The REAL Problem With Gen Z - Social Scientist Reveals the Truth

Arthur, thank you so much for taking time to speak with me.

Thank you for having me.

Just watched your phenomenal speech at the Ark Conference where we're sat and speaking. And I actually I'll just start

speaking. And I actually I'll just start out with something that really boggled my mind actually, which is that the average American checks their phone 200 times a day. Over 200 times a day, right?

And I check my I checked how much I checked my phone as soon as you said that cuz I never thought about it and I was a 100. It's the first time in my life I'm happy to be below average.

That's right. Half you're doing half the rate of the average American of the average. And it's my job to check my phone cuz I got to prepare and and all this. But what does that tell us

all this. But what does that tell us that fact? What what why did you use

that fact? What what why did you use that fact? What were you trying to sort

that fact? What were you trying to sort of provoke in us?

It was a recognition that we're doing something compulsively that's not costless. On the contrary, what I'm what

costless. On the contrary, what I'm what I talk a lot about in my work is what happens to your brain every time you check your phone. Now, a lot of people say, "Well, you get distracted, etc."

But the problem is that you're you're anesthetizing yourself from from an unpleasant process in your brain that's nonetheless incredibly necessary, which

is it's called the the the default mode network. [clears throat] Now, that's the

network. [clears throat] Now, that's the set of structures in your brain that illuminate when you're undistracted.

And it's not always pleasant because it's flights of fancy. It's it's an examination of the deep meaning of your life. It's uh it's mind wandering.

life. It's uh it's mind wandering.

People don't always like it. On the

contrary, it's, you know, the problem with boredom is it's boring, but it's incredibly necessary. If you

want to understand the meaning of your life, you must use those parts of your brain. And the only way you will do it

brain. And the only way you will do it is being undistracted. So, when you check your phone 205 times a day, which is the average, you 100 still plenty bad. What you're doing is you're you're

bad. What you're doing is you're you're jamming yourself into the part of the brain that's actually not going to allow you to even understand the meaning of your life. And little by little by

your life. And little by little by little drip drip drip meaning will start to evade your consciousness. Your life

will start to feel meaningless. You'll

start to feel empty and you'll become depressed and anxious and you won't know why.

So that was actually [snorts] the would have occupied a lot more of our thinking before the smartphone and and for all of the evolution of mankind

of of humans we had a lot of time to ruminate I guess might be the Yeah. Yeah. Rum and rumination actually

Yeah. Yeah. Rum and rumination actually uses a part of the brain called the vententral lateral prefrontal cortex and and rumination is incredibly important.

People it gets a bad rap. The reason

that people are depressed, they ruminate on their sadness as they're trying to learn from something bad that has happened. It can be maladaptive. It's

happened. It can be maladaptive. It's

not always healthy, but but rumination is incredibly important that we able to just otherwise we won't learn. We won't learn from good things or bad things. We won't

be able to bond to other people. We

won't be able to do creative things.

Those are all meaningbased experiences that we actually have. And and in the old days, I mean, you go back to my great-grandfather, Leroy Brooks from THA, Kansas, he never came home and said

to his wife, my great-grandmother, Mary Ellen Brooks, "Honey, I had a panic attack behind the mule today."

[laughter] And the reason is because his brain was working the way it was supposed to. You

know, he spent all day long looking at a mule's butt and his brain was working, right? I mean it was it was boring

right? I mean it was it was boring moment to moment to moment but his life wasn't boring. And the problem today is

wasn't boring. And the problem today is that our lives are never boring moment to moment to moment but our lives are boring overall. I mean I talk to my

boring overall. I mean I talk to my students and they say my I'm bored with my life but they're never bored in the moment.

That's the that's the irony of all of this is to be bored moment to moment and interested overall. That's the way we're

interested overall. That's the way we're designed to be. That means you have meaning. So rumination can be done to

meaning. So rumination can be done to excess and can be it can be maladapted. Sure. Right.

You can get stuck on something. Uhhuh.

But we've gone the other direction on whole now is that we're not ruminating enough as well. I mean you find a lot of people

well. I mean you find a lot of people they they wind up getting really really depressed. And depression has as one of

depressed. And depression has as one of its manifestations depressive sad ruminative sadness. And so a lot of

ruminative sadness. And so a lot of people have depression today and they do have ruminative sadness and they try to distract themselves from it again and again and again. And you know one of the reasons that people take selective

serotonin reuptake inhibitors classic SSRI drugs is because it actually increases the serotonin in the syninnapse which is associated with less rumination. So they want to ruminate a

rumination. So they want to ruminate a little bit less. But the truth is you shouldn't just chase away. It's not

about rumination per se. It's about

boredom. You shouldn't chase away the boredom with distraction. You need to be bored more. Introduce more boredom to

bored more. Introduce more boredom to your life. My students I I give them

your life. My students I I give them exercises on being more bored actually. So for example, um I assign my

actually. So for example, um I assign my students to work out without headphones, to work out without devices. The reason

that you have your best ideas in a shower is because your phone isn't in there and you turn on the default mode network while you're under the under the hot water.

