The Science of Making & Breaking Habits: How to Change Your Life in 1 Month

Procrastinating is choosing to delay a better future. It's choosing to ignore the results that you could be having, the potential that you could be fulfilling. Fix the inputs and the outputs will fix themselves. Fix the daily habits and you'll be led to a different destination. Time is precious. Today, you and I are getting to learn from the incredible James Clear. is widely regarded as one of the top experts in the world on habit formation and behavior change whose book on habits has sold 25

million copies. I'm talking about none other than Atomic [music] Habits. >> I feel like if I sit there and I ruminate about something, it just gets worse. It gets bigger in my head. But if I take one small action on it, if I just get started on it, now I'm influencing the outcome. You know, now I'm shaping what's going to happen. action relieves anxiety. [music] >> You said at the very beginning is that the secret to winning is knowing how to lose. How do you start the engine up

million copies. I'm talking about none other than Atomic [music] Habits. >> I feel like if I sit there and I ruminate about something, it just gets worse. It gets bigger in my head. But if I take one small action on it, if I just get started on it, now I'm influencing the outcome. You know, now I'm shaping what's going to happen. action relieves anxiety. [music] >> You said at the very beginning is that the secret to winning is knowing how to lose. How do you start the engine up

again and what's the mistake you see people making? >> There's just a period where you just got to get through them. Life might be bad now, but that doesn't mean it's always going to be that way. Life might be hard now, but it's not always going to be hard. And you're going to be okay. You're going to make it out [music] the other side. I think we should all give ourselves permission for our habits to shift based on the season that we're facing. Explain the four laws of behavior change.

>> The first law is to make [music] it obvious. The second law is to make it attractive. The third law is to make it easy. [music] The easier, more convenient, [snorts] frictionless, simple a habit is, the more likely it is to be performed. And the fourth and final laws, >> that's amazing. Hey, it's your buddy Mel. And before we jump into this unbelievable conversation with James Clear, you're about to learn that you're not the problem. The fact that you don't have

systems is the problem. You're going to learn these systems. We're going to get right into it. You're going to love this. It's going to help you achieve your goals. But I have a goal, too. My goal is that 50% of you who watch here on YouTube are subscribers. And right before we were about to start this episode, my team showed me this. 57% of you who watch the Mel Robbins podcast here on YouTube are not subscribers. You're the kind of person who likes supporting people who support you. My

goal is that we get to 50%. So, please, if that subscribe button is lit up, it means you're not a subscriber. Please hit subscribe. It's free. That's how you can show your support to your friend Mel Robbins, and that way you don't miss a thing. It also tells me and the team, "Oh my gosh, you love the guests that we're bringing you, the content that we're putting here in an attempt to support you in creating a better life." All right, thanks for doing that. You're

ready to break bad habits and lock in new ones using James Clear's research? I bet you are. So, let's jump in. James Clear, welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. Hello, Mill. How are you? >> I am fantastic. I am so excited to be able to have this conversation with you because your work has made such a big difference in my life. I have bought Atomic Habits and pressed it into people's hands more times than I can count. And to be able to unpack the simple but powerful insights today, I

I've just been looking forward to this since I started the podcast. >> No, thank you so much. That's very nice of you to say. Well, it's true. And here's where I want to start. What will I experience in my life that could be different, James, if I take everything that you're about to share with us and teach us today to heart and I apply it to my life? [snorts] >> Well, I'll give you three things right off the bat. So, first is action relieves anxiety. Action relieves

anxiety. So if you're feeling stressed about something, you fear something, there's a problem that's kind of bothering you, [snorts] taking action on it reduces the fear that you feel about the problem because now you're influencing the outcome. Second thing is it builds resilience. So in a lot of ways, I feel like the secret to winning is knowing how to lose. And what I mean is it's knowing how to bounce back from a loss. And so many of the things that we'll talk about today are about getting

started and about making it easier for yourself to get started, particularly after you fail, after you suffer something. And so the secret to winning is knowing how to lose. And these strategies will teach you how to be more resilient, bounce back from those losses. [snorts] And then the third thing is better results. You know, um, in a way procrastinating is choosing to delay a better future. It's choosing to ignore the results that you could be having, the potential that you could be

fulfilling. [snorts] And most of our outcomes in life are a lagging measure of the habits that precede them. So your bank account is a lagging measure of your financial habits. Your um physical fitness is a lagging measure of your training habits. Your knowledge is a lagging measure of your reading habits. It's the thing that is the result of the action. You're basically saying the bank account I see today is a result of the habits that I had like a year ago.

fulfilling. [snorts] And most of our outcomes in life are a lagging measure of the habits that precede them. So your bank account is a lagging measure of your financial habits. Your um physical fitness is a lagging measure of your training habits. Your knowledge is a lagging measure of your reading habits. It's the thing that is the result of the action. You're basically saying the bank account I see today is a result of the habits that I had like a year ago.

>> Yeah. Almost all the things that we have now are a result of the daily life, the daily system that we've been following for the last say 6 months or year or two years. You know, it's it's the things that you do each day that lead you to the outcomes that you have right now. Now look, I'm not saying that habits are the only thing that matter in life, right? You have luck and randomness. You've got misfortune. There are all sorts of things that can influence the final outcome. [snorts] But

by definition, luck and randomness are not under your control and your habits are. And the only reasonable rational approach in life is focus on the pieces of the situation that are within your control. And so we also badly, this is interesting thing in life, we also badly want better results. You know, we also badly want to make more money or double productivity or be fit or reduce stress. But the irony is the results are not actually the thing that needs to change.

It's like fix the inputs and the outputs will fix themselves. Fix the daily habits and you'll be led to a different destination. You know, in some ways I feel like the two time frames that matter most in life are like 10 years and 1 hour. So 10 years is shorthand for like what are the big meaningful things you really care about in life? I mean e sit there and think about most of us like what do we really want to do? you know, want to have a marriage that we're proud of or raise kids that are

successful or to build a business that thrives or to get in the best shape of your life, whatever it is, whatever that big thing is, it's almost always a multi-year, sometimes a multi-deade process. So 10 years is shorthand for like what's that big vision? >> Yeah. >> And then one hour is shorthand for what can I do in the next hour that contributes to where I want to be in 10 years. You know, like never let a day pass without doing something that is going to benefit you in a decade. And if

you can live in those two mind frames, if you can have like both this long-term vision and this bias for short-term action, you don't let a day pass without doing something that's going to benefit you 10 years from now. You don't even need to wait 10 years. Usually, usually it's like a year or two and you're shocked by how much progress you made. >> Well, already you are dropping very clear, very simple, and very powerful truths. I'm going to call them that action relieves anxiety, which we're

going to get dig into. That the secret to winning is knowing how to lose. And tell me the third one again about procrastination. >> Procrastinating on something important is choosing to delay a better future. >> So, you know this is important to you. You know this is important to your life, but not taking action on it now. You're just pushing kicking the can down the road, right? Pushing the results further and further out. And so, by um you the question you asked me was if I take this

seriously and I follow through on these things, how will life change? >> Yes. And the answer is you'll no longer be delaying a better future. You'll be working toward it. You'll be contributing to it. >> Interview's over. I mean, that [laughter] right there was absolutely. I cannot wait to dig into this. What I would love to talk about first though, in case the person who is listening right now or who's watching on YouTube doesn't know what a habit is, what is

the simplest definition for how to think about a habit and why are they so important? >> Sure. Okay. So, good question. I'm going to define a habit in a couple different ways. So, first way, if you were to talk to an academic or researcher, they're going to tell you habits are these automatic mindless routines, things you do without even really thinking about it. >> Okay? So, like how you pull your pants, >> brush your teeth, tie your shoes, put your pants on the same leg each time.

Like, you know, it's just these automatic mindless behaviors. And it is true that there are many habits that are like that throughout the day. But there's, I think, a different type of way that we use the word habit to describe most things. Like, if I were to ask you, Mel, what are some habits you're going to work on? You're not going to say stuff like that. You're going to say, "I'm trying to get in the habit of meditating every morning or I want to get in the habit of writing

every day or going to the gym three days a week or whatever." Yes. >> And that is more of [laughter] >> all those um that's more like a routine, you know, in a technical academic sense. It's not automatic the way that brushing your teeth might be, but what you mean is I want to do it consistently and, you know, regularly. And so most of atomic habits is about that stuff. It's about how do we pick these big important things in our lives and do them with greater consistency and frequency.

>> There are these simple systems and things and rules that you're going to teach us today that that I love because I think when you're somebody that's struggling to make changes stick in your life or to even get started, you see it as a deficit in your personality. You beat yourself up and say, "I have no willpower. I'm the only loser on the planet who doesn't have a morning routine." And what I love so much about your work is you're about to show us, no, no, no, no, no. It's not a failure

in you. It's a failure in the things that you're going to teach us. >> Well, you know, a lot of the conversation about habits kind of frames things that way. You know, like if you hear people say, "Oh, you know, oh, I wish I just had the discipline to follow through on this." Or, "Hey, maybe if you really wanted to do it, then you would follow through." You know, maybe if you really wanted to do it, you would have more willpower, discipline, or grit. And, you know, I don't want to totally

in you. It's a failure in the things that you're going to teach us. >> Well, you know, a lot of the conversation about habits kind of frames things that way. You know, like if you hear people say, "Oh, you know, oh, I wish I just had the discipline to follow through on this." Or, "Hey, maybe if you really wanted to do it, then you would follow through." You know, maybe if you really wanted to do it, you would have more willpower, discipline, or grit. And, you know, I don't want to totally

dismiss discipline and willpower and grit. like they're all very important qualities in life. But I don't know that that answer is quite right. You know, I think many people I bet you know most people genuinely do want to improve, genuinely do want to perform at a higher level, genuinely would like to have better results. So what I would say is look, if you're struggling to improve, the problem isn't you. The problem is your system. You know, we don't change

not because we don't want to change, but because we have the wrong system for change. And if you can have the right system, the right elements in place, then improving becomes much easier. >> Well, I flagged that exact quote. I'm going to read to you from Atomic Habits, page 27. If you're having trouble changing your habits, the problem isn't you. The problem is your system. Bad habits repeat themselves again and again, not because you don't want to change, but

because you have the wrong system for change. You do not rise to the level of your goals. you fall to the level of your systems. And one of the core themes that you're going to teach us today is how to stop focusing on the goal or the change we want to make and really focus on the system that helps us create that goal. Would you define what exactly is a system? >> A system is just a collection of habits. So they can be it can be really small habits, but it's just it's a collection

of habits that are all oriented toward the same outcome. >> Oh, I'm thinking about how to make the habit stick. So you're first talking about, okay, you've got this result that you want. You have this goal, but what is the system, the daily things that you're going to be doing, >> in order to make this result happen in the future? Now, before we get into goals versus system, for somebody who hasn't read the book, could you talk about that concept in Atomic Habits, getting 1% better every day.

