The Producer Role Breakdown + Why Enthusiasm Always Wins

In reality, as much as we try to plan, things just happen in the moment. You

don't know, especially in relationship shows, you don't know who's going to connect. You don't know who's going to

connect. You don't know who's going to be dating who. A lot of competition reality, you can prepare and prepare, but you don't know necessarily what's going to happen, which makes it so fun.

Hi, I'm Maline Cuttingham and this is the Unscripted Files where I bring you candid conversations with the minds behind your favorite form of entertainment. Today I have an Emmy

entertainment. Today I have an Emmy award-winning producer on the podcast.

We met a couple years ago, became good friends. She's an incredible producer

friends. She's an incredible producer who has a lot of roots in factual doc lifestyle sports, but also talks a lot about her first foray into a big format

show, what that transition was like. We

also get into mentorship, how to get opportunities when she wanted to jump into something different. How did she get that? She is a lecturer teaching

get that? She is a lecturer teaching unscripted. We talk about what she

unscripted. We talk about what she teaches, what she looks for in students, and how she remains a student herself every day. So, here's my chat with

every day. So, here's my chat with producer Pam Glennon.

Pam, welcome to the Unscripted Files.

How are you? Hi. Hey, thanks for having me on. Good to see you.

me on. Good to see you.

Good to see you. It's been a little bit.

We've been at Real Screen. Was it We talked New Orleans or was it Austin that we met? It was New Orleans. Okay.

we met? It was New Orleans. Okay.

Mhm.

Yes, we did.

It was It was a couple years ago cuz right around that time is when uh my mom, your dad came out on HBO Max, right? That was a show that you got to

right? That was a show that you got to be a part of. Really fun format, by the way. Yes. Yes. Thank you. that show. It

way. Yes. Yes. Thank you. that show. It

was the most wild, fun, exhausting experience. I think one of out of all

experience. I think one of out of all the projects I've worked on, um, it was really, really fun and just a really creative, unique idea. So, definitely a lot of work, but it was fun to produce

for sure. It's such a fun format and I

for sure. It's such a fun format and I was telling you earlier, I feel like it paved the way for a lot of these new formats we're seeing where older generations are finding love and dating.

But it was the first big relationship dating format show you were a part of because traditionally you were sort of in commercial and sports and travel. So

talk to me about how that transition was for you and what were the biggest lessons that you learned.

Yes. Yes. So this was a unique and massive show and I do think it was a little bit of a first of its kind. We

only did one season, but then it actually was modified a little bit and then ITV went on to produce it in the UK. So they did a season 1 and two, I

UK. So they did a season 1 and two, I think 2023 and 24. So the origins of the show is actually pretty amazing. It was

Haley Daniels and Greg Daniels. Um, so

father and daughter duo that came up with this concept and you know so fun the partners on board and really were the creators of the show and then for

those of you who don't know Greg Daniels is you know one of the most prominent funniest comedic you know sitcom

writers and and creators out there. He

did Parks and Wreck. He did the US Office version. Uh this was an idea that

Office version. Uh this was an idea that I believe his daughter came up with him.

So it was a fun experience for them to to be able to work on this show together. Uh yeah, it's really

together. Uh yeah, it's really interesting. And then I got on the show,

interesting. And then I got on the show, going back to your original question, because I actually had just done the mentorship program through the producers

guild of America, I think the year before, and I did it with Sam Dean, who was one of the original showrunners on Love is Blind. She had done a lot with

HBO Max as a showrunner in the dating relationship reality world. She, you

know, was one of the the showrunner for Fboy Island. She did 12 Dates of

Fboy Island. She did 12 Dates of Christmas. So that was really her bread

Christmas. So that was really her bread and butter and she was already working with them. So they paired her up with

with them. So they paired her up with the Daniels. I don't know the exact

the Daniels. I don't know the exact order. You'd have to how it all came

order. You'd have to how it all came about. You'd have to ask them. You know,

about. You'd have to ask them. You know,

ITV was the produ America was the production company in essence. So there

was a lot of people involved. And then

she had a few collaborators that she had worked on uh successfully. Gani and

Vanessa who were co-e but I was really because we had this great relationship and um I was really interested in doing kind of bigger budget TV and unscripted

because where I came from I did a lot of documentary television factual magazine style travel shows where you know some of them I created and show ran some of

them I was producer field producer so I had a lot of different roles but I hadn't done anything that was this massive reality, big budget reality I'll call it. So, this was a new experience, but I

it. So, this was a new experience, but I was brought on. I think I was one of the first producers to be brought on, which was really amazing for me because I kind

of came I worked a little bit with Nitro Circus. And if you're not familiar with

Circus. And if you're not familiar with them, I am familiar. I grew up with two brothers. I am so familiar. I haven't

brothers. I am so familiar. I haven't

heard that name in a long time.

