The Skill of Self-Confidence | Roy Lee

So I know that you say okay all humans desires are driven by biological needs or whatever whatever right and you understand that like in history people are conditioned to seek the approval um

of their tribes like of society right like seek acceptance of society but if you're authentic self is unlikable by society how do you win and how do you

survive like if you are actually against society I mean tell me one person who you think was genuinely honest about their personality and just got flatout rejected by society because of uh posting online to like like give me a single example of someone you think has

ever done this.

Well, do you think you're not rejected by society?

Of course not. Are you kidding me? I

live in a [ __ ] $55,000 a month penthouse in the middle of Soho. I have

tens of millions of dollars to spend on building companies. I'm 22 years old in

building companies. I'm 22 years old in the most interesting time in human history and I get to spend all day programming and there's other [ __ ] that are in jail for holding one milligram of of [ __ ] weed in their car. I live one of the most interesting lives ever. And if I were to

design a Sims character that was meant to rule the world in his in his later age, what would I give him? I would make him young in the most interesting time in human history. I would make him extremely smart as I did myself. I would

teach him a bunch of hard lessons that would tell him, "Hey, here's exactly what to do. Here's exactly what not to do when hiring, starting a company, whatever, whatever, whatever." I'd make sure that he learns the lesson of taking risk very early on. And I'd make sure I give him the capital needed to start something big when he's when he's when

he's my age. So, that's exactly what I would do. I'm exactly well positioned to

would do. I'm exactly well positioned to win right now. And even if there's some [ __ ] online that disagree with my methods or my morals or whatever the [ __ ] like, I don't care. Objectively,

look at the position you're in. Look at

the position I'm in. And I'm doing much better than most series B, series C startups who are still [ __ ] unprofitable to this day, raising hundreds of millions of dollars. We're

good. And all it will take is one win for me to actually uh truly ascend to the top of the world. And the thing about me is that I will always be taking bets to make sure that I get that win one day. And nobody else will be taking

one day. And nobody else will be taking his bets because everyone else is [ __ ] and everyone else does know that risk is a good thing.

Who do you think is better than you?

Who's your age right now?

My age. Who is better than me? Nobody

like like not even my like beyond my age. There's not a single person I think

age. There's not a single person I think is more destined for this [ __ ] than me.

I'm obviously destined to be the greatest in the world. I was born for this. I was chosen by God to do this.

this. I was chosen by God to do this.

And I truly believe this with every fiber of my being.

Okay. Well, when did you believe this?

And you know, you say that you live one of the most interesting lives in the world. Like since when did you want

world. Like since when did you want this?

I think everybody has a few core desires that they share across all humanity. Um

I think everybody wants to make a lot of money. I think everybody wants to work

money. I think everybody wants to work on something fulfilling. I think

everybody wants to give gifts to their parents and have a nice group of friends that they can hang out with every day.

And this is exactly what I'm doing. And

the only reason I say my life is the most one of the most interesting lives in the world is because I think most people live very very boring stale lives. Most people will graduate college

lives. Most people will graduate college studying a degree that they don't care about. They'll go to a job for a company

about. They'll go to a job for a company that they also don't care about doing work that they don't care about and they will spend literally almost all of their waking hours doing this and in their free time maybe I'll go to Saturday on on Saturdays I'll go to a bar and I'll

talk to one woman and maybe I'll settle down find a wife after not having been successfully able to talk to any of the girls that I really wanted. So, I'll

settle down with some random wife, start a family, and be depressed. Most likely

scenario, you get divorced, and you're some at one point, you're some 50-year-old American man. You're

overweight, you're divorced, you have a job that you dislike, and you've never done anything meaningful with your life.

So, compared to these people, I think I live a very interesting life, but I don't think my life is that that amazingly interesting by any means. I

think that I have just pursued uh the things that I wanted. Some things that I wanted were I wanted to be surrounded by a lot of friends and I wanted to be working on something fulfilling with a lot of friends. I wanted a lot of money and I wanted to be able to go on a bunch of dates with a bunch of different girls

and hopefully meet my wife one day. And

I've done all these things because I uh was able to ignore the voice of society telling me this is wrong, you should not do this. And I was able to just do my

do this. And I was able to just do my own thing and uh as a result, you know, I I I I think I think I live a life that is fulfilling to me and most people don't.

Do you look down on people who live boring lives?

Um yeah, obviously like most of society.

Yes, of course I look down on most of society. I think most people have innate

society. I think most people have innate desires that they will spend their entire lives never fulfilling. If you

went your entire life and you're not fit, you were never fit once. You never

had six pack abs and you were you were never jacked at the gym. You don't have a single beach body picture. I know I I look down on you not because uh I objectively think that your life is terrible, which probably is, but it's because I look down on you because you

had a dream when you were young and you abandoned the dream. Nobody dreams at the age of 8 years old to be a fat 50-year-old. Nobody ever has this dream.

50-year-old. Nobody ever has this dream.

Everybody thinks in my future self, I'm going to look like [ __ ] Superman or Batman. And most people just don't ever

Batman. And most people just don't ever get there. And I think it is a uh

get there. And I think it is a uh disgrace to abandon the dreams of your childhood self because really that that that that that is the truth and I think most people do and I look down on dream

forsakers.

You you understand the importance of reputation in society but also seems like you have no care for your reputation. Like how do you view

reputation. Like how do you view reputation, high status, signal, prestige, like all these sorts of things, right? Cuz I think the one thing

things, right? Cuz I think the one thing that I've really struggled with is like what if your authentic self is low status? You know what I mean? Like

status? You know what I mean? Like

uh I feel like you're someone who's like very authentic. But what happens if your

very authentic. But what happens if your authentic self does not align with the zeitgeist of what is what society wants and what society will accept, you mean?

Cuz I know yeah, you've found people your life is much better than whatever Mackenzie [ __ ] you could have been doing. But you know what I mean? I don't

doing. But you know what I mean? I don't

know.

I'm very curious about this. Reputation

generally is something that is so abstract in the world of social media and I don't think people have actually realized this. It's very very hard for

realized this. It's very very hard for humans to calculate. You know it's it's it's actually quite simple for humans to calculate uh what in a group of 10 if we say something off then we have heightened most of us have heightened

social senses enough to determine oh I've said something that is socially unacceptable and now these 10 people are not going to like me. It's almost

impossible to make this calculation when it's 10 million people watching you and it's easiest to just not play the game.

So starting out, you know, like when you were a celebrity is just your personal life. The details are not going to be

life. The details are not going to be disclosed at all. You're just going to be this anonymous figure and the only character that they will see is the character that we present online. But I

think as social media develops and people grow more used to the algorithm, uh we're beginning to see more authentic personalities emerge as a result of uh an an enablement of different pockets of

culture. Cuz you know, back when there

culture. Cuz you know, back when there was only television, you know, you saw the person, everyone saw the same TV shows, you couldn't really pick the TV show that you wanted, but now everyone has a personal feed. And if I am a 24year-old disenfranchised white guy, I

can choose to turn on Nick Fuentes and watch him. Um, and as a result, I think

watch him. Um, and as a result, I think the deepest pockets and most interesting, highest engagement pockets that have emerged recently are people like Donald Trump. Extremely and and

Elon Musk and and and Nick Fuentes and extremely polarizing personalities that are uh characterized by high authenticity. And this is the reason why

authenticity. And this is the reason why I say reputation doesn't really matter because I say it does not matter in the same way that people think it did back a million years ago or like a couple hundred thousand years ago, your reputation mattered in that it mattered.