So I don't call that being bored, right?

Because I'm never bored.

Yeah.

Nor am I always on my phone. I I use it quite a lot because I will pick up a book or I I'll I'll find something. There's there's so much to do in in the world. I I it's not I wouldn't

use boredom to boredom. Boredom is a it's well it's it

boredom. Boredom is a it's well it's it has a negative connotation for sure.

What I mean is is not being distracted.

And the iPhone is how we distract ourselves chronically is when you're sitting behind a light and it's going on too long and you pull out your iPhone.

When you're in a supermarket checkout line, it's going slowly, you pull out your iPhone. And the reason is because

your iPhone. And the reason is because you want to keep the default mode network off. Now, pulling at a book can

network off. Now, pulling at a book can turn off the default mode network, too.

And so, one of the things I assign my students to do is to get on a train and to put your hands in your lap and your turn your iPhone off and look out the window. That's your assignment is to

window. That's your assignment is to look out the no reading to look out the window. One of the ways that Yeah. I

window. One of the ways that Yeah. I

mean, even and and even before the advent of these technologies, u many people would overstimulate themselves with information. Einstein

was reported to have said, who knows if he did or not, he said it on the internet at least, right? That that

people read too many books. Did he?

Yeah. And that's actually true in a lot of cases. I know a lot of people who

of cases. I know a lot of people who will brag that they read three books a week. They're getting too much input and

week. They're getting too much input and they're distracting themselves from the hard work of thinking about ideas. So,

what you should do is you should read a book and they should think about it so it assimilates. And

and the greatest learning actually takes place after you're after after you're exposed to information. Bad teachers at universities are the ones that everybody thinks are the best because they understand those professors so clearly.

No, no, no, no, no. The best teachers are ones who who are teaching you something where you understand the words but not the importance until after the lectures and and that's when you do the

actual cognitive work that uses the default mode network in certain parts of your brain. Then it's deep enough to be

your brain. Then it's deep enough to be worth your tuition money. But if your understanding is it were a TED talk, that's garbage. That's that's lowquality

that's garbage. That's that's lowquality teaching. That's shallow. That's surface

teaching. That's shallow. That's surface

level right?

Is the way that that works out. So, what

I recommend to a lot of people, I mean, reading is way better than looking at your smartphone. Don't get me wrong.

your smartphone. Don't get me wrong.

That's a really good thing to do. But

don't always be distracting yourself.

Find times in your life. You need more white space in your life. You need a flight where you're sitting and thinking, praying, and letting your mind wander. It's really, really important

wander. It's really, really important cognitively for you to understand the meaning of your life. What's the science of of boredom? Is there do we know how much time we need to assimilate information? Is it different for

information? Is it different for everyone or is there a is there a is there a are there kind of rules we can follow?

There [clears throat] there really there aren't really I mean there are people who study boredom. I have a I have a colleague at Harvard named Dan Gilbert who studied happiness and boredom and

how much we hate boredom. He brings

people into the lab and he they use undergraduate students because they'll do anything for 20 bucks. and you set him in a chair inside the lab where there's nothing to do. I mean, there's nothing to look at. There's nothing.

There's no sound. You can't use your phone. You have to sit there for 15

phone. You have to sit there for 15 minutes. The only choice that you have

minutes. The only choice that you have besides sitting there patiently is you can have a little key fob with a button.

And if you touch the button, you self-administer a painful electric shock because he wants to see what do you choose, boredom or pain? And you know, 25% of the women shock themselves.

Twothirds of the men shock themselves.

So, it's kind of a study that that contrasts men and women as much as anything else.

And one guy in the original experiment shocked himself 190 times in 15 minutes and he got thrown out of the experiment because he kind of liked it. [laughter]

It's a different issue, a different kind of a pathology. But the whole point is that that we really really dislike that.

But we also become intolerant of it. And

the result is we miss this big important part of life which is our brains working in a capacious way to take us where we actually need to go.

One of the best things that we could possibly do is to self-administer this the white space to our life.

So you mentioned prayer there in passing.

Was that a way that we'd evolved many relig all religions I think have prayer. Is that a way that we evolved to

prayer. Is that a way that we evolved to actually incorporate the it's I don't like the word boredom but you're using so the boredom side of things the rumination time probably. Yeah.

probably. Yeah.

Is that is is there is there a science to that that Yeah. Yeah. So there's a lot of work

Yeah. Yeah. So there's a lot of work that's gone into what's actually happening in brains when people pray and you'll find for example that that nuns who are praying the rosary the Catholic rosary which is an ancient ancient

repetitive prayer. I pray it every day.

repetitive prayer. I pray it every day.

uh and they've they've looked at Tibetan Buddhist monks and what's happening in their brains when they're meditating.

What [clears throat] most westerners don't understand about meditation, it's not getting as spaced out as you possibly can. You know, the single point

possibly can. You know, the single point meditation is not even the most common type of meditation. It's actually

thinking single point meditation is where you look at the flame of a candle and and try to try to get space to to try to think about nothing. That's the kind and that's one of the reasons that that

meditation is so frustrating for most westerners because thinking about nothing is almost impossible.