Yes. Yes. So we had done a lot of prank style type of things and our programming with them. So I had a little bit of

with them. So I had a little bit of background in this comedic prank kind of reality style television. So I was brought in really to help with the

creative. So on the show itself, if you

creative. So on the show itself, if you haven't seen it, it is about, you know, these college age kind of younger adults setting up their parents, their single

parents to find love and date. And

they're in their kind of late 40s to feast age range. And basically the college age kids go into one house which is, you know, there's remote cameras and

everything's rigged up and they go in there and then it's revealed to them that they actually have access to view certain scenes from the parents' house

who's in a house actually a half mile down the road. So, there's a lot that went behind this backstory and the um the young adults who are watching their parents, they actually have a hand in

what happens.

So, it's a little bit of this like interactive component that you see during the show. So, they're I wouldn't say prank because it's we called them

medals, not like metal like Olympic gold medal, but like meddling in something.

When I say they, we had all these medals basically lined up and ready to execute.

And then through different challenges, the kids, I'll just call them kids, the kids' house basically would be able to use a metal or set up their parents on a

date and have some sort of control on what happened in the parents house. So

the parents house, you know, had no idea. They knew that they were in this

idea. They knew that they were in this reality show to find love. They didn't

know their kids were watching. And you

can see there's a lot of comedy that can come from this. So, um, yeah, it's really show it's a really brilliant format and it's like like letting the

kids essentially play reality TV producer.

It's giving like a little perfect match, but that generational play I think is so interesting. Watching your parents find

interesting. Watching your parents find love is like both can be very endearing and also very icky. And I think ju just I don't know doubling down on all those

emotions and knowing that it came from a fatherdaughter team absolutely makes it a million times better. I love that. So

you mentioned you know challenge producing and there's so many different roles on these sets very different from the doc world or factual. There's a lot of different roles. Uh a producer is not

just a producer like everyone has something specific. I'd love to break

something specific. I'd love to break down different producer roles with you because I've never actually done that on this show. I think it'd be helpful for

this show. I think it'd be helpful for people who were getting into the industry. Do you want to be out in the

industry. Do you want to be out in the field? Do you want to be behind the

field? Do you want to be behind the desk? Do you just want to handle

desk? Do you just want to handle creative? Like I think breaking down

creative? Like I think breaking down sort of different producer roles would be really beneficial. Uh because we've never done it before and I think you're the perfect person. So let's break it

down, shall we?

Yeah, let's do it. And yeah, so every it's so wild because in unscripted even within reality the way that the show is

structured and the roles of the producer can change from dating reality to you know this doc reality to a travel show.

So even within unscripted and across genres the roles of the producer can change a lot. So, I'll talk a little bit about my mom, your dad since we're already talking about it and my role on

that a little bit more and how it kind of broke down. So, um, and this is kind of the extreme end because you have to think when I talked about the two houses, you have to almost think that this was two reality shows being filmed at the same time.

Totally.

So, we had a massive, massive crew and a lot of different producers doing a lot of different things. So, I would say obviously, you know, starting at the top, you know, you're going to have your

creators, your executive producers, your network execs, your studio execs, right?

And then you're going to kind of have your showrunner. So, you know, that

your showrunner. So, you know, that person that is the executive producer that's running the story across the se season. And I would say the the

season. And I would say the the day-to-day in reality creative decisions that's not necessarily the same in scripted, but we're talking unscripted here, so I won't get into that. We

basically had the showrunner who was in charge of everything as a whole. They're

at 30,000 ft. They're in charge of making sure this show achieves the creative outcome that we want. They're

the face of the show. They're making all the creative decisions. They're really

kind of this mastermind, the director and we had a control room because we had remote cameras. We're switching between

remote cameras. We're switching between cameras. We had two houses and I not to

cameras. We had two houses and I not to say that this was shot live by any means, but we did have this control room and the director was in charge of more the cameras. And that's similar to

the cameras. And that's similar to narrative. Yep.

narrative. Yep.

Right. Where you have, you know, film standalone. you don't have this these

standalone. you don't have this these huge story engines and and driving arcs across hours and hours that you're producing, right? So, the director is

producing, right? So, the director is more of that creative lead. The scripts

are in and that's that. You're not

coming up with multiple scripts like you would in in narrative TV. Um, and the same thing. So, we had that director

same thing. So, we had that director role that was in charge of the visuals, in charge of basically the DP and their vision and the cameras and placements

and basically the control room, right?