It really mattered what the hundred people most closest to you thought of you. Uh maybe 20 years ago, it mattered

you. Uh maybe 20 years ago, it mattered what the people on TV uh thought of you.

But now culture is not one single zeitgeist. It's definitely multiple

zeitgeist. It's definitely multiple different zeitgeists. And uh it's a

different zeitgeists. And uh it's a result of social media developing. And I

believe that if you are just authentic and true to yourself, you will find enough fans because of the high density of people on social media. Everyone's on

social media. If you're just truly authentic, then you will find enough people to like you and that audience may grow. eventually because uh people

grow. eventually because uh people really like to see authentic people.

Nobody likes to see um just a blankfaced anonymous company mascot. Everyone likes

to see a real person behind the scenes.

This is why Donald Trump was elected as president. He felt more authentic than

president. He felt more authentic than Clinton. And he was such a such a

Clinton. And he was such a such a different character. And we're going to

different character. And we're going to see a lot a lot more Donald Trump personalities. Even if you don't agree

personalities. Even if you don't agree with his policies, you're going to see a lot more people who are just characterized by very high authenticity.

That's what I mean when I say reputation doesn't matter. Um, and I just think you

doesn't matter. Um, and I just think you should aim to be authentic and you should not aim to to lie to yourself.

And I also disagree. Like I don't think there's a single personality out there that is not like socially acceptable.

Like you think Donald Trump is socially acceptable when he says grab her by the pee. Obviously not. But for some reason

pee. Obviously not. But for some reason he's, you know, he has the position of the most powerful [ __ ] person in the world. How how is he able to do this?

world. How how is he able to do this?

How is the world able to allowed to enable this despite his name being in the [ __ ] Epste files a million times?

How is he still allowed to be president?

It's because, you know, like I really think like, you know, a personality that the society doesn't accept. like I I I I I don't think this thing is real. So few

people are authentic and if if nothing else there will be people who support you just on the fact that you are authentic and yeah.

So you became really online about a year ago like your life completely like how do you feel about the trajectory of your life? Well obviously for the past few

life? Well obviously for the past few years it's changed so much but especially the last year how crazy does it feel that holy [ __ ] this is your life now? like this is your like one year ago

now? like this is your like one year ago you were a [ __ ] Columbia freshman.

Yeah. I think uh generally for humans emotions self-regulate and uh people get used to feelings over time and you know what what is that one study like like even people who get disabled after like

one year or something their emotions regulate back to baseline. Um I think for myself as well emotions have regulated back to baseline and the biggest difference is uh I just think like frameworks in my life my me mental

frameworks in life have changed primarily my mental reasoning around risk. Uh I I recently started sharing

risk. Uh I I recently started sharing the story but one of the biggest points of conflict for me starting out the the the hardest thing that I ever did starting out my company was uh debate with my co-founder on whether I should

even post on my LinkedIn about the tool interview coder at all. And we genuinely spent something like 8 to 12 hours in one session debating whether to post about this because we thought once we post about this there's no go there's no

going back. We might get kicked out of

going back. We might get kicked out of school. We might do all this [ __ ] And

school. We might do all this [ __ ] And it seems like in the grand world of risks that I've taken the smallest risk ever like really your your your your dilemma was making a LinkedIn post about a project. uh and yes that was the

a project. uh and yes that was the biggest dilemma because after that I realized uh some things in this world carry intense intense upside and some things in this world uh don't at all and you should aim to do the things that

have amazing upsides because uh the downside of taking one step back is really not bad and there actually exist things that can get you 10 steps forward um and I think that's that's the most market difference in mental

how scared were you to make that post because you know everyone keeps preaching oh we need to take more risk oh we need to take the unconventional path whatever whatever but I I think the

reality is that it's so [ __ ] hard in reality. Like the actual reality of

reality. Like the actual reality of taking risk. Oh, I'm actually not going

taking risk. Oh, I'm actually not going to go, you know, like not follow society. It's really really really

society. It's really really really scary. Like were you not like how how

scary. Like were you not like how how did you actually feel about that?

I mean, of course it was scary in the moment, but I think uh another thing I talk about is the fact that risk tolerance is sort of a muscle that you have to train. And I think my

whole life I've I've been a very polarizing figure. I've always been very

polarizing figure. I've always been very blunt and honest about my thoughts and my thoughts have always not been the most PC. So I've always had a large

most PC. So I've always had a large group of people who just didn't [ __ ] with the things that I was saying. But

as a result, I've always had a lot of very very close friends. And I think I learned from earlier on that some risks are good and I learn increasingly so as I live life that wow you should just

keep seeking out greater and greater risks because it's actually very rare that you attempt a risk and uh you put everything you have into it and things just get [ __ ] up like that almost never happens. It is almost always the

never happens. It is almost always the case that if you take a very big risk that nobody else is willing to take uh the world will reward you for it in some way or another. How has not caring about

other people hating you or being your authentic self and knowing that a lot of people are going to dislike you? Like,

how has that neg significantly negatively affected your life in any sort of way of like, oh, someone's not going to invest or like, oh, someone doesn't want to join or you know what I mean, where like there's

bridges you burn that you regret burning in some way.

I mean, uh, I I I live life almost with no regrets. Um, I think at any point I

no regrets. Um, I think at any point I understand that I tried to make the best decision I had, uh, the best decision I could make with the information that I've learned. Um, so I I I I I don't

I've learned. Um, so I I I I I don't regret anything. Certainly, everything

regret anything. Certainly, everything you're describing has happened as a result. Like, I'm probably not ever

result. Like, I'm probably not ever going to be able to get a job as a consultant ever again. I'm never going to be able to get a job as a regular software engineer ever again. But these

are bridges that I don't care about burning. And if you were just to ask me

burning. And if you were just to ask me and and I I think people get so caught up on um, oh, but I want to keep all my options open. And I think in reality,

options open. And I think in reality, you shouldn't try to keep all your options open. You should try to burn

options open. You should try to burn every other bridge except the one except your one plan A. And you should work your ass off to make the plan A happen.

Uh, which is what I did. And I'm still working on the plan A right now.

Okay. But what about bridges that really matter? Like for example, yeah, of

matter? Like for example, yeah, of course, like you don't [ __ ] care about any like Amazon, you know, internship or whatever, but what about like Okay, what about for example pissing off billionaires or something like that or pissing off powerful

people? You know what I mean? Like how

people? You know what I mean? Like how

do you kind of view now that like you know the game you used to play was like oh all these like [ __ ] [ __ ] college students like oh it's like you know you can see yourself as confidently better than them because yes your life

is objectively going to be better than the average prestige chasing college student or whatever but what about when you play like higher and higher games

like I don't know things kind of become more more real or like more scary in a sense like I don't even know if that makes sense.

