The ultimate guide to JTBD | Bob Moesta (co-creator of the framework)

I think one of the biggest misconceptions around jobs to be done is this notion that it's pain and gain as opposed to context and outcome when you hear somebody's story and it seems irrational like we'll have people go oh

my God that's an anomaly that doesn't happen but what what you realize is that the the context makes the irrational rational so the moment you hear a story and you go I can't believe that nine times out of 10 it's because you don't

have the rest of the story and so part of it is being able to understand the rest of that context that would drive me to say like why would somebody cut their arm off well if they're in this situation and this and this and this like there's nobody would say they want to cut their arm off but in certain

situations you'll do it and so that's what we're trying to do is find where will people change Behavior welcome to Lenny's podcast where I interview world-class product leaders and growth experts to learn from

their hardwind experiences building and growing today's most successful products today my guest is Bob mea Bob is the co-creator of the jobs to beone framework alongside Kay Christensen and

as you'll hear at the top of our conversation is maybe the most anticipated guest I've had on based on the LinkedIn response Bob has started eight companies and is currently the co-founder and CEO of the rewire group

and currently spends his time helping companies of all sizes unlock hidden insights and create successful products and services in our conversation we get deep into all aspects of the jobs to be

done framework what is it how to apply to your product when it's not a good fit how to interview customers to get accurate insights into their struggles plus examples of how jobs to be done

works for 0 to1 products and a ton more thank you to everyone who suggested Ed questions and topics for our conversation enjoy my chat with Bob mea after a short word from our

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visit merge. d/ Lenny to get started and integrate up to three customers for free free Bob thank you so much for being here welcome to the podcast thanks L

excited to be here big fan ah I'm a big fan of yours I wasn't even super familiar with you before we started organizing this Podcast chat and then as you saw I posted on LinkedIn what

questions people had for you and around jobs to be done in general and I've never seen so many comments and questions and so much passion for guests I had on I think there there's really

over absolutely there's I don't know 130 questions comments and comments and like folks like Jason freed founder of 37 signals and Dez from intercom came out and just like I am excited for this

episode so we got I've worked with all of them they're great great people and fun to work with I just had no idea there's so much passion for jobs to be done I have a million questions for you A lot of them coming from the audience

some for me so I'm excited to dig into a lot of this stuff all right let's dive in okay so I thought it'd be just to start with the very Basics briefly just what is the simplest way to understand

the jobs to be done framework I think the easiest way to think about it is that that I'm an engineer I've basically uh electrical basically have been building product for almost 30 years and

one of the lies I was told growing up was build it and they will come right and so we always thought think about it from a technological how do I build this thing and all right who who wants this product and what I realized very early

in my career is that didn't that really didn't make it didn't work I couldn't make it work and so jobs that be done is this whole premise is that people hire products right they don't buy them they

hire them to make progress in their life and if we can take a step back and look at it we see it in a very different light to realize like at some point they're in some context and there's some outcome they want and if we can

understand that we start to realize that different things compete right simple example is think of Snickers and Milky Way right they're both candy bars they're both fought in the in the checkout aisle you know they're both

both made almost with the same ingredients one has peenuts one doesn't but and and if you start to compare the products and like do a competitive Benchmark you know you start to get to one's a little softer one's a little

harder one's one's got a few more calories one's got less calories but when you talk to people about when the when's the last time they ate a Snickers right and when times the last time they ate a Milky Way you start to realize

that Snickers typically is a case where they're they're theyve missed the last meal they've got a lot of work to do they're running out of energy and they want to basically get to back to the tasks as fast as possible and so you

start to realize that Snickers you know is is about almost like a meal replacement right and it's about the the the stomach is growling and things like that and you start to realize that if if they didn't have a Snickers it competes

with a protein drink it competes with with you know a Red Bull a coffee right but a Milky Way typically is eaten after an emotional experience could be positive could be negative it's usually

eaten alone right and it's taking time to regroup after this emotional thing and you start to realize that it competes with things like you know a glass of wine a brownie and to be honest

a run and so you start to realize that jobs helps you see the true competitive set from what we call the demand side of the world as opposed to the competitive set from the supply side of the world which is the technology or the

underlying business model by how which we're we're making it and so it allows you to actually see what customers really want as opposed to trying to figure out how do we sell things to

people to maybe follow up on this example a bit how often do you find these jobs emerge after they've developed a product like in this case I guess of Snickers or Milky Way how often

is it just like they see this problem and actually apply this approach with even accidentally what's interesting is that at least for me the thing is what I learned was that supply and demand are

not as connected as everybody thinks most people think they create a product and that creates demand but the real thing that if you start to study causality is that a struggling moment causes demand and you start to realize

that in some cases that struggling moment exists and can exist for a long time and nobody solved it so one of the companies I helped was uh Southern New Hampshire University and Paula blank and

one of the things in 2010 we we found basically these anomalies these people who were going to school but not actually coming to class and watching everything online and it was like 50 or 60 of them and the anomalies basically

and they're paying full price they didn't want to come it was it was very for Paul it was kind of like why are they doing this and when we went to study them we realized that they actually had a very different job than a typical 18 to 24 year old because when

they were a little bit older typically they they had either already had a degree or they basically had tried to go to college and it didn't work and it was about basically time now that they had responsibility to do something new and

so you know they didn't actually build the product at all and as they started to look and say how many people want to go back to school but can't they started to realize it's not a thousand people it's not 10,000 people they have over

200,000 students they're one of the largest universities in the world and so it it starts all of this starts with a struggling moment not with a product and so that's what we mean when we're customer Centric is that we're studying

the struggling moments they have and that people like intercom and base camp they look at struggling moments and that that becomes their road map so they don't actually because again think about a road map I'm literally trying to tell

you what I'm going to build in the next 24 months for example but like none of us saw chat GPT coming and so all of a sudden I have to go undo the road M but if I talk about the struggling moments

that I'm trying to go after all of a sudden I realize that the road map is now when I get to that struggling moment there's multiple ways I can solve it so instead of just talking about features it's typically talking about features

for the first 90 to 120 days but after that we just talk about struggling moments because that's the seed for real Innovation and basically where new products come from to unpack the framework a little bit more if you were

to come to a founder and tell them hey you should be paying attention to struggling moments I feel like all of them will say yeah we know that like we do that we look for pain and we try to solve it so what I'm curious there maybe

it's just what does the what is maybe the right way to do it but it's it's not just the pain most see what we were taught in business school was pain and gain but the reality is it's the context it's the fact that I didn't eat eat

lunch before the fact that I still have a lot of work to do the fact that I have this podcast going on it's it's not that I'm in pain but it's the context that makes me value this in the moment that

much more than than something else and so part of this is it's not just about you know Pain and Gain it's about context and outcomes right and so when you frame it that way it becomes a

vector a vector of progress or a vector of intention of what they're trying to do and once we frame that then we can actually wrap technology around it and the crazy part is that I was always told

or taught if I build the best products it will sell better and what I've learned is that actually a kickass half is better than a half-ass hole and that's what Jason talks about but the reality like if you look at QuickBooks