>> This is one of the key ideas in the book, and it's just this idea that tiny changes add up to a surprising or remarkable degree. So, the math of this, if you get 1% better each day for a year, so 1.01 01 to the 365th power, you get 37.78 times better by the end of the year. If you get 1% worse, so.99 to the 365th power, you drive yourself almost all the way down to zero. I think it's 0.03. Um, and so you have these results that are shockingly large or shockingly

small based on little tiny actions that you do each day. And I think it's interesting because you know, like what is the difference between a choice that's 1% better or 1% worse? I mean, on any given day, not a whole lot. I mean, what is the difference between somebody who reads for 10 minutes today and somebody who doesn't read at all? >> Basically nothing. You know, like reading for 10 minutes does not make you a genius. Um, but if you're the type of person who always goes to bed a little

bit smarter than they were when they woke up, the person who always finds a little bit of time to learn something new, yeah, that can be a pretty meaningful difference in wisdom and insight, especially over a 10, 20, 30 year period. >> [snorts] >> So, we all have these habits that we're doing each day and um it's easy to overlook them, but time will magnify whatever you feed it. So, if you have good habits, time becomes your ally and every day that goes by, you put yourself

in a stronger position. If you have bad habits, time becomes your enemy. And every day that goes by, you dig the hole a little bit deeper. And that's really what getting 1% better is about. It's this emphasis on trajectory rather than position. Now, if you had a a 747 that was sitting on the runway in Los Angeles, >> Yeah. >> and it takes off and it's going to go to New York. If you nudge the nose of the plane 6 feet at the start when it takes off, it you land in Washington DC rather

than New York City. >> And it's just about this difference that a tiny change can make. The the difference that a small improvement or being on a slightly different trajectory can result in. Small changes when they're compounded over a great distance or a long time can lead you to a very different result. It's hard to wrap your mind around the fact that if I just focus on getting 1% better every day for a year that I end up 37.7 times better. Can you give me like a

like like what if I do like a push-up every day then maybe at the end of the like No, I'm serious. I want to visualize what this is because that's amazing. >> I think first all first of all it's not really about getting caught up in the exact number. It's more about the philosophy. It's like an attitude and approach of can I try to find some small way to get better each day. >> Yeah. >> Um the math of it is just compound interest, you know, like it's just it's

just a compounding curve and compound interest is almost always surprising what it turns into in the long run. And the effects of your habits can also almost always be surprising what they can turn into. Now your habits are not exactly like a mathematical formula, right? Like your your life is not exactly like some equation that you're going to calculate. But the principle of trying to find some small way to improve and trusting with how that can accumulate and compound over time that

is very true and it also I think is very much how it feels on a given day which is the actions feel kind of insignificant on a daily basis. They're very easy to overlook on a daily basis and very surprising what they turn into good and bad a year or two or three from now. And so it's really about mastering those small daily actions and what that can lead us to in the long run. What are the top two or three surprising ones that if you did 1% better every day,

you'd be shocked at where you ended up in a year? >> You'd be surprised if you work on almost anything consistently for, say, 2 years. You're almost guaranteed to be in the top, you know, 1 to 5% of the population on it. I mean, nobody else is spending that amount of time on it. So, that doesn't mean that you're going to play in the NBA if you practice basketball for two years, but it does mean you will be a much better basketball player. >> You know, James, let's talk more about

this. There's a deeply personal story, something that happened to you that explains the 1% rule. >> Yeah. So, I, you know, I grew up in a family, played lots of different sports, and I played baseball for a long time. And when I was in high school, I suffered this really serious baseball injury where I was hit in the face with a baseball bat. And it was an accident. You know, a classmate of mine took a swing and kind of bat came out of his hands and uh rotated through the air and

this. There's a deeply personal story, something that happened to you that explains the 1% rule. >> Yeah. So, I, you know, I grew up in a family, played lots of different sports, and I played baseball for a long time. And when I was in high school, I suffered this really serious baseball injury where I was hit in the face with a baseball bat. And it was an accident. You know, a classmate of mine took a swing and kind of bat came out of his hands and uh rotated through the air and

struck me right between the eyes. Um, broke my nose. uh shattered both eye sockets, broke the bone behind my nose, kind of deeper inside your skull. I was aircared to the hospital and I was in a medically induced coma overnight. Um and then the next day my vitals had kind of stabilized to the point where they could release me from the coma and it was a really long road back. Um you know, I couldn't drive a car for the next 9 months. Uh when I went to my first physical therapy session, I was

practicing basic motor patterns like walking in a straight line, had double vision for weeks. [snorts] So it took a while. Um, and all I wanted, you know, I was a teenager. I was 16, 17 years old. All I wanted was to get back to being this normal young, healthy kid before, you know, be able to drive a car and go to baseball and play and whatever. [snorts] >> But it was a time in my life when I was forced to start small. >> You know, I had to just focus on what can I do at this physical therapy

session? Am I making any progress from today? Yeah. The last session to this one. um you know if I can't do anything physically couldn't play baseball for about a year then you know can I study and do well on this test or try try to find some small win some small improvement that I can make [snorts] and all the things that we're about to talk about today I would never have said it that way then like I wouldn't have said oh I'm just trying to get 1% better you

session? Am I making any progress from today? Yeah. The last session to this one. um you know if I can't do anything physically couldn't play baseball for about a year then you know can I study and do well on this test or try try to find some small win some small improvement that I can make [snorts] and all the things that we're about to talk about today I would never have said it that way then like I wouldn't have said oh I'm just trying to get 1% better you

know like I I didn't have a language for it um but it was an experience that forced me to realize um how small actions can be and still be meaningful >> yes and that progress can take a long arc. I barely played baseball in high school after the injury. I basically missed my whole the whole next year I went to college. First year I came off the bench. Uh second season I was a starter. Third season I was team captain. Then fourth year I was an academic all-American. And that's like a

five or six year arc from that stuff. And um I never played professionally. But I look back on that and I feel like I was able to maximize my potential. M >> and you know we all have things in life that we don't ask for. And this was one for me. It was one of the first things I said when I woke up the next day was I never asked for this. But you have to get out of that self-pity loop. It just does not serve you. A bad attitude and self-pity makes every problem harder.

And so you're just at layering on another challenge to the already challenging situation. And [snorts] so instead I tried to be as positive as I could about it, you know, and try to find things to to improve each day. And again, it took five or six years, but I think that process taught me a lot about building small habits and bouncing back from challenges. And so eventually, 10 years later, when it came time to write the book, I think the book is better because I struggled. It was better

because I had to go through that process. And now I know just like everybody else how hard it is to build habits, how long it takes to make progress, and you know, how challenging it can be to see the improvement that you've been wishing for. And so I think those struggles ended up resulting in better material. >> Wow. That that story really struck me when I read the book and I'm so glad you shared it because it does illustrate the power of the 1% rule. >> The human mind is a learning machine.

Almost every skill that you have today was previously unknown to you. When you were born, you didn't know how to tie your shoes or cut a tomato or make spaghetti or whatever. Um, but you know all that stuff now because you practiced it. And you can get better at anything that you practice. And I think it's interesting if you look at people, what are people spending their time practicing each day, you know, like a lot of people are practicing the art of getting mad on social media? People are

practicing the the fine craft of being fearful and reading about all the ways that the world is falling apart. They're practicing scrolling their phone, you know, like what what are you trying to get good at? I think it's worth to ask like what am I practicing each day? What am I training for? And every moment is a repetition and your brain will automatically get better at the things that you repeat. Uh whatever you repeat, you reinforce. And so you want to make sure you're reinforcing the right

things. >> What I love about what you just said is that often times when you're thinking about habits, you're thinking about the new ones. And we don't often have that moment of honest reflection with ourselves >> where we say, "Wait a minute, I already have a lot of habits. And if I don't like how my life looks and feels right now, whether that's the balance of my bank account or the way that my I feel in my body or the kind of relationship I'm in or my drinking habits or what I'm

things. >> What I love about what you just said is that often times when you're thinking about habits, you're thinking about the new ones. And we don't often have that moment of honest reflection with ourselves >> where we say, "Wait a minute, I already have a lot of habits. And if I don't like how my life looks and feels right now, whether that's the balance of my bank account or the way that my I feel in my body or the kind of relationship I'm in or my drinking habits or what I'm

doing with my free time, >> then changing my habits is the way I change the circumstances of my life. >> Here's an interesting one for you. I something like scrolling your phone or whatever. Mo most people would be like, "Yeah, that's probably one I don't want to do as much." But what I find interesting are the habits that used to serve me well but don't serve me as well now. That those have been much harder for me to give up. The way that I think about it is I like to ask myself this

question of what season am I in right now? >> You know, and life has a lot of different seasons. Sometimes there can be all kinds of reasons that seasons shift. You know, maybe it's you get married or you have a kid or maybe you move to a city or start a new job. I was just talking to a mom who she just became an empty neester and she's like, you know, for 25 years I've been taking care of these kids. Now all of a sudden nobody's here. Like what season am I in?

