The Rise of Diary of a CEO

He's the host of the second biggest podcast in the world. The number one podcast in Europe and the fastest growing video podcast channel globally.

Everybody, please, please give a warm Press Publish NYC welcome to the host of Diary of a CEO, Stephen Bartlett.

Whether you know it or not, professionally, as a creator, you are being disrupted now.

Your competitors won't do it. They'll look at that small pebble and go, not that one. So there's a particular 10 second change we made to our podcast on YouTube,

one. So there's a particular 10 second change we made to our podcast on YouTube, which had a 300% impact on the amount of subscribers we get. We've always kept it secret, but maybe I'll talk about it. This conversation is from Press Publish NYC, our event where we hosted over 400 professional creators to talk about the future of the creator economy. Stephen was our last guest of the day and a surprise for

everybody in the room. If you want to get a recap of this session, as well as every session from Press Publish NYC, Microsoft Copilot put together the key takeaways from all the sessions. The link for that is in our description. All right, now for our conversation with Stephen Bartlett of Diary of a CEO.

I don't think I've ever seen you in a white shirt. That's so true. I

said to my team, people are going to think I've lost my mind. But no,

it was the only, we've just been recording all day, so it was the only shot that was in the studio. Sorry. Well, dude, thank you so much for coming.

I really appreciate it after recording all day. So I've been holding this question since two times ago when we saw each other. Do you know this? OK, I'm going to say it. So Stephen and I are talking in LA. And I don't even know how this came up. But in the middle of the conversation, Stephen goes, oh, yeah, but my failure team does that. And I paused for a second. I said,

what did you just say? He said, oh, my failure team does that. So I've

been waiting to ask you about what a failure team is and what they do at your company. Yes. So I think really important. I actually think if there's one principle or idea or concept that underpins the relative success that we've had on our show, it might be this, which is, okay, so the background context and the thinking

underneath this is to understand the correct answer to anything in life, whether it's in your marriage or relationship or on your Instagram page or TikTok or whatever it must be, you need to get information. So the next question becomes, what's the best way to get information in a world where the correct answer is changing at an increasing speed? Like if you listen to some of the futurists out there, they say that

speed? Like if you listen to some of the futurists out there, they say that if you're 40 now, by the age of 60, you'll experience a year's change at today's rate of change in about 11 days. Things are getting faster. That's what history shows us. So to think that you're going to get the right answer to the

shows us. So to think that you're going to get the right answer to the key questions you have about your products, your business, your audience, whatever, from reading a book that takes two years to publish and another year to write is not smart thinking. You're also not going to get any of the right answers from someone like

thinking. You're also not going to get any of the right answers from someone like me. Because by the time I've made it up onto stage and then you've implemented

me. Because by the time I've made it up onto stage and then you've implemented it for yourself, the blueprint has probably somewhat expired. So the best way to get answers to the questions that matter to you is to increase your rate of experimentation and failure. Like, and we all intuitively know that run an experiment, failure equals feedback,

and failure. Like, and we all intuitively know that run an experiment, failure equals feedback, feedback equals knowledge and knowledge equals power. But when you look at how the world's best companies are built, that's exactly what they do. They kill the guesswork. They build

systems to ramp up their rate of failure so that they ramp up their rate of relevant feedback. And so... When you look at a company like Amazon, for example, Jeff Bezos says in his shareholder letters, in order to be the company we want to be in the future, we have to be the best place on earth to fail. And the crazy thing that happens is you'll all relate to if you've ever

fail. And the crazy thing that happens is you'll all relate to if you've ever worked in a big business or really even a big team before, is as people achieve things and they have more things to lose, the psychology shows they go risk off and they go into loss aversion. They experiment less, get less innovative. And that's

the start of the end for those people, those creators, those companies. So if we're going to be successful because we had a high rate of experimentation, how do I maintain that and increase it when all the incentives suggest that we should go risk off? And that's why we have an experimentation and failure team. We have a head

off? And that's why we have an experimentation and failure team. We have a head of failure who leads that team called Grace Miller. And her primary objective is to increase the rate of failure. Notice I'm not saying the rate of success because if it's an experiment, you don't know the outcome. So you don't incentivize people based on how it's going to, on the outcome, because you don't, that's not in their

control. The controllable part is, can we run more experiments? So that's what you incentivize.

control. The controllable part is, can we run more experiments? So that's what you incentivize.

And if you start messing around with the output, you'll disincentivize productive behavior. So that

explains it. And like, what does this mean in reality? It means this team is responsible for making sure that all of us in all the teams production, you know, if I'm talking about like the podcast business production, the thumbnail team, it could be the e-commerce team, the... It could be the recruitment team are constantly culturally ideologically driving the rate of experiments. If they've got any issues, if they've got questions

that they don't know how to answer, if the experiments they're running aren't scientifically rigorous, so they're changing too many variables and we won't be able to trust the results, they create rigor across the board and they report on how much we're driving experiments and they do experiments themselves. So, you know, one thing that springs to mind, just because it's such a big thing for everybody in this room in a world of

AI is language, for example. So many years ago, about a year and a half ago, we first started doing the podcast in multiple languages before multi-language audio. We started

doing it with Spotify. And it's taken them about 12 months of experimentation, but we figured it out. And now the AVD in other languages is higher than English, which is like slightly offensive, but whatever. Yeah, that's amazing. I've never heard it positioned like that. And I think that's... It's a fascinating

quest to try and disrupt yourself in some ways, right? Or to try and kind of suggest that the goal is to get it wrong as many times as possible because that's how we get it right. I loved what you said the first time when you said disrupt yourself because that's like entirely the game. Whether you know it or not, professionally, as a creator, you are being disrupted now. And the only outstanding

question is whether it's you disrupting yourself or some other kid who doesn't have the loss aversion, doesn't have anything to lose, is naive. So they didn't know what convention and the blueprint looks like. They're currently killing you. So like, it doesn't make a lot more sense. Like, isn't it like the bulldozer is coming. The driver is yet to be determined. I want to be the driver of my own bulldozer. And so