From the technical and visual standpoint and how does the visual support what we're trying to do creatively. We had

the showrunner and then beneath the showrunner, we had two EPs. And for this one, I don't know if necessarily every show has two APs, but we had two co-Ps

because this was a massive project. And

one of our EPs, Vanessa, she is amazing in the field. She knows how to get any type of reaction from the talent and she was really in charge of what was

happening on the ground from the cast.

And then we had another EP, Gani, that was she was a little bit more storybased with the writing and she was in touch with the network and all the major

stakeholders, the studio execs, you know, the Daniels and kind of came at it from that standpoint. And then you have to think we had two houses too. So we

had two shows going on. And then from there, if I'm making my I'll have to I don't have an animation or slide. Yeah,

my tree. So we had the two co-e and then for this show we had three different and this is all kind of story based and practical. So we had three kind of

practical. So we had three kind of different departments. So we had the

different departments. So we had the control room supervising producer and then we had producers underneath that that was really monitoring what was happening in the moment. There's

basically story producers um and story editors that were working in the control room. And then we had

room. And then we had um the segment team, which I basically ended up being in the segment team. I

wasn't technically called the segment producer because my role was a little outside of the box as kind of a general producer, but I kind of fit into the segment team bucket, and I'll get into

that in a minute. And then we had, you know, a challenge producer. other shows

that are heavy challenge focused might have a challenge department but we kind of all were part of segment team and then we had field producers so there's a

supervising producer and then they had their field producers underneath them so we kind of had these three spokes and then there's APs underneath them and then I also don't want to forget

logistics so your line producers your EIC they're a whole other branch you know adjacent They're not as concerned with what's

happening storywise, but they are the ones that are, you know, helping feed everybody with massive catering, help with transportation, with cast. So, we

actually worked a lot with, you know, the line producing team, the production managers, coordinators, and assistants because as as the segment team, we had

to work, we needed extra help with getting some of this stuff. We had a couple producers and a couple a uh APS associate producers on our team. And

this is just kind of one example of one show, but as segment producers, and this can be different things for different genres and shows, but these medals or

these pranks, we had to work with the art department team and props and special effects to prepare all these because in the control room, they didn't

necessarily know what order we were going to do things. We had to cast. We

had a kind of an improv comic that we brought in as it's kind of the sub character that would go in. He was the butler in the show, but he was the one that was executing like spilling a drink

and, you know, getting, you know, just kind of we needed somebody to help execute. So, he was brought in as a cast

execute. So, he was brought in as a cast member. And then some of the stuff was

member. And then some of the stuff was special effects. We also were in charge

special effects. We also were in charge of the dates. We were in charge of the challenges that were happening in the kids' house. anything outside. So, a lot

kids' house. anything outside. So, a lot of outside dates, any sort of parties or restaurants or anything like that, we were helping to find these deals,

working with product placement team as well. Anything that you saw on camera,

well. Anything that you saw on camera, whether it was the they were cooking a dinner, that had to have been planned.

The food had to be shopped, all that stuff happened. Any car that you would

stuff happened. Any car that you would see, making sure that we had the right cars. And so we kind of talked to

cars. And so we kind of talked to everybody. It was a massive undertaking.

everybody. It was a massive undertaking.

So it was a really wild and so when I say wild, fun and exhausting, that was a segment team cuz I feel like not to take, you know, too much credit, but I

feel like we were kind of this ecosystem that touched all these different departments and that allowed, you know, the field producers to do their things and be asking the questions and

interacting with cast and doing, you know, those confessional interviews. And

then uh it allowed the control room to is if we did our job and everything was prepared and executed well then they could just open up a book. That's you

know what the co-ps wanted. They wanted

this book of metals that they could really decide a few hours before if not in the moment. So we had to divide it up. What can we execute any time? What

up. What can we execute any time? What

can what do we need to do for a setup that requires setting up the day before dates? all these different things

dates? all these different things because in reality, as much as we try to plan, things just happen in the moment.

