The Root Cause of Metabolic Dysfunction w/ Dr. Casey Means

we are saying you can put these in foods for kids the phrase we're going to use is generally recognized as safe kids are dying their mortgages are paid by demonizing what I am talking about the

biggest mistake we're making is we're eating Ultra processed food we lose and then rebirth like 600 billion cells per day on this week's episode of my podcast

I sat down with the one and only Casey means she has an incredible story that we talk about a little bit in this podcast she went on after medical school at Stanford to a residency at Stanford in ear nose and throat surgery and

actually ended up leaving that residency in her Fifth and final year because she became so disillusioned with the medical system and its failure to treat the root cause of the things that are making us sick this is a really fascinating

conversation with Casey she's recently been on a lot of really awesome podcasts for Carlson Joe Rogan's podcast and we got a little more technical than she usually does in this one we talked about

metabolic Health metabolic dysfunction what causes metabolic dysfunction and how to correct it both Casey and I strongly believe that at the root of so many of The Chronic issues that we suffer from today as westerners is

metabolic dysfunction so if metabolic dysfunction also known as insulin resistance is causing us to be sick what's causing that and how do we reverse it this is an incredibly information packed conversation with

Casey if you want to learn more about her views and this Central nature of metabolic Health you can check out her new book which is called good energy it's been I think a New York Times number one bestseller for the last 20 weeks which is incredible and yes I know

I've been away from podcast Cas in for a little while I've been working on a documentary on food quality and metabolic Health myself I've been working on content and trying to get them some surfing on the side so enjoy this podcast with Casey means I know

that you're going to learn a lot from this one guys Dr Casey means thank you so much for coming on the podcast so good to be here I just wanted to say from the outset that I am super impressed and wanted to thank you for all the work that you're doing in the

world because what I've seen recently has just really been sort of this Wellspring of like good things coming from what you and cie are doing and I think it's really affecting the world in a positive way so thank you so much oh

my gosh right back at you you've been on beating this drum for years trying yes trying so for people who are not familiar with your story I mean recently you've been on Rogan you've been on Tucker carlon's podcast you've been

really getting the message out there but for someone who's not familiar with your story can you tell us share a little bit of your story with the audience and we'll go from there because there's an incredible story here and an awesome set of jumping off points yeah absolutely

well I think in many ways there's some parallels to your own story like I trained as a medical doctor conventional system went to Stanford Medical School and you know starting

early in medical school even before I went to surgical residency for I was I trained in ear noos and throat had a neck surgery I started seeing like cracks in the facade I the first thing

for me actually that really kind of made me scratch my head was the fact that we were learning all about cardiovascular health um and all the pharmacology and physiology of you know heart disease which is the number one killer in the

United States in a window dark Subterranean room where we sat for 8 hours a day and then the only time we left that dark Subterranean room uh was to go to the cafeteria that was filled

with total junk food and I thought this doesn't quite seem right you know and I would go home and cook all my food and have a standing desk in my my apartment at medical school and then I would come to medical school and it was like this

totally unhealthy environment and this was in a new building at Stanford called the Le Leah Shing Center that was like the most expensive building ever built at Stanford and was donated by this very

wealthy Hong Kong philanthropist and yet it was literally the the building itself that the future doctors of America were being trained in was promoting the most unhealthy cardiovascularly devastating

lifestyle you could possibly imagine so Flash Forward I then and I actually did a huge petition and research study on bringing standing desks into the classrooms I write about this in my book

and the administration completely shot me down and said this is ridiculous and I actually did a 2-year IRB approved fun research project on whether medical students would benefit from standing desk in classrooms and it was

unequivocally yes and they still shot it down long story short went to residency now I'm in this surgical world I think I'm such a badass I'm a surgeon and and

I am like four and a half years into my training um about to launch as a faculty surgeon I was thinking about taking a

job at Kaiser and I it was there was something about leaving residency where you're still kind of sheltered and being a full-fledged independent billing

surgeon where I I was starting to feel a ton of friction like wait like I don't know if I can do this because what I was realizing is that like my salary for the rest of my life was going to be based on

how many surgeries I could actually do and that there was Zero incentive for me as a doctor or a surgeon to actually make patients healthy and when I started

going down that Roose I realized wait I've actually not been taught that there's a difference between doing surgery and a healthy patient but those are different things one is there to to

really truly create a healthy patient you're changing the physiology in their cells and there's no surgery that can change the physiology inside your cells so this started opening of a Pandora's

box that has now led to a seven-year Journey that has of course changed every aspect of my life uh to understanding that what is actually happening in the

American Body today is very consistent across the population and across the ages there is a set of core physiologic disturbances caused by our modern diet

and environment that are destroying our foundational metabolic Health the way we make energy in our cells and this is showing up in our 200 different cell types as all these different diseases we're actually fundamentally the same

thing it's what I call the trifecta of metabolic dysfunction or bad energy oxy of stress chronic inflammation mitochondrial dysfunction these invisible processes that we don't learn about we don't really have good tests

for that are happening that all the research if you look from a root cause lens shows us this is happening in you know this is happening in uh prostate cancer this is happening in depression this is happening in Alzheimer's this

happening ADHD this is happening in autism it's happening in infertility it's happening in endothal dysfunction it's happening all over the body we're not talking about it we're not treating it we're not changing the environmental

factors we're paid to ignore it and I had to change my life so I quit I quit my surgical residency and I devoted my life to spreading the word and continuing toar learn about the root

cause of why Americans are sick and because America is so powerful and so influential the reasons why Americans are getting sick is also becoming the reasons why the entire world is getting

sick then you know really redpilling it was like I realized that oh actually all the reasons we're sick they're environmental it's food it's it's our diet it's our lifestyle it's we're sitting too much we're not seeing

sunlight we're exposed to all these unregulated toxins our emotional health is poor the technolog is destroying our dopamine systems all this stuff and then realizing actually all a lot of the reasons we're sick are also the reasons

why our Earth is sick the reasons why our soil is sick the reasons why we're sort of destroying our oceans and our it's all unsustainable it's all connected no one's talking about it so of course as I went down that journey I

learned about people like yourself and there are many other people actually talking about this in healthcare and outside of healthare and I just don't think there's anything more important that we could be discussing or thinking about today than the increasingly poor

human health on planet Earth caused by our environment that's destroying our core foundational processes of how we make energy and how that's interrelated to the destruction of the planet that is the most existential issue of our time

so that's kind of my journey I love it and you have talked about this so eloquently in your book which is called good energy and I love this idea that you are really helping to distill for people that so many of these diseases

that we suffer from are metabolic dysfunction at the core yeah something that I was not taught in medical school how many nutrition classes did you have at Stanford Medical School zero yeah no we had a

lecture which was by Dr Christopher Gardner who you may know yes I'm familiar with him's a big plant-based Advocate and but but but a dedicated researcher and we had basically like a

little seminar on like a Wednesday where he talked to us about a paper about how garlic extract was not shown to impact uh heart disease outcomes and that was

the nutrition uh research that I got in medical school that that is a nutrition education I got at sanre Medical School it was a it was a lecture about garlic and heart disease and there's a whole Center for nutrition studies at Stanford

right which is kind of funded by Beyond me or something this was at the center of this twin documentary recently on Netflix right yeah I don't know too much about that actually I'd be interested to learn more about that I know there was a documentary but I didn't realize it was

funded by that Stanford's being funded by beond me I'm pretty sure we can fact check this for the podcast but I'm pretty sure and this is a separate thing I've talked about in the past we don't have to go too far down this rabbit hole but there was this recent Netflix

documentary about this twin studies right and they brought in two they brought in Twins and they fed them one of them was a omnivorous diet and one of them was a plant-based diet and they happened to give the plant-based diet

people less calories so they lost less weight surprising surpris like yeah anyway the whole thing was a little bit a little bit misleading I thought but I'm pretty sure I know Christopher Gardner is a plant-based person and

we'll talk more about that later in the podcast I have no issue with that other than the fact that that should probably be disclosed in a movie that is about meat versus not meat and if the premise of the movie is that maybe not eating

meat is healthier that should probably be part of it and I'm pretty sure that Center Stanford has a lot of funding from like beyond meat or some of these other things so anyway that's interesting I want to highlight a few

things that you said there your um your head in uh neck surgeon residency is five years five years and you left after four and a half years four and a few months so you you were basically in the

home stretch oh yeah oh yeah I was right in the home stretch I was about to take sign a job offer and I I just was

starting to ask questions and then as I brought up some those concerns like why aren't we talking about nutrition why are we ignoring all these papers that talk about the impact well they're not

in the guidelines they're not in the guidelines we got to follow the guidelines and then realizing anything you ask about where you you can find all this medical research on the impact of

diet on chronic inflammation and you know the impact of mitochondrial dysfunction on chronic sinusitis and and and all these things but the the blanket statement that anyone will say if you try and say like why don't we practice

this way is it's poor quality quity research it's poor quality research you know no you know what I'm saying like it's not the double blind Placebo control peer review and it's like and and so but then when you step back

further you're like okay well first of all there's very little incentive for people to do research on environmental factors that's there's no one to fund it right it's not and and the nature of our highest tier of evidence which is a

double blind randomized Placebo controlled trial those by almost by definition lead us to a pharmaceutical intervention because how can you have a

placebo and a you know intervention if it's not something that's just a pill that you don't know what's in need you can't really randomize exercise because you know exactly what you're doing or you know you can't but it's so I I kind

of just started going down this Rabbit Hole okay there's all this research that I'm not being taught about that I'm not it's not being serviced surfaced surfaced I have to dig for it on my own then I bring it up and bring it to you

know my superiors and say like why aren't we talking about this you know like an anti-inflammatory diet for an inflammatory condition that we're treating with steroids and surgery and it's like oh well that's that's not part of the guidelines and it's poor quality

research and it's like well it's poor quality research because of these systemic factors so like what do we do here do we blindly follow the science

and the guidelines which is not leading to healthier Americans or do we break out of the sort of militaristic regimented frankly cult that we're a

part of and put pieces together put dots together but that's not that's actually not what we're incentivized to do that's dangerous because if you start looking at the research and as an individual

have the hubris to think I might be able to put dots together and do things differently one you're not part of the pack right you're not part of the the tribe two you open yourself up to like

