This Simple Mindset Shift Will Change the Way You See Your Life

Everyone listening right now who is afraid of a change they're currently navigating or they're going to have to navigate in the future and they think I can't possibly get through this. The

right question is not how am I going to get through this. It's how will that new version of me navigate this change.

Maya Shanker earned her PhD in cognitive neuroscience from Oxford. She served as a senior adviser in the White House under President Obama. Now, she's the

author of the New York Times bestseller, The Other Side of Change. When you go through a divorce or you get fired from a job, that change really makes you question, who am I?

We don't know sometimes how much something has come to define who we are until we lose it.

I want to go back to the beginning.

Okay. Little Maya, age six. That's when

I started playing the violin. Fell in

love with it immediately. I would

practice for hours. I was studying at Giuliard. I was soloing with orchestras,

Giuliard. I was soloing with orchestras, winning concerto competitions, and then I overstretched my pinky finger. And

doctors would later tell me it was a career-ending injury that my dreams were over.

What do you say to a person who's dealing with that kind of destabilizing change? For the person who's in the

change? For the person who's in the throws of it, who cannot see beyond their pain, this is the technique that has completely transformed my life. It's

called Maya Shanker. Welcome to the Mel Robbins

Maya Shanker. Welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast.

Thank you so much for having me, Mel.

I am so excited. You came in here like a tornado. I can tell that you are ready

tornado. I can tell that you are ready to inspire and teach and motivate and you have been waiting to talk about this

topic. And the way I want to start is

topic. And the way I want to start is how could my life be different if I take everything you're about to teach me today about change, managing it,

creating it, surviving it, if I really take it to heart and I apply it to my life, how how's my life going to change?

I think we've all heard this mantra that while we can't control what happens to us, we can control our reaction to what happens. And if you're anything like me,

happens. And if you're anything like me, you're like, "Okay, yeah, that sounds good, but how the heck do I actually do that?" Right? It's not like there's some

that?" Right? It's not like there's some sort of switch in my brain that I can flip on that's suddenly going to make me feel more peaceful or more enlightened or more curious, right? If there's one

thing that I've learned over the years, it's that we can change our relationship with change. We can come to see the

with change. We can come to see the hardest moments in our lives not just as something to survive, but as an opportunity to reimagine who we are, to

unlock our full potential. Uh-huh. To

discover extraordinary things about ourselves and what we're capable of. And

all of that surfaces in the throws of a big disruption. But when you're facing

big disruption. But when you're facing it, you don't want to be in it.

Exactly.

And you're saying that you're going to teach us how to change the way we relate to those moments as we're going through them.

I'm coming at all of this as someone who hates change. I feel so uncomfortable by

hates change. I feel so uncomfortable by change and I feel like it brings out the worst of my anxieties. And so the reason why I've been so heartened to realize

this from the research and all the interviews I've done is because I needed to change my relationship with change.

And so I'm here to tell everyone listening, if I could do it, I promise you you can do it, too. You host a podcast about change. Now you're the

author of a book about how to reinvent yourself when life takes a turn. But

this all started because of a need for you to reinvent yourself, your identity, your future, all of it. So, I want to go back to the

beginning, okay?

And let's talk about what happened.

We're going to have to take the time machine back to little Maya, age six.

Um, that's when I started playing the violin.

Okay.

And Mel, I fell in love with it immediately.

From the moment you picked it up.

Absolutely. So my grandmother in India had played the violin as a hobby growing up. And I remember one day my mom went

up. And I remember one day my mom went up to her attic and brought down her dusty violin that she had brought with her when she immigrated from India to the US. And she opened the case and it

the US. And she opened the case and it was like magic. I remember very quickly asking my mom, "Okay, can you get me like a pint-sized violin, little little version of this?" And my parents had to

ask me to do a lot of things, but they never, for whatever reason, had to ask me to practice. So, I would just run home from the bus stop after school. I

would practice for hours. And I remember when I was around nine years old, we were in New York City. I had my violin with me and we walked by the Giuliard

School of Music. Now, this was my dream school, okay? I mean, I would I would

school, okay? I mean, I would I would lay in bed at night and just imagine that one day I might be able to study there. And so my mom looks at me and she

there. And so my mom looks at me and she goes, "Why don't we just walk in to Julliard?"

to Julliard?" To Jiuliard.

You were nine.

I was nine. And I was like, "What are you talking about? We are not invited."

And she goes, "I mean, Maya, what's the worst thing that could happen?" And I I said to her, "Security guards, that's the worst thing that could happen." But

she was just fearless. And she's like, "We're going in." 30 minutes later, I'm auditioning for a Giuliard teacher on the spot.

Really?

