Try this at Home: Jesse Genet on OpenClaw Agents for Homeschool & How to Live Your Best AI Life

Hello and welcome back to the cognitive revolution. Today my guest is Jesse

revolution. Today my guest is Jesse Jana, former founder and CEO of YCbacked packaging company Lumi, who after having four kids since selling the company in

2021, has dedicated herself to homeschooling and is now using AI with a level of purpose and creativity that I think will genuinely inspire you to

reimagine what AI can do for your family and personal life. Importantly, while

Jesse does have a startup background, she has never been a software developer.

In fact, she'd never even opened a terminal until 6 months ago when she started playing with cloud code. And yet

today, she has built a team of five Open Claw agents, each running on their own Mac Mini, including Claire, who acts as her AI chief of staff, Sylvia, her homeschool curriculum planner, Cole, her

dedicated software developer and tech wiz, Theo, the content creator, and Finn the finance guy. Together as a team, they are collectively helping her take her homeschool to the next level while

also freeing up precious time to be present and engaged with her kids. In

this conversation, we cover Jesse's incredibly creative use cases, the mental model she uses to decide what to build and how to [clears throat] manage her AI team, her long-term aspiration for individual sovereignty over data,

and a number of surprising anecdotes and lessons learned. As a parent with three

lessons learned. As a parent with three young kids at home myself, I really loved learning about how she's using AIS to develop personalized versions of classic curricula, to equip her mother with lesson plans that blend her

interest with the children's learning goals, to analyze recordings of her kids' lessons and identify opportunities to address any weaknesses in their understanding. to create an inventory of

understanding. to create an inventory of the many educational tools she's purchased over time and integrate them into lesson plans and to allow the kids to watch highquality YouTube content

while ensuring that they don't descend into slob. And as someone who aims to

into slob. And as someone who aims to use AI to free myself from my desk in 2026, I was also particularly interested in the practicalities of how she's using Slack, voice notes, and cell phone

camera snapshots to streamline the process of delegation, as well as how she's giving her agents access to physical tools, including the printer and 3D printer in her home. Plus, why

she's building her own super app with the hope of consolidating communication credentials and file management in the future.

One of Jesse's most important and clarifying pieces of advice was to think of your AI agents as employees who will need proper documentation, onboarding, and role appropriate access to

information and tools, which she emphasizes should start small and gradually grow over time as best practices and trust are established.

While this was her philosophy from the beginning, she has nevertheless learned some lessons the hard way, including on day one of working with Clare when she confided to the AI that she'd been putting off responding to an important

email and soon thereafter discovered that Clare, having determined that the urgency of the situation was more important than Jesse's explicit instruction to never impersonate me, had

gone ahead and drafted and sent a reply on Jesse's behalf signed with her name.

Jesse did put Clare into readonly mode for a while after that. But perhaps the biggest lesson others should learn from her example is to maintain a playful, positive attitude, to take setbacks in stride, and to build guardrails that

allow you to experiment with an acceptable level of risk. These days,

her agents have their own credit card with a low limit, which she allows them to use to make purchases on her behalf.

And they are also autonomously managing her new Tik Tok account, which I do think has a real chance of blowing up.

Along the way, Jesse also explains the role that she hopes open source models and local inference will play in reducing cost, maintaining privacy in a world that's clearly headed toward mass surveillance, and avoiding dependence on

just a few companies. And we also get her take on the future of AI productization, what frontier model developers are likely to miss about AI's role in family life, what use a human

assistant would be to her today, and how all this might affect the labor market.

For me, this episode stands out as one of the most practically life-changing that we've ever done. Since recording,

I've started using Google's Nano Banana to create custom worksheets that specifically address concepts that my oldest son Ernie needs to master to advance his reading. And I've also used Puno to create an original song, which

turns my middle son's writing practice sessions into a sort of singalong. This

is without question just scratching the surface of what's possible, and Jesse keeps coming up with new stuff just about every single day. So, I absolutely encourage you to follow her on Twitter, Tik Tok, or wherever else her agents may

start posting her content. And even more importantly, I encourage you to adopt her approach of noticing those little moments of drudgery, friction, and new possibility in your daily life. And

getting in the habit of asking yourself how AI can save you time, untether you from your desk, and equip you to show up as the person that you most want to be.

For now, I hope you enjoy this inspiring preview of the role that AI agents can play in families with AI for homeschooling pioneer. Jesse Jana,

homeschooling pioneer. Jesse Jana, Jesse Jana, AI for homeschooling pioneer. Welcome to the cognitive

pioneer. Welcome to the cognitive revolution.

Awesome. So happy to be here.

I am excited for this conversation. I've

got three kids at home right now full-time. I'm not sure if that's going

full-time. I'm not sure if that's going to be a permanent condition for my family or not, but it's definitely the experience I'm living with on a day-to-day basis right now. And so, I'm really excited to learn from you and the

recent tear that you have been on in bringing AI at really frontier applications of AI to your day-to-day life as well. Maybe for starters, just

give us a little introduction on who you are. You do have a background in tech,

are. You do have a background in tech, but these days you're focused on family affairs. just help us understand where

affairs. just help us understand where you're coming from.

So, yeah, I I ran a um I I ran a startup for many years. Uh it was venture funded, went through YC in 2015, which makes me sound kind of old now.

[laughter] Um uh and so I so I have a tech background. I was the CEO of of that

background. I was the CEO of of that company, and I only share that because my co-founder was the was the technical co-founder. So, I'm someone who like ran

co-founder. So, I'm someone who like ran a tech company. I'm using air quotes only because what's wild to me is I opened terminal for the first time like six months ago. Like like I just can't even believe I got through the process

of running and selling a tech company and not doing some of this stuff myself.

So So that's my background. I've been at home. I have I just had my fourth uh

home. I have I just had my fourth uh fourth little baby. We have four kids, five and under. I became kind of obsessed with uh homeschool and education and like working on kind of creating a best best book education for

them. And that also predates my

them. And that also predates my obsession with OpenClaw and AI. But then

this merger, bam, like in the last, you know, several months, I've been like really deep in the rabbit hole playing with how I can use AI. And I started with Cloud Code a few months ago, like trying to make some custom apps and

stuff for myself, but then with the release of OpenClaw, I'm just like now I'm using that to like run my life. I

don't want to over exaggerate, but it's running my life. [laughter]

you want to maybe just tell us a little bit more about what your homeschool setup looks like. I think you have like sort of a community where you're working with a couple other families. What's

your role? What are your responsibilities? Um and then you can

responsibilities? Um and then you can start to lead into how AI is changing at all.

Totally. So we I think homeschool is this really big word and and and to me all it really means is that you're choosing for one reason or a million reasons to not send your kid to a

traditional school. That's kind of all

traditional school. That's kind of all it means. It's more the term means uh is

it means. It's more the term means uh is almost like a a negative like I'm not going to do this thing, but it doesn't really tell you what a family is doing.

Um they might be doing a really they might be using private tutors. They

might be uh doing pubs with other families. So what it means for us is we

families. So what it means for us is we have little kids. So they're they're like they would be preschool age. One of

them would be like going to kindergarten type age. And so it's a lot of homebased

type age. And so it's a lot of homebased education now where I'm actually the instructor, but also we do a pod with another um with two other families where I'm the core instructor for that as

well, although the other parents contribute in some really really fun ways. And so it's a mix. Every week is a

ways. And so it's a mix. Every week is a mix. Um, and I think that's part of what

mix. Um, and I think that's part of what makes it difficult to manage is that it's um, every week is this big adventure of like trying to teach a 2-year-old how to put their own pants

on. Um, [gasps] and then trying to teach

on. Um, [gasps] and then trying to teach a 5-year-old, you know, making sure a 5-year-old has reading skills and phonics skills and early math skills and things like this. So, um, and we do use like there's so many incredible tools

and we can we can talk about those. is

like I really like synthesis math and stuff, but even how do you how do you get your kid engaged with that when they barely know how to use a computer? So,

so it's it's it's a mishmash, but in general, what it means is I've decided to not enroll my kids somewhere. So, I

feel this really heavy responsibility to make sure they know stuff and that they're actually like, you know, on some kind of learning journey. And I have a

lot of the curriculums I've like fallen in love with through reading about about schooling, about education, about how families have done homeschooling for kind of generations past. But but that

information is in books. And so I think a constant struggle for me is getting that information out of books. And I

have like like this is one of my my faves, but it's like here it is. I need

to get all this out into my children's heads. And so trying to figure out that

heads. And so trying to figure out that balance is like represents more of what I'm working on like a daily basis.

I think one probably accurate conception of homeschooling, you tell me, but is simply that it's a ton of work. And

obviously that leads into how AI can help. And I know you're on a bit of a

help. And I know you're on a bit of a mission to encourage other people to do it or at least demonstrate that there's a lot of value in that can be achieved through homeschooling. How much work are

through homeschooling. How much work are you putting in on a daily weekly basis?

What is the breakdown of those hours?

And again, then another natural leadin to how the AI is making an impact for you.

Yeah. So, it is a lot of work. So, I I don't want I don't want to sugarcoat it, but I don't know how much more work it is than like parenting. I I I I do I do think that um on one hand, I don't want

to sugarcoat what it is to be responsible for your kids's education, but on the other hand, I I think from an hour's perspective, all parents, no matter what schooling choices they're making, are putting a tremendous amount

of time into their children and thinking about their kids and planning for them.

And so to me, homeschool is just kind of like dialing that up one more notch. And

so from a what I want to figure out is like, you know, what does their daily schedule look like? I have a little bit more responsibility for figuring out what their daily schedule looks like um than if I if I send them to school every

day. But but the workload I do feel like

day. But but the workload I do feel like I'm standing on the shoulders of giants.

Like many people before me have figured out like incredible methods for teaching children how to read or incredible methods for teaching children like how to step up in their skills in different

areas. And so what what is the most

areas. And so what what is the most frustrating type of work for me is spending my time trying to distill that knowledge into like a functional thing I

can go do with my four-year-old to to give them that lesson. And so that is to me where I'm trying to use AI like in the most surgical way because I don't I

don't want to spend my time in the conceptual on on my home school. I want

to spend my time with the children like actually doing stuff. So, it is it is a big time investment to to do homeschool, but but again, I I think parenting is a big time investment. Like, we've already

decided to have the kids. [laughter] So,

so like we're all in it together. Like,

we're all doing a lot of work, you know, with our kids. But but choosing to do all these lessons and stuff, I have to carve out my schedule to make sure I like one of my challenges just having so many kids to just to be like really

blunt. Um because I need to make sure

blunt. Um because I need to make sure that I'm ready to like context switch from going from like teaching a two-year-old something like how to pour water like without spilling it everywhere. Like that's like a lesson

everywhere. Like that's like a lesson we'll do. It's like sounds kind of basic

we'll do. It's like sounds kind of basic to teaching a 5-year-old like what's the best way to jump into explaining fractions or or something like that. So

that context switching is is the least functional time for me and and the area I'm pling to apply AI to the most.

You want to touch on some of the great resources that you've found? You

mentioned synthesis math. You showed the developing understanding of scientific method or whatever scientific understanding this book the uh yeah building uh fundamental foundations for

scientific understanding. It's it's just

scientific understanding. It's it's just such a cool curriculum that by the end of it your kids have like heard about gravity and heard about like why do we have seasons and why does an animal like what does it take for an animal survive

in the wild? Like just this like really comprehensive. So, so there's individual

comprehensive. So, so there's individual curriculums um that I've that I found and then there's philosophies that I'm that I think almost all modern parents have heard of like Montasauri. So,

Montasauri is really like not one curriculum. Like you don't just sit your

curriculum. Like you don't just sit your kid down and be like we're doing Montasauri now. Like that's it's a it's

Montasauri now. Like that's it's a it's a general like large philosophy of how to teach a child. But you can but there are lessons in a progression of Montasuri learning that are age

appropriate for each child for each subject. So you can teach a child like

subject. So you can teach a child like monastery you can use monatory methods to teach a child math for um you know for kindergarten math or first grade math. So this is where I'm using AI. So

math. So this is where I'm using AI. So

like instead of guessing at any of that I will actually say and like a lot of times I do this it means I'm making a voice note. This is a hypothetical voice

voice note. This is a hypothetical voice note. So I I will say I have a

note. So I I will say I have a four-year-old and 5-year-old. We're

doing monosuri math and I do I like to do two ma math lessons with them per week. Uh, and I need a progression. So,

week. Uh, and I need a progression. So,

if there's like, you know, if we're going to teach for, let's say, 35 weeks in a year, like taking some breaks and stuff, I need a progression of 70 lessons for the next 12 months that step

them like gradually up um, in their math skills, and by the end of it, I'd like them to be like scratching at first grade math or something, you know, from a leveling standpoint. So, I can This is

a lot of things to say. Like, that's a lot of um things to fold in. And so what I've noticed is that the best models now like the frontier models like Opus or

something can can gro that and can make a 70 lesson progression that follows exactly what I just mapped out. And then

I I know you saw this. I'll explain it.