we actually have another team called the Flight X team, which is in part, part of the experimentation team, part of the data science team who are operating kind of like an island. And they're running things like the AI podcast experiments where they're taking my voice, creating end-to-end podcasts using my voice, AI doing a lot of the transcripting, and then trying to see if they can beat the human shows that we

have. And again, really remarkably, like you'd think, like most of you won't believe what

have. And again, really remarkably, like you'd think, like most of you won't believe what I'm about to say, which is fine, but it took us about nine to 12 months to get to the point where if I showed you all of the retention graphs of two human episodes, the diary of a CEO and our AI one, you wouldn't know the difference. You wouldn't be able to tell me which one was AI

based on the retention graph because the same amount of people are getting to the end. And in innovation and through history, if you read books like The Innovator's

end. And in innovation and through history, if you read books like The Innovator's Dilemma, the reason why people don't pursue the disruptive innovation like AI content creation is is because it starts worse and none of your customers or audience are currently asking for it. So you ignore it. Like the horse and carriage

CEOs in the 1800s ignored cars because none of their customers asked for cars. Why

would they? They wanted more comfortable carriages. faster horses, stronger horses, and horses that had more power. But through history, whether you look at digging excavators or micro discs or the horse industry, the thing that kills you always starts worse and no one's asking for it. But the thing you have to look for is basically the rate and how much headroom it has to improve. And with AI podcasting, you go,

you know, how much headroom does that technology have to improve? Is it going to be cheaper than human podcasting? Is eventually it going to be better understanding what is retentive? Is it going to be faster to make? Am I going to have to

retentive? Is it going to be faster to make? Am I going to have to build a studio, fly in a crew, or am I going to be able to make it maybe automatically within seconds? And so the headroom of growth is bigger. So

you're really betting on the rate of improvement and the space for improvement. So, you

know, like, obviously I loved what I do. So I'm romantic like we all are about what I do. But I'm also like romantic about winning. And so you have to be less romantic about being right. And they're like very different things. Being right

and winning are very different things. And you have to make sure that you're romantically attached to winning, not being right. Romantic about winning. You have to be, or else you'll get caught up in like, you'll hang on to the wrong, the wrong horse. Like, can you explain the difference between being right and winning? A hundred

wrong horse. Like, can you explain the difference between being right and winning? A hundred

percent. Okay. So I say this a lot to my founders and my portfolio, my investment portfolio. Um, Being right is your initial hypothesis of how you either thought

investment portfolio. Um, Being right is your initial hypothesis of how you either thought things would play out or you wanted them to play out is validated. And in

my first company, a company called Wallpark, when I was 18 years old and dropped out of university, I had this very clear vision that students would use my student notice board on wallpark.com. And I was trying to figure out, I had no money, so I was trying to figure out how you drive traffic to a website. So

I started all of these Facebook groups, Facebook, more than a decade ago for every single university. And when freshers, freshmen came to one of the universities in the UK,

single university. And when freshers, freshmen came to one of the universities in the UK, they would join my Facebook groups. And then, because I was so romantic about them doing it over on my website, I shut the Facebook groups and pinned a post and said, I know you guys are like loving these Facebook groups. And there's like a message every 10 seconds. Now go do it on my website. Okay, that's romance.

And no one came, like a couple of people came, but no one came. And

so I reopened the Facebook groups again and everybody started doing the thing. And then

I'd shut them down and say, go to my website. And nobody came. Eventually I

ran out of money, like this process of me trying to force people to do something they didn't want to do because I was romantic about the solution. I ran

out of money. And so when I ran out of money, I thought, fuck it, shut down the website and I will focus on social media. And it turned out that like when I had no fight left in me, that built a really big business called Social Chain, which went on to become this big public company and made hundreds of millions in revenue and all those things. And it was when I gave

up the fight of my own romance and preconception of what the right answer was.

And this is kind of what I mean with the AI podcasting example. I'm going

to be unromantic about the solution. If people want to get their information from an AI podcast, I'm going to be attached to what the customers want. not what I want them to want. And they're very, very different things. I

want. not what I want them to want. And they're very, very different things. I

actually think most of you will need to go through a Wall Park style example that I've just described to truly understand how romantic we all are about our ideology and our identity and the university degree we got and how that makes us feel around our parents at Christmas time and how that anchors us in this identity, which then anchors us to these solutions, which can trap us and can mean that

we don't see the correct answer when sometimes it's right in front of us. And

like, I could make the case to you about how profound and disruptive AI is to everybody in this room. And some of you will believe it. And then there'll be another group of people that I think will be, will go through the cognitive dissonance, which is a term that psychologists describe when new information conflicts with who you are and what you want to be true. And the psychologists have proven that

you have to dismiss one of these things. You have to dismiss the new information or your own identity to create comfort. And it's very hard to dismiss or to rewrite your own identity. So the smoker who wants to be healthy, who's told that smoking is unhealthy, will say, yes, but smoking helps me with stress or yes, but that's an attempt to alleviate. That's what most people will do. I've

tried over time to be principled and not romantic. I want to ask you, and I want to take a little bit of a step back because I'm listening to you and Samir and I have had a podcast since 2016. I've never once thought about a failure team being romantic about winning about being as analytical as you are. And I want to ask you a question that was actually the first question

are. And I want to ask you a question that was actually the first question you asked Casey when Casey was on. You said to him, what do I need to know about your earliest days that informs me about who you are today?

