The Next Wave of AI Companies in Latin America | Tako Founder on The a16z Show

If you look at the Americas, you find that the US is the largest economy in the world. It has 300 what 30 million

the world. It has 300 what 30 million people. If you look at Latin America,

people. If you look at Latin America, we're talking about 650 million people, third largest economic block. We have

engineering talent, GPUs. We have

abundant energy, commodities, biodiversity. It's so hard to do

biodiversity. It's so hard to do business there. The Brazil cost, some

business there. The Brazil cost, some people say it's 10, 20%, you're talking about some of the most complex regulatory frameworks that exist in the planet. I believe that if you build a

planet. I believe that if you build a system that allows companies to deal with all of this complexity, companies are going to be able to do things that were unheard of before.

We're here today with Seas, a serial entrepreneur from Latin America. In

2015, Seas started a company called Rappy, who became the first uh delivery app in Latin America and the first super app and later became the first Colombian

unicorn. Um, after nearly a decade of

unicorn. Um, after nearly a decade of scaling that business into nine countries, 250 cities, so has stepped away to start taco.

And we're going to talk today about Savas's background growing up in Colombia and traveling the world before becoming an entrepreneur, building rap and taco, and how now is the moment that

we're going to start to see more global AI winners coming out of Latin America.

Seas, welcome to A6Z show.

Happy to be here. Thank you.

So, Seas, uh, you grew up in Kali, Colombia. Both of your parents were

Colombia. Both of your parents were entrepreneurs.

You want to tell us a little bit more about your journey having grown up in in Cali and how that shaped you and into the business person that you're now.

Mother very very entrepreneurial. Um

what I saw in her was the intersection of of culture and business. My mother

ended up founding a um can think of as a cir do sole blended with salsa. Um, Cali

was always a very culturally rich city, especially around music.

So, I think that's that's that's very very pretty much part of who we are. Um,

on on the other hand, my dad was um also very entrepreneurial uh uh character, more of the type of starting one thing, moving on to the next with

maybe maybe little little little structure. So, I was always exposed to

structure. So, I was always exposed to that. um have lots of memories of of um

that. um have lots of memories of of um just spending time with them as they were building their companies or or or pursuing any any business. My parents

got divorced when I was five. So I grew up in a very independent way. So just

imagine you go to one's house, you go to the other, very flexible, not a not a a very rigid uh structure. And and I think

um what I saw was a deeply creative culture. um we kind of have to because

culture. um we kind of have to because we also grew with a lot of uh um tough circumstances around us. Um it's not

necessarily the most affluent place. So

So I think the the way to get ahead is just by the application of resilience, creativity, uh and being able to do things that that the common person is

maybe not pursuing. So, so that was pretty much my my my upbringing and then um I ended up doing something that changed my life a lot and and and and is

is is the beginning of of a path of becoming an immigrant. Um and and I I went to to Barcelona when I was 17 18

years old. Um that was a um a big change

years old. Um that was a um a big change and and at the same time was it was it was And what led you to Barcelona?

My father was living in Europe at the time and I was traveling often even when I was in in in high school. So um my dad was the type of person that would say in

the middle of school like hey we're going for a trip. It's like okay where are we going? I don't know. we're going

to remember a trip to Rio in in Brazil.

I was like, "Dad, but I have classes."

And he's like, "Yeah, but you're going to learn more with me than in a classroom." So, so that was quite

classroom." So, so that was quite common. And and there were trips to

common. And and there were trips to Europe and we ended up pursuing something that wasn't that common at the time. Like I would say most of my my my

time. Like I would say most of my my my friends end up staying or others the few that left came to the US. So going to Europe wasn't necessarily like a like a

thing. Um, but for me it was very

thing. Um, but for me it was very interesting also because it was a it was a decent school but more than that I think what Europe gives you is access to to the world because

um you're broke, you have little little money but you always have €50 to get on a plane and just go to Berlin for weekend or Paris or stumble or whatever.

And that's just a great way I think to to to learn. So, so that was that was very very important. I think my life as

a as a as a person of the world started started then.

Awesome. And um you know after Spain you decided to come to arguably the greatest city in the world, New York City where we are now. But um you want to talk a

little bit about that experience coming to New York and you know after New York you decided to go back to Latin America and start a company which is not usually like the common path and now you have

started two companies in Latin America.

So you know we have this thesis that like having exposure to the rest of of the world obviously makes you a great entrepreneur.

you want to expand a little bit on that as well and how that shaped you into building the companies that you're building now in Latin America.

There's more to the story. So, so I'm going to have to to to maybe expand on the on the first chapters because as as as I arrived to Barcelona, um two years

in I lost my father and and that was a um quite the the crucible moment for me because not only you're dealing with the

the personal um drama and the family drama that that entails, but also you have to stand up for yourself and and it was a moment where we just didn't have the money to just continue to pursue

what I was doing. And I ended up going to Madrid because uh the only thing that I could afford was public school and I didn't want to do public school in Barcelona because I didn't want to do classes in Catalan. So I grabbed my

bags, I went to Madrid, landed in Madrid and this was in the middle as I was dealing with my father's passing. Um so

it was a pretty pretty tough moment. And

as soon as I I landed in Madrid, I started what I would say is my first company. I was like 20. Um, and I I I I

company. I was like 20. Um, and I I I I call it the the the the Spotify without the internet because uh in essence what I did is it was the you guys remember

the 10,00 songs in your pocket. Oh yeah.

You know, classic one of the best marketing slogans ever. And when I saw that, I always love music, but when I saw that, I said, well, like the consumption of music just fundamentally changed. It's not going to be physical

changed. It's not going to be physical devices any longer. It's going to be databases.