And what I've slowly learned I I can be a slow learner in a lot of ways. Um is when your seasons change, your habits often need to change. And I found, you know, for me, I a lot of the time I'll have a season shift and then I keep trying to force fit my old habits into this new season. Uh it takes me 18 months to realize, hey, something needs to change. And I think this is an important conversation to have about habits because people don't say this explicitly, but a lot of the time when

people are focused on their habits and they start something new, they don't say it to themselves, but they're kind of thinking in the back of their mind, what would it look like to be successful at this? Oh, well, I would just do this habit forever is what and if I stopped doing it at some point, that must mean that I failed or I quit or something like that. I I don't think it has to be like that at all. You know, like take my writing habit for example. For the first

three years, I wrote two articles a week. Those were about 2,000 words each. Then I signed the book deal for Atomic Habits. Season changes. Can't can't write those anymore. So that shifted. Then I worked on the book for 3 years. Now, uh, for the last 5 years, I've been writing a newsletter once a week. Um, that's much shorter. Um, but at no point in there do I feel like my writing habit failed. Just cuz I'm not writing two articles a week anymore doesn't mean that, I don't know, I screwed up or

something. um the habit just needed to change shape based on the season that I was in. And I think we should all give ourselves permission for our habits to shift based on the season that we're facing. >> That's so relatable and helpful because as you were talking about writing, I was thinking, well, that just happened for me >> around exercise and around nutrition, the more that I learn about the difference between men and women physiologically, the more I learn about

something. um the habit just needed to change shape based on the season that I was in. And I think we should all give ourselves permission for our habits to shift based on the season that we're facing. >> That's so relatable and helpful because as you were talking about writing, I was thinking, well, that just happened for me >> around exercise and around nutrition, the more that I learn about the difference between men and women physiologically, the more I learn about

hormone changes in women, the more I'm like, "Oh, wait a minute. running, yoga, that's not going to help me the way that it used to. I got to focus on protein and I got to focus on resistance training. Different season, different habits. >> Makes a lot of sense. >> Yeah, I think knowing which season you're in right now is a really helpful thing. There there's a certain there are like some questions I like to ask just for self-awareness. They help bubble up some insights about yourself that then

lead to some discoveries about maybe how I should shift my habits or whatever. So some of the questions I like, one is what am I optimizing for? Different people optimize for different things. You will probably optimize for different things at different points in your life. Sometimes you optimize for making money. Sometimes you optimize for free time or creative freedom. Sometimes you optimize for family. But whatever it is, the answer is probably very personal to you

and the season that you're in. So what am I optimizing for? >> Second question is, what season am I in right now? So we already talked about that. The third one can be a little bit cutting, but it's if I I call it like the it's kind of like the alien test or something. Imagine imagine that an alien comes down from outer space, right? It's going to follow you around throughout your day. Can't speak your language, can't communicate to you. If it could only see your actions and not hear your

words, what would it say your priorities are? The interesting thing, I think, especially about smart people, is you can come up with a good excuse for most things. You have very good reason for why things aren't happening. And so it's for very easy for you to talk uh your way out of why things didn't occur. Um but the alien can't hear you. It doesn't care. It's only looking at what you're spending your time on. And um it's just a nice way to kind of level set and you

know see, okay, I say things are a priority, but how am I actually spending my time? >> Tell me why these tiny changes create such massive transformation. Why it's frankly the only way? >> First of all, it it matters because it's doable. You know, you really only have a certain amount of time each day that you can work with. Everybody says, "Oh, you have the same 24 hours in a day." But it's even less than that. I think a more useful way to frame it is how many hours

per day are under your control. >> Oo, I love that. How many hours? >> There's very few. You know, there's very few. >> Thank you for telling the truth. >> And so, uh, really it's about what do you do with those one or two hours, you know, maybe three, I don't know, but there's, you know, how many are really under your control? And so, that amount of time is what you have to work with. And so, for that reason, starting small makes sense. Um, but the bigger thing,

and I I think that this is something I've learned over time, uh, and especially through that injury, is how fun it can be to make a small amount of progress. Even if you aren't where you wanted to be yet, you feel good. You know, you have something to look back on and be like, I got a little bit better today. So much of life is lived in this gray zone. Am I a better spouse today than I was yesterday? Am I a better friend? Did I improve my career? I, you know, I don't know. It's hard to know on

any given day. And so anytime that you can make a little bit of progress and be able to look back on that and be like, you know what, that was better than yesterday, that feels really nice. >> Um, and so I think that uh that's another reason. And then the third thing, and this is really what getting 1% better is actually about, okay, >> it's an it's about an emphasis on trajectory rather than position. >> You know, tell me what that means. >> Well, there's a lot of discussion about

position in life. You know, what's the number on the scale? How much money's in the bank account? What's the current stock price? What are the quarterly earnings? We have all these measurements, all these metrics for determining our current position. And then if the position isn't what we wanted it to be, if the number isn't what we like, then we get frustrated or we feel guilty or we start to judge ourselves. >> I'm not there yet. Why isn't this working? I haven't made it. I don't have

the money. I'm never going to get out of debt. >> And you hear people say things like this all the time. I've been running for a month. Why can't I see a change in my body? Um our, you know, team has been meeting every Friday for the last 6 months. We still haven't shipped this feature. And that that's when like the frustration starts to build. Uh-huh. >> And uh so it is not actually about your current position. What instead it is about is your current trajectory. Am I

the money. I'm never going to get out of debt. >> And you hear people say things like this all the time. I've been running for a month. Why can't I see a change in my body? Um our, you know, team has been meeting every Friday for the last 6 months. We still haven't shipped this feature. And that that's when like the frustration starts to build. Uh-huh. >> And uh so it is not actually about your current position. What instead it is about is your current trajectory. Am I

getting 1% better or 1% worse? >> How do you know? One of the things and I love that your last name's clear. You have the best >> onbrand name for the way that your brain thinks. But one of the biggest things that I see from the folks that listen around the world is not being clear about what you want and not knowing what you want. And so is there any way that you think about how to even understand this concept of trajectory? Right. >> So I don't think there's one answer. I

think there are many to this. Um but first thing is yes, you're right. Many people lack think what they lack is motivation, but what they really lack is clarity. >> Um, you know, you feel like, oh, I just need to get more motivated, but what you really need to know is what is what is the most important thing? What am I working on? The the motivation is actually quite easy if you're very clear about what the most important thing is. But usually people have seven things

that they say are important to them and then it's not easy because you're being pulled in all these different directions. >> [snorts] >> Um, the second thing is, uh, some of the best advice that I got early on in my business career was try things until something comes easily. And I think you can apply that adi advice to almost anything. Try things until something comes easily. >> And the point is >> there's this common um refrain of try try again. You know, if things don't

work, try try again. I think instead it would be better if it was phrased if things don't work, try try differently. You need to you need to keep trying. You need to keep showing up, but you need to try different lines of attack. You know, different things work better than others. And so by trying a range of options, especially early in a process, you put yourself in a much better position to succeed. >> So here, I'm going to try to tie all this together. So if I could add one

thing to Atomic Habits that wasn't in the book, >> it [snorts] would be this question of what would this look like if it was fun? >> What would this look like if it was fun? What would it look like if meditating was fun? What would it look like if going to the gym was fun? What would it look like if you know making a sales call each morning was fun? [snorts] And that doesn't mean that your habits are going to feel like the most fun thing in your life. You know, it's not like, oh,

this will feel like going to a concert or something. [snorts] But let's take just the like a common one like exercise. >> A lot of people go to the gym in January and I feel like they kind of are going because they feel like they should go or society wants them to go or something. >> [snorts] >> But if we just take 10 minutes and write out what are ways that we could live a healthy active lifestyle, there's dozens. You know, go to the gym, kayak, rock climb, do yoga, like you can come

up with a lot of things, right? And I think you should just write that list out for whatever the habit is that you're working on and then look at the 10 or 20 or 50 things that you have and then say, which one of these sounds like the most fun to me? You know, which one of these sounds most engaging? And you're much more likely to follow through on that than you are on something else. >> Okay. Can I give you an example? Because this is such an important nuance that

could truly change your ability to make something meaningful stick. Because when you started talking about the fact that, you know, as as you're trying exercise, let's say, I have the hardest time motivating myself. I'm very clear that I want to exercise four or five days a week because I want to live a healthy, vibrant life. I want to be hiking into my 90s and hundreds. I want to be able to dance at all my kids and grandkids weddings. Like, that's the why. And I

know that that means today I got to do this annoying thing called exercise. And it's always befuddled me that my husband with zero resistance, zero friction, can just walk right into a gym, motivate himself. My daughter's like that, too. Not me. I wander around like an idiot. I get bored. I can't stay motivated. I don't know. What I've discovered is that if I go to a class, it's fun. >> And so that question, how could I make this fun? What if this were fun? What

would that look like? That changes everything. >> The first key, the first hurdle to clear is to find things that are genuinely interesting to you, that are genuinely fun to you. You know, the person who felt like it was a hassle at the start or it kind of feels like it's a chore and they're sort of making themselves do it, as soon as it gets hard, they're going to stop. they didn't want to do it to begin with. But the person who is having fun, the person who's engaged and

interested, the person who's curious and excited about it, they're way more likely to stick with it when it gets hard. >> You know, one of the things that I'd love to have you unpack for us is, you know, when someone's sitting around waiting for motivation and they're struggling to either get started or they're struggling as they're waking up today to do the thing they say that they want to do. Could you unpack for the person listening why you have to take the

action first and how motivation shows up after the action not before. >> So a habit is a behavior that you want to do consistently, right? You want that you want to do consistent >> that you want to do consistently. >> Okay. >> Motivation we all know sometimes you're motivated, sometimes you're not. And motivation rises and falls throughout the day. So why would you want a behavior that you want to do consistently to rely on something that fluctuates? It doesn't make sense. And

so this is a good reason why you want to scale habits down to a level where they're so easy to do. Getting into it is so simple that you'll do it even when motivation is low. And so this is another reason for the phrase atomic habits, right? It's about making it tiny and small so that you stick to it even when motivation isn't there. >> What does that mean to scale down? If I'm trying to meditate or I'm trying to exercise or I'm trying to make that sales call,

>> I'll give you two examples. So there's this concept in chemistry called activation energy. It's how much energy is required to activate a reaction. So you can think about like striking a match. There's a certain amount of effort that you have to put in to strike the match and for the flame to start. Okay? Your habits are kind of like that. Some habits have really big activation energy. If you want to do a 100 push-ups a day, that requires a certain amount of

motivation. You got to keep doing sets of five and 10 throughout the day or whatever. And if it gets to 9:00 one day and it's time to go to bed and you haven't done your 100 push-ups yet, I got to kind of motivate yourself quite a bit to get that in before you go to sleep. >> I need gasoline for the bonfire in that case. Yes. >> So, if your uh objective instead is to do 10 push-ups a day, well then it's 9:00 and you still haven't got them in yet. You're like, I can probably do 10

motivation. You got to keep doing sets of five and 10 throughout the day or whatever. And if it gets to 9:00 one day and it's time to go to bed and you haven't done your 100 push-ups yet, I got to kind of motivate yourself quite a bit to get that in before you go to sleep. >> I need gasoline for the bonfire in that case. Yes. >> So, if your uh objective instead is to do 10 push-ups a day, well then it's 9:00 and you still haven't got them in yet. You're like, I can probably do 10

before I go to sleep. That's that's probably doable. Um, and so you can see these two habits have very different activation energies. They have very different amount of effort that they're requiring from you. So scaling it down is choosing the thing that's easy to do that has small activation area. >> So that' be 10 push-ups a day. >> Do 10 instead of a 100. Read instead of reading 30 books a year, it's read one page, right? It's like stuff like that. Scale it down. >> Okay.

