Uber CEO: I Have To Be Honest, AI Will Replace 9.4 Million Jobs At Uber!

You come to Uber, you're going to work your ass off. And if you're not performing, we're going to let you know.

>> But do you ever worry that they might not be able to deal with the truth?

>> Then they can leave because the most important skill in life is the skill of working hard. And when you see the top

working hard. And when you see the top athletes, Ronaldo, Michael Jordan, of course they're talented. But the thing that's different about them is they work their asses off. And that's a learned

skill. That's not something you're born

skill. That's not something you're born with. You may be smarter, more talented,

with. You may be smarter, more talented, etc. But I'm not going to let anyone out me. with that mentality. When you joined

me. with that mentality. When you joined Uber, it was losing 3 billion per year.

Now it generates 8.5 billion in free cash flow every year. But it seems that you were forged in such a way that you were going to be relentless.

>> Yeah. And it really started with being born in Iran with the Islamic Revolution in 1978. We were not safe there. And I

in 1978. We were not safe there. And I

remember at one point we had these revolutionary guards come into the backyard and bullets went through our living room. So my family came to the US

living room. So my family came to the US to rebuild their lives.

>> You were 8 9 years old.

>> Yeah. And it really destroyed my dad.

Sorry me.

It's tough for me to talk about it.

It's okay.

All right, let me try again. Seeing that

has put me on a road where I just wanted to make my family proud. So I studied bioelect electrical engineering and then my first job was investment banking and I got to see the process of big companies being built and then I had the

opportunity to take over Expedia >> and in your 12 years as CEO Expedia sales increased from 2.1 billion to 8.8 8 billion and you were the highest paid CEO of a US tech company >> and I left it all behind to get over

>> and I want to get into practical company building how you would get that company to work hard and create a culture of continuous improvement and all that stuff but there's alien that's arrived amongst us which is AI now driving I

think is one of the biggest employees in the world like as a profession >> I mean we've got 9 and a half million drivers and couriers on our platform >> those drivers careers that you have will be out of work being honest about the

situation what do the 9 million people Guys, I've got a quick favor to ask you.

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better. Thank you so much for being part of this journey. Means the world. And uh

yeah, let's do this.

Darren, you lead one of the most consequential, interesting, talked about companies of my generation. It's worth

hundreds of billions of dollars last time I checked and it's a it's a company that I use every single day.

>> Thank you.

>> I've looked through your story. You were

the CEO of Expedia.

>> Mhm. at one point.

>> You're currently the CEO of Uber and you've turned that company from a a lossmaking company to a highly profitable company and one that has continued to be successful through such

a great time of transition. I

your story starts in a very interesting way >> and I was you know when I start doing the research for guests sometimes I I I think I come in with some kind of presumption that I grew up in California, you went to Stanford etc.

>> But that is not the case. Can you take me to that earliest context so I can understand how and why you are the way that you are?

>> Uh quite the quite the starting questions but but but I'll try. I I

think that for me the events that shaped my life and maybe a part of who I am really started with my being born in

Iran and Iran at the time was modernizing becoming a modern society and my family built a pretty big

industrial company that that everyone was quite proud of in Iran. We lost all

of that with the revolution in 1978 and my family had to come to the US to rebuild their lives.

>> You had to come to the US.

>> We were not safe there. One of my uncles actually was um a cabinet member of the Shaw who had just been toppled. And at

one point, we had uh uh these revolutionary guards come into the backyard. They were actually going after

backyard. They were actually going after our neighbor's house. Uh and one of their guns went off and bullets went through our living room. Uh shattered

the glass in the living room. And at

that point, my mom's like, "We're not safe being here." So, we had to come to the US. And I do think that event to

the US. And I do think that event to some extent has shaped not just me but my family in that the rebuilding of our

lives um of our uh economic lives to some extent where we're all trying to rebuild what we lost in Iran. Do

>> you look back on that and and can you identify any sort of fingerprints that were left on you from that time that have defined you in a business capacity?

I think at my core I never feel safe, you know, when the the experience of losing everything and and for the kids I I tell you it was fine for the kids, but seeing my parents lose everything and

and it really destroyed my dad. You

know, it really his losing his value to the world as he

saw it um really hurt his inner being.