Your brain is not made to think about nothing to clear everything. But they

think that like the Daly Lama just you know wakes up and just thinks about nothing all day long. I mean the Daly Lama wakes up and he'll the first two hours of his day are spent studying a piece of Tibetan scripture and thinking

about it deeply for two hours, right? And so prayer concentrates you in

right? And so prayer concentrates you in that way in a way through your brain is supposed to do what your brain is supposed to do.

That's that's actually what you want as opposed to being directed by some exogenous source of information. The

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prayer I've also found very helpful to just aligning myself generally in my life. If I can if I can take that time

life. If I can if I can take that time to think about where I'm heading, which way up or I'm looking, that helps me in all my decision- making in in life. So,

there's obviously other values um to it.

Uh I as you're speaking there I I I want to make a confession is that I have to have the telly on to go to sleep at night which because if I don't have the telly on I'm usually watching Kill Tony as a comedy show but if I don't have it

on my mind starts thinking too much.

I've got too many ideas and I'm kept awake by my ideas.

I don't know if that's normal or not.

Is that a is that a problem?

A lot of people a lot of people do that.

It's actually bad for your sleep architecture among other things. It's

and and part of the re there's a whole lot of reasons why that's the case.

you're interrupting the functioning of the pineal gland and the natural u the natural production of endogenous melatonin and all that. I mean it's blue light etc etc but but also just the

stimulus per se has a dilitterious impact on your sleep architecture. So

you're probably not getting the right proportions of non REM sleep to REM sleep and deep sleep to light sleep etc etc. I mean it's not a huge horrible thing. It's not like you're going to die

thing. It's not like you're going to die 20 years too young as a result of this, but proper sleep hygiene, which by the way, I don't have. I'm a terrible sleeper. Okay?

sleeper. Okay?

I've always been a terrible sleeper. At

least since my 30s, I've been a terrible sleeper. So, it's, you know, I I I say

sleeper. So, it's, you know, I I I say this with appropriate humility, but a better way to do that is actually if you had a prayer protocol as you're going to sleep.

Prayer.

A prayer protocol. Here, I'll give you one. You want me to give because you're

one. You want me to give because you're you're Christian, right?

Yes. M [clears throat] so um the do you know the Jesus prayer of the Eastern Orthodox the Russian Orthodox monks?

No.

Okay. So the the there's a great book that everybody should read called The Way of a Pilgrim written by an anonymous monk in the 19th century and it's written through the voice of a mendicant

of a pilgrim and he's walking around [clears throat] Eastern Russia and he's just walking around Eastern Russia saying one prayer. So the beginning of the the book is it's almost it's a funny thing. It's sounds really boring but

thing. It's sounds really boring but it's a page turner. At the beginning of the book, he's he's contemplating this passage from Thessalon Thessalonians, but it's like pray without ceasing. Pray

without ceasing. And he's like, "What does that mean?" So, he goes to a he goes to a priest, an Orthodox priest, and gets nothing. And he goes to somebody else, and he's just getting this like nonsense. So, he finally he

goes to this this hermit. He said, "What does it mean to pray without ceasing?"

And the hermit says, "Um, well, I'll tell you what. Go go go go go home and pray the Jesus prayer a thousand times each day and come back and see me in a week. Okay. The Jesus prayer is just

week. Okay. The Jesus prayer is just this. Lord Jesus Christ, son of the

this. Lord Jesus Christ, son of the living God, have mercy on me a sinner.

That's it. You breathe in as you say it in your head on the first part. You

breathe out when you say it on the second part. You can even truncate it to

second part. You can even truncate it to say, "Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me again and again thousand times." He

comes back after a week and the hermit says, "Um, okay, good. Now go home and pray 5,000 times a day. Come back and see me in a week. I mean, it sounds like a like a shaggy dog joke practically.

This goes on and on and on until he's doing it 10,000 times a day. And he

comes back and says, "Now what?" He

says, "Do that for the rest of your life." That's what it means to pray

life." That's what it means to pray without ceasing.

A constant conversation with God. Now,

you're not going to be in constant conversation with God. But think about it this way. When you pull out your phone to look at some stupid YouTube short, you've sacrificed the ability to be in conversation with God. You could

have been talking to God, right? When

you're looking at the television as you're going to sleep, that's a conversation with God as you head off to sleep. And your sleep is a divine thing.

sleep. And your sleep is a divine thing.

What is actually in your mind as you're going through the night? That's not your wishes.

That's God's wishes. Don't you want your last conversation to be with your beloved? And so, and and and so he the

beloved? And so, and and and so he the the rest of the book is he's walking around Eastern Russia having these adventures saying the Jesus prayer. The

whole theme through the book is a Jesus prayer again and again and again and how it actually works with his heartbeat and it's extremely eastern.

It's very very and it's sort of Buddhist in its way. I'm not a Buddhist but I appreciate that because I've worked for the Daly Lama for the last 13 years.

Oh, really?

Yeah. So, I've seen the similarities.