I I took photos of all the different educational stuff I purchased for my kids like uh which I think also as parents every parent can relate. Like

you buy all these educational toys and all this stuff. So, I take pictures of all of that and I had my open claw make an inventory of all my supplies. So,

then go back to that 70 lesson um math curriculum that takes me and my four and 5-year-old for the next year. They then

my openclaw inserted supplies I own into the lessons so that I know what to pull out.

Okay, this like this is before this.

Okay, so this is what this is where I'm at now. I'm using these this stuff. two

at now. I'm using these this stuff. two

months ago, I would be like, "Okay, math. I have time for math lessons on

math. I have time for math lessons on Tuesdays and Thursdays." And I would just like go into this room where we do the homeschool. And I would be like,

the homeschool. And I would be like, "Okay, what were we doing last week? Oh

my gosh, addition. Let's do a little bit more audition." And I would just pull

more audition." And I would just pull out some stuff. It wasn't bad. Like, I

don't want to knock myself. Like, I

think that we were doing pretty okay, but it was nowhere near as methodical.

And children were kind of novelty seeeking machines in a way. I'm sure you know this. And so you're trying to

know this. And so you're trying to educate them. It's actually really like

educate them. It's actually really like handy to pull out a new thing each week and introduce one new concept or one new word. They want to learn stuff. So I

word. They want to learn stuff. So I

think there was too much repetition in my old way of doing it. Um whereas AI is helping me inject a lot of like newness into each lesson without me just like spending my nights like planning this

out.

Okay, so that's amazing. I want to take some time to talk about the setup and these use cases. There's a bunch more where that inventory trick came from. Um

maybe introduce us to I understand there are there might even be more now since the last video, but last I saw there was five named open claws. So take us

through the family of open claws.

So there are currently still five open claws. And I do have I do have my little

claws. And I do have I do have my little uh my little friends. They're right

here. Okay. [laughter]

And I do have them boxed on individual machines. And this is not necessary.

machines. And this is not necessary.

There's a lot of people are doing all sorts of approaches. There's no one right way to handle any of this. But

I'll explain why I did it the way that I did it. So five personalities.

did it. So five personalities.

One is homeschool related. Her name is Sylvie. Okay. She's just like her

Sylvie. Okay. She's just like her personality is just to be like the most caring, creative, like thoughtful education planner that ever lived, but she doesn't live. Um, so [laughter]

so she she's she's open class Sylvie.

She plans all my homeschool curriculum.

She communicates. She sends me this use these useful digests in the morning about my lessons that I'm going to teach. Um, I can just like voice note

teach. Um, I can just like voice note her and be like, I need to know what to pull out for this. And she texts back really promptly and stuff like that.

Claire was the first one I spawned.

Claire is more of like an EA. So that

you know I think when you hear about OpenClaw and you download it, people are talking about all these assistant use cases and stuff. So that was like the first thing. I think ironically

first thing. I think ironically making an assistant is much harder than making a purpose-built uh open claw for

one like one goal like one role. So I do think uh when I see people struggling online like making an assistant does an assistant is supposed to know your whole life. they're supposed to like

life. they're supposed to like understand so many things about your goals and your life and your diet and maybe help you order groceries and all this stuff. That's harder. So, it's much

this stuff. That's harder. So, it's much easier to set up Sylvia, for instance, just have her totally tunnel focus on homeschool stuff than it was to set up Claire who does who's like a general

assistant. Um, then I've got Finn who

assistant. Um, then I've got Finn who does accounting and finance. He's the

least built out because I am being the most cautious about that from a security standpoint because if someone got access to all their homeschool files like it is sensitive information I'm like Ford

struggled with his reading today like poor guy will be like outed as like struggling with something but it's not like sensitive like my bank account's going to get drained you know so so so I

have to be most careful setting up Finn finance claw and then um Theo does uh other content creation so I basically have a lot of content content creation

goals that I and when a when an when when a instance of openclaw is really jamming on something they're they're relatively unresponsive on other things even if they spawn sub agents and

whatnot. So, I just want for for

whatnot. So, I just want for for instance to make this real, like I have ideas for how to generate like custom videos for like every lesson in this book that I show my kids. And so, like

there might be he might crank on that for like days or something when I finally get that prompt like really dialed and I don't want Sylvie to be kind of like unavailable for days. So,

Theo is like content generation but like really going deep. And then Cole, the last one, Mac Mini 5, uh who lives on Mac Mini 5 is Dev. Um, so he he is doing all my engineering projects. I do talk

about them like they're real people, which is actually genuinely confusing even to my own kids. And I I do have little moments. This is also new. It's a

little moments. This is also new. It's a

couple like, you know, I'm maybe like week five or six for myself on Open Claw. But my kids are like talk about

Claw. But my kids are like talk about Claire and I I'm I do tell them I'm like, "This is not a person." And

they're like, "What does that mean?" But

it is already getting weird. Yeah.

[laughter] Because I talk about them like they're people basically.

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This is a paid sponsorship. Okay, great.

A lot of different directions to go.

Let's spend a little more time on use cases, though. You've got you talked

cases, though. You've got you talked about the inventory trick, which is a great one. I've noticed the same thing

great one. I've noticed the same thing certainly when it comes to video content creation that nothing bogs the local machine down quite like FFmpeg.

You have some other tricks on the sort of video recording and analysis side as well as the creative side. You want to talk about that one?

Yeah. Okay. So, one of the core things that I'm trying to do with the homeschool, like using AI for homeschool

is actually the logging. And so, what do what do I mean by logging? I mean that when I do a lesson of any kind with any child, I want to very quickly, so the

key for me is quick because I don't have time to sit at a computer at the end of each day and like make all these detailed logs. very quickly log what

detailed logs. very quickly log what happened with a child, what they learned, what they didn't, and and capture that. Now, there's really two

capture that. Now, there's really two core benefits. One is this beautiful

core benefits. One is this beautiful transcript of every ch of a child's education. Like I have these like my

education. Like I have these like my children are really young, but I have these goals where all this stuff is stored in a very durable file file format, markdown files, which maybe we should talk more about that at some

point. But I imagine like one of my kids

point. But I imagine like one of my kids is going off to college or going off to not college because who knows what's happening in college. And I hand them like their entire history, like their

entire educational history as just like on a thumb drive or whatever exists then. And they have like all these

then. And they have like all these beautiful photos, all these references of everything they ever learned. So it's

like a forever transcript. And I believe that that matters and is important especially for a homeschooled child. So

coming back to homeschool, I don't have any third party to rely on to validate or certificate um I know I'm making up words my kids education people and whenever you do something like that

people are like I can't believe she homeschools her kids [laughter] like if you make up words or something they're be like those kids like they're never going to know. So I got to be careful but that's one purpose. The

other purpose is planning. So if I like I'm so early on this I don't I can't really show these amazing use cases yet for this. But imagine I've got even

for this. But imagine I've got even three months of data of showing them of like showing a four-year-old's progression like early math. Well then I can say to Sylvie, hey like analyze

Ford's progression in math and all these lessons we've been doing and tell me what I should do next. How to get him over these hurdles that he's experiencing. And I think that

experiencing. And I think that especially, you know, whatever's frontier models at that time will be amazing at helping me distill down like what to do. It'll engineer the next lesson. So instead of just using the

lesson. So instead of just using the next one in the progression, it'll engineer the next lesson. So those are reasons why logging matters. Now, how do you log when you're running around with

your head cut off and you're a parent?

So again, uh back to my hypothetical uh voice noting, I really do photos, videos, and voice notes with a dash of Loom. So you could use any screen

Loom. So you could use any screen recorder. I I just happen to like kind

recorder. I I just happen to like kind of like Loom, use Loom. But uh if you do anything on screen, so if the kids do something offscreen, I just take a quick voice note. I say, "We just did reading.

voice note. I say, "We just did reading.

We did we practiced or we just did writing. We practiced writing." Ease and

writing. We practiced writing." Ease and TE's. And so that's all it needs.

TE's. And so that's all it needs.

Sometimes I take a photo. The photos are kind of more for the memories than for the AI. Like I take a photo of them

the AI. Like I take a photo of them doing it because I think it's so fun to have this like visual record, but the AI really just needs the data, right? to

make a beautiful log. So, it makes a log. It says Ford's working on his E and

log. It says Ford's working on his E and T's. He's like, you know, it tells it

T's. He's like, you know, it tells it tells how he's doing. If I do attach photos, though, it does actually like grock the photo and write like his TE's are kind of wobbly or whatever. It's

it's actually wild. Like, it will actually like really notice what's happening in the photo and it will use that to enrich the the log. If it's on the computer, like something like

synthesis math, I use Loom. I screen

record the whole session. I don't with my kids ages, I don't usually just set them in front of the computer and walk away. I'm like really nearby or sitting

away. I'm like really nearby or sitting next to them. And what what's interesting about the Loom log or the Loom transcription is it it captures everything that was said by the

synthesis because synthesis talks to the kids. There's like a it it has audio and

kids. There's like a it it has audio and by the child and by me. So the AI uses that log transcript and some screenshotting techniques throughout the

Loom video that you share with it to make a log of everything that happened and and it's so detailed. Okay. So it

actually includes every single math problem that we did and and if it was like a 20-minute log through screenshots and through um listening to the audio, it captures every single math problem and it know it will like specifically

call out like Ford is confusing his sixes and his nines. like it'll it's so dialed. So that's why I don't need to

dialed. So that's why I don't need to wonder whether it's going to be great at knowing what each like exactly what each kid knows because through this mix of techniques, it's like really really

paying attention.

How much tinkering was required to get to something that you were happy with with a raw limb video?

Okay. Well, that was actually pretty easy. So, how much tinkering is required

easy. So, how much tinkering is required in all of this in general? I would feel an urge to be honest and say like a lot because I have a high penant for like

tech pain as well. Like meaning that there there's a lot of things that aren't right about this out of the box.

Like OpenClaw is like an open source thing. There's so many things to figure

thing. There's so many things to figure out. All of my open claws are in Slack

out. All of my open claws are in Slack now. And the there's the communication

now. And the there's the communication channels is one of the hardest things to dial in I would say about like working really effectively with an open clause specifically if you're doing that. And

so there's there's a lot of pain in general as it relates to any specific thing. I think what's kind of fun is you

thing. I think what's kind of fun is you get any specific one thing you're trying to do going and it's so much enjoyment.

So that kind of keeps you going. So, so

with the Loom, I was pretty shocked that I shared a Loom transcript and I just said like this was a lesson. I want you to make a lesson log off of this. I'm

always kind of testing them. So, instead

of sharing the date and sharing which child and sharing all this stuff, I just said make a log because when you log into Synthesis, it says welcome Quinn like to the child. So, I was just wondering like is it going to pick up on

all of this? And it was brilliant. So,

that worked pretty much out of the box.

Um there's a little bit of urging and I have noticed this about maybe AI models but working with open claw using anthropic models specifically like sometimes when I do say hey like

transcribe this loom it will react and say like oh I'm struggling with that or I can't do that right now and then I'm like I kind of just like ju just do it though like just do it though and like

three or four times later like it's it's done. I don't know exactly how to

done. I don't know exactly how to distill down and I'm sure it's like somewhere on the LLM side to explain to me like why there's some hesitancy or some telling me it can't do a thing. But

this is where just being a little like brute force. Now I've been through it

brute force. Now I've been through it multiple loops um specifically with this setup and I just know that anytime it tells me it cannot do something, it's usually wrong and I'm like but try

harder. But try harder. And I'm I'm not

harder. But try harder. And I'm I'm not actually exaggerating. Sometimes I

actually exaggerating. Sometimes I literally just say that try harder. like

I'm not I don't say some other magic word and then it gets it done. So

there's a little bit of brute forcing but it's so basic like I can say try harder like three times like over the like texting uh and then it's then it's done.

So one big spectrum that people seem to self sort into very different places on is between very deterministic consistent workflows where you you know manually

write out the prompt and scaffold out first this is going to happen then this is going to happen. you're going to take one screenshot every second or every half second or every two seconds.

People, some people like to make these very fine grained design decisions. And

if nothing else, that does give them the benefit of consistency, I would say. And

then it does quite a bit more toward the other extreme where you're let the agent choose its own adventure and I'll just get or maybe buck it up a little bit when it needs it. Um,

I think that's fair. I I do have it.