So my great idea was I'm going to get my hands on as many of these hypos as possible and I'm just going to fill them with tailored databases depending on the business. So you can be a bar, you can

business. So you can be a bar, you can be a restaurant, you can be a business, you can be an individual and I would basically mark up the price of the of the of the iPod. So I have

like a like a team of five people.

Imagine a room with five or seven computers, all of them connected to the internet. Napster equivalents and just

internet. Napster equivalents and just like download the downloading music and and and sending it to to to people. So,

um that was the way that I was able to stay in Madrid uh with that small business. Um when I when I finished

business. Um when I when I finished school, the world was uh a bit upside down because it was the great financial crisis and I didn't want to stay in in

Spain. I wanted to be in a place that

Spain. I wanted to be in a place that was more dynamic. So, where else to come than New York? Uh but as all great entrepreneurs do, you come with a

complete misunderstanding of the challenges and the risks and and how hard it's going to be which is one of the the blessings of being a optimistic

founder and I landed in New York in in winter 2009 uh with very little savings.

Um but it it then started five six amazing years in in New York where I continued to build companies. I met my

my my wife found my first investors uh build a very global company um and that global company um what we were doing is just enabling supermarkets to

sell groceries. Mhm.

sell groceries. Mhm.

One of my clients was Reliance Industries in India and I ended up spending on and off like roughly 5 to 6 months in in in Mumbai and and that for me was very inspirational because I got to see how

technology could be applied in large emerging markets and I I heard things that I had never heard before which was listen we're going to connect a billion people to the internet through

smartphones. We're going to bypass the

smartphones. We're going to bypass the cable. We're gonna just we're gonna

cable. We're gonna just we're gonna bypass the traditional internet stack.

we're going to go directly to mobile.

Um, and that was so inspirational for me because I saw how it was being built. I

saw how they were bringing 757 planes full of smartphones from Korea and China because there were no smartphones in in India. So, I think

that that allowed me to see the possibilities of WPPY and I think that's when I started to to think well what could happen if we apply technology to

the emerging world. So then we start going more into the into the into the Rappy chapter.

Yeah. And so anybody in Latin America had like 100% name recognition has heard of Rappy. But in case we have any

of Rappy. But in case we have any listeners not aware of WPY, can you describe what is the company and maybe a sense of the scale that it's at now?

It's the operating system for local commerce across Latin America.

uh operating across nine cities uh sorry nine countries, 300 cities.

Um a product that allows you to have groceries, restaurants, liquors delivered to you in minutes, in some cases under 10 minutes.

Um because we do picking from restaurants, we do picking from groceries, but we also do our own delivery. Um it's one of the most uh

delivery. Um it's one of the most uh special stories of resilience and entrepreneurship that has come from from the region. Um it's been the place where

the region. Um it's been the place where more than 100 companies, 150 companies have been founded by fellow RAPI alumni.

Um it's a company that has impacted the life of the lives of millions of people uh that are thanks to Rappy earning multiples of their minimum wage in a

flexible way. Um it's a company that um

flexible way. Um it's a company that um also has a very mature uh operating system to be able to to to run a business that is incredibly hard and

complex. Uh it's multi-vertical, it's

complex. Uh it's multi-vertical, it's low margin, it's competitive. So that

basically made us like very battleh hardened operators. Um it's a company

hardened operators. Um it's a company that has a very very special group of people and talents uh uh working on in the company. some of them coming from

the company. some of them coming from the best companies in the world. Um, a

company that is is still founder led today by by my two co-ounders, Philipe, Philipe and Simon, who who are leading the company with incredible love for the

mission and the impact and and and it's amazing to see them operate and I'm still super close. I'm just helping in a in a in a different in a different way.

I left the company around a year ago, of course. Um, and I think it would be

of course. Um, and I think it would be it'd be interesting actually to talk a little bit about the founding story of Rappy, especially because it relates relates a little bit to how you're navigating what you're doing now. But

Rappy, I think, was iteration three. You

had you had two companies before. And

one of the things we often talk about is how sometimes the big idea ends up being an infrastructure problem of an idea before. And in this case, the problem

before. And in this case, the problem was logistics. like you've now created

was logistics. like you've now created like a very complex logistics business but maybe talk a little bit about the the discovery and how you guys landed on the idea.

Simona and I uh had built a previous company that had brought me to to India and and that company was uh in essence

um a mobile experience integrated with a supermarkets or a retailers order management system. So we we started

management system. So we we started solving the problem from a more customerf facing experience, but we didn't want to do the fulfillment piece.

We didn't want to touch the the moving of the atoms. Maybe two years in into building that company, we started realizing that if we wanted to really change the customer

experience and offer something that was orders of magnitude better, we needed to own the whole uh operation.

We needed to have the mobile experience, the front end, the payments, the fraud, and especially the logistics and and and and the connection with the

local content or or or inventory. And

and I think RPI RPI was born of um the possibilities of creating a novel experience, but it was also born out of frustration because we were seeing these large incumbents that just couldn't think away

from bringing people to their brick and mort mortar stores and and it was just very hard to change that. So, so Rap's first delivery was around October of

2015.

We initially launched uh one market which was Bogotaa in Colombia.

Maybe two three months in we went to Mexico and that was the the classic investor telling you you shouldn't go international too early.

Yep. We didn't listen at all to that and and in partly we didn't listen to because I think we wanted to build an important company and and we understood that

being in the right markets mattered and being in the markets that had scaled matter. So, so we did something that was

matter. So, so we did something that was probably not the most common thing to do and and then um it was a um um

effort of understanding what is the operating system of a company like this.