Uh, I mean, yeah, this is why I sort of laughed when you suggested that, you know, when when when you made the sort of silly comment that you think Clo is risking your life because of course, yes, there's much greater risk when you are pissing off people at the higher

levels, like if someone wanted to, I'm sure they could try to find a hund00 million lawsuit to put against me and if they really if I really pissed them off that bad, they'd be happy to do it. But

again, this is where you have to think about, you know, the riskreward matrix here. And for me, I'm realizing that

here. And for me, I'm realizing that taking more risk is almost always better because the downside, like spending your whole life worried about a $100 million lawsuit coming from some anonymous billionaire is not going to get you very far instead of thinking like, damn, if

if you can actually get to the point of pissing off a billionaire, you've done something right and there's something interesting in what you're doing. And if

you can get to if you can just keep doubling down on that point, almost certainly there's always going to be light at the end of the tunnel. Um, if

you're competent and you can just keep moving, like it's very hard for death to hit a moving target. Um, and I think if you like most people never get to the point of being able to piss off a billionaire at all. And I think if you just spend your whole life worried about the negatives, then you're never going

to get anywhere. And instead worry about the upsides. Like, man, what if I what

the upsides. Like, man, what if I what did I do that's so interesting that a billionaire got pissed off or someone very very powerful got pissed off to the point where they might be willing to put half their personal uh savings into ruining my life. Like there must be

something that they're trying to get out of this. Uh, so there's there's like

of this. Uh, so there's there's like there's like upside in everything. And

as you play bigger games, like of course the risks are going to increase. But,

you know, Airbnb could have got shut down for breaking all the short-term rental property laws in all of San Francisco. Same thing could happen with

Francisco. Same thing could happen with Uber and the taxi cabs. And same thing could happen with OpenAI and taking all the copyrighted material online and training that using that as training data for AI. But if you want to get the biggest wins, you have to take the most risk and you just have to learn to be

okay with that.

What is your vision for Cluey in playing the highest most interesting game possible? Well, the next outcome that

possible? Well, the next outcome that I'm hoping is clearly to a bill. Um, you

know, billion dollar valuation, maybe $100 million revenue. That's like the the next big win that I'm seeking. And I

will take whatever risks I deem appropriate to get me to that goal. I

don't really live life looking for risks. I live life looking for outcomes.

risks. I live life looking for outcomes.

And if my rational mind can decide that there are risks that will get me closer to that outcome, then I will determine if it's appropriate to take that risk.

And I will heir on the side of saying yes. I will address one other thing,

yes. I will address one other thing, which is I don't actually blanket think that I'm better than other people. I

just think most people who give up on their dreams as a kid of not being a fat [ __ ] slob who has a job that he doesn't care about and a wife that he doesn't even love, I think that is pathetic. It is a pathetic way to live

pathetic. It is a pathetic way to live life. And I look down on them, but I

life. And I look down on them, but I don't blanket think that I'm better than anybody else. And my answer to this

anybody else. And my answer to this question right here is that yes, I uh I will take whatever risks are appropriate to get the outcomes that I'm hoping for.

Right now, the outcomes that are interesting to me are increasing the CLY revenue and, you know, getting us to a notable valuation.

One thing that I've learned from the past few months of, you know, working, being in the real world, being in Silicon Valley or whatever. It's just

that like you cannot do a company because you want to sit because you want to do a company, you know? You you

cannot win like that because being a founder is like people don't understand it's so [ __ ] hard. You know what I mean? Like it's really really it's it's

mean? Like it's really really it's it's like Yes, of course. Yeah. That's why 99 90% of startups fail because so many things have to go right. So many things can go wrong. Like what are some of the

things that you've learned over the past year where you know originally you were like oh I want to do something big you know I want to be a founder that sounds amazing yes Mark Zuckerberg Sam Alman Elon Musk whatever right but then the

reality hits you and you're like oh [ __ ] like it's really hard out here what are some of the things that you've like like real lessons you've learned over the past year of leaning people

I think this is uh another layered question and I think one of the interesting points here uh maybe I would actually push back on the fact that it is super hard to be a founder. It's one

of the easiest things ever to start up a company and start making some revenue.

Most people just haven't actually tried.

If every single person at Harvard, Stanford, MIT took a full semester off and try to build some sort of SAS software as a service uh subscription based software that they would try to sell online. I guarantee you over half

sell online. I guarantee you over half of them m maybe half maybe like one third, there's a meaningful percentage of them that would win. And it wouldn't even be that hard

win. And it wouldn't even be that hard because to start a company, I really don't think it just takes a lot of hard work and it takes like a lifelong vision. All it takes is a unique insight

vision. All it takes is a unique insight you have about the world that you are relatively convicted in having that conviction grow over time and gathering a team to realize that insight into the world. This is how every company started

world. This is how every company started and some companies really don't take a lot of a lot more work. It really is not just a function of the work that you put in. You know, like how is it how is it

in. You know, like how is it how is it ever possible that a new company in the same space is able is able to take over an incumbent like how how is anyone how's how's RAM able to gain so much market share when Visa already exists.

Visa Mastercard already exists. The

answer is because it doesn't actually take all that work. You know, like sure, you have to work hard, but it really just takes unique insights. And Ram's

unique insight maybe is that like, yo, like AI can transform business, corporate credit cards, whatever like like maybe like design matters, like whatever unique insights the founders had, they were able to materialize that into a much faster growing company than

the biggest companies out there right now with much less work. How is that possible? It's possible because being a

possible? It's possible because being a founder and having a successful company does not actually take the most amount of work. It just takes the most correct

of work. It just takes the most correct amount of insights and the correct amount of risks. Um, and so I don't think that it actually is a tremendous amount of work. And the next part of your question I think is much much more

layered, which is uh what are all the lessons that you've learned? And I I think this is like such a such a loaded question. Um, may may I'll talk about

question. Um, may may I'll talk about the lesson I've learned of being an influencer because I think I'm one of the the few founders out there who maintain as strong of a social presence as I do a uh an actual company. And the

lesson I've learned is that it's hard but very uh potential. It is it is high upside to make content. It is a superpower of the modern generation that you're able to wave a piece of metal in

your face and potentially get millions billions of people to see what you're doing. Um but it actually it it it takes

doing. Um but it actually it it it takes a lot of effort to uh make a lot of content. And I think the way you have to

content. And I think the way you have to structure a company is very different.

Your marketing team is not really just doing the traditional email SEO whatever [ __ ] marketing. most of your marketing efforts are going to be around content.

Uh because it just takes actually like a lot more work than people think to be an influencer and be a founder at the same time. Um and that's maybe one lesson

time. Um and that's maybe one lesson that I've learned which probably isn't that helpful to a lot of people.