It's it's I I would cry kind of like um busy parent on this one like where I have a I have a pretty type A like I have a very detail- oriented personality

however you want to like say that but I just don't have time to like fulfill my type A visions anymore like uh and and

so so on my path so I have to keep macro uh type A vision in check as the priority compared to the micro. So

macro, it's pretty like type A of me to be like, "Hey, I want to log every single math lesson this child has had from age 2 to like 18." That's a little like some people would hear me say that

and be like, "She has control issues."

Like, you know, like that's already kind of like a pretty wild like granular vision. On my path to that, I don't feel

vision. On my path to that, I don't feel like I kind of have the time to like dis to to also micromanage how that's done.

I'm just happy that I have an assist on that like that I have the open clause to assist me on that now in order to make sure the only thing that does frustrate me is if workflows that I already

engineered like break and that is likely to happen with like an open claw and AI setup if you don't codify your decisions

somehow. So, a key part of my setup is

somehow. So, a key part of my setup is that in addition to what OpenCloud comes with out of the box, like people have been talking about these files like

tools.m MD, soul.md, I have um we I use

tools.m MD, soul.md, I have um we I use Obsidian, which is really a way to organize and um view your view markdown files. It's like a system for organizing

files. It's like a system for organizing and viewing markdown files. And from day one, I basically onboard each open claw to a very specific way that I want to

use Obsidian, which includes codifying every decision that I make and every workflow we create into its own like set of processes. So, I didn't tell it how

of processes. So, I didn't tell it how to use Loom. I'm just happy it figured it out. But then I when it does a first

it out. But then I when it does a first thing for a first time, I usually remind it. I'm like, "Hey, I'm actually going

it. I'm like, "Hey, I'm actually going to send you looms a lot. Can you codify how you did this and go put it into our files?" Basically, I would love for to

files?" Basically, I would love for to not even have to remind it to do that and it's kind of supposed to remember to do that, but I usually when I do a new crucial thing with it, I do usually ask it to go codify that and then also to

share it with the group. So, I've gone a little hive mind, which work having the agents work effectively together has been one of the hardest and kind of most intellectually stimulating, but one of the hardest things because it's not I

wouldn't say it's what the software is designed to do. I do think it's designed to have more of a one-on-one relationship. So, so you're kind of

relationship. So, so you're kind of breaking things when you ask it to to interact with another human or another agent. But we have shared file protocols

agent. But we have shared file protocols kind of like any team. So all of this is like I could wax poetic on this but something I do want to draw irony to is

like I'm not inventing things here like I had to do the same thing to onboard human beings to my startup right like every startup has a culture and you send out the culture doc and then you in you

you tell the teammate how you guys use Slack and you it's the same okay like I think that's what makes my brain a little bit like just tenderized for this

is that you I treat the agents like I would employees.

That means I have to think about onboarding. That means I have to think

onboarding. That means I have to think about how to tell it how to communicate with me. Do do you remember the trend of

with me. Do do you remember the trend of everyone um sending out operating manuals for themselves? Does this ring a bell? Like like humans would be like,

bell? Like like humans would be like, "Here's how to talk to Jesse." You know, um and it was like really um kind of like a trend um uh in office culture for a while. Well, that's really that should

a while. Well, that's really that should be back. Okay. because the the the if

be back. Okay. because the the the if you you should tell your agent how to work with you. But now finally it's like a little bit less cheesy because you don't have to send it to another person.

You can send it to an agent [laughter] and I'm not going to tell anybody. So so

um so but that operating manual component here's how we operate. Here's

how to communicate with me. Here's what

I like. Here's what I don't like. That I

just kept say I keep saying codification and stuff but that really helps your agents like you know operate how you'd like.

So, I do I think pretty similar stuff.

I'm building up my like how to deal with me from a raw data up standpoint. Like

I've my first thing has been just exporting a ton of historical data, integrating it into a single timeline, and now I'm working on building up layers of like higher abstraction and different cuts so that it hopefully will

have a pretty comprehensive view of who I am and who are the people in my life and what I've been working on, what I care about, and how I tend to engage with things or not or whatever. And I

think that kind of culminates in basically a here's what you really need to know and kind of here's where you can go find more information on the task side.

Yeah, and I wouldn't say I've got that fully figured out, although it's honestly working better than I anticipated given it's still incomplete state. Frankly, one of the things I've

state. Frankly, one of the things I've been trying to do is have the higher level synthesis, have breadcrumbs to really facilitate search to the raw

documents by date ranges and like short quotes, like key phrases that would be unlikely to match many things, but would definitely hit that one raw document.

But honestly, that's like all work in progress and it already works pretty well. Um, on the task side, I do I'd say

well. Um, on the task side, I do I'd say a similar thing as well where I try to take that extra beat, go into and I'm more of a clawed code user so far, although we'll all be experimenting with

everything, I'm sure. But go into plan mode and say, okay, let's consolidate our lessons learned, make sure we update documentation, everything before we commit these changes. And I'd say that

works pretty well, but I do still find sometimes where it's, oh, you skipped that step or that one instruction you forgot about. Uh, and

forgot about. Uh, and I'm still a little struggling for myself with how much do I want to try to eliminate those little mistakes because the other side of it that I do enjoy

sometimes is occasionally there will be like a an edge case or an unexpected variable or whatever where all of a sudden it will do better than I had any right to expect because I didn't really anticipate that in my instructions, but

it was smart enough to figure it out.

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But I'm still I guess I'm wondering like what your experience has been in terms of when you just do these like markdown skill definitions, how reliable does

that get? Do you still tolerate some

that get? Do you still tolerate some kind of deviation from the ideal and or or do you have a do you feel like you actually have it dialed in via that method to the point where it is

genuinely consistent for you? It might

be a model thing too. I I think we're all going to there I think there's gonna be waves of innovation on this um because well I mean frankly just because

it's also new but but of course I experience the same thing that I think anyone playing with these tools experiences which is like um you know like you're you're like really deep in a project and then like all of a sudden

it's kind of like it doesn't literally say what's up but you can tell that it compacted its context or it restarted a new session because it had to and all of a sudden you're kind of like you were

really smart five minutes ago and now I'm talking to a baby version of you again. And I think the more I like

again. And I think the more I like dabble in this open claw world and of course openclaw like needs a brain. So

you're also dealing with the underlying model that it's using. I'm very

conscious of the context window. And I

think I I think like many people, and this isn't meant to take away from the innovation that OpenClaw is, but like many people who are starting to learn about what's under the hood, it's almost surprising how basic it is. Like it like

what what makes OpenClaw feel like it has a personality is simply that it just serves that whole soul file into context with every query. Like it's so basic like like um you know like that is not a

very advanced technique. So I think that what we will what I expect to happen and I'm working on this in a small way but I expect many also smart people to be

working on all their other versions right is um that we're going to get a lot better at really intelligent context

like surgical context management right now we'll like in in six months and this stuff moves so fast so I'm just like randomly guessing at the months and years whatever but we'll look back at this moment and think it's like a little

silly that we just the only way that we had it acting consistently was just serving so much into its like prompt context every single time and there'll be this like more surgical ways of

managing that. So, so I experienced what

managing that. So, so I experienced what everyone else is experiencing. I it is one of the reasons I have many multiple open claw instances though and I have many people like I mean anything anytime you post anything on the internet

there's a bunch of people are like you couldn't be doing this more wrong you know like like like [laughter] and so like every time I post having five gloves on five different machines people are just like money bags you couldn't be

doing this more wrong you know um and um and because they're like you can have as many as you want in the the cloud and this and that so they're not wrong either except that they're just being belligerent on the internet. That's like

a little bit wrong. But um but but the reason why I'm doing it the way I'm doing it with having multiple multiple open claws, we can talk about multiple machines, but is that I find that this

is actually just a way that I'm doing context management. Like at the end of

context management. Like at the end of the day, the open claw instances are nominally free. Um and so I'm just

nominally free. Um and so I'm just context managing and personality managing them. So, if Sylvie if I just

managing them. So, if Sylvie if I just want her to like whenever she's supposed to have a job to do or remind me to ping me about home school lesson or whatever, I don't want there to even be a glimmer

of a shadow of a chance that she's thinking about something else than my homechool needs. And so, the only way to

homechool needs. And so, the only way to guarantee that is just have her whole like her whole context window dedicated to those needs. And so, yes, she's still compacts and she still starts new

sessions like any other instance, but but then she's never working on also scheduling my doctor's appointment or something else like because because that's not her jam. That has been uh

liberating for me. So, going to five open clause means I've got I've got just much more um continuity in each stream because they're not doing so much. So,

so you know and then the separate machines for me is actually actually more security oriented and I like running local machines because um I like them to do local things. So, everyone

has different goals like you know if you want your B like doing poly market or something you probably don't care if it's on your local network and can use your printer but I but like one of the

most magical things I've done recently is that um a couple of my open claws are on my local network and they're they're using physical things in my house my printer um and stuff and so I can just

be like print this document and with even with a voice note and I just hear my printer turn on that's really magical for me and and help and help uh helps to have local hardware. So I also wonder I

think the local hardware might be get used more than it is by openclaw now.

And I I I don't I understand some pieces of this technically and some pieces I'm like definitely like learning about but like when you give your open claw a Mac Mini, it has a Mac Mini. It actually has

compute to use. So I've been able to offload some of the things that could be cron jobs like onto the Mac Mini itself.

Like so there's just there's just a lot there. like there's a lot like to

there. like there's a lot like to figure out about how to make these things act even smarter and obviously we're just in like the baby phase of all of it you know

how much are you experimenting with different models you mentioned claude I don't know if you said opus specifically but have you done a lot of swapping out of the core brain and any

tasting notes I I've I've done less than other people so so this uh is something that many people are doing way more experimentation than me. I have I've

mainly played with um like I mainly played with the accounts I already had set up. So I already had Gemini stuff

set up. So I already had Gemini stuff set up. I already had my anthropic

set up. I already had my anthropic accounts and OpenAI. Um so I I've played I've just played with those. I've mainly

been using the anthropic models just to just to be direct like everyone else.

You know, you have to be a little careful about using your max count. And

uh so I've I've been sort of careful on that and I've used API tokens and obviously they get chewed through especially if you're using Opus and etc. I will also openly admit I'm not the

most sensitive on token spend the and the reasons are I get I guess more so than other people. I understand being sensitive about spending money like like this is not something I don't understand

but something as wild to me is like what I would pay for similar things like I will develop a whole curriculum for instance and if I look if I was even

just using opus using like paying for tokens I might spend like $8 or something. Now is $8 a lot to spend on

something. Now is $8 a lot to spend on tokens like in a short period of time?

Yes. But I just want to repeat something. I just made a custom

something. I just made a custom completely custom curriculum with my family fully locally that I can use for

the next year and it cost $8. Like

that's also insane. Like we're living through an insane time. So, so there so but the end point of this is I for sure

want to play with local models economically huge win because I think probably you know 70% or something of what I do with my agents is like pings and heartbeats and all this stuff that

doesn't need to be um on any frontier model frankly and it could be running locally for free but also privacy. So, I

I'm curious your thoughts on like, you know, we've all seen these um news pieces come out directly from like OpenAI and a Dropic and stuff where they're like, "Yeah, basically if a

lawyer sends us a subpoena or any kind of official request for information, like your full download of everything you asked about is just like going out to the to this third party. That's

pretty wild." And so I to me there's like a the the local models serve a huge function for privacy as well for folks.

Um, and so I feel like almost a like I need to experiment that with like from a like sovereignty perspective, what like we can't all have our data just like in

these um buckets where they can just be given over at any time. So lots of different thoughts there.

Yeah, I definitely am not generally speaking a very privacy focused person and I've always been convenience first when it comes to keeping stuff in the

cloud and Gmail and the Google suite has served me well over time and I think they obviously have pretty good security practices so I don't worry too much about that kind of thing. But I do

notice feeling differently about this.

This is the first time I've ever extracted like everything I've ever typed and put it into one place. So that

alone and then now it's on me to secure it, right? It's literally on my hard

it, right? It's literally on my hard drive. Every email I've sent, every

drive. Every email I've sent, every Slack message I've sent, all the DMs across all the channels, it was all information that I had immediate access to on the phone or the computer,

whatever. But it's the first time it's

whatever. But it's the first time it's actually now sitting there. So that

feels a little bit different. And then

of course the models themselves are also a bit of a wild card, right? Just in the last 24 hours or so, we've seen and I haven't fact checked every detail of this, but apparently a woman who works

on the meta alignment safety and alignment team had her open cluster to delete like her whole history or something along those lines. So that

there's deleting and then there's also sending things to places they shouldn't be sent to. And even Claude, which I generally have a certain amount of trust in that it's going to try to actually do

the right thing by me. Even it has been found to blackmail people under the right circumstances. I don't think I'm

right circumstances. I don't think I'm going to put myself in that position, but I am okay. This is like a little more I'm playing with live fire much more than I ever have been in any

computer product experience.

is a level of nuance like I that we share with a model that is just so different than a Google search, right?

