The Private Equity Veterinary Scam Making You Poorer and Killing Your Pets

Joe, thank you for doing this. I don't

think I've ever I probably have. I don't

remember. I don't think I've ever interviewed an advertiser. And um so I just want to be clear about why I'm doing this interview. So I called you several months ago to ask you if you wanted to advertise on our show because

you have a pet related company. I love

dogs. I've got a dog right there. And um

we had this conversation that was like so unbelievably interesting.

so interesting that I haven't stopped thinking about it. So that's I'm just want to be fully transparent about why uh I asked you to come. Thank you for for doing it. So here's here's my real

question.

Veterinary care, anyone who owns a dog or cat knows a lot about it. There's no

back stop. There's no health insurance, whatever. And you'll pay anything

whatever. And you'll pay anything [laughter] because >> it's your pet. It's

>> You're right. it's a member of your family and it's getting really really expensive. So, can you just give us the

expensive. So, can you just give us the overview? Why is it so expensive to say

overview? Why is it so expensive to say bring your dog in for his shots? Like,

how does this system work?

>> Yep.

>> Just to put a pin on that, veterinary care has grown 2x the rate of inflation.

So, we talk about inflation. Yeah. So,

the inflation is already high.

>> Yeah.

>> Veterinary inflation is double. It's

like 2x. That's how crazy it is. So

something that was $50 is literally $100 uh a year later.

>> What? Why?

>> There's a number of factors. One,

there's been a lot of private equity consolidation in the space. [laughter]

>> I could have guessed that.

>> Follow the money. So, you know, that just means less supply and the demand's only growing. That's one big factor. The

only growing. That's one big factor. The

other factor is because it's a cash pay industry, there's really no insurance, >> right? veterinarians and and you'll read

>> right? veterinarians and and you'll read this in trade magazines, they build their business on production, which is basically selling you more stuff.

>> Yes.

>> So, a third of their revenue is dependent on you getting a blood exam, getting X-ray, etc. And I think to be clear, like the rank and file

veterinarians are doing this only because they love pets. I think what's happening is it's

pets. I think what's happening is it's the few business owners and ultimately, like I said, private equity that are simply raising prices for something that

you're going to pay for no matter what.

>> Yes.

>> And it's scaring people. We So, at Dutch, my company, 50% of our customers say they haven't been to a vet in 3 years or more. Oh, I bet that's

>> people are scared that the moment they enter a vets's office, they have a $500 bill or more, >> literally. So, can let's just back up

>> literally. So, can let's just back up and go through these one by one. So, the

first is private equity. What? So,

private equity buys the model in general buys small businesses, independent businesses, >> links them together for efficiencies, for cost savings. Right? This is the

idea. This is what they tell you.

idea. This is what they tell you.

>> Yes. So, how many do you have any sense of how many vets are owned by private equity now?

>> I think it's like almost it's like a third to a half probably.

>> Wow. Okay. So, they've been scooping them up.

>> Oh, massively. In fact, this there's been there's like two major companies that are doing it that there was a a lawsuit uh that they're creating a

monopoly uh that pro that's go that's that was going around. So they'll go to owners of of >> brick and mortar mom and pops.

>> Yeah. Mom and pops. And they'll just they'll and they're doing this with dentists as well and HBAC and like basically every small business in America >> and and they'll buy just a whole bunch of them.

>> Exactly. Yeah.

>> And then become like regional.

>> Yep. And then they'll just raise the prices.

>> Does the care get better?

>> No. The care gets worse because you're no longer bringing the they're doing nothing. I don't want to like say

nothing. I don't want to like say nothing, but there's really no like modernization of equipment or faster care. It's the same thing. They just

care. It's the same thing. They just

literally raise the price.

>> Huh. Um, and when they >> It sucks. It's like super unfair.

>> I know. Well, I mean, I, you know, I'm willing to believe there are examples of private equity doing what it says it does, which is, you know, to come in and make the business better. better for its

customers, better for its owners, better for its employees. I've never seen that.

>> No, it's >> ever in any sector, but I I believe there must be some time where that happened.

>> My old veterinarian, I switched to and I asked for my um which is owned by private equity and I

asked for my medical records. It was 50 pages of PDF with scribble notes. I

mean, there's no way that there's any you could ever find what's there. So, I

don't believe I've not seen any sort of better care for pets as a result at all.

>> Yeah. Um, but greater returns for the investors and private for the >> Yep. totally.

>> Yep. totally.