How do you at the at at its core is a is a optimization problem where you need to have perfect balancing of customers,

couers, merchants in every micro zone and you almost kind of operate these microones in a very independent way because otherwise the the the the flywheel breaks. If you don't have

flywheel breaks. If you don't have enough couriers or you have a lot of customers, the experience is not great.

you have a lot of curans and not not enough customers, not great for the for the couriers. So, so so

the couriers. So, so so we we went in that direction and and and we made sure that we were um pretty much

uh obsessed with with working with builders, working with founder profiles, um being very very close to the audiences. Uh we have a lot of a lot of

audiences. Uh we have a lot of a lot of stories of of of just how hard it is to build this this company in every city in every country.

What do you think like this would be I think a very complicated business to build anywhere. Was there anything about

build anywhere. Was there anything about being in Latin America specifically or you know Brazil or Mexico or Colombia that like specifically made it more

challenging or different?

Where do we start? I mean there there's there's just no existing stack that you can build upon. There's no as a service.

No, there's lots as a service if nothing. So, so you as a service.

nothing. So, so you as a service.

Yeah. So, so I mean we could argue that that Amazon utilized a lot of FedExes and USPS infrastructure, right? We we

didn't have that. So, so it applies to logistics. Um

logistics. Um payments was another one. Um there's a fairly it's depends on the market, some markets more than others, but payments

are still cash driven. So we had to build our our capa our capabilities to actually accept cash, right? Or or

fraud, right? Like you can work with any fraud company, all of a sudden you see these weird behaviors and and and and they were like just not being able to spot it. So we had to build our own

spot it. So we had to build our own fraud uh uh systems and on and on and on and on, you know. So, so on on in perspective, I think doing the hard

things and and and owning as much as possible of of of of your operation and going vertical, it's hard, but it's also very defensible, you know. So, so it's it's

it's hard to hard to compete against that. It allows you to provide much

that. It allows you to provide much better customer experiences, but it also it also makes it really really hard for someone else to do. So, so I think durability and defensibility are two

things that I think constantly about. We

can we can expand on that, but but but it has a it has a silver silver lining.

And if you look today, RAP is the only independent founder company in this category in the region and and we're talking about the third largest economic

block in the world and and that's a I think that's a a special special place to be. to seas. Um you lefty about a

to be. to seas. Um you lefty about a year ago um and then you started a second company uh in the region and you

know you want to talk us a little bit more about this company um what does the company does and why did you pick this this problem specifically?

Taco. Um, what we're building is um an intelligence layer for companies to run their workforce operations.

What that means is that we build um agents that understand all of the labor regulation and we build applications to be able to

support all of the operations that are related to just running running and managing people. Um, I'll give you I'll

managing people. Um, I'll give you I'll give you examples of what that means.

So, we have uh we build this uh uh product. We're I think the only company

product. We're I think the only company in the world that has built uh a complete data set that has all of the corpus of labor of Brazil in the world.

May maybe give us a a sense of for the non-Brazilians of just the complexity of Yeah. to put it to put it in to put it

Yeah. to put it to put it in to put it in context uh uh some people say that the the the Brazil cost is a fraction of

their GDP. What that means is that some

their GDP. What that means is that some people say it's 10 20%. I I I don't know I don't know exactly of the total GDP of the country but that means is that it's so hard to do business there. Um that it

partially explains why um you have a country with incredible talent, an incredible stack, a super forwardthinking regulatory body. uh very

talented people that have built companies, but at the same time, you see an economy that's still sluggish and doesn't grow. And if you bring that

doesn't grow. And if you bring that closer to the space where Taco operates, that's we're talking about taxes and

labor, um you easily go into the 20 $30 billion of of of cost. And and and that's because you're talking about some of the most complex regulatory

frameworks that exist in the planet.

Brazil is definitely top top three. Uh

some people say it's the most complex country in the world. And and if you start understanding what this means on labor, you have tens of regulatory

frameworks from the constitution to what's um decided by a judge at a at a regional level that contradict each other that change often

um and that makes it incredibly hard for companies to to operate there today.

It's a very hostile environment for businesses. So I believe that if you

businesses. So I believe that if you build a a system that allows companies to deal with all of this complexity, you are completely changing what companies

can do. Not by a 10 20 30% I'm going to

can do. Not by a 10 20 30% I'm going to make you better. No, companies are going to be able to do things that were unheard of before. And I think now AI allows you to just take over a lot of

the work that is in essence low value services that are provided by a lot of a lot of people that are living from this the say not of complexity.

Yeah.

So so we took on on on something that was quite uh complex. We took on on something that I find it fascinating because I think complexity and doing

things that are hard are great places to find durability and defensibility.

And what that means is that all of these all of these data sets now exist within our system.

Um we we built the the yeah it's it's the richest the only data set that exists.

Taken the regulation turned it into code updating it all the time. Making sure

you have the data pipelines making sure that you build a proper taxonomy to understand how the laws interact with each other. um making sure that uh this

each other. um making sure that uh this is easily readable by by by agents. So

we have one product that is called auto and auto in essence is for those that understand and think of it as open evidence for but for labor right auto not only understands any law with

benchmarks that are much better than your general LLM um but it also helps you as a company understand if you're staying compliant

right and and and staying compliant is is is is incredibly important because if you don't you're talking about people's money you're talking about additional payments, you're talking about fines.