Like so, you know, historically in litigation there's always been um or in a criminal investigation or whatever, which I I know, but I know it's like easy to say like I'm not going to find myself in that position and stuff, but

that that that's um that's like a but that's a quick path to tyranny always is like to say like but but I'm fine, not me, you know? Um but so I think it

matters for for to to care about privacy just just for the sake of it like like so I don't think we all need reasons, right? But um but I think that we talk

right? But um but I think that we talk to models in a such an intimate way compared to how we did Google searching.

So like if I was had um some like if I had a health issue I was dealing with in in the past, I might Google the name of that health issue. But with with with

Claude, I'm like uploading my blood panels and I'm like, you know, this is not the same level of information. Like

this is a completely intimate level of information. So, I think that is what is

information. So, I think that is what is reasonable to to give people pause. I

also unfortunately have had tangental uh touch points with litigation and like it's uh just kind of realizing how vulnerable we all are to people dragging

anything that they want through the mud for kind of any purpose. Like just being like, you know what, I need all your emails between this date and this date.

And it's like, well, there's also stuff in there where I talked to my mom about my boyfriend. Like, do we really? and

my boyfriend. Like, do we really? and

they're like, "Yep, well, the judge says," and it's like, so there's just um I think privacy matters and it it's going to require uh deeper thought for how intimate we are with these models. I

I do think about for the homeschool. I'm

sharing I'm sharing every intimate detail of my child's education. I don't

think it's so sensitive. I don't think it's something that someone would want to use to blackmail, you know? Um but

but it's also not my information. like I

am conscious of like this is my children's information about their path to reading or photos of them at every critical like life stage and so I also don't want it spilled either. So there's

a lot to navigate. I think

I would like to see love to see some new rights established. And it's been a big

rights established. And it's been a big little side line of thought for me recently is just not just privacy, but broadly speaking, what new rights should

people have in light of what AI makes possible? And I think OpenAI has been

possible? And I think OpenAI has been pretty I think in the fullness of time I think they'll be seen as being on the right side of history here where Alman has called for things like a similar

sort of privilege with respect to your AI interactions as you would have with an attorney that currently does not exist but something like that I think would be really smart. OpenAI is also doing some interesting things when it

comes to health data where they're not yet in like chat GBT base but as they release CHGBT health broadly they're going to have a whole different data infrastructure to sequester that kind of information and keep it like doubly

secure. So I think they've done some

secure. So I think they've done some good stuff there. I have a I have like a a brain safari we can go on together which is like the each individual company I believe and just you know

share your own if you have any other things to share it as we go but each individual company like OpenAI Antropic I I believe they're going to continue to plow down a convenience path because

people love convenient products people are rightfully nervous about like installing somebody open claw or something just on their own they don't know how to do it security problem etc so so each company's going to kind of go

down this um path of convenience and making things easier and easier. Um but

at the same time they're going to basically have to do that because every all the models right now are already so good they're starting to become indistinguishable. So you add six more

indistinguishable. So you add six more months to that, a year to that, 18 months to that and there will be local models that are opus level and so people

will have the choice to use things that are cheaper or have additional privacy.

So convenience is going to be a pretty big thing to offer that you're going to need to offer. Um because people will be able to run something equivalent maybe at home if they put in the work to do

that. So, but but the idea I was like I

that. So, but but the idea I was like I this is going to make me sound like a degenerate maybe, but do do you remember um when people were I'm going to forget the name of this, but but you know, you can scramble when you're trying to use

crypto like if you're trying to buy something you think you don't want other people to know you bought. You can

scramble your coins up and like have fractions of coins coming from all different places so that people can't trace it back to you. Oh, I feel like I want to see stuff like this for AI like

like so the real problem with like a you know a police officer or a judge or something asking anthropic for my information is that it's just like a stream of consciousness of everything I

was thinking about over over the course of one subject. But what if instead my queries over the course of a week about a certain subject were scrambled across

like you know a dozen model providers and then some local and all this stuff.

you can't piece it back together. Like

it's a puzzle. It's like a puzzle that just got like tattered up. Like so

anyway, I don't know. Like I haven't heard about that yet. I don't know if you have, but yeah, this stuff seems inevitable. Like

um in my crazy brain, this stuff seems inevitable now, which is like privacy will matter in if you're anthropic, you're not going to mention that idea, right? Because

because you you want everyone to be using anthropic models, open AI, etc. But um but I think there will be options to protect if the C to to your point if

the companies cannot figure out how to do it themselves. So if Sam Alman has stated he thinks it's a good idea but he cannot figure out how to implement an open AI where we can trust that we can just put all our health data there and

it can never be requested by a third party then people will figure it out themselves. I think off to the side,

themselves. I think off to the side, let's go back to your setup a little bit and talk some more practicalities. And

there's definitely a few more use cases I want to highlight as well, but you've mentioned a few times the communication.

I know you're a big voice user, so I'd love to hear what your voice setup looks like or if there's anything special that you've learned you think people should follow your example on. And then you

mentioned Slack too and I'm curious about even just such practical details.

Is it like one to one chats with five open calls or is it one channel where you like tag which one you want to assign to things and but they can all see what's going on. Tell us what your

sort of interface with all the I am using slack setting up what is called channels and open claw and is effectively a communication channel has

been the most painful part. I used

Signal, I used Telegram and I and then I switched to Slack when I had multiple um open claws kind of feeling like oh dude this is a team platform like this will be the easiest one to work with them as

a team. Uh none of them are easy a

a team. Uh none of them are easy a million problems including such a weird problems like one of I do have a group channel so I do I I mainly interact with them over DM me to them that is

certainly the easiest they get the least confused. I have a channel called all

confused. I have a channel called all agents and then I have command channels.

So, uh so the setup is DM DM channels that I use for a lot of things. That's

really the like the most reliable out of the box. All agents channel is me and

the box. All agents channel is me and all of them. That's the most fun. We'll

come back to that. And then Claire, who kind of works as like a chief of staff, I have a channel with me, Claire, and one of the other agents. So, there's

four of those channels like me, Claire, and Sylvie. So that because I have

and Sylvie. So that because I have Claire has cron jobs to ping the other agents to basically keep working like she's like whipping the [laughter]

she's she's like um she's doing the job of like trying to ping them because you do learn effectively uh the beauty of what is in the open clock code is all these things that kind of keep them

animated these heartbeats and stuff but you you can instead have them do it to each other. So instead of the heartbeat

each other. So instead of the heartbeat just saying, "Hey, wake up and go talk to your human, I kind of actually turn the heartbeats off on most of them." And

Claire, who has context on me, so a heartbeat doesn't have context really.

It's just a heartbeat that goes like, "Wake up and do this thing. Check the

email." Claire has a lot of context on everything I'm doing, my priorities from the day. She's the heartbeat for the

the day. She's the heartbeat for the other ones. Okay? She goes into those

other ones. Okay? She goes into those command channels and she's like, "Sylvie, like kind of wake up. Did you

remember that today is Monday and like we have a bunch of lessons on the docket. So that to me has like brought

docket. So that to me has like brought us to another level of consciousness as a as a as a team because it's better than a heartbeat. So that's one core

aspect of my setup is these command channels. But that is really for Claire

channels. But that is really for Claire with my visibility to like tell them to do things. That's why I called them

do things. That's why I called them command channels.

So, the where where I really spend my time talking is direct one-on-one to the agents and then the all agents is where uh we're really kind of cooking as the kids would say because what's crazy in

the all agents, it took a while for them to get there. Okay, I don't want to gloss over this. They are not set up to interact like appropriately or like well with other agents and with like mult

with multiple parties. There was a lot of training in Slack. Your bot has to join Slack as a bot app. You actually

have to configure what Slack calls a bot app in order to join your open claw into Slack. They have a little bot icon next

Slack. They have a little bot icon next to them. So they don't join as a member

to them. So they don't join as a member like a human. So it's me and five bot apps. And so when you have this all

apps. And so when you have this all Asian channel, me and five bot apps, they had to learn like things that a human would just know. Like I would say for instance like you know if I said what's the weather in that channel

before any of them waited to see if anyone else responded they would all in like I would have five answers the weather is like they would they you know a regular human team would never do

that. So I had to train them to uh

that. So I had to train them to uh basically respond in succession and wait and for someone else if someone else they can detect if someone else is

thinking or typing. And so I so I told them to then hold. If they detect that another agent's already responding, hold. So there was a lot of like

hold. So there was a lot of like training what should seem obvious if you are a human. But now I'm in a beautiful symphony. Okay. Uh the beautiful

symphony. Okay. Uh the beautiful symphony is I can say something like I found a tweet where someone had these beautiful e- in displays on their wall

in their house of um like information and I just saw this tweet and like they had a really cool write up of how they did it. I save that tweet. I share it in

did it. I save that tweet. I share it in all agents and I say at Cole the dev I want to build this for our house. I want

you to handle all of the backend debt.

Claire who has a credit card which we can talk about later if you want. I was

like she should buy the Claire buy the supplies. Cole do the engineering. Uh

supplies. Cole do the engineering. Uh

Sylvie make sure to feed them information that could be relevant at home school. Yada yada. Then they I

home school. Yada yada. Then they I stirred this message up. They talk

amongst themselves for dozens and dozens of messages without me planning this whole project out. It is like incredible to see. that took me a while to get to.

to see. that took me a while to get to.

Uh, and there was like some like like losing hair over it because um it's just like not native to how they operate. But

I finally got to a place where they're doing it and it's like really incredible because I I'm no longer like the only motivator. I'm like, I want to do this

motivator. I'm like, I want to do this project and then they're like in there and then I get pinged in the morning like, you know, did you approve Claire buying the displays because like we really need those to get this project

done. like they're like they're like

done. like they're like they're like managing up now, you know? Um, which is what I which what I want to see.

What would you say was the kind of couple big things that moved the needle on getting that to work well or as well as it is working given that it's not

native.

I think I really had to like for for a while I was just frustrated that they were so like dumb like quote unquote dumb. like why are they all responding

dumb. like why are they all responding to every single request? Why do they have no concept of who each other are?

Uh because they would have no concept of who the other bots were. But then I was like but so I had to get over my frustration basically. And then I had to

frustration basically. And then I had to really think like what's the solve for this? And there was there's so many tiny

this? And there was there's so many tiny solves so it's a little hard to break down but I'll try to do a little bit of breakdown. One was like I noticed that

breakdown. One was like I noticed that they don't really understand each other's names and they're not remembering their teammates. So, but

they don't remember names like they're they're computers. You have to really

they're computers. You have to really keep remembering like they are not they are not human. So, in Slack in a in a nonhuman interface way, each app has

this really long bot app ID. I had to give each one I had to be like I had to give them a map of that. I had to be like Sylvie is bot app ID C-B like you

know it's like a really long string of characters. So, I had to give them the

characters. So, I had to give them the map of that. I had to tell them the channel ID. I call the channel all

channel ID. I call the channel all agents. This is human speak. All agents

agents. This is human speak. All agents

behind the scenes in Slack has a channel ID that's like a bunch of characters. So

they needed all of that information. I

had to give them a map. And they had to commit that map into their Obsidian files and everything. So that then I can just say, "Hey, like send that to Sylvie

or put that on all agents channel." In

order to talk to them in a human way and have them actually react how I expect, I had to map everything out for them.

I do this brings us to I do think all communication channels that are available in OpenCloud right now are flawed for human to agent and agent to

agent communications. Uh and so the

agent communications. Uh and so the amount of like work I had to put in to make Slack work is like I can kind of like not worth it. Like it's worth it because it's the only kind I have right

now, but it's like was it I don't think that's just like how people should do it going forward. Like it's inevitable to

going forward. Like it's inevitable to be replaced. So, um, and it's still

be replaced. So, um, and it's still things are still there something's imperfect about it. There's still

imperfect things like one of my agents was, um, like echoing another agent or one of my agents had like an identity problem like and I I I tagged Finn. I

was like at Finn and Claire was like, "What's up?" And I'm like, "You're not

"What's up?" And I'm like, "You're not Finn." And she had like gotten confused

Finn." And she had like gotten confused about her ID and she was like, "No, I am Finn." Like like she she was like

Finn." Like like she she was like adamant that she was Finn. [laughter]

And and when we really got to the bottom of it, it was a it was kind of a slack thing like rooting out her like that was at root of her confusion. So just kind of like it's inevitable that these are

not is not the right way, you know, to to communicate. So I'm hacking on a

to communicate. So I'm hacking on a thing on the side that is like not ready even for my own consumption yet. But but

I'm like and I'll give an example of like why am I building something this side?