>> So, um, okay. So, how do they can you be specific about how they raise the prices? You suggested there's an

prices? You suggested there's an incentive for veterinary offices to hike the price of annual exams and shots.

>> Annual exams, but they'll sell you more stuff, too. So, they'll say, "You know

stuff, too. So, they'll say, "You know what? Your dog needs teeth cleaning."

what? Your dog needs teeth cleaning."

And so, we need to put him under anesthesia. And that's going to be like

anesthesia. And that's going to be like a $5,000 bill for teeth cleaning, which >> $5,000?

>> Yes.

>> I've had a lot of dogs. Dozens and

dozens of dogs. I've got five at my house right now. And I don't think I've ever had a dog's teeth cleaned.

>> Yeah. Exactly.

>> And my dogs live a long time. 14.

>> Exactly. And the thing is, you're there and you feel horrible because you only want to do what's best for your pet, but what happens is they have a list of all

the services they want to sell to you and that's going to be one of them. Um,

and you feel horrible that you even have to think about the decision. Of course.

>> But you're and but it's like that's a lot of money and not I mean most people don't have $5,000 lying around the house.

>> Putting your dog under anesthesia is not a small thing. I mean dogs die. People

die under anesthesia. You're suspending

life in a living thing.

>> Totally. Yeah. So, I think what happens is it's the list of services that they'll try to sell you and make you feel horrible that you don't care about

your dog if you don't buy from this menu.

>> There's so much emotional leverage.

People are so intense about their animals.

>> Yes.

>> Not in my house. We have, you know, critical distance. [laughter]

critical distance. [laughter] >> No, but you know, you'd do anything.

You'd sell your car. I mean, I would.

And um so they they have a lot of power when they're upselling.

>> Yes, totally.

>> Do you it seems like the incentives would produce like actually bad outcomes where your dog or cat is getting treatments they don't need and that might be counterproductive.

>> Well, I think what happens is people just stop going to the vet at all. that

I mean that's what we've seen is that there's just a whole there's tens of millions of dogs that never go to the

veterinarian at Dutch. 50% don't go to the vet. Haven't been to the vet in

the vet. Haven't been to the vet in years and it's because they don't want to they don't want to feel bad for not buying extra services for their dog.

>> That's amazing. What about all the shot?

There are a lot of shots and they're very expensive.

>> Definitely. There's vaccines but even vaccines like you should I mean as we have at Dutch try to kind of so tele medicine can do vaccines but there's

definitely lowerc cost clinics that will do vaccines for $50 whereas in person it'll cost you $150 to $200 for the same thing >> for a shot.

>> Yes.

>> How why would it cost 200 bucks for a shot? Well, they'll say, well, I have to

shot? Well, they'll say, well, I have to pay for rent and I have to pay for stat.

I mean, they'll say there's like all this upkeep that that the shot, you know includes >> but it's bologoney. It's obvious. That

goes back to private equity raising prices and knowing the people there's some people who will still pay for it.

>> So, the profile of the vets that I've dealt with in the past 20 years have really really changed. It's a female industry now.

>> Yes.

>> Which I think is good. Just to be honest, I feel like there really a lot of dog lovers. Not all you get hard cases among vets, but most vets I know just really love animals.

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so what do they think of all of this?

So what's interesting is that when it comes to just Dutch and tele medicine, we get hundreds of applications from people who want to who want to do tele

medicine. And actually to this point

medicine. And actually to this point that it's female tele medicine allows them to have a work from home flexible schedule which they love.

>> Yeah.

>> The main industry association the AVMA has basically made these vets feel that if they do tele medicine the FBI will show up at their house.

>> What it has scared them to death from doing tele medicine [laughter] to death. And it's because it's again

to death. And it's because it's again it's comprised of these self-serving financially interested individuals who run the organization

but um they have completely scared veterinarians from doing tele medicine whatsoever.

>> Why would the FBI show up at a vets's house? [laughter]

house? [laughter] >> What they'll say and and again like I think this is why I want your listeners to know this. It's just so insane.

They will say that the federal law requires requires you to have a physical exam no matter what.

Like no matter if it's an opinion, it's a rash, it's a quick question. They'll

um say that the FDA website requires a physical exam, which it doesn't. But in

every conference, in every newsletter, they'll say, "Oh, well, we asked the FDA and they said that you need a physical

exam, so if you violate this, you might go to jail." That's what they'll say at every conference for years now. And

they'll vilify me and Dutch and they'll say, "This guy is going to hurt your dog. If there's tele medicine, millions

dog. If there's tele medicine, millions of dogs will die is the headline.