>> There is something that can be tied to this or is related to this, which is a phrase that I feel like I remind myself of a lot, which is reduce the scope, but stick to the schedule. So there's so many times where the day kind of gets away from you, you know, like things get busy. Let's say you wanted to work out today and then you look up the clock and you know you were planning on doing an hour workout or 45 minutes and you only have 15 or 20 minutes.

>> In that moment, the conversation I used to have with myself was, well, I guess I don't have time to work out today and then you move on. But instead, what I'm trying is to say reduce the scope but stick to the schedule. And so I'll go down I'll change in my workout clothes and go down to the my basement and go down to this little home gym area that I have and maybe I only have 15 minutes and I can only do one set of squats, but that's what I do. And in some ways I

feel like the bad days matter more than the good days. You know, it's showing up on the days when it's not ideal. It's showing up on the days when you don't have energy or time or capacity that keeps the habit alive. And if you keep the habit alive, all you need is time. But if you throw up a zero now the streak is broken and sometimes one day can turn into five days and can turn into three months and then you find yourself wanting to get back on track. And I think rather than asking yourself

what can I do on my best day, you should start by asking what can I stick to even on the bad days. >> Oh, I love that. >> That becomes your baseline. >> Okay, so you've already given us two incredible things which is what if this were fun? What would it look like if it were fun? And as you're thinking about the beginning of a habit, defining it by what could I actually stick to even on my worst day, >> right? >> How is it that motivation shows up after the action?

>> Because you have this feeling of progress. Now you have something that you, oh look, I've made some I've made some movement forward. You know, you have something to look at. It's the difference between um hope and evidence. Now you have some evidence and so you have a reason to believe it. Say, "Oh, look, you know, look at myself moving forward." And that starts to feel really good once you stack a couple days together. You know, it doesn't I think this is one of the lessons of my work,

which is it doesn't take much to feel good again. You'd be surprised what you can do with five good minutes. You know, five good minutes of conversation can restore a relationship. Five good minutes of exercise will leave you winded and like reset your energy and mood for the day. Five good minutes of writing will make you feel like the manuscript is moving forward again. It doesn't take much to feel good. And so you just need a little bit to get you get yourself back on the path.

>> That's the entire premise of this podcast that it's takes so little to make you feel good again and once you do the progress and the momentum kicks in. If you're the kind of person who's listening and you're like, "God, I've just failed too many times and so you feel discouraged about starting again." Whether it's putting yourself back out there on the dating scene or it's >> dusting off your resume after getting laid off and feeling like what value do I have to offer or you tried yet again

to lose the weight or to stick to the meditation and you failed again. So what is the failure premortem? >> Okay, so first you want optimism. My little shorthand is I I don't want to be my own bottleneck. Okay, so um I try to work backwards from magic at the start. What would the magical outcome be? What would the thing that I really want to achieve look like? What's the optimal outcome look like? [snorts] Then the next phase, this is where the failure premortem comes in. So you switch from

optimism to pessimism. All right, I know where I want to go. So now let's be let's be my own critic for a minute. the failure premortems. It's just this simple question of if we look back six month six six months from now and this has failed, where does it fail? So, it's just you're pre-analyzing where the potential points >> before you even you haven't done anything yet, but you're trying to be the one to figure out what are the flaws in what I'm about to do. Okay?

>> And so, the the failure premortem just says if this fails, where does it fail? >> And you can come up with all kinds of things like that. Let me give you an example for habits. So, like let's say that you want to start going to the gym. >> Yes. and you're like, "Well, if this plan fails, where does it fail?" And you it might fail because you don't know which gym you're going to use. So you're like, "All right, I'll pick one that's on the route of my commute each day." So

then you say, "Okay, it might fail because I don't have my gym clothes ready." So you're like, "All right, I need to set my clothes out the night before or have my gym bag ready early." I [snorts] had one person who they were like, "I am going to the gym and I wish I could stick to it more, but I just this gym doesn't have a water fountain." And so when I go there, I'm like, uh, I always forget to bring my water bottle, and that's enough to make me be like, I'm not going to go cuz they I they

don't have a water fountain there. And little points of friction like that kind sound kind of silly when you say it, but you're like, yeah, that's a that's a potential point of failure, and you need to have a plan for getting your water bottle full and make sure that you bring that each day. And so you start to check off these boxes of what are the things that could hold you back from this plan working. And then you switch back to optimism because what you don't want is

to go into this process feeling like you're doubting yourself to begin with. >> I'm screwed. I why am I even doing this? >> That's not that attitude is just going to make it harder. So you start with optimism, you switch to pessimism, try to poke the holes in your argument, and then you're back. We're back to optimism again. We want everybody on board and feel like we've got the right attitude going into it. >> Okay. I love this because one of the things that I immediately thought as you

were using the gym example is I immediately could pop into the pessimism mindset >> and I think I'm a good problem solver but I was like okay well I don't know what to do at a gym >> and so I walk around and then feel overwhelmed and intimidated because I'm not quite sure what the routine should be and then I leave. Mhm. >> The other one is I would immediately see that I would have shot the goal too high >> and would have started with an hour every day for the next 6 months.

>> And so now I'm like, "Oh, wait a minute. I got to reduce the time and stick to the schedule and what could I get done on my worst day? >> So what could the goal be?" So now I'm using your tools. And then I finally am now saying, "Well, I would about a weekend go, this isn't fun anymore." And so I can see how you can anticipate ways in which you would break your own >> ability to make it happen. >> So two things here. The first is some of this depends on how you're measuring

things. It can really be helpful to pick a different form of measurement. So if you take like going to the gym, what's the common measurement? Everybody's like, "What's the scale say? And how do you look in the mirror?" That's what everybody's measuring. But let's forget about that. Measure it in a totally different way. So this reader, his name is Mitch, and I mentioned him in Atomic Habits. When he first started going to the gym, all right, so he lost over 100

things. It can really be helpful to pick a different form of measurement. So if you take like going to the gym, what's the common measurement? Everybody's like, "What's the scale say? And how do you look in the mirror?" That's what everybody's measuring. But let's forget about that. Measure it in a totally different way. So this reader, his name is Mitch, and I mentioned him in Atomic Habits. When he first started going to the gym, all right, so he lost over 100

pounds. He's kept off for more than a decade now. And when he first started going, he had this strange little rule for himself where he wasn't allowed to stay for longer than 5 minutes. So he'd get in the car, drive to the gym, get out, do half an exercise, get back in the car, drive home. And it sounds silly, you know, you're like, "This doesn't this is not going to get him the results that you want." But [snorts] if you take a step back, what you realize is he was mastering the art of

pounds. He's kept off for more than a decade now. And when he first started going, he had this strange little rule for himself where he wasn't allowed to stay for longer than 5 minutes. So he'd get in the car, drive to the gym, get out, do half an exercise, get back in the car, drive home. And it sounds silly, you know, you're like, "This doesn't this is not going to get him the results that you want." But [snorts] if you take a step back, what you realize is he was mastering the art of

showing up, >> right? He was becoming the type of person that went to the gym four days a week, even if it was only for 5 minutes. And that's that's the different form of measurement there. He's not measuring the results. He's measuring did I show up or not. And that gives him something else to win on in the early days. >> [snorts] >> I think this is a pretty deep truth about habits. Something that people like often overlook, which is a habit must be established before it can be improved.

>> It has to be >> Hold on a second. A habit must be established before it can be improved. >> A habit must be established before it can be improved. You have to standardize before you optimize. I mean, how often in our lives do we try to optimize things before we get started? You know, you're so busy finding the perfect sales strategy, the best workout plan, the ideal diet to follow, >> best journal, >> right? You want to you want to optimize everything from the start. Um

>> because it makes me think I'm doing it, James. >> Right. That's exactly it. >> It's a form of procrastination for me. >> I call it the difference between motion and action. >> So motion are things that make you feel like you're making progress. So I'm going to look up a trainer that maybe could help me at the gym. Doesn't matter how many times you look up trainers in your area. It's not going to do anything to get you fit. Doesn't mean you don't need a trainer. It doesn't mean you

shouldn't use one. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that action is never going to result in the outcome that you want. [snorts] Doing a set of squats or doing five push-ups that now that's something that could get the results that you want. [snorts] Um and so uh researching business names want to launch a business. Let me or designing a logo doesn't matter how many times you design your business logo, it's never going to result in a paying customer. Um doesn't mean a business doesn't need a

logo, but it's just one is motion, one is action. So action is a a behavior that can get the result that you want. Motion is a behavior that makes you feel like you're making progress. >> Um, one of the things that I love about the way that you think about habits and behavior change is you talk about the connection between identity and behavior. And you write you know who do I want to become is a way better question to ask yourself than what do I want to achieve? Why?

>> I think it's very natural to start with results and outcomes. But the results are not the thing that you really need to change. You know, what you need is to be consistent, to stick with it. You need to show up consistently. You need to follow through on, you know, the actions that are going to lead to that outcome. >> So, I kind of think of it almost like the layers of an onion. >> Okay? >> So, the outermost layer of the onion are the results that you want the outcome.

So, let's say lose 40 pounds. Okay? The next layer in is the action, the plan that you have. The the actions that you take. Most of the time when people want to make a change, they're like, "Yeah, I you know, I want this result, so I need to do follow through on this plan. I need to go to the gym four days a week and eat on this diet or whatever." And the implicit assumption is if I do those things and get that result, then I'll be who I want to be. I'll I'll be happy

with who I am. I'll be more like the person that I hope to be. [snorts] But the innermost layer of the onion, the core is who you are, your identity, who who you become. And so it's like what, how, and who. And instead of starting with what you want and figuring out how to do it and assuming that I will then be the person I want to be, I think it is better to invert that process and start by saying, who do I wish to become? Or in this example, who is the type of person that could lose 40 lbs?