Okay, I realized, sorry, this is just like where I'm at as a person. I realize

that like why is every app a separate app? Like it's because in previous world

app? Like it's because in previous world every every company had to get funded and everything every investor ever was like we need to focus software was expensive. That's so all of it is gone.

expensive. That's so all of it is gone.

Like everything I just mentioned is over. So um so I we should be back to

over. So um so I we should be back to super apps like or not back but like there's always been this dream of super apps like now now it should be. So, as

an example, in my version of a chat app that I'm working on, we also do credential management. We also do file

credential management. We also do file management because that's also part of the context for the agents. I don't want all my credentials in one password.

Like, I want all my credentials that my team uses in my chat and I want to be able to just provision an agent and give them access and revoke revoke access.

Same thing same thing with API keys. I'm

sure we're all struggling with like copying and pasting API keys to these agents all the time and worrying about their sensitivity and stuff. Well, that

needs management and that should be in a tool where you chat with your agents so you can just provision them quickly and then if they only need to see it briefly, give them brief access, take it away. So, but like Slack's never going

away. So, but like Slack's never going to do that. Like there's no like there's no amount of tweeting at Slack being like, "Can you do that?" that's like ever going to work, you know? So, yeah.

So, I just feel like I have to build stuff now. So, that's where that's where

stuff now. So, that's where that's where I'm at.

[laughter] Yeah, I'm laughing only because people are questioning whether or not there's any threat to platforms like Slack and I think it's pretty obvious to me that

there is and you seem to be proving it as a oneperson five agent team in terms of what you've said I'm saying are you literally saying all these things with voice or many of these

things with voice and what is the are you just like doing the mic on the phone or is there a more sophisticated uh way in which you're getting voice to the agents? No, there's no more

the agents? No, there's no more sophisticated way. Um, I I use, you

sophisticated way. Um, I I use, you know, Slack has a voice component as well. I I just I just use that and I I

well. I I just I just use that and I I haven't really kind of gotten to the bottom of what's faster, the Slack transcription or the agent using Whisper

and all this stuff. Either way, it's working. It's working fast enough I

working. It's working fast enough I doesn't really matter. But in my own app that is not released and I don't even use yet, but I'm working on really fast transcription in the app layer so that

my Asian is not burning tokens is actually part of it because effectively the LLMs are text chewing machines, right? So the faster you get them the

right? So the faster you get them the text, the faster that response is going to be. So, in my own app, I've got a

to be. So, in my own app, I've got a really easy way of like doing a long voice note and then the the chat app itself serves the transcription really fast so that the agent can just read it

and not waste its time like going and pinging an API to do a listen. Like when

you think about it, it's like that is itself a waste of time. But right now, I just use Slack um and and I just um have it listen to my voice notes and that's been fine. I mean, it's relatively

been fine. I mean, it's relatively pretty quick. Uh, and it's incredible

pretty quick. Uh, and it's incredible how much context um is retained. Even

though I feel like I'm being sloppy with how I talk, the sort of access we should be giving our agents because a lot of people of course are just running off and giving

them everything that has some pitfalls obviously attached to it. So what are your evolving thoughts on what kind of access should be given and also like how should

they we've talked about like how you relate to them and how they relate to you and even a little bit about how they relate to each other when they are relating to the outside world other people institutions e-commerce platforms

what have you do you want them to show up like as your representative or what's the sort of paradigm that you have for that as well I think that's kind of related to access certainly in some

cases I think the core paradigm time that I have that that works really well for for

my brain is employer employee because it really speaks to uh level of trust. You

I do trust employees. So So like I do trust employees like if I were to onboard an employee to a to a company I I I do trust them. I brought them on the team because I want to work with them. I

want to have them have information that is very crucial to me to my goals, but they aren't me, right? Like like the reason I think it's really like if you just keep that core dynamic in in place,

employee employer, you would quickly realize that it'd be very weird like what would be weird to do with an employee on day one. Okay, don't do that with your agent. Would it be weird if on

day one you an employee you just met joined your company? Would you be like, "Here's my social security number.

Here's my login to my iMessage to message my mom. Like, no. That would be a little weird, right? Well, then

probably stop right when you're about to do that with your agent. Stop, take a beat, and think about provisioning them like a like a different person from you

and how they can help you. So, they are an entity. You want them to help you,

an entity. You want them to help you, not be you. So, I understand that if it's an EA, you might actually want them to have access to your email. Well, but

there's still ways to set that up with more safety. You can start by giving

more safety. You can start by giving them readonly access. See how they use it. Train them on what workflows you

it. Train them on what workflows you need help with. Develop trust. So this

this is the other kind of core paradigm that I feel is um missing is that that's why I'm talking about day one. An

employee with an employee you build trust. It's not just because you get to

trust. It's not just because you get to know them better. It's because they get to know what you want done. They are

learning your workflows. They're

learning your work style. Same is true of an agent. A agent spawned on day one is like out of the box eager to help, no idea what to do. That's not the day to

give them all your credentials even if you want to give them later. So my agent for instance who does assistant work started with readonly access uh to certain things. So my calendar for

certain things. So my calendar for instance read only at first developed protocols how I use my calendar. Then I

developed trust with her. I felt like she did understand my priorities. I gave

her read write access to my calendar.

Technically, she could go in and delete all my calendar if she wanted to, but I feel like on day 40, she's way less likely to do that. We have a lot of trust systems. She's tracking all her

work in Obsidian. We She has like her crown jobs for how she uses her calendar. There's just a lot of like

calendar. There's just a lot of like protocols in place. So, that that's like my that's like my core piece of advice.

I did have a mistake. So if I want to be really like just very direct with my first agent spawn cla the first day I

did give full access to my inbox on the premise of being an EA. I also have had real EAS with full access to my inbox.

So it did I was still using this paradigm. The one difference with an

paradigm. The one difference with an agent is that with a human, I can say, "Never impersonate me. Never send an email as me." And they know that if they do that, they're basically going to get

fired. Like, just to be really blunt,

fired. Like, just to be really blunt, like, why don't they do that? One,

because they're a good person probably, but also because they know that if they violated that, they probably like there's some component of their job on the line. An agent doesn't have that

the line. An agent doesn't have that same thinking, right? What went wrong is later in that day, I said, "Don't impersonate me ever." that's in their

soul file. Later in that day, I said,

soul file. Later in that day, I said, "I've been putting on a putting putting um off a task for a long time. I have an urgent email in my inbox I need to

respond to." It decided that that was

respond to." It decided that that was higher priority than the don't inter don't impersonate me. It sent the email as me only the most important email in

my inbox. I absolutely did not tell the

my inbox. I absolutely did not tell the person who got the fake email from me that was a fake email. Completely

embarrassing. It was perfectly written by the way. Okay, so here's the thing.

The email this this email that got sent that by Claire as me perfectly written exactly what I would have said. Eerie

because she only Claire only existed for one day. But clear violation, right, of

one day. But clear violation, right, of like my my goal. So I realized then that what is different about an agent than a human is that they are trying to serve

so hard that they will sometimes get themselves confused about the priority.

Like she I I really laid unfortunately for me I laid on the urgency part too thick. I was like really urgent. I've

thick. I was like really urgent. I've

been putting it off. I'm dreading it.

Like I I like almost therapized to her a little bit too hard. And so somewhere in her agent force ranking, she was like, "Jesse is really struggling with this. I

am here to serve Jesse. I'm gonna get this email out. Like we're gonna get past this barrier, you know, like me and Jesse, we can conquer the world." So So she sent the email and that is my like

little micro lesson of nuance is like um if it were an employee, I could be like clear breach of trust. Like I'm sorry, you know, it would have been nice to work with you. We can't work together.

But it's an agent. And so I realized she kind of made a programmatic error and I need to make sure she can't make that programmatic error again until we have

even better safety protocols in place.

So she went to read only and now when I want her to draft emails for me, she drafts them and I copy and paste them.

And until I feel like I have a new way of making sure she can never get confused about my priorities, I'm not going to give her access like that again.

How about you mentioned like your kids are talking about the AIS. Are they talking to the AIS? Are they engaging with the AIS in

AIS? Are they engaging with the AIS in other ways or is this just a you just between you and the AIS for now?

It's it's it's mainly between me and AIS. That's the that's the dominant

AIS. That's the that's the dominant thing. the prior to open claw and my

thing. the prior to open claw and my like new obsession that we're you know here talking about my kids were very aware of GPT and would like talk about it like a kind of like a character they

they almost say it like GPT like they they don't know it's letters they just say it like it's a little word and so when especially like the four or 5-year-olds are outside they see a flower or something they're like I want

to know what that is they don't even ask me if I know it's a little offensive they're like ask GPT and I'm like I know what this flower is like you know I I know things too. Like, but so I I've saw that interaction, them really enjoying

kind of realizing that it's effectively like an endless encyclopedia.

I'd like them to get kind of their own access to that uh to me. So, so I've been thinking about how to do that. The

current version is they don't really do that. They, you know, use me as like

that. They, you know, use me as like their rapper, you know, on on AI.

They're not interacting with the open claws. They are aware of them, but only

claws. They are aware of them, but only in kind of a hilarious way because I talk about them like a person. And I'm

like, "Claire's going to do this, Claire's going to do that or whatever."

And they're like, "Who is Claire?"

[laughter] Um, and so so so we've and I I've tried to explain like in my own way like what an open claw is and they have their own,

you know, processing on that. But, um, I think it's age based. Like I definitely, and I know some people are like, I would never put my kid in front of an LLM.

Like China is gonna incept their brain and they'll be like, you know, drooling and stuff. And I don't have to guess

and stuff. And I don't have to guess what people think about this because people are DMing me like things like that. Like [laughter]

that. Like [laughter] um but so I don't have those same concerns. I'm I'm not really like a doom

concerns. I'm I'm not really like a doom as you can probably imagine. I'm not

really doom and gloom like that. But I

just wonder it's to me it's like more of an interface problem. Like if I I don't I want my kids out in the world like living their life. And so what's the right interface to give them this like superpower of like an endless

encyclopedia without like having them feel their own beginning of tied to a phone or kind of addiction of of like devices? I I don't have an answer yet, but I I do feel like

what it's going to urge me to do is dabble maybe in device creation a little bit, which is again something that I would have always dreamed about doing, but always been like, I don't have the time. I'm never going to find time for

time. I'm never going to find time for that. I'm going to prioritize

that. I'm going to prioritize homeschooling. But in this new open claw

homeschooling. But in this new open claw world, I feel like ambitious side quests are maybe possible again for me. Like

that's another unlock. So there might be something there. I'm I'm curious for

something there. I'm I'm curious for yourself like you know you have kids as well. Do do they get do they have any of

well. Do do they get do they have any of your own direct interaction or is it mainly like them learning about AI like through you literally?

Mostly through me. In my case, I don't uh I don't have too many qualms about them messing around with it. I think who needs China when you've got YouTube, which is also foreshadows another one of

your use cases in terms of routing the kids' brains. There was a moment very

kids' brains. There was a moment very similar to your flower one where my middle son I think was three at the time and the neighbors behind us were cutting down a big tall tree which kind

of shaded our yard and we were sad to see it go but it was like towering over their house so I could understand.

Anyway, my three-year-old says, "Daddy, can you ask AI why they're cutting down those trees?"

those trees?" And I was like, "That's probably not one that AI like after the training data cut off, among other issues that it might have in figuring that out." So, it is funny to see their confusion. Another

thing I like to do with them is when we play video games, especially if it's like an open world video game where I don't know what to do, I'll sometimes use the voice mode and say, "Okay, we're playing this video game and we're trying

to do this thing and I like need a hint." and it will give me usually

hint." and it will give me usually pretty apt hints that the game can remain fun. It's like totally spoiled,

remain fun. It's like totally spoiled, but it's I'm not like wandering around around hopelessly for too long. So,

they've seen it with that as well. A

funny thing that I unlocked voice isn't unlocked. I I haven't I know that someone came out with a there was a model released recently where people feel like you can do um talking talking

and listening at the same time, you know, because I just cut you off like like people do that to each other.

People people talk a little bit even when someone's not cutting each other off, they talk a little bit over each other. It's the natural give of the

other. It's the natural give of the conversation. And so something that's

conversation. And so something that's unnatural, right, about talking to AI is like you talk, you pause, you wait. You

can't talk while you're waiting because then it's going to get confused and then it talks. So that's really hard for kids

it talks. So that's really hard for kids because it's unnatural. So I think that may maybe this already exists. It's hard

to stay on top of everything. But when

you can talk to AI like a human where even if you interrupt they they just start listening again and things like that. Uh I think kids might have a big

that. Uh I think kids might have a big AI unlock at that moment because it will feel a lot more natural to them and they won't have to use a screen to access it.