QuickBook is half the half the features and double the price and you start to realize that at some point in time it's about meeting customers where they are not trying to wow them and not trying to

convince them they convince themselves to make the progress I'd like to understand this Vector piece more because that feels really important so you're saying that it's not just there's

a paino solve that what you're saying is what's even more important is this context around that paino and things that preced it yeah so so so if if this

is so the first thing is we don't ask we don't talk to people who just want to for people listening on the podcast uh Bob pulled up a a drawing so you should try to check out the YouTube video of

this to see what he's doing so there's some product a is the old product and there's some product B which is the new product and ultimately people don't randomly do anything and so the real

heart of the method of jobs be done is understanding the causation of what pushes people to say today the day I got to do something different and the push or the context they in has nothing to do with the new product it's

the only reason why they would leave the old product and if there's no push they can't even see your product because we're creatures of habit right and so as soon as I have a push I call that F1

Force One right and I have some idea of what's possible then I create something called F2 which is basically the pull to a new

outcome a new a new state a new thing right and so at some point time it's like I have to be in this situation and I have to want this outcome right but here's the other part is that there's

this waterline that there's these other forces and there's two other forces every time I show somebody something new it actually creates anxiety right anxiety of the new yeah

and I call this F3 right and then the other thing is I have to get them to leave old thing so I call this habit of the present and what you start to realize

and I call that F4 and is if F1 and F2 are not greater than F3 and F4 they're not going to move they're not going to do anything and so ultimately what's what we're doing is we're framing the market

as a system of behavior and most people say if I just add more features create more pull people will buy it's not true more features create actually anxiety

can it do all those things and what you start to realize is if I reduce friction which is the bottom part I actually don't have to do do anything with a product I just have to make easier so for example one of the things I did is I

built houses and one of the frictional points that people had in in building and moving was the fact of moving to the house was basically packing all their stuff up and going somewhere and so I

would literally sell them a condo they'd go from a 3,000 foot home to a 1500 foot condo and they'd cancel six weeks later because they didn't know how to get rid of all their stuff which is a which is a

frictional point so what did I do I actually in raised the price of the condo included moving in two years of storage in the you know in is part of the deal with the condo because it's the frictional coefficient and I increase

sales over 30% I love that so what this is is it's really about focusing on the customer it's about understanding the causation behind it and then using design thinking to actually start to

realize how do we actually enable people to make progress we don't need to sell them we need to enable them to buy and so I wrote a book called demands Side sales that that basically took the

premise of like stop to sell people and just help them make progress help them buy and so the whole the whole book is instead of trying to base the sales process on how we want to sell we need

to actually design the sales process on how they want to buy and it seems like it's the same thing but they're actually really really different things is there an example that can make this even more

real of a company or product so one of the companies I work with a lot uh lately is a company called autobooks they're based here in Detroit and they basically do uh they they help Banks

basically do uh invoicing through uh let's say Apple pay and so instead of having to use square or PayPal you literally can use your bank now to do these things and so there's two things they have to sell small business on it

but they also have to sell banks on it and when we started talking about it they they talked about why do banks want it the first thing we did is we found out there's three really different reasons why Bank want Banks want them

but the thing is is that the where the process looked at is they would talk about the struggling moment they talk about what was going on and then everything was about getting him to a demo and once we got him to a demo we

had to close them well it turns out that there's the the that the buying process is literally has different phases in it there's a first thought there's something called passive looking where they're problem aware and solution

unaware and they have to learn a bunch of things and then there's active looking where they're both problem and solution aware and they're trying to figure it out and frame a solution and and then there's deciding which is about

making tradeoffs and so what we end up doing is is when I started to talk to the the team about it what they started realized is I said where are where is the customer in their timeline of buying

and they looked at me like huh I said no no you you have a timeline of how you want to sell to them and after the demo you try to close but what if they're actually imp passive looking and want a

demo to learn more it's very different than if I'm trying to close and so what we end up doing is breaking the demo apart asking people where they were in their buying process and by doing that we actually then found out a way in

which to give them three different demos one about telling stories and giving them the the background about the problem another one about showing them all the Alternatives and then the last one is about basically giving them

choices between ways to move forward right and you'd think that it would take the make the sales process longer it actually made the sales process almost half and it 4X basically

conversion because now we meet them where they are as opposed to where we want them to be and is that something you find generally in the sales process there's these three phases that everyone goes through and you got to think about them

individually yeah you there's actually uh I I call them six phases first thought passiv looking active looking deciding first use and then ongoing use how do we build

the new habit and so if we don't actually study that part of how do people transform themselves through a struggling moment we don't know what they want like if I talk to people who

want to buy a house they tell me they want granite and hardwood and they'll make everything these things they want but when you actually talk to people who bought a house they actually made a lot of trade-offs and so for example

everybody I would survey before Bing house I had 93% say they wanted an energy star compliant house it cost 30 grand to make an energy star compliant at the time and the reality is is like

nobody bought it they all bought the finished basement and so there's the difference between what they say they want and what they want and so the method itself is not based on traditional research or market research

asking people what it is it's actually based on criminal and intelligence interrogation about telling me the story about how you decided today's the day I bought a house or today's the day I I

bought a you know I went back to school it's not random and if it's not random then we need to actually find it and and that to me is one of the bigger differences most people build their sales process on probability and and

like if I get so many leads in I'll convert so many to here so many but the ultimate thing is how many people are really ready for your product they have to actually be ready for it and that's what jobs to be done is really about is