So, so, so that product is is one of them. We also we also build uh a system

them. We also we also build uh a system of agents that basically allow companies to recruit, to on board, to pay, to send

all of the events to government, um to um integrate with your accounting system, to let go of an employee. Um and

all of this is basically agents that are taking over the work uh that is today being done in a in a very low low low quality way. So so our customers are

quality way. So so our customers are mediumsized companies but also some of the largest companies in in in Brazil.

Talk to us a little bit. I think you know one of the things is very differentiated about you is that it's almost as if you think about talent first and you know everything else

second. you you focus about being

second. you you focus about being surrounded with the best people and we've seen this in Brazil how you recruit people in Brazil but now recently you know Taco has opened uh

hacker house in in Silicon Valley and I think that that's pretty innovative for the region you don't see a lot of companies that like think that way and make the effort to kind of build their

brand to recruit the best people in Silicon Valley to to work for it so maybe you want to expand a little bit about how you think about talent And I know that you have great anecdotes on on

recruiting people. So it'll be great for

recruiting people. So it'll be great for the founders in the audience too to understand what it takes. You recruited

a lot of people from Door Dash for for WPY and I think that a lot of those learnings show in Taco now, but just curious yeah if you can share a little bit more about how you think about talent.

I I think it comes from my my personal experience also as a as a as an immigrant and having built in in Europe or having lived and built in New York. I

think when when when you see those things, you start um understanding that great comes from different places, but you stop um

thinking that what is great is is in essence what you know because you come from a specific place, right? You're not

you're not necessarily uh um thinking about uh well um this is locally great.

No, you immediately go to globally great because that's what it's take what it takes.

So I've always been very very interested about uh identifying who these people are and very interested in identifying talent that is overlooked that is

probably not the the the the standard uh looking person. Um, I

interview in a in a in a particular way.

Uh, maybe some people do it, but mine is is really trying to understand people's childhoods, origins, mommy and daddy stories, uh, resilience stories,

hardship stories. Um, and I go very

hardship stories. Um, and I go very early. I go to childhood. I go to

early. I go to childhood. I go to teenage years. I think there's just a

teenage years. I think there's just a lot of signal by understanding a person.

And I also think that when you're hiring really smart people, they are they're very good at selling themselves and and very good at saying all the right things that you want to hear. So, um I discount

that a little bit more and I I try to focus on on on the person. Um I have this little rubric that every time that I'm interviewing or or or looking for candidates, it looks like a like a like a diamond and I always have it in my

head. So, it's a diamond with four

head. So, it's a diamond with four corners. So, in in in in one corner you

corners. So, in in in in one corner you have IQ obvious. one one smart people on another corner we have EQ which is the emotional emotional intelligence sure

very important the other ones are a little bit different so so one is AQ which is the adversity quotient or resilience so I spend a lot of time evaluating for

that um then you go to the last corner which is energy so some people call it agency but but but at the end you want people that are enthusiastic with

solving problems that are just able to take things all the way to the end. Um

that like to overcome challenges and problems. I think that requires a lot of energy. And then at the center there's a

energy. And then at the center there's a heart and I like to work with people that have high integrity, high values and and and I think yeah high trust. So

so I always I always do this and that you take the global part and you take this this this assessment of of of talent. I think uh um if if if if if you

talent. I think uh um if if if if if you look at building a global company um which is is always my my aspiration you need to have people that are globally

great. So um in the case of of of Taco

great. So um in the case of of of Taco for example uh Taco has incredible talent. It's a highly d talent dense

talent. It's a highly d talent dense company very very very profound on engineering. Um, and what we started

engineering. Um, and what we started realizing is that the team was incredibly talented, but we also wanted to connect them with what's the cutting edge of how to apply artificial

intelligence for real.

So, we we have this connection to the US, more concretely, San Francisco, and and we basically have um it's a house where our engineers spend a lot of time.

We've recruited people in San Francisco as well. And and I think it's been

as well. And and I think it's been fascinating to see how they they learn.

And I initially started seeing this at at WPPY where um at one moment I was probably investing 70 80% of my time on

on talent. And I remember very clearly

on talent. And I remember very clearly at WPPY uh maybe around 2020 21 like we were riding the the the COVID wave. It was wild like all of this

wave. It was wild like all of this demand that came forward but it was just so hard to operate the company and I remember sitting in a table and looking around our team and it's like these guys are incredible,

incredibly talented, hardworking but the complexity is just insane.

Yeah. So I want to think about who are the best people in the world doing these companies and and I I mean I think Door Dash is a company that I that I deeply

admire and I think it's one of the best run companies in the US and in the world. So I started meeting people there

world. So I started meeting people there and I was incredibly impressed. Um

little did I know that the consequence of that was like probably around 25 people from from Florida that started working impressed and relentless if I remember something. Yeah.

something. Yeah.

they ended up working at at RPY and and they were incredibly impactful in the company with our team, right? I think

our team was able to were able to take this a lot of these lessons and also execute at par with this with this with these individuals and that required a

lot of a lot of very intense uh recruiting. I there's not a lot of

recruiting. I there's not a lot of presidents of companies in this part of the world that are able to bring some of the best talent from some of the best companies in the world.

Well, which is maybe one more question on that. Um cuz I know you're still very

on that. Um cuz I know you're still very focused on recruiting now for Taco. Both

at RPI and at Taco, there's a lot of future founders. Is it just, you know,

future founders. Is it just, you know, future founders or people who want to start their own companies mapped to your rubric or is that another sort of lens that you're you're looking for

especially attractive place?

If a candidate comes to me and says, I want to start a company, I love it. And

and I I took that deal all day long. I

it was basically something like this.

Look, I want to be an entrepreneur. I

want to start a company. I say amazing.

Give me 3, four years of your life.