So, so when I read that book for the first time 20 years ago, I said, I want that. I [clears throat] want that. And

that. I [clears throat] want that. And

so, that's the prayer that I prayed every year, every day for 20 years as I go to sleep.

Wow. as I'm lying on the pillow and I say, "Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me."

me." And you train yourself to to to go to sleep.

So in the short term, you're having better sleep. Certainly better. It

better sleep. Certainly better. It

sounds like you're having better sleep than me.

You're better. Well, I don't know. I'm

It's I have horrible sleep because, you know, my sleep architecture has been messed up by, you know, a life of dissipation.

So, what what do you would you say have you gained from that doing that? I it's

deeply deeply impacted my relationship with God because I'm talking to God all the time. Now I have other practices. I

the time. Now I have other practices. I

go to mass every morning. I'm a I'm a Catholic every morning. Yeah. I go to and usually almost every morning when I'm on the road and absolutely every morning when I'm at home with my wife and I like to finish up the day praying the rosary with my wife. It

takes 25 minutes that ancient meditative prayer um thousand-y old Catholic prayer u just which is just repeated our fathers repeated hail Marys repeated glory bees over and over again as you

contemplate the mysteries in the in the gospel and [clears throat] then I go to sleep praying praying the Jesus prayer and altogether this takes me hour half hour for mass 25 minutes for rosary

few minutes as I'm going to sleep and it and it helps me to it it connects me to the person that I want to be can I ask about the Christian the our father the what's the significance you

think of that prayer because you haven't mentioned that but that is a prayer that our lord taught us to to say that is the significance it is the prayer that our father our our our master taught us to pray as Christian people and it's sort of the perfect

prayer has all the parts of a perfect prayer I mean you you you you you you glorify God I mean the the the way that you're taught to pray as a kid remember because you grew up in a Christian home right

and you were taught to pray to glorify God to thank God to say you're sorry to God and then to ask God right it's kind of like

thanks sorry help me more that's the structure of a prayer and that's the that's the structure of our father I mean it's just like this is how we understand it has this particular cadence and and when you don't know what

to say this it's like are you a married man uh no engaged you're engaged so when you don't know what to say I love you when you don't know what to say. There's going to be

times when you're not going to know what to say as you just say, "I don't know what to say. I love you."

And that's basically with the Our Father is with with the Lord.

Wow. And do we know anything of the science of the Our Father? Is there is do have you studied like how that is? I

mean I could hearing you speak there obviously I I I can tell that it works in a sort of soothing way and and u and so it has anesthetic benefits it has all

sorts of ways of calming etc etc and and of course there are studies people praying not just the our father just praying prayers to be sure but there's no science on the cadence of the our father per se it would be

interesting I would love to see an fMRI study that actually looks at the brain how it changes as you're saying the our father who knows yeah um So, back to the the way

smartphones are affecting us and and this is something we've covered on the show a little bit and touching on is is Gen Zed. Yeah.

Gen Zed. Yeah.

This is a generation who have been born Gen Z for Americans by the way.

There you go. Uh bought up on smartphones and I [clears throat] I I work with some Gen Zed and some of them are very brilliant but some others they struggle in human relations. They they

they find even sending emails difficult.

anything where there's interactions.

I've noticed something odd. They're not

like my generation. Maybe it was my generation. There's a something wrong

generation. There's a something wrong with us, but it it seems to me that they're they are not socialized the same way. [clears throat]

way. [clears throat] And what you described there, this this time of of them basically not having being constantly distracted must have had an

impact. Do you see it that way?

impact. Do you see it that way?

Yeah. Yeah. So, a couple of things went into it. So, Gen Z um came up during CO

into it. So, Gen Z um came up during CO and they were forcibly taken out of society. They were they were isolated.

I mean, it was it's terrible what we actually did to them in their formative years. My you know, my youngest daughter

years. My you know, my youngest daughter is 23 years old and [clears throat] she spent the last two years of high school alone with her parents after my other sons were, you know, out in the military and in the workforce,

etc. and and it was hard on her. You

know, it took her real work to actually make up for that. And a lot of what we actually see in the personality studies is that Gen Z, all of our personalities changed during COVID, but those of us

who are older than Gen Z snapped back and they didn't they didn't snap back.

They're they became they were permanently more introverted, permanently less conscientious, permanently less agreeable and and you know these are permanently more neurotic

actually than we which is to say more prone to mood disorders of anxiety and depression. [clears throat and cough]

depression. [clears throat and cough] That's no joke. I mean maybe they will in the long term. We don't know. We

don't have enough data. So just on this I was under the understanding having looked into personality psychology a little bit is is so with big five or big six if you include the sort of the

humility.

Yeah but it's big five. Yeah. Yeah.

I was only understanding that that doesn't change through life.

I know this is the crazy thing say that it it was changing.

We haven't seen this before. We now you have temporary changes in your in your big five openness conscientiousness extroversion agreeableness neuroticism.

Temporary changes. temporary changes. I

mean, if you're going through a heartbreak, I mean, you're engaged right now and if your, you know, your fiance calls you right after we're done this podcast and like, I've been thinking, we need to talk.