Yes. He tells my mom afterwards, "I'm willing to take Maya on as a student this summer and to basically put her through a boot camp to try to get her ready for the Giuliard audition in

the fall." And I went to the summer

the fall." And I went to the summer camp. I was heads down. I really skilled

camp. I was heads down. I really skilled up technically. I got so much better in

up technically. I got so much better in that time period. And guess what? I got

into Giuliard in the fall. I was

studying at Giuliard. I was soloing with orchestras, winning conerto competitions. The renowned violinists

competitions. The renowned violinists Pearlman invited me to be his private student. And then I was studying at

student. And then I was studying at Pearlman's music program one summer. I

was 15 years old. And

I overstretched my finger on a single note. I overstretched my pinky finger

note. I overstretched my pinky finger playing this very challenging technical piece. And I heard a popping sound. And

piece. And I heard a popping sound. And

it turned out that I had damaged tendons in my hand. And doctors would later tell me that it it was a career-ending injury

that my dreams were over.

What is that like to hear at the age of 15?

I was in denial. I think like most people listening would be, right? I was

also I was in a rebellious mode. So I also didn't want to listen to them, right? I

kept playing and practicing through pain. I was taking excessive

pain. I was taking excessive anti-inflammatories. I was doing every

anti-inflammatories. I was doing every physical therapy exercise in the book, every possible treatment. I ended up getting surgery. That didn't work.

getting surgery. That didn't work.

Finally, I had to face the facts. But it

was very, very hard. And I think I think grief is actually the best way to describe what my emotional state was like because there was something so curious about my

grief when I think back to it. I wasn't

just grieving the loss of the instrument.

I was grieving the loss of myself at this much more fundamental level. We

don't know sometimes how much something has come to define who we are until we lose it and we feel so unmed and so disoriented and like there's nothing that makes us special anymore. And

what's relatable about that story is that you don't have to be a violinist to understand that when you go through a

divorce or you get fired from a job or you get booted from the team that you used to be on or you even move from the

neighborhood to a new town.

Yeah.

that that change really makes you question who am I? What

do I want? Like even if you think you know what you want, you you pick a certain major or you go into a certain profession and you start doing it and you're like, do I really want to be a

lawyer? Do I really want to be a nurse?

lawyer? Do I really want to be a nurse?

Like this is this really is this really?

And and you start to question yourself because that's the thing about self-identities. They project us into

self-identities. They project us into the future. So every future I had

the future. So every future I had imagined for myself had now disappeared from view. But what we can do is we can

from view. But what we can do is we can expand our selfidentity so that it is more robust in the face of change. Now

what do I mean by that? My advice is to define yourself not just by what you do but by you do it. Okay. So let me ask that question for the violin. If I

stripped away all the superficial features of playing music, what was the essence of my passion? What

drove me towards the instrument? It was

a love of human connection.

I loved connecting with people through my music. I love seeing them smile. I

my music. I love seeing them smile. I

love seeing them feel things as a result of what I was producing.

Guess what? There were other outlets through which I could express that love of human connection. I'm expressing it right now in this conversation with you and your listeners.

What do you say to a person who's dealing with that kind of destabilizing

change? Whether you're

change? Whether you're going through a divorce, you have a lifealtering diagnosis, you just lost somebody that you love and they're

having trouble seeing beyond just the pain of this moment.

Yeah. First of all, I feel you.

It is a deeply painful and disorienting process. There is so much research

process. There is so much research showing why change is so scary. I mean

for one it is filled with so much uncertainty and our brains are not wired to like uncertainty. I think another reason why change is is so hard is that

at the end of the day and I know you and I share this in common. We like having a firm grip of the steering wheel. We like

believing that we are dictating how our lives turn out. And most of us humans fall prey to what's called the illusion of control where we wildly overestimate the degree to which we're actually in

the driver's seat. And so for the person who's in the throws of it right now who cannot see beyond their pain,

I want to share a personal story. Um

the last six or seven years have been really tough uh for my husband and me.

So, we have been trying to start a family. We've

been unsuccessful. We've had to navigate so many disappointments and obstacles and heartbreaks. And dealing with

and heartbreaks. And dealing with pregnancy losses has left me reeling because for someone who loves control, for someone who loves outworking every challenge she faces, guess what? No such

thing as outworking fertility stuff. So,

we had found out um that we lost identical twin girls with our surrogate And I was beside myself. I was in our

bedroom, covers over my head and sobbing. And my husband comes in,

sobbing. And my husband comes in, husband Jimmy, and he says, "Let's just do a quick gratitude exercise." And I

was like, "Hell no." Okay. How dare you?

You take your Instagram BS, go into the corner with your toxic positivity, and I'm gonna stay under the covers and sulk because that is my reality right now.

PS, I still love you. Okay, but I was so pissed. So anyway, finally, he kind of

pissed. So anyway, finally, he kind of wears me down. I'm like, you know what?

I'm going to do this damn thing just to get him off my case. All right, so I start to rattle off a couple things. I'm

like well I guess I'm really grateful that I get to be an aunt to my six nieces and nephews. I love that I've gotten to work

nephews. I love that I've gotten to work with the same people for like over a decade and we still love working together. It's the greatest source of

together. It's the greatest source of pride that the people I worked with in the White House still work with me today. So, I start to do this and the

today. So, I start to do this and the list just pours out of me and I swear to God, something magical happened in that

moment.

I had been so single-mindedly focused on becoming a mom that I had developed tunnel vision and I had completely forgotten about how

otherwise rich and multi-dimensional my life was.