understanding where they are what's causing it and how do they make the tradeoffs so let's follow that thread of interviewing and talking to your potential customers and customers to understand the jobs to be done what is

the actual process you you recommend the first thing we do is is is we frame a question and and I the way I think about it is most people so uh the one thing to know about me is uh I I've been building

things for over 30 years I've worked on 3500 different products and services across many many Industries but I I've had three closee head brain injuries before I was seven years old and I can't

read right and so one of the things for me is that I could not understand the research that I would get from marketing around basically they'd say hey I need something that's uh easy fast and fun

and cheap and i' be like okay what does any of that mean what is fast how fast is fast and what's not fast and you start to un undo all those things and so the first thing we do is we start to frame like let's just talk about what

causes people to say today's the day they want to go on vacation or today's the day they want a new set of Windows and you start to frame around that and then you go find people who recently purchased and say what in the world

happened that says today's the day I need new windows and you start to realize that there's pushes and there's pulls and there's anxieties and there's habits and so the first thing we do is we try to

extract the story from the the customer right and it doesn't have to be my product it could be somebody else's product it doesn't if if I haven't built it yet right it's literally like what are people going to fire when they hire

me so when we get the stories though then we start to the stories are going to get us the pushes the pulls the anxieties and the habits the trade-offs and what we call the higher and fire criteria and then what we do is we

instead of trying to look for themes across all of them we actually do something instead of segmenting them we cluster them we find the pathways because what you start to realize is

it's not one reason why people do it it's sets of reasons and those sets actually work together so the pushes work with the polls so when they have these pushes they want these polls and when they don't have these pushes they

don't want those pulls and so when you start to see the patterns and you start to pull it out you start to realize that most most companies or most products are hired to do three four five different

jobs and they're in conflict with each other one person wants to go faster and one person wants to go uh be more thorough and so all of a sudden being more thorough means it's slower so if I say we're thorough the people who want

to fast say I I don't want this because it's too slow so how do you frame those things out and understand where the conflicts are behind it and think about different products from it I mean that's what intercom did right intercom

realized that people hired it for four very very different reasons and then instead of building for different products they literally took their product and turned off the features that were not relevant to the pathway that

people wanted to take so for a choir they didn't need a whole bunch of these other features and so they actually framed it around basically how do we help people convert and that that job actually competed with HubSpot there's

another one where it was about help me with support and that one competed with zenes and so they actually re they changed the pricing model to basically match who the competition was and to match the progress that people were

trying to make because zenes was too much and too hard and and HubSpot felt like it was it was an overkill for where people were we basically figured out how to actually position ourselves as a good

Next Step between HubSpot and nothing or between nothing and HubSpot and that's how they've grown to be be over valued over two billion I have a followup

question but did you say that you can't read and write yeah I can't read and write so so I can so the thing is is is I cannot read the words that I write and

I cannot read like so if somebody reads it to me I can actually uh play back so I'll listen to audio but the fact is is the way I was taught to read is to so

the when I look at a paragraph I see the spaces between the words first and then I usually see the the left hand edge of the word so the last three letters and

so my mom taught me to look at the five largest words on the Page by circling the longest words on the page and then I would study those and translate those and then figure out kind of what those

five words would have in common because for me the the part that's broken in my brain is that I can't look up things fast enough so by the time I try to look at a word figure out what it is get the definition I've literally forgotten

every word before it damn how are you writing books it's a gift I'm telling you it's a gift this is what this is what it's a gift I'd never wish upon my children but to be honest

it's given me abilities to see patterns in so many different ways because I can remember the first five words in the first paragraph and the last five words in the last paragraph So I turn through a book three or four times and I have as

good a comprehension as everybody else this is insane how are you how is how are you writing books uh it's really simple I have a company called scribe media and what we do is we frame first

thing we do is we look for what are the struggling moments the book is going to address what struggling moments do people have we then look at what are the competitive books wrapped around it I then basically

outline what progress looks like we then take each chapter and Define it as a system and what we have to do in each chapter to help them make the progress along the way and then they we just talk

and we talked we have 10 two-hour sessions they get recorded and then somebody basically takes so if you listen or read any of my books it's

sounds like me talking because it is wow and so I can get a book out in three and a half four months that's incredible and so now I so I'm a teacher I'm a adjunct

lecturer at the Kellog school at Northwestern and then I I guest lecture on the east coast and kind of uh different Business Schools and then I help Tech Stars in white combinator so

I'm really moving myself into kind of being into I feel it's time to pass on I've had some amazing uh mentors who helped me and again I was told to be a baggage handler a construction worker

when I graduated high school and my mom thought I could do more and so I met these people who poured their knowledge into me to enable me to do all this stuff so now I'm trying to pay it

forward as much as I can so that's one of the reasons why I do as many podcasts as I can so again I appreciate you having me yeah this is uh this is a great opportunity to pass it on and so I'm very yes yes happy we're doing that

I had no idea about any of this about you so thank you for sharing that it's been fun like I like I pinched myself the other part is I don't know how I got here one of the things things that I've been doing is I've been studying people

for the last 10 years around why they switch from one company to another to literally understand the jobs of jobs because employees actually hire companies more than companies hire employees and so you start to realize

the struggling moment is why don't we have enough people and otherwise like I want to leave but I don't know how to leave and so I've been I'm in the midst of writing a book around that right now with Michael Horn and uh Ethan Bernstein

is there an Insight from that work that you can share about why people leave jobs or join jobs so the number one one thing that I would say is almost everybody when you ask them about how they got their La their the job they're

in the number one phrase you get is it was so lucky I was so lucky just happened to fall in my lap and then when you actually unpack the story that luck

had nothing to do with it right it's it's they were prepped they were ready there was pushes there were pulls there was anxieties they were able do and you start to realize like and and the funny part is that if I talked to somebody

who's been you know through three or four kind of switches they all say yep I've had that job yep I've had that job yep I've had that and so there's frames around basically understanding what progress are you really trying to make

now is it do I need balance am I not challenged enough and you start to frame it and when you frame it you start to realize I'm willing to actually take less money to be around smarter people because I want to be a Founder later and

so you start to realize that all of these things where where we think we have to pay more money over 50% of the people who got new jobs didn't get more money it's a lie

yeah it's about it's about progress It's about what do they want to learn what skills do they want to get what at some point is about money but it's not always about money and the other interesting

part is when you talk about money we talked about this notion of unpacking we'll say well why do you need more money it's like well I have larger obligations or I want more money because