You don't know, especially in relationship shows, you don't know who's going to connect. You don't know who's going to be dating who. You can prepare and prepare, but you don't know necessarily what's going to happen,

which makes it so fun. It's a great breakdown. And every production is

breakdown. And every production is unique because it all has its own needs, right? What do you feel like walking

right? What do you feel like walking away from that was your biggest like what what did you really take with you as a producer? Wow. Yeah, that's a great question. So, it's fun and it's

question. So, it's fun and it's exciting, but a lot of times it is, you know, long hours, but we had a lot of

fun on the show. So for me, I took away I mean there's obviously the knowledge of how a show like that is broken down, but I just gained such a huge amount of

respect for you know uh the showrunners and co-e because you know I was focused on kind of you know challenges, the

medals, the dates, you know making sure they were they were funny and aligned brandwise with and story-wise with what we're trying to do. but then how do we execute it and then actually the pre-pro

that goes into it and then pulling it off. So that was just one little

off. So that was just one little component whereas they're they need to oversee that but at the same time they're in it watching

these things pan out and how do you pull the best characters in together? How do

you get them to talk about it? What

different story lines and and story arcs do you want to go with and keep it visually interesting? There's just so

visually interesting? There's just so much logistics that really they, you know, you can't be a million people at the same time, but they really were juggling a lot of hats. And I think that

we did a good job with with bringing those original creative ideas to life. I

would say just just knowing the massive undertaking. I think a lot of people

undertaking. I think a lot of people have misconceptions about, you know, how like what a showrunner does and um like how much they actually have to handle.

And I think it's interesting because if you can be a showrunner, you could be an EP in one genre. If you took, you know, myself as an example, I did those roles

in kind of docky series um and some travel shows and more magazine, but that was a lot more of a small compact crew.

So, I would not have been able to step into that higher role in a format like this. So, it's incredible. I love that

this. So, it's incredible. I love that you recognized you wanted the experience and you wanted to broaden that and you did it through someone who's a mentor

and I'd love to talk about how important mentorship is in this career path. I

think there's so many times when you have someone in the industry you really look up to or who maybe isn't like formerly your mentor but is someone who has has really helped you or guided you

through. What did it look like, Pam, for

through. What did it look like, Pam, for you to communicate to them, hey, I'd really love this opportunity? Like,

I I know this isn't really what I' what I've been doing in the past. I really

want to learn. I want to figure this out. In unscripted, you can get very

out. In unscripted, you can get very pigeonhold, I guess you could say, right? Like, you doc, you do formats.

right? Like, you doc, you do formats.

What does the art of that ask look like when you want to go for an opportunity?

And and how do you do that respectfully, artfully where you recognize your own talents but also your own limitations?

Sure. So I think with my mom, your dad and Sam, she took a risk on me because I didn't come from that genre and she had core team. She's done, you know, hugely

core team. She's done, you know, hugely successful, massive dating reality shows. So she had that core team and

shows. So she had that core team and then you know we had talked and I you know for me I it came about is like hey like I would love to work on any shows

or just even come visit and shadow you if there's any opportunities you have coming up and I'd love to help you and be a part of what you're doing and and see what we've been talking about from your perspective in real life. So it was

a little bit of a different situation.

She happened to have this show that was starting to crew up and it just was the right timing. But I still had to go

right timing. But I still had to go through the interview process and I was hired by the co-e so I did have to speak to you know how my experience would help them and yes and still had to go through

it but at the same time you know they they you know saw I would be good at maybe this direction right so let's put her like would you want to do this and I

was like yes this sounds amazing I'd love to be part of the creative and and it just kind of you know ended up working out and you know I worked really hard during that show because you know

you always have to work hard and every that's the thing with TV is every gig you're kind of reproving yourself over again but I would say with other shows

that I've worked on a lot of it through word of mouth but I think you do have to advocate for yourself like you do in anything and I think especially now the

job market isn't great there's not a ton ton being made and unscripted compared to some of the numbers maybe, you know, several years ago. That being said, I

think approaching it not so much of an aggressive like hire me, like how can you help this production? How do you fit into this production? How can you, you

know, get something learn, but also how does your skill set complement what they're doing on this project or in the show? It's very easy

to get almost pigeonholed into these specific pathways. And I think branching

specific pathways. And I think branching out and dabbling and asking questions about somebody's experience.

Yes, it might be very different from what you're experiencing, what you're going to experience, but it helps you inform and not just, you know, one

person. The more people you can talk to,

person. The more people you can talk to, the more informed you're going to be.

and then you're gonna start to figure out how it all comes together and how you can fit into it as well. It's great

advice. I mean, it is difficult to advocate for yourself when you're young.

I have a lot of people who reach out to me via the pod who want to get into it and are curious and like don't know how to make an intro email or don't want to be too gutsy. They say like don't reach

out to people to pick their brain and d.