Like what do people not expect from that?

Uh I think because uh you say it's a lot of work like actually what does it actually look like?

Um it's a lot of work to come up with an idea that will get a million views online. Um this is not something that

online. Um this is not something that happens every day. It's not like you can really just sit down for 30 minutes.

It's a much more creative endeavor than, you know, like getting out the 10,000 lines of code it needs to you you need to complete a product spec. Like um

there's some work that founders typically do that is a straight line.

You know, I just got to get the task done. And there's some work like for

done. And there's some work like for example come up with a launch video that really doesn't require a lot of work. It

just requires uh one page of the right work. And I think that's like um it's

work. And I think that's like um it's it's difficult. You can certainly uh

it's difficult. You can certainly uh crack away at it. Like certainly if you spent a full week thinking about uh what's a great video idea, you're going to come up with one idea, but it's also

possible that you could just wake up to one idea in one day. So um in that way it's hard. Editing is actually hard.

it's hard. Editing is actually hard.

Filming is actually uh pretty tricky if you want to do chopped.

Yeah. But it's fine. as a result of social media being so much more publicly visible than than product, you know, like you can get 14 videos out in a day, you can't get 14 product updates out in

a day really meaningfully. So, uh

there's a lot of people that think that I spent all my time doing influencing or whatever the [ __ ] but I really spend half a day a week doing this content thing and all my other time is spent on product.

So, what are the biggest lessons you've learned as a leader, as a founder, not on the not on the influencing side, but as on the on the building side? on the

building side of hiring because okay, what is what does a CEO need to be good at? You need to be good at fundraising and recruiting and vision.

That's what's most important. What are

some of the lessons you've learned?

I feel like people say that [ __ ] all the time. Um, and I really think that only

time. Um, and I really think that only matters for maybe 500 people in the world. In reality, the lesson that most

world. In reality, the lesson that most people need to hear is you've never built anything. You've never gone all in

built anything. You've never gone all in on anything in your life ever. and

you've never spent more than two weeks building out a project that is of any any substance. You've never tried to

any substance. You've never tried to materialize a real bet. You've never put all your chips into one basket ever. Uh

so you should just focus on doing that because if you don't have that, you're never going to have the insight needed to have a convicted vision in what the future will look like. You're never

going to have the competency to build a real team. Uh you're never going to have

real team. Uh you're never going to have anything to fund raise off because you don't have [ __ ] two week a twoe project that you've ever worked on. Uh

you're not going to have anything. And

the first step for everybody, the biggest lesson I've learned is just start. Uh cuz most like even if you hear

start. Uh cuz most like even if you hear this lesson like these [ __ ] are not going to start. People don't want to start. Most people are lazy and they're

start. Most people are lazy and they're getting lazier every day.

I feel like also in order to actually take risk, you don't have a [ __ ] ton of money first. Like I'm not and I don't

money first. Like I'm not and I don't know. I I just feel like right because

know. I I just feel like right because in SF so many of my friends are dropouts right and and there's a real difference between my friends who you know their dad their parents are loaded you know yeah you can like drop out or whatever

or you know I have a lot of friends who you know they already first is kind of like my story where I spent some time first chasing how to trying to figure out how to make a bunch of money first and then after you get that you're like

okay now what can I actually do that is real and that is not [ __ ] right um but there's just but then you know then there's other people who are like oh my god They were actually they were in the

[ __ ] boonies, right? And they

actually took risk when they could not afford to take risk. You know, they they cannot afford their parents are [ __ ] poor or whatever and they still take risks to do something selfish to try and chase what they actually want to do.

Like there's a real kind of difference I I think from like the privilege you were born into or like the background that you have. Like do you have any thoughts

you have. Like do you have any thoughts on that? But that that is something that

on that? But that that is something that I kind of realized where like wow it's so much easier to take risk like you know if you're like fin if you're fine financially right?

Yeah. Yeah.

Um, yeah. I mean, I I certainly agree. I

think everyone has their own bag of [ __ ] I didn't really come from a super rich background. My parents immigrated

rich background. My parents immigrated to America when I was three. And for a while, we had no money. My dad failed a bunch of different businesses. And for a time, our family only had $400 to our

name and that's it. And siblings?

I do. I have an older brother. He's in

dental school right now. Um, and it wasn't until my mom started an SAT tutoring academy. Well, here's here's

tutoring academy. Well, here's here's exactly like right now my family makes money through SAT tutoring. The way it started was because my mom valued my education a lot and she wanted me to get private tutoring. When I was younger, we

private tutoring. When I was younger, we didn't have the money to afford it. So,

what she did was she talked to all the local Korean kids and Korean kids moms in the area and said, "Hey, would you guys like to do group lessons so that we can get a discounted rate for private tutoring?" So, I grew up doing group

tutoring?" So, I grew up doing group lessons with like eight kids and we'd all pay like 5 to 10 bucks an hour each, which is actually affordable for my family. Uh, and that's how I was able to

family. Uh, and that's how I was able to get private tutoring. This grew and grew and became an SAT tutoring prep academy, which uh my mom and I really just built together when I was young. And that's

the main source of my family income.

Taught me a lot of valuable lessons about entrepreneurship and taking risk and how to start companies. Either way,

my dad didn't even graduate high school and my parents are not super they're not the most educated in the world. They're

not the and and for a while I was poor and for a while my family made upper middle class money. So, uh everyone has their own bag of [ __ ] It is an unfortunate reality of the world that meritocracy is not always exactly equal.

And there is an astonishing amount of successful founders who came from private schools and and and top schools and their parents were researchers and whatever the [ __ ] but you know, like like what are you going to do? Sit

around and [ __ ] around all day or actually go try and do something meaningful with your life. Uh I think even if the conclusion is, yeah, the world's super privileged and it's super unfair against you and you're [ __ ] and your chances are 10 times lower than uh some other [ __ ] who was born

with rich parents. Like what are you going to do? You're not going to try now. You're going to spend the rest of

now. You're going to spend the rest of your life as an accountant now. you

might as well go for the big win because you know like really at the end of the day it's not strictly correlative. It's

not like the the person with the most money always gets always gets the big win. It still does take a lot of insight

win. It still does take a lot of insight and everyone has a chance. Um even if the playing field is not equal and and it really never is going to be equal.

You know when I when I make a lot of money and I have kids, I'm going to make sure this [ __ ] gets the best education and he's going to be taught by me personally and I'm going to teach him [ __ ] that no one else is teaching. So

yeah, my kid's going to be goated and uh it's not going to be fair for the other people. But you know, that's just how

people. But you know, that's just how the world works. You can either sit around and [ __ ] about it or you can try and make your own win your own way. So,

so back when you know like Okay, so yeah, everyone knows the story. My mom

ran SAT.

Sure.