Well, maybe it's the type of person who doesn't miss workouts. And then you're focused on that, not on the weight. And so what it does is by focusing on the identity, it kind of inverts how you think about the habit. Rather than it being about hitting a certain number on the scale, it becomes about becoming a certain type of person. Being the type of person who doesn't miss workouts in this example, your habits are how you embody a particular identity. So every

day that you make your bed, you embody the identity of someone who is clean and organized. If you study biology for 20 minutes on Tuesday night, you embody the identity of someone who is studious. Your habits provide evidence of who you are. This is the real reason, the deeper reason that habits matter. We often talk about habits as mattering because of the external results that they get you. Hey, habits will help you be more productive or make more money or reduce stress. And

like look, habits can do all that stuff and that's great, but the real reason, the true reason that habits matter is that every action you take is like a vote for the type of person you wish to become. So, no, doing one push-up does not transform your body, but it does cast a vote for I'm the type of person that doesn't miss workouts. >> And no, giving one bit of positive feedback to somebody on your team does not make you the world's best leader, but it does cast a vote for I'm the type

of team member who cares about the people around them. [snorts] And I think this is a little bit different than what you often hear. You often hear something like fake it till you make it. >> Yeah. >> And I don't necessarily have anything wrong with fake it till you make it. It's asking you to believe something positive about yourself. However, it's asking you to believe something positive without having evidence for it. And we have a word for beliefs that don't have

evidence. Call that delusion. Right? Like we have this mismatch between what you say you are and what you're actually doing. And [snorts] so my encouragement is to let the behavior lead the way. to let sending one email or writing one sentence or meditating for five minutes to let that small action be evidence that in that moment you were that kind of person and then as you start to cast votes for that identity you have every reason in the world to believe it and so

evidence. Call that delusion. Right? Like we have this mismatch between what you say you are and what you're actually doing. And [snorts] so my encouragement is to let the behavior lead the way. to let sending one email or writing one sentence or meditating for five minutes to let that small action be evidence that in that moment you were that kind of person and then as you start to cast votes for that identity you have every reason in the world to believe it and so

I think this is what really gets habits to stick it is the reinforcement of your story >> it's the reinforcement of how you see yourself and the identity that you're trying to build and that's why I say I think we should often start by asking not what do I wish to achieve, but who do I wish to become? And how are my actions reinforcing that? And if you can get those two things aligned, now you have a really deep throughine from your daily actions to this bigger, larger

identity that you want to build. And if you can connect the things that you do each day, those small choices with the person that you want to be in the long run, you can see how important they are even when they're little. >> I want to make sure that as you're listening or watching, you really got that question. Who do I want to become? If you start there and you start with a vision for the kind of person you want to become and then we invert that onion that you were talking about. So you know

who you want to become. Then you ask yourself, well, how do I become that kind of person and what do I need to do? Now we have a road map that leads you to the small daily habits that cast the vote to get you there. >> I think what we're ultimately trying to get to is a place where you take pride in being that kind of person. Well, this brings us to one of my absolute favorite parts of Atomic Habits and your research. This changed my entire mindset and honestly changed the type of person

that I am. And it's the difference between setting goals versus focusing on systems. And so I want to read to you from this section titled forget about goals, focus on systems instead. And you're right, for many years, uh, this was how I approached my habits. Each one was a goal to be reached. I set goals for the grades I wanted to get in school, for the weights I wanted to lift in the gym, for the profits I wanted to earn in business. I succeeded at a few, but I failed at a lot of them. The

results had very little to do with the goals I set and nearly everything to do with the systems I followed. What's the difference between systems and goals? It's a distinction. I first learned from Scott Adams, a cartoonist behind the Dilbert comic. Goals are about the results you want to achieve. Systems are about the processes that lead to those results. And you write about this just one example that made so much sense. If you're a coach, your goal might be to

win a championship, but your system is the way you recruit players, manage your assistant coaches, and conduct practice. and you pose this interesting question. What if you completely ignored your goals and you focused on your system? And I'd love to unpack this because I do think that this is where I got things wrong for so long. I was very focused on defining goals and I spent little to no time really looking at the systems that create progress toward those goals. Can you unpack this for us?

>> I was like that too. I think of my nature is I'm naturally very goal oriented and outcome oriented and you know we all want better results, right? >> Um so I don't think goals are ever going to be like a zero in your life and you're never going to think about them. It's just so natural to focus on them. What I'm trying to encourage here is to focus on the other side of the equation which is the daily habits that you are following. If I was going to put a little finer point on the language

there, what do I mean by goal and system? >> Yes, >> your goal is your desired outcome, the target, the thing you're shooting for. What is your system? It's the collection of daily habits that you follow. And if there is ever a gap between your goal and your system, if there's ever a gap between your desired outcome and your daily habits, your daily habits will always win. I mean, almost by definition, your current habits are perfectly designed to deliver your

current results. Whatever habits you've been following for the last 6 months or year or two years, it's carried you almost inevitably to the outcomes that you have right now. So, where I've kind of come down on this after thinking about it for a little while is goals are good for clarity. They're good for setting a sense of direction. Get everybody rowing the boat in the same same direction. They can be good for filtering. So, if somebody comes to you with an opportunity and they say, "Hey,

current results. Whatever habits you've been following for the last 6 months or year or two years, it's carried you almost inevitably to the outcomes that you have right now. So, where I've kind of come down on this after thinking about it for a little while is goals are good for clarity. They're good for setting a sense of direction. Get everybody rowing the boat in the same same direction. They can be good for filtering. So, if somebody comes to you with an opportunity and they say, "Hey,

do you want to do this?" You can run it through your list of goals and say, "Well, does this get me closer to what I want or not?" Maybe it makes it easier to say yes or no to that. But the vast majority of your time should be spent focused on building a better system. Goals are good for people who care about winning once. Systems are best for people who care about winning repeatedly. >> You know, if you really want to make progress and make it again and again, if

you want to get high performance and keep the performance high, you need some set of systems, some collection of daily habits to keep you up there. The other interesting thing that I realized is that the winners and the losers often have the same goals. You know, if you have a job opening and 100 people apply, presumably every candidate has the goal of getting the job. the goal is not the thing that determines the outcome. It's presentation skills in the interview,

who they know at the company, education, experience, like all sorts of things, right? Or um you know, at the Olympics, presumably every athlete who's competing has the goal of winning the gold medal. You know, the goal is not the thing that determines the outcome. Again, it's genetic ability, talent, coaching, strategy, how much sleep they got the night before, like all sorts of factors. And so if the winners and the losers have the same goals, the goal cannot be

the thing that makes the difference in their performance. It has to be something else. And that something else is the system. It's their daily habits. So you've talked a lot about this word systems. I would love to have you just break down some for some of the habits that people tend to take on a lot. What about for saving money? What might be a system just to jog the person who's listening? So, here's an interesting one that one of my readers uses. Saving money is an

interesting and there's an interesting category of habits which are things that you basically don't do and then you need to feel good about it. Like saving money is basically when I don't spend is when I'm achieving this goal. And you know, it's like not playing video games or don't drink wine. Like things like that are uh tricky to feel good about because you're just resisting doing something. >> So, [snorts] I thought this was a clever solution. I have I have this one reader.

He and his wife wanted to eat out less, spend less money eating out at restaurants and cook at home more. But again, if you just, well, we're not going to go out to eat tonight, that doesn't really feel great. So, what they came up with was they opened a separate savings account and they labeled it trip to Europe. And then anytime that they stayed home, they would move 20 or 50 bucks or whatever over that they were going to spend that night. They move that over to the account. And what they

get in the moment is the feeling of, oh, we're building toward this vacation that we want to go on. Um, and then at the end of the year, they took the money and put it toward the trip. Um, and so they found a way to take something that usually doesn't have much of a benefit and give it a positive association, a positive feeling. And so that was part of their system for saving money or for not eating out was well first we're going to move the money over and then

we're going to choose what recipe recipe are we making tonight and then we go into the kitchen and prep it and whatever. And so it's just a simple couple pro steps but it makes it a lot more enjoyable. >> What about a system for eating healthier? >> Eating healthier is interesting and it's a tricky one. Um, I think it provides a good example of people will say something that they think is simple, but it's actually not that simple. They think they're making it easy and simple,

but they need to scale it down even more. So, like let's say somebody says, "All right, I'm just going to focus on one habit. I'm just going to try to eat healthy." >> Well, you know what is involved in that, right? Like, if you're if you're currently eating a lot of meals out or ordering a lot of meals. Well, first you need to decide what you're going to make. You need a grocery shopping habit. So, you got to get the stuff. You need some meal prep habits. Maybe you even

need new skills like do you need knife skills or like learn how to do some stuff that maybe didn't know how to do before. After you make the meal, you have a bunch of dishes that need to be cleaned. So now you need to develop like a cleaning habit of washing those. So there's actually like six or seven things that are all separate habits. So I would say you can try to scale this down and start easy on yourself. And maybe you know for like let's take doing the dishes for example, maybe for the

first week you just eat off of paper plates. And no, it's not super sustainable. It's not the thing that you want to do forever, but you're trying to take one element out of the equation so that you make it easier for yourself to do it. Um, another example that I thought was interesting, I talked to one woman who she took this idea of, we talked about earlier, what would this look like if it was fun? >> So, she wanted to start eating healthier and bring her her lunch into work each

day, but she realized the making a salad didn't sound that fun to her. Yeah. >> And so, she came up with this phrase that she called a party in a bowl. And so she would make a salad, but she would do like all kinds of wild things at the start, like she would chop up Snickers bars and throw them in or she would like crumble potato chips on top or whatever. She just wanted it to feel like a party in a bowl. And she did that for the first like two weeks or month. And then

after a month of bringing her lunch in, she was like, "Okay, now I'm actually making it every morning." Um, then she was like, "How can I make this healthier? Um, how can I, you know, improve the quality of this?" And so >> I love, by the way, the potato chips on the salad. I think that sounds fantastic. What a great idea. Little crunch, >> right? >> Little salt, >> texture seems good. Um, but you know, how do you make it fun? How do you increase the odds that you master the