And I do think to some extent seeing that has put me on a road where I want to rebuild. I want to make my family

to rebuild. I want to make my family proud. But at the same time I never that

proud. But at the same time I never that feeling of having the floor, you know, the rug pulled out of you of building everything. That's a feeling that never

everything. That's a feeling that never leaves you. I think I think Americans

leaves you. I think I think Americans underestimate what this place represents in its ideals, right? which is if you build

ideals, right? which is if you build something it's yours. There's a rule of law can't be taken away from you. That

is not true for the majority of the population of the world. And so I think for me there's a drive to build and at

the same time never ever ever taking anything for granted, never being satisfied because the minute you take things for granted then that rug can be pulled out from under you. on your

father. There was a moment where he a couple of years, I think six years, where he got trapped in Iran and wasn't granted an exit visa.

>> Yes.

>> And I imagine at that time your mother was raising you alone here in New York City.

>> Yeah. In Terry Town, New York, 45 minutes north of New York City, but she she went from a life of never having to work to she had to become a salesperson

to make some money and she did it all herself and she really stepped up. So I

think it shaped us. It was difficult in some ways. I I miss my dad. I remember

some ways. I I miss my dad. I remember

when he left, he was like a giant compared to me. And then when he came back, it was my sophomore year at college and he still saw me as a kid.

And so he wanted to drive me to uh to college and and he did. And then he's like he wanted to hang out. I'm like,

"Dad, can you get out of here? I want to hang out with my kids." I was with my friends. I was excited to go back to

friends. I was excited to go back to school. And it was just it it was sad

school. And it was just it it was sad seeing the change, you know, of a man who had gotten older. Uh his time in Iran was really tough on him. He had a heart attack on the plane coming back.

So he was a diminished person to some extent. Um but

extent. Um but it was great that I had many many years with him, you know, since then.

>> When he was away, when he was trapped around and wasn't able to exit, >> your mother Lily >> Yes.

referenced how you didn't mention him much, but when he returned, you broke down in tears.

>> Leah, no, don't be.

He was a very stoic man.

It's okay.

Sorry. He

passed away a couple years ago, so it's tough for me to talk about it.

It's okay.

All right, let me try again. He was a very stoked man. Um, so he kept it all inside and we were taught to do the same thing.

Uh, but we wrote letters together and they're beautiful letters. He wrote

poetry. So I communicated with him in Iran. But there's

Iran. But there's um expression of feelings and kind of uh frustration uh

were not something that my family did.

you know, you just dealt with a situation. And so, yeah, I I think I

situation. And so, yeah, I I think I suffer from uh over stoism and then breaking down every once in a while, as you just saw.

>> It's a a familiar story of the the men that I've interviewed that grew up with that kind of sort of emotional composure enforced and um modeled to them.

>> Yeah. I don't know if it was enforced like it wasn't actually. Yeah. like we

were very loving family but my father was very humble. Um he did not believe that just because you're in a position of power you should kind of project that power you should communicate that to

everyone and there was a stoicism inside my family which is don't complain you know um so they it was it was a weird combination of stoicism and love at the

same time.

>> How does um cuz I'm not a father yet.

>> Yes.

>> But I I'm approaching that.

Congratulations. Almost.

>> Yeah. Almost. Yeah. I've just proposed to my fiance and we're, you know, we're in the process now of, you know, bringing children into the world hopefully. And it's one of the things I

hopefully. And it's one of the things I think a lot about, which is how do I stop my own stoicism, passing on to my children.

>> First of all, fatherhood, parenthood is is so humbling. You have such a picture in your mind as to how you're going to raise your family, what your kids are

going to be like. And they just become their own people and it's such a beautiful process to see. And at first there's this alarm. Oh my god, I'm

losing control. You know, I've I've done

losing control. You know, I've I've done everything. You've planned everything.

everything. You've planned everything.

This is how I'm going to raise kids. But

then real life gets in the way. It is

absolutely exhausting. So, you probably execute on 80% of your plan and you're 20% imperfect because you are exhausted and you're working and you got a career.