And in engaging in this practice, by the way, it's called a self-affirmation exercise. My husband, who's a software

exercise. My husband, who's a software engineer, didn't know that that was what he was doing, but it basically just involves taking a few minutes to write down everything that gives your life meaning, every identity that makes you

feel valuable that is not been threatened by the change. And so, I just want to remind everyone who is listening, the pain is real. It will

persist.

There are no instant fixes. But these

small shifts in perspective can radically change your orientation as you look at yourself and as you look at the world around you.

I just want to say to you if you're listening or watching on YouTube and you had this like bristle for a moment like I did like Maya did when her husband with the best of intentions tried this.

There are going to be those moments in life where you're not only going to be under the sheets for a day. You might be there for a week

or a month. You might need to process things for a year or a couple and that's okay.

What I want you to know is wherever you are, the moment that you're ready to pull the sheets down, you're ready to start moving forward through this change

that you do not want, that is not fair, that is just horrible to have to process and accept. that the tools are there as

and accept. that the tools are there as frameworks to help guide you as you move forward.

Yeah.

One of the things I wanted to add to this is that if you're processing a loss and you're going through the experience of grief

that it takes a lot of time to come to terms with the loss that you have. And

we had this extraordinary expert on grief, David Kesler, on the podcast. And

he shared this statistic that I found to be so empowering that the average time period when somebody seeks support after

losing a loved one is between five and 10 years. And so if you've been living

10 years. And so if you've been living with grief for a while, what David Kessler says is the moment that you're

ready to seek help is the perfect time.

You know, in your research, Dr. Shunker, you say that people are not great at predicting how change is actually going

to impact them. Can you explain?

Yeah. So, we are notoriously bad affective forecasters. All that means is

affective forecasters. All that means is that we are so bad at predicting how we are going to feel about events in the future.

Okay, this is really important for us to know.

It is.

We overestimate how bad the bad things are going to be.

Mhm.

And we also overestimate how good the good things are going to be. I lost my job, for example.

Yes.

It's going to completely ruin me and I will never regain the current happiness level I have. And then I also think if I get this promotion, I'm going to be happy forever. But

actually, we just revert right back down to what's called our happiness set point.

Okay? So whether it's a loss or it's a gain, after you experience the emotion of the loss or the gain, you tend to settle back to where you used to be.

Yeah. Or at a minimum, it's never as bad or as good as we thought it was going to be.

Now, why is it important to know that?

The reason it's important to know that is because at the outset of a change when we're feeling so daunted by our ability to get through it, we want to

have that reassurance that it's actually never going to be as bad as we think.

But one of the biggest reasons why we get it wrong is that we forget that we too will change as a result of the experience.

We are a work in progress and we forget that as the world is changing around us and as a change is happening to us, it is also creating lasting change within

us.

I just saw what you were talking about that you with the person you are in this moment, you think you can predict how you're going to feel and who you're

going to be in a future moment. But the

truth is the person that you are right now will not be present for the future moment.

Exactly.

Because you are going to have changed based on what's happening to you next.

100%. We somehow think that the version that we are today is like the is the final version, the fully enlightened version of Maya. But here's the thing, we become different people on the other

side of change. And so when you are feeling so scared and daunted, everyone listening right now who is afraid of a change that is they're currently navigating or they're going to have to

navigate in the future and they think I can't possibly get through this. The

right question is not how am I going to get through this. It's how will I with new abilities and perspectives and values and capabilities how will that

new version of me navigate this change?

There is something so reassuring in that message because time and time again, everyone I talk to says, you know, I wouldn't have willed this negative change to happen, but damn, am I

grateful for the person I became as a result of it.

I am so different than I was before.

What is identity foreclosure?

So, identity foreclosure is something I actually experienced as a little kid. I

didn't have a name for it, of course.

Um, but it's when we anchor our identity to something prematurely without having explored all other available options.

So, when it came to the violin, I just kind of attached myself to that moving train and I jumped on it and I was just like off to the races. Okay.

I'm going to be a concert violinist.

That's my identity.

Yeah.

Okay. Okay. And what that what identity for foreclosure does is that it prevents us from more consciously building these multifaceted identities. We inherit

multifaceted identities. We inherit labels and identities from our families, from our teachers, from our friends, from our communities, but we aren't always interrogating what

they are or making proactive choices that help expand them.

I have a friend who always wanted to get married.

Yeah.

And hasn't found the person.

Yep. Not yet. And yet it's this thing that they wrestle with.

And how do you handle that experience when you it's something you've thought about for so long, you know?

Yeah.

And it hasn't happened yet.

One of the topics that I explore in the book is called possible selves.

And I like that.

And here's the basic premise. Okay. So

all the time we are generating possible selves as we go about our lives. So when

your friend is thinking about one day wanting to be married, she's generating a possible self.

Yes.

When Mel decided, hey, you know what? I

think I should do a podcast, she was imagining a possible self. When I, as a teenager, learned that she could no longer play the violin and had to figure out how to find some way to reinvent herself, she too was generating a

possible self. Yes.

possible self. Yes.