art of showing up? That's kind of that's the like first hurdle to clear. >> Yeah. And what I also loved is that you're identifying for us the fact that we trip over ourselves because we make the results that we want either too big or too vague. that we underestimate the complexity of the amount of change we're asking ourselves to make. >> If you start with perfection as the bar, it becomes really hard to get started. >> How do you think or what have some of

your readers said about the systems and habits related to cutting back on something like drinking or vaping or one of those things? >> Yes. Let's talk a little bit about breaking bad habits. There's kind of there's if if you want to break a bad habit yes >> there are three different things you could do. So, first thing is you could eliminate it entirely. So, cut it out cold turkey. All right. Second way to break a bad habit is you could reduce it. So you don't necessarily stop it,

you just reduce it to your desired degree. I would say a lot of people probably feel this way about their phones. It's not that I never want to use my phone. I just want to use it a little bit less or scroll a little bit less or whatever. >> Yes. >> Um and then the third category is you could replace it. >> So you can eliminate, you can reduce, or you can replace. Those are really your three options if you want to break a bad habit. And if you replace it, then

you're substituting a new habit in its place. Um hopefully one that's more healthier or more productive. >> [snorts] >> Um, let me kind of answer these in reverse order. All right, so replace it. Habits, we talked a little bit early on about some ways to define a habit. Here's another way to define it. A habit is a solution to a recurring problem in your environment. Right? So, it's a solution to a recurring problem that you face. Let's say, for example, you come

home from work and it's 5:30 and you're feeling exhausted and tired from a long day. All right? That is a recurring problem that is going to happen throughout the weeks and months that your brain has to figure out how to solve. And for one person, maybe they solve it by scrolling on Instagram for 30 minutes. >> For another person, the way they solve it is maybe they smoke a cigarette. For a third person, maybe the way they solve it is they go for a run. And you can see

that some of these solutions are healthier than others, but they're all solving the same root problem, which is I feel stressed and exhausted and tired after a long day, and I want to find a way to reset and kind of change my energy. [snorts] >> Um, and early in your life, I think particularly in your 20s, you may have this realization where the solutions that you have to the problems that you face are kind of things that you inherited or you picked up from your

parents. uh you know what are the odds that the first way that you learn to solve this problem is the best way mathematically speaking it's very unlikely that the way that your current solutions to the problems that you face are the best solutions. >> So let me just give you an example. So if you uh grew up in a household where you saw mom or dad come home from a long day at work and they poured themselves a glass of wine as a way to unwind, turn off their brain, step into the evening.

parents. uh you know what are the odds that the first way that you learn to solve this problem is the best way mathematically speaking it's very unlikely that the way that your current solutions to the problems that you face are the best solutions. >> So let me just give you an example. So if you uh grew up in a household where you saw mom or dad come home from a long day at work and they poured themselves a glass of wine as a way to unwind, turn off their brain, step into the evening.

If you inherited that habit as the way you solve the problem of I've had a long day at work, I'm totally stressed. I want a quick way to de-stress. And the habit is pour a glass of wine or pour a drink. That's an example of the type of thing you're talking about. >> Yeah. And I think the first step is not to judge yourself for it or to feel guilty about it. You don't you don't need to feel bad about it. It's just it's almost like sometimes I try to look at my habits almost like I'm going to

the zoo. You know how you like go and look at an animal, you're like, "Oh, how interesting that they would do that." You know, like, "Oh, oh, isn't that silly that they behave in that way?" Like you kind of look at yourself with that lens. You're like, "Oh, okay. Interesting that I'm doing this." Um, [snorts] >> and you just want to see things clearly. >> And then once you see how you're actually behaving, well, then there are adjustments that you can make. And I

the zoo. You know how you like go and look at an animal, you're like, "Oh, how interesting that they would do that." You know, like, "Oh, oh, isn't that silly that they behave in that way?" Like you kind of look at yourself with that lens. You're like, "Oh, okay. Interesting that I'm doing this." Um, [snorts] >> and you just want to see things clearly. >> And then once you see how you're actually behaving, well, then there are adjustments that you can make. And I

think at that point, you realize, all right, it's not my fault necessarily that I'm doing these things or that I learned this way to do it, [snorts] but now it is my responsibility to make the change. The next level is you say, "All right, I'm going to try to reduce the amount of time that I do this." One way that I try to practice this, so I have a home office and I have this little rule where I try to keep my phone in another room until lunch each day. Um, usually

it ends up being like 9 to 11, 9 to noon, something like that. And I can't do it all the time, but I can do it maybe 70% of the time. And whenever I do it, I think it's interesting because it's like the phone is just down the hallway. It's only 30 seconds away, but I never go get it. And so I'm like, did I want it or not? You know, on the one hand, I wanted it so bad that when it was next to me, I would check it every 3 minutes. And on the other hand, I never

wanted it badly enough that I would be willing to work 30 seconds and go down the hall and get it. And a lot of your habits are like that. They will curtail themselves to the desired degree if you just introduce a little bit of distance or a little bit of friction. The more that um you increase friction between you and the behavior, the more likely it is to reduce itself. Mhm. >> So there are a lot of environmental changes that could potentially work there.

>> Talk to us about the environment and the role that environment plays in terms of sticking to habits. >> There's a chapter in atomic habits that's called the secret to self-control. >> And there's a story that many of us tell ourselves which is oh you know if I was just more disciplined, if I just had more self-control then I would be able to do these things. But the big takeaway from the research in that chapter, the surprising insight is that when you look

at people who exhibit high levels of self-control, the common pattern across them is not that they have higher discipline than the average person. The common pattern is that they are in situations where they're attempted less frequently. >> Tempted less frequently. Fewer temptations is the single biggest driver of exhibiting high self-control. And so the the lesson is you don't need to try to be more disciplined. You don't need to wish that you were a person with more

willpower. You need to take a little bit of time to design an environment where you're not tempted as frequently. So that could mean simple things like not having chips in the house or not having cigarettes in the house or things like that. Um it could mean more complicated things like looking at your relationships and saying who are the people that have the behaviors that I want to have. You know what what are the common habits of my friend group or my peer group? And that's not necessarily

willpower. You need to take a little bit of time to design an environment where you're not tempted as frequently. So that could mean simple things like not having chips in the house or not having cigarettes in the house or things like that. Um it could mean more complicated things like looking at your relationships and saying who are the people that have the behaviors that I want to have. You know what what are the common habits of my friend group or my peer group? And that's not necessarily

saying I never see these people again, but maybe I only see them in pockets, you know, or in certain situations. And then other people I'm trying to expose myself to more and hang out with more. And um so those are all ways that you can start to think about where are the temptations in my life or where am I having to where do I need to go against the grain of the situation to have the habits that I want to have and where am I working with the gradient of the situation

>> and working with because it's actually taking me in the direction of the kind of person I want to become and working against is you recognize you're in an environment that is taking you away from the kind of person you want to become. Let's stay for a second on people. What are the systems or changes or ways that that you think about being surrounded by people >> that are supporting who you want to become? >> It's a huge driver of our habits. There there's a chapter in Atomic Habits um

about the influence of friends and family on our behaviors. And I think if I could write it again, I would even expand it because it's it's even bigger than I think I realized. So humans are very social creatures. We we all have a deep desire to bond and connect to to be part of something. And if people have to choose between, you know, I have habits that I don't really love, but I fit in, I belong, I'm part of something, I'm supported, or I have the habits that I

want to have, but I'm cast out. I'm ostracized, I'm criticized. A lot of the time, the desire to belong will overpower the desire to improve. And so, as best as possible, you need to get those two things aligned. Um, and I think the way to do it is you want to join groups where your desired behavior is the normal behavior. Because if your desired behavior is normal, as you make friendships and build relationships in that group, you're going to soak up so many big and little habits from the

people that are part of that group. We all belong to multiple groups or multiple tribes. Some of them are large, like what it means to be American or what it means to be French. Some of them are small, like what it means to be a neighbor on your street or a member of the local CrossFit gym or a volunteer at the elementary school. But all of those groups, large and small, have a set of expectations for how you act. You know, like take the neighbor on the street

example. If I walk outside and look at my neighbor's house and they're mowing the lawn, I might think, "Oh, I need to cut the grass, too." And you might stick to that habit for 5 years or 10 years, however long you live in the house. Like, we wish we had that level of consistency with our other habits. And why do you do it? Partially you do it because it feels good to have a clean lawn, but mostly you do it because you don't want to be the sloppy one who's

example. If I walk outside and look at my neighbor's house and they're mowing the lawn, I might think, "Oh, I need to cut the grass, too." And you might stick to that habit for 5 years or 10 years, however long you live in the house. Like, we wish we had that level of consistency with our other habits. And why do you do it? Partially you do it because it feels good to have a clean lawn, but mostly you do it because you don't want to be the sloppy one who's

like ruining how the neighborhood looks. So you want to join groups where your desired habits align with the expectations of the group so that you don't have to run against that friction. >> [snorts] >> one of the best things that I ever did in my entrepreneurial career. So, I have no authors in my family, no entrepreneurs in my family, but I um looked around and I said, "Who are some other people that are doing the thing that I want to do, you know, they're like two or three years ahead of me?"