We're going to give you a lot of uh learnings, lessons. You're going to make

learnings, lessons. You're going to make mistakes with other people's money. It's

going to be a great way for you to learn how to be an entrepreneur. And and I think if if I look at Rapid for example, uh because the business was so hard, and I thought about this, I think I think

PayPal is a is a great example. It's a

hard business, right? And I think that's why you get so many of these like incredibly talented entrepreneurs, right? People being one of the probably

right? People being one of the probably the be the best group of entrepreneurs that ever has ever existed.

And and these folks were just touching real things. I mean, high stakes like

real things. I mean, high stakes like budgets recruiting firing operations commercial, product engineering, now payroll.

No, no, no, no, no, no payroll and and and tough stuff. So, so we we I love that and and and I think those those

type of profiles uh I I I love working with them and and giving them as much of learnings that I can. I have to say also that I I I learn a lot from them too.

like something that we've we've done with Gabe and and Gabe and I have been on quite quite a few crazy trips together and and I I take every

introduction that Gave sent sends my way um and some of them are just very young uh potential founders and maybe they learn a few things from them

but I sure learn a lot from them. So I

think over the last years I've spent especially if the last four years I spent a lot of time just being a student again. Uh I I find that

again. Uh I I find that the best trip so far it has to be the North Pole.

If you tell me that we were going to be doing Arctic skiing stalking a hurricane in the North Pole and then doing Nordic skiing, I wouldn't have I wouldn't have

believed it. But we we we survived it.

believed it. But we we we survived it.

Well, awesome. So as maybe closing the chapter a little bit about Taco and then we can jump a little bit more into the opportunity of AI in Brazil and like what what would it take for Latin

America to produce not only great local companies but like global winners. Um

but maybe tell us a little bit what what what is coming up next with Taco like what what is happening in the next 12 to 24 months. Taco today has in in in

24 months. Taco today has in in in essence four um products with four um ICPS and

it's the the labor um product where you basically you can understand um like no one can the the law and

untangle this super complex system that product is being used by end customers by midsize companies but also by enterprise companies. Then we have a um

enterprise companies. Then we have a um a product which is a bunch of agents that are doing end-to-end work for companies. So from recruiting to on

companies. So from recruiting to on boarding to paying, processing payroll, sending the payments, doing all of the integrations with accounting, all of the

integrations with the government uh for midsize companies. We we built another

midsize companies. We we built another product which is um a voice recruiting agent which is again thinking about about defensibility

and doing things in the right way. Um

this voice is also trained on Brazilian regulation. So it's not your just your

regulation. So it's not your just your your voice agent but we take all of the operating principles of the company the typical interviews. Then that agent

typical interviews. Then that agent creates the script of the questions that are going to be asked and we we ensure that the the the agent stays compliant

with AI laws and non-discrimination laws that are incredibly important in Brazil.

Again, you don't just do well, you get sued, right? So, so, so it's it's

sued, right? So, so, so it's it's incredibly incredibly important to to to do it well. This product is typically used by large companies in the tens of thousands of of employees that have a lot of churn and they need to hire a lot

of people. And then the fourth product

of people. And then the fourth product is an enterprise motion where we're going to the largest organizations and we're solving some of their hardest problems. Um and and we're starting with

the people related problems because we believe that if you crack that and you understand a people and you build a people database that is properly constructed then you can have these

people running whatever type of agent and we build our own agent OS and and and and we can build the agent select the tools select the model do the

evolves all of the telemetry who is using it who's not using it the the the whole the whole thing. So I think those those four four big pillars are are are

what we're going to be focused on for for for the year. And I think um the application of AI in enterprise requires

this. It's it's I I I wish that we

this. It's it's I I I wish that we stop talking about features, stop talking about models, stop talking about agentic this, copilot that,

um co-friendi this. And I think we should be talking about in essence what the work that the that the agent is doing with a clear indication of of the outcome. And we speak a lot about this

outcome. And we speak a lot about this at at Taco like you should be able to explain it in layman terms to anyone without using AI. Don't talk about AI.

Don't talk about models. Talk about what the the agent is going to be doing for the company in terms of work. And we

also talk a lot about taco in in in in terms of um building things in an inside out way. What I mean by that is there's

out way. What I mean by that is there's this um museum in Paris which is the central Pompidu and it's it's a building that is completely hated by all

Parisians. They hate it. I I don't hate

Parisians. They hate it. I I don't hate it, but I remember the first time that I saw it, I was very impressed with this building because it's a building that is inside out. It's it's it's the opposite

inside out. It's it's it's the opposite of other buildings. So So So you see the pipes, you see the stairs, you see the air vents, you see the AC, and each of them has a individual color, right? I

don't remember if red red is for uh elevators and stairs and transportation.

I don't remember exactly what it is, but I love that concept because I think if you're going to build an agent, you should be able to see it and to understand it. This is a problem. A lot

understand it. This is a problem. A lot

of these things are black boxy.