Tutoring, you know, then I got kicked out like resended from Harvard, whatever, whatever. Like cuz you had

whatever, whatever. Like cuz you had that one year where you were just applying to schools again and then you got completely rejected the second time and then you had that the second year of

just doing community college. during

that first year between um like getting resented from Harvard and then applying for college apps again and then not getting into any of them like how did that actually feel cuz I feel like that's probably like the low like but

that's probably like the lowest in your life ever like how did that you know what I mean and I I know you mentioned it was super super lonely before like

it is very real loneliness it [ __ ] drives you insane. Um, so in high school I was very social. I was a very social kid. Uh, I'd go out all the time,

kid. Uh, I'd go out all the time, especially in my second semester of my senior year after I'd already gotten into Harvard. I pretty much just party

into Harvard. I pretty much just party all day um and just hung out with friends. I was always very extroverted.

friends. I was always very extroverted.

And what state are you from again?

Georgia.

Okay. So like nowhere.

Uh, sort of. Yeah. I mean I I was there there's like a pocket in Georgia called Duth. It's like a Korea town and there's

Duth. It's like a Korea town and there's a lot of Asian people there. So I was always around Asian people. I was pretty social. I partied a lot. I spent a lot

social. I partied a lot. I spent a lot of money and I had a little girlfriend at the time. So, I I I I had a pretty great fun life my senior year. Out of

180 days in school, actually, I had 43 absences. So, I barely went to school

absences. So, I barely went to school cuz I was just digging around. And then

all of that, you know, like I was top of my class, perfect SAT score going to Harvard. Uh, and I thought I had I had a

Harvard. Uh, and I thought I had I had a great life going for me. And then all of a sudden, you know, it just got taken away. Um, and I think that was like a

away. Um, and I think that was like a very very impactful moment for my life because mentally, you know, uh, it it really is so helpful to experience a

true low, to have everything that you once value taken from you cuz, you know, you have to find new value in other things and you have to pride yourself in other things.

How did your parents and the people around you react to that? Cuz, you know, it's probably super public.

Uh, at the time, no. Like, we just kept it quiet. It was just a family matter

it quiet. It was just a family matter and my parents were just as concerned and shocked as I was. They largely just uh left me alone. They didn't want to um they were they were really really good to me, very nice and they didn't

actually like make make too big a deal out of it cuz what's screaming going to do at this point? You said, "All right, this is a terrible tragedy that's happened. Let's just move on and think

happened. Let's just move on and think about the next step."

How did you feel about yourself?

Well, at first when I started, you know, I actually took it very optimistically like I thought this was just going to be like a training arc for me. I'm going to I'm going to do one year in the goolog and then I'm going to end up at another top school because you know did you not hate yourself?

Hate myself for what?

I don't know. Doing [ __ ] that would get you rescended when you were destined like you were destined for greatness and then you did some stupid [ __ ] probably and then it's like oh [ __ ]

Well, I I maintained my belief that I was destined for greatness. Like at no point in this entire thing did I ever bulk at my own, you know, like destiny did I did I ever not think that I was

going to make it. Uh, and I just I placed a lot of value internally on going to Harvard, but at the same time, like it's like it's not like I didn't get in. And it's also not the case that,

get in. And it's also not the case that, you know, like everyone at Harvard has like a perfectly clean, perfectly honest application. Most people lie. Most

application. Most people lie. Most

people fraud about things. So, it really is not like some sort of intense guilt that I feel like if everyone had their applications intensely combed through.

[ __ ] 90% of the [ __ ] however, wouldn't be going there anyway.

So, it's not like I felt guilt. Uh,

I just thought, you know, this is a a sad thing that has happened to me, but it will make for a great chapter in the biography of Roy, which it does now later when I do make it. And so, the first few months I spent, I really just

programmed every single day. I learned

how to program at that time. I taught

myself how to code. I coded a bunch of different side projects. Um, and at one point, you know, maybe like four or five months in in December of 2022, I just hit this wall. Uh, I hadn't talked to

anybody outside my family in like three months and the loneliness kind of hit in and I got tired of even scrolling. So, I

would just like wake up. I would just wake up, look at the ceiling of my roof and just have almost no thoughts for the entire day, go right back to bed and, you know, I think I spent probably 5

months in a sort of uh conscious comeos state is how I would describe it.

5 months.

Yeah, probably.

That's a really long time.

Uh, yeah, I mean, yeah, it is. It was it was a long time.

Uh and after that, you know, I think I think one of the But like like the the the entire time I knew, you know, like I'm I'm I'm I'm gonna make it some way or another. Um

or another. Um how did you know though? Like cuz you say, "Oh, you know, when you got rescended, I always knew I was destined for greatness. I like since when like

for greatness. I like since when like when you were three or something when you were eight like and do you think that came from, you know, cuz in high school you whatever perfect SAT score, whatever, top of your class. Do you

think it came from always winning when you were younger? Like do you think you were were you always a winner when you were younger?

I mean not obviously not always but I genuinely I generally think that most things in life are trainable and most things in life do get trained and your risk tolerance is something that gets trained from you taking a lot of small

risks early that snowball into bigger and bigger risks that you're willing to take later. And at this point, you know,

take later. And at this point, you know, Mark Zuckerberg is willing to bet $70 billion dollars on the metaverse, and I'm willing to bet my entire college education on something because I've learned, just as he has probably learned in the past, the lesson that taking risks is good. And I think the same is

true for ego. Uh it is really in your best incentive if you want to start a company to grow your ego as much as possible. Cuz I say this all the time

possible. Cuz I say this all the time when you're down in the trenches and you're out of money and your employees all left and your [ __ ] is not working.

Like the only thing that is going to keep you grinding through the goolog is your ego. So it is really in your best

your ego. So it is really in your best incentive to be the cockest [ __ ] ever. And the way to grow that and the

ever. And the way to grow that and the way that I grew mine is by consistently winning when I was younger. I was always a smarter kid. I always did well in school. Um, and it was just surprising

school. Um, and it was just surprising to me how I could do so much better than other people uh without the same amount of studying.

So, how did the Harvard stuff not humble you? Because like for example, I

you? Because like for example, I remember I remember I had this phase when so I was like an basically for like quick context I was an NPC most of my

life and then basically in 2023 um I just like met some people who lived the most insane lives. I could never even wrap my heads around my head around and then I I just feel like I I started gaining consciousness and then became

super existential whatever you know like completely like shape my life trajectory instead of like being linear. I

completely shaped my life life trajectory. So it' be exponential and

trajectory. So it' be exponential and then I was like and I was like [ __ ] working crypto, making money, whatever.

And then I was I remember I had a massive ego. I thought I was better than

massive ego. I thought I was better than everyone genuinely. And that like that

everyone genuinely. And that like that amount of ego is what caused allowed me to first start posting on social media.

I think when I was a sophomore uh because I was just like I don't [ __ ] care what all these like retards from my high school think of me because I am literally better than them. I am l I'm traveling. I'm making money. Whatever.

traveling. I'm making money. Whatever.