I do find that the number one thing you can do, and you talked about this, in these situations, is get really comfortable knowing your strengths and knowing how to translate what you've

done with what you can do for them. And

that's a practice. That's a muscle. And

if you can do that, approaching a mentor or putting yourself up for an opportunity can come easily because you're practiced in what you can bring to the table. you can communicate it

confidently, but it's it certainly can be intimidating, especially for people who again, it's tough, right? Because

it's like, I've never been on set, but I need a chance to get on set for me to get the experience on the set. Just give

me the chance. But the core of that is be able to talk about your strengths and how that can translate. Even if you have never been there, make it clear that you

understand what it takes to be there and why you have that. And I think that's maybe the key. I love, you know, you speaking of mentorship, you you're a teacher,

you are a professor, you are are very much looking at and focused on the next generation of storytellers.

Talk to me about how being a professor has changed the way you currently work, just being around younger minds and and sort of shifting your perspective a

little bit.

Sure. So I teach at Bryant University.

I'm a lecturer there and I teach uh I teach unscripted television. I teach

media production, uh digital production, uh documentary film making and more of the uh you know media content side of things. So I teach a few different

things. So I teach a few different classes there while also balancing a few things outside. But I really have

things outside. But I really have focused, this is my first year doing it.

have really put a lot of energy into focusing into this because this is almost like a totally different even though I'm teaching things that I've worked in for 20 plus years now. It's a

different career in itself.

Totally. I mean teaching doing something and teaching something completely different. It's really

completely different. It's really amazing.

Yeah. So I had coached um this is a whole another conversation but I had coached figure skating for since I was 16.

Whoa. What a piece of lore.

So, yeah, just a little snippet. Um, I

don't think people would guess that about me or just seeing me, but um, so I did have this kind of instructional background and then I found I loved

mentoring up and coming students or not students, but upand cominging young professionals, so PAs that were enthusiastic and asking questions and wanted to learn more, right? I love that

part of my job and some of them are now producers and we all still keep in touch and I love seeing their success and that started to become one of my favorite parts of the job. So it was just

something I had wanted to do eventually in life and then I ended up moving from California to Rhode Island on the east coast at the same time this opportunity

presented itself and just all the stars aligned. So I really just dove in. It's

aligned. So I really just dove in. It's

more of a recent thing and I love Bryant. My colleagues have been really

Bryant. My colleagues have been really helpful coming with somebody that doesn't have yet necessarily this

academic background in instructing. I

did a couple guest speaking engagements in, you know, some university classes, but that's very different. So, they've

been really helpful and they're really forwardinking in regards to bringing on professionals that can teach the next generation. So they have a great balance

generation. So they have a great balance of the you know academic you know full through PhD side with you know okay who can we bring in that's working in this

world even if they don't necessarily have this PhD they have the equivalent experience are they going to bring something to our department so they actually have a lot of training and have

been really open and helpful with helping me throughout the different semesters because it is a big change but I'd say going back to your original question. One of the biggest things I

question. One of the biggest things I found was you don't necessarily know what somebody is thinking on the other

side. So, I'm up here and I can ramble

side. So, I'm up here and I can ramble on from I've been known to be a talker.

So, there's obviously ways I try to make my classes very dialogueheavy, a lot of exercises. We're shooting, we're

exercises. We're shooting, we're editing, we're hands-on. So, it's not just me up there lecturing. That's just

not my style. But when I do have to lecture and present some information with slides, some students are just more naturally quiet and not showing a lot

of, you know, nonverbal cues that they're paying attention. And I've been shocked with some of the students that come talk to me at the end of the

semester or at the end of class who I thought they were bored and not paying attention or just not into it because I can't tell. I don't know what they're

can't tell. I don't know what they're thinking, right? They'll be like, I

thinking, right? They'll be like, I really love this class and this is something I want to be doing and I'm shocked because I wouldn't, you know,

maybe they're just not the most vocal students. They're not as comfortable

students. They're not as comfortable participating. So, I think that's really

participating. So, I think that's really interesting that you just don't know what the other person on the other side is thinking in that kind of setting.

It's very different from just having a conversation with somebody. Yeah. Yeah.

But that's why it's important as a young like to you gota you got to tell people I am interested. I want this opportunity right because how could you know especially if they are typically I know

that society rewards extraversion and I don't necessarily think that's right but I do think you have to communicate. So

if you let's say you had an opportunity to bring one of your students on set in a similar way that your mentor did with you right?

Mhm. What is like the number the number one characteristic you would look for to be like that's the person that I feel I would sign my name to them. I'd bring

them on. I think they'd get a lot out of it. Like is there a particular

it. Like is there a particular characteristic that gives you confidence that makes you want to give someone an opportunity?