Enterprises don't get it. But if you're able to see it and you say, "Look, an agent is a system of software at this moment. It's calling this tool. It's

moment. It's calling this tool. It's

using this model. It's working on this data set. This is this is where it's at

data set. This is this is where it's at at the moment." And you see the progress. I think that's an incredible

progress. I think that's an incredible important unlock to be able to apply this in enterprises. So I think tackle has a critical role in making sure that companies don't stay behind in terms of

AI like they all get it. They all

understand that they need to use AI but then you you try to bring it down and they are still very much behind. It is a

perfect segue to be um I'll say AI opportunity writ large in Latam and one of the things we talk about often like it is probably the most exciting time to

be building like definitely since we've been in technology and the AI opportunity anywhere is very large because you're not only tackling the software market you're now tackling the

software and the labor market and if you go to LATAM one thing I think many people there don't realize is software for a variety of reasons never really

took off in a lot of sectors and in a huge way it was just labor was cheaper like I remember like trying like hey you should buy my fraud software I was like why would I do that I've got 200 people

that cost less over there and so I think the opportunity now is you're not replacing sort of software and labor like there's all of these industries that are you know arguably 15 20 years

behind um but just to say a bit provocatively if you look at the large AI companies that have been scaling they haven't yet

come out of LATAM and so do you think is it just a matter of time does something else have to change obviously you know you're you're building one but like what is it that for the the region to really

take advantage given that they skipped the last generation and so this opportunity is twice as big if not more what you say about about labor is so true I I call it has which is humans as

a service and and and that cuz that that that was the that was that was always an issue and then the issue is even worse because a lot of these SAS are incredibly poor

and then it's a bunch of screens with humans with hasses running running the products. It's just terrible.

products. It's just terrible.

It's it's also it's also true what you say that the markets are um very large and and if you look at the economies of Latin America, it's they're very serviceoriented and generally they're

not high value added services. These are

low quality services that are being provided and and I think there is a lot that AI can do to go after those big markets. So previously we were talking

markets. So previously we were talking about the size of the problems of uh Brazilian complexity for taxes and labor.

That's a classic example. I mean when when we think about those the size of those problems those are opportunities for companies that are taking over. Um,

so your question on what it needs to happen for us to have real quality companies is a being able to serve those markets. So I think the application is

markets. So I think the application is going to be incredibly important. Um,

the application of something so complex takes a little longer. Um, I I I go back a lot to the building of high quality

businesses. Um, and I was I was studying

businesses. Um, and I was I was studying this this this this book that I that I like a lot. It's called Engines That Move Marcus by Alles N if I'm mentioning

his last name correctly. But the the book basically just covers the last 300 years of technology revolutions, right?

And you go back to the railroads and you go through main computers, personal computers, everything in between, mobile, the internet, cloud, on prem, the whole thing. And at the end of the

book, he basically talks a lot about um the the characteristics that he found, right? And it's it's it's great to see

right? And it's it's it's great to see because you see some patterns, right? So

there were people that were hyping it.

There were people that were underhyping it. There were uh people that were

it. There were uh people that were saying that if you go on a train, your lungs are going to explode and that the internet was not going to count to anything. and and there's some people

anything. and and there's some people talking about it in different ways, but my favorite one is that the companies that really created value uh in each of those technology revolutions were

companies that were very durable. And in

many cases, they had some monopolistic is a tough word, but I'm going to use it dynamics. And in essence, it it mean it

dynamics. And in essence, it it mean it meant that the companies were big, but they also had durability. And durability

is a function of defensibility. And it

could take many shapes. It could be network effects, it could be scale, it could be switching cost, um it could be um that you're doing very hard IP, that you build a great brand. All of those

things are I think very important. So

going back, if you're doing if you want to se serve this very heavy services sectors like in our case, it's very

complicated and you need to do it well and you're basically taking over people's liabilities. If you think about

people's liabilities. If you think about it, I'm absorbing all of that liability because the company is saying you're going to manage this for me and if you if I don't manage it properly, I'm going

to be on the hook and I love that. I can

take it all day because I understand the risk and I understand the risk because I build the product and I have the systems and AI that understands the risk, right?

So, so I think we're going to be seeing companies that do that very well and that are going to have scale and they're going to have defensibility. I also

think we we need to continue to invest in being as sovereign as possible in terms of the AI stack. Uh and what I mean by that is um I would love to see

more AI clusters. I would love to see more GPUs that are hosted there. I would

love to see more um even even integration of American companies in the stack. It's it's another topic, but I'm

stack. It's it's another topic, but I'm I'm a little worried about the the the US not being closer and have a lot of Chinese uh companies taking over the stack. Whether it's cloud, whether it's

stack. Whether it's cloud, whether it's telco, whether it's applications of AI, whether it's models, I I think it's really important that this stays in the

in the in the American hemisphere. So, I

would love to see more of that. Um I

think we need to be doing more in terms of research. We're doing that in in in

of research. We're doing that in in in taco now where we're doing fine tuning of our own models. I think we need to have a point of view on that because um again defensibility I think you cannot

just be relying on someone else's stack especially when you're talking about very highly important information right you need to have your world gardens as you guys say right so so so I I think

that also needs to happen and then you need to have teams and founders and engineers that are really really ahead uh studying all the time a lot of the the knowledge in AI is is on papers and

it's out there in X but a lot of it is very tribal and you need to be learning all the time and be talking to the companies that are applying in the right way.

So, so I think we we see all of that, we're going to have uh great companies being built and I I think it's I think it's it's going to start to happen and I wouldn't rule out that these companies

are going to go beyond Brazil. I mean,

if Taco solves these problems in Brazil, I think the other markets are going to be they definitely seem easier.

Yeah. hard but but I I I think they can be they can be doable. Yeah.

Earlier you mentioned you know how Brazil is ahead in certain frameworks or especially on the regulatory side. Um

you know the central bank is an institution that we have spent a lot of time studying. It's kind of impressive.

time studying. It's kind of impressive.

It's very very impressive what they what they've done in Brazil and how that drove uh fintech innovation in in the country. Um, you know, one of the

country. Um, you know, one of the questions that we have is that when people abroad think of Brazil, they still still think of Brazil as an emerging market. But, um, what do you

emerging market. But, um, what do you what would you say to to the people listening on what is it that they're missing about Brazil?