All right. Before Steven answers that question, I want to answer a question that a lot of you guys ask us, which is how do we research for our guests and how do we come up with the questions to ask them? Recently, we've been using Microsoft Copilot, which is the sponsor of this episode. We've been using Copilot to research our guests and we asked Copilot about Steven Bartlett. Specifically later on in the

episode, you'll see we asked Copilot for questions that Steven Bartlett would ask Stephen Bartlett. So one of the most unique things about Copilot is actually that you

Stephen Bartlett. So one of the most unique things about Copilot is actually that you can create a podcast out of the research. So I just asked Copilot to make me a podcast researching Stephen Bartlett and giving me some angles on what the conversation could be. I'm going to play a little bit of that for you. Today, we're

could be. I'm going to play a little bit of that for you. Today, we're

diving into the fascinating story of Stephen Bartlett, how he went from recording podcasts under a blanket to becoming one of Time's 100 most influential creators. It's not just the information. You're actually getting it in an entertaining way. So this event that we hosted,

information. You're actually getting it in an entertaining way. So this event that we hosted, Stephen, at Press Publish NYC was also powered by Copilot. And one thing that Mustafa, the CEO of Microsoft AI, said is that voice is going to be the primary way that we engage with AI in the future. So they built a Copilot booth at Press Publish NYC where creators could go in there, get feedback on their ideas,

research new topics, and do all of this just by talking to Copilot. At Press

Publish NYC, Copilot was actually the official note taker and recapped the most important things from every single session. And if you want to get all of those notes, we put the link in the description. So thanks again to Microsoft Copilot for sponsoring this episode and powering Press Publish NYC. Now back to our conversation with Stephen Bartlett. Okay,

so the big picture thing. So a lot of shame. I was born in Africa, moved to the UK when I was a kid. We were like the Blackpool family in our area. And in 1994, there wasn't really any other... and really any other black families in the southwest countryside of England. That plays a role because it makes you, I think, have an over-index towards, like, validation and fitting in and being, like,

your rich middle-white class friends and relaxing, chemically relaxing my hair and wearing the skinny jeans and listening to, like, Arctic Monkeys, even though I had no interest in the Arctic Monkeys. And still don't, but, you know, I respect them. Um...

Arctic Monkeys. And still don't, but, you know, I respect them. Um...

And what else was important? Really bad in schools, like couldn't pay attention. Turns out

I have ADHD, which like apparently is obvious now, but I'm more like, it doesn't mean that I, it means that I get like a really obsessively focused on things.

I thought ADHD was like, you can't pay attention to anything, but actually it's, I can't pay attention to things I find really boring, which means that in school I was expelled and they unexpelled me because I made the school a lot of money.

But my headmaster was on a TV show in the UK and said this, he said, we unexpelled him because he made the school a lot of money because of my free time, I was running these businesses. And I think maybe the most important thing is my parents weren't around. So it meant that there was this shame and then this big void of independence. And you have to do something with that as

a kid. You have to run an experiment. You have to alleviate your own shame.

a kid. You have to run an experiment. You have to alleviate your own shame.

So that's when I started selling things and selling things in the house and selling a few things that belonged to my mom. And then that's, you know, I could buy things and that alleviated the shame. So that did two things. It taught me that there isn't, There's actually not a lot between any idea you have and the realization of that idea, which is like a really unbelievable lesson to learn at 14.

That you can like have an idea that you want to get on the ski trip with your rich white friends and it costs 700 pounds and you don't have one pound for lunch, let alone 700 pounds. And you can find out a way to get the 700 pounds. It's like a really unbelievable thing to learn at a young age. And I think that's the most important thing is that I think I

young age. And I think that's the most important thing is that I think I have a bias towards believing things are possible. And then through time... if you want to know why I am the way I am now in terms of analytical, I've just learned that whenever I find a principle, to really hold on to it. And what I mean by principle is like, when something holds

to be true over time and in multiple contexts, I get really attached to that.

I actually was speaking to Ray Dalio this morning. He was on the show this morning, and he's the guy that wrote the book on principles. And he says the same thing. He went from being broke to the world's biggest hedge fund. I think

same thing. He went from being broke to the world's biggest hedge fund. I think

he's worth 15 billion. And he says the same thing. He says, life is about identifying principles, going through your day, reflecting on what happened, and then writing down the truths that appear to be true, getting as close. And he actually, funnily enough, I didn't even realize this, but he said to me, the other thing is you reflect and you need to get as close as you possibly can to reality. And

what he's saying there is what I said earlier about not being romantic. He goes,

you have to be... And think about this guy. He bought the world's biggest hedge fund and is worth $15 billion. The hedge fund, I think, is worth hundreds of billions. Bridgewater. He says, you have to reflect and then get closer to reality. And

billions. Bridgewater. He says, you have to reflect and then get closer to reality. And

you have to realize that you're like highly... I'm like highly emotional, highly biased, highly insecure. We all are. And that's going to get in the way of your potential.

insecure. We all are. And that's going to get in the way of your potential.

So... one of the great things that I did at 21, 22 years old is every single day at 8 p.m., I said to myself that I was going to write a tweet and post it. Now, I thought I was doing that to build a following, and it built a following, which is great, which then gave me a platform to launch the Diary of a CEO. But the more profound thing it did

is it meant that I went through days like today, and then at the end of the day, I had to condense everything I'd learned, or the most important thing I'd learned, into 140 characters. And if you've listened to Richard Fryman... the physicist, he says that to truly understand something, you have to be able to condense it so much so that you could, and simplify it so much so that you could teach

it to a 14 year old. And that's what I was accidentally doing at 22 years old. So I wish you could, I wish you could meet me at 18

years old. So I wish you could, I wish you could meet me at 18 years old. Cause like, like terrible ideas, clueless, um, university

years old. Cause like, like terrible ideas, clueless, um, university dropout, parents aren't speaking to him, shoplifting food to feed himself. If you'd asked me anything about marketing or anything, um, to terrible ideas. My friends who were there take the piss out of me. They remind me of these terrible ideas I had. But

that process of self-reflection on a frequent basis, and especially if you publish it, which means you get feedback, which helps to refine the idea again, is I think the most underrated self-development idea that nobody seems to talk about.