Mhm. I would just there's a few different things. So one is showing a

different things. So one is showing a genuine excitement and interest and eagerness to learn. So maybe that's not

always apparent in a class dynamic. Even

if somebody's a little bit more softspoken or or saves their conversations or questions for after class because maybe they just don't feel comfortable, you know, speaking. I try

to get everybody engaged and everybody comfortable, but you know, just not everybody's going to be comfortable trying to answer a question. Um, just a confidence thing. So, I think just the

confidence thing. So, I think just the the genuine interest has to be there and excitement and passion to learn

because if you're kind of like, oh, I have to go do this or oh, this is just a paycheck or a job, you know, then it's going to be difficult. I feel like

throughout the process, but if somebody's excited about the show, excited about the project, excited about the creative, I want to bring them in because then they're going to be more

willing to add just the bare minimum.

Um, even PAs. So, the PAS that I've mentored that went on to become successful, they're the ones that they're not just sitting in the chair on their phone, you know, gaming or

scrolling in the middle of set. there,

you know, sometimes there's downtime, you know, hurry up and wait is our motto in production, right? So, sometimes

there isn't stuff to do, but if they come up to me and they see that I'm, you know, on the walkie, I'm running around, I'm juggling, there's a pile of receipts, you know, sitting on my desk.

If they come up and they're like, "What can I do to help?" Or, "Do you have anything I, you know, do you have anything I can do?" and they pose it in a way that makes me think they actually

do want to do something and they're and they're going to be helpful. That makes

a huge difference. If they ask questions, if they show the interest, also just, you know, a a positive attitude as well. Sometimes you just

want to work with people um that see this as an opportunity. Not every job's going to be this groundbreaking creative or this, you know, Emmy-winning show. So

I I think it's it's you have to have a little bit of enthusiasm and positivity.

I love how nothing that you mentioned is a hard skill set. Nothing you did not say spreadsheet. You did like it is

say spreadsheet. You did like it is positive attitude, passion, and enthusiasm. And I hear that talked about

enthusiasm. And I hear that talked about constantly here. That is such a key to

constantly here. That is such a key to being given opportunities. We're talking

about how difficult it is to be a freelancer coming up in the industry. um

having that say yes attitude is the way to get the call or to for people to want to give you opportunities. I do want to talk a little bit. You've got it's so crazy you have so much going on. You're

a lecturer but you also just kind of launched a new venture where you're really going back to your roots as you know someone in that like factual

branded travel sports lifestyle genre.

talk to me about this latest venture and and what your your hopes and goals are for it and what you guys are really working on.

Yeah, so from the forest entertainment is sort of this new production company, immersive experience company and content company. So we are based in Rhode

company. So we are based in Rhode Island, but you know we have satellite offices in Los Angeles and Boston. I

lived in California many years, but I always had this East Coast roots and knew I was always going to come back this day. So, I tried to keep a little

this day. So, I tried to keep a little bit of a hand out in the production scene out here as well. So, we're really focused on sports, adventure, travel,

kind of this comfort content in the branded content space, but also branded entertainment and documentary and kind of this docuer space because why?

because it brings basically a lot of my background in these different genres and formats kind of into one space and one place. And I thought there was

place. And I thought there was definitely some room um you know in the East Coast for a production company that focuses a little bit more on these

genres specifically and that's doing you know high-end kind of cinematic sort of style content with really the story and entertainment perspective first and

foremost. No, you have some incredible

foremost. No, you have some incredible clients here and as we see brands creating their own studios. Dick

Sporting Goods studio, Chick-fil-A, the Kansas City Chiefs. I mean, we are at a rapid rate seeing brands open their own entertainment studios and just instead of sponsoring content, they're creating

it and they're becoming entertainers themselves. So at at this intersection

themselves. So at at this intersection of you know brand and entertainment, how are you as an independent producer

aligning all these pieces right when you look at packaging and putting all these things together? Uh are you approaching

things together? Uh are you approaching brands and for opportunities? And I

don't think anyone quite has a perfect formula for it yet. I'm curious how you approach it. Sure. So I would I would

approach it. Sure. So I would I would say you're absolutely right. It isn't

just it isn't a one-sizefits-all solution. So throughout my career and

solution. So throughout my career and now what we're doing with from the forest entertainment, there's a few different ways to go about kind of getting projects and getting business

and u some of them have been you know an RFP like a referral for project where you know this is coming from an ad agency in particular that kind of came up with the creative and they're looking

for a production partner to execute.