But then I I did this for a little bit and then after a month in I just remember I met someone who was like she was just better than me in every single way possible. All my dreams and

way possible. All my dreams and aspirations I had she had achieved so easily in the past and I don't even know I just think from that I just was like oh I just got super humbled and I was like wow I am not the [ __ ] And I think

from then it was just very it was very much just like like I am not the [ __ ] And I maybe a lot of my struggle the past few months has been because I don't have a high ego. But I don't really know like have you have have you just like

have you never ever been humbled? Like

how can you not be humbled? Like how are you not only like how are you so shameless but you know like yes you can say have a big ego, have a big ego

whatever but like actually how do you do this? It is kind of insane. I think

this? It is kind of insane. I think

that's a great question and I think the answer is that I don't have an I actually don't have an ego in the things that people expect me to have an ego in.

I don't think I'm smarter than anybody else. I don't think I'm more creative. I

else. I don't think I'm more creative. I

don't think I'm smarter than everybody else. I don't think I'm the most

else. I don't think I'm the most creative person. I don't think I'm the

creative person. I don't think I'm the most artistic person. I don't think I'm the best writer. I don't think I'm the best reader. What I do have ego in is I

best reader. What I do have ego in is I have ego in my ability to get things done. Um, and I have an intense amount

done. Um, and I have an intense amount of ego in my ability to not give up on things. And I have an intense amount of

things. And I have an intense amount of ego in my ability to uh, you know, like finish a project that others won't. Um,

and this is the ego that I'm talking about. Your ego is is in your ability to

about. Your ego is is in your ability to win, not in your actual individual skill sets. And uh, if I had an ego about

sets. And uh, if I had an ego about getting into Harvard or like being a Harvard student, well, I like that's not the ego that I'm talking about. That's

not the ego that I had. Sure, maybe I was humbled like I didn't go to Harvard.

I wasn't a Harvard student anymore.

That's not where my ego was. Like my ego came from the fact that I usually won in life. And evidence of me winning in life

life. And evidence of me winning in life usually is that I got into Harvard in the first place. And, you know, like it didn't really affect me that much that I got recented to Harvard. I think it's important to have your ego not be tied

well as much as you possibly can try not to tie your ego to accomplishments and you know like strive [ __ ] in the real world. Have your ego more closely

real world. Have your ego more closely uh tied to you know like internal victories. Uh it's it's hard to do and

victories. Uh it's it's hard to do and it's usually external accomplishments that build your ego that you even know were difficult in the first place. Like

the only reason you know an accomplishment is difficult or prestigious in the first place is because of some external measure of reward. Uh but generally if you can tie

reward. Uh but generally if you can tie your ego to an internal feeling of uh being able to get things done then I think that will take you a lot farther and when I say grow your ego that's the ego that I'm talking about growing and it's because I'm talking about that ego

that I didn't actually get humbled that much when I got rescended from Harvard because you know the ego was never in that I was a Harvard student the ego was in that I'm someone who can get [ __ ] done.

Mhm. So going back to like you said you were 5 months you were fading in and out of consciousness. What like snapped you

of consciousness. What like snapped you out of that?

I wasn't fading in and out of consciousness. I was I was just in a

consciousness. I was I was just in a state of conscious coma is is how I would describe it. And what I mean by that is I don't really remember exactly dayto-day what happened. There were not events I couldn't tell you the difference between March of that month

and like May of that month. Uh because I was, you know, it just kind of felt like every day was the same. The thing that snapped me out of it and the thing that got me into it in the first place was cuz like the whole time I was just waiting for college decisions to roll back around. And I just thought, you

back around. And I just thought, you know, like I I I didn't have the open-mindedness at the time to think like, you know what, maybe just [ __ ] this college thing entirely. I'm just

going to really really make a very meaningful swing at something different.

And this is also another reason why I advocate for not trying to have plan B's because that plan B at the time was a thing that massively held me back if I just [ __ ] off and try to build my own try to build my own company. I was

definitely competent enough then to do what I'm doing right now. So I would have gotten here a few years quick a few years more quickly. But because I knew, you know, like if I just wait four more months like I'll have a decision for college. uh it just ended up in me being

college. uh it just ended up in me being lethargic and just waiting on the plan B option instead of being forced to make it which I think most people need to need to be. Um and that's the reason I was in conscious coma and that's also

the thing that took me out of conscious coma cuz April May when decisions did roll around and I didn't get anywhere I realized like oh [ __ ] I need to take another big swing.

And how did that feel? Like I think that is like kind of insane. Like how did that feel? You're you spent a whole year

that feel? You're you spent a whole year waiting and it's like oh it's like again I thought it was kind of insane. Uh,

like was that not insane?

Yeah, I mean I I mean I guess I I guess the second time around Well, I I I didn't really feel it as bad, you know, like like like the second time you do something always takes less and takes less out of you both emotionally and, you know, like like as a sense of time.

So, it didn't really feel as bad as the first time. Um, I just thought like,

first time. Um, I just thought like, damn, happened again. Well, I obviously can't do what I just did, so let me think of another way out. And honestly,

like, uh, there's a lot of cope that I did, but there's a lot of like real reasons, too, where it's like, you know what? I'm still like I'm still 18, 19,

what? I'm still like I'm still 18, 19, like I'm good. I can just figure this out. Even if I have to take another year

out. Even if I have to take another year off, like it's whatever. Like I'll go to Berkeley later. Like there there's there

Berkeley later. Like there there's there there's another school. I start a company in San Francisco. There's always

another out. And um I was honestly just more glad than anything to be finally given an answer um that I didn't need at the time, but I thought I needed uh to as to, you know, like what's the next

step going to be? So it really didn't hurt as bad as the first time. It just,

you know, like [ __ ] it, it's time for me to do something with my life. So, um,

spurred me into action.

And I know that you said that like when you were in community college, you say, "Oh, the people here are so much more interesting than all the people you met at Colombia where where like I remember

this too, right? Cuz like

I'm probably going to cut this out, but just like at these schools, it's just like everyone's really [ __ ] boring at Cuz I I went to UCLA for like a little bit. I didn't really make any friends

bit. I didn't really make any friends cuz I was just like I was just everyone's like very very boring. I

don't know. Everyone's Everyone's like the same. Everyone's like hive minded.

the same. Everyone's like hive minded.

Everyone's the same. Everyone's super

boring. Like I don't know. There just

like not many people. There's not many people who want to live interesting lives or like who seek interesting lives sort of. So I guess like kind of what is

sort of. So I guess like kind of what is like something that you haven't said before that the year you were doing community college in California that taught you a lot that was like most

interesting to you? Um, I guess my time at community college is sandwiched between uh two separate times in my life. When I was in high school, I hung

life. When I was in high school, I hung out with the Strive uh take 15 APs, never get below a 1560 and Ivy League or bust uh sort of Asian kids. And um they were actually very similar to the

Colombia kids kids that I met at Colombia which were just those kids plus a few years uh except instead of SAT and number of AP classes it's how prestigious is your internship and uh what how many credits are you taking the

semester. Uh so in that way I felt like

semester. Uh so in that way I felt like these were almost the same exact people but sandwiched in between them was my time at community college. And this is when I think I was face to face with the

diversity of uh the nonacademic elite.