I want more respect and so what you realize is in the hiring and firing criteria they talk about money but money actually has a bigger effect that than just money it's about respect or it's

about you know responsibility or it's about you know their their no their metric of progress there's a whole bunch of things but it's like it's not just money that's the interesting part yeah

I've definitely done that myself there's a status component your job yep I want I want the title right happens all the time I want to come back to the uh

discussion we were just having around interviewing people to understand the jobs to be done and a bunch of people on LinkedIn were trying to understand just like tactically what they need to get

right in order to get accurate jobs so I guess there may there just like a couple tactics you recommend for how to interview people let let me give you three tips one is what the first tip I'd

tell you is go read uh never split the difference by Chris Boss like I started to write a book around basically techniques that I learned back in the 80s and 90s around this and he his book

is amazing around it like how to mirror like the whole notion of getting to know like I play things back incorrectly because they're going to say no I'm going to say all right fix it and then they'll talk more the moment they somebody says yes there's nothing more

to say and so there's a bunch of techniques you have to learn to basically get them talking the second is you you I only talk to people who have already tried to make the

progress right so so for example you know people talk about like well you can't apply this to something that's new like we don't it doesn't exist so I work with a company that that was a I'll say

a fairly large social media company and and it's at some point in time they found people kind of transacting on their platform but they didn't know anything about it and they had built anything and what they end up doing is

we end up going and studying eBay and Etsy and what caused somebody to say today's a day I'm going to set up an eBay store or sell something on Craigslist and out of that we found all the jobs of what people both sellers

were doing and buyers were doing and and and now it's I think it's almost a three billion dollar Marketplace that didn't exist and they they they learned about it all from the competitors sounds like Facebook

Marketplace maybe um no com I didn't say that how many interviews do you recommend people do to get to a confident that's a that's

a great controversial question the P the interesting part is from a causal mechanism perspective and from a from a set theory perspective meaning the sets

of pushes pulls anxieties and habits it starts to repeat around seven or eight and I usually do 10 no more than 12 and I would rather do two rounds of 12

interview then do 24 interviews I had some really interesting mentors one of them was Dr Deming who's the father of lean and Quality Systems and like that and so he would always push me to

basically how to do things faster and smaller and so that's where a lot of it came and you just realize that people will say oh we have to do something statistically significant well you do if you're doing it randomly but if you

actually understand the the the range of your market and you know that 50% of it is above 30 years old and 50% is below 30 years old I can actually sample in a way that makes me get a good representation without having to

actually do 50 interviews and so that's we use something called designed experiments to help with that I love the concrete numbers and so along those lines when you're actually like asking questions of people do you have any best

practices and ways of phrasing a question to get a response you can trust in a lot of cases you have to look at it from multiple perspectives and so this

is where so the other the other tip I have is to not have a discussion guide it drives people crazy because everybody wants to ask the same set of questions

but the problem happens is when you ask the same set of questions you actually don't follow the ones that actually have the most meaningful information in it right and so what happens is is what I say is I use the framework of pushes

pulls anxieties and habits and say what caused them to do this and everything else is just a conversation of trying to understand their story and so part of this is is being able to ask the

questions around why but you can't ask why why why why why it's like tell me more about that give me an example you know and in a lot of cases when when when they run out of I usually get them

to what I call the edge of language where they have no more language and what I do is I literally then bracket it so was it more about this or more about that and I know it's neither one of those and it forces them to talk more

right it's always trying to get them to know because the moment I get to so when I play it back so you did this and this and this and this it's like no that wasn't it and the people who are working with like you know that's not the right answer I'm like I know but they're going

to elaborate on why it's not that those thing and so it's it's literally being able to reveal kind of that the causal mechanisms of why people do what they

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velocity when I think about jobs to be done I've never like fully implemented any sort of structured framework but I find that it's been really useful in my newsletter work and my podcast work just thinking about what is the job my

newsletter is doing for people for me it's helping people get better at the craft of building and growing products and I just think of it there's these buckets of jobs to be done and then there's this like formal let's just do it for real I guess one do you find that

to be true there's like the very simple and there's the more official so what I would say is I find a lot of Founders especially really successful Founders like I'd say Jason's one of Jason

Freed's one of those where where he he intuitively understood this like he actually thinks this way but didn't have Lang wrapped around it right so so I think that it's a very useful framework

I think the the danger you run into is that when you what look at the customer through the product so if I look at the customer through the Snickers bar then I think of Milky Way as a competitor but

if I look at the if I look at the customer and say why did they pick that thing then I realize that a protein shake and a and an apple and a sandwich are the competitors not Milky Way got it

so say someone wanted to start going in this direction of job to be done what is the simplest I don't know first version lightweight approach to starting to think this way so there's two things if

if I have a product you know go find 10 people who recently bought your product but what I want you to do is go talk to them not about the product but about why they bought the product what was going

on what were they hoping for what were they worried about what did they have to give up how did they convince somebody else just to just listen to The Story start with just getting the story because there's three three levels of

information we have to get or three sources of energy that I talk about so think about is there's got to be energy in the system for us to do something and there's what I call functional energy

which is usually time space effort knowledge right there's emotional energy which is how I feel I want to feel better I feel frustrated I feel overlooked there's there's there's

emotional aspects to it and then there's social aspects how I want others to perceive me or how others perceive me oh my boss is going to fire me because I he doesn't think I'm doing this fast enough

and I feel inadequate so part of his understanding kind of the emotional social and functional components that are part of that energy source got it the second part is is if it's an

established product has been there a while I'd actually go and talk to people who churned because in churn what's interesting is when somebody leaves your product they're still making

progress we think it's bad for us which it probably is but in their mind it's like yeah this was too hard and complicated or you know what it didn't do enough for us it allows you to actually understand the struggling moment they had because again they were

using your product and something happened and and some context changed and now they struggle with it and now they got to go find something else nobody wants to change so that makes

this actually the easiest thing to look at is tell me why people changed we just seem to literally not want to go deep enough and we use the lazy word of random and probability as pseudo for

knowledge and it's not knowledge it's literally just if context is the same if outcomes is the same then I can do it but like if I listen to football stats

you know third down right in in preseason is very different than third down in playoffs right and so giving me a stat about how their third down conversion is