They're looking for a director to come in and help bring their specific creative vision to life. And then my job as an executive producer is to come up with the approach and bring in the right

people. And it really starts with

people. And it really starts with bringing in the right director when it's when it's more of a commercial branded content piece. Um, and I would say that

content piece. Um, and I would say that some of it's come from ad agencies. Some

of it's come from just relationships with different brands, working direct with brands over the years.

relationships with some other folks that I've partnered with, longtime clients that have been with me, you know, hiring me as an independent producer, hiring me

with whatever company I'm kind of associated or working with, and now luckily supporting my new production company and new venture that I'm kind of overseeing as as the founder and head of

that. So, I think that's really the work

that. So, I think that's really the work comes from all different places. And I

would say sometimes when we go back to documentary and unscripted in particular, sometimes it's just the idea comes from you when you see a network

need or you see a distribution need and then you know of a brand that would be interested in this branded entertainment

realm, right? Um, and then sometimes you

realm, right? Um, and then sometimes you can get everybody all in the same room and that you know you you come up with the idea and you start getting interest.

Would you be interested in this if you know X Y and Z's on board? And it's a little bit of the chicken or the egg because nobody wants to be the first person. So

person. So I know, trust me. It's like h if I we're going to talk to this person, we may or may not be talking to them. And if we did, would you guys like it's it's so

that all the time, right? But you Yeah.

And you can't say like, "Hey, I'm working with this person's on board until they're actually on board." So,

it's a fine art in itself about presenting it in a way where everybody's excited about the potential and getting the people in the room. So, everyone is

excited about the potential is the favorite the favorite phrase. Yes,

exactly. What do you find you're pitching a lot right now? I mean, you know, is are feature docs still hot? Is

everyone going short talk? Are we going podcast? Are we going immersive audio?

podcast? Are we going immersive audio?

Like what are you what are you working a lot at nowadays right now?

Yes.

Verticals. I mean

being an educator has kind of sparked this interest in in me because we're having a lot of conversations about bringing in AI vertical dramas all the newest things that are happening and the

trends and what are these different career paths and what is it going to do to the industry and the existing careers right? So there's So for me, I've just

right? So there's So for me, I've just kind of been sparked with this curiosity. So I'm really, you know,

curiosity. So I'm really, you know, trying to gain as much knowledge as I can. So that's been really exciting. So

can. So that's been really exciting. So

yes. So I'd say from things that I'm pitching from more of an entertainment standpoint, there's some sports docuer that I'm really passionate about working

in that space. uh being on the east coast from Rhode Island Boston area, I started my career in live broadcast

sports and you know I started by working at Reebok and ESPN and Fox Sports and um

you know doing content within that space and I found kind of you know doing the branded content and some of the documentary pieces have always been some of my favorite projects. So, um, I'm

really passionate about a few things we're developing in that space. And I

would say for me, I'm still a little bit more focused on more docu series. There has been a few formats floated around documentary,

standalone ideas, which are also really interesting. So, there's actually a

interesting. So, there's actually a project, I can't go into too much detail, but it's one that we're kind of weighing out. Is this, you know, could

weighing out. Is this, you know, could this be a limited series? Should this be a standalone documentary film? Yes. So,

and it's it's kind of a little bit interesting right now because I feel like the more traditional models

of coming up with the idea, developing it, bringing on a select few partners and pitching is sort of going out the window a little bit. Whereas

like it's not uncommon for a brand now to be excited and to come in versus going to a brand after the fact, you know, bringing in brand partners before you even pitch to networks.

Yes.

On the front end. Yep. So, you know, a little bit more starting to dabble more in that space and then, you know, thinking about distribution. Where would

the right be home be eventually? So, and

it helps the networks obviously when you're alleviating some of the cost, but yeah, it does it make it more complex?

Yes, absolutely. Because you have more creative stakeholders, right? I did this series several years ago which was commissioned by Vans, the shoe company, shoe and apparel

company and surf skate culture and we filmed it and then after the fact filming it, we partnered with Red Bull to do this partnership and distribute

it. So it went on Red Bull TV and then

it. So it went on Red Bull TV and then Red Bull also helped with distributing it with some of their partners. So it,

you know, we aired it on Hulu. So it

didn't go on to Hulu until we had already made it and you know it had already been created. So I

I mean Red Bull one of the OG in branded content, right? Like

content, right? Like when you look at where it all kind of started.

Well, that's so Yeah, it is. I agree

with you. It's the puzzle pieces are all interesting now. or maybe you'll take

interesting now. or maybe you'll take something to a network and they'll be like if there's brand interest yeah I'll come back then we'll talk but a lot of the times I'm getting it on the front end so projects are taking a lot longer in development it's yeah it's

interesting right and then each buyer is different in terms of their appetite for brands some are like attach some attach a brand we'll put it out whatever you know there's just all different types of

hoops to jump through and it's all really interesting and your insights have been really wonderful you you teach students How do you try to still remain a student in your day-to-day life and

with your work?