And so possible selves come into three buckets. There's hope for selves. Uhhuh.

buckets. There's hope for selves. Uhhuh.

Those reflect our dreams of what we hope will happen in the future.

Feared selves reflect our anxieties and our worries about what might happen in the future. And then expected selves

the future. And then expected selves reflect what is just most likely to happen, good or bad.

So yes, I could tell you right now, Mel, I'd really love to become the next Taylor Swift. Too bad. Don't know how to

Taylor Swift. Too bad. Don't know how to sing. Don't know how to write songs. and

sing. Don't know how to write songs. and

probably in 5 years I'm still going to be a cognitive scientist. Right? So

that's my expected self. Okay. So what

can happen when a big change comes our way is that all of these doors close that we were hoping would stay open and now or that you expected

that we expected or that you feared.

Now a bunch of doors also open that we fear.

I never thought that my life could maybe turn out this like I didn't I don't want that door to open. That door is so scary. I don't like what that future

scary. I don't like what that future looks like.

And what I've learned from my research is that when it comes to imagining possible selves, we can sometimes have an overly

constrained imagination for what is possible for us based on stereotypes, experiences, social norms,

you name it. How many times have we been thrust into a new environment? All of a sudden, I'm a caregiver. All of a sudden, I'm a chronically ill person.

All of a sudden, I'm jobless.

And we've been so afraid about who we might become. And one thing that I am so

might become. And one thing that I am so eager to spread is, well, in those moments of inflection, how can we conjure up more promising, positive possible selves than we

previously imagined?

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I want to hover for just a second on this identity foreclosure thing. And I'd

like to focus on the experience of when you have something when you're young

that then you can no longer do. And I'm

just curious, is there any research or any specific advice that you have to somebody who was like the star athlete

and now all of a sudden they don't have sports or who was the star math student.

Yes.

And now they're in the corporate world and they're just lost. Like it's sort of that. Can you talk a little bit about

that. Can you talk a little bit about this because Yes. Just because they've lost the

Yes. Just because they've lost the ability to do that thing, just because they're not the star athlete anymore, just because they're not the top math student, doesn't mean that all of the

soft and hard skills that they built, all the experiences they had, all the wisdom and knowledge they acrewed as a result of doing those things can't serve

them meaningfully in what comes next.

So, we feel like we lost everything. But

actually, it turns out when it comes to the violin, guess what? I'm still

holding on to all that grit. Guess what

else? I'm using that fearlessness. Going

on stage as a little kid performing in front of thousands of people that's helping me today in my roles that I have right as a writer, podcaster, cognitive

scientist. And so, the relevant question

scientist. And so, the relevant question to ask themselves when they're no longer that math student or that star soccer player is, who else can this person be?

You apply the worth to the label.

Exactly.

And when the label is gone, an identity foreclosure happens.

We make the mistake of thinking that all of the value that was underneath the surface is gone, too.

That's exactly right.

I want to read to you uh from chapter 3 of your book. Most of us know what it's like to get caught in a negative mental spiral. Any number of things can trigger

spiral. Any number of things can trigger these unrelenting, suffocating loops.

But the catalyst is typically a change in our lives. Our new anxieties, regrets, and uncertainties can take on a life of their own and become a bigger challenge to deal with than the change

itself. These thoughts become like mind

itself. These thoughts become like mind worms nestling in our psyches, hijacking our attention and stoking our biggest fears. What's wrong with me? How could I

fears. What's wrong with me? How could I not have seen this coming? How could

they do that to me? what's going to happen.

Let's talk about what to do when you are stuck in a mental spiral.

So, we talked about how our brains aren't wired to like uncertainty.

We want what's called cognitive closure.

Cognitive closure.

Yes.

What is that?

What that means is we want black and white answers. Want clear, definitive

white answers. Want clear, definitive answers.

Yeah. I want the possible self that I'm hoping for and the possible self that I expected. I don't want any of this stuff

expected. I don't want any of this stuff in between.

Exactly. But guess what? When a big change happens and we climb out from the rubble, there's no black and white. It's

all gray. And that makes us feel so much anxiety.

Certainly, it makes me feel anxiety. I

don't like being out of control. And

when you're in the throws of change, all you feel is out of control. So, what

does our mind do?

I don't know. Well, it starts spiraling.

But why does it do that? It's so not helpful.

Exactly. It starts spiraling because it's trying to regain control in the way that it knows how, which is we think maybe I can outthink this problem, but it's fool's gold. You think if I could

just figure out, let's say you're you're navigating a breakup. If I could just figure out why he stopped loving me, then I can finally move on and enter another relationship. If I can just

another relationship. If I can just figure out all the ways that I can keep my family safe, then I can actually move on peacefully. If I can analyze every

on peacefully. If I can analyze every mistake I've made in the past and every regret I possibly have, then I'll never make those regrets in the future. So, we

have this false sense that we're actually making progress on the problems and challenges we're facing, but we're actually just looping over the same negative thoughts over and over again

because a lot of questions in life don't actually have answers.

But our brains, they don't they haven't caught up to that wisdom yet.