across the whole season makes no sense to me because the context is different you brought up this point that people often and say they really hate something and it comes across that

they're ready to switch and we'll use something that you've built that's better but they don't because of that friction you mentioned what do you look for that might tell you that they're really actually going to use it for real

and it's that serious the very first thing I would say is I never trust anybody telling me things they're going to do yeah because they can't assure it and they it usually never happens it's

just it's it's it's it's my experience that says that and so the the is I need to talk to people who did something and tried and though they might have failed what made them try so the phrase I have

is uh bitching ain't switching just because people about something doesn't mean they're going to do anything about it right this is where like a base camp we learned the fact that everybody said oh if you had Gan charts God you you

know I'm Gonna Leave You if you don't put Gan charts in or resource allocation and as much as they all say they want it they're not leaving because of it and if you follow this is the other part if you

follow your best users they'll take you up to this world that then actually destroys the lower end of the world of why people are there and so if Bas Camp would have added all those things one of

the reasons why people join base camp is because it's so dang simple and if I start to add all these things that make it more complicated it doesn't work and so in those conversations is there something you find that just this is a

sign they're actually really serious or do you just like I'm not going to listen to anything they're saying in this case until we actually build it and they are using it so for example in the first five minutes of an interview

they're going to tell you I bought a new car because I got a deal on it and it was you know it was a car I've been dreaming about forever and like they have all these things and then when you start to get to it it's like no the old car had 280,000 miles on it you had

three large bills in the last four months the fact is it's making a sound and you've got a long trip coming up like that's why you're getting a car you're not getting the car because the deal and so this is where you so there's

these I called the the layers of language and the very first layer is called the paum layer where people just like how was your day I was good right but nobody knows what that means and if

you ask one farther question well what was good about it they're like H and then you get to the next layer the next layer is usually the fantasy nightmare layer oh it was so good because of this or oh my God it was so bad because they

exaggerate to one degree or a next and then what you want to do is actually then pull it back to like what actually happened this where you got to be more of an investigator and an interrogator and and the way I would describe it is

it's criminal and intelligence interrogation that feels like therapy because most people don't actually know why they bought because they only think about the time they wrote the check swiped the card but the reality is like

I did an interview with somebody who bought a coat rack right $137 coat rack it took them 18 months to buy it and in their mind they bought it they

bought they say they bought it in a week but the reality is is like the debate about getting it and why they couldn't get it was happening for over 18 months so this is where you you can't

believe what they say you have to you have to do your investigation to get there and what does that phrase use again for that Vector of progress uh the intention it's the context that they're

in and the outcome so here's the thing is that most people talk about you want to get to this outcome and people value this outcome but value is not just the outcome value also has where you start

so if I start here and I end here I'm going to Value it this much but if I start down here right gotta get there start down here and I go up here I value that much more and so part of it is is

value is actually part of where they're starting from and where they want to go and most people say if I just get them up here they're really going to love it but some people say like I just want to get here and so you're overshooting it and they want to they they actually want

to price discount because you're giving them more than they want so I'm going to go in a different direction the most liked comment on LinkedIn asking people what questions to

ask he was by shiram Krishna who's actually on this podcast in the past yeah yeah yeah yeah I I remember seeing it I remember hearing it like and I was this one of by the way I think it's one of the reasons why I reached out because

I'm like okay I need we need we need to clarify this a okay great so you saw his rant he's not not what you'd say a fan of jobs to be done no and so so here's the question you wanted to ask is there

a case of a startup or modern technology company or any company that was using J jobs to be done to launch a product from zero to one that has had broad adoption that's a challenge in in inside the

company or brought adoption that the product that we've developed had brought adoption the latter yeah the product has done really well I I I already told you an example I can't say it but you can

right it's it's the thing is so for example autobooks is another one that did this right they start to realize that the fact is is like you need to study the struggling moments and it

helps you determine what not to build right too many times we just keep adding more and more things to the product and so it it in large organizations it's very difficult

because at some point the the dominant market research is is about hypothesis testing right I'm going to go build a hypothesis and go basically then go

build a research project to prove or disprove that hypotheses but the reality is is jobs we've done research is hypothesis building research I don't

know that's part of the point is like we really don't know we think we know but Dr taguchi would always tell me there's way more unknown than there is known and never forget

it and so again what what causes people to buy Windows is is not what we think it is and so you start to realize that I think drer said it best he goes what what businesses think they're selling is

not what customers are buying and to be honest he said that 1953 and it's still true today like I I just did interviews today where they like oh people are buying for this

reason and we did we did uh what 11 12 interviews and you started realiz like nope that's not why they're buying and they're like shocked awesome okay so you didn't say it but maybe Facebook

Marketplace so if you like auto books would be one you're trying from zero to one from nothing right brand new product is is kind of the the question there yep so so at Tech Stars we basically make sure that everybody does but they come

in they usually don't have a product to start with and at least in the Chicago uh and and San Francisco offic we do we basically have do jobs in the very very beginning of that and we have companies

like neutrient and Havoc shield and there's a whole bunch of them that are out there that are that that are growing and and and going down that pathway and so to me it's it's it's very very useful

especially in the zero to one space but the notion is you have to real the way that I frame it is what will people stop using when your product comes out and that's who you want to go

interview so for the marketplace thing it was like Hey I want him to stop using Craigslist I want him to stop using eBay I want him to stop using Etsy if that's the case what are they doing and how do

I do it better than that so I can understand there are really no new jobs right it's just the fact is they we get better at them and so the higher fire criteria get better but the context

and outcome most jobs I could look back 10 years in the job existed and I can look ahead 20 years and and the job's going to exist it's just the the nature of how the technology delivers on it is

what gets better awesome and it sounds like intercom and base camp also are very early jobs to be done at very early yep so I think with shiram something that I read between the lines

is he worked at Twitter for many years and I think Twitter attempted a job to be done framework and I don't know if it went well and I think it just caused a lot of people to think this is a terrible framework so this is where I think there's there's different flavors

of it and what I would say is that that one one flavor is really what I call very supply side driven where it takes the underlying technology and then looks at it and says all right what else can we do where can we be better where are

where are things that are important but we're not satisfying on them and being able to prioritize and so there's a very systematic approach that's hundreds of

steps and very very uh prescriptive in nature the the method that I have and that I've been using mostly because I've been in the startup world and uh and doing new to the world type stuff is

it's very very qualitative organic and and it's a combination of a process practice and and uh skills so every company actually has its own own