>> I'm trying to laugh. I mean, that's >> it's like obviously not true.

>> Emotional blackmail.

>> Yeah. So, one of the main >> buy this book or we'll shoot this dog. I

mean, it really Yeah. Millions of dogs would die.

They really say that.

>> Yeah. Well, again, so this is what they'll say at a conference.

What I've been doing now is I've been working with the ASPCA and a huge coalition of shelter u organizations because they're the ones

that get the brunt of it because now millions of dogs actually also get surrendered because their owners can't care for them >> because they can't afford vet.

>> Because they can't afford veterary care.

Yes.

>> Come on.

>> I'm telling you.

>> People abandon their dogs.

>> Yes.

Oh man, >> it I know. It gives me chills. It

sucks.

>> Yeah.

>> Um, so the only way this can change is at the state level >> and we've been working so in Florida, it

took us four legislative sessions to allow tele medicine and and all it does is all the law will say is that the veterinarian can use their judgment to make a decision.

>> But may I just ask you a foundational question? Why is the state involved in

question? Why is the state involved in what kind of medical care you give your dog?

>> Just because healthc care is regulated at the state level.

>> This is veterary care >> and that I mean and veterary >> but you have dominion over your dog. I

mean right?

>> That's so weird that they feel like some state legislator feels like he has more power over your dog who sleeps in your bed your dog

than you do. Like what is that?

that that's the system we live in. But

actually, I will tell you this. Most

legislators once we tell them that this is a law that you need to help us with, they're most of them are completely on board. They don't they're like, "We have

board. They don't they're like, "We have human healthcare and this is like a lot of them will say, I didn't even know this was an like you said, I didn't even know this was an

issue. This is dumb."

issue. This is dumb."

So, where it doesn't work is when the AVMA or a lot of these state uh lobby groups who have hundreds of

millions of dollars in annual budgets, if they've lined a politician's pocket, then that's where we will have trouble in those states.

>> Taking money from the veterinary lobby.

>> Yeah, [laughter] >> there are a lot of dark lobbies. We only

pay attention to a couple of them, but there are so many.

>> Yeah.

>> So, can you just quickly tell me how that works? So, the AVMA is the American

that works? So, the AVMA is the American Veterinary Medicine Association.

>> Yeah. Medical Association.

>> Medical Association.

What And why do they have an interest in preventing teleaalth for animals?

>> There's one reason that they'll say and then there's one reason that they'll say behind closed doors. So what they'll say in public is that they'll say tele

medicine is going to is going to harm dogs lead to millions of dogs dying. But

what they'll say at the hearing behind closed doors, it's purely financial.

They think that it's an either or choice that if you have tele medicine, people will no longer go to the vet and their brickandmortar business is going to die.

That's not true.

>> Oh, so they're just preserving the monopoly. Yeah, they're preserve

monopoly. Yeah, they're preserve monopoly.

>> It's just like always, most regulation exists to preserve existing monopolies.

>> Yes, exactly.

>> That's true in tech. It's true in manufacturing. It's true in the nicotine

manufacturing. It's true in the nicotine business. It's true in veterinary care.

business. It's true in veterinary care.

Wow.

>> I should have known that. Duh.

[laughter] Right. Millions of dogs will die.

>> Like, who has died? No one.

>> Well, so if people aren't even bringing their dogs to the vet because it's too expensive, how is that good?

>> Exactly. Exactly. get dogs are getting zero care. And you will have these

zero care. And you will have these people say that they will prefer that than they'll they'll prefer the status quo. The the industry association will

quo. The the industry association will say they'll prefer the status quo than allow tele medicine. And by the way, it's not an eitheror choice. It's not

like, oh, I have a video call and now I no longer get vaccines at the vet. you know, like we have again human

vet. you know, like we have again human health care, >> we still go to our brick and mortar annual checkup, whatever. And then if we have a issue at night, we we don't have

to go.

>> If you got porcupine quills in your dog's throat or, you know, cuts his leg on barb wire, you have to go to to a surgeon.

>> That's right. But if he has a rash that and you just want to know like is it like what is this? Why do you have to go to urgent care when you can just show

again the dogs in the comfort of their home and you use your phone and show a video of their paw, >> right?

>> Like why do you have to drag that in?

>> And that's right. And for example, we get porcupine quills on our dogs all the time, a lot. And I wish I could say my dogs are smart enough not to try and eat porcupines, but they're not. And every

year I have to take the quills out, which is takes like four hours. But I do it myself because well, because I know how, but also because my dogs don't like to go to the vet at all. And it smells

like death and they can smell it.