So, you've got all these tools. God, do

we need this? Let's start with the first one. Cognitive reappraisal. What is

one. Cognitive reappraisal. What is

that?

Cognitive reappraisal is again one of those fancy pants terms that doesn't need to be fancy, which simply means that we interpret a situation differently in order to alter the

emotional impact it has on us.

Okay. So, let me try to put that in a way that I would understand.

you are going to gaslight yourself or you're going to put nicer icing on the cake in order to get you to direct yourself at the expected or the hoped and not the fear. Is that

what you're doing? What are you doing?

You're going to change the way you think about a situation. You have a you have a gut reaction to your being a certain way or a situation unfolding in a certain way.

Yes.

And you're going to deliberately change your interpretation.

Would this be an example of one? because

I talked to somebody who uh on this podcast who is an expert in grief and he said something that I will never ever

ever forget which is if you are in a spiral around what ifs. What if? What if? What

if? What if this? What if that? And I

actually use this on the phone with my mom this morning because they had a friend who died over the weekend very very suddenly. and I shared this little

very suddenly. and I shared this little reframe with her. So, David Kesler mom just did an episode with us and he

suggests that you say even if even if even if and I find I found it to be so powerful.

Yeah.

Because if the person is gone, there is nothing that brings them back.

And all of the worrying that we're doing, which is trying to make sense of it, which is super super super normal, doesn't actually do anything, but make

you feel this false sense like there could have been something. And so the even if I thought was really powerful and I could see how you could use even if in a

breakup, even if I did this, even if I did that, even if I did the other thing. Mhm.

Is that an example of what you're talking about?

You're refraraming a situation and it's altering the way you feel about it.

100%.

That's reappraisal.

Yeah. It doesn't mean that it wasn't fair. It doesn't mean that it

fair. It doesn't mean that it absolutely all the facts are still all the facts are still doesn't mean you're not going to grieve or anything, but

that sort of bouncing from what I wanted and what I hoped and what I expected. Oh

my god, my fear and now I can't handle it.

and the need to kind of land the plane and feel okay and in control like to me.

Okay, great. I thought that's what that was.

Yes.

You have another one that you reference which is mental time travel.

Yes. So, our brains have a remarkable ability to go into the past and into the future. And this can be an asset to us

future. And this can be an asset to us when we are navigating a really frustrating mental spiral. You've

actually taught us a lot about that because you've taught us that we can look back at the past and go, "Well, I'm not that person anymore." Like I look at the college version of myself, I'm like,

"That was peak dysfunction, Mel."

Uh, I'm not that person anymore. Thank

God.

And you've also said that this possible the possible selves are a way that you project into the future. Yes.

So, you've proven that to us.

Yes. So, and it's if there's a specific topic to your rumination, what you can do is you can travel into the future and say, "So, Maya 3 in the morning wakes up

ruminating right?

What I need to do in that moment as I'm replaying this extremely frustrating encounter, let's say with a co-orker, right? Or let's say with a receptionist

right? Or let's say with a receptionist or whatever it is, okay, I ask myself, how am I going to feel about this 5 hours from now, 5 days from now, and 5 years from now?" And what

that quick mental exercise does, it's just 5 seconds of thinking, is it reminds you that your current situation is transient and the problem, your current preoccupation is probably going

to feel less significant to you moving forward. And what I've done in those

forward. And what I've done in those moments where I feel like I am still going to be worried in whatever 5 years is to mine my past and surface moments

in which I was similarly convinced that I was going to be stuck in this mental spiral indefinitely but I turned out to be wrong or moments where I showed resilience in

the face of adversity that I did not think I had. And so we can leverage we can go into the past. We can also go in the past by the way when we're scared of what's happening globally and we can say look it's not the first time humanity

has faced these sorts of challenges that we're going through right now but a combination of self-sacrifice and collective action led us to a better spot. So this is a mental time travel is

spot. So this is a mental time travel is a wonderfully flexible helpful tool and and here's the other thing Mel not everyone has the ability to just like get on a jet and be like okay I'm going

to reinvent myself by like moving to another country and I'm going to quit my job and it's like no most of us have to keep our jobs. Okay. And most of us have to live in the homes or apartments that we're currently in.

And so my goal was to figure out, well, how can we have that reinvention happen in here?

And in here, by the way, if you're listening, she's pointing to her brain.

Yeah. To my brain.

This is a really important note that reinvention.

We think about it and we think about the thing that you put on your vision board.

We think about the future that you're going to cast forward that you can visualize and all the physical stuff and what it's going to look like. You're

saying that true reinvention when it comes to yourself and moments of change happens internally in your own mind.

That's exactly right. Because we cannot control in fact what happens to us. That

is the nature of let them.

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most. Visit amika.com and get a quote today. Visual selfdistancing. What is

today. Visual selfdistancing. What is

that?

Yeah. So, what we're trying to do with this tool is just create as much psychological distance as we can between us and the problem we're trying to solve.

Okay?

Because often times when we're immersed in it, we have all of these heated emotions and we're feeling pissed off or feeling frustrated or we're feeling a lot of regret. Let's use an example. A lot of

regret. Let's use an example. A lot of people are losing their jobs right now.