Innovation process based on who they have who they're serving the underlying technology and so to have in my opinion to have a very predictive uh one process

that fits across everybody I I think there are there are principles but I don't think there's one process so that's where I think I think that's what they used at Twitter the other thing is is that I think you know Jack was Jack

was actually a big fan and he worked with Clay on a couple of things but I I don't think they worked on the method part of it they worked on the thinking part of it and so it was more about so one of the most dangerous things you can

do is sit in a room and and and hypothesize what the jobs are because I will guarantee you you're 100% wrong and so this was this is what happens by the

way being this is The Gift of Dyslexia is I'm not an a student and so most a students don't start until they know the answer most most D students start

because they don't know the answer and so you start to realize we're very very different why you're very differently to do that and so I always say that the a students have a have a have a disadvantage against the D

students in in entrepreneurship because we just go start and we learn rate that and there we don't have to hypothesize everything first because we actually don't know how to do that so your advice

there is essentially people often get jobs to be done wrong because they just sit around and think about the jobs to be done and aren't actually doing the work to interview and understand they think more about the outcomes and they

think about what's the best outcomes we can get for people and what you start to realize is that there are trade-offs people make and ultimately there's some irrational piece some irrational

component that makes everything twist around like the irrational component is like why in the world do people eat Snickers when they're hungry it's a candy

bar well it turns out when you bite it it's masticates into a ball and it sits in your stomach and it absorbs the acid that's causing you to say hey I got to eat something and so part of it is the role of the peanuts and the role of the

nougat is actually to masticate it together the caramel should be sticking it together versus in a Milky Way the melting temperature of the caramel is so light that you take a bite it Li it's

liquid you drink it down you you you you swallow like it's a drink it has nothing to do with food and so you start to realize that it's it's connecting the experiences to the outcome to the

context and outcome it's connecting the supply side with the demand side but it starts with the demand side first struggling moments and opportunities all

exist before there's a product making me hungry I I bought I I brought it I bought a couple but I didn't I didn't use them but I bought a couple and you start to I mean you go deep into it you

start to realize that this is the crazy part everybody thinks they compete but like if you literally go back to a moment when you picked up a Snickers bar like you were not thinking about a Milky Way you weren't thinking of like half

the candy aisle you're thinking of like I want a sandwich or do I want Snickers like half the reason why they pick Snickers is it's 300 calories I can eat it in three bites it's done it's not

messy and I can keep working it's mainlining food I don't know if I've ever had a Milky Way To be honest so that's right I don't need that Comfort that's the funny part is you go to you go to the tech tech all the big Tech

hubs in in San Francisco and you know the Snickers are all empty and the Milky Ways are all full yeah I get that you mentioned that there's two different approaches or many different approaches

to the jobs to be done framework and this is a question someone actually asked that maybe a framework by someone named Tony olick and then there's your approach and then maybe Klay Christensen maybe has an approach so can you just help clarify so

clay clay and I collaborated on on it so I I was lucky enough to have Clay as a mentor for uh 27 years I met with him once a quarter for 27 years and at some point I shared with them kind of the

hack of how we kind of like how I was thinking about this and what I was doing and at some point he said we need to turn into a theory uh to me it was more like my workaround because I couldn't read and write let me go talk to some

people I'll figur it out and ultimately we turned it into a method so like if you look at competing against luck it was written with taty Hall and Karen Dylan and uh Dave Duncan but I was I I

helped on that book uh for 16 months some of the clients in there are my clients I think in com is in that one so clay and I are aligned in that clay was more about turning into a theory and I

would say I'm more about having it be a method so his is like a a thinking framework and a philosophy and a strategic kind of frame frame where our mind is very tactical about how do we

get it and then what do we do with it Ox comes from a very different perspective and and again I think it's very valuable but it comes from the notion of like functions and it's more like what can

our product do what jobs can our product do as opposed to the way I look at it is you know basically only people have jobs products don't have jobs people have

jobs organizations don't have jobs people in organizations have job because that's the irrational part and so fundamentally there's that two different views of how do we look at it

but but ultimately I would say Clay's approach and my Approach are derived from the same data set where all Wix is derived from a different data set a different set of experiences super interesting I had no

idea about this and your senses in the case of Twitter for example maybe it was closer to Clay's just like think about it approach I think that's right I think that's right and and and again I think I

think oix is very valuable especially in some companies where there's lots of risk there's regulation there's lots of lots of moving Parts very complicated systems but at the same time it's so

many step you have to have a very disciplined organization to follow it if someone wanted to start actually following through on this which book would you recommend they start with to help them understand how to apply your

approach I would have them read demands Side sales and it's it basically is starting from the theory of why do people buy and how do we actually understand how to flip the lens from trying to sell people things to help

them buy and ultimately it has the entire method around it kind of framed for product and for Founders awesome is job to be done ever not the right

framework for people to figure out what to build so so couple couple places one is when there's no choice or there's no real choice so so what's interesting is

think about why do you know more about your car insurance than your health insurance right and most of it is because your health insurance is given to you by your employer and you only

utilize it when you're sick but the car insurance you have to pay for it so you have to sit down and decide what are the different trade-offs you're going to make where when you do it for the employer it's good better best and it

literally is like where am I my life have I been sick you know there's some basic things but there's no real Choice there and so you start to realize where there's no real choice or where people want to make the choice obvious it it

doesn't work you have to be able to accept how people see you as opposed to how you want to be seen so when companies will come to us and say all right I want you to find

these jobs for us like nope I can't do it because it doesn't work I can tell you what the demand side is asking for and then we can see how your product fits to it and what you

have to modify to it but if I try to make the jobs help you build the case to make the jobs what you think they are it doesn't work in those cases there's a different framework you recommend or is just like you don't really have a lot of

options in a lot of cases um to me there's I'd do some ethnography I'd literally figure out kind of where there's frictional points in the system I might I might do some uh some prototyping around kind of different