Uh, or often some people do. And at some point, you see these kids kind of move off into this completely unexpected territory. And there's a point for me it

territory. And there's a point for me it was like I I'm a bit of a control freak.

So, I'm like, this is not good. They're

kind of doing their own thing. But then

you you step back and you're like this is it's absolutely gorgeous what's happening. So the advice that I would

happening. So the advice that I would just give in terms of being a parent is just spend the time with the kids. You

know it is that is the magic is not what you do um or or the particular tactics but it's the investment in them and the time spent with them and the rest you

know you can't control but what you can control is kind of that connection. H I

um speaking of children, I went back and looked through lots of different photos of where you lived and where you grew up to try and get a picture of your world in an early context and all these photos look incredibly incredible. I think that

was your fifth birthday.

>> Oh wow. I had hair back then.

>> You had a lot of hair.

>> My mom loved to dress us up in like little doll outfits.

>> I can tell another one you lord. Look at

that. I'm definitely not going to do that to my kids. age four in London.

Another photo of you.

>> You and your cousins there. Another

photo.

>> Family was everywhere for us.

>> And again, another one with a a beautiful haircut there.

>> It was a great childhood. It was

amazing.

>> I spoke to your mom, Lily.

>> I hope uh well, how it go.

We'll see. She said, I'll play the audio file just so people can hear it. when he

was very little, he told me that he wants to do something important in the world and he said becoming wealthy is

not his priority but making a change is >> I can't say I remember that conversation but the

one of my early experiences that really imprinted on me was we went to visit one of my dad's It's factories, family factories. And my dad was in charge of

factories. And my dad was in charge of designing factories, building them, operating them. And the respect

operating them. And the respect that that population, the factory had for him and the visit and how excited they were that his family was visiting

was just really cool. And and the way that he treated he knew everyone's name.

He treated them with such respect. It

just it really imprinted on me. There

was this care. It wasn't the boss is coming and there's fear. And so for me like that ability to build a life where

you have impact on a lot of people but it's it's positive kind of building impact. You have the broad respect of of

impact. You have the broad respect of of these folks. It really imprinted on me.

these folks. It really imprinted on me.

So I w I always wanted you know when we came to the states making money was important. I don't want to kind of BS and say like, oh, I didn't care about it because we lost

everything. And so my first job was

everything. And so my first job was like, invest in banking. What's the goal of investment banking? Have fun, but make money, right? And so that was a

priority for me. But then as I matured in life, as I knew I had safety in terms of, okay, yes, I know I can do that. I

can make money. I can provide for my family. I can support my mom and dad.

family. I can support my mom and dad.

Then building kind of an enterprise, having that feeling that I saw with my father, that connection with his team uh was something that became really important

to me.

>> When you came to New York, you were 8, 9 years old.

>> 9 years old. Yes.

>> If I'd asked you at 9 years old, when you arrived to New York, what you wanted to do when you're older, what would you have said?

>> I have no idea. I want to make my dad proud.

That was it. I wasn't kind of motivated for specific target at all. I just

wanted to make my family proud.

>> Why I want to make my dad proud?

He's always been an important figure in uh in my life, you know, that there's this um and and I think part of it is that I never got to know him that well

as an individual, you know, cuz he was obviously when I was younger, he was working all the time. So, he would show up once in a while for dinner, etc. We always had family dinners together and

then he went away and then I worked. So,

I never really got to know the person that he was, but I don't know there there's kind of this sense of duty.

There's there's a hope that, you know, he's he's somewhere or maybe he's not someplace. But that making my father proud has always been a strong current undercurrent in my life.

>> So, you're 9 years old, you've arrived in New York City. Um, you do end up going off to college sometime later.

>> Yes.

>> I went to Brown University, studied engineering there. How do you think

engineering there. How do you think about that choice at that time and how determinant that was of your trajectory in your life? That decision to go to that university and study that subject.