litigation because if you do things differently that's that's risky um and three you're ridiculed like because you're you're basically the nutrition wacko who you thinks you're too good for

all of this and you're questioning the Dogma so there are so many cultural forces in medicine that are like stay in your lane practice the guidelines oh also we're not going to pay you for

outcomes we're going to pay you for volume so do it as quickly as possible and your promotion is also partially dependent on how much you Bill so you

know it's so all of this I'm just like what I I started getting a little radicalized and that's why I had the the sort of the Gusto to quit because I

thought as I went down this path I realized I am I'm like trapped in a multi-dimensional web of which trillions of dollars are incentivized to have me

be myopically focused on a single way of seeing the body and practicing and while I'm in trapped in that web Americans are

getting sicker every single year it's not working there I've heard you talk about some statistics regarding Pharma funding for medical education in general or is this for residencies like what is

this how much of what we learned in medical school I guess a lot of it is from Pharma funded research but does does Pharma actually fund things at Stanford or parts of residencies yeah well it's actually hard to find the

exact information but Rob lustig you know professor emeritus of neuroendocrinology at UCSF um he believes that based on his research 80% of medical schools underwritten by

pharmaceutical companies I I can't say I have you know it's hard this is like kind of putting pieces together yourself but when I was at Stamford they received

a $3 million Grant from fizer for educational reform for for curriculum development and they funded by F funded by fizer $3 million and this is when I

was there I believe it was 2011 if you look up the Articles from that time when we took the grant when Stanford took the grant um also the dean at the time was Phil piso who's a pain specialist and of

course fizer makes opioids and um he was actually the head of an NIH panel to reform the opioid guidelines at the time so it's just like oh my God this is crazy so $3 million Grant and if you

look at the papers from that or the the Articles written about this at the time they all are so quick to say but it was a no strings attached Grant there was

there was no they very clear there are no expectations that that fizer will have any influence on the curriculum but what people don't really get I mean I think when you're more in the industry you realize like everything's kind of

about like who who's your friend who's your F you know if you're if you're in cah yeah maybe maybe fizer is not saying you need to put this in the curriculum but there's this friendly favorability

you know when you're kind of starting to get interl I remember this from residency we used to have these device developers take us out to dinner all the time and I don't know if you had this in

your residency but like there was this nasal stent company that had a basically after you did sinus surgery you could you could stick this stent up in the

open sinuses that would release steroids and they loved us and they would take us out to Fogo toia like all the time and we had the best time ever we would like

as residents it's like you know how it is you're like looking for some way to burn off steam so we'd have wine and we'd have steak and we'd hear about the new research on this nasal stent well when you're in the operating room like

were they like when you're in the operating room and you're the resident and also probably in the operating room with you is the friend from that company the rep who's like was at dinner with you and now they're in the operating

with you and they're like this would be anaz this is exactly the time when we would like throw in a stent and you're like oh let's do it like I totally forgot yeah yeah let's do it so all of a

sudden it's it's not nefarious it's not a bad necessarily like bad vibes it's just like you form relationships and I think when that starts being bigger and

bigger and bigger money then it really starts to change the way we practice but you know it's Insidious it's Insidious and it's relationship based and I don't necessarily think it's like an evil Puppet Master thing I think it's like

these are publicly traded companies that have quarterly earnings they need to meet and we're trying to become sort of friends with everyone and the medical schools and the Deans and the residents so that we can kind of all move towards

the outcome we want which is more fiser drugs prescribed more nasal stun prescribed etc etc so but that's just to paint a picture I've never shared that exact anecdote ever before but like of

how it can kind of like Get get its little claws in you and all of a sudden you're putting nasal stance in all your sinus patients it's we're human yeah and of course you kind of want to support your friend if you believe this is the right thing to do good thing data is

good it's supported by the data let's do it like this is the word you use that I think is so accurate is it's just Insidious yeah and I think farman knows what they're doing there's no question these companies know they're smart yeah

I mean when I was so I was a PA in cardiology before I went back to medical school in residency when I was a PA in cardiology this happened all the time right there were dinners from fizer I actually kind of drank the Kool-Aid I

spoke for lipor so I did talks stop no I did I was a PA and I was like this is good money on the side right and I'm doing the right thing and I'm a respected PA like I can look at the

slides that fizer gives me and tell other mid-levels nurse practitioners Pas some doctors about the data on lipor about a toist Statin you know 15 years ago or 12 or 14 years ago when I was working as a PA in cardiology I thought

I was doing a cool thing yeah like I'm now the PA doing a talk at one of these pharmaceutical diners here I am now I'm the puppet right and fiser pulling my strings doing the liur stuff and that happened all the time they would take us to dinner there were other reps that

would come in that became friends with me hey why don't you give this person some more supplemental oxygen or something so it it all happens that way yeah it does oh my God it's making me

like we once a couple of our residents we flew to Vegas for free one weekend post call paid for by a company and I forget what the it was something with

lasers but it was like a laser something for some type of surgery we were put up at the Four Seasons and we just like had the best weekend of our lives and then they are so intentional the rep will

always be in the operating with you after they've invested in you the rep will be there and it's like they're like let's grab you know and it's like it's so Insidious they also would get because we were your nose and throat which has

facial Plastics as part of it we would be sent tens of thousands of dollars of Botox and fillers from um the company that makes them I think it's Allergan and the residents I don't even know if

they were sending it to the attendance they were sending it to the residents because they want the residents to kind of get hooked on their brand early then the residents would actually set up workshops where we would we got all this

free product we the nurse we'd offer for all the nurses to come and basically let us like practice and that then of course forged these wonderful relationships with like the nursing staff and like we're the residents who are like giving

everyone free boto and it's just like then all of a sudden you're a person who has this wonderful set of experiences around this product Oh it helped me Forge relationships with other people in

the hospital and my face looks great because we were putting Botox in each other and it's like we're saving so much money by getting all these free samples and then all of a sudden you know all

that it's like fine except for the fact that you're in this swirl and this orbit and it's all preventing you from looking

up and looking around and realizing oh my God almost every single condition I'm treating in my specialty is an inflammatory condition and the only

tools I'm using are drugs and surgery and yet drugs and surgery can't do anything to change the physiology that's leading to inflammation in the first place and what I'm doing is not doing

anything to affect the root causes so it's just I'm trying to paint the picture of like there is a swirl that you're caught up in that has Industries fingers all over it and all and you're working your ass off hours a week or

more yeah and then there is literally no incentive nothing no training no time no education no incentive to look up and look around and be like Rome is burning

Rome is burning this patient has come back four times for the same issue we're not getting to the root cause where there's nothing pushing you to do that

you have to basically rip rip the Matrix cord to do that and that's scary and there's a lot tied up in you not doing

that so it's just it's a wild world and until I got fully out of it I could I saw it clearly only when I could see it as an observer it was the same way when

I was in cardiology the cardiologist would literally mime to me think here a box around the heart this is what you think about think here and granted I'm a PA at the time I'm not an MD right I went back to medical school and then I

did my residency in Psychiatry at the University of Washington and it was the exact same thing in Psychiatry I would say to the attendings what is causing anxiety we don't know what about

neuroinflammation and their eyes would just go blank and then you like even in residency and this was probably the beginning of the end for me you could do I could do like a little Pub men five

minutes you know mitochondrial dysfunction right mitochondrial dysfunction and schizophrenia mitochondrial dysfunction depression a ton yeah neuroinflammation you know

switching of the mitochondria or the switching of the phenotypes of the uh the micral cells in the brain the brain derived macrophases we have inflammation in the brain in depression we have inflammation in the brain in

schizophrenia where's that coming from right they just no not a single attending in my residency could answer the question or or challenged me to even think about the question but I was just

curious and I remember I gave a talk my the last year of my residency and I stood in front of a room it was a grand rounds at Harborview which is one of the main hospitals in Seattle and where we got some of the sickest patients because

it's like downtown Seattle we would see florid psychosis massive drug withdrawals and people would come in with Incredible suicidality and and just really really intense neuroinflammation

and I asked a room full full of attendings residents and and uh medical students what is inflammation and like really no one could answer me and I mean not that I'm

so preeminently intelligent I was just thinking a little bit differently than them and and had done some research and tried to wrestle with this myself so is not surgery this is not this is surgery

Cardiology Rheumatology it's every specialty in medicine specialy which is why I love what you're saying here yeah so let's let's talk about this because if if everything is metabolic

dysfunction I really want to just drill down on this to give listeners as much value as possible how do we correct what what is causing metabolic dysfunction and I think that the crazy thing here is

we know like so if everything is metabolic dysfunction and by everything I'm sort of saying that yeah H that's a little bit of hyperbole right because there are certain like single nucleotide polymorphisms that create like CLE cell

anemia and that's probably not that's not caused by the environment there are genetic things H disease there are toxins in the environment if the vast majority of the chronic diseases chronic disease that most of us suffer from that

affect our quality of life our children's quality of lives our parents quality of lives if this is mostly metabolic dysfunction what causes it and how do we reverse it oh my gosh so as I

did this research that you have done as well and really looked like okay if it's the if it's the mitochondrial dysfunction that's it's an energy problem that we have in our bodies

essentially all the diseases that we're dealing with this is a key point for people to understand we have 22 200 plus cell types in our body we

have retinal cells endothelial cells hepatocytes reenal cell all these different cells they all need energy to function properly they all need gas in the car to do the work they need to do

to be a functioning cell and so any different cell type A retinal cell an endothelial cell um an ovarian Thea cell if it's underpowered because it's a different type of cell it's going to

look like a different symptom in the ovary an underpowered cell that can't do its work properly may look like polycystic ovarian syndrome leading cause of female infertility if an endothelial blood vessel cell in the

penis isn't making energy properly can't dilate and constrict properly that could look like a reptile dysfunction if it's happening in as site or a gal cell or a prefrontal cortex neuron it could look

like migraines Alzheimer's dementia depression anxiety chronic pain if it's happening in a heart myosite it could look like heart failure and this is what the data is showing us it is showing up

in these different places like different things because fundamentally the distress of a different cell type is going to look like different symptoms but that doesn't mean it's a different

disease this is the key thesis so what so right now evidence is showing us that about 93.2% of American adults have metabolic