You're like, uh, your personality is going to change temporarily. I mean,

your neuroticism is your exhibited neuroticism is going to increase.

You're probably going to turn in on yourself as you know the the Latin inv curvatus, you know, you'll be like, right, it it will change, but we have a default.

You have a default that you actually go to. And this is longer and more enduring

to. And this is longer and more enduring than anything we've seen before. So,

okay, is it permanent? I don't know. But

it's been a long time. And so, that has a has an impact on the way that people are dealing with each other. That the

way that people are working with each other. Second, coming out of COVID and

other. Second, coming out of COVID and especially during CO, but coming out of CO is that that all that relationships are mediated through screens. Now, when

you're on the screen, you're you're experiencing information in the left hemisphere of your brain. That's the

complicated side of your brain. When

you're with somebody in real life like we are right now, we're mediating the relationship through the right hemisphere of our brain, which is the complex parts of our brain where we understand mystery and meaning, whether

we can solve these particular problems or not. If you're not used to dealing

or not. If you're not used to dealing with people in the part of your brain that you need to, that's most appropriate that our brains have been designed for, that our brains have been built to love each other with, it's

going to be a simulation. So just on the left right brain thing those people who are who are new to this the left brain is like the sort of mechanical mathematical engineering analytical it's information and things information

how to and what and the right brain is the kind of I associate the artist and and the intuition and the the female side well well women actually have more generally

speaking have more um developed right hemispheres than men tend to have more developed left hemispheres I mean your results may vary I mean people you got you men and women of all sorts The right side is the why side. It's the mystery

and meaning side. It's the understanding and intuition side. It's your

relationships.

It's relationship. So, so actually this whole generation of engaging with the other side of their brain with regards to relationships.

Yeah. And which means that it doesn't feel real. It feels like a fake thing.

feel real. It feels like a fake thing.

It feel the relationships feel fake.

They're not fulfilling and and it's awkward. It's kind of like uh a

awkward. It's kind of like uh a generation of people that have been they're aliens and they've been taught to to to kind of fit in, but they don't quite you know those science fiction

movies where people come to Earth and from another planet and and they you start to suspect that they actually aren't human.

You know, if if it's not I'm not saying that Gen Z is not human.

Come across as autists.

Yeah. You come as as really as awkward in social relations. Now, many Gen Z are fantastic in this particular way because they've gone against the grain. I know

lots of Gen Z that put down the phone and are in real life and that's why you see particularly people in religious communities. They're better than fine. I

communities. They're better than fine. I

mean, all three of my kids are Gen Z and they, you know, my sons got married at 22 and 23 and had their first children at 23 and 24 and and and it's because it

was all in real life. All in real life.

They were they were they were they were rebels against this thing. But people

who didn't and who doubled down on the screens themselves, they used their brains in a weird way that made it social relations fundamentally awkward because the the the social relations were being mediated through a part of the brain that it was not designed to

mediate and and that's is that irredeemable or like uh can that be redeemed? Can it be can if the children if children have been trained in that way

and their brains are thus there isn't a snap back because their brains have really developed in that way well it gets to 20 what time does when does that brain stop developing 25 30 never it never stops never stops developing we're synaptically plastic

for the rest of our lives we're more we're doing more pruning of the synapses when we're younger and so you're more quickly synaptically plastic when you're a kid than when you're a grown-up but

you can I mean you can get over all kinds of stuff I mean You can have a terrible experience and have some awful trauma and and and get over it. You

know, people can heal and but that that but this is all relates to the question you asked about changing personalities.

You know, it's weird. It's taking a long time. I think that ultimately we will

time. I think that ultimately we will figure out how to use smartphones. We

will figure out how to use technology.

We will actually be demanding more in real life. And I'm starting to see it as

real life. And I'm starting to see it as a matter of fact, but this has created a lot of damage in the meantime. demanding

more in real life of relationships of relationships people in real life IRL that's what it all comes down to now I'm working for example with [clears throat] app developers for for dating

as a scientific adviser and what I'm recommending to the dating apps is not that you get rid of dating apps they go out of business that's pretty unhelpful for a scientific adviser to a company they're here to stay the problem is that when this is your

only way to meet people that's a that's a simulation of dating simulated dating is what it comes down to which The reason they have more dates and less attraction like I love all these guys

and they're like they're not attractive to me. Well, that's why because it's

to me. Well, that's why because it's simulated love, simulated dating.

Pornography is simulated sex intimacy.

Uh gaming is simulated progress. Um

scrolling is simulated entertainment.

It's all simulation. Simulation

simulation which is empty, which is unfulfilling is what it comes down to.

So, the way that I'm talking to dating app um developers is to add more humanity, human grit, more right brain into the leftbrain algorithm. So, you're

not knocking all the right brain out.

What you're doing is you're adding right brain in. For example, [clears throat]

brain in. For example, [clears throat] you're going to find people in your area that you might want to date. Now, the

step two is that your friends decide which ones that you're going to go out with. that adds in this right brain

with. that adds in this right brain intuition into the algorithm such that you and and and it's very clear that you're going to get more attraction to a person when you're not picking your dates.