>> Yep. Mine do too.

>> Dogs are euthanized there. They know

that. And um so we do everything we can to prevent physical visits because it the dogs are panicked. And I think most people with dogs know this. Yes. And I

think cats feel the same way.

>> Cats are even worse. Yes,

>> because to corral a cat [laughter] >> difficult difficult >> difficult. So anything as someone if you

>> difficult. So anything as someone if you love animals you want to you want care for them of course but you want to keep them out of the physical space if you can.

>> Yep. They're in the comfort of their home.

>> Exactly. Um, one of the things we see a lot is behavior and anxiety cases. And

that's even more so why they should be treated from home because the dog is in their natural environment.

>> Exactly.

>> You're only making their situation worse by forcing them to this place they don't like. And then a lot of the behavior

like. And then a lot of the behavior modification that happens, tele medicine is perfect for that because you can have these regular conversations

and for a fraction of the price. Just to

give you context, by the way, so Dutch, it's it's a less than $100 for a year of care. If you went every month, you'd pay

care. If you went every month, you'd pay a hundred bucks a month. You'd pay like over $1,000 to treat your dog. Uh, and

often times when you have anxiety, you kind of need to have those regular check-ins.

And we had a story recently of of this guy who had an aggressive dog. He's been

on Dutch for 2 years and the dog went from crazy aggressive to now he has two buddies. Like his life has changed.

buddies. Like his life has changed.

>> Yes. And there's no way in the world this uh owner could have had the money or the time if Dutch wasn't around to change this dog's life.

>> Amazing. Yeah. And if you have a dog who bites, I've had a few. Uh it's very disruptive. And you know, the dog can

disruptive. And you know, the dog can get killed, by the way. You know, dogs like that either get put down by the state or can be killed in a fight, whatever. You don't want that at all.

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>> So, how does it work exactly? I don't

understand it the terms. So, it's a hundred bucks. Like, tell me the how it

hundred bucks. Like, tell me the how it works. What's the alternative?

works. What's the alternative?

>> So, with Dutch, you go to Dutch.com, you sign up, it's a membership service, it's $100 for a year of care. So, for a

year, you can call a vet for up to five pets. And we have vets available same

pets. And we have vets available same day. So, you know, most of appointments,

day. So, you know, most of appointments, by the way, are happening at night when the even if you have a vet, the vets's closed.

>> Yeah.

>> And so, you have a video call. Most

calls happen on people's phones.

You talk to a a local vet in your state and they'll, you know, you're talking to a professional and so they'll diag.

>> You're talking to a veterinarian.

>> Yeah. You're talking to a You'll always talk to a veterinarian, a human being.

And 90% of the time, and we've been doing this now for 5 years, 90% of the time they're able to address the issue uh over video.

>> Amazing. And so does that include vaccines or what does that include?

>> It includes the cost. So vaccines you have to do in person and we'll recommend a local clinic if that's what you need.

Uh but if you if you need medication, we have pharmacy partners who can ship that to you. You can also go to a pharmacy of

to you. You can also go to a pharmacy of your choice. We don't care.

your choice. We don't care.

>> Um but it includes kind of any of the follow-up messages, chats with a vet, so you don't feel like you're nickel and dimed if I have another question or if I have to follow up a week later.

Um the other thing that's cool about digital first is that everything is documented. So we know automatically

documented. So we know automatically when we should follow up for each condition or we know that a veterinarian

needs to respond like we have um goals a veterary needs to respond within a matter of hours um back to the patient if there's a message during the business

day. So we can also like really monitor

day. So we can also like really monitor quality metrics to make sure that customers are having a good experience.

>> Is this nationwide?

It's nationwide, but there are about 20 states that don't allow tele medicine >> for animals.

>> For animals. Yeah.

>> What? Really?

>> Yep.

>> Because of lobbying by >> order. Exactly. So that's why

>> order. Exactly. So that's why >> big states.

>> Any of the big states.

Um some of the biggest ones like Texas, which is crazy because California allows it, but Texas does not. And uh we

actually had a huge bill this year that literally got killed um by the AVMA and and it's all because of money.

>> That's wild.

>> Yep.

>> So it's you are not allowed to do So is there like an underground tellaalth?

Like why don't you just ignore the law and do it anyway?

Sorry.