I think um, the most uh, misunderstood innovator in Brazil is the central bank.

It's it's it's it's incredible not only on on PICSS which is what's most widely understood but also on drags and how to utilize blockchain and how to do um

regulation the proper way and and also a lot of people don't understand this but is it's the central bank of Brazil that is exporting a lot of their uh um a lot of their experience to other countries

to have similar systems or payment systems. So in addition in addition to them being highly technical and I think

we've we've all met them and and the former uh central central um um central bank director of Brazil is incredible. I

mean you would talk about technology and cryptography and it's amazing. So so so that's that's that's that's something that's sets Brazil ahead for sure. Um

but I think also Brazil has other pieces of the Brazilian stack. Um I I I dealt with one of them which is the the the regulatory uh body that governs

competition. Incredibly sophisticated,

competition. Incredibly sophisticated, incredible technocratic, incredible uh uh how they make decisions, how they think about markets. I was super impressed. Uh and I had

impressed. Uh and I had several interactions with them back in the day in in in RPI. I'm seeing it today in in in taco, for example, in

everything that governs um relationships with companies and workers. There's a

central repository in Brazil called Esocial.

And I don't I don't know if there's any country that has this, but in social you have around 10 million companies with almost 60 million employees with all of their events of

every type of event that has happened in a company with an employee from you get hired, you get paid, you take holidays, uh you take pay time off, like all of

that stuff is is is registered. And

that's that's that's that's incredibly important. And and for us, I mean, it's

important. And and for us, I mean, it's it's it's a huge asset because we understand those those those repositories. So, we can on board

repositories. So, we can on board companies in days, for example, we only need access to the to the to the system and we on board a company in in in days.

It's it's it's super powerful. Um and

and and you can go on and on in in in other pieces of the stack of the Brazilian stack. So, um, money there

Brazilian stack. So, um, money there moves so much faster, uh, from what we like. Taxes move so like you pay taxes.

like. Taxes move so like you pay taxes.

I don't file taxes in in Brazil, but I have friends that do and partners that do and my co-founder Fernando does it in Brazil, but it's just it's just um it's like you're basically you have everything ready. You just sign it on

everything ready. You just sign it on your phone, you tap, and you're ready to go.

Sending a sale.

Yes. Yes. So, so I I think it's it's it's it's very very very modern and I think it's it's important that we tell the right narrative about what what what

this market is with all of its problems and all of its challenges. But but it it is true.

No, it's interesting that well in all those ways and more. Brazil is so far ahead than many places in the world. Yet

I think one of the stats of the the skeptics often bring out is that there's been no per capita growth for a decade.

So why how would you explain that?

Prominent a prominent investor. I'm not

going to mention him, but he he asked me the same question and it was framed for Brazil, but it was also framed for Mexico.

We're so close to Mexico, largest economic block. What's going on? Why

economic block. What's going on? Why

don't why don't we grow?

and and and I think uh um there's elements of just the cost of doing business in these countries, right? It's

a low cost. It's a low trust environment. That's why we're solving

environment. That's why we're solving this problem to give trust. So you have a a common uh um language and a common infrastructure for people to to govern

and hire and just govern workers relationships. Um so so those things I

relationships. Um so so those things I think solve part of the problem. It's

hard to grow if you're basically have all of these expenses on just doing the basic things a company needs to do like filing taxes and and and and paying employees, right? It's it's obviously

employees, right? It's it's obviously hard and and and I think the promise is that if you have artificial intelligence applied to these problems, you're going to remove part of that, right? That

doesn't solve the whole the whole problem. I I I I think that these are

problem. I I I I think that these are just removing all of this complexity in which companies need to operate because I seen how inefficient they are. I think

it's going to be an it's going to have eventually an impact on the GDP. I

cannot calculate how much but but it's definitely an issue. Um I I I also think that uh there we need to see bigger

companies coming from new businesses, right? Then um we know all of the great

right? Then um we know all of the great companies that have come out from Latin America. Um and many of them are

America. Um and many of them are friends, mutual friends. We often speak about about this. We we never build these companies uh with the governments.

We never had like oh such a so great to execute with this president. He helped

us so much. It was it was pretty much in spite of it, right? And and then you get incredible companies being built, right?

And through all of these like recessionary cycles and and and macro cycles and political cycles. So I think there is it's important to also maybe take that perspective these

companies are going to still exist and they're still going to thrive in spite of the macro which is really important.

Um, and hopefully when as they get bigger, they're going to help modernize the economy because there's few companies that still have, I think, too much power, which explains part of the

the that the lackluster growth. Um, and

maybe the classic, right, like education and we need to have people that are more capable, doing works that are jobs that are more uh technologically focused, uh, applied to other parts of the economy.

At the end, economies grow because of productivity. And if we don't improve

productivity. And if we don't improve the productivity, we're going to still be seeing the same same dynamic.

So, you have this concept about or you often discuss the the airline Panama and it's kind of tied to to your story

and what you want to achieve uh in the in the years to come. And you also describe yourself as a founder that you don't want investors to put you in a box. And uh it'll be it'll be great if

box. And uh it'll be it'll be great if you can you can share a little bit more about those two the box or both.