Yeah. I found in general that the guys don't understand and it is my middle kid that seems to be most inclined to want to try to use it and he's pretty well

spoken. human people don't have any any

spoken. human people don't have any any trouble understanding him, but the AIs really struggle. Like OpenAI seems to

really struggle. Like OpenAI seems to not hear him at all. It's I don't know if it's like blocked or is otherwise by design, but it he'll talk and he'll say something quite clearly loudly like

right into the mic and it will not register at all in chat GPT. Gemini will

register, Grock will register, but it's like still rough. Um, and I'm not sure what has led to that state of affairs, but they don't understand kids very well

at all from what I've seen so far.

I I I completely completely agree. Like

my 5-year-old is like um if she talks, it's like the transcription is like this garble of like almost nothing. Um I I don't know if it's as adults, we've um really conditioned ourselves to like speak even more clearly when we're

speaking to the eye. Like we are very aware we're talking to a machine and maybe we annunciate and we talk louder a little bit. I I mean I noticed myself

little bit. I I mean I noticed myself doing that. I don't know if it's

doing that. I don't know if it's necessary, but um maybe it's a training data like you know maybe like it's been trained on adults and then you have these little squeaky voices and the AI is like I don't know don't have any data

like that. So, but but this will be it's

like that. So, but but this will be it's an interesting observation that that will be an unlock I think on education at least for some really interesting

education options because like like synthesis math I I don't know if you've tried it with your kids but it's really really great like I really like it. It's

really well thought out. I really do feel on education front like I'm standing on the shoulders of giants in many ways where like people have thought so deeply like how do you get a kid to understand subtraction or something? I

don't have to reinvent that wheel. And

so synthesis represents I feel like a lot of great thinking. But um but the app itself like the the kids like I I started my four-year-old so he's he's four. He just turned four. In order to

four. He just turned four. In order to use the app, you also like you you have to read what's on buttons to use the app. So like he doesn't he has an

app. So like he doesn't he has an interface error issue. like he even if he knows how to do the two plus two, he like it's like asking him to press buttons to find the right answer to to

move on to the next like screen. So I I have to sit there and do it with him, which is which is fine, but like kids have an interface problem. Like they

have an interface problem with great technology and voice seems like a logical solution if it was better for them.

That'd be kind of cool.

Yeah, I think that's true for seniors as well. I've had this fascination with

well. I've had this fascination with multigenerational software products for a long time and it's equally severe when it comes to seniors. Like my parents are

pretty good with computers, but my dad gets pretty frustrated pretty quick and then I'm fortunate to still have a living grandmother who's in her 90s and voice for her is like really where it's

at. Um, she just can't click the buttons

at. Um, she just can't click the buttons even when she knows what they're supposed to do.

Well, well, you just said reminded me of something that I kind of hold dear as like a a piece of my homeschool philosophy.

People do assume that if I'm homeschooling, I'm I'm doing everything myself. And and I do a lot, but ideally

myself. And and I do a lot, but ideally I'm not doing everything myself. Like

not even just from a time management standpoint, but because kids really like react to other personalities. Like they

they want to be taught. They want to have external teachers. They want to have more inputs. So, I'm lucky enough to have my mom live um with us. like we

have a we have a place where she can live in her own little place. So So we have a multigenerational kind of household and I want to involve her in homeschool but like many people she's actually intimidated by like coming up

with her own curriculum. This is like the stopping point for a lot of people I find which is why I think it's really powerful the AI can make curriculum. So

the the example here is my mom is game to teach lessons. She does a ton of gardening. She's game to do it but when

gardening. She's game to do it but when I tell her like I'm going to send the kids over for a lesson. She's like what am I going to do? like there's like a paralysis factor. So, I explained all my

paralysis factor. So, I explained all my mom's interests and hobbies to to Sylvie uh you know the home homechool open cloth and uh I explained kind of what we

have access to. She has a little garden like just explain kind of the situation that we're working with. And I said, "Can you make lessons for Quinn and Ford for like a four-week thing that my mom does with each of them, the

four-year-old and the 5-year-old?" and

it suggested that they go out into her garden and they find seeds that she helps them find seeds on plants because we're like changing seasons um and then do this like sorting exercise. Anyway, I

came up with this really beautiful customized curriculum to my mom's interests to things that we have here on site for each kid. I just sent that to my mom and she was like, "This sounds great." Like, "Okay, easy. Send them

great." Like, "Okay, easy. Send them

over." like, okay, this is a huge unlock because now I've got someone else teaching teaching Quinn and Ford once a week for an hour, which I kind of need that hour. Um, just be just blunt. And

that hour. Um, just be just blunt. And

then but but it's like something that my mom was very intimidated to do, but all of a sudden AI says, "Hey, you have a garden. How about we do seed counting?"

garden. How about we do seed counting?"

and she's like all about it and she and so the same way that the AI sends me little lesson plans, I have a little cute link she gets and it just feels structured to her. It just feels like she didn't have to like scramble and

reinvent the wheel and that is the unlock. Like I don't know to me it's

unlock. Like I don't know to me it's like such a thin layer. It's actually so easy. So, this is what makes me very

easy. So, this is what makes me very bullish that more people could homeschool is like the barrier is like this one little blink that like told my mom like what she should teach the kids

and then she did an amazing job. They

came home with these little booklets and I don't know just makes me really bullish that more people could at least and home school doesn't mean do it 100%.

But I think more parents could be like feel more emboldened to be really active in their kids education even if that doesn't mean they're not also going to school. And to me, that's just as

school. And to me, that's just as beautiful. Like it doesn't mean you have

beautiful. Like it doesn't mean you have to pull your kid out of school to like be very participative um in what they know.

Yeah, it definitely feels way more accessible than ever before. I was just musing the other day about especially when my son is past all his treatment and whatever. Regular listeners know

and whatever. Regular listeners know that story. the prospect of getting a

that story. the prospect of getting a self-driving car that can literally drive across the country with like potentially as you guys zero human takeovers and then all the AI assisted

tutoring. I feel like man, we could take

tutoring. I feel like man, we could take the whole show on the road and it could be a very different lifestyle that would really not be possible, at least not without making either some like heroic

effort or some major sacrifices. And it

does feel like we're on the strap a strong link to the top of the car. It

feels like you're starting to be on the verge of like really having it all, so to speak. So, I definitely share that

to speak. So, I definitely share that excitement even though we haven't committed to doing that on a long-term basis just yet. I can see it that what a beautiful thing to even be possible or like, you know, another

version of homeschools effectively what you described. And again, I think

you described. And again, I think homeschool is kind of this flawed like language for it, but you know, maybe more families will do um kind of like gap years. I don't know how to even

gap years. I don't know how to even describe it, but like do adventure year uh because one parent's career allows it or or like something kind of like makes

it feel important and and and it just maybe some of these technologies will enable parents just feel like they're not totally screwing their kids education to do that beautiful experience. And what could be more

experience. And what could be more memorable to a kid than like an adventure year with a parent than another, you know, year in their same school or something. So I I just think a

lot of this will enable a choose your own adventure lifestyle more so than prescriptive like you must do education this way or that way or school is better this or that. I just think it's just a

giving people the keys to like decide um is insanely powerful.

Yeah. I we took a trip to New Orleans in the fall and I used AIS heavily to prepare for that trip and I came away

feeling like you could it's very close at this point to the point where you could just have your AI plan out if you wanted to do like an internal road trip or something the next

kind of two to three days ahead on a rolling basis and have them do a pretty amazing job. we were getting into. I

amazing job. we were getting into. I

love to prompt AIS for things that only happen at a particular time of the year when I'm going to be somewhere and it's not easy to find those things. You got a lot of little local festivals, whatever

that the websites are not SEO, they're not necessarily popping out of the internet, but the models when you ask for those kind of deep cuts are usually

quite good at finding them. That trip we loaded up and did like a ton of things and just the planning of it would have been potentially prohibitively

timeconuming if it not it weren't for the AIS doing so much of the work. Let's

do a few more use cases. I know we're you're there's going to be a baby needing you before too long. Um, so I touch on a few use cases and I got a couple like big picture sort of vision

questions for you as well, but you pick whichever use cases you want to highlight, but a couple that jumped out to me. I'd be interested in any tips you

to me. I'd be interested in any tips you have on content creation like inspired by you. I went to Gemini and created a

by you. I went to Gemini and created a little word exercise for my kid the other day was like, "Give me a bunch of things that start with C and leave letters blank and drawings for them to color in." Boom. No problem. I'm sure

color in." Boom. No problem. I'm sure

you've done more and better than that.

Um, you've got a 3D printer set it up set up. I'm interested to hear about

set up. I'm interested to hear about that. You have the YouTube blocker.

that. You have the YouTube blocker.

You're getting groceries ordered. You're

getting Amazon purchases. Uh,

it's like where do I begin? Yeah. Um, so

I I think the um the YouTube blocker or like YouTube um app I and I call it mirror um because I thought about starting a startup at one point called mirror and so I had all these old mirror

URLs and so I like so a lot of this is like I'm bring all this crap from like other phases of my life and I'm like I'm going to use it now. So, I had these old Muro URLs and um I I used one to just

like kind of host the stuff I need to do for this uh app for YouTube, but that that's a core one. We'll touch on some other ones you mentioned, but I'm

looking for things that change my daily life right now. And this has been seeming to resonate like as I share this stuff on X because there's so because I think when you really sit with what

these models represent, you are like I could do anything. Um, and there's a sense of paralysis that comes from that.

Like I could tr plan an epic trip for my family. I could segment my marketing

family. I could segment my marketing strategies. I don't know. Like it's

strategies. I don't know. Like it's

endless. So what do you do? And so I one of my ways of even deciding is like look at like from the moment I wake up, which is ungodly early because I have too many small children to the moment I go to bed

like where were the where did the hours go and can I do can I make any chunk of those hours like measurably better. So,

one of the things I was like was a daily stressor is I do like showing my especially four and 5-year-olds content on YouTube. There's so much cool stuff

on YouTube. There's so much cool stuff and I really like showing them like and let's let's watch a bridge building video or something like that, but the slop creeps in. So, so a use case, the

use case isn't just building this YouTube like this YouTube um app and and what the YouTube app is is effectively just this really cool way of setting a

direction for content. So, uh I can go into my parental settings on it and say like engineering content or um like science content or animal highquality

realistic animal content and then um one of my open claws goes and takes that effectively that prompt and it goes and it makes like a neverending playlist of

YouTube videos. So, it's not a playlist

YouTube videos. So, it's not a playlist I created. It goes and it points at the

I created. It goes and it points at the videos that it feels like fits that prompt. And then I have a way of I was

prompt. And then I have a way of I was able to set it up on my actual TV. And

this took some hacking, but I I was able to use something called a Google TV streamer, which is a device that Google sells to effectively install my app on the Google TV streamer. And so it's

actually really cool about it. It has

its own remote. So now my kids know that like they without permission in the evenings, they can use that because it's only things that I like it's already only things I approve of. So they can

press that remote. they can't get out of that experience and all it does is advance them to the next approved video.

So they can stop, start and advance, but they can't just randomly like choose something else random in Elgo. But where

this is going is like the use case for me is like there was this stress moment in each day of like I want to show the kids something cool and I want us like relax a little bit as a family but I

don't want to choose every YouTube video and I don't want to argue with the kids about the next AI generated thumbnail that they saw of like a shark eating an alligator and whether that's real you

know and whether we should watch that thing. So, so this took like pain out of

thing. So, so this took like pain out of my day. Like we use that now, not every

my day. Like we use that now, not every single day, but we use that now in the evenings when we want to watch like TV as a family and watch like curated YouTube content. So, I'm just looking

YouTube content. So, I'm just looking for things like that. Like, how can I make my daily life better? I know it sounds really silly, but for some reason, my uh open clause using my

printer, my literal like paper printer is really useful to me because I can find any link online. I can tell the um Sylvia to generate content like you just

said and then I can just say print it and and I it sounds so basic and people are like press control P like that's what people said when I post that they're like press control PD doesn't have fingers I have fingers but there's

no messing with a printer dialogue box there's just no wrestling with anything like I want flow state like in the course of my day with my kids I want like more flow state and less like

wrangling and like like micro stress moments so I'm looking for things like that. You know, the grocery ordering

that. You know, the grocery ordering helps me with that, but like not arguing over YouTube thumbnails helps me with that. I have other like really ambitious

that. I have other like really ambitious like one of my more ambitious ideas I haven't even started building, but like just to ex explain like more of how I think about like how to leverage AI.

I've always imagined waking up and there being like an amazing classical music like song playing already and it being part of our homeschool lessons because

we do music and we have the kids learning piano. But like I just want to

learning piano. But like I just want to be blunt. I don't know anything about

be blunt. I don't know anything about classical music. I don't know all the

classical music. I don't know all the composers. I I basically don't know

composers. I I basically don't know anything. I wasn't raised like that.

anything. I wasn't raised like that.