Alternatives but typically it's more about what I would call the little H or how do they use for example the health insurance as opposed to why do they buy the health insurance the the other the

other example I could use is chewing gum if I talk to people about buying a pack of chewing gum most people can't remember at all when they bought a pack of chewing gum even if it was in the last week like uh I think so but if I

ask them when they chewed gum they can tell me about when they chewed gum and ultimately that will then imply when they buy gum if you go to something that's just too like it doesn't register

it's so deep of a habit that they don't really know what they're doing you'll never going to be able to get that information out of it's It's again the the habitual stuff is very hard to see

the job it's the only when people change do you see the it's like the ice you can reveal the entire Iceberg but if I've been using tide for 20 years and I ask you why do you hire tide you just make

it up you have no idea why use tide but if you switch from tide to gain or gain to tide you can tell me that story very detailed there's a reader who has the really interesting question Maria Delano

is her name she's wondering with a framework this well known you're bound to get people misinterpreting it and repeating inaccurate information about the framework and she's curious what

misconceptions most frustrate you that you just hear again and again about jobs to be done the first thing I want to say is I actually you know in in doing it I've I've explicitly made it very

accessible because the moment you make it too copywritten too patented too whatever people just move by it so part of it was being able to make it in the

public domain so people could have conversation and try it and do different things with it what I would say is there's enough people that have used it and have worked with it and have had great success with it that at some point

in time most of the people who are trying it and not using it well it's it's obvious and so it' be like how do you double down into it I think one of the biggest misconceptions around jobs

to be done is this notion that it's pain and gain as opposed to context and outcome and that it's uh I think one of the other ones is it's purely about the outcome and not just about the context

and outcome together and again I think the the biggest mistakes I've seen made is because they do it in a conference room when they don't go talk to people they don't actually find the

contradictions they don't find the the uh the irrational Parts what's really interesting is when you hear somebody's story and it seems irrational like we have people go oh my God that's an

anomaly that doesn't happen but what what you realize is that the the context makes the irrational rational so the moment you hear a story and you go I can't believe that nine times out of 10

it's because you don't have the rest of the story and so part of it is being able to understand the rest of that context that would drive somebody say like like why would somebody cut their arm off well if they're in this situation and this and this and this

like there's nobody who would say they want to cut their arm off but in certain situations you'll do it and so that's what we're trying to do is find where is where do where will people change Behavior most people are studying the

momentum of where people are and where like what the momentum of of the direction but the reality is like what we're trying to do is study what causes people to change their Direction and that's where Innovation happens

Innovation happens when people change what convinced you to spend your time in life working on jobs to be done and helping people implement this

framework and what keeps pull pulling you back that's a great question so I think I started out is I just love to build things my mom would take me

uh basically we have have something around here called big trash day is where they throw out the dishwasher and they throw out the you know the the old uh uh Mini Bike and all these different things and my mom would basically say

anything that we could fit in the trunk we could bring home so I've been building things my whole life because I've been just always fascinated with how things work so the that's the first

thing the second part is I love to help people one of the things I realized is like I can't build products for myself um and I've done seven startups but I've I realized that I have to build for

others and so to me building for others is is was where I started in product and then I realized that I'm a method Builder and that I really help people

innovate and so my my I exist to help make the abstract concrete and so that phrase has helped lead me to becoming now a teacher and a professor and write

like writing books is something I never wanted to do because I hated books clay convinced me that I had to learn how to speak and I had to write books and I like so here's here's a really good one

is that this is uh this is in 1990 so one of the things that happened was uh when my my youngest kid moved out and went uh basically moved out of the house I had I had my notebooks from

almost 30 years of every every project on everything I worked on any company and this is from one of my mentors Dr taguchi he said this in 1990 when I was living in Cologne Germany he said write a

book right and so I I opened this like 30 years later I'm like oh dang it I gotta write a book because he told me to so it's just one of those things where where I realize like I I really like

helping people I like methods I'm very curious sometimes uh annoyingly C curious but it's that that's kind of the the tri of things that I'm really that I

love to do amazing Bob is there anything else you wanted to share or touch on or make sure we cover before we get to our very exciting lightning round there's three three big things to take away one

is struggling moments is the key and if you if you can't see it's struggling moments that people take action on and what I would say is they're every where

they are freaking everywhere in our lives and and there's only certain context when all of a sudden we realize we have to do something about it so study struggling moments because at some point that's where we need the

Innovation the most this second thing is think about the progress people are trying to make what is their standard not your standard what is that context what is that outcome and the last thing

is is the way i' phrase it is choose what to suck at figure out the the tradeoffs that you need to make and make sure that your trade-offs map the trade-offs of the customer because nine

times out of 10 most products that fail is because they made a tradeoff that that the customer didn't agree with awesome well with that we've reached our very exciting lightning round I've got

six questions for you are you ready yeah I'm ready always ready for these perfect what are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people Shape Up by Ryan Singer it's phenomenal the

other book I would say is end of average by Todd Rose I listen listen to it every single year I get something out of it every single year I've been listening to it for probably eight or 10 years I literally called Todd I've become

friends with Todd we interact on a regular basis he's it's it's an amazing book what is a favorite recent movie or TV show I love big bang I watch it every

like people would say that I'm Sheldon I think I'm more Leonard but I I can see there's days that i' I I've come across as Sheldon I don't mean to be Sheldon but I like uh Oppenheimer I think uh any

of the science type I'm not really a science fiction person but it's more it's more about kind of um I'll say uh historic documentaries as I love them

all because they they help me understand the science what is a favorite interview question you like to ask when you're interviewing people what are the top three things you struggle with in your

business today that if you could solve would fundamentally change the business love it what is a favorite product recently discovered that you just really

like I recently purchased a massage chair and it's one of those things where I've been getting massages for a while and as I get older and I'm working out more I've lost almost 100 pounds and so

I'm to the point where I'm I'm working out more and I'm God nobody told me well I'm gonna be cold all the time I'm sore all the time and I'm hungry all the time and so it's like okay I need a way in

which this so I would get a massage every two weeks or so and now I can get a massage in 20 minutes on demand and it's pretty pretty free amazing man my wife has wanted one of these and this

might be good oh I I I will tell you it's like it's a lifechanger it's one of those things where I could do like we'll do interviews and I can I can go do an interview in a debrief pop it and do it

and like I'm fresh as I can be like I it's it's it's kind of it's it's better than an app is there a brand you want to throw out that you found to be Kyoto is

the one that I have I I got it from Costco it's it's fabulous okay we will be looking into that what is something relatively minor you've changed in how a company has implemented jobs to be done

that has had a big impact on their ability to do it well there's two two one is the is intercom so the way that intercom really took off and why why it

did so well is it it actually it was Dez trainer and Owen mccave who were the two Founders they actually studied uh they came to one of my workshops in the beginning but they studied it and they

tried to do it and then then we talked about it but then they brought Matt Hodges and Paul Adams and Sean Townson and and the the the executive team and they did the interviews and when they

did the interviews they understood what to do and it literally all went downhill from there and they knew how to ask the questions how to do the interviews it was kind of amazing and they like Paul