>> Kind of. Well, so there's actually on in Texas there's a a court case that is now at the Supreme Court where the veterinarian said, "Well, I'm it's

freedom of speech." Yeah.

>> I'm just like telling people like how their pets, you know, um this is my freedom of speech. So, the fifth circuit, which is Texas, Louisiana,

Missouri, has ruled in his favor, but the attorney general is has filed this um as an appeal at the Supreme Court currently.

>> Seriously?

>> Yeah. What's his name? Greg.

Forget his name.

>> That's so interesting.

>> He's running for Senate. So, right now it is illegal for anyone in Texas to call a vet on the phone and just get healthcare on the phone.

>> Yep.

According to them, now there's always So, there's two paths in Texas. There's

any state allows e has an emergency provision if it's a life or death situation.

And then in Texas again the there's this fifth circuit decision that's currently so there's like there's sort of this competing situation in Texas where on

the one hand the fifth circuit says tele medicine is allowed but the state regulations still say that it's not allowed. I'm pretty sure I could just

allowed. I'm pretty sure I could just call up and get like very serious drugs prescribed through teleaalth as an adult like very ser fully addictive

benzoazipines for example you can die from going off them I mean this is like way more >> way more addictive than heroin you can't die going off heroin you can die going off Xanax so >> it's all about the money

>> but that's totally fine to get that from teleaalth >> yes >> or empetamines no problem it's like tijana you know you get whatever you want now. But your dog can't get

want now. But your dog can't get treatment. Yeah,

treatment. Yeah, >> that's not it's it's definitely unfair.

>> Well, it's deranged.

Um, is that changing? Are you making progress?

>> We're making good progress. So, we've

changed the laws in Florida, Arizona, Ohio, in a number of states, and um this upcoming legislative session, we're lobbying in 12 different states. But

definitely, there's a lot of states. I'm

sure your listeners live in a lot of those states. And uh one of the things

those states. And uh one of the things we did is we launched this website called savepuppies.com.

called savepuppies.com.

[laughter] >> And if you go to safeepies.com, >> I love your marketing. [laughter] Save I mean, if they're saying millions of dogs will die, you should, you know, you're fighting back with safeepies.com.

>> That wasn't taken.

>> I know, right? [laughter] Yeah, it wasn't taken. And so, you know, you can

wasn't taken. And so, you know, you can go there and uh send a letter to your local legislator. That's the only way

local legislator. That's the only way that things will change is at the grassroots level because we don't have the crazy budget that these trade groups have.

>> Can I ask you what does the AVMA think of private equity scooping up all the independent businesses?

>> They're associate I think they're associated with it.

>> They've got no problem with that.

>> I don't think so. prices going up, care declining that they're totally fine with that.

>> They're against options.

>> What? So, I think again there's two things what they'll say publicly versus what happens behind closed doors. And

I've read art I mean it's like we live in two different worlds because what they'll say is like for example one reason prices are going up is there's

also massive vet shortages >> because the veterary profession has one of the biggest dropout rates Oh yeah of anyone

>> and they'll say and this is just it's this is just factually like true if you follow u BLS Bureau of Labor statistics,

but they'll say there's no shortage or you'll say no prices are going up and there's like data that shows that they'll say no prices are not going up.

So, a lot of times when you talk to them, the surveys they put out make are completely nonsensical,

>> right? And there's this bottleneck in

>> right? And there's this bottleneck in veterinary school.

>> Totally. So, that's another thing. the

AVMA could it's really weird in this industry and I think I just again I'm here because like you shine a light on things and I think a lot of people >> well I care about this topic because I

think the relationship between people and animals is just so essential.

>> I know it sucks what they're doing. So they the AVMA controls accreditation for veterary

colleges.

Okay. Like this happens in no other like law schools don't have a trade association decide like who gets to have a law school.

>> Yeah. In this industry the AVMA controls what is deemed a vet school and they have chokehold that completely.

>> So private equity decides whether you get to be a vet or not. I mean, in effect, if private equity is the single biggest player in this industry, that's bonkers. Why?

that's bonkers. Why?

>> I mean, it goes back to money. It goes

back to when you have less supply, you can charge more and because people are willing to pay more for it.

>> So, they have an incentive to reduce the number of new veterinarians coming out of school every year.

It's like I hate to draw that line, but I think that's what >> Well, if it's about money, then it's supply and demand because that's that's what the market is. And so the fewer vets you have, the higher the prices.

>> Yeah. It it like makes I've you know, again, I'm I think I'm a curious person and I try to like understand like could it be something

else? Is there another reason? Like why

else? Is there another reason? Like why

would this if you have high attrition, you have prices going up, you would think that the way to solve that is to have more veterinarians, >> of course.