Every single day, write in your diary, condense it, summarize what you've learned, And then it means when people ask you questions on stage, you have really concise ideas that you can swing to. So one thing I'm hearing from that also, from who you were growing up, is a bit of something that I carry, which is a

scarcity mindset. Do you feel that? So that drives me quite a bit. I think

scarcity mindset. Do you feel that? So that drives me quite a bit. I think

it drives a lot of creators. And I think it's why the game, especially of the analytical form of content creation, fills you up because you can get in abundance.

Yeah. or a relative abundance of something, views, validation, money, comments, engagement, you can get a relative abundance. So I'm curious because one of the headlines we all read about you this year is you turned down $100 million. So when you come from that level of scarcity and you get approached with building a show at the scale

of your show, and then someone comes and goes, I'll give you $100 million, Stephen.

And you go, no, I'm good. What's... What's the principle driving that when what I'm hearing is a kid who grew up with a bit of scarcity? Yeah. So there's several layers of context here. So I'm going to try and

scarcity? Yeah. So there's several layers of context here. So I'm going to try and knock them all off. So in terms of like the offer that we received, I think we can beat it on our own and without putting 12 ads into the podcast. Yeah. So we can beat it by putting two ads into the podcast

the podcast. Yeah. So we can beat it by putting two ads into the podcast with our own in-house commercial team. Fortunately, I come from a background where I was running businesses for the last 15 years. So I know how to build a team, run a commercial team. My last business was in brand deals. That's the company that emerged out of those Facebook groups that I talked to you about, became Social Chain,

which did marketing and brand deals with the world's biggest brands. I lived in New York for three years and our clients here were Uber, Uber, Coca-Cola across Europe, et cetera, et cetera. So I have that experience. I didn't need a media conglomerate to tell me how to build a team that can do that in-house. So that's the first point. And that's proven to be true already. When someone offers you these big

first point. And that's proven to be true already. When someone offers you these big numbers, you don't get paid the money in your bank account. It's paid over, in our case, three years. So you can kind of do the numbers on that. And

so my question is, do I think in the next three years, will I make more than said figure if we do this in-house and... Will this mean less ad load, which is potentially going to create a better customer experience for the audience, which is going to mean the show grows more and that's going to compound. So that's

like one bucket of thought. The other is wanting to be a master of my own destiny in terms of making decisions, which is maybe the most important, the most important, no, the second most important thing. And these partners have their own incentives and they move at their own speed. No one's going to let me have a fucking failure in an experimentation team in the old world. Because I have to explain myself

to people. So the old world is set up in a certain way. And sometimes

to people. So the old world is set up in a certain way. And sometimes

it can be a gravitational force. And the last point is I just love it. And when I think about the trade, the happiness trade of X million whatever to lose any part of what I love, it's just not worth it. Like, you know, I have a certain level of privilege because my last business did well and the show does well. Where I do ask

myself a lot these days, any figure, any number that someone offers me, like, how is it going to move the needle on my happiness, if at all?

And it's, like, very, very hard to find something that will move the needle on my happiness. Realistically, nothing will. Do you know what I mean? Nothing's going to make

my happiness. Realistically, nothing will. Do you know what I mean? Nothing's going to make you... If I get, like... Well, I have a question for you because maybe Colin

you... If I get, like... Well, I have a question for you because maybe Colin would ask me this question, but we talk about this quite a bit. Would more

time and space make you more happy or no? Meaning, because you're a very busy guy. Like the fact that you came here, we're really grateful. But I was like,

guy. Like the fact that you came here, we're really grateful. But I was like, you're recording all day and you're still going to come and do this. And I

assume you're going to go do more stuff. So like when you think about your life as a creator right now and as an entrepreneur, when you think about the trades that you have to make, like you're talking about happiness there, like... Do you

feel like that trade right now is at a healthy balance? Or do you look at it and you go, you know what, if I could buy a little more time and space to have some peace, I'll take it. So if you gave me two more hours in the day and I couldn't spend them doing what I currently do now because I might accidentally, I would spend them with my girlfriend and my

friends. That's like the thing that I think would expand my happiness more. And actually,

friends. That's like the thing that I think would expand my happiness more. And actually,

it was my birthday last week. So I flew all of my best friends over the last 10 years to my house in LA. And we had a week where I wasn't in work. I didn't do any work. Well, not really. And it's like the most amazing week of the year, just to spend time with my best friends who've been there for me for the last 15 years, and to just do fuck

all and just chill out and just to catch up and talk to each other.

Yeah. I know this to be true, and all of the billionaires, including Ray Dalio that I interviewed this morning and the billionaire that I interviewed yesterday, they all say the same thing. At the end of the day, and it's super cliche, but it's true, at the end of the day, it comes down to relationships. It all comes down to relationships. And if you ever get wildly successful and you buy a big

house, the first thing you think when you walk in it is, who?

Like, that's the question. Who with? Who with? Because I've had that feeling of walking into a new big house and thinking, okay, this means nothing unless it's full of other people that I love. And so it's a balancing act of, yeah, I've seen so many people, and from podcasting, I've seen so many people that burn all the bridges before they get there. I think I've done a fairly good job of not

doing that. I have my same group of six best friends. I've been with my

doing that. I have my same group of six best friends. I've been with my girlfriend now for seven years. Probably should put a ring on it. I know I'm working on that. But I've said before the end of this year... And here she is! Our last surprise guest!

is! Our last surprise guest!

But yeah, that's the most important thing, yeah. How do you... I feel like a problem that we have is actually protecting our time. Because we went through five, six years of what felt like a lack of opportunity coming our way. And then when we gained some traction, opportunities came our way, and it was, of course, you say yes. You say yes, you say yes, you say yes. And I don't think we've

yes. You say yes, you say yes, you say yes. And I don't think we've been able to get out of that mindset. Really. You know, I mean, like even for us this year, like Samir and I were talking, our homes burned down in January and we both had our first kids. And a couple of weeks later, we were like, yeah, let's do this. I think we could do it. This is the

year. And I don't even know if we have the tools yet. I think we're

year. And I don't even know if we have the tools yet. I think we're learning them. But how do you have the tools and the frameworks to say no

learning them. But how do you have the tools and the frameworks to say no when you... And I'm not saying we should have said no to this, but I'm

when you... And I'm not saying we should have said no to this, but I'm saying, like, how do you... look at opportunities because you obviously have them coming. How

do you know, yes or no? I think maybe this goes back to what I was saying about being really principled. Because that's the great thing about principles. They endure

through different contexts and over time. And I've spent the last, I'd say, decade getting really clear on my principles. I spend a lot of time writing as well. So

before my birthday week, I was in Cape Town alone for 10 days. And all

I did for those 10 days was go through my diary for the last two years, all of the notes that I've made. Some of them are sentences. Some of

them are screenshots. And I converted all of them into chapters for a new book.