Yes. And so let's use this tool of visual selfdistancing to help somebody who's in a situation where they have just lost their job.

Yep.

And now they feel like a loser.

Yep.

And now they feel flatfooted because of all of the change in the ways that people are working.

How do I use this to get out of that negative self-t talk? So visual

self-distancing means taking a bird's eye view on your problems. Okay?

Because here's the thing. If you're a first person narrator of your own situation, here's what you're saying after.

What does that sound like?

I'm a loser.

Y I have no future.

I'm pathetic. No one's going to respect me anymore.

I don't love myself. How could anyone ever love me?

I'm too old. I can't figure this out.

I've screwed up my career.

Yeah. Also, I'm so intimidated by having to learn this new set of skills. Yes.

What am I going to do? That's what the selft talk version looks like and why it turns negative so quickly because at the end of the day most people have the least amount of compassion for themselves.

True.

That's certainly me. I have so much compassion for other people. I reserve

Mel roughly 2% for myself. Okay. So, I

am incredibly harsh on myself. I'm super

self-critical and I'm going to be the first person to be like, I screwed up.

Now, it makes for a really nice marriage because my husband and I are both like this. So, typically we end up being

this. So, typically we end up being like, I mess up. No, I messed up. But

there's other scenarios where being like that is not healthy. It's not great for your positive talk. Okay? And so, when you take a bird's eye view, when you essentially coach yourself like you

would a friend, you're bringing self-compassion to the table.

You wouldn't go to your friend and be like, "Hey, guess what, Maya? You're a

loser. You're pathetic."

Okay.

No. How you you have no future ahead of you. You would never say that to me

you. You would never say that to me ever.

You would be productive. You would try to correct some some of my misunderstandings about myself. You

would poke holes in my narratives because you would see things more objectively without that cloud of emotions. So rather than saying, "I need

emotions. So rather than saying, "I need to get my stuff together," you say, "Maya, you need to get your stuff together." Ooh,

together." Ooh, okay. That small little It sounds like a

okay. That small little It sounds like a little gimmick, but it is so effective and across domains and intensity of emotions. It is one of the most powerful

emotions. It is one of the most powerful tools. You've changed the focus from

tools. You've changed the focus from feeling like you're the problem to reminding yourself that this is a universal problem that the collective you all shares.

Well, you know what's interesting is when you said, "Maya, you got to pull it together."

together." Yeah.

Or Mel, stop complaining about this and sign up for the tutorial online and lean into this. Mel, start picking up the phone

this. Mel, start picking up the phone and just calling friends and telling them that you got laid off and you know, you would really appreciate a chance to just talk about, you know, what they think

you should do next. Like, Mel, pull your big girl panties on. That's what my mom always used to say. And work on that resume. Like, get back out there. Ask

resume. Like, get back out there. Ask

them.

That's what you would tell a friend.

Correct. But what's interesting is when you use your own name, I had this experience when you said Maya. What did

you say to yourself? Maya. I tried to use a PC term. It was get your stuff together.

Maya, come on. You got to pull yourself together. I could almost feel like there

together. I could almost feel like there was a little coach.

Yeah.

Standing behind you going, "Come on now.

Come on now." You were outside of yourself.

Exactly.

Now you say distraction can be a tool to get out of the past and this negative self-t talk. And I need to hear more about this because distraction

is a very negative thing in the world right now.

Yes. I think there is a really harmful popular narrative that if we don't persistently and directly confront our negative emotions after some negative change happens in our lives, those

emotions are going to rear their ugly head with greater vengeance down the line. The research actually shows that

line. The research actually shows that the story is much more complex.

Distraction is a very helpful, productive tool for a lot of people. If

you find that watching Netflix, having a conversation with a friend, going on a run is bringing you joy on any given day, and you don't feel like those negative emotions are trying to like

force their way through and you're actively suppressing them, chances are it's a really good tool for you to be using. And so what I what I hate about

using. And so what I what I hate about that narrative, Mel, is that I don't want people to feel both the burden of their grief or the challenge they're going through and then an additional

burden that the techniques they're using aren't the right way to get through their trauma or whatever negative situation they're going through. There

is actually no right way. Individual

differences play a massive role. So if

distractions working for you, you do you. Another thing that's fairly easy to

you. Another thing that's fairly easy to do is to read fiction.

H So researchers call fiction an identity laboratory because what you're able to do when you're reading fiction is to freely explore and try on for fit, if

you will, new identities. You can

anticipate how you would respond at different junctures. You can take risks

different junctures. You can take risks that you would never take in normal life, right? You can um you can

life, right? You can um you can experiment with yourself. It's kind of like a playground and it's a totally psychologically safe space.

And so we as readers, we tend to blend our identities with the characters that we're reading. So that's one way to

we're reading. So that's one way to explore who else we can become. Another

way is actually um this was just advice my dad gave me when I was at that juncture with the violin. So I just lost the ability to play. I was feeling down in the dumps, right?