So you don't have any any choice in it.

So you also don't know whether they have any interest in you.

Well, no. It would be for example that you match with somebody and then you've matched with 10 men if you're a woman and then your best friend figures out the two you're actually going to go out

with. So I Okay, we'll go finish the

with. So I Okay, we'll go finish the point.

So that's So the whole point is that but you're adding in this this right brain experience of somebody who knows you well. And this is all based on, by the

well. And this is all based on, by the way, the the empirical data that that the best way for you to fall in love is to be sent out on a a blind date set up by somebody who knows you both.

Really? Oh yeah. The best chances of it happening or the best chances of you actually having deep deep deep connection. Now the

reason is because your loved one I mean not your mom because your mom will get it wrong but somebody who's a friend who who you know [laughter] like god forbid my mom would have set me

up with somebody who knows what I would marry you now. So but it'll be somebody who knows the right amount of values similarity with enough difference that you complete each other because the

right brain fills in all those gaps figures that out. When you think about your friends, you're like, I don't know why, but I think those two would be great together. I think they'd really

great together. I think they'd really like each other. I mean, they're both religious or they both whatever they're and but they're, you know, the differences are what you're able to ascertain. Now, when you're picking your

ascertain. Now, when you're picking your own dates, you're looking for somebody who's you.

You're looking for sameness. And

sameness is not hot.

Nobody wants sameness. We're just so narcissistic that we don't know. We

neither know what we want nor do we know ourselves. That's a that's a truism in

ourselves. That's a that's a truism in behavioral science. And so that but but

behavioral science. And so that but but the whole point is that the reason that dating apps are now so unpopular with young people. I know nobody who says I

young people. I know nobody who says I love apps but people say I hate them but I got to use them. The reason is because they're finding that it's very easy to date and very hard to find love. And the

reason for that is that they're picking their own dates. And the reason for that that is a problem is because it's all left hemispheric information gathering which is inadequate for you to find

actual mystery. meaning, love,

actual mystery. meaning, love, happiness, depth, hope, faith, all of it.

Yeah. Quite. And it can't really be done on the app anyway. You I had another approach cuz I was doing the dating apps and it was Did you meet your fiance on the apps?

No.

Okay. So, you did the apps and then found we were friends on Twitter before we were uh friends in real life. And that is really engaging

real life. And that is really engaging in in Yeah. Although it's not how you engaged

Yeah. Although it's not how you engaged romantically. No, you met

romantically. No, you met about something else. No,

[clears throat] but I do love her tweets. But yeah, but that's a um uh so

tweets. But yeah, but that's a um uh so so you're actually engag because you did say in your speech that you want to ban the smartphone for from class from class not across the board from

No. Well, from it depends on what you

No. Well, from it depends on what you mean by minors. I mean I think that that there should be no access to to apps to social media before 16. I think before 16 is too young for social media. It

would be a Yeah. The problem with that, we've just

Yeah. The problem with that, we've just had that announced in Britain, is that what will end up happening is the government has to get a digital ID for all citizens and then that can be exercised against us.

Secondary consequences.

Yeah. So, so I'm quite against that.

However, it might sound more extreme, but I'm kind of in favor, especially after they listen to you speak.

Why should kids have smartphones at all?

I don't want my kids having I understand why parents want to give their kids an iPad cuz it's it's hard being a parent and I know, but it's bad for them.

It's it's bad for them. It's bad for them. But so you actually not

them. But so you actually not [clears throat] totally against the smartphone.

Well, no. I I would like it if kids didn't have smartphones. I think it would be better if they have don't have smartphones at all. But I recognize I live in the world that's not the way it's going to be. At very least, they shouldn't have access to social media, which is allowing predators to climb

through their window at night after you put them to bed. That's a bad thing.

Second is at very least metaphysically, but that's Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, it's like, you

Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, it's like, you know, we you you lock down their their room so that bad people can't get in, but you give them smartphone access.

But I mean, it's not even metaphorical.

It's totally predatory.

It's totally predatory. Yeah. Um, but at very double least, they shouldn't have any smartphones in in schools. That's

insane.

And by the way, that's not just minors.

You know, I teach at a business school where there are no personal devices in the classroom. And it's the best thing

the classroom. And it's the best thing about this is about the business school where I teach. I mean, they take pencil and paper. I mean, there's tons of

and paper. I mean, there's tons of research that shows that you absorb information better when you're just writing things down with your hand and that you're completely distracted when you're looking at your iPhone because somebody texts you and then you miss

what the professor said.

Mhm.

That's a problem. And so, I don't think you we should have these personal devices in classrooms through PhD. As

far as I'm concerned, it's bad for learning.

So, this big change in how we understand personality, I mean, this is a big change in how we understand. Well, the

question is whether it's p whether it's longterm or permanent.

Yes.

Yeah. And and

it is long term.

We just don't know if it's permanent.

And are efforts being made to study how it can be undone?