This was like maybe 10 years ago. >> And I started hosting these retreats where I would get other authors together, six or eight people, and I say, "Let's just split the cost of an Airbnb, get together for like two days, and we'll talk about how to build an audience and how to write a book and how to launch a book." Um, so anyway, the point being that requires a little bit of courage, you know, like I I reached out to people. I was always worried that I was going to look like a dummy and,

you know, be like, "You want to go hang out for two days?" And everybody be like, "No." You know, but um, but everybody says yes because they're waiting for the same thing, which is people want like-minded people to get together. They're waiting for somebody to gather people together. >> So, um, sometimes the spaces are ready for you. Sometimes it requires a little bit of courage to create it, but the outcome is the same, which is you're trying to put yourself in a room with

people who have your desired behaviors. >> James, what are the four stages of building habits? >> Well, all habits go through this kind of four-step loop here. I can draw it out. >> Great. So, he's grabbing a quick whiteboard if you're listening. >> So, you have these four stages almost like a a quadrant, but you you start and the beginning of it is there's some kind of Q. >> Okay? So, I'll just put a C there for Q. Okay? Right? So you have the Q and that leads to a craving which then drives a

response and then ultimately you get a reward and so you kind of go around the loop like this >> Q craving response reward Q craving response reward and it's true for little things like let's [snorts] say that you um walk into a room the room is dark and you the cue is oh the room's dark I want to be able to see >> the craving is I want to be able to see the response is I flip the light switch and then the reward is oh now the lights are on, I can see. Um, but it's true for

other stuff, too. Like the cue might be um you're driving down the road and you hear an ambulance come up from behind you. The siren is an auditory cue. Okay? >> Or your phone buzzes in your pocket. That's a physical cue that starts the habit of checking your phone. Or um you see a plate of cookies on the counter in the kitchen. That's a visual cue that starts the habit of eating a cookie. So, you have the queue that leads to the craving. Um you hear the s the siren

from the ambulance. Oh, now I need to pull to the side of the road. Oh, and the craving is just the impulse to do something. >> The desire, the mo, the the desire to do something. So, Q, craving, response, reward. Um, >> and you know what's interesting is now I'm understanding as you're explaining a habit >> is that you're not even really thinking about those things. They're just all kind of sandwiched together in that loop you just drew. >> It can happen almost instantaneously,

like all inside of a whole second, you know, like it's but it it's very rapid and it's um once a habit is established, it's almost entirely non-concious. How does that connect to the four laws that you created around behavior change? >> So, we have this scientific backbone, these four stages, Q, craving, response, reward. And we know that our behaviors are going through that cycle each day. And what I care about is how do I operationalize that? How do I translate

this into something actionable for daily life and work? And so, that's why I came up with what I call the four laws of behavior change. >> All right. Well, let's go into the four laws. >> So, the first law is to make it obvious. You want the cues of your habits to be obvious, available, visible, easy to see. The easier it is for a habit to be noticed and for it to get your attention, the more likely are to act on it. The second law is to make it attractive. So, this comes back to that

question we asked earlier about what would this look like if it was fun. >> Yeah. >> The more fun, the more engaging, the more um motivating or enticing a habit is, the more likely you are to follow through on it. All right. So, make it attractive. The third law is to make it easy. The easier, more convenient, frictionless, simple a habit is, the more likely it is to be performed. And the fourth and final law is to make it satisfying. So the more satisfying or

enjoyable a habit is, the more rewarding or pleasurable it is, the more likely you are to feel compelled to do it. The first three laws, make it obvious, make it attractive, make it easy. Those three are about priming you to get started. They're about making it easy to get into the habit this time. The fourth law, make it satisfying. That like closes the feedback loop. The behavior's already happened at that point, but the reward is important because it helps you feel good

>> and that gets you to show up again the next time. Make it obvious, make it attractive, make it easy, make it satisfying. >> If you're trying to build a new habit, if you're sitting there and you're thinking, you know, I have >> this habit that I want to do, but I keep procrastinating on it. >> Let's take let's take exercising since that's the number one thing people want to do. I wish I could get to the gym, but I just haven't been doing that. You can just go through these four laws and ask

yourself, how can I make the habit more obvious? How can I make it more attractive? How can I make it easier? How can I make it more satisfying? And the answers to those four questions will reveal different steps that you can take. They're naturally going to generate answers for things that you could do. They're kind of like levers. And when the levers are in the right positions, building habits is easier. And when they're in the wrong positions, building habits is harder.

Um, I want to see if this example maps to those four steps and it's related to making exercise stick. So, making it obvious, one of the things that I did that made a difference is laying my clothes out the night before so that when I wake up in the morning, I see the clothes and that's the cue. >> Yep. >> Uh-oh. I said I would exercise today. I make it attractive by saying I'm going to go somewhere outside my house like to a yoga studio or something. >> I think it's what you did earlier. What

didn't you say? You didn't like working out on your own, but you do like a class. Yes. >> So, it's it's choosing a version of that habit that is fun and attractive to you. A class is more attractive. >> The third one is I picked it the night before. >> So, now it's easy to know. I don't have to stop and think. I don't have to look at a schedule. I don't have to fit it in cuz I made it easy because I picked it the night before and satisfying. There's a coffee shop next door that makes a

great ice latte >> and I have it when >> that's when that's your reward for when you get done. >> Yes. >> So, yeah, I think it definitely maps and you can imagine lots of versions of this. I do think the obvious piece is often about knowing exactly when you're going to go or setting your clothes out the night before or having, you know, there's some kind of obvious element in your environment there. The attractive piece is usually choosing a version of exercise that you're really excited

about. The easy piece, I think, can often be about scaling it down. So, make it 10 minute or take 10 push-ups instead of the other one. >> Exactly. Rather than an hour, it can be for 10 minutes or whatever. It's, you know, scaling down the the scope of it. And if you can do more, great. Go ahead and do more. But you're what you consider a success is the smaller version. Um, and then the reward in the beginning, a lot of the time I think it looks like what you just described,

about. The easy piece, I think, can often be about scaling it down. So, make it 10 minute or take 10 push-ups instead of the other one. >> Exactly. Rather than an hour, it can be for 10 minutes or whatever. It's, you know, scaling down the the scope of it. And if you can do more, great. Go ahead and do more. But you're what you consider a success is the smaller version. Um, and then the reward in the beginning, a lot of the time I think it looks like what you just described,

which is it's the latte or it's the, you know, whatever the thing is. >> I actually crave it as I'm driving to the yoga studio. I'm not thinking about getting on the mat. I'm like, "Oo, I get a latte after." >> Sure. Which is great. Um, in the long run, sometimes takes a decade or more. It can become the reinforcement of the identity that you want to have. So, for me, I I work out now because I Yeah. I like the results everybody else wants, right? Like you want to look good and

stay fit and be able to move when you're 70 and you know all that stuff. Um, but I also do it because I like who I am when I'm doing it. >> Steven Presfield has this concept where he says, uh, he's talking about writing, but he says in the beginning you start creating and you feel kind of like an imposttor. You sit down to write. It's kind of hard. It's difficult. You don't really feel like you fit. Um, [snorts] but a wolf has its territory. And the way that it becomes its territory is by

walking it, by showing up every day, by being there. And it's not its territory the first day, but eventually after it's been there for a while, it starts to feel like home. And all of your habits are kind of like that, too. You know, the first day you go to the gym, you feel kind of stupid and foolish. You're like, are people, you know, looking at me? Am I doing this the wrong way? You feel out of place. You go for 6 months or a year, you start to get a little bit

more comfortable. maybe it still doesn't feel like home yet. Turn around 2 or 3 or 5 years later and you're like, "This is just part of what I do. This is my territory now." And the only way you develop that level of comfort is by being willing to go through a little bit of discomfort early on. You know, like sometimes I try to remind myself, am I willing to look foolish for 5 minutes or am I willing to be uncomfortable for five minutes? That's really all you're

more comfortable. maybe it still doesn't feel like home yet. Turn around 2 or 3 or 5 years later and you're like, "This is just part of what I do. This is my territory now." And the only way you develop that level of comfort is by being willing to go through a little bit of discomfort early on. You know, like sometimes I try to remind myself, am I willing to look foolish for 5 minutes or am I willing to be uncomfortable for five minutes? That's really all you're

talking about. My So I I've been working with a trainer recently and he told me this story. He was teaching a class in the morning and it was a bad weather day. There was it was just rainy and really gross. It was kind of cold and just gray. It was just kind of nasty. >> And he was supposed to have eight people in his class and he showed up and only two were there. And I we were talking about I I think that's kind of interesting, you know, because the workout's indoors, right? The workout

talking about. My So I I've been working with a trainer recently and he told me this story. He was teaching a class in the morning and it was a bad weather day. There was it was just rainy and really gross. It was kind of cold and just gray. It was just kind of nasty. >> And he was supposed to have eight people in his class and he showed up and only two were there. And I we were talking about I I think that's kind of interesting, you know, because the workout's indoors, right? The workout

once you get to the gym, the workout's the same as it always is. Um it's no different as is when it's sunny and the sky is blue. >> True. But what you really notice there is just how little bit of an edge you need to gain an advantage um or to to have a different outcome than most people. Six of those eight people didn't show up. Not because of the workout. The workout's the same as always. It's because they didn't want to be uncomfortable for like 5 or 10 minutes

getting ready, getting through the rain, getting in the car. It was just kind of gross enough that it let them ignore it. >> Yeah. Um, and so in a lot of ways, what this all boils down to is getting started. It's being, are you willing to get started? Are you willing to be uncomfortable for 3 minutes? And if you can get over that hump, then the rest of it kind of cascades naturally. >> You write about the two-minute rule. What is that? >> It's a really easy way to um force

yourself to get started. I hope that you find all the ideas interesting and useful that we talked about today. But if you can only remember one thing, the two-minute rule is a good thing to remember. And I say that because it can be applied to pretty much any habit. So you take whatever habit you're trying to build and you scale it down to something that takes 2 minutes or less to do. >> So meditation. >> Yeah. Meditate um meditate for 20 minutes becomes becomes meditate for one

minute. Uh read 30 books a year becomes read one page. do yoga four days a week becomes take out my yoga mat. And sometimes when I tell people this, they resist it a little bit. They're like, "Okay, buddy." You know, I know the real goal isn't just to take my yoga mat out. I know I'm actually trying to do the workout, you know? So, you're like, "Okay, if I know it's a trick, and why would I fall for it?" Basically, >> but there's this great quote from Ed Latimore where he says, "The heaviest

minute. Uh read 30 books a year becomes read one page. do yoga four days a week becomes take out my yoga mat. And sometimes when I tell people this, they resist it a little bit. They're like, "Okay, buddy." You know, I know the real goal isn't just to take my yoga mat out. I know I'm actually trying to do the workout, you know? So, you're like, "Okay, if I know it's a trick, and why would I fall for it?" Basically, >> but there's this great quote from Ed Latimore where he says, "The heaviest

weight at the gym is the front door." And man, there are a lot of things in life that are like that. You know, the hardest action is the first movement. The most difficult step is the first one. And once getting when you're in the work, once you've already started, it's often easier to keep going. Um, it's starting the work that is the hard part. All the friction is at the beginning. There's this concept in physics, coefficient of friction. The friction is highest when you're not moving. It's

once you're moving that things start to go a little bit easier. Momentum works in both ways. You know, like if you sit on the couch and you ruminate on, you know, how things aren't going well in your life, you feel kind of lethargic. Like that's easy to be low energy and for things to not go well right then. But you start moving a little bit. Even it's just stretch on the floor for 5 minutes. Now you start to move forward and things go, you know, go a little bit faster.