And I can't tell you how much having some time away from the portrait so you can see the full picture allows you to understand what to do in those moments. In fact, you know, Ray Dalio said to me this morning, he said the

moments. In fact, you know, Ray Dalio said to me this morning, he said the single most important thing he's done for his success in his entire career, the single most important thing was he spends 20 minutes every morning meditating. And like, if you're not a meditator, that sounds like super wanky. And you think, not for me, that's for the spiritual lot. But it's remarkable how many of the world's most successful entrepreneurs,

innovators, people who you look at and go, how did they see around the corner time and time again? All of them seem to say to me that meditation is the reason. Steve Jobs is a prime example. If you look at the iPhone, the

the reason. Steve Jobs is a prime example. If you look at the iPhone, the iMac, and his decisions, his counterproductive decisions to remove Java, to take away the headphone jack, to remove the keyboard, all of these things that at the time were crazy people talk, You go, that guy could see something others couldn't.

And when you look at his writing, when you speak to Walter Isaacson, who was his biographer and who followed him, who I interviewed, or you speak to Steve Wozniak, who I've met several times, many of them point at the fact that he had a practice where he spent some time in the clouds. Because you're either in the trenches or in the clouds. And sometimes you can feel like you've got the balance

wrong. Like you're just kind of running and saying, yes, no, yes, no. But until

wrong. Like you're just kind of running and saying, yes, no, yes, no. But until

you get into the clouds, you can't actually have a proper framework for what the right decision in most of those situations is. And so I think I have that space, which sounds crazy because I spend a lot of time working. But I also have these moments, whether it's with writing or journaling or writing books, where I get to get up into the clouds and You've mentioned your principles a couple of times.

Yeah. I would love to hear some of them. And we're also in a room full of creators. So if there's like Stephen Bartlett's principles for being a creator in 2025. So I gave you the failure one. The other one I'd say is sweating

2025. So I gave you the failure one. The other one I'd say is sweating the small stuff. The other very popular phrase in our office, some of my team are here, is the phrase 1%. And this kind of dovetails into the idea of experimentation because there should be nothing too small for an experiment. Like, what's the best way for me to describe the 1% rule? I think in life and in business

and as a creator particularly, it's very difficult to find a big step forward. Like,

it's very difficult for you to find a brand new platform that no one has yet to discover, a brand new technology that no one has thought about. So when

you go in pursuit of these big steps forward, the science shows and the psychology shows people get quite demotivated. But when you look at Harvard Business Review's study on when people feel most motivated in work, they gave a room full of people like this, these work diaries, and said, keep a track of everything you do for a week. At the end of the week, people all pointed at a day where they

week. At the end of the week, people all pointed at a day where they had even a small feeling of progress, even if it was tiny. So there's this dual pronged benefit to this 1% idea, which is not only if you aim at the smallest things, if you sweat the small stuff and you create a culture within your team, will you get a psychological motivation

momentum gain? But actually the thing that we'd uncovered is sometimes when you look at

momentum gain? But actually the thing that we'd uncovered is sometimes when you look at small stones and you turn them over, you find really, really big prizes. that you

couldn't quite see because the stone looks small. So there's a particular 10 second change we made to our podcast on YouTube, which had a 300% impact on the amount of subscribers we get. 10 seconds of a three hour, nope.

I thought you were going to ask what it is. It's my event, Stephen. No,

I thought you were going to say, what's the 10 seconds? I was going to say that. We've always kept it secret, but yeah, maybe I'll talk about it.

say that. We've always kept it secret, but yeah, maybe I'll talk about it.

Yeah, I have to think about it. We think he should talk about it. Everyone

thumbs up if you want to hear him say it. That's so funny. I'm hearing

that people would be 3,000 more percent happy if you shared the details. I think

I can share a principle. The problem you have with sharing these things is then everyone does the same thing and it doesn't work anymore. So it's more about the principle. So... So you get a two-pronged benefit, which is

principle. So... So you get a two-pronged benefit, which is sometimes you try really small things and you get these profound gains. And the other thing is the team are more motivated and you're more motivated if you're finding lots of small wins frequently. And then I would say... You've probably

read Atomic Habits, which shows the power of compounding returns. And Sir David Brailsford is a very good friend of mine. He's the first chapter of that book. He's the

guy that came up with the marginal gains effect. He said all of the same things to me. He said that when he went into Team Sky, which was a cycling team that was down and out, and they were leaving the office at 5 p.m., he said to me, he focused not on some revolutionary new approach, but on

p.m., he said to me, he focused not on some revolutionary new approach, but on making the pillows more comfortable, making the water bottles a little bit bigger. tweaking the

rider's psychology. And he found so many of these small gains that it had a profound impact to the point that they won five out of six Tour de France's the next year, a team that were depressed. But he said to me privately, he said they stopped leaving the office at 5 p.m. and they would stay in the bike shop till 2 to 3 p.m. in the morning. That is the power of

the progress principle, which is tapped into when you focus on the tiny gains, which most of your competitors won't care about. Jemima's over there somewhere. Jemima changed the candle and like the air freshener, her team, in the diary of a CEO set, and she posted it in Slack and people dropped fire emojis and claps on it.

There was a little laugh in the audience somewhere. That is the advantage. Because when

you say that, that we celebrate changing the air freshener, it sounds like super petty.