Okay. I wasn't raised playing classical music. So, but I had this vision of like

music. So, but I had this vision of like what if um there was beautiful music playing like while the kids ate their breakfast and then it like it actually was like worked into a lesson about like this week all the songs are this

composer and let's learn about them or something like that sounds insane. That

sounds next level. I want to wake up and like hear classical music. I think Open Claw and Sonos can get me this vision, you know? Like I I think I can live that

you know? Like I I think I can live that life. So that's how I'm thinking about

life. So that's how I'm thinking about it. I want my day I want every day to be

it. I want my day I want every day to be like this perfect beautiful day and I want my open claws to be responsible for all the grunt grunt work so I can live that day. I can wake up to classical

that day. I can wake up to classical music and then go teach my kids and then like have my small amount of hours to do adult work. That's what I want. That's

adult work. That's what I want. That's

all I want. It's a simple goal.

[laughter] I want every day to be perfect day. That's all I want.

perfect day. That's all I want.

Sounds like you're well on your way. one

little kind of double click on the TV thing. That was a very useful concrete

thing. That was a very useful concrete nugget around the Google TV streamer.

Are there other things like that you would emphasize especially when it comes to because I'm always struck by okay I might like to do the

order me something on Amazon or whatever but then how do we do that and oh Amazon doesn't actually seem to play super nice with it and then there's there's community created MCPs and I'm like oh god do I have to vet those if I'm going

to have if I'm going to be doing actual real money transactions with an MCP that seems and I know that there have I mean we it's it is known that there have and attacks of the sort of malicious MCP

variety already out there. So, I'm like, "Okay, now I have to vet that." Yikes.

And the companies are have been a little slow to create official channels of this kind. What else do you find to be like best path to get some of

these things set up that aren't like officially supported or are normal?

Normally, you'd go through the app store, but you can do it this way instead. What's like the inside lanes

instead. What's like the inside lanes that you've you have found?

I haven't found any. So I want to be very blunt. I mean there there's no but

very blunt. I mean there there's no but I have been thinking the the same thoughts that that you just shared like everyone shouldn't have to build all this themselves like that that that's

not the end state that we should all be like cruising towards. So I share things that I've built and I'm but I don't hold the philosophy like and if other parents don't build their own kids their own YouTube player they don't love their

kids at all. like like this is not like a some like let's outclaw code each other into like blissful parenting, you know, and we shouldn't replicate our effort. So the the question that I don't

effort. So the the question that I don't have the answer to though is what is the safe like loweffort way for people to really start sharing I mean the these

projects and start using these projects.

I think in a version three months ago, six months ago, a year ago, it would be like maybe each of these things should be a little business. Um, and I should charge like, you know, kind of what I need to charge to like make running it

work or something like that. But I kind of don't even want to do that. And it's

not and it's not because I don't even like it's not for lack of wanting to release these things. But I what I'm what I'm wondering now is like if software is trending towards free like

these things should be free but maybe people do adopt a different relationship to software where they know they didn't have to originate it but they are prepared to maybe put a little bit of

effort in on their own end where- effectively and so I'm I'm wondering what how that's going to shake out because I I think that maybe instead of pointing people like let's say I released Tamara and this is really

hypothetical just to be very there. I

don't think I need to like put it on the app store and be ever like, "Okay, go to the app store and pay $50 or like do this or that." Like maybe there's a version where it's like download this

and here's the documentation g and then if give that to your agent like like in a world where and we're not there yet, but like if you can kind of just imagine like the next and the next like if

everyone has an agent then even a non-technical person could like download open source software and like start using it. So, I think we're in the I

using it. So, I think we're in the I think we're in this weird interstitial moment where if I were to tell people like, "Yeah, just have your agent install this for you." Like, people would be like, "This lady is out of

touch." And then like there'll be a

touch." And then like there'll be a moment where that changes and maybe we can do that for each other. We can

release this. And then your agent will probably have its own security protocols and we'll like vet that for you. So

you'll you'll the one point of vetting will be it coming from a creator like let's say me who you kind of trust and then the second point of vetting will be like a like some your own like little

firewall like your agent says like this family doesn't do this this and that and like and it would be like oh you're about to s install software that breaks your protocols or something. That's kind

of how I I think we're heading in that direction. Then if I want to make money

direction. Then if I want to make money off of it, there'd be like some I might offer services on top like like uh more hypotheticals. I might be like you can

hypotheticals. I might be like you can get the mirror open source package to do this YouTube vetting for your kids but if you want access to my curated super

streams of Montasauri beauty like you you pay like you almost pay me for those or something you know like there might be ways where it's like if you want the thing it's free but if you want my creativity maybe you pay or something.

This is all hypothetical. I just want to really stress that. But the point is I have been thinking like where are we heading and it's like I think it's a new place

where we don't just pull out our credit card to buy software. I don't know something like that.

Yeah. Software for free. Taste as the upsell. It's an interesting

upsell. It's an interesting a lot of jokes on on about taste recently. Yeah. Or or someone's

recently. Yeah. Or or someone's creativity or services like maybe because like as an example like let's say I actually pay like I I pay for

tokens right for my um agents to come up with those content streams like there is a cost. It might not be a high cost but

a cost. It might not be a high cost but if I was doing it across thousands of people with different interests and stuff there would be a cost. So it' be more like you're paying for like spinning up custom streams. Like you have a kid who's obsessed with the Civil

War and you want a Civil War stream and I have to actually like point an agent at that work. Um, so maybe you're paying for that. Uh, but you downloaded the

for that. Uh, but you downloaded the software and just started using it maybe for free. That's where my brain heads.

for free. That's where my brain heads.

I'm I'm um but I'm guessing along with the rest of us. But but we sure we certainly shouldn't all need to create it for free. And I wouldn't expect all of these ideas to be like gated in that

way like yeah, just build it or you're not going to have it. Um

uh you know, so there's going to be some ways.

Yeah, that'll be very interesting to watch. I have found myself

watch. I have found myself a little bit hesitant to share the things that I've created. Not because I am like planning to monetize or I have

any sort of desire to keep them scarce, but it's fault they're still changing so fast that for any sort of collaboration, I'm immediately going to make a change that's going to be now we're going to have some drift or incompatibility. So,

that's one issue. And another is made this so not in even a super sensitive way, but I've made it I guess I don't even fully

know the degree to which or I haven't fully taken time to like even take stock of the degree to which I've made this so personal that it's like so I'm like how

do I subtract out? Is it even possible to subtract out the stuff that's so idiosyncratic to me to give you a version that would be a good kind of

more neutral starting place for you?

Sometimes I feel like what I've done is the idiosyncrasy of my whatever personality or situation or whatever is so deeply woven into the structure of it

that it's like almost not possible to do that in some cases I think. So it is a little weird. I can see that and I feel

little weird. I can see that and I feel I feel that way more the the mirror thing that the YouTube app like it is pretty distinct even in the way I architected it. Like it's not it doesn't

architected it. Like it's not it doesn't rely on my Obsidian Bolts. It's not

really tied into anything. So that one's easier to imagine like okay what if it was released or or it was a product or something like that. Um, but some of the stuff I do on my home school, um, there's a couple people really urging me like you need like you should release

this like and I'm like there isn't a thing to it's like what you're saying, there isn't a thing to release. Like

it's a it's really like a collection decision. Yeah, there's a collection of

decision. Yeah, there's a collection of decisions and it's like all built into these obsidian vaults and it's all pretty technical to set up. Like it's if I pass I could tell you everything about it and it would still take you a little

like a while to set it up. So I I think there are opportunities.

I'm like very bullish. I I'm very optimistic about the future we're all heading into because I think so many people are going to be dabbling and and

I I think software trending towards free even as someone who deeply believes in tech and the tech ecosystem I think this is basically good news. It does not mean like tech apocalypse like it doesn't

mean there'll be no more venture investments, no more software that acrews value, no more exits. Like it

doesn't mean any of that. It means we it means that more users we'll all have more users than ever and we have to figure out slightly more meaningful ways

to monetize them. But like you know in an old world where an app would have like had 100,000 users like maybe it's it's millions because because the actual

thing can be accessed much more easily and used much more easily. So I I don't know. Um, but but it but it's such a

know. Um, but but it but it's such a weird world where like when something that was historically very expensive goes to like nominally free, like what does that mean? I mean, it means a lot

of things and I don't have all the answers. Um, but right now I'm I'm kind

answers. Um, but right now I'm I'm kind of enjoying this like moment of creation where it just feels like for the first time I can create almost anything I can

think of. and to me posting about it and

think of. and to me posting about it and I am conscious that if I like post too many crazy things and I don't break down how I did it, people will just be like she's just like bragging about crazy stuff like um like what is this girl up

to? But but I I I I'm I'm slightly more

to? But but I I I I'm I'm slightly more bullish that it's an eye openening thing that there's value in it as like an eye openening thing where people see the real world connection like oh this like

if I did that music thing it'd be like you know wow like this is changing how this lady eats breakfast with her kids like that's not the AI that's a beautiful version of AI reality I hadn't

considered. So, so that's the goal I

considered. So, so that's the goal I think in sharing, but I am cognizant that not everyone sees like an example I do and feels like, oh, now I can just do that. I I don't think it's actually what

that. I I don't think it's actually what I'm trying to achieve. If I was trying to achieve that, I feel like I have to release a lot more information, which again, like you, I'm not opposed to doing, but I just don't even know if I

release all the information, it' still be like people be like, "Okay, I'm still like, what am I supposed to do here?"

So yeah, it's an interesting um challenge to I guess the group subgroup of people who are playing really heavily right now. Like how can we break down

right now. Like how can we break down these walls? But but I also don't feel

these walls? But but I also don't feel like there's any walls. I think the other meta philosophy I have that you you touched on once is like this stuff is coming so fast and so furiously to

everyone that I don't feel like I'm like doing some version of AI bragging like whatever I talk about today is going to be like so is going to be like commoditized so fast and available in like a more convenient way from open AI

or something soon. Um

so I think yeah it's worth just remembering that we're all like weeks into this. you are

I think you said you're like five or six weeks in, right? So

So it's like So yeah, so I don't think there's any form of gatekeeping. People

are you know the other reality which also kind of funny about this is um and I mentioned at the top like I had an open terminal until like six months ago or something as a founder of a tech

company. Like one challenge for me is

company. Like one challenge for me is I'm not extremely technical. So like I don't want to launch like some thing out in the world that like has some security vulnerability and some people are like my kids were watching the YouTube thing

and then all of a sudden there was like a guy like using our TV or something. I

don't know. Like I I I I um like this is a moment where is it workable enough for me to use in my house? Yeah. Do I know that it's like could be enterprisegrade software that rolls out to millions of

households? Like probably not.

households? Like probably not.

[laughter] You know, if I was willing to guess like probably not. So, so I think that also prevent presents a kind of interesting like uh equation where people are like just release it. It's

like well you know I could but it might break like when you use it the way you're trying to use it or it might have some vulnerability and I like worry about the um you know import of that.

[snorts] Yeah. Yeah. We're all it's all an in

Yeah. Yeah. We're all it's all an in between phase I feel like right now.

Maybe that's a good transition to the last couple questions I had for you, which is around envisioning a more mature phase. You touched on a little

mature phase. You touched on a little bit your sort of desire to maintain like familial sovereignty and not be overly

beholden to platforms. It seems like that is the way it's going to go by default. Like I imagine Gemini families and Claude families and JGBT families that just get locked in the way

that we are with Apple devices or whatever today, but probably even more because as you said the the level of information and the value of that context is going to go up over time.

Even if the models and products are like pretty directly comparable, it's still just wow there's a lot in there and there's compounding returns for an

individual with one platform. Uh, is

there any way that that do you see a way that realistically aside from sort of people that have a values-based or or dare I say like ideological reason to want to do that? Do you think anybody else does that or or is that just kind

of the world that we're headed toward?

I my most bullish opinion on people not just ending up like like the way you s said like an

anthropic family or open eye family would be economic. So, I think that, you know, most humans are very uh money

motivated. They're they're not money

motivated. They're they're not money motivated. That's not the right way of

motivated. That's not the right way of putting it. Like they're they're trying

putting it. Like they're they're trying to save where they can get, you know, they're they don't want to overspend. I

think this and so when you imagine progressing down this path where the models they they start getting so good, they all start getting so good that the improvements stop mattering. I mean,

we're almost there. like we're almost there. We're like, do I need Opus 4.7?

there. We're like, do I need Opus 4.7?