And it sounds corny when I say academic elite, but that really is how it is. You

know, like these people who are born into academia and spend their whole lives in academia getting masters and PhDs, like these people are just like they make it to the top of academics and they sort of are part of the same, you

know, like like largely one and the same. Um, but a community college

same. Um, but a community college really, these are not the people doing that [ __ ] These are like some [ __ ] estoners, a lot of people who don't actually value education that much. a lot of people who are really just trying to make their own

way in the world because nobody really goes to community college thinking like this is the way that I'm going to make my fortune. I value education so much so

my fortune. I value education so much so I'm going to go here. Like it's it's some sort of agentic thinking that they took that got them there. Whether it's I want to save money because I'm being more forward thinking about my future.

I'm going to risk some status now so I can save money and and and and be more financially independent in the future.

There's a lot of people there that just want to [ __ ] off school. I'm only here cuz my mom told me to. But in reality, I want to be a professional skateboarder.

I want to be a [ __ ] tattoo artist.

Uh, and there's just a lot of people exploring other career paths. Uh, and I think the problem with um the Asian good at studying, go to top school type is is that it really feels like your

options are limited. Um, it feels like your options are doctor, lawyer, engineer or um I like like largely just [ __ ] doctor, lawyer, engineer. It

really feels like you grow up, there's only these options and then you go to school or or like consultants or finance person and you go to school and these are the only options and this is the one time where there there are people who

are doing all sorts of things. Um and I think that really brought in my view on uh life is more than just being a doctor, lawyer or engineer or finance consultant. Um and I think it was that

consultant. Um and I think it was that was largely the reason why I was so comfortable leaving school because I knew worst case I can just go back with my boy Jake and be a tattoo artist with him in San Francisco. when you were, you

know, whatever, you had like your first semester at Columbia, whatever, college experience, whatever. Um, and then like

experience, whatever. Um, and then like last year on this time, right, you were doing interview coder, like everyone knows the story. Um,

what was it? You know, you mentioned earlier that you were debating for like 8 12 hours, should we post interview coder on LinkedIn?

What was it during that time last year?

What was it that you really, really, really wanted in your life? like how you wanted to like how did you want to because you probably never would have expected your life turn out to turn out

the way that it has and were you like I really want to meaningfully alter my life trajectory at the time or there is something that you want so so so

desperate cuz yeah you mentioned oh yeah when I first got to Columbia I want to find co-founder asked everyone yeah yeah yeah you know um like I guess yeah kind

of to question just what did you really really really really want back then. And

yeah, cuz I was thinking about this today where I was like, "Holy holy fuck." Like literally the life I have

fuck." Like literally the life I have today is just like the life that I used to pray for, you know, a year ago where I was super [ __ ] bored every day and now it's just like, "Holy [ __ ] every day is is crazy. Everyday's madness.

Every day is just unbelievable." You

know what I mean?

There's a screenshot floating around on Neil's old Twitter or Neil's Twitter right now of uh our priorities in life.

At the time when I was debating whether to build or whether to launch interview code or not, the number one thing that I wanted was I wanted all the people to recognize uh the person that my ego thought I was and I wanted to be

acknowledged for it because at the time I took what now two years out of school.

I came from community college to Colombia as a transfer. I was like a 20 21-year-old sophomore. So I was on the

21-year-old sophomore. So I was on the older side. Um and nobody thought that I

older side. Um and nobody thought that I was very impressive or competent. uh you

know like a bunch of people like already like in my after my first week after pre-orientation like I already had 50 people thinking that I was weird for asking them to be my co-founder just uh just some random Strive kid and I have this massive massive chip on my shoulder

like man like you know like I got kicked out of Harvard I spent all this time and people think that I'm just some [ __ ] chum dumpster but no it's not the case you know I'm uh I'm I'm the goat and I

had I had I have and I have this image of me in my head and you know like I thought the world had tried hard to uh dissuade others from thinking that way.

Um, but you know, I'm very very convinced of my own ego. And the thing that I wanted more than anyone anything else was for other people to see the person that I thought I was in my head and still think I am.

And the person that you think in your head is that you're the goat, the generational goat of all humankind.

Yes.

So, I think, you know, one thing that I Okay, I'm going to try to describe this cuz this is this is like a problem I've been thinking out for a while is that I'm going to go off side. This is might be

related, but I think it's like it's hard when you're creating things because when you create something, when you create anything, when you are truly yourself, like okay, every single human being,

they're striving towards the highest truest expression of themselves, right?

Um, and it's like you you have to ignore the noise. You have to ignore what

the noise. You have to ignore what society thinks. You have to not care

society thinks. You have to not care about what other people think in order to like put yourself out there. In order

to like do the in order to do things that are very true to you, but also at the end of the day still in order to win, you still need acceptance by other people. You still need the acceptance of

people. You still need the acceptance of society. You know, like all artists,

society. You know, like all artists, right, they create, you know, whatever Kanye West, he creates things that that are controversial that no one has ever seen before. But it's like it's still he

seen before. But it's like it's still he still only wins because people love him.

Because society accepts you. I think

that one thing that is really hard I found is like, and I don't know if you've ever like experienced this before. I don't know if like most people experience this, but I

think it's really hard when I think it's so scary to put your true self out there into the void and to not hear anything back. Like to have nothing come back. I don't know if that makes

come back. I don't know if that makes sense. First of all, I disagree with the

sense. First of all, I disagree with the premise that you need to be accepted by society in order to win. In fact, I think the example you gave is the perfect counter example of Kanye West who just spent the last what [ __ ] 10

years on the worst anti-semitic tirade rage uh of his life and now he's 50 years old doing the most amazing concert ever with a crowd packed of [ __ ] 50,000 18-year-olds screaming his name.

Um, so obviously you can be the most anti-Semitic, racist, uh, non-s society accepted crash [ __ ] in the world and you can still win as long as you just you win, you know? And, um, I I I don't think you need to be accepted by

society. I really think just [ __ ] the

society. I really think just [ __ ] the haters. Like, if you want to go on your

haters. Like, if you want to go on your [ __ ] anti-Semitic like rage in in rage tyrate on Twitter like Kanye West, go do that. As long as you can still do something great, then you will just win.

Um, winning is really not that complicated. You don't need to be loved

complicated. You don't need to be loved by everybody. In fact, I would say every

by everybody. In fact, I would say every single person in the world who has won big is not loved by people. They're not

loved by all people. Kim Jong-un is certainly not loved by everybody in the world. Uh, [ __ ] Vladimir Putin is

world. Uh, [ __ ] Vladimir Putin is certainly not loved by everyone in the world. Neither is Donald Trump. Neither

world. Neither is Donald Trump. Neither

is Elon Musk. In fact, all the powerful, all the most successful people in the world are pretty unanimously not accepted by society. And if any of them walked into a random diner, they'd probably get [ __ ] milkshakes thrown on their head. So, I completely disagree with the premise that you need to be

accepted by society or that you need to in any way seek the approval of society.