It's so petty, in fact, that your competitors won't do it. They'll look at that small pebble and go, not that one. We need to find something bigger. But the

crazy thing is when Danielette walked into the set, he goes, I love the smell.

It had a game. When we started testing the CO2 levels in the room to see if we kept them below a thousand parts per million, would the science hold that it changes your cognitive performance? The Telegraph did a piece saying that if it gets above a thousand parts per million, which is just like me and you in a room for one hour, then it's like having a pint of beer. So how

are you going to remember that framework that I need from my audience? And how

am I going to remember that important question I had to ask you if we've both had a beer? So we introduced the CO2 monitor. The music when they walk in, super petty. But why don't we research the music that Israel Adesanya, the UFC champion, wants that's going to make him feel relaxed because he's probably a little bit nervous coming here today. So we found Nipsey Hussle's Double Up. And the first thing

Israel Adesanya said when he walked in, man, I love this song. We know. It

takes him back to his childhood. I've watched videos of him on YouTube before he arrived of him listening to that song in the top tiers of a stadium and breaking down and crying, getting really emotional because it reminds him of where he came from. It's hard to find a big step forward. It's hard to motivate for a

from. It's hard to find a big step forward. It's hard to motivate for a long period of time a group of people to pursue big leaps forward. It's much

easier if you create a culture where you sweat the small stuff and you celebrate pettiness. you get all the gains. You get all the gains of motivation,

pettiness. you get all the gains. You get all the gains of motivation, momentum. You find incremental leaps, and that's the strategy. And

momentum. You find incremental leaps, and that's the strategy. And

as you heard from the giggle, your competitors won't do it. And isn't that easier than me coming up here and telling you that there's some AI coding thing that you need to learn? It's just like care more about the smaller things than anyone you think you're currently competing with, and then be patient. And if you do that, then all you need is time. And that's what compounding shows us, right? 1% gain

over time, disproportionate outcome, like inequitable outcome. So

that's one. Yeah. You're not going to ask me the 10 second one. I like

that a lot. I love that. That's amazing. That's really cool. Thank you. I'll tell

you what it was. Yeah. I'll tell you what it was. Basically, the principle here is if someone's heard something over and over again, the science shows that they, through this process called semantic satiation, the word and the phrase loses its meaning. So if

I said to you, father, father, father, father, father, father, father, father, father, father, father, eventually that started to sound like a sound. and the meaning had come out of the word. And with certain words like warning, warning, warning, warning, warning, warning, because they're

the word. And with certain words like warning, warning, warning, warning, warning, warning, because they're a little bit more neurologically curious, the meaning stays in the word longer. So the

10 second thing that I was saying is whenever you have a call to action, just make sure it's not something that the brain hasn't already turned into wallpaper.

And as creators, we all say the same things. We all say the same things. But they've shown through history, like the word revolution first appeared in a magazine.

things. But they've shown through history, like the word revolution first appeared in a magazine.

It was like 60, 70 years ago. And it was describing like wars and like civil unrest. And then they went through this magazine 50 years. And by the end

civil unrest. And then they went through this magazine 50 years. And by the end of it, it was used to describe sofas, like this revolutionary new sofa. The word

has lost its meaning over time. So its efficacy, its ability to get people to click, to subscribe, to move has lost all of its power. So stay away from cliché. is the principle. I didn't even have to pry that out of you. Yeah,

cliché. is the principle. I didn't even have to pry that out of you. Yeah,

yeah. That was great. Yeah, I mean, I would assume that, you know, this is a very niche thing, but I, and my wife was not that interested in it when I talked to her about it, but she loves your show. And I was like, did you hear his most recent ad read for Stan? It was so good because he was led into it totally differently. And I feel like the words, this

video is sponsored by, or thank you to us, like that has lost its meaning.

Right. Or it's lost. It's like, as you, as you described, it's wallpaper. And you

have to find a new way in because otherwise it's, you're in a sea of thousands of those phrases and those words. I love that. I think that's fantastic. And

obviously in a world of chat GPT, are we going to get more or less wallpaper? Like the spelling mistake is so back. Right. Honestly, I was writing an

wallpaper? Like the spelling mistake is so back. Right. Honestly, I was writing an email on the way here. And I went through the email and like had to uncapitalize some of the letters, make a couple of grammatical mistakes because I genuinely thought that they wouldn't believe that I wrote it. And even on my LinkedIn now, like I'm intentionally making grammatical errors because it's now becoming the signature that a human being

did it. And actually, when you just had that ad example of this video is

did it. And actually, when you just had that ad example of this video is sponsored by, the minute your brain hears this video is sponsored by, off. And like,

why do you say this video is sponsored by? We say that because that's what everyone has said before us. And if you look at your whole life through that lens, like, am I just doing this because other people did this a decade ago?

And I haven't pushed on this wall to check if it's made of paper yet, which is one of the chapters that I just wrote in Cape Town called Pushing on Paper Walls. Um... then your life will be like radically different. Your marriage will be different. Your friendships will be different. Your business will be different. You'll make a

be different. Your friendships will be different. Your business will be different. You'll make a new thing. Your podcast will be different. I mean, look at like controversial name these

new thing. Your podcast will be different. I mean, look at like controversial name these days, but look at Elon Musk. The reason why he says he's been able to build the Teslas and the SpaceX's is because he's just pushed on every paper wall.

When they told him that rockets couldn't be reusable and land on themselves, he said, why? No one says why. No one says why when their brand partner sends them

why? No one says why. No one says why when their brand partner sends them an ad read and says, read this. They go, yep. So if you just develop this principle of constantly checking if things are paper walls, I promise you, you'll make unbelievably, shockingly unique feeling looking stuff. And you will piss a couple people off.