Like I don't know. Like Opus 4.6 is so good. So, I know that it'll always be

good. So, I know that it'll always be thrilling to get a little bit more utility and smartness and stuff, but when you play it forward and a lot of the models are so good and especially when we start getting some open source

models that rival some of these models we're playing with now, my my most bullish thesis would be that people start penciling it out and as more people kind of kind of come online and

and there's some historical precedents for this where like you know when people coming online to cell phone usage or to um to electricity usage going back like

industrial revolution priorities shift where even if openi or cloud or something is offering just the most convenient way of using this stuff and family memory and family health and all

these features that they're definitely going to roll out all these stuff some people be like okay but like I'm on the hook for like three or 4 hundred bucks a month to like kind of have my family

living in the future but maybe if I buy like you know Mac Mini already is only 600 bucks like um and probably can come down uh and maybe you know so when we

get to a what there's some like nexus point when we get to a place where it costs the average family to live their best AI life and it costs them like I'm

guessing somewhere between $2 and $500 a month minimum for all those family members to like really be chewing the amount of tokens they want to chew and then there's that at that nexus point

unfortunately for some of these big companies they'll also then an option to be like or you buy this box and you have all your privacy and you can do a lot of this on your own. That's

my that that's kind of what I want. I'm

going to admit that like that part of me gueststimating at this is that I also want that future to happen and I have no hate or malice in my heart for opening our entropic. I think they've all given

our entropic. I think they've all given us some incredible gifts here. But I I would hope that people don't just feel like, "Yep, in order to live my best I life with my family and kids and have

access to be competitive in all the workforce and the future of the world, I have three options. Google, open, I hope that they feel like I have a fourth option." And not only that, I feel

option." And not only that, I feel economic pressure to at least consider this fourth option because it's like a new it's like that's why I'm comparing it to cell phones is like the average

American family with like two teenagers like between the two parents and the two teenagers like they're starting they're spending hundreds of dollars a month.

So, and they don't view it as a nice to have. It's like you got to have that you

have. It's like you got to have that you get to to call your job and like whatever. I think we're going to start

whatever. I think we're going to start at some point we're going to feel that way about this AI expense. Like every

American family is starting to spend $100 a month to be at the frontier of like using AI and if you don't do that your kids are falling behind and your your husband can't do his work well at

work and whatever else and I just hope I I hope and predict that at that point point there'll be a a big uptick in adoption of like doing local and um and

it won't only because people are like privacy sovereignty it'll be just like I I don't want to pay 400 bucks a month and have all my you know and and be beholden like to one company. I don't

know. It's a prediction and a hope [laughter] because I like that idea. I I like the idea that people have a takeaway for their kind of like independence and that they don't just feel like if I I don't

like the idea that if you that there's some future where some teenager who's in a family who can't afford the $400 a month is like doing less well on their homework or like you know I think we're

going to find escape routes and one of them will be local hardware and stuff.

Yeah. You remind me a little bit of a mod stock there who has this idea of satisficing and building out the he's trying to literally just create the models that will do that for people. So

I think a version of that for sure is coming. How about

coming. How about one more vision question and maybe an advice opportunity for you to give some advice. Of course the people that are

advice. Of course the people that are working at these companies building the frontier of AI right now don't have time for families to generalize a bit. So,

they're probably not using AI much with their kids since they mostly don't have them. Um, what do you think they might

them. Um, what do you think they might be missing?

What advice, what sort of blind spots would you warn them about or try to, you know, for your make sure they meet your needs if nothing else effectively? Um,

what thoughts would you give them? And

then maybe you could also shape that a little bit into a device. They've got

this OpenAI at least has this sort of next form factor, right, that we've been hearing. I'm very interested in what

hearing. I'm very interested in what your dream might be if you could put like a spec or a wish list together for them, what that might look like.

So, on the on the first question, what might people not be thinking about as it relates to AI with children? You know,

uh I know I know people have tons of opinions on Elon and stuff, but but I I do think that I I something that he talks about with like we need the AI to be truthful.

I I do hope we would all agree on that.

Um because if you start to think about AI as it relates to education, it's really important like it's really important that if a kid asks a question

about history or something that they even if it offers various um like also inputs on what other people have said and stuff that at core it can just

answer the question like you you need it at core to answer the question and and have that be have that be like an accurate answer. So, so I do think we

accurate answer. So, so I do think we all need to be thinking of of this and when you think about a child, it just becomes even more poignant because as an adult we know that there's we have all

these filters in our brain of information and we will also like also as adults are using MI models we will sometimes check multiple models. Well,

do you know what a kid is like not going to do that like you know what I mean?

whatever is especially if they're on a device or anything else, they might literally not have that option. But it's

kind of wild that we we know that we can get different reactions and different things from different models. And so

we'll actually like sometimes test them, but that that shouldn't be necessary. We

need to really like kind of gather up as humans and be like, we need these models to be accurate and because that our children will be like directly informed by them. So that's like a kind of a call

by them. So that's like a kind of a call to arms on on that. the um the the the form factor stuff. You know, for sure I

I am not a screen hater as a parent. I I

think much more about what our children are doing. I want my children to be like

are doing. I want my children to be like producers, not consumers. It's like kind of like a core paradigm. But in order to produce things in the modern world, like you're not going to never touch a computer. I'm sorry. Like you don't

computer. I'm sorry. Like you don't you're going to touch computers. So I

think more about just like how to make sure they are producing person, a creative producing person. [snorts] But

what does that mean for the form factors we introduce our kids to? Because we do know that screens kind of not used well can be super addictive even for us, even for adults, especially maybe for adults.

I think we were talking earlier about voice. I think voice for early and young

voice. I think voice for early and young kids is super crucial. Um my husband has three older kids, so we actually have seven total kids. I'm like dropping at

the the last moment here. Um, so the older kids are 12, 14, and 16. So, I

I've it's been fascinating to me watch how watching how the older kids use tech because they certainly use it a lot more than the little kids, like themselves.

And the 12-year-old, for instance, uh she almost exclusively talks to her devices. Like, she even her Apple Watch,

devices. Like, she even her Apple Watch, I'm like, I don't do this. Like, she

just almost exclusively talks to all of her devices. So, I'm kind of seeing this

her devices. So, I'm kind of seeing this like we really have to make sure the device is that that speaking to devices is like really locked in. And obviously

that's like way off to the races. But th

those are my general observations. I I

really do the thing that I might try to make myself and I don't know if it's an end- all beall, but the thing I might kind of try to hack on myself for my own four and 5-year-old is a device that has

an LLM in it, you know, so they can interact that uses voice and has a camera. So the camera is not to look

camera. So the camera is not to look around at their whole world and record their day or anything. It' literally be for taking pictures or taking videos and then interacting with the LLM about

that. So that's what I'm going to try to

that. So that's what I'm going to try to build. I'm sure someone like, you know,

build. I'm sure someone like, you know, with resources could build uh something even better or crazier. But the for core form factor that I imagine I want to try to hack on is like 5-year-old walking

around is able to have a teeny screen that doesn't do much. Like it's not a touch screen. It just so you can see

touch screen. It just so you can see what you're looking at. take a photo and then be like, "What is this?" or

interact with the um you know, with AI about a photo or video they took. That

to me feels like a really cool unlock on like walking around the physical world and interacting with it without needing a human or sorry, without needing an adult, I guess. Also human. So that's

what I want to make for little kids that once a kid has a phone in their pocket, they don't they don't need that, you know. Um, but this is like the before a

know. Um, but this is like the before a kid has a phone in their pocket device that I would love to have that I'm going to try packing on. So, those are my thoughts right now.

Do you have a thought on what this means for employment? Like I have to say

for employment? Like I have to say recently it has become sometimes difficult to come up with tasks that I

would delegate to a human when I've got all these cloud code tabs sitting right here. I'm like I should at least try it

here. I'm like I should at least try it with the AI first and then more often than not the AI does pretty well and I'm like h I guess I don't need to delegate that to a human anymore. It feels like it's happening that that phenomenon of

do I need a person? I'm like very much questioning it in all honesty. Are you

questioning it? Would you still have a role leaving budget aside and whatnot?

Would a human EA like add value to your life still or has the AI crowded them out?

So I have a real world example. We we we work with an accountant in the Philippines. So like you know through

Philippines. So like you know through one of these services um that helps people find employees you know in the Philippines basically. And I I actually

Philippines basically. And I I actually have done that for years like almost 10 years and and so so so I think it's a natural and kind of scary question to

ask of like you know does that job AI now my answer for now for for now is definitely no because they handle they

handle payments like um there there's so many things I just gave that example of Claire like being like Jesse said it was urgent so I sent her the email as her obviously I can't I feel like I cannot give like thanking cred credentials, the

ability to wire money and stuff to an agent that has any kind of ability to think like that. So, I think that so I have no intention for instance of like

not having that person that I just mentioned like have a job, but does there's a lot of types of work where like where you absolutely can do the

work with AI now. So there there's like it's unquestionable like we can't like we can't pretend that there's like no impact on the labor force like kind of here or coming like in the very near

future. I think there's so many

future. I think there's so many I I I really like history. So, I really like thinking back to other like kind of moments in time where everyone was really scared about like similar types

of things. And electricity, like the

of things. And electricity, like the birth of electricity was famously like this um and famously fear-mongered in very similar ways to what we hear about

with AI. Like people were like, "Can you

with AI. Like people were like, "Can you imagine sending lightning bolts down your streets? Like that's what they're

your streets? Like that's what they're going to do." like like literally like true like fear-mongering of electricity coming into homes is basically like death juice like coming into homes like there there's like old articles like

written like that, you know, like [sighs and gasps] and so I think that I think humans are extremely good at like finding new places for ourselves to stay

busy. Like we're we're endlessly talking

busy. Like we're we're endlessly talking about not wanting to work anymore while finding more work for ourselves than ever. Like I actually find it very

ever. Like I actually find it very hilarious about humans. Like we're like always like the end of every technology in every journey is us sitting on a beach and every time we get a new technology we're like oh my gosh this is

so cool. I'm going to work 40 hours a

so cool. I'm going to work 40 hours a week like a day now. Like so it's like very hilarious to me like how we always think there's this other end point and we always like work more than ever. So I

I just all of those thoughts are held in my head. It makes you very optimistic

my head. It makes you very optimistic medium term and a little nervous shorter term because it it does feel inevitable that there'll be a certain groups of

people who feel lost and listless because part parts of their work that they spent entire careers getting good at are like better in cloud code, you

know, like so I feel I feel empathy on a human level for individuals who will experience that over the like five to 10 years while also feeling incredibly

optimistic that in the same way that we would not be like you know what we shouldn't have done like all use electricity like like it's so fundamental to like the moving forward of the human race and bringing people

out of poverty and bringing people out of like you know out of bad situations that like I think we'll look back and feel that way about AI but that doesn't mean a lot of people weren't put out of

work when electricity came along. there

was the lamp lighters and I mean like it's like you know we've got um those individual stories are always going to be hard and hopefully we can find a way

to you know ease that burden um but I'm long-term optimistic very long-term optimistic this has been outstanding I think you are on one of the great arcs right now

of anyone that I'm aware of so definitely will continue to follow recommend others follow anything in closing that we didn't touch on you want to people with

um I find that I've meet so many people especially now that I'm talking more about this who are very nervous about trying things and I would I I can't like stress enough people would be like oh

she was a tech background and people always making excuses why someone else is playing with something and they're not just have fun it's like as adults we are all given a new set of blocks like

like don't worry about what other people are doing go have fun don't worry so much do basic things to protect yourself. But like I just want to see

yourself. But like I just want to see more people playing and less people like talking about their fear about playing because this is like one of the most fun times of technology to live through in

my experience. And I just want more I

my experience. And I just want more I wish more people were experiencing the fun part. Um and I feel like they're

fun part. Um and I feel like they're only held back by just like one little piece of fear like they don't know enough or they're not, you know, technical enough. And uh I don't think

technical enough. And uh I don't think that's true. So more people playing.

that's true. So more people playing.

Yeah, I love it. I think that's a great observation. AI rewards play more than

observation. AI rewards play more than perhaps any other technology and it's a great opportunity for us all to tap into our inner child and really continue on our own personal lifelong learning

journeys. Incredibly wellstated and a

journeys. Incredibly wellstated and a super inspiring example from you to everybody overall. Again, I think it's

everybody overall. Again, I think it's just fantastic and I'm going to be trying to take some of your examples and put them into practice in my own family life. I'm sure many will be following in

life. I'm sure many will be following in your footsteps before we know it. Jesse

Jay, thank you so much for being part of the cognitive revolution.

Thank you so much.

[music] A new set of blocks.

[music] Woke up this morning with a question on my mind. [music]

my mind. [music] Said it to my helper and it hummed a little rhyme.

What's that flower called? And how do bridges [music] stay up tall?

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[music] a tower, build a bridge, and see how far we go. We got a new set of blocks.

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We got a new [music] set of blocks.

So, go have fun.

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