>> My father always said, "You can do anything in your life as long as either you're a doctor or an engineer." And I picked engineering. I just loved the

picked engineering. I just loved the problemolving aspect of engineering and all the layers of equations etc. and those equations being able to represent something in real life and then

magically that something in real life following what it should theoretically like the problem solving aspect of engineering fascinated me. I absolutely

loved it. Uh and I think it serves me to this day.

>> Engineers make good CEOs.

>> Great CEOs. If you step back, companies are just machines, right?

They're they're machines that are run by people and over a period of time you actually try to automate some of the stuff that the people do and then you send the people off to do new stuff that

can't be automated like we are rulesbased like it's it's an organism and it's a machine at the same time and to some extent the job of the the the

CEO is engineering how do I set up the company to achieve the goals that you know I set for shareholders set for my board sets sets for it. It's a giant

engineering problem and and to me that's like fascinating the putting together the pieces to get to what you perceive to be the goal and one of the really important things is you got to pick the right goals.

>> Mhm.

>> Um that is one giant problem solving engineering challenge and it's one of the most fascinating parts of my job.

>> I want to get into that the the practical company building how you organize um an organization to be a well functioning machine setting goals and all that stuff. Um after after college you go into investment banking for a

period of time.

>> Yeah I worked there for eight years in risk arbitrage to begin with and then mergers and acquisition advisory work as well.

>> And that experience I I was reading taught you about betting on people.

>> Yes.

>> Versus other what do you mean by betting on people and why is that important?

>> It was uh it was actually a lesson that I learned from Herbert Allen who was running Allen and Company at the time.

It it was the the uh the Allen's uh family started the company. And he

always told me and and at the time I didn't really listen to him. He he

always said, "Do always bet on people. Companies go.

There are good companies, bad companies, but great people stay great all the time." And one of the things that made

time." And one of the things that made Allan and Company was really special.

You know, investment banking can be a doggy talk sport, but Allan and company really cultivated relationships with

people whom they perceived to be great both in terms of potential and in terms of character. And of all the investment

of character. And of all the investment banks, that loyalty, that making a bet on a person and then staying with them through their whole careers is a pattern

of how that place works. Uh, and it's definitely something that that I learned there.

>> What is it about one's character that makes them qualify as a great person?

>> You look for success, honor, loyalty, people who will tell you what they're going to do, whether it's good or bad, and then follow through on their promises.

>> Hard work. I'm surprised that wasn't mentioned as >> well. That comes with success. Okay.

>> well. That comes with success. Okay.

Right. Talent and hard work. You put it those two together.

>> And why did you leave Allen in company?

>> I left Allen because I met Barry Diller.

Uh, he was a client of mine. We got to meet in a big kind of deal uh unfriendly uh hostile tender

offer for Paramount at the time. It's

that there's another one happening I guess for Paramount uh now as we speak.

And he was the one person I thought I was going to be Allen Lifer. I thought I was going to be there forever. My older

brother Cave is an Allen Lifer. He has

it's the only job he's had in his life.

But Barry was the one person who I thought, you know, if I get a chance to work for this person, I'm I'm I'm going to jump at it. And I did.

>> Why? Why Barry?

>> He He's spectacular. I mean, he was spectacular. He is spectacular. A doer,

spectacular. He is spectacular. A doer,

you know. He he I I met him in a circumstance where he lost. It was it was this giant hostile tender offer.

Bids going back and forth between uh the the winner Viacom and and Barry.

Ultimately, Barry stepped away and we were planning an announcement, you know, and you can imagine all these like fancy PR people sitting around a table. How do we

present a loss as a win, right?

>> So, he bid for a company. He didn't get it.

>> He didn't get it and and he walked away.

He didn't get it cuz he walked away, which in hindsight was a was a mistake.

He could have paid more. Uh and then in the release where he walked away, uh I think the release was they won, we lost.

next. And he was a constant motion machine like day one, we lost, next, what's next? Let's go. And that's the

what's next? Let's go. And that's the kind of person I wanted to work for.

>> In business, losing is part of the game.

>> Absolutely. Absolutely. But then calling it out, you know, not bullshitting, not like, oh, we tried our best and the circumstances. They won, we lost. Next,

circumstances. They won, we lost. Next,

it's okay.