But it doesn't really matter because like the game of life, I think, is to piss as many people off as you need to piss off to not piss off yourself or to disappoint as many people as you need to disappoint to not disappoint yourself. And so, yeah. How are you able to functionally

yourself. And so, yeah. How are you able to functionally push across all of these different aspects of your company and your show? Everything from

the smallest pebble to the air freshener up to, I'm sure, landing the biggest guests and deciding about some of these bigger deals and where to move the company. Who

is around you that is able to make sure that all of this happens and runs? It's a really great question. And I think you kind of answered it, which

runs? It's a really great question. And I think you kind of answered it, which is like, it's the who again. It's the people in... really no matter what business you're in or what you're doing, I actually don't need to know to know that this is probably the right answer, is all things, whether you're a creator or an entrepreneur, come down to your ability to get the world's

best people to come and join you and then the culture you bind them with.

So when we talk about people, it's can I get really great people? And then

when I talk about culture, I mean all the principles. It's like, what would they do if I wasn't in the room and they had to make the decision. So

it's so funny because Jack, who's here as well, Jack, where you at? Is he

here? Got bored and left. He's had all this shit before. Jack's here somewhere. Well,

Jack was, oh, there you are. Jack was just saying to me in the studio, he was saying, it's so funny how this culture of experimentation has like spread across the company now because we have lots of new podcasts and lots of new shows.

We've got, you know, 80, 90 people in the UK who are starting completely new shows. And his observation was, it's so amazing that those people are acting in the

shows. And his observation was, it's so amazing that those people are acting in the exact same way. And my response to him about an hour ago when we were in the studio was, yeah, at the very beginning, those first 10 people are like the cordial induced. Do you know what I mean? Like you pour the water in after and it dilutes. But if you get those first 10 people right, the 11th

person becomes like the 10th. But what happens a lot is people like the foundations, the first 10 people, they make mistakes. Culturally, in terms of work ethic, in terms of like values. And that is what's going to scale. That 10,

that seed is what's going to grow. So I joke that my actual job in this company is I'm head of recruitment because I sign off all the hires. I wrote the interview form. I spend so much of my time headhunting.

the hires. I wrote the interview form. I spend so much of my time headhunting.

The CEO of our media company in the UK tells the story that she saw a post I did on LinkedIn. They replied to it. I responded within 30 minutes.

And then within 30 minutes, I added myself to their calendar. And they didn't think that I'd be that involved in recruitment. There's so many people that know, like I'll call them on a Saturday. They've applied 30 minutes earlier. The most important thing in the game that everyone in this room is playing, including me, is recruitment. And if

I look at your calendar now, and I don't see you spending 20 to 30 hours this week on finding truly exceptional people to come and join you in whatever you're doing, then I think you've misallocated your time. Because if I then say to you, do you agree with the statement that everything you accomplish is going to be downstream from a human being's brain? The thumbnail you choose,

the commercial deals you sign, the office you take, the strategy you adopt. Can we

all agree that comes from a person's brain? So if that is true, then the thing that's going to move the needle for you most in terms of your trajectory is your ability to get the best brains in the building and then get the best out of them by binding them with a culture that makes them do the best work of their life. The simple first principles of business, being a creator, whatever

else, building a creative business, hiring, and culture. Yeah.

I want to ask you about... Well, on that, I think team is super interesting.

I got added on LinkedIn by one Anthony Smith, who's the director of trailers at Flight Store. I thought it was so interesting that we have a pod where we

Flight Store. I thought it was so interesting that we have a pod where we do that opening montage, and we don't have an opening montage department. But I thought it was really interesting to see that you specialize quite a

department. But I thought it was really interesting to see that you specialize quite a bit. Now, I want to ask you about something that you guys do that is

bit. Now, I want to ask you about something that you guys do that is one of the most unique things that I think you guys do, which is the pre-watch system. Can you explain that to everyone? Because I find that to be fascinating.

pre-watch system. Can you explain that to everyone? Because I find that to be fascinating.

Yeah, no one's ever asked me that before either. So, you know, you get this retention graph back after you've published something. What if you could get it before? Which

was like the thought, like, what if we could get that retention graph before so we knew what was boring before we published? Like, wouldn't that be a great thing?

So the TLDR of it, we built a tool that does that. So, you know, this week we just had someone on the show Um, and it ended up being a five hour conversation and it's like very, in all honesty, like I didn't do a great job. It's quite messy subjects all over the place. So before we publish it, we will run tests to figure out what parts of it are interesting by

getting, you know, a couple of thousand people in our audience to watch it. And

then with the tool we have, it tracks their eyes while they're watching it with their permission, of course, um, And so if they look away, if they get bored, if they like a part that they watch, they can hit the space bar and it does a little confetti thing. And then we get this wonderful graph back and it says, well, everybody's dropping off here and people drop off here and people drop

off here. And when Steve talked for too long, people dropped off there. So get

off here. And when Steve talked for too long, people dropped off there. So get

all those parts out and make it highly retentive. Again, it's the same principle of experimentation. Can we kill the guesswork in any element of what we're currently doing? Is

experimentation. Can we kill the guesswork in any element of what we're currently doing? Is

there a way to not guess? And... You've only got to do this a little bit to realize, like, I've heard Mr. Beast say on your show before, like, how annoyed he is that so much of success comes down to, like, a few variables, like the thumbnail. Because you wish it would be, like, oh, no, the art of it or the romance or how much effort I put in. But it's sometimes

these annoyingly, like, 70%, 80% of the success can come down to, like, two factors.

And so the game is, can I not guess on those two factors? And just

to give you a flavor... of the variance in guessing. I always remember this one episode where we did some testing and the best performing experiment drove a 20% click through and the worst performing guess drove a 1% click through. That is the same two and a half months of trying to get this

through. That is the same two and a half months of trying to get this person to come on the show. It's the same effort from all of my team, the same financial commitment, the same three hours interviewing this person. But the

variance, because I ran a $100 test, was 1,900% increase in performance. So you think about that logically and go, is there anything really more important

performance. So you think about that logically and go, is there anything really more important and influential than this testing system? And again, the reason why a lot of people won't want to do it is because of the romance piece. Right. Love that. So...