>> And that's just not what they're doing.

They've like literally I at this point know several vet schools that have just stopped development, you know, gave up because the AVMA basically told them

that they're not going to get a license.

>> I'm not sure. I'm not sure >> because there are very relatively few colleges that turn out veterinarians.

>> Oh, there's totally few. Like just think I can tell you this statistic. There's

about one veterinarian for every 3,000 pets in America. For context, the ratio

in human healthcare is 1 to 20.

>> No way. the disparity is so huge and the amount of vet schools is so little. Like

we could we could have a you know dozens of vet schools pop up and it would still maybe not be enough in the next decade.

And like I said, this trade organization is refusing to launch any new schools.

>> Well, I mean that's a cartel that's cartel behavior.

>> It's very much cartel behavior. And

what's crazy is I feel like then this gaslighting happens where I'm painted as the bad guy and they'll say this guy Joe or Dutch, you know, he's just

self-interested. He just want, you know,

self-interested. He just want, you know, he's the one that wants your money. And

I'm like, how is that possible when I'm like reducing the cost? [laughter]

>> Like it doesn't make sense.

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>> Why did you get into this?

>> Couple reasons. So, prior to Dutch, I was one of the co-founders of hims and hers. And so, I helped start that tele

hers. And so, I helped start that tele medicine journey. Um, and I would say if

medicine journey. Um, and I would say if we back it up even more, we'd have to go back to my experience coming to America

and just always as an immigrant and having to figure things out when we my family and I immigrated from the Soviet Union.

>> Where?

>> Um, to the Bay Area.

>> No, but where in the Soviet Union? from

Usbekistsan. From

>> Usbekiststan, >> former uh current separate country of the Soviet.

>> Yeah. But then a Soviet republic.

>> Yep. We

>> What was Usbekistsan like?

>> You know, it's um it's very it's Muslim majority, but it I would say secular and

um everyone got along I thought quite well. Um, and we're Jewish. And I

well. Um, and we're Jewish. And I

actually didn't even know Jews and Muslims are supposed to not get along when I we went to each other's weddings.

There's lots of shared history and similarity.

>> Um, >> that's been true. By the way, I just say factually that has been true in various parts of the world over time. You know,

not always of course huge problems, but then other places there are no problems. >> Mhm.

>> And that was one of them.

>> Yeah. So it was, you know, we we, you know, I mean, I I I had a good childhood.

We left everything uh behind because my dad was uh almost thrown into a labor camp for having an illegal book, which is just like a regular I'm sure it's probably maybe a book on your shelf.

>> What book?

>> It's called Exodus by Leon Urus.

>> No way. Yeah.

>> And it's just a book in the ' 70s. Yeah.

>> Fighting for freedom. I think it's a concept they didn't want you to know about.

>> Yeah.

>> And we fled. We fled with I had a hundred bucks >> uh and a red suitcase and we left. Lived in Italy in a refugee

camp for several months. Eventually got

political asylum to come to the United States and then, you know, lived in low-income housing for a long time >> in the Bay Area. in the Bay Area.

>> What was that like?

>> A couple things. First,

my dad definitely told us that we have to assimilate, that we have to learn the language. He himself, he was a civil

language. He himself, he was a civil engineer. And I saw him at first working

engineer. And I saw him at first working flea markets just doing manual labor.

And I think it showed me that he would do anything for his family to have a meal on the table. And I think later in life it showed me, you know, no one's too good to take out the garbage.

>> That's right. That is exactly right.

>> And uh and just the value of a dollar. I

still I think >> Yeah. I want to make sure my kids have

>> Yeah. I want to make sure my kids have that. But I still think and I think back

that. But I still think and I think back to this business. I think that's why when I see things that are so expensive for people, I feel it in my bones

because I still know what it's like to not have any money to make difficult decisions um when you only have so many dollars every month.

>> What did your dad wind up doing?

>> He ended up going back to being an engineer.

>> Wow. He um got trained um education and then he found a mentor who took him under his wing um and he became an engineer again.

>> Amazing.

>> Yep. They

really Yeah. So, in so many ways, they they inspired me.

And with that said, there's not much that they knew about America. And so, I I knew that they

America. And so, I I knew that they would love me, but a lot of times I had to figure everything out for myself. I

went to college. I paid for college myself. And I think all of these things

myself. And I think all of these things taught me to be a survivor. Taught me to make something out of nothing. Um, and

kind of that's that's led me that led me to hymns and and ultimately that led me to Dutch.