>> Does it matter how you lose?

>> Absolutely it does. that absolutely it does it it's and and I find companies guilty of two things like one is ignoring losses like papering over

losses etc right and then sometimes being obsessive about the loss you know inspecting it what happened let's do a

summary let's meet what went wrong etc and and you know for me it's somewhere in the middle which is recognize why you lost recognize that you lost say it

because it's important to say it, analyze it, but then move on. Like,

let's move on. And the next time you hope to have learned some kind of judgment to avoid that kind of a loss, but it doesn't mean you're going to avoid losing at all. Like, if you're not

taking shots, you're not missing. You're

you're not losing. So, for me, it's constantly moving and taking your shots, losing, learning next, losing, learning next. That constant motion is what I

next. That constant motion is what I want to see. Um that constant motion and learning is what excites me.

>> This is business advice but also life advice generally because a lot of people um who I meet who come up to me and ask me questions about things often ask questions that sound a lot like what you just said. It's dealing with rejection,

just said. It's dealing with rejection, dealing with taking an L, and how that L then stays with them sometimes for a decade, sometimes for 15 years, and and holds them back, hurts their confidence,

means that they don't take it any more shots, and this can cause a sort of a downward confidence spiral.

>> Totally. And and listen, I'm I'm talking a big game, but I would tell you in my personal life, I can't deal with rejection. I have a really hard time

rejection. I have a really hard time dealing with rejection. Professional

life, no problem whatsoever. So it's

like in the end we're all humans after all.

>> You have a a difficulty dealing with rejection in your personal >> very much. Yeah.

>> What kind of rejection?

>> Any kind of rejection conflict like it's it's something that has been uh that I fought my whole life which is because I was one of the younger cousins because I

was a youngest brother. I just kind of didn't have rights.

So I was I went with the flow. And going

with the flow means you're going with the current etc. I didn't cause trouble and that has followed me in my personal life. In my professional life, I don't

life. In my professional life, I don't have as much trouble there. I guess my professional life to some extent is a mask because I get to be aggressive. I

get to lose, etc. It's something that Sid, my wife, has really helped me with, but it is something in my personal life that generally I'm conflict avoidant.

>> You're conflict avoidant in your personal life. Interesting.

personal life. Interesting.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Hm. That's not

good in a relationship.

>> No. No. That's why that's why Sid's helping me out. I'm much better now. I'm

much better. But it's

>> it's when I take those issues on, I have to fight myself.

>> There's some core, you know, if if you and I were having an issue. Yeah.

>> And I was sitting down with you and saying, "Hey, I'm not I'm not happy about X or Y." I can feel there's a core of me saying, "Just let it go." But

that's how resentment builds and that's how relationships um over a long period of time start moving the wrong way. So

it is something that is at my core but I actively fight uh and I'm getting better at it but I'm still on a learning journey there. I'll tell you that

journey there. I'll tell you that >> eventually you go on to becoming the CEO of Expedia after um there was a couple of CEOs that came before you but you became the third and

>> took that company on. Very different job going from investment banking to being a CEO.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Now there there was a journey there because I went from banking to running deals and I knew that I knew that I I liked how companies

worked. The thing that I liked about

worked. The thing that I liked about investment banking was that I got to see a lot there. I got to see really smart

people, really cool companies build, but I couldn't go along with that journey. I

was jealous of the journey that these CEOs were were moving on. So then when M&A was a bridge to work at a company and build uh the company, I moved from

M&A to CFO, chief financial officer because that's uh that's that's to some extent finance, but it's also being the CEO's partner and helping the CEO build.

So I I always knew the direction that I want to go in, which is hey, at some point I want to actually be an operator.

And then I had the opportunity to take over Expedia. the CEO at the time, Eric

over Expedia. the CEO at the time, Eric Blashford, kind of said, "Yeah, big company thing, not for me." So, he resigned. And honestly, Barry didn't

resigned. And honestly, Barry didn't have an alternative. Who

>> was the owner of Barry was the CEO and chairman of IA, which was a parent company of what became Expedia, I travel. The head of IC Travel resigned.

travel. The head of IC Travel resigned.