Well, yeah. I mean, people in personality psychologists have been looking for the longest time about how you actually alleviate neuroticism. I

mean the whole idea of of alleviating mood disorders is what the psychiatric profession is all about because the two most common mood disorders are clinical depression and generalized anxiety which have tripled in terms of depression and

doubled in terms of generalized anxiety since 2008 not coincidentally since the introduction of small screens and pockets.

That's what really happened to it. The

best predictor of which is saying that my life feels meaningless. It's all tied together. All of these things are

together. All of these things are actually tied together. So neuroticism,

[clears throat] that's the main area to lower neuroticism. And neuroticism is a

neuroticism. And neuroticism is a Freudian word, but that's basically what we're talking about. How do you make people more open to experience? That's

something that therapists talk about all the time. The problem is basically this.

the time. The problem is basically this.

What we're not very good at is looking for opportunities. What we're good at is

for opportunities. What we're good at is trying to to remedy problems. Most of the therapy industrial complex says that when you have a particular personality or you're experiencing discomfort that

that's evidence of pathology. And that's

wrong, too. I mean, the truth of the matter is there's nothing wrong with your sadness. There's nothing wrong with

your sadness. There's nothing wrong with your fear. Those are natural human

your fear. Those are natural human emotions. What you need to do is to

emotions. What you need to do is to understand them, to manage them, and to learn and grow from them. M

so that's the biggest problem with the way that we try to remediate personality deficiencies is that we we look at things that we don't like as evidence of

brokenness and try to eliminate the pain that's associated with them and that's that is equally misbegotten and we're using these words meaningfulness and happy you your your [clears throat]

area of expertise is is human happiness right and which is quite a curious uh word and I remember when Jordan Peterson stormed across the uh the scene and he was talking about the pursuit of meaning

rather than happiness. That's right. And

that was Jonathan Pou. He really likes his work on that. Um his on his work on meaning which is very very profound and that's influenced Jordan Peterson an awful lot.

Right. Well, and and Peterson [clears throat] referenced Victor Frankl and and Man Search for Meaning.

Man's Search for Meaning and and it's been a big I mean it's the title of your book, The Meaning of Your Life. Uh for

this Gen Zed, Gen Z, if they are having this meaning crisis, where [clears throat] where should they start if they want to climb out of it?

Well, to begin with, it's to you know, if you if you said um I'm having real problems in my life because of my drinking, the first thing I would tell you to do is to stop drinking, right? and then I would tell you to go

right? and then I would tell you to go live in a new way. So really this is an addiction problem. You know this the way

addiction problem. You know this the way that device use works is that it's and by the way that device use is the tip of the spear of a culture that has decided

that every problem has a technical solution. You know that's the culture.

solution. You know that's the culture.

The culture is the culture of Silicon Valley which has largely overtaken everything else in American life which means everything else in the world ultimately that there's an app for that.

that there's a complicated solution for that.

There's a specialist for that. That's

another another thing we hear all the time and uh the idea you got to see the specialist. They got to tell you and

specialist. They got to tell you and then they prescribe you.

That's a technical solution. That means

a technical solution technocrats. It's

not just the political level. It's

really it's the triumph of the engineers.

It's we have an engineer based culture.

We have a STEMbased culture. Look, I'm a scientist. I respect it an awful lot.

scientist. I respect it an awful lot.

I'm the son of a biostatistician. I love

this stuff. But the truth of the matter is that the the the texture of life, the depth of life doesn't come from an engineering solution. On the contrary,

engineering solution. On the contrary, it comes from a deep intuitive understanding of what it's all about, about the deep why, the mystical. That's

where life really resides. That's the

life and life. And that's been completely neutralized by this culture.

The tip of the spear of which is the way that we use the the the pocketsiz technologies. That's the problem. and

technologies. That's the problem. and

and and where does this track all the I actually had PJO back on and I thought it he was going to we're going to have a conversation about the end of the enlightenment and this problem started then but he goes actually it's the end of the Renaissance it started there but

where where do you see this problem when did it start it well this is I mean this has been this isn't an enlightenment problem but of course it's picking up steam as we go

along because of the idea of how knowledge doubles and doubles and doubles and doubles whether that's Mo's that that that the amount of knowledge

that we actually have will double every 16 months. Well, that's left hemispheric

16 months. Well, that's left hemispheric knowledge which has a geometric progression of it. The right hemispheric knowledge doesn't do that. Right

hemispheric knowledge is lived in real time over the span of a life and doesn't get faster. And so what'll happen

get faster. And so what'll happen necessarily is that the left hemispheric knowledge is increasing while the right hemispheric knowledge is saying the same thing and one eats the other. And so

that's necessarily been what we've done since we've lived in a particular way which is all information based. The

whole idea that the more information you have the better off you are. That's

wrong. I mean Einstein said we read too many books. [laughter]

many books. [laughter] I mean Einstein's purported to have said that on the internet but it's probably it could have been Einstein who said that we read too many books. He actually

did think that. And what he meant was we do too much reading and not enough thinking.

Right? It's the whole idea of the professor, right, who you understand and who's just giving you a TED talk.

Yes.