>> Were were you an animal person?

>> We had animals. So in the Soviet Union, tons of animals. Um, so I always definitely grew up with animals. Uh,

German Shepherd, >> great dogs.

>> Had a black cat.

Um, so we had animals up until I was 10 and then we lived in apartment in tiny tiny apartments and so then we got finally when I had a family and we had a

house we got so that's when we got my a corgi and that's kind of how it all happened because I was coming off hymns.

It was starting to be a big company. I

always like smaller companies and when I can actually still create something.

>> Yes.

>> And then we got a corgi and started to see the vet bills and then the kicker was he got into a trail mix and then we had a $2,000 vet bill.

>> Trail mix?

>> Yeah. Like trail mix had like couple M&M's in it.

>> Oh yeah.

>> And they're supposed to eat chocolate.

>> Not supposed to eat M&M's. Yeah.

>> They like them though.

>> Yeah. I like them.

>> It does. Right.

>> And >> did he get sick?

>> No. But the thing is, and that's the thing is then I was talking to a vetinarian friend and he said like he really didn't have to do he

didn't have to like pump his stomach for like the three M&M's that he ate. And I

So then that's kind of how I started to look around like are there any like could I have done something else?

>> Did Did you pump his stomach?

>> Yes. So, can I just pause and say I love how even if they're misguided, I love how devoted dog owners are to their dogs and cats. I mean, they just like they'll

and cats. I mean, they just like they'll do anything.

>> Yeah. I'll do anything.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. I'll do anything.

and but it and and so I think that's when I realized there's really no like other option when it comes to there's no tele medicine options that I saw

>> and it and it goes back to that a lot of times it has to do with the laws but look I'm the guy who I figured when him started it was actually a similar

situation back five years ago tele medicine wasn't legal on the human side either like we forget that cuz it's now so common

place, but it was also the same thing.

And I and I helped change those laws back then. I think that's kind of why

back then. I think that's kind of why some of these groups are scared of me is because this guy [laughter] comes from a place where like he has nothing to lose. He's only doing I mean

also I think it's because I'm doing the right thing. I think they don't like

right thing. I think they don't like that. And I've done it before. So I

that. And I've done it before. So I

think that kind of gives me more confidence that I can do it again.

>> Uh and I don't think that's because before this >> so be before Dutch came on the scene what the shelter groups for example that wanted tele medicine what they were

doing is talking to the state veterary boards because that's how the that's a simpler way that this could all change.

If the veterary board at the state they could just say if you want to do tele medicine do tele medicine if it's medically appropriate.

>> Yeah >> it could be as simple as that. And so

for over 10 years they were having these conversations and so that's when I got here and I'm like this is doing nothing so we got to go the legislative route.

>> It's so revealing however I mean again I think there probably good people with good motives up and down the line. There

always are in these systems, but the system itself is so distorted that they don't put the welfare of animals as the top goal. Like that always has to be the

top goal. Like that always has to be the point, right? What's if if you're a

point, right? What's if if you're a veterinary board, the health of animals, that's why you exist.

>> Totally.

>> Right. Totally. But it doesn't seem like they're thinking that way.

>> Well, again, what they'll say is we are thinking of the pets. We think millions of dogs will die with tele medicine.

>> How will that happen?

They'll well let me tell you of some of these examples I've seen they'll say like I'll say the example I used anxiety like I'll say isn't that great for tele

medicine the dog is in the comfort of their home and you can shoot they'll say well well what if the dog ate a nail you know if the dog ate a nail I've been in

hearings where this example has happened >> well well if the dog ate a nail look maybe he's barking cuz he ate a nail and and He's in pain cuz he ate a nail. And

so that's why we shouldn't have. It's

like, are there nails around your house?

Like why um why are we going to use this crazy madeup example to deny millions of dogs from having this opportunity to use tele medicine?

>> Sure. And if your dog ate a nail, there's still no good reason why you shouldn't start with tele medicine.

>> Exactly. Yeah. Have that initial call.

Yeah. Yeah. The vet will walk you through it and then you'll know, do I go to ER or not. Exactly. It's not It doesn't have to be an either or.

>> I We had a family dog at a pin recently.

>> Uh a a needle, you know, a sewing needle and um >> you know, obviously that's a brick and mortar situation.

>> Yes.

>> Um the dog passed it without any problems, which is kind the the canine digestive tract is a wonder.