If you if you if you look at at at this at the Americas um you find that the US is the largest economy in the world if it has 300 what 30 million people. If

you look at Latin America we're talking about 650 million people. Third largest

economic block. Um, if you look at the assets that we have, we have them all. I

think maybe some rare earth metal metal we don't have. I don't think we have like uranium but I think aside from that we have uh GPUs we have engineering

talent we have abundant energy we have commodities we have biodiversity uh we have two oceans that are fairly

protective and we have three languages broadly speaking we have similar cultures similar religions we're in the same time zone so for founders that are

building teams in Eastern Europe or founders that are operating here in San Francisco with teams in Stockholm. Like

they're going to connect to what I'm saying. So I I I want to see way more

saying. So I I I want to see way more integration of this and and I want to see more talent flowing and I want to see more companies flowing from one side to the other and I want to see more

capital. I think if we do that uh we're

capital. I think if we do that uh we're going to be talking about just enormous abound abundance along this corridor and and that's the optimistic side. There's

also a side that is more alarming, which is I I think we're going to we're going to look back. I'm I'm here in the US.

I'm a US citizen. I'm obviously

Colombian. I'm obviously super connected to Latin America and Brazil. So, I'm I'm a bit a bit of a of a mix. But I think it's really important that we kind of

own this stack, right? And and and we want to make sure that it's us doing it and and not another adversarial country.

And if I if I look at let's let's let's take a look at the AI stack for example.

Um so we go start with GPUs. Well maybe

we start with energy we continue with GPUs then we need cloud then we need telco. I mean at the end go through

telco. I mean at the end go through telco then we need applications right?

So let's focus on those. So energy um we were not fully integrated and we had a lot of players that were just exporting energy and it still happens right like China and Brazil are to the largest trading partners and it's Brazil's

largest trading partner. Um if you look at GPUs um I still think we're not doing enough and I think we need to make sure that countries in Latin America have

their own clusters but they could be built with American technology. Um then

if we look at telco it's alarming because you have um a lot of people know about this but almost 100% of the telco it's not 99 it's 100% of the telco

infrastructure in Mexico is always I don't love that right but there's not been much done to change that um then if you look at applications

um I want I want the models to be models that are culturally aligned uh I want open source models that that are that are also built by like say us. Um even

even applications and I think I think um companies in the US don't really understand this. U many of the greatest

understand this. U many of the greatest companies are in San Francisco and I open a Brazilian office and it's just like and a Mexico office and it's like

two people um super underinvested and I think that's a mistake in the long in the long term. So so I want to see way way more of that. So, so it's super

important for me and and I'm kind of organizing my life around around around that. And then in terms of of of of of

that. And then in terms of of of of of the boxes, I I I think uh we're we're in a pretty hot box right now. That might be the only time we put

now. That might be the only time we put you in a box.

I just I just I just never um really believe that uh uh you should be bounded by the orthodoxy of doing things. Um, I

I guess it come from my early beginnings of just being very free and and I think as as as I see more things and I learn, um, I also realize that I work the best

when I'm the most authentic and I work the best when I'm doing things with people that I enjoy, doing the things that I really enjoy and and working in a

way that makes sense for me. And

I I kind of organized all of my life to to be able to do that. And I find myself that I love to build. Um I found myself that I love to be very close to the teams. I love to be very close with my

engineers. I love to be selling

engineers. I love to be selling products. And I still that do that all

products. And I still that do that all the time. But I also find myself that I

the time. But I also find myself that I learn a lot by investing. I learn a lot by maybe understanding other companies and maybe even building other companies.

Um, and I I I think that if you're able to build it in a in such a way where knowledge flows, talent flows, even capital flows, and you keep it in a very

concentrated way, I think that's a that's a very powerful powerful way of operating. And took me a while to to to

operating. And took me a while to to to understand it and and to design it in a way that it fit me as best as as possible and and and I'm trying to

trying to do that.

Amazing. Um I think maybe a a good place to tie it together is uh all of us clearly believe that um there's a large opportunity for global AI companies to

be built out of LATAM and one of the things that you you know have clearly enjoyed doing is just mentoring the next generation of founders and so maybe as

you think about 20 25year-old Sabbass who's looking at the the sea of opportunities now what what do you have to the the the next gen of founders that are looking at the opportunity set that want to build a global AI company out of

Latam.

I think um pursuing problems that are interesting to you.

It's very important.

Authenticity is very important. um make

sure that whatever it is that you're building matters to you cuz building a company takes a long time and when you're doing it towards something that is not really true to you or authentic

to you it's just becomes really really hard. Um another one is is to run toward

hard. Um another one is is to run toward what's difficult. I think difficulties,

what's difficult. I think difficulties, hard problems are really important and I want to think I'm thinking more and more about defensibility.

Um, I'm sure you guys are as well, especially in AI. I mean, it's it's is the the pace of change is is is relentless and and and I think you need to have a even though it's hard when you're

starting a company early on, you need to have a point of view on on what is going to make you more defensible and and even if you don't have it yet, like how are you going to grow into that and how are

you going to lean into that? Um as well as growing your business, but but that that I think is is is is critical. Um

three, just be always a student and a learner. um and and not only learn about

learner. um and and not only learn about the next model, the next application, the next release, you know, the whatever

some lab is is offering now. Uh but also being a student of businesses, uh I think it's it's there's a lot of a lot of leverage by by by understanding uh

what some of the greatest entrepreneurs uh did. And lastly, just understand that

uh did. And lastly, just understand that the bar is really high and it's hard to build a great company at America, but that's the only way to build something

that matters. So, so you got to you got

that matters. So, so you got to you got to really understand that quality is incredibly important. And

incredibly important. And companies that don't embrace that quality and don't aspire to be also globally great are going to have a really, really tough time. And the good

news is that I think we have the the the raw materials for that to happen. So So

I'll I'll stay optimistic.

Amazing. Well, I guess to end, if you want to start a company, but you're not quite ready, come join Taco.

Yes.

Thank you. Save us. Pleasure. Thank you.