And there's part of me that, you know, wants to make sure that one, I'm hearing because, you know, right now, like I'm

I'm not necessarily, you know, focused on those segment, those producer, field producer gigs, hopping on a show for a couple months and and freelancing. I'm

more focused on teaching and growing the company and pitching certain select projects. So for me, you know, staying

projects. So for me, you know, staying in touch with, you know, a lot of directors and DPS, editors, showrunners, creators, just touching base and seeing

what they're working on and we just talk shop and start talking about the trends.

So that's been really helpful. Um, yeah,

just seeing what everybody's doing in the trades. You know, I still read the

the trades. You know, I still read the trades. I think it's very important. I

trades. I think it's very important. I

tell my students, if this is what you want to do, you need to, you know, whether it's Real Screen or Variety or some of the other trade magazines out

there. Um, you know, just give a give a

there. Um, you know, just give a give a read every once in a while, keep up with them, know the headlines, see what's happening in the industry as a whole.

podcast, you know, LinkedIn, just, you know, it's it's really like simple and easy ways.

But I would say definitely I learn a lot from, you know, just keeping conversations going. I think it's really easy to to

going. I think it's really easy to to people talking. Yeah.

talking. Yeah.

So, well, they do and it's it's, you know, a lot of times you get you only talk to people when you have something you're working together on. And it's rare that you're like, let's just have a chat.

like I want to hear what you're working on. You know, I think those things are

on. You know, I think those things are so important and they don't feel critical when you're looking at your day-to-day and the things you have to get done, but they really are such fertile ground. Like I leave so many of

fertile ground. Like I leave so many of conversations like that where you're like, let's just sync up. Let's just

like see what's going on. And I always leave those conversations feeling so creatively fulfilled and with new ideas, right? And I think as and as producers

right? And I think as and as producers and as creatives, we have to make sure that we're fitting those things in.

Yeah, you're exactly right. Absolutely.

Uh I have to know, are you watching Real Housewives of Rhode Island? Do you have an opinion? Oh, yes. Okay.

an opinion? Oh, yes. Okay.

Yes. I love it.

Absolutely. Absolutely. So, when I was moving to Rhode Island, we moved July and we were closing on the house in August and it was like this crazy

whirlwind. And I noticed that they were

whirlwind. And I noticed that they were they were shooting it last summer and I just saw even on like staff me up I saw they were looking for PAs and I'm like I

got to maybe I should try to work on the show. It ended up being so crazy but it

show. It ended up being so crazy but it I have definitely been following kind of the making and creating end. I do have some friend producers not necessarily on

this show but have done other housewives. So, I've definitely chatted

housewives. So, I've definitely chatted with them and I have a group thread with a bunch of girls that I grew up with in high school and um it was previously we

had a milestone age that we all turned last year. So, I won't go into what that

last year. So, I won't go into what that age is, but we have this group thread going and somebody it kind of went quiet for a couple months and then the other

day somebody said, "Are you watching Real Housewives or is anyone watching Real Housewives of Rhode Island?" And

there's 10 people on this group thread.

So, everybody has is involved.

Everyone's been watching it. People that

did that weren't going to watch it or don't like reality, we sent them to YouTube. So, I've seen the first couple

YouTube. So, I've seen the first couple episodes. Um, I need to catch up cuz I

episodes. Um, I need to catch up cuz I think the third one was released. I

think we're going on.

It's getting rave reviews. You'd think

that these new, you know, you're like, Another Housewives, but the fact I love that they found a new pocket of the country, different people, culturally very different, and I just I think it's so interesting. So, well, we'll I

so interesting. So, well, we'll I actually haven't started watching because I'm like everyone keeps talking about how good it is. I'm like, okay, I got to dive in. So, I will send you my thoughts. But it's been so wonderful

thoughts. But it's been so wonderful having you on, Pam. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing all of your knowledge with us and also just thank you for being an educator. Like it's

it's so important and especially for this next generation of students, no matter what they're doing, it's having people like you is is so critical and so crucial and so thank you for what you do

and really excited to see what more comes from from the forest. and we'll be adding that into the show notes so everyone can go check you out, follow you, uh, for more so that we can keep rooting for you.

Awesome. Well, thank you so much for having me on. Bye-bye. Thanks.

Thanks so much for listening to my chat with Pam. You can follow us at

with Pam. You can follow us at Unscripted Files Pod on Instagram.

Please don't forget to like, subscribe, rate, review, all the things. And we

will be back next week with another long- form conversation with a creative in the unscripted industry. Thanks again

for listening. Happy Friday.