>> You know, speaking of friction, there's a concept that is floating around called habit stacking. What is that? >> Habit stacking. I think habit stacking is a great um approach for building habits. It's a concept that comes from BJ Fog. He's a professor at Stanford and he had a great insight which is [snorts] habits tend to be easier to build or stick to if they're tied to a behavior that you're already doing. So we all have habits that we already do. Okay? Like maybe you already make a cup of

coffee every morning. >> Yep. >> And your new habit that you want to build is you want to start meditating. So you can stack that new habit on top of the old one. So your habit stack could be something like after I make my morning cup of coffee, I will meditate for 60 seconds. And then you know you can start to chain this together. You could like create multiples. So you could say after I make my cup of coffee, I will meditate for 60 seconds. After I meditate for 60 seconds, I will write my

to-do list for the day. After I write my to-do list for the day, I will prioritize them and start working on the first one or whatever. And now you've got a little stack, a little package of behaviors that happens the same way every time. And you do it each morning. And uh from talking with a lot of readers, people like to use these at certain moments throughout their day. People like habit stacks in the morning. I have a lot of readers who they'll come up with one for what they do when they

get into the office. They'll be like, I go into the office, I hang up my jacket, I set my purse on the desk, I take my water bottle, and I fill it up. And then I sit down and I answer the first email. And I always do it in the same order. And that like helps me get into the day, and I just know exactly what I'm going to do when I get there. Um, sometimes you'll see people have one like a power down routine at the end of the day, uh, to kind of help them, you know, wrap the

day up and get ready for bed and whatever. So, you can use it anywhere. Um, I have some readers who have come up with very creative ones. I had one guy who was he was such a bro and really liked going to the gym and um, he was not managing his finances well and so his new habit stack was whenever I drink a protein shake, I will check my finances. Um, and it just it happened frequently enough that it would force him to check in on his budget and stay more on top of it. Um, so you can do you

can do strange ones like that. You have to be willing to experiment. >> Um, you know, I atomic habits I I've tried to lay everything out that I can like I wanted it I I don't know whether I reached or not but my objective when I was writing was I want to write the single best book that's ever been written about habits. But even so, even if in some magical world I achieve that outcome, you as an individual still have to be willing to experiment because what matters is does it work for your life,

you know? And so you got to maybe you need to rearrange the habit stack. Maybe you need to change when you're inserting things. You know, for one person, putting the uh meditating right after a cup of coffee makes a lot of sense. If you have three toddlers and you're trying to get pants on your four-year-old, that's not a good time to meditate, you know? So you need to find the right time of day to insert um your habits and behaviors and that requires a little bit of experimentation.

you know? And so you got to maybe you need to rearrange the habit stack. Maybe you need to change when you're inserting things. You know, for one person, putting the uh meditating right after a cup of coffee makes a lot of sense. If you have three toddlers and you're trying to get pants on your four-year-old, that's not a good time to meditate, you know? So you need to find the right time of day to insert um your habits and behaviors and that requires a little bit of experimentation.

>> So for somebody who has a a goal that's really big, whether it's I want to write a novel, I want to start a business, I want to take on a big project, and they're clear about that. What would you recommend is the one habit to build first since that's such a big goal out there? >> Interestingly, I would so I'd say there's probably two things to focus on first. The first is you probably need a habit of reflection and review. >> What does that mean? >> Well,

what are the odds that if you keep your head down and you work really hard that you're going to be working on the hard the highest and best thing? it's just so unlikely that out of all the things that you could be doing that you're working on the best thing right now. And so it it's this interesting tension because on the one hand having a great work ethic and working hard is really valuable in life. And um it does pay off in some sense like you can't get results without

working on things. [snorts] But it can also become a crutch where if you like for myself a lot of the time I I know for many years like if I had a problem my solution was I'll just work my way out of it. And uh that works for a little while, but at some point it breaks, you know, like you break yourself down and then also you can only work so much. Like you maybe if you really grinded you could work 10% harder than you are right now, but you can't work 100% harder or like 100x harder.

It's not possible. Yeah. >> Um but you could work on something else that gets you 100x the result if you're working on the right thing. Um and so for any project, you know, this hypothetical question that you asked is what if I have this big goal? I have a business I want to launch. I have, you know, an initiative I want to start. I have, you know, whatever. Um, there's going to be many ways to do it. And you need to have at least some time to sit and think each week and come back

to saying, are we doing this the right way? You know, if we I think if you if you have two things in life, if you have a bias toward action and you really move fast >> and you continually revisit this question of what are we really trying to do here and is this the best way to do it? If you can do those two things and you just keep doing them on repeat, you can really get a lot done in life. But but you need both. Um and so that that's the second thing I was going to mention

is uh this bias toward action. It's getting started. It's finding some small way to move. Now um my little saying that I try to remind myself of is don't rush but don't wait. >> You know, I find that if I am in the mix, if I'm taking action, if I'm working on things, then that's great. I need to be patient. I need to let the results accumulate. But if I'm not actually taking action, I'm not being patient. I'm just waiting and uh nothing's going to happen in that case.

So both thinking big picture, what are we really trying to do here? And is this the best way to accomplish it? And then having a bias toward action and moving fast. Those two things work really well together. >> Amazing advice. You know, one of the things you said at the very beginning is that the secret to winning is knowing how to lose. What do you do? And how do you pick yourself back up if you've had a little bit of a good streak and then you don't go to the gym or you don't write or you

start to drink again? Like those like how do you start the engine up again? And what's the mistake you see people making? >> So I try to keep this little mantra in mind which is never miss twice. And so you know maybe I show up and I you know do the right thing. I've been writing for six days in a row and then the seventh day I miss. Well, you know, I wish I hadn't missed, but that's okay. Let me pour all my energy into getting back on track the next day. And what you

realize is that at the end of the year, those mistakes are just like a little blip on the radar. But that's only true if you never miss twice. It's only true if you get back on track quickly. And I think you see this in many domains, which is the top performers have this interesting quality. They're all human. They all make mistakes like everybody else. But the thing that they share is they tend to get back on track quickly. >> And [snorts] if the reclaiming of a

habit is fast, the breaking of it doesn't matter that much. But it's it's all about getting back on track that matters. So it's again, it's this concept of bouncing back from a loss that um that is really critical. >> James Clear, what are your parting words? >> No matter what the habit is that you're trying to build, it's easy to talk yourself out of it because you know that the results aren't going to be good right away. But like your favorite athletes first workout was just as bad

as yours. You know, your favorite chef's first meal was just as bad as yours. Your favorite writer's first sentence was just as bad as yours. You need to keep going. You need to do the early low stakes stuff to prepare for the high stakes stuff to to build the capacity and the ability to do the other things. And so don't overlook the small moments that you have each day. you every day has an opportunity built into it. You know, whatever whatever age you are right now, your future self would love

as yours. You know, your favorite chef's first meal was just as bad as yours. Your favorite writer's first sentence was just as bad as yours. You need to keep going. You need to do the early low stakes stuff to prepare for the high stakes stuff to to build the capacity and the ability to do the other things. And so don't overlook the small moments that you have each day. you every day has an opportunity built into it. You know, whatever whatever age you are right now, your future self would love

to be it. When you're 70, you would give anything to go back and be 60 again and have the opportunity of those next 10 years. And you should use that as best as you can. And whether that's a small moment like a little dance recital or some stupid little speech that you're going to give to your friends or whatever it is, try to do it well. You know, whatever thing that you have in front of you, try to do it well. If you do it well, if you take advantage of the

moment that you have, you earn the right to do more things, you um prove to yourself that you have high standards and that you take advantage of the opportunities that are in front of you and you put yourself in a better position to gain more opportunities. We all have varying degrees of luck or circumstances or misfortune or whatever that come to us in life. a lot of things that we ask for and a lot of things that we don't ask for. But all you can do is try to use the moments that you have to

the best of your ability. And the better you do that, the better positioned you are to not only build good habits, but have a good life. >> James Clear, I I don't even have words. I am so proud of you. I am so grateful for the work that you do. >> Thank you so much, Mel. I appreciate it. It's great to have you as a fan and as a supporter of the work. And um yeah, I hope the audience loves it, too. >> I'm sure they will. And I also want to thank you for finding time and making

time to listen to this episode in particular and to share it with people that you care about. The amount of takeaways, the amount of just advice and tools that James just gave you, I want you to ask that question, who do I want to become? And then I want you to follow every single thing he told you because it will work. I'm going to keep listening to this. I'm going to share this with all three of my adult kids and our entire team. This is one of the best episodes we ever done. So, I'm

absolutely thrilled that you were here. And in case no one else tells you, I wanted to be sure to tell you as your friend that I love you and I believe in you and I believe in your ability to create a better life because James Clear just gave you the road map for how you [laughter] do it. So, go do it. And I'll be waiting to welcome you in to the very next episode the moment you hit play. I'll see you there. And thank you for watching all the way to the end here on

YouTube. I love that. I love that. And thank you, by the way, for hitting [music] subscribe. If it's lit up, it means you're not subscribed. Just take a second, hit that. It's free. It's a way that you can say, "Hey, thanks, Mel. Thanks for showing up here and doing your best to support me in creating a better life." And that way, by the way, if you're a subscriber, you're not going to miss a thing. Okay, we just dug into habits. So, you're probably thinking, Mel, what should I watch next? Oh,

YouTube. I love that. I love that. And thank you, by the way, for hitting [music] subscribe. If it's lit up, it means you're not subscribed. Just take a second, hit that. It's free. It's a way that you can say, "Hey, thanks, Mel. Thanks for showing up here and doing your best to support me in creating a better life." And that way, by the way, if you're a subscriber, you're not going to miss a thing. Okay, we just dug into habits. So, you're probably thinking, Mel, what should I watch next? Oh,

you're going to love this one. and I'll welcome you in the moment you hit [music] play.