Identity foreclosure, baby. my possible

dreams, my who I expected, gone, gone. It's the summer before college. I

gone. It's the summer before college. I

thought I was going to major in music performance. Now I have no idea what my

performance. Now I have no idea what my major is going to be, right? Um and my dad looked at me and he was like, "You've been wearing blinders for 10 years. Your job this summer, in addition

years. Your job this summer, in addition to doing your job that you're working this summer, is to expose yourself to as

many ideas and worldviews as you possibly can. So by that I mean watch

possibly can. So by that I mean watch documentaries, read books, watch TV, talk to people about their experiences, talk to their parents about their

experiences. But importantly, and this

experiences. But importantly, and this was the key part, Mel, you need to go on this quest with no end goal in mind.

Because if you're trying desperately to figure out what's my major going to be, you're not going to be as exploratory as you should, right? You're going to preemptively close doors because you

don't see them as possible.

What about when you choose to make the change?

Yes.

Okay. So, you know, because oftentimes you think it's going to be good.

Yes.

But is there value in creating change in your own life even, you know, though it's going to feel uncomfortable and you're going to be uncertain?

I mean, discomfort is the key to unlocking our brain's potential. That's

what the neuroscience shows. So, we have this remarkable ability for neuroplasticity, which basically just means our brain can rewire itself in response to our experiences and the

challenges we put in front of us. And

so, every time we put ourselves into an uncomfortable situation, we are boosting our brain. Here's the great thing

our brain. Here's the great thing though. When we are in these positions

though. When we are in these positions where we're learning something new, when we're having to challenge ourselves because we're introducing change into our lives, we fail a lot. Failure is

uncomfortable. But what failure does is it releases this powerful cocktail of neurochemicals that signal to the brain, hey, something's not working. The current

setup is not serving me. I have to rewire things in order to get them right next time.

And so that is how we tap into this amazing neuroplasticity and keep ourselves sharp as long as we possibly can. So, what do you say to the person

can. So, what do you say to the person listening who who may be holding themselves back? They're in a pattern.

themselves back? They're in a pattern.

They are looking at the doors.

They see who they hope to become.

They know who they kind of expect to become, especially if they don't make this change.

Yes.

Because if you're thinking about looking for a job, but you're not doing anything, you can expect to stay at that job. If you're thinking about running

job. If you're thinking about running the marathon, but you never actually buy the sneakers, you can expect to never run the marathon.

Correct.

They're staring at the fear door thinking, "Oh, but what if this? What if

that?" So, they are in that moment where you are actively waiting.

You're waiting for change while you're raising a family. You're caring for your parents. You're finishing school. You're

parents. You're finishing school. You're

in between jobs. There's a thing you want to do, but you just are waiting for the right time.

Yep.

What would you say?

No action is too small.

You can start right now. You do not need to wait until the kids leave the nest.

You do not need to wait until you are no longer a caregiver.

Because here's the thing. Let's say that your goal is to start a blog or like, "Yeah, you know what? Today I woke up. I

I really want to write a Substack because uh let's say you really care about building community. All you have to do is write for one minute a day."

And the reason is that the difference between zero minutes and one minute is seismic.

Because when it's zero minutes, nothing.

When it's one minute, you're a writer.

You've embodied this identity and you're going to build towards it and it's going to be self-reinforcing and it's going to lead to this virtuous cycle where over

time you start to believe it too. So, I

would tell people to start now. It can

be the smallest little action. Okay?

Okay, maybe it's it's just one little step you take in the direction of that possible future self. The other thing I want to share is that there are really good techniques from science that can

help drive motivation when we need it most.

Okay, so the first is to break really big, daunting goals into bite-sized bits that feel much more manageable and where we can feel a sense of accomplishment in

the short term. And the other reason why it's so important to break the big goal into the small goals is that we want to avoid what's called the middle problem.

What's the middle problem?

So the middle problem refers to the idea that we don't have stable amounts of motivation over the course of pursuing a goal. We get a huge boost in the

goal. We get a huge boost in the beginning. So this is like New Year's

beginning. So this is like New Year's Day, right? We're like, "Oh my god, I'm

Day, right? We're like, "Oh my god, I'm ready to go. Where is my gym shoes? I'm

off, you know, I'm going to go on the elliptical or the treadmill or whatever it is." Okay? And then we get a huge

it is." Okay? And then we get a huge burst of motivation at the end because now we're really close to achieving the goal. So we're like, "Oh, it's like

goal. So we're like, "Oh, it's like think of a marathon. You're in the final stretch. You actually speed up a little

stretch. You actually speed up a little bit because you're so excited to almost be there." But we actually get a lull in

be there." But we actually get a lull in motivation in the middle.

So what breaking a big goal into smaller goals does is that it reduces the continuous length of that middle stretch. If you have a year-long goal,

stretch. If you have a year-long goal, that middle is three months where you have that drop in motivation and you're likely to just fall off the wagon. all

together. If you have a week-l long goal, now your middle is just over, you know, it's like two and a half days or something right?

So now you have a much smaller time frame in which you get that, oh, I don't want to do this, but okay, you know what? I'm right back into it as I'm

what? I'm right back into it as I'm getting towards the end of the week.