Going into this, I was so curious, you know, which direction we were going to take this conversation. I actually put into co-pilot, I said, what would Stephen Bartlett ask Stephen Bartlett? Have you ever done that? Very deep questions.

Stephen Bartlett? Have you ever done that? Very deep questions.

But I just, there was one that was really concise and simple that I wanted to ask you. And we talked a little bit about your past and, you know, your childhood. The question is, if your younger self If that kid in the Arctic

your childhood. The question is, if your younger self If that kid in the Arctic Monkeys shirt, younger self could see you today, would he be proud or disappointed? Oh, yeah. He'd be, he'd be, um...

disappointed? Oh, yeah. He'd be, he'd be, um...

I'm going to tell you the most bizarre story to answer this question. He

would, he would, he probably wouldn't feel anything because I'm, Because at 14, roughly that age, he had this really interesting vision of being sat in New York at this desk, running a company with his feet up. And at the time, the context there is like, we had no money in my family. We lived in Plymouth. Plymouth is

like, I don't know the equivalent in the US, but people don't really leave Plymouth.

Me and one of our team members who happens to be from Plymouth were joking.

They're like, how the fuck are we both in New York? People don't leave Plymouth.

So he had an idea that he would be doing something like this. And this is why I say that, you know, in terms of my skills, like my raw skills and talent, it's like really doesn't exist. Not

good at spelling, not good at maths, which is when people use the word analytical, I get quite surprised because I'm like, oh, that's like a compliment I never thought someone would say to me. Wasn't good in school. But the most important thing was I had self-belief, which came to me because my parents weren't around. And I had to do things for myself. And in that void of independence, I started doing things.

And at 14, 15, I learned this unbelievable lesson that you can have an idea and there's nothing in the way of it. So I remember being 16 and thinking, so vividly thinking, if next week someone said to me, you need to get to the moon, my default at that age is there's a way. I need to figure out what spaceships are going to the moon. I need to send them a cold

email. I worked in telesales from 16 till 19. which gives you a little bit

email. I worked in telesales from 16 till 19. which gives you a little bit of resilience as well. And I believe there's a way. And I can't, and the story, the crazy story I'm going to tell you is actually something that happened last week with my friends, my best friends in LA over a game of paddle. There's

four of us playing paddle. I have a, I play a lot, so I was in the first place. And then my friend Logan was second, my friend Oliver was third, and my friend Ash was fourth. He was by far the worst at paddle.

And I sat down and I watched him play, and I was watching his shots.

And I said to my friends, I was like, he's only missing the easy shots.

Like the really, really hard shots, he's amazing. His service is amazing, but he's missing all the easy shots. So when Ash came and sat down next to me, I said this to him, I said, you're missing the easy shots. So what I need you to do is every single time, whether you win a point or you lose a point, Say this in your head. Say, that doesn't matter. That point doesn't matter.

I'm a better player than him. Just say that to yourself after every single point.

I swear on my mother's life. He went out. He beat me. He's never in my life beat me. He then beat Logan. He then beat Oliver. He then did doubles. And if you ever have Ash on your team, you lose doubles. Everyone that

doubles. And if you ever have Ash on your team, you lose doubles. Everyone that

had Ash on their team won doubles. And Ash said, it's changed in my brain.

And all he was doing was reminding, like basically installing temporary self-belief in a moment when rejection can send you on a spiral. And like, I swear to you, since then, since last week, I'm doing that every single day, all the time. And I say this because it's kind of what happened to me at 16.

time. And I say this because it's kind of what happened to me at 16.

I learned that. Or at least I didn't learn disbelief. And you kind of go one of two ways. You either learn belief or you learn disbelief. And both of them become a self-reinforcing cycle. Either upwards, you try things you probably shouldn't try.

Getting vending machines in my school for free that I actually made revenue from at 16 years old. It goes well. People clap. So you try more things you shouldn't try. And you become on this... positive reinforcing upward cycle. But some people at a

try. And you become on this... positive reinforcing upward cycle. But some people at a very young age, they end up going the other way where they might've tried something or had their confidence knocked. So they don't really try wholeheartedly. And even if they do, they interpret it that it went badly, like my friend Ash, which makes their performance worse. And they find themselves in this downward negative reinforcing cycle. So, so

performance worse. And they find themselves in this downward negative reinforcing cycle. So, so

maybe you should try that win or loss. You should try to have a little, you know, kind of like what Ray was saying to me this morning, a little practice where you, you, You keep belief in your mind. And lastly, Roger Federer, who's arguably the best tennis player of all time, I remember his commencement speech where he said that in his entire career, you know, the best ever, he said, I've lost

42% of the points I've ever played. Which means almost half. Almost

half of the time, Roger Federer loses the point. But he's the best to ever do it. It doesn't make mathematical sense, but he said the key thing is what

do it. It doesn't make mathematical sense, but he said the key thing is what happens when I lose, which is... Fuck it. Next point. Learn from that one. Fuck

it. Next point. Don't carry it with you into the next point. And that's ultimately what my friend Ash has now learned, which is scary because he's now better than me. But it's also what I had at 16, which is remarkable because we

me. But it's also what I had at 16, which is remarkable because we underestimate the power of the mind. I deeply love that.

I deeply, deeply love that. I think often about goalies in any sport. So like a soccer goalie or I played lacrosse, a lacrosse goalie or a hockey goalie. Like the premise isn't that they're going to stop every shot. That is not the premise of being a goalie. If you're in goal,

every shot. That is not the premise of being a goalie. If you're in goal, it's going to happen. They're going to score. But you have to have a short memory and get back up and stand up there. And it might even be like a blowout. It might be 10-0. And you still have to stand up there and

a blowout. It might be 10-0. And you still have to stand up there and try and do it better. So I think often about that as well. But I

absolutely love that, especially in the context of being a creative. So, Stephen,

I just want to say thank you so much for making the time for us.

Thank you. Thank you. Stephen Bartlett,

everybody.