dysfunction have this underpowering fundamental issue and that what's causing that is is usually some Confluence of what I mentioned before the mitochondria that actually make the

energy being damaged this machine that makes the power makes the gas has a problem functioning that can be to a lot of different things that underpowering and distress leads the immune system to

get revved up because what could be more inflammatory to a body than cells that can't do their work they're sending out distress signals and then the immune system tries to help but the immune system can't help because it's the

problem is caused by the environment they can't take the doughnut out of your hand and so you get this stew of chronic inflammation trying to help these distressed underpowered cells but they're impotent in the face of the

threats and then you have this other thing oxy of stress that's basically the damage mitochondria that can't do their work properly send out exhaust and sort of you know create damaging byproducts

um that that cause essentially like a a chain reaction of Destruction in the cells that leads to a lot of problems so this is what's happening so go to the research you look up what in our environment do we pretty much know for

certain is causing these three factors oxid stress mitochondrial dysfunction chronic inflammation that ultimately bubbles up to metabolic dysfunction there's about nine things okay and this

is what I was led to so it's our diet okay it's our lack of sleep it's our incredibly sedentary Behavior it's chronic stress so psychological stress

and poor emotional health it is environmental toxins it is our modern relationship with light so circadian see or circadian disruption based on our new relationship with

sunlight and artificial light it's issues with how we relate to temperature um so the fact that we live a Thermon neutral existence now we're all at 72 degrees and we don't have

thermal stimuli to promote metabolic health and certainly microbiome issues which is kind of tied to food but also separate from food because there's a lot of other things destroying our microbiome and lastly it's the

medications we're taking it's the it's the total and utter overuse of over-the-counter and prescription medications many of which directly cause mitochondrial dysfunction oxidative stress so so it's like those are when

when I kind of went through tens of thousands of papers to understand this question it's like those are the buckets and what's interesting when we look at

Food sleep stress um movement toxins light temperature microbiome and medications if we look at all the the way we're interacting with those

different aspects of our life the world that we're in today is 180 degrees different than how it was through all of human history like the pace of change

and technological innovation over the past 100 years 200 years you know we're talking about like light bulb forward we're talking about invention of

plastics and pesticides forward we're talking about thermostats forward this is like 100 200 Max years old that we had these things that changed everything

about processed foods 40 years 50 years old brand new um computers that turned us into sedentary knowledge workers

these things are brand new they're all kind of changing the way our cells exist in in the world and and what we have

basically seen over the past 50 years with the just exponential rise in all chronic diseases is that the world we're living

in and choosing to live in today is not conducive to functional human cellular biology full stop that is why we our

life expectancy is actually going down in the richest country in the world we can't even keep life expect to be stable this is why almost 50% of kids have a chronic lifestyle

illness this is why 93.2% of adults it's not working and we're kind of like you know we're obviously sitting here we're living in this world we're doing okay a lot of people kind of look like they're

kind of doing okay but the reality is is that 75% of people over the age of 55 have at least one chronic illness people we're kind of right now like if you squint a lot of people kind of look like

they're doing okay but I think what we're here to share in the world is that like we're we're things aren't getting better things are getting worse and if we don't a lot of these threats are

invisible and they also culturally are normal and if we don't actually stop before things are kind of get worse like we could be reaching an issue of like existential Health collapse in our

country fertility is going infertility is going up 1% per year and like right now we kind of have IVF to kind of like Smooth the edges make it seem like we're doing okay but like what's what's the

endgame there so so that's kind of the point is that is that the world is not what it once was a lot of the things we've invented under the sake of innovation and comfort are actually destroying our cellular

biology um and we're in this funny moment right now where we kind of know the writings on the wall but we're also kind of doing okay enough that we're not there's not enough urgency and and I think what I don't want to be alarmist

but I think now is the moment for us to actually wake up and change our ways change the way we're living and get comfortable with discomfort because ultimately we got across those nine

factors I mentioned we got to make some distinct changes like standing up getting outside eating real food avoiding the toxins supporting our microbiome stop taking all the overcount of meds and if we don't do that we're going to keep going down this like Road

that's not it's not going to end well I think that this is why what you're doing is so important because I don't think there's enough of a clearing and call for this right now Western medicine as we talked about is just content to keep doing what it's doing well they're

profiting yes they benefit off us continuing doing what we're doing yeah we can talk about OIC later in the podcast their mortgages are paid

by demonizing what I am talking about right yeah I mean this is the OIC conversation essentially which we'll get to I want to bookmark that one and I think that when I hear you say this I

completely agree this is 180 degrees different from the way we were living all of these things would get solved if we were all just on a Perpetual backpacking trip in the wilderness you know like literally that's not how any

of us really choose to live right because you know having a car is nice being able to take your friends to a restaurant is nice we don't have to do that but theoretically I just want listeners to understand that there is if

when I frame it in that way I think okay all of this sounds overwhelming but if we just remember where we've come from as humans and that sounds like a very Antiquated notion but I think it's so valuable that framework where we've come

from as humans is just Perpetual backpacking trip you know you get sunlight in the morning you're not stressed as much you're not a knowledge worker sitting around you're not looking at screens all day you're only eating foods that occur in nature you're

getting thermal stress up you know it's just like okay that that to me is more manageable than okay like how do I create most of that in my life now of my jity right I live in Costa Rica so I

kind of do just run around in like a loin cloth most of the time but a lot of people don't do that like and my life is a little different in Costa Rica but even in places like Los Angeles we can bring these ideas into our lives and

that's what it's about not overwhelming not overwhelming people saying oh my God I could never do that but it's like the blueprint is just it's just where we've come from as humans and it's so

interesting that this discordance really between our genetics and our environment is just causing us to get really sick yeah yeah and I think also like we're in such a dope mean Loop right now because

all the major industries in our world like are putting us on a dope mean Loop and so it's almost like if we don't step back a little bit we could be on that hamster wheel for our whole life almost

thinking that we're happy but knowing that we're actually not that happy I mean depression and anxiety we all it's like it's through the roof suicide is just it's so disastrously high as one of

the leading causes of death in the US so I do I do think that when you talk to people like people kind of know that something's not quite right with how things are going right now but I think

it's it feels incredibly overwhelming to think about how to unpack this world that we're living in but just like you're saying I think step one is to you know go through all the factors of a

modery that are impacting our cellular health and just like chip away at each of them like that that can look like we don't you know it' be awesome if we could all move to like a sort of Costa Rica but like you can bring those you

can you know if you have a tiny little deck outside your apartment you can makeshift build a little standing desk out there you know you can do that

you can choose to drink your coffee on a walk around the block rather than sit on your couch and drink it you know you can choose to open your mail sitting at a picnic table outside rather than doing it inside you can go to the farmers's

market instead of going to the grocery store like there are small things we can do that get us closer and they get us probably 80% of the way there without it being like our life turning into a backpacking trip but like they're gonna

look weird and then what you do is once you do the weird thing you realize there's all these other people doing the weird thing and you find your community it's very and then people like us all find each other and and we're back the

tribe in community and it all starts to work yeah just want to pause the podcast for one minute to tell you guys about one of our sponsors lineage Provisions this is a company that I founded with my buddy Anthony Gus we make the finest

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easier and you're going to feel great when you eat them let's talk about food because I am biased I love thinking about food and nutrition okay so when it comes to diet

from your perspective and I think food is really powerful because it's one of the biggest levers right we make hundreds of food decisions a day we eat kilogram quantities of food every single

day we know that milligram or microgram quantities of medications can profoundly affect our cell cellular physiology and yet we eat kilogram quantities of food information a day and I don't understand

why this isn't taught more in medicine so from your perspective in terms of diet what are we doing wrong in diet that is making us metabolically unwell that is really breaking our mitochondria leading to these Downstream issues of

inflammation and oxidative stress yeah yeah I mean the biggest one the biggest mistake we're Mak making is we're eating Ultra processed foods so Ultra processed foods are a science experiment invented

by food chemists and food scientists uh pretty much just starting after World War II started really accelerating in use in the 1970s and just simply put they are a science experiment that has

failed it's not working they're not conducive to Cellular bi human cellular biology and they're very bad for the planet as well wait a second so you mean you mean these are bad oh my God how about these I can't believe you brought

these are these is this good food Casey this is the kind of stuff that I eat sometimes when I was a kid so we've got kid I ate both of these things and I was 220 PBS when I was 14 years old so so so

okay here's here's Ultra processed food um but isn't it okay I mean it tells me the calories on here Casey can I just limit my calories oh my God can I just can I just limit what if I if I just eat

these and like don't exceed my calories is that okay or like what's the problem here should we look at the labels like this is yeah so I think the thing that people really need to understand like there's there's I would say there's

about four main things that really make Ultra processed foods so so so disastrous so number one is that Ultra processed foods have significantly less

micronutrients than real food so during the processing where you take a whole food and you modulate it so so so much to turn it into these individual components that then get put back

together like a Frankenstein to make this thing that looks like food if you really squint or from 100 feet might look like food but actually is really just chemicals put together and shaped

and colored and things like that so ultr processed food on average has 50% less the micronutrient composition than real food and micronutrients are the

thousands of different basically naturally occurring chemicals and food that work with our cellular biology to create functionality so I like to think of it like some micronutrients are like

vitamins and minerals for instance and if you think about our mitochondria this machine that makes energy the mitochondria actually requires like over 20 different individual micronutrients

to even have its proteins inside the mitochondria work properly like locking key co-actors so things like manganese magnesium zinc selenium B vitamins they

actually have to bind to the proteins in the mitochondria to create a tiny confirmational shift so that ATP and energy can actually be created well if we get to eat about 50 metric tons of

food in our lifetime and we want to maximize the micronutrient potential of that then if we're eating Ultra processed foods we're just slashing those key micronutrients by about half

that's number one number two is that these Foods um are filled with food additives we have 10,000 food chemicals allowed in the US most of which have never been studied

for safety let's I'm sure we can find a few here yeah this is this I love this is such an important point I mean oh my God like sodium acid what is natural and

artificial flavor propylene glycol cellulose gum thamin mononitrate that might just be a vitamin vam um we've got

sodium bicarbonate sodium acid pyrro phosphate monocalcium phosphate texture soy flavor D sodium phosphate like these

