sign that your depth isn't

depth. It's a sign that your depth isn't living you. Something's living you

living you. Something's living you that's not your depth.

Yeah, that's the lead indicator. And the

lagging indicator is that you end up in a life that you're not supposed to be in. But that I think it's going to be

in. But that I think it's going to be difficult for you to get to the life that you're not supposed to be in if you haven't denied the wet rag being twisted for quite a long time.

Yeah. I don't know how long, but yes, they go hand in hand. If you ignore that twisted rag, that's what that's just it's it's this it's the constriction, it's the tightening, it's the tensing. And it's

different for different people, right?

Mine sits right in my stomach, right?

The sort of just below my solar plexus.

Feel it sit sits right there and it just feels like someone's twisting it, but sometimes it moves up to my throat and sometimes it moves down. And um

yeah, I get Yeah, that that contraction is the main sign. And different men, as you say, not only feel it at different places in their body. Usually they feel

it where you feel it in the front of their body, kind of near their solar plexus, but they may not feel it in their body. Some men have that

their body. Some men have that contraction in their emotional body. So

they become emotionally unwell, not just physically twisted or but emotionally twisted. Some

men experience it in their, if you will, mental body or intellectual body. So

they start thinking strange thoughts are all twisted up intellectually mentally.

Um, so there's different dimensions that men can feel that contraction in. And

different men feel it primarily in different dimensions and that's the dimension they should focus their work on.

That's interesting. Speaking of that, I I know and I appreciate you uh not encouraging people to growth hack or speedrun their way through phases

that they're not yet in, right? That

kind of you'll get there when you need to get there and the dose that you need to take in order to get to your next level of development sort of arrives at the pace that you're moving through life and maybe trying to speedrun that is

actually not not a a great a great idea.

But across all of the modalities that you've tried, all of the different techniques that you've employed, what are the ones that you attribute the most

amount of I don't want to use the word progress because that sounds like most speedr runninging, but the most amount of development to what are the ones that you come back to the most are the ones

that looking back you go, "Wow, like those things that I did were were very worthwhile and I'm glad that I did them.

Well, again, this is different from man to man. So, I wouldn't want any man to

to man. So, I wouldn't want any man to model me or you or you know that every man has to discover this for themselves.

But for me, um I would say one intimate relationship. So, I've been in long

relationship. So, I've been in long intimate relationship and having a partner. So, you described that part of

partner. So, you described that part of your body twisting, but it could be your partner twisting. It could be your

partner twisting. It could be your partner contracting as a reflection of you being off. And it's harder to bypass

your partner's complaints, your partner's contractions.

And so I would say that the wisdom of my intimate partners just in their natural reflection and depth and love has

probably informed me one of the most.

And then together with that, I would say working with a teacher. And you know, I've worked with just a few teachers, long-term teachers. I don't mean just a

long-term teachers. I don't mean just a learning guitar or something. I mean, so long-term teachers usually could reflect to me areas that I can't see myself or

that I'm not willing to um and and lovingly continue reflecting that to me until I pick it up. So I would say that my relationship with you know a loved

one intimate partner and a relationship with a teacher more than a specific technique although you know I've I as I said you know I had a yoga I've done a

lot of things like kath yoga and tai chi and chiang and moving energy through my body you can also feel those contractions as you can so feeling that contraction in the front of the body

learning how to open that feeling what's forming that um but in for me the love my partner's love and my teachers love

would probably be the most effective ways that I I know what you mean using the word effective kind of but yes that those would be the modalities yeah if you marry wrong you'll become a

philosopher but if you marry well you will become a yoga teacher is that your uh David, uh, let's leave it there, mate. Your your wonderful your work over

mate. Your your wonderful your work over the last, you know, however many decades has just been so great. And, um, it's great to speak to you. You know, you didn't need to do this. I, uh, I I really appreciate you giving me your

time. If if if you give what's this, an

time. If if if you give what's this, an hour and a half, if you do 90 minutes, a decade of uh, of podcasting, I uh, I hope that this one was worthwhile.

Well, you seem authentically and genuinely committed to truth. Um, that's

pretty rare. You know, you're good at what you do. You know, you have this podcast, you've been highly motivated to create this thing, but you're also your heart is in it. And so, I felt moved to

connect with you like this mostly because I agree with your heart. I I

resonate with your heart. I appreciate

you.

I appreciate you, too. I uh

this podcast is a thinly veiled autobiography masquerading as a as a a conversation with you'll be episode 1,100 maybe over

the last eight years. So uh yeah, this is the this is the vehicle that that I've chosen at least for now. And um

I I'm trying to find out what's true.

I'm trying to understand myself and the world around me. And I'm asking people who I think have got at least a few of the answers. And that if I can hold on

the answers. And that if I can hold on to 1% of all of the stuff that I've learned, then I, you know, you said about teachers. I guess I'm just cycling

about teachers. I guess I'm just cycling through. I'm serally monogous with uh

through. I'm serally monogous with uh 1,00 1,100 world experts on a variety of different topics. And we'll see what

different topics. And we'll see what sort of horrendous Frankenstein's monster gets uh constructed out of this by the time that I finish.

Fantastic. We'll trust her heart in the midst of all of it and you'll go the right way.

Beautiful. David, you're wonderful. And

uh let's keep in touch. I'd really love to keep in touch with you. Appreciate

you man.

Me, too. Thanks, Chris.

Thank you very much for tuning in. If

you enjoyed that episode, another one that I know you love is just here.