You said you want other people to recognize that you're the goat. So, how

does that balance? Well, I think people recognize that Kanye West is a great musician and a the goat musician without recognizing while also not rejecting not not accepting him as a member of society and thinking like, yeah, you I do not

want my kid to grow up like Kanye West.

I think this guy is an anti-semitic psycho. Uh but at the same time, he's

psycho. Uh but at the same time, he's the goat of all music and you know, you can't disrespect on on on the work. Um

and this is exactly why I think like like I just disagree with the premise.

You don't have to be accepted by society to do something great. You just need to do something great. So for me to prove to people that I am great, I just need to do something great even if all of society rejects me. So, yes, [ __ ] the haters. Even if every single person in

haters. Even if every single person in the world is a hater, it doesn't [ __ ] matter as long as you do something great.

What are you trying to do? That's great.

Uh, well, when I started it was interview coder. I didn't really know

interview coder. I didn't really know what interview coder was going to be, but I knew that it was the start of something different. And to this day,

something different. And to this day, you know, like it hasn't even been a year since I launched uh my company. So,

I'm still year one uh and relatively conict convinced of my ability to execute on a generational company in this very interesting time. I'm young

enough. I'm competent enough. I'm

intelligent enough. Uh, and I know that I am the goat. So, of course, I'm going to figure something out that will be a generational outcome.

What is top of mind for you? Like exact

what is like exactly top of mind for you? Is it like like hiring, you know?

you? Is it like like hiring, you know?

Is it like um vision? cuz

vision? cuz yeah I mean I mean it's it's product right now like there's a there's a very uh unique bet that we're making right now um that I think I'm only able to

have insight on because of all my experience with Culie and interview coder uh and right now I don't actually think you need a very big team in fact teams are getting leaner people are getting laid off and you don't need that

many people to maintain a very dense product as a result of AI so I don't really I'm not super interested in hiring more people I'm not super interested in increasing the operational overhead or anything else. I'm really

just interested in, you know, like testing these experiments uh on product.

How has it felt like to see people leave and go in your life over the past year kind of from, you know, with like, oh, there's hype,

oh then there's no hype, oh then there's hype, then there's no hype. How does it feel to see people come and go in your life throughout the past year? Uh yeah,

I mean um a lot of departures are just like couldn't handle it, you know, like early stage startup, it obviously comes with some volatility and everyone's got their

own bag of [ __ ] There's startups that don't generate revenue for four years and the employees are supposed to muck through that. Uh in fact, there's

through that. Uh in fact, there's startups that don't generate revenue until they [ __ ] IPO and there's people that have to muck through that and everyone's got their own bag of [ __ ] And you know from the start we were revenue generating seven figures

when everyone every single person joined. So um um I think it's just uh we

joined. So um um I think it's just uh we had a very unique bag of [ __ ] which is a public persona that is very volatile and up in the air. Um and I think they're just not able to deal with that bag of [ __ ] You know like I I I have no no

hate in my heart at all. I think like startups are very hard and there's a lot of churn in employees everywhere. It's a

lot more visible with us certainly um because we're just so uh like in no other company would a resignation or a departure get 100,000 views on Twitter but of course for us it does

and XAI.

Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Like like us us and some of the labs but I mean um early stage startups are just that way and I it doesn't really feel like it

just feels like guess you couldn't deal with it. Oh well, I'll figure it out on

with it. Oh well, I'll figure it out on my own. Wait, there's this tweet. I

my own. Wait, there's this tweet. I

remember seeing you tweet out back in July last year. I think I kind of forgot the exact words, but it was something like, "Oh, if I lose, I'm forgotten and despised. If I win,

despised. If I win, yeah, I'll be with the goat or whatever."

Like, what was going on in your mind throughout that time? How do you feel about you know because you also mentioned like you know you're one of the people who's doing like you're one

of the most public facing people who you know you're trying to do something great and this is why I kind of really feel it when it's like you just have to publicly feel not again I'm not saying that you're failing but it's like until you're winning you have truly truly

truly won like you're publicly failing until then you're getting better you're learning lessons whatever whatever like how has that all kind of been and yeah, I just

think it's really interesting how your it seems like your ego has never, you know wavered throughout all of that the past year.

Uh, yes, correct.

Uh, well, my ego and my ability to get [ __ ] done and win has always been extremely high. I mean, it's very easy

extremely high. I mean, it's very easy to get caught up in the noise, but it's also, you know, it's also very easy to objectively take a step back, realize, you know, this is year one. um you look

at any of the numbers and any other startup in the entire world with not as much hype, they would be celebrated and um you know like like applauded for these numbers, but you know we have the

same hype as probably like a [ __ ] lab like OpenAI damn near. Um so the the relevance we have the mental relevant the mental real estate we occupy is the same as uh in fact way more than most

public companies. So the expectations

public companies. So the expectations are, you know, as of other huge public companies, but uh in all honesty, objectively, we're doing great. Uh but

it's very easy to get caught up in the moment of uh you know, like online whatever the [ __ ] But I think that's just like um this is a question better suited for an influencer or someone like Logan Paul or Jake Paul like how did you

deal with the hate? Like the answer is you just deal with it. Uh

so yeah. Um I just deal with it. object

back back in July the tweet that you're referencing. I I remember the tweet. I

referencing. I I remember the tweet. I

was I was just in my bed thinking like damn like my life had changed so much since literally six months ago or five months ago at the time. So in in 5 months I went from being completely no-name to probably being one of the

most well-known figures in tech. Um I

didn't have any idea what I was doing. I

had a fuckload of money and I didn't really know how to grow the team. I

didn't know how to grow a product. I

didn't know anything. I was suddenly shoved into the same having the same mental relevance as literally OpenAI at the time. And uh it was very frightening

the time. And uh it was very frightening and you know like I was getting a lot of hate. So I had to simultaneously learn

hate. So I had to simultaneously learn all the lessons I needed to start a company. Also simultaneously had to

company. Also simultaneously had to learn exactly how to navigate dealing with being a pseudo influencer and h had to figure out product, figure out marketing, figure out all this other [ __ ] keep making tweets. So it was very

stressful time in my life. And I

thought, you know, I just made a pensive tweet saying like, damn, I really hope I win cuz if I do win, I will be a [ __ ] trends setter like the world has never seen before. And if I lose, then it'll

seen before. And if I lose, then it'll be it'll be terrible. I'll be forgotten by people or or despised. And um it was just a thought I really want to win. But

yeah, I mean like I I don't really objectively the same things that would shake my ego are the same things that would uh support it which are like wow you are literally in the eyes of every single person and you have a lot of

haters. You know like at the same time

haters. You know like at the same time like damn I have so many haters but you know equivalently uh I did something to get the attention of literally everybody in technology. So,

in technology. So, um, rationally, I think a rational person would not freak out at at the cards that I had. And I didn't. And I didn't let my

I had. And I didn't. And I didn't let my ego get faltered because I