are invert sugar this has ethyl alcohol in it yep um and it's fried and vegetable oil it's wild so there's all these and these haven't been tested this is super important to point out that these are part of this generally

recognized as yeah generally recognized as safe is kind of a crime against humanity because essentially like first of all just I was actually I was falling asleep a couple nights ago just thinking about how the phrase itself is so

ridiculous we are saying you can put these in foods for kids and the the phrase we're going to use is me generally recognized as safe it's like

what that even mean generally by who like kids are dying like what are we doing I mean you you'd think that they would create a better phrase for it like these are safe but it's like oh it's

it's generally I don't want to generally recognize as safe also so the the main issue with grass is that it's a self designation that the company basically

says they present to the FDA that there is some evidence that they have cooked up that it is generally recognized as safe and then it basically gets approval

so it's not like really verified by the FDA that it's safe and we now have 10,000 food additives that are allowed to be put in our food Europe has only 400 this is incredible it's incredible

and and of course even if certain ingredients are studied we have never ever studied what the cumulative exposure of all those chemicals together in our food system are doing to our

cellular biology because it's like people say oh the dose makes up pois and oh a little bit of the BHT doesn't really matter a little bit of the and you know blah blah blah a little bit

of the fetes a little bit of the forever chemicals well a little bit of all this crap I have a feeling is doing something to our cellular biology but that has never been studied and there is

basically a war against studying cumulative exposure um because if we did that we'd real like we're being crushed by the cumulative amount of all this stuff that's you know in our process

food and now 67% of calories uh come from Ultra processed foods so we're it's not like we're getting just a little bit of this stuff so we've got the food additives we've got the micronutrient

depletion we also have the fact that these are obviously hyper palatable and they are so nutrient-dense that they're leading to this process called chronic

overnutrition so they're putting nutrient stress on our cells our cells can handle a certain amount of sugar and a certain amount of fat and you know our our bodies have to process every little

macronutrient that comes in and do something with it but because these are condensed just so energy rich these Foods they're overwhelming our cellular machinery and so it's not only breaking

the Machinery but a lot of it's being stored as sort of toxic byproducts like intracellular lipids and things like that that kind of like disrupt the whole cell signaling ceramides Dio glycerols

like Jerry shman wrote this amazing paper um like a like a 200 Page scientific paper about nutrient stress and chronic overnutrition and what this is doing to our fat cells and our liver

cells and it's basically just like they're overwhelming our bodies with too much macronutrients to kind of process and not enough supportive micro nutrients not enough fiber for our

microbiome so that's a big one um so there's just you know and then on top of all of that they're all sprayed with pesticides which are destroying our microbiome atrazine atrazine estrogenic

turns frogs to different sex literally yes yeah atrazine put on male frog embryos can turn them to female frog embryos it up regulates Aroma taste which converts testosterone to estrogen

we've got glyphosate on all of so there's got to be glyphosate and arrine in these course it's not organic so yeah they don't have to say anything about that so but there's 100% there's 100%

natural chicken breast in here Casey that's the the health washing I wonder if there's any health claims Allstar nuggets this isn't even claimed to have oh it says no artificial colors

and flavors and it's inspected by the USDA so that must mean it's safe but I I think that all that is to say Ultra processed foods they drive us to eat

more calories um they're designed to do that there was an amazing study by Kevin Hall this is incred stud researcher that basically took people and locked them at the NH for a month and they had two

different two week periods and they basically gave people processed foods for two weeks and they could eat as much as they wanted and they recorded every single bite that these people took and then they switched them over and had

them eat un unprocessed or minimally processed foods for two weeks and what's interesting inter is that in the in the period where they were eating Ultra processed foods it wasn't like egregiously bad it was like things that

we would just consider very normal like a turkey sandwich with deli meat on White Bread but in the minimally processed two weeks it would be like freshly carved turkey on whole wheat bread so they almost like looked like

similar meals but one was Ultra processed and one wasn't well in the in the two-e period where they were able to eat as much Ultra processed food as they wanted they ate on average 500 calories

more per day and over the course the twoe period that turned into 7,000 more calories and they gained expected as you

would expect about two two pounds yeah and then they lost it on the week that they were eating Ultra processed food so it's just that's energy so everyone says oh no it's just calories it's we don't need to talk about Ultra processed foods

because if you're eating the right amount of calories then you're it's energy it's all energy so many of I feel like the people in the nutrition space are like it's just about calories well sure but the ultr processed food is

literally designed to make us eat more calories and be insatiable on top of the fact so you get people eating more food the food is not then supporting on the cellular level the actual processing of

that food because it's micronutrient poror and it's it's very destructive to our cellular biology with all the food additives so together the overeating and the undernourishment of our metabolic

processes lead to a problem where we're eating many many more calories so unprocessed Foods is just in so many ways the answer to so much of our health

chronic disease epidemic and there's um you know in All Out World to get us to eat as many Ultra processed foods as possible there's 12 billion dollars spent to advertise ultr processed foods to children it's sick I mean it's not

even legal in most countries to do this so it's crazy yeah and I mean the food babe hanani har such an amazing food Advocate she has been really outspoken about the fact that like the

formulations we're using in the US for Ultra processed foods like fro Loops they are different recipes than we're using overseas because overseas they have stricter Health standards for what

you can feed to Children you can't feed them artificial many of the artificial food dies like red 40 so they use vegetable extracts and they use like they literally use turmeric powder in

some countries to to to color fro loops and here we're using petroleum based synthetic dyes that we know are linked to um ADHD and other uh issues with

neurologic development and so she's basically saying to Kelloggs which is an American company why are you poisoning Americans with these foods that we know

are damaging to our children's brains and we sell 92 million boxes of Froot Loops per year in the US it's not like it's a little thing that's 92 million that could fill a football St I don't

it's crazy and in other countries because they have stricter rules you are actually doing something safer this is crazy so she's actually so cool this March they're doing March tomorrow this

will be out after that but like they're bringing about 400,000 signatures to Kellogg saying cut the crap get the petroleum based food D out of our children's foods and at least give us

the same standards as other countries like are you kidding me I mean maybe they lose a tiny bit of margin like so so be it like so Ultra processed food's very bad long story short I think the

way I think about it and I presented in the book is that ultimately eating is the process of putting molecules in your

body and and we have these 40 trillion plus cells in our body and all of them have needs they need certain molecules to come in so they can do their work properly you know and if we match what

goes into the body with what the cells need to function properly we are largely going to have health it's actually pretty simple but when we eat food that is depleted of all the beneficial things and then filled with things that hurt

our cellular biology there's a mismatch there's not the matching problem is not met and we get cells that just don't have the resources to their work so we need to think of food as like this

molecular resource that and and the thing is the the the bill has to be paid every day because the cool thing about the body is that even though like you kind of look like a static entity and I

look like a static entity the reality is is that our bodies are turning over every single day we we lose and then rebirth like something around like 600

billion cells per day so we're just dying in mass and then being reborn every single day I I love this dos statement that like life is a process not an entity but in Western medicine

we're taught like you're a thing and you're born and you live and you die and it's binary and food doesn't matter because you're just it's just going through your gut and you're pooping it like no we are a process and we are

turning over every single day we turn over our entire skin our entire gut lining every few weeks and the food we're putting in each day is the

molecular substrate to 3D print a function or dysfunctional form of our body of tomorrow that's what's happening and so the quickest way aside from all dietary Dogma to get the body the best

chance of getting the molecular building blocks to 3D print a functional body is to eat real food and not just to eat real food but to eat the freshest food possible because every day that the food

is dead either the animal is killed or the food is taken out of the ground it's denaturing it's you're losing some of that those magical molecules that can work with our biology to create function

so you know I think getting back to the freshest food you know think about like a couple hundred years ago 90 I think 200 years ago 97% of Americans were

growing their own food now it's less than 1% wow so what does that mean it means you go out to your garden and you pick lettuce and then you eat it that

day that has vastly more nutrients than if even the lettuce sits for two weeks in a grocery store where it's just dying and you're losing the potential so we want The Highest Potential food to meet

our cellular needs and I think the coolest thing about the time we're living in today is that because people might say like well how do I know if I'm meeting the needs of my cells well there's two main ways you can understand

if you're meeting the needs of your cells with food one how do you feel do you have any chronic symptoms do you feel incredible do you wake up every day with energy and joy and light and want

to go out into the world and do cool yes or no if you are matching the needs of your cell more likely you're going to wake up every morning feeling

like you want to go do cool stuff so symptoms diseases how do you feel two biomarkers one of the cool things about modernity is that we are able to actually look at our blood work and

understand a readout of whether we're meeting the needs of our cells um and so if you can look at your lab work in a very nuanced way understand the difference between optimal and normal

ranges understand the labs that can give you a hint about your metabolic health so things like the you know apob fasting insulin fasting glucose triglycerides

htl cholesterol hscrp an inflammatory marker uric acid vitamin D um I think I said fasting insulin um if you can look at these things every few months and

actually be certain that you are like really in the optimal range for a lot of these things and you feel incredible you're probably eating the right diet you're probably eating the right diet you don't actually need someone to tell

you you need to be vegan you need to be Carn you need to be paleo you need to be keto you need to be this or that because if you are eating a Whole Food's diet and your labs are looking perfect and you feel freaking incredible you're

probably for this moment in time in a good place and that may change over time because our bodies change over time our hormones change over time our stress changes over time and we may need to modulate our diet for different parts of

our lifetime and I you know I'm I'm probably saying stuff that you might disagree on some of the nuances with here and I'm fine you know but I think there's a we can actually cut through all the crap and get to kind of

like how do we figure this out for ourselves through I think truly slowing down and taking stock of how we feel and being very consistent and taking ownership of our biomarkers and doing it regularly we can have that answer that

we've all been looking for of like what the heck should I eat yeah so yeah and you know most people that listen to my podcast know that I came from a place of extreme dietary restriction and carnivore and then added fruit and some

other things to my diet and over time you know for it's probably a subject for another podcast I do think there are some people that some foods that we traditionally think of as healthy that can trigger their immune system but I think that's that's just like a subset

of people who have intense autoimmune issues I happen to be one of them when I eat tomatoes my Eczema flares it's it's a real it's a curse because tomatoes are delicious and I'm Italian um but but I think one of the things I've started to