Adams and and and uh Matt H's first day at intercom was in my office in Detroit so that that to me is is is one of the key the other is is to find a

place in a large organization where where a group is struggling they can't deliver product they can't move fast enough they they they they keep getting the wrong insights they say it's going

to be this big it's not and literally focusing on a very small area and giving them a little space to demonstrate the use of it and then it will spread and with a case study or two and so most

companies they'll if they start small case studies and sharing it with people both when it works and not works or starting with the top two more questions one is someone asked

me to ask you a the dining room table story does that ring any sort of bell yeah so one of the so one of the things I did is I built houses so before I built houses I was running a a venture

capital private Equity Firm we had about 100 million I was doing 25 transactions and just traveling too much I had four children and so my wife and I kind of had the conversation that I wound it down and I

said what am I going to do I'm gonna uh I'm gonna I wanted to try to find a business I could work in and be part of and be own part of so I joined a building company uh here in Detroit and

we end up building a thousand homes here in Detroit I had 14 sites and one of the things we did is we built for downsizers like your parents and one of the things they constantly told us was look we're

downsizing we're not having that we're not having the holidays we're done with that like like I don't want a dining room table so we can't even have people over if we're going to do it we're going to go somewhere else like like I don't want the dining room table and so we

made a it's a two-bedroom two and a half bath first floor laundry G kitchen kind of amazing condo but what we realized is people if they didn't know where the

dining room table was going to go they weren going to move and so it wasn't and it turns out that the dining table was the emotional bank account for their entire Liv and so if they if if you weren't going to take it or your sister

wasn't going to take it or your brother wasn't going to take it the reality is they weren't not going to give it to Goodwill it was not going to go in the basement but it would might go into the storage unit but for the most part people would literally stay where they are until they knew where the dining

table's going to go so I did the opposite of what they told me to do which is I built a place to put the dining room table you could never eat at it it was never big enough to actually pull the chairs out of it but it was

still a symbolic of what it was and they would use it for uh puzzles and that kind of stuff but I sacrificed the second bedroom suite to basically add that and it increased sales

22% so this is a case where you learn again that that irrational contradiction that says they said this but you did that that doesn't make any sense that's what jobs helps you with those kinds of

really important small but subtle and important insights last question you showed me this very cool camera setup you have and one of the views Was Your Heroes on the wall yeah yeah yeah can you show that

and share who those so this is this is so uh I don't like at the end of the night I have this philosophy that I have the energy in your body and your brain

literally you need to use every ounce of it every day because you wake up the next day with a full bank account and you can't really save it so every night I paint and so these are paintings of my

mentors and they're above me but uh Dr Deming clay uh Dr taguchi and Dr Willie Moore I wrote about them in a book called learning to build and and the five skills that they taught me to

enable me to kind of work on so many different things in different areas and so Deming I met when I was 18 he took me to Japan I worked for Ford and Ford uh and I was responsible on the front lines

to help reduce product development cycle time at Ford from uh 72 months to 36 months so that's where I learned a lot of tools and methods and things like that from Toyota and then I learned Dr taguchi's method

which is amazing around designed experiments Dr Willie Moore was my first boss at Ford and she was a PhD in particle physics and she taught me empathetic perspective of how to see

things and uh frame things and really uh amazing amazing individual and then the last one was Klay Christensen which is I just walked in his office and he had a

sign outside his office basically saying uh anomalies wanted and I walked in and I said look I'm an anomaly I don't really know if you want anomalies but I am and we sat down and started talking

and ultimately I asked him you know what's your research and how can I help and he had been there maybe about a year and it was one of those things where he got kind of like somber and like it was

almost like I had a tear and I was like what what's going on he goes I've been here a year and everybody's asked me for things but nobody's ever asked to help me you're the first person and so that

was the beginning of the relationship and I had uh four hours a quarter for 27 years with clay with No Agenda which is kind of amazing that's incredible what a

beautiful way to wrap up our chat Bob my job to be done for this interview us to help people understand jobs to be done I think we accomplished our goal as much as we can in one hour two final questions working folks find you online

if they want to reach out and maybe ask you a question yeah LinkedIn is probably the best place and I post most of the stuff there and then I have I have several different companies but uh one is called the rewired group and uh I've

had that for about 14 years and that's where that's a design consultancy agency around helping people build and launch products and we do everything from Fortune 100 to not for-profits to

startups and different ways and then I have something called laser Ventures where we actually work uh and uh we we we work for equity and we also put money into Investments as well and that's

called laser Ventures with Andrew Glazer am we have a podcast called the circuit breaker which is uh it's more or less you know all these different concepts in 20 minute format of me and my partner

just kind of riffing around you know what is empathetic perspective or what are the forces of progress or just small little things that basically help people kind of learn along the way and it's just long enough for a commute or a walk

or something like that last question how can listeners be useful to you to be honest I I was so excited for this podcast like I was excited one because

I'm a fan but two is is to to to see your post and then get all those responses I think I said like boy I think we need more than an hour this is this is this amazing and so to be honest

posting questions asking questions letting letting the community kind of interact and it what was so interesting is it was people who had questions but then there were people like Dez and and Jason who reached out and said oh this

this will be awesome you'll love this all those kind of things so to me just keep being a community and and what I would say is as this is posted just put more questions up there and the the the hard part for me is actually answering

questions in a written form and so my request would be is that that if we can figure out a format so I can answer them more in a conversation where we like almost like a list of things where there might be a followup of some sort but if

you're if your if your you know listeners could literally help me by uh help me by being more articulate that would be great okay let's figure out if we can do some way of doing that that would be amazing that would be great Bob

again thank you so much for being here thanks thanks for having me bye everyone thank you so much for listening if you found this valuable you can

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