>> Wow. [laughter] That's

>> all kinds of things. mops, pine cones, sewing needles emerge from it. But um

that it still would have been worth calling initially. Like why not?

calling initially. Like why not?

>> Totally. Why not? It takes before Dutch.

Um there's a a poison hotline that's like $75 just for that first call.

>> Yes.

>> And you don't even know who who you're going to get. And that's what people do because again if that's what you need to do that's what you'll do.

>> But there's definitely ways to talk to a human being veterinarian very quickly even that for much less and definitely

much less than having to spend $1,000 in ER. I had a case where my dog I thought

ER. I had a case where my dog I thought he was having a seizure and I really I mean I really freaked out and I got on

Dutch and the vet says he's doing uh reverse sneezing.

>> Reverse sneezing.

>> Reverse sneezing. I never heard of that in my life.

>> And she showed me videos of reverse sneezing and it looked exactly like what he was going through. And like I said, I

was literally about to grab him, drive to ER, and she totally calmed me down and and made me realize it was completely >> totally right. That's Oh, what a great

example. We just had a dog We've had a

example. We just had a dog We've had a dog eat marijuana in the park. We had a dog um eat hallucinogenic mushrooms in the woods. Totally. The dog has been

the woods. Totally. The dog has been tripping ever since. That was four years ago. The dog is still seeing trails. Um

ago. The dog is still seeing trails. Um

wonderful dog. woke up with a dog this morning. Um, but in both cases,

morning. Um, but in both cases, um, there really was no treatment at all. And in both cases, those dogs were

all. And in both cases, those dogs were bundled up and taken to the vet, which did not I'm not I love the vet. I'm not

against the vet to be clear, but it didn't help at all because it's just remedy, >> right? There's a time and a place for

>> right? There's a time and a place for everything. And I think tele medicine is

everything. And I think tele medicine is just a part of the overall experience. I

don't think anyone's going to say it needs to replace the and and and it won't happen because it hasn't happened in human care, but I think it's another

option for people to get a piece of mind and to have an option that's way more affordable and we are seeing so many dogs like I said being given up or

people who are saying I don't think I can have a dog in my life. That sucks.

>> Well, that's a tragedy. Especially

people with children need to have dogs.

I think >> totally it's been yeah for us my kids our little Eddie the corgi they love him so much and it's >> it's the best

>> can I also say it's really good for im your immune system to be around dogs >> yeah I think I've seen studies that show that yeah >> when our first child who's 31 came home

from the hospital after being born of our dogs our spananiel jumped up and licked the dog licked the child in the mouth child's never been sick. That's just a fact.

>> Yeah, I think it definitely I feel like I've seen stuff that show Yeah. that you

get that immunity. I'm pretty sure.

>> We've always since I was born, we've always my family's always been committed to that. Like you got to have a lot of

to that. Like you got to have a lot of dogs around and you stay healthy and everyone's been really healthy. I think

that matters. Um, so again, I feel a little weird interviewing you because you've advertised in our show and and all that, but I just I just felt it so strongly. I feel like this is such a

strongly. I feel like this is such a good thing and I think there are a lot of viewers of this who would agree and so I just it was sincere. I really

>> Thank you. Well, I think when you first called me >> it was, hey, I like dogs. This makes

sense. And I think I already I was like, Tucker's got to know this conspiracy that's happening >> because it's such bologoney and it's so

unfair and so few people kind of like I said know how monopolistic it is. And I

thought that your listeners and you could help us because I think we're the Goliath in this fight or the right with

the David in this fight and it needs people to understand how crazy the situation is for both for veterinarians

who like I said feel scared to do tele medicine as well as for pet owners who can't afford it and it all has to do with these trade associations who are

keeping and using their monopoly power to change to keep the laws from changing. So I think that whole part you

changing. So I think that whole part you had no idea was going on.

>> I had literally no idea and again for us at this age you know I I don't it's the cost is not the main barrier for us. The barrier is the dogs.

It's just so much suffering for the dogs >> to go to the vet. And sometimes there's no choice. And I get it. But if we can

no choice. And I get it. But if we can avoid that, we would just be so thankful to avoid it.

>> And your dogs.

>> So it's dutch.com.

>> Yep. dutch.

>> Well, I'm I'm sure I'll be attacked for insider dealing, but it's not. I think

you advertised with us no matter what, but I just wanted you to be able to say all of that at length, so I'm grateful that you did.

>> Thank you. Yes,

>> Joe Spectre. Thank you. Thank you.

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