say in my messaging in the last few years is just if you're thriving don't change anything so that's fine like if you're a vegan and you're thriving in my mind that's kind of an like an an improbability but sure don't change

anything that's awesome so I think it's not so much about what people are eating as much as the way they're feeling and how awesome they're showing up in the world you hit on a few things that I really want to highlight for listeners which is that this calories in calories

out thing I feel like that's a scop and I feel like it's kind of designed to confuse people and you highlighted on your social media this recent time article that came out where they actually changed the title of the time article the first title was something

like what if processed foods aren't that bad for you right like this is a scop people like if you can't see that that's a scop you know from cona who makes this

like it's this is the same scop that coke used to use like soda's not bad just don't drink too much of it like it's just about calories Casey like it's cool like you can eat a dut you can eat

a donut just don't go over your calories and as you said very eloquently the problem is that you can't just eat a dnut you can't just eat a pringle you can't just eat one of these banquet meals because then you're going to be

ravenous and confused and anxious and irritable because it's going to mess up your whole cellular biology so calories in calories out yes it works at a thermodynamic level I believe in physics

but it's a scop it's meant to confuse us but here's a question on that though even if yes thermodynamics energy in energy out but if those calories are bringing along with them things that

destroy our ability to actually break down energy like they have a literal chemical that is a mitochondrial disruptor then it affects calories out yeah so I guess I don't fully I hear

what you're saying and I think everyone says like yes I believe in energy energy but I'm like what if thatg energy that you're coming in is actually breaking your ability to break down energy no one talks about that the qualities of the

calories in the qualities of the calories in affect the calories out yeah and that's how are we not talking about this like it's I don't understand why this is a controversial thing I don't understand

either but we'll keep talking about it and I think people will eventually realize that the conversation is happening but whenever I talk about this I have not been terribly successful at talking about this broadly I haven't figured out how to educate people on

this because people always have that knee-jerk response like but it's just it's thermodynamics like and I think that people are saying like you could lose weight eating Donuts yes you could weight eating Donuts but that is someone

who is incredibly disciplined and if you there is a guy who did the twinkie study there's a researcher I forget what university who lost weight eating Twinkies you know that his cellular biology got less positive right like his cellular biology was less healthy at the

end his micronutrients were depleted like he was almost certainly hungry and irritable if you put yourself in a mental prison and you only allow yourself to eat donuts you can lose doing that but that's not how anyone

exists in society what we're talking about is real life not you know a twinky experiment and that's what that's the idea and that's why I think this calories thing is just confusing to people because these companies and I

think this is part of the marketing that we're going to see more of with all of this lobbying dollars in Congress is like you can eat processed foods every once in a while it's okay just don't go over your calories except they're designed they're designed to make you

eat more and they're probably breaking your mitochondria which makes it so that you can't actually turn that food energy into you can't turn that food potential energy which is something which something I've heard you say into actual

usable energy so it's potential energy into kinetic energy and that's what our mitochondria does before we move away from food I have to ask you about seed oils yeah what do you think they lower APO B

Casey yeah I mean I have so many thoughts on seed oils because oh man this is the most contable issue I feel like in nutrition right now but there's a several I'm gonna actually start

completely away from the health conversation because the health is going to be debated endlessly but one thing that people never talk about with seed oils is they are like destroying our

planet yeah they are pretty much universally being grown as monocrop commodity crop agriculture just

ruthlessly sprayed with toxic pesticides huge fields of these plants so like soybeans um you know what we've got

grape seed oil soybean oil canola oil all these different these are going to be massive amounts of plants which take a lot of water and pesticide runoff is

going into all of our rivers and destroying our River physiology and destroying the Gulf of Mexico and destroying human health and very bad for Farmers Farmers have a hugely High rate

of cancer and depression and suicide and all these issues and then you take a ton of these seeds and I mean literally a ton I believe it takes about a ton of

grape seeds to make like a very small amount it might be a ton of grapes or grape seed but it's like it's a massive amount to make these small bottles of oil and the process through which

they're made is disgusting if you've seen the videos on like how canola oil is made it's like an eight-step process that involves chemical solvents like hexanes and heating the oil to very high

heat bleaching the oil and then everyone will say well none of that gets into the final product like I don't want that near my body are you kidding me I don't want my food bleached even if the final product doesn't have bleach in it like

that's that has been said to me so many time oh it doesn't end up in the final product well what what does it end up in a clear plastic bottle that sits on a shelf and that light is oxidizing that

oil so before we even get to the the cellular biology this food is destroying our planet monocrop pesticide covered agriculture is bad for people it's bad for the planet it's bad for our fish

it's bad for biodiversity it's not good versus if you imagine okay I'm going to eat what I eat which is like a beautiful olive oil from Flamingo Estates which is

a regenerative Farm in California and those olive trees are being you know there are animals roaming around there are no pesticides being used it's very water conscious and then the process of

making that oil of oil that Olive gets squished squished and the oil comes out and they collect the oil it's in a dark thick bottle of glass of glass it's different it's totally different it's

different you know or or or you know if you're eating lard or um you know your beautiful Tallow um this animal every part of it's being used regeneratively

raised it was living with the land to support soil biodiversity pooping and peeing on that land tilling you know gentle tilling with its Hooves all part of an ecosystem that's beautiful that

animal you know died and created millions of over probably over a million of usable usable calories for people high nutrient density and then its fat was turned into literally just Blended

up I don't know exactly how it's made but heated heated and now it's in a glass bottle so it's just even before the health part of the conversation it's just like just use

your head like what how do you want your food made is it good or is it not good and we need to have some common sense in part of this as well now let's you know get to the issue of actual the reason

CED oils I have a huge problem with them is because obviously I'm not the first to say this they're very enriched in Omega 6 we're eating so many more Omega 6 fat than we have in human history probably like a 20 to1 ratio versus

traditionally what we should be eating which is a 1:1 not only are the Omega 6 potentially inflammatory in their own right because they incorporate into cell membranes and when your immune cells are coming around trying to make

prostaglandins and other we literally the immune cells snip fats off the cell membrane to make immune um compounds and when they snip omega-6 is it turns into

pro-inflammatory immune mediators so that's one but two in order to we talk a lot about how plant-based Omega-3s are essentially inferior to

animal-based Omega-3s Omega-3s are anti-inflammatory you know fats and we have a we're very diminishing them in our diet well but one thing that's really interesting is that the way you actually convert a plant-based omega-3

like alphal linolic acid to EP DHA is through a series of enzymatic steps these desaturases and these enzymes that basically convert a plant-based omega-3 to the really usable bioactive form of

EPA and DHA so that can happen in the body we can convert plant-based Omega-3s to EPA and DHA however the enzymes required to convert ala down are the

same enzymes that omega-6 fats use so if you are filling your body with omega-6 fats you are blocking the ability of those enzymes to actually do what you need to do which is convert ala to EPA

and DHA so you're out competing these enzymes when they need to do work that actually could be beneficial for you so when I think about not eating seed oils I'm thinking about freeing up my enzymatic processes to convert my Chia

and my hemp seeds and my flax seeds which I do eat to the downstream Omega-3s and so inflammatory potential blocking of our of our uh enzymes that

we need for the omega3 pathway and then of course like their oxidation potential the fact that they can become more easily oxidized with light and heat and then that can create damage in our bodies so what did I miss I mean is there anything else that you know you

got it I mean when I think about seed oils the best summary that I've seen is like they're an oxidative liability o you know you're just putting you're putting a bunch of linolic acid this gets a little technical but my audience I think has heard it so you're putting

this omega-6 18 carbon polyunsaturated fatty acid into your cells the thing that's unique about linolic acid is that it accumulates in our cells right so we can interconvert monounsaturated fats

and saturated fats but we can't make polyunsaturated fats and that means we can't make omega-3 and we can't make omega 6 but we have far far more omega-6 in our diets as you said than Omega-3s

if we ate if we ate seven tablespoons fish oil per day that might be a problem for humans right there are actually studies in Eskimos who eat lots of fish that like there we can exceed the amount

of Omega-3s that we want it can it can lead to uh potential clotting issues and maybe even hemorrhagic strokes but we don't eat seven tablespoons of omega-3 fish oil and omega-3 fish oils are not

added to junk Foods it's the omega-6 fatty acids and as you said you would have to eat 70 plus years of corn to get the equivalent of 5 to 7 tablespoons of corn oil which is what the average American eats in a day across all

different seed oils whether you're soybeans it's 2 and a half pounds you know it's it's massive amounts of these foods that you'd have to eat to get the equivalent of these oils you have this evolutionarily evolutionary

inconsistency in what we're eating and these oils accumulate so they might not cause problems the day you eat them and that's kind of this loophole that people who want to argue and say seed oils are

neutral or they're benign um or they're even sometimes positive leaning in the in statistics we say look well they don't cause inflammation in the short term but like if you stack your cells

full of omega-6 linolic acid which is by the way the most common uh fatty acid in LDL particles is is omega-6 is linolic acid and as you said it's one of the two

Tales of a phospholipid in the cell membrane and lpa2 so lipoprotein phph2 comes along and Snips it off and what do we know there's been at least one study in humans that when you eat soybean oil

lpa2 gets upregulated and there's multiple studies in humans and this is the data that I keep coming back to there's studies in humans that are random IED and controlled and they show that oxidized LDL goes up when you eat

seed oils and LP littlea goes up when you eat seed oils and I just find this hard to ignore and then when I look at the data regarding rcts unfortunately no randomized control trial has been done

with seed oils in the last 70 years imagine that who's going to fund it so it's only been in like the 50s 60s and 70s that we had La veterans that we had Minnesota that we had Sydney that we had

the trials that we look to and then it just gets a little murky because a lot of the control groups the saturated fat groups relative to the seed oil groups in these trials were given oils that had trans fat and then Darius mozafarian

wrotes writes a meta analysis about seed oils and says hey look here's a forest plot that shows that they're neutral or positive and Facebook uses that to fact check all of my posts on seed oils that's how it goes that is based on data

that's super old oh yeah it's all based on super old data and a meta analysis that's super questionable and he's including a lot of trials in his meta analysis and the forest plot that should be thrown out because they're absolute garbage is this the same as the tough

food Compass paper or a different paper it's a different paper what is he doing well you know he's funded by Bungie and also um paper funded by Barilla like a a pasta compan the the tus food Compass

paper is actually funded by a lot of processed food companies which not not like Kelloggs or qu like some of the ones that did show up with higher scores than we'd expect like Lucky Charms healthier than eggs and beef um but it's

wild it's wild it's crazy so and then the NIH of course which also fun of the paper has 8,000 conflicts of major conf with the food and Pharma so yeah this is kind of what makes me a little crazy and