As opposed to And so when you read something, you should read it and then think about it in the shower, in the gym, as you walk without devices. Do you really want to

without devices. Do you really want to learn something at a deep intuitive level? You need to do that. No, but what

level? You need to do that. No, but what we've what we've valorized is reading nine books a week. And that the equivalent of which is what we get when we just let the YouTube algorithm give

us information. Information information.

us information. Information information.

You know, people will open up. I'm in

the gym, so I open up YouTube. I'm like,

"So, okay, what is the algorithm going to give me and I'm going to listen to while I work out?"

That's just information addiction is all that is. And that's the culture. That's

that is. And that's the culture. That's

part of the culture. So, it's not the there's nothing inherent in intrinsically evil about the machines.

The real problem is the ideology that actually that lurks behind that, which is to say the more information I get, the better off I'm going to be. And that

is quite incorrect.

Wow. Yeah. [clears throat]

You you're blowing my mind. Um I'm

appreciate that you have to go, but I want to mention your book then. So, do

you cover quite a lot of this in Yeah, quite a lot of it in there, but you know, it's interesting because I wrote the book over the past year and a half and and and my mind has expanded ever since the book has been out. It's

been been out for three three months at this point and the conversations that I'm having are making me understand all the things that I've missed.

What have you missed?

Well, I have a whole chapter in here on suffering for example and and suffering is so critical. I make my students my happiness science students at Harvard

say my suffering is sacred and part of the reason is because you only understand the meaning of your life when you suffer. It's one of the it's a

you suffer. It's one of the it's a that's Victor Frankle.

Yeah, for sure. I mean

it's the Christ story. I [clears throat] mean you it it is the Christ story but it is you illuminate the right hemisphere of your brain when you're feeling overwhelming negative emotion and that's the part of your brain that

you actually need to understand the meaning of your life. These are not coincidental neurohysiological phenomena. And and so the truth is that

phenomena. And and so the truth is that we need to understand suffering better.

And it and and I wrote a whole chapter, the penultimate chapter of this book is on suffering. And but but I've learned

on suffering. And but but I've learned so much more about it since since actually just in the past 3 months is really it's really where my mind has gone. Maybe I need to write a whole book

gone. Maybe I need to write a whole book on suffering. That'll be a bestseller.

on suffering. That'll be a bestseller.

This is a big deal though because the with the destruction of God or those who have tried to get rid of God, they've this goes from Einrand all the way to Sam Harris and the new atheist. So I had him on the show talking about the trying to get into this a little Sam with Sam.

Yeah. And

he's great. He's amazing

on this issue. I don't think so because he's tried to build a whole moral edifice above the idea of alleviating suffering or or human flourishing. He

you know he doesn't want God. So he

wants he wants to try and build the moral framework on something else.

And if because suffering is is the new devil in in the in the secular materialist world, I think.

if you what you're suggesting is actually it's necessary scientifically medically for our brains to develop.

We actually need suffering. It's not

necessarily bad. It's good.

In some well, not all situations.

Well, to begin with, it's inevitable.

Now, suffering, this is what I wish I'd apprehended.

It's always the best parts of your book are not in your book. [sighs and gasps] Suffering is pain multiplied by by um resistance to pain. Pain is completely

inevitable because it has everything to do with the indogenous circumstance exogenous circumstances of your life. I

mean, you're going to have negative emotions as a reaction to normal phenomena in life. You have negative emotions to keep you alive. Without

fear, you wouldn't jump out of the way of a car and your life would be over fast, right? I mean, so so you need

fast, right? I mean, so so you need negative emotions. Um you have negative

negative emotions. Um you have negative experiences because you're interacting with other people. That's just an inevitability. Pain, both physical and

inevitability. Pain, both physical and and and social, is part of how it's going to be. Suffering is

[clears throat] is inevitable, but it's variable with respect to your own understanding of pain. Suffering equals

pain multiplied by resistance to pain.

And so when you understand that then you can then you can find more meaning often by not trying to turn down your pain but by turning down your resistance to it which is the Christ story.

That's the Christ story where where our Lord is in the garden of Gethsemane.

And he says may this cup pass from my lips but thy will be done not mine. That's

the story of non-resistance. That's to

say, I'm going to suffer from great pain, but I've chosen not to alleviate the pain, calling down legions of angels, which he could have done according to Christian theology. He he

he decided God's will for him which is to sacrifice his life for all of humanity which is non-resistance to that pain such that not that we would be exempt from that pain but that we would

understand that pain and we would put into context that pain and that we would through the suffering we would understand the meaning of our lives. I

wish that were in the book.

On that note, Arthur Brooks really a great pleasure. and I I really enjoyed

great pleasure. and I I really enjoyed that conversation.

Congratulations on your show.

Thank you so much. I I'd be honored if you come back again and will we recommend the meaning of your life to viewers and is there anything else you'd like to bring attention to before you leave us?

Um yeah, all of my work which is I mean I have a column in the free press and I'm I'm doing a lot of work in media and it's a new topic every single week and people can find that at arthurbrooks.com which is just where everything is free.

Brilliant. Arthur Brooks, thank you so much.

Thank you. Thank you for watching the Winston Marshall Show with Arthur Brooks.

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