I raised my hand. I said, "Maybe I could do it." Barry was desperate. He had no

do it." Barry was desperate. He had no one else. So he promoted me to be CEO of

one else. So he promoted me to be CEO of IA travel and IC travel was going through some difficult times. So we spun it off as at at Expedia. So that's when

I became the CEO of Expedia, the public company and I moved to the Netherlands of of uh Seattle.

>> In your job just before you took on that role as CEO, you were buying businesses.

So M&As, mergers and acquisitions, you were buying companies. Yes.

>> What are some of the companies that you bought?

>> Oh, we bought a lot of companies. Uh we

bought ticket master. Uh we bought match.com uh bought Expedia Hotels.com and and it was all about the theme that Barry and I

were uh fascinated with was the movement of commerce online. You know, it was it was during that uh time. It was the late late 90s, early 2000. And and we saw it

happening with our very own eyes really with home shopping, right? It was it's a flat screen. It was a television and you

flat screen. It was a television and you were offering products and people were calling up buying those products electronically and just the medium changed. The medium

changed from a TV screen to an internet screen and instead of calling you could use uh HTTP uh and so while the medium changed we

kind of saw this opportunity to take advantage of the of the change of platform. So match.com essentially in

platform. So match.com essentially in the olden days you know you had online dating but you would call a number and you'd be like my name is Da and I'm 6'2

and this you describe yourself and you hear other kind of uh recordings and you would get matched up based on someone who seemed nice >> and all of that just moved online. That

was what Batch.com was. Same thing with Ticket Master. You know in the olden

Ticket Master. You know in the olden days you would go to a Tower of Records.

Have you ever been to a Tower of Records? You're too Yeah. So there were

Records? You're too Yeah. So there were these things called record stores and they also had a desk where they would sell concert tickets. So you would either call for a concert ticket or you

would physically go and buy one.

Amazing. And there were lines, Tower Record lines. What's that?

Record lines. What's that?

>> And all of that exactly moved online.

And same thing with travel, right? You

would call a travel agent and so all of there was this movement of retail and phone commerce to online commerce. And

we identified the early players to make that shift and personals, ticketing, travel were the ones that we went with went for because at the time Amazon was

doing everything else like physical fulfillment. So what we were going for

fulfillment. So what we were going for were essentially electronic transactions that did not require physical fulfillment and that was travel because

you know it's a virtual good ticketing uh match.com which which was personal.

So there was a pattern around the madness so to speak but we went out and bought all these companies. It was a really great time.

>> I've got two questions that emerge there. One one is again I'm really

there. One one is again I'm really interested to understand how you would look for talent or how what how you think about what a great company is. Are

there like we we looking at the company culture? Were we looking at the

culture? Were we looking at the founders? Was there something else? Was

founders? Was there something else? Was

it the profitability? And the other one is just really intrigued as to what this period of your life and thereafter taught you about how to spot opportunity and transition cuz that is a

transitional moment of technology. And I

think there is a certain pattern recognition one can develop as to like know what to bet on in these moments of transition where there's huge skepticism. The internet's going to be

skepticism. The internet's going to be anything. It's a so two questions. One

anything. It's a so two questions. One

is like how do you spot great companies and then the second is like patterns in transition.

>> So they're I'd say that they're related which is um we would spot great companies just by observing who is taking the lead in these transitions. You know these transitions are difficult. You can't

predict exactly where things are going, how quickly they're going, how much should you invest, what's a return, what uh what the what the market how large is the market going to be. But there were

companies that were emerging as the leaders and we would just I just identify the leaders and call call these folks up and say I want to come in and talk to you. Like that was that was it.

And to some extent it's a self-reinforcing cycle which is yes the great management teams and the great founders were the ones who were able to

identify the opportunity and hit that opportunity faster than anyone else recognize that opportunity and execute on that opportunity faster than anyone else. So to some extent the companies

else. So to some extent the companies who were in the lead of course had the best management teams and had the best founding teams. And when those two things matched, that was when we jumped.