I really I really hope that the next Administration from a bipartisan position I hope the next Administration will be able to correct some of these things even at the social media education level if I can't do a post on

social media where I just cite six randomized control trials without it getting fact checked based on somebody's AFP article who's citing one meta analysis from darus mozafarian that I

can actually debunk in the same reel then then we have a major problem we have a big problem and nobody's really looking at the science properly so that's seed oils um what about what about fruit because this is an

interesting thing for people I just want to get your take on this because like when I look at the data on processed sugar it looks really bad but what about fruit I mean I think pretty much as far

as what I've seen universally we see that higher intake of whole fruits is associated with Better Health outcom so that's that's kind of observational large sort of population studies but I

mean the fruit which has sugar in it and refined sugar are like the different as different as night and day like you know that's how I feel I mean a fruit a whole fruit ideally organically grown

regeneratively grown from good soil not covered in pesticides not genetically modified to be 10 times the size that it should be all those things caveats it's going to have literally thousands of

phytochemicals and different types of micronutrients and antioxidants and these amazing plant chemicals that work with our cellular biology to create good functionality and so you've got all these beautiful nutrients in a fruit

you've also got the sugar surrounded by a you know cellular structure that makes it absorbed less quickly as as a processed sugar or a fruit juice there's the fiber there's

just the cellular the cell walls basically that you know help make this all sort of a slow and gentle process um and you know you're also the interaction

with the microbiome you know the microbiome eats polyphenols and fiber and then it's going to have a pro effect through the short chain fatty acids they create all of this so it's like it's

just a whole different Universe than a tablespoon of refined sugar that has no polyphenols no antioxidants no micronutrients no vitamins and minerals no fiber nothing it's just a straight up

it's a drug that's what it is it's a it's a highly refined you know drug that does isn't doing anything for our cellular biology it's just pure energy basically um that then because it's so

quickly absorbed actually does very differentially impact our our W circuitry and our dopamine a whole fruit you you can't really get addicted to whole fruit cuz it doesn't it absorbs so

slowly and the way that interacts with our satiety hormones it doesn't activate the dopamine pathway the same way a refined sugar does so night and day and

um you know I think that obviously with my work with levels we've thought a lot about fruit because there are people who put on a continuous glucose monitor and

they become kind of afraid of fruit um because they might see a very big glucose Spike and I I do think that one one thing I found really interesting

with our population and also just wearing a CGM for a long time is that my reaction in terms of blood glucose response to different fruits is very variable so so certain fruits like for

instance an unripe pear or an organic farmers market apple or a Pimon um these don't cause a glucose Spike for me really at all like maybe like 10 points you know just like a gentle rise and

fall there are certain fruits that I can eat like grapes specifically that I've actually gone up to 210 milligrams from from 75 so SE so like 120 like into the

diabetic range so and then of course what happens after a huge glucose Spike like that which is that it crashes you know you have a huge insulin release and it crashes and then you have this post

post prandial hypoglycemia and then often you know that doesn't feel very good so with all that and of course based on Research we know like the cell paper personalized Nutrition By

prediction of gla responses we know that everyone responds differently to different foods so you might not respond to grapes the way I do so this is not in any way saying grapes are bad but for my physiology I would say that it's actually probably best for me to avoid

grapes interesting not because fruit is bad not because but because for some reason the way it's interacting with my physiology or the grapes that I ate that day and it's not because that one spike is going to like predispose me to

diabetes it's because it feels really shitty to have a crash not it's not like a oh you've damaged your physiology forever but postprandial hypoglycemia there was a paper in nature from a

couple years ago that showed extent of our post Spike crashes and glucose predicts how much energy we're actually going to try and consume that day so predicts Cravings predicts total energy

intake because a crash is sort of a threat signal to the body that says I need to get my blood sugar back up to Baseline and promotes basically you wanting to eat more carbohydrates so for me personally so so fruit is I believe

that fruit is a a beautiful food filled with nutrients um so different than refined sugar and also based on learning more about my glucose responses I select within that

whole category the ones that do better for my overall blood sugar response that I'm not on that roller coaster and that's unpleasant as you said yeah super unpleasant you know what would be super interesting and I've never actually tested this but I have a couple cgms in

Costa Rica would be to test response of different foods at different places this gets into like the the chronobiology and almost like the Jack Cruz type of thing like would grapes grapes don't necessarily grow in Costa Rica or

equatorially but like what a fruit like a mango you know if you're eating a mango in California that was grown in Mexico totally right does that affect you differently when the sun is not as

bright who know who knows it's super interesting think about also your microbiome if you and your genetics like imagine if we were we were actually we were Costa Rican we had the you know

that that genetic you know whatever that that is and then we grew up there with that soil and with that microbi and with that food and then ate a fruit that's grown locally and we ate it during the

sunlight hours it's like I would not be surprised if that pattern is different than if a northern European is eating grapes in the middle of winter in California that have traveled 1500 miles you know what I mean it's just like I

don't know for sure but we don't think about these things yeah it's super interesting super interesting because I mean this is one of the things and I love farmers markets I know that not everyone has access to farmers markets but I don't even have to think about

what's in season in Costa Rica cuz I don't shop at a grocer store and that I don't want that to sound elitist it's just that I don't the foods I can the only way I can get organic food in Costa Rica is to go to the freaking farmers market so I go to the farmers market

twice a week and sometimes there's Mamon chinos which are Rambo Tans sometimes there's mango and then the mango are gone there's no more mangos in Costa Rica right now uh but there's watermelon and I can get uh what else can I get I

can still get rambotan I can get dragon fruit but those are kind of going Nies but like it's very seasonal it's the same thing I mean I think if you're shopping at a farmers market here in California nobody's importing grapes from Mexico you're only going to get

what's local at the time so farmers markets I think just help me to see because I don't have the you know the mental capacity to go on my phone be like what's in season now in Minnesota

and we kind of run into trouble I think a little bit because a lot of the country there's really not much at all you're basically looking at winter squash yeah you know Seattle I did my residency at the University of Washington there aren't really even

farmers markets much in the in the winter in Seattle because it's so dreary but if you were to go to see Farmers there's not much yeah and so the question then becomes well if I live in Seattle should I just be eating squash all winter like maybe I shouldn't be

eating strawberries I was never that disciplined and I think that for me I hope that I had enough other things right that I didn't need to get that granular and we're pretty far down the rabbit hole now yeah and I do wonder

about like I think in some of those cultures it would be like they had store rooms in in the basement and you know that were cold and you'd be eating your root vegetables throughout the winter your onions and your potatoes and they

would last for a long time squash lasts a long time yeah months crazy and certain fruits actually can last for a long time especially when stored properly and then the fermented

foods right because they'd be fermenting and processing in the Indigenous way you know you you know to to basically preserve nutrients for the winter this

is beyond what many of us can do I shouldn't say that we can do anything but what we're willing to probably do in our modern world but I think there were probably ways that you know you could

manage that seasonal variability um people had to we live we evolved until today so but it happened and and I do I mean I'm just now in my journey of

Health which is a 15-year Journey now starting to think more about the seasonality and the that type of thing because it's like it's like you go down the rabbit hole like you said and it just keeps getting deeper and deeper and

deeper and we're like yeah like how how do we shape our modern lives to allow us to to basically eat in a way that's more in touch with like with the season and in the time of day you know if we want

to eat more during sunlight hours then we may need to eating our dinner at different times in the summer versus the winter because we know that like once that melatonin starts getting secretion it does impact our insulin sensitivity it makes a lot of sense it makes a lot

of sense just want to pause the podcast for one more moment to tell you about heart and soil heart and soil is a company that I'm also very proud of at heart and soil we make the finest grass-fed grass finished regeneratively

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soil what about honey I mean I'm like a bee fanatic so yeah I mean I think I I respect bees so

much and um and and yeah I don't I would say I probably have a less nuanced view in Honey than you do I mean I'd rather hear it from you I think for me honey is a natural food that comes from nature

that tastes really good to humans and that is filled with vitamins and minerals and nutrients and there's other parts of what the bees create like the propolis that are like literally magical medicines there you know royal jelly and

all these things it's absolutely incredible so I'm kind of in awe of it and I do use it um and with that said I also if I eat a ton of honey I sometimes

do have a really big glucose spike in Crash and I don't feel great so I use it in in moderation in a way that keeps my blood sugar more balanced but like as a

food it's a natural whole food that is a gift from the earth and I don't think that it's like in its own right problematic I I am definitely more now eating because I think with levels I I

kind of went into the the sort of like eating more allulose monk fruit and Stevia cuz they were non-nutritive natural sweeteners and if I could find organic source of them I'm like okay this is the best

option and I would say over time I have moved a bit more into like dates honey and like fruit as sweeteners and things like that because I just so much of the

trajectory of my life and my journey is like actually how do we get back to Nature and so how can I use these substances in a way that doesn't put me on a huge blood sugar roller coaster but

does allow me to support you know people who are raising bees in a super sustainable way and to get all the value of that food like the the vitamins and minerals and immune benefits and all of

that stuff so that's kind of the journey I haven't been on but I haven't gotten on the rabbit hole I would say on the research on honey but I'm sure there's a little bit here's a little bit I mean I've been impressed with honey you know I mean I think there are trials I don't

think there's a ton because who again who funds them that it actually raises testosterone in males and wow yeah and then there's actually a really interesting trial in diabetics that I've cited a lot where they gave people honey

up to I think 125 gram a day and over that time so what happened their blood sugar goes up a little bit I think A1C went up um a small amount I think the average blood sugar difference between

the honey and non-honey groups was about maybe 10 milligrams per deciliter so the A1C went up but the um the fasting glucose went down W and I think they did a clamp I think they might have looked

at insulin sensitivity the insulin sensitivity improved over over time so this is interesting I've been kind of wrapping my head around this thinking like okay you mentioned something earlier that I always want keep in my

back of my mind which is that 93% of Americans are metabolically unwell yes so should metabolically unwell people be eating honey I don't know right right but I'm not sure I just think that when