Okay, so that's the first thing, right?

Break the big goals into the small into smaller units. The second

smaller units. The second and this is the technique that has completely transformed my life. It's

called temptation bundling. Okay,

is developed by my friend Katie Milkman.

You just have to do the hard thing that is required for you to achieve your possible self with an immediately rewarding activity. So something that is

rewarding activity. So something that is immediately delightful is a great reward.

But importantly, you have to deny yourself access to that little fun treat in all other realms of life. So here's

how I've applied it to my life.

Okay, I only allow myself to listen to Taylor Swift's new albums when I'm working out.

I love temptation bundling. I love it.

Okay, changed my life. Okay, third one.

We have a funny quirk in the way that our brains form memories and how we look back at an experience.

Okay, this is my favorite insight about the brain. When I learned this in college, I

brain. When I learned this in college, I thought I need to be a cognitive scientist. Okay, it's called the peak

scientist. Okay, it's called the peak end rule. When we look back at an

end rule. When we look back at an experience, we don't give every moment of that experience equal weight in our memories. We overvalue the peak of the

memories. We overvalue the peak of the experience, positive or negative, just the most emotionally potent moment that we went through.

And then we assign a lot of weight to the end of the experience. Hence the

peak end rule.

Now, what does this mean in practice?

I don't know.

It means we can't really control the peak. That's out of our control. Right?

peak. That's out of our control. Right?

If I'm like in a diff like I've been in these difficult writing sessions, I definitely can't control how negative or positive and also when it happens and if it's negative or positive. But what I can control is the end. So here's what

you do. You hack the system. You tack on

you do. You hack the system. You tack on something joyful to the end of a working session. Or you make the end of a

session. Or you make the end of a workout slightly less painful than it otherwise might have been in order to remember the experience more favorably so that you're more likely to return to

it.

So after I do my 30 minutes of writing, guess what? I have my favorite candy.

guess what? I have my favorite candy.

It's just like I have a little bowl sitting on my desk. I just eat a little coffee chew and I'm like, "Okay, it sounds so silly, but I swear to God, Mel, it works." Because I I think back

I'm like, "Oh, it wasn't so bad." And

you can do this like when you work out and you if let's say you don't like working out, you don't like how hard it is. End with a fun cool down stretch

is. End with a fun cool down stretch thing that's more relaxing, your brain will remember it more favorably. So the

peak end rule is something to keep in mind. If you have something that you

mind. If you have something that you feel like, I'm trudging through this again so hard, you can shape its end opportunistically to make it something you look back on more fondly.

I love that. So, Dr. Shunker, what do you want the person who's listening to know about what's possible for them if they change their relationship

to their future, to what's happening right now, and to the identity of who they think they are.

Yeah.

But who they could become.

Yeah. I think you will astound yourself by the person that you can become on the other side of change.

And I'm excited for you to go on this journey. I think your friend along the

journey. I think your friend along the way is going to be curiosity. I think we have to be so curious about ourselves to even witness the progress we've made or

to witness our own evolution. We have to study ourselves and to ask and interrogate what are my beliefs? How do

I see myself? How do I see the world?

Maybe these things aren't sacred immutable truths. Maybe I can revisit

immutable truths. Maybe I can revisit them. Maybe maybe there's a new version

them. Maybe maybe there's a new version of me that can exist who's better. And if you just know the right questions to ask and

the right tools, I'm so confident that you will get to the other side of change. So proud of who you've become.

change. So proud of who you've become.

One of my favorite things that that you said that I am never going to forget is that I don't have to worry about the future because I can stand in this

moment and trust that the future version of me will figure this all out. That

somehow it's going to make sense and that I because I'm in this moment I got to give myself a little bit more credit for how whatever it is that I'm going to go through is going to change me.

Yeah. into bet on your future.

You got to bet on your future self. What

a beautiful message.

Uh so, thank you.

Thank you so much.

You're welcome. And I want to thank you.

Thank you for taking the time to listen to this. There's so much change going on

to this. There's so much change going on right now. I loved the frameworks. The

right now. I loved the frameworks. The

frameworks were so helpful. I am so excited for you. I'm excited for the future you. And in case no one else

future you. And in case no one else tells you, I wanted to be sure to tell you that I love you and I believe in you and I believe in your ability to create a better life and everything that you

learn today about how you navigate this moment and how you believe in that future version of yourself and who you're going to become on the other side of what you're facing right now. That

will help you create a better life.

Period. All righty. I will see you in the very next episode. I'll welcome you in the moment you hit play. And thank

you for watching all the way to the end.

I really appreciate you being here. I

also love that you're sharing this with people in your life that may be going through a tough time or trying to navigate change. These tools are going

navigate change. These tools are going to help them do that. So, thank you for sharing. Thanks for hitting subscribe. I

sharing. Thanks for hitting subscribe. I

really appreciate you supporting us that way. And I know you're like, "All right,

way. And I know you're like, "All right, Mel, I'm all excited. What do I watch next?" I think you're going to love

next?" I think you're going to love this. And I'll be there to welcome you

this. And I'll be there to welcome you in the moment you hit play.