I'm looking at this what I try to communicate to people is that I don't think that honey caused you to get unwell right yeah yeah exactly and that's where I come from and so I think like you have said eloquently it's

probably an individual thing if you eat honey and you feel good great if you eat honey and you get a big hypoglycemic response don't eat it it's probably not for you maybe you're not ready for it maybe not everyone's genetics or time of

year or seasonality is going to be connected with that I mean I think that sometimes I have to take a little bit of Humble Pie and realize that I do live at the equator most of the year and so what I experience might not be what everyone

else experiences because honey is available to me year round right at the equator honey is available year round and when I was in Tanzania honey is available year round you know the hodza

live right at the equator and so we are equatorial beings as Homo sapiens but a lot of us don't live at the equator anymore so are the far are the bees here in California still producing honey in October I don't know Farmers Market

would tell you you know that is so interesting it's just an interesting thing yeah and I do wonder about that too like about a metabolically healthy person who's like Machinery is churning

through substrates and they're not dealing with chronic overnutrition and nutrient stress and a Cell full of uh toxid lipid mues and you know all these

different things it's like on top of that this is why like I do think about like ex somewhat extreme diets like a keto diet or like a full vegan diet or like carnivore or whatnot

it's like I you know there may be a time and a place for extreme diets that basically help you clear out your cell of a lot of the crap that has built up and put a lot of like real food

nutrients and then from that place of more stability of the cell actually being like less over burden which maybe is actually just achievable by cutting out all Ultra processed food no matter

what you know sort of like Paradigm you use then adding in like more you know natural sweeteners like a honey or something like your body can process it but you know the I don't think there's

like specific answers to all these questions but step one I think for the average American body is like we have to get off all the ultr processed foods so that we're not overwhelming our cellular Machinery every single day with toxins

and these just super nutrient-dense Foods so that our because our cells know how to clear themselves out they know how to turn over and get to functionality but we just have to Full Stop on the like the toxic crap coming

in and I think that and this is something that's been an evolution for me um I think that you could eat a lot of different foods and be healthy you know I think a lot of people can eat beans or potatoes and salads and olive

oil you know you can eat it's if you're getting rid of the processed foods it's it's probably the single biggest step we can make and if you feel great and if your biomarket look good so like if you're someone who you know you're

eating a ton of beans and you truly have zero gut symptoms and you feel incredible mental physical health and your hscrp your ESR your white blood cell count your autoimmune markers your

Ana your thyroid if they're all perfect I'm like who who am I to say that those are screwing you up so I think that's where that combination of like be the CEO of your

biomarkers slow the heck down so you can actually know how you feel so many of us are so disembodied you know and like we don't even know what it feels like to feel good so it's like it's both of those things together and I agree with

you I mean I've definitely come I've come I think we both sounds like come on sort of like a little bit maybe more it's a journey nutrition is a journey and it's a constantly evolution of of

thinking I think for me you know so so in terms of a dietary prescription I think just I want to give people this this value like it doesn't have to be complicated right so real food yeah real

food unprocessed food as local as possible the local is key more nutrients to help your cells heal the average piece of food in the US is traveling 1500 miles we have to cut that down to

100 miles I think um and eat the food from the farmers market we have 9,000 farmers markets in the US make it a priority if there's one thing to I think the reason we don't do

it is because we don't realize how important it is but the fact the food came from the soil or the meat you know is fresher and higher quality it makes a difference so that is a takeaway so real

food as local as possible if you do those two things and just commit to cut out all the ultra processed food your life will transform end of story that is the reality and then from there

fine tune fine but that's if there 15 years into this journey if there's one thing I know it's that yeah and if you still have issues once you're doing the real food then go down the further rabbit holes and get more selective with

therapeutic diet there may be parts of that whole food diet that are triggering your biology like like like lectin like you know like some of the plant chemicals that maybe your gut is so

having so much trouble from the the how it's been hurt over the past 20 years that you actually need to remove certain food compounds to get the heling you need I mean when I you know Michaela

Fuller you like there's a lot of people who have truly healed their gut from getting rid of all the plant Camp pant so that might be but I think Mo Step One is moving away from the ultra process

foods before this podcast you told me that you used to be a vegan yes you also told me you've never eaten organs that's right do you want to do it oh my God I'm kind of nervous this feels like my biggest like weak spot is that I'm

scared of eating organs and yet I know that I should um so tell me is it going to taste a lot different it won't I basically tastes like a meat stick um do

we need to get maybe we get like a like if you need to like spit it out I TR no it's gonna I'm gonna do it I'm not going to smell it first I think that's cute just eat it oh wow these are cute so

everyone anyone if in case anyone it's mostly beef it's mostly beef it has heart it has liver and if you look at the ingredients in this because this is a company that I founded with Anthony Gustin the ingredients are grass-fed

beef beef heart vinegar grass-fed beef liver sea salt and beef collagen yeah you know so there's no funny business in here how do you wrap your head around liver like do you have to have a and now it's just second nature for you but like

is there do you just think of it like we eat muscle why not eat liver well yeah I think the hza it was the first thing we ate so I'm there with these hunter gatherers in Tanzania it's the first thing we eat we they killed a goat right

and the Goat was brought to them so one of the things we did for them was we gifted them a goat you can do it while I'm talking your face and when they killed the goat the they

they held the liver with two hands and they gently placed it on a rock and then they cut it into like pieces and they just gave it to everyone the TR it was like a piece it was like a piece of um I

don't know they held it like a child you know it was like a very it was like a very sacred thing they were like this and I think of liver as like a multivitamin right that that term has been co-opted but like really for humans

you don't even need much more than the size of a multivitamin a day in liver like can eat like a half ounce of liver per day and it has this huge effect on our biology just in terms of micronutrients and potentially in terms

of micro RNA is also but that's a subject for a different podcast yeah whoa because this is a crazy thing about organs and I want to get back to the metabolic Health with you but like so Harden soil is the other the business that I founded and they make desiccated

organs so they're freeze-dried what we find is that when you freeze dry organs or if you eat organs raw which is kind of you know queasy for a lot of people you you don't denature these micro rnas

there was just Nobel Prize awarded for micro rnas and the hypothesis the and there's actually literature from like the 1950s and 1960s in Germany that we found where the micrornas positively

affect cellular biology and Gene transcription in the corresponding organ no it's really interesting so like oh my God so if you're eating a little piece of Raw Liver the hypothesis which I wish

we had more us research is can the micr rnas can these signals even beyond the nutrients in that affect the gene transcription in your liver or you know women eating the ovaries or men eating

testicle or humans eating the gut of another animal affecting the gut or people eating brain right it's super interesting stuff so this is just the value of organs like with liver you don't need a lot wow just a little bit

Yeah so there's a little bit of liver in there how many of these would you need to eat per day to like get that multivitamin dose I mean for these you'd probably have to there's it's a little bit of liver like half a bag I barely

taste the I don't think I tastes this tastes like a beef stick yeah it's delicious yeah okay good good it's so good it's good right yeah the texture is really good we worked so hard on this a

lot of credit to Anthony we did like 50 plus trials I don't want it to be like a commercial for the beef sticks but whatever 50 plus trials it's air dried yeah this is all for you anyway yes I like it casy means I'm proud of myself

you hate or well no I I know I need to eat them it's a mental thing yeah yeah like why is it okay to eat muscle and not the rest of the and not

the it's a cogn thing obviously there's so many other cultures who don't have that hang up but they just do it oh my gosh I feel like you could create some sort of like therapy like modality for people to like undo this like mental

construct like cognitive behavioral therapy for organs I think it's true because I do think I mean I've talked to so many people I think there's a hangup about organs there is even though muscle is an organ it is an organ right heart

is a muscle heart is a muscle and in Peru they have anticuchos people get these things sort of you know yeah and also it's so funny I would so take organ supplements without even thinking twice it's something about the chewing and the

eating so anyways I yeah that could be a little app that's why I knew that my mom and my sister wouldn't do the liver that's why I built you know hardened soil anyway so the organ supplements are interesting and the freeze ride yeah

okay yeah I'm so glad that you did that yay all right so we talked about food yeah we've got a little bit of time left um let's talk about a few of the other

things for people to give them some prescriptions I I'm again I'm biased these are important but I think for me it's food and sleep are the biggest ones but that's just my perspective so let's

talk about sleep for a minute to talk people about this I mean sleep we're not sleeping well in this culture i there's I'm not good data but like we might have been sleeping 20% more on average about

100 years ago we're sleeping less and if you think about the world just our circadian disruption our circadian rhythms are destroyed because of artificial light and we just don't go in the sunlight anymore which so sleep and

sunlight I think are very interconnected but the average American now is spending 93% of their time indoors it's crazy and that that was a study that about 4% of that is in cars and the rest is in the

four walls of your house so we are these these incredible bipedal animals that live on the most spectacular planet in the universe that we know of right now

like it is the most it's Heaven you know on this planet and we are choosing to lock ourselves in the confines a self-imposed prison of comfort in our houses and not go outside of the world

and so of course we're scared and we're you know exhausted and we're fearful because we're literally not going outside I mean isn't that the the average or there was a recent study that

showed that about 50% of kids are going outside less than a maximum security prisoner we're not going outside and that is implicated with our sleep because we're we're dial animals whether

we like it or not we have biologic processes that happen during the sunlight hours and we have biologic processes that are supposed to happen at night and because we are literally not going out outside we are not telling our

bodies what time it is right the way our bodies we do have sort of entrained clock genes and all this stuff in our bodies but the way we actually reinforce those the knowledge of our body of what

time it is is by exposing our skin and our retina to photons so our bodies are not seeing photons during the day and they're seeing blasting blue light at night because of our technology which is

totally new and so our bodies have no idea what time it is they are totally circadian confused and it screws up our sleep because all of our hormones that regulate our sleep are are controlled by

light this is not rocket science and then we don't sleep and that has a huge impact on our hormonal Health our cortisol our growth hormone our testosterone our sex hormones all these

things and so our sleep is short we are not sleeping enough we are not sleeping consistently meaning we are not going to bed and waking up at regular times and if we did live by the sun we would have

these you know periods that we sleep and it would change seasonally but it would be pretty specific you know it's only changing Maybe by a minute or two each day as as maybe the sun changes so our we're inconsistently sleeping we are not

sleeping enough and our sleep is interrupted because of light in our bedrooms because of noises because of all these things we allow to distract us at night our beeping of our phones all this stuff which shouldn't even be on at

night that shouldn't be on at night there has been research that shows that sleep consistency Sleep Quality and sleep amount each independently have an impact on those

three sub cellular processes of of of metabolic dysfunction oxidative stress chronic inflammation and um mitochondrial dysfunction so in my book I lay out there's research showing that

each of those three factors of sleep which are screwed up in our modern world each independently causes the trifecta of metabolic dysfunction so so we have to prioritize

that for all aspects of cellular health and hormonal health and it starts by spending vastly more time Outdoors during the day we have to figure out a way this actually seems like one of the

easier ones to me if we're spending about 93% of our time indoors how do we just turn that to 50% right it what that requires is looking at all the things we do each

day you know checking email catching up with our partner playing with our kids cooking uh doing podcasts and just creatively finding a way to do each of

those Outdoors my dream is to have an outdoor podcast Studio I you know and my also dream is to have an outdoor kitchen I know you're like you've actually moved forward on a lot of these things I've

seen your life and I mean everything kind of looks Outdoors for you it's actually when you just start to think that way so my my fiance and I we have all these books at our house about like

basically building indoor outdoor houses and it's like not that there's a lot of people who do that it's not actually that crazy but why does why do we have to be indoors all day we don't that's a

recent phenomenon so the Sleep getting what I would recommend for everyone is take a look at your daily activities and pick two or three things today that you're doing indoors that you could

actually do outdoors because the more sunlight you get during the day the easier it's going to be to go to sleep at night and the higher quality your your sleep is going to be but um but yeah when I was researching the book like some things that really were

fascinating was this whole sleep consistency thing humans are sleeping very erratic bed times and wake up times and there's this concept called social jet lag which is a scientific term where

basically if you look at work days and Leisure Days so like weekdays and weekends and obviously that varies for different people working different shifts if you are if you look at how you

sleep like 12 12 midnight to 8:00 a.m

your sleep midpoint is 4:00 a.m. and if

you're sleeping 10:00 p.m. to 6: a.m.

your sleep midpoint is 2 am. if the

midpoint of your sleep between your work days and your leisure days or just between different days of the week is over two hours it like doubles your risk of developing diabetes so you need to keep things consistent and the nice

thing about a lot of the wearables is they're actually showing you your sleep consistency now like how erratic are you um that was the one I had to work on the most I was getting enough sleep but my bedtimes were all over the place because

of social stuff and because of work you know and it's like you got to commit we need to put our we need to treat ourselves like babies have a bedtime you know have a wake time and be consistent

with it and it just changes everything and I think also moving your sleep up going to bed earlier can be really valuable because we get more of our deep sleep earlier in the night so that's been one of the biggest challenges for

me as a as a night owl is just like moving it up and being consistent um and it is it's transformational for energy so so important I've seen this in my own life so I live in Costa Rica the sun

basically Rises and sets at the same time of year the same time of day all year round equatorial it's equatorial so I am in bed and my audience will laugh at this by almost 8 o' every day because

I get up at 5 or 5:30 to go surf um and I told my team I can't do podcast in the afternoon with this lighting so we're recording this it's almost 1: p.m. here

in California this probably won't mess up my circadian rhythm too much we're going to walk right outside and go for a walk right now and meet our friend Anthony Gustin so we're going to get outside move and do all the things because we've been sitting so we're gonna hopefully correct some of this

blue light we're doing this for you guys this is for you this is for you guys like we sat under BL it doesn't feel good though right it doesn't feel good it doesn't feel good and um but I'm doing it for you guys and it's just how

it goes but I basically when I record podcasts at home in Costa Rica I told my team no blue light so I use all ambient light and my editor like it doesn't look as good I was like well do what you can to make me look okay but I was like I

can't do it because I remember recording podcast at 300 or 4 in the afternoon and gr remember I go to sleep at like 8:00 p.m. and it would mess with my sleep and

p.m. and it would mess with my sleep and Grand we're under artificially massive blue lights here yeah but this is so sens It's So impactful and I've noticed for myself that if I'm on my phone too

late I obviously I have filters on my phone I have filters on my computer to take out the blue light but even with the Flicker and stuff it's just very stimulating it's such a big lever and I can't tell you how many people I talk to

who are super dialed with their food and they say well you know I like do Tik Tok at night to Wine down and I just take their phone and want to throw it in the ocean yeah I think you taught about the red the triple hit thing and turns the

phone red yeah it's it's but no it's it's important and um and when you start feeling the benefits I think it makes it easier to you know but but I mean everyone needs to go outside the second

they wake up end of story I brush we like brush your teeth outside every time you start brushing your teeth which is 3 minutes just walk outside get some sunlight you got to start the day it is

so easy in our modern world to just be inside till noon especially now with everyone working from home no and like it's a disaster for our health like we

are we all of our life source and energy comes from the sun like we have to start thinking about the sun again as as our life force and realizing that

we have to be in relationship with the sun to be healthy the scop of the century of course is is Sun is bad for you the sun is terrible oh my and that

we should literally fear the Sun and of course we don't want to get sunburns that's not good but sun exposure and sunburns are two different physiologic

things and you know I think I don't know how we're going to unwind that cultural Force that's been so damaging that is basically like you need to be inside all the time or be completely covered and now everyone's vitamin D is 20 and we

know vitamin D is involved in like thousands of cellular processes and anti-cancer and all these things mental health and but it's more than the biology we all know that being outside

in the sunshine is good for our spirit well you can feel it on your skin because I always think about can you replace sunlight with a vitamin D supplement probably not you know we get nitric oxide we get endorphins made in our skin when we're in the sun it's

crazy you make you make cholesterol sulfate the precursor to this you know 25 hydroxy vitamin D in your skin when you're in the sun uh there's probably some other cellular processes that are not just a pill you can't put sunl in a

pill it's just it's better than nothing if you live in at the if you live really far from the equator in the winter but it's a sketchy scary thing also just being outside with the sun it reminds

you that you're on a planet yes in a in a universe sometimes I remember that's amazing and I think it's like on that subconscious level it also reminds us it feeds into the stress component of metabolic dysfunction which is so much

of the reasons we're stressed right now is because we feel I think we're living in a fear Matrix that is you that is created to profit off of our feeling small and limited

and when we get outside in the sun more often I mean I can't prove this with a double blind Placebo controlled study but like it makes us happier and healthier because we see our picture in the greater the greater web of things

when I was in Seattle in my residency in Psychiatry we had um these Bright Lights you know because Seattle's quite dark in the winter and I saw a lot of people with Seasonal effective disorder and the

bright lights don't really work right it's just a blue light that you're putting in front of your eyes and it doesn't work but what would work is if somebody would go to Mexico and actually get in the Sun and so or if somebody would actually go outside and you can

give someone vitamin D for season doesn't work it doesn't work doesn't work what if someone in Seattle even though it's dark in the winter just basically spends like almost all their time Outdoors that would probably help

it would help a lot because you're getting but you have to really spend all of your time outdoors and there are plenty of tribes up you know I would surf at this place called Nia Bay and there oh I've been there yeah I think it's the maau tribe I think I'm getting

that right and they you know there there are plenty of that live up there quite healthfully but they're outside all of the time really even in modern times oh well not so much now they have a meth they have a meth problem on the

reservation now but yeah it's m it's horrible but they were living but historically I mean humans have lived all over the globe being outside all day now there's differences in terms of vitamin D and of course probably in the summer they're getting lots of vitamin D

being in the sun in Seattle they're storing it in their fat and it gets them through the winter but yeah I mean yeah you'd have to be outside almost all year round and see it's very hard to manage that stuff and so that was my constant struggle when I was in Residence there

especially in the wins what do I do you know and I I moved away from there but for people that are there that's that's a little nugget yeah thank you so much for coming on the podcast what a joy spending time with you thank you for

helping me get over my liver and organ I love that I love that we did it this is amazing where can people find more of your stuff oh my gosh my book good energy the surprising connection between

metalism and Lim itself where everywhere books are sold um we've New York Times bestseller yes number one New York Times bestseller 20 weeks what amazing awesome

yeah freaking amazing well it's just it's I mean I feel like the the the success of the book is built on the the thousands of other people who are like talking about this it's all of us you

know it's like and I people give a about metabolic Health right now which is one of the most exciting things I could possibly imagine because if we care about metabolic Health that means we're moving towards more life force and

that's good so that Casey means.com I have a newsletter that goes out every Tuesday where I totally unfilter um and yeah that's and then levels levels is the how to get continuous cost

monitors if you want to dial into that aspect of metabolic health and that's level.com okay and your brother is CI means who I've had on the podcast I'll put a link in the description of this podcast to my conversation with Cy

because that was another between the two of you these are some of my probably my one some of my favorite episodes ever and like so full of information I would encourage you guys to listen to any podcast Casey and C have been on because

they've been on a lot recently and the knowledge they drop is insane I was listening to you guys on Rogan and cie talking about the history of Western medicine with Rockefeller like my jaw was on the floor we didn't have time to

go into it today it's kind of Callie's shtick anyway but like it was it was like Flex report Flex report yeah the flexner report the fact that like Rockefeller not not only did he create schools to make us good nine-o-five

workers which are destroying our circadian rhythms he probably potentially created the pharmaceutical industry to have byproducts of his far of his petroleum business used and then

you can't consider any sort of alternative medicine to be anything but quackery because it's against the pharmaceutical Rel funding as a medical school if you do go against it and then the cigarette companies all bought the food companies and put their food

scientists on processed food it's great stuff the history goes very deep guys if you want to realize how much you have been scoped around what we're living in yes yeah the world that we're living in

like it will it will blow your mind and it's so easy to break out yes the cage doors are open they're open let's go let's go we're going to we're going to break out of this cage door podcast studio right now thank you so much thank you