And then the the last thing I would tell you in terms of these pattern uh recognitions is that we never completed a successful deal

because we got the company cheap. We

actually overpaid for every single great company that we bought, but we overpaid based on what the market thought at the time, >> not what the reality turned out to be.

So I do think one of the kind of pieces of pattern recognition with me is just humans think about success and transitions in a linear way

because time is linear.

>> Would you someone that doesn't just they think of it going like this?

>> Yeah. You know it's it's the everything kind of moves this way, right? Your your

schedule is relatively linear, right?

It's you sleep seven hours a day. Like

your life is a linear life. But company

and company success and company momentum, especially with new technologies where if there's a technology that's truly better than the other technology within the virtual

world, there's absolutely no friction holding it back, the these companies move in an exponential way in terms of their growth and ultimately in terms of

their value. So whereas most people kind

their value. So whereas most people kind of see things they they when they project out to the to the future they see this what actually happens is this and that's where the opportunity is.

It's the it's the spread between the hockey stick and kind of the straight line.

>> Mhm.

>> Uh and it's very difficult for people to process that. And so that was, you know,

process that. And so that was, you know, those were the companies that we identified that hockey stick. And online

travel was a hockey stick, personals was a hockey stick, ticketing was a hockey stick.

>> I heard about the is it Jeans paradox?

>> Yes.

>> Which I think kind of sort of overlaps with what you're saying there. When

things become easier, faster, cheaper, people do them not incrementally more, but ex like exceptionally more often. I

mean that that's the definition of Uber and we can get to that at some point was uh originally it was built as a black cab service so to speak a black car service.

>> Can you tell me that's that where it came from? Because a lot of people

came from? Because a lot of people history has now moved forward that people have forgotten the story of how it came to be.

>> Now to some extent it was it well to a large extent it was that the founding was was before me but it was um uh Garrett Camp who was one of the founders had this idea uh and I think it was born

in Paris. It was like a snowy day in

in Paris. It was like a snowy day in Paris and they couldn't find a black car and it was a bunch of young young tech guys and like how cool would it be to like pick up my phone and call a black

car and that was the the core idea which is hey you can use your phone to call a black car he brought on uh Travis Kalanick Travis was the operator and and

the founder and to to your point and Jeban's paradox to some extent people thought well what's the size of the black car market place and it was a couple billion dollars or what's the

size of the taxi industry and it was uh more than a couple of billion dollars.

But what they didn't see at the time was that as you improve the con if you radically make something either more

convenient or cheaper, the market expands beyond how you calculate it. So

the Uber size and scale now is way beyond the original marketplace of black cars and or taxis. It it's the company the company today is a result of Jeban's paradox

>> timing.

We often um we often don't think much about the luck of timing. Luck is an interesting word to use, but how important timing is and other sort of foundational factors are in enabling a

company like Uber to exist. When you

think about the timing of Uber, what are the sort of the foundations that made it possible?

>> Well, it was it was a mobile revolution.

It was um mobile data technology, the iPhone coming together. In the early days, one of the geniuses of Tra of Travis was he would hire these market

managers who would be GMs of new cities that they would expand into. and they

would literally go to the city with a bag full of iPhones and give away iPhones to black car drivers to get them to come on Uber because at the time a lot of them didn't have you know they

they didn't have smartphones so to speak. So the onset of the of the

speak. So the onset of the of the smartphone was that kind of that beautiful magic of timing coming together and then aggressiveness of that

founding team to understand that there's a pattern here and I'm going to replicate that pattern all the world and raise as much capital as I have to to get there faster than anyone else. That

was the magic. But it was, you know, again, it's, yes, there's luck in there, but if that founding team hadn't been as aggressive in, you know, blit scaling,

which is a term that folks used, uh, all around the world, company wouldn't be what it is today.

>> Your transition out of investment banking into Expedia, CFO, then CEO. You

know, listen, there's a stereotype in business that um investment bankers and CFOs don't necessarily make the best CEOs because of >> they might stereotypically >> over financialize

>> over financial maybe be less riskaverse, maybe be less, you know, those kinds of things. And when I spoke to Barry, he

things. And when I spoke to Barry, he did say the following. I'll just play it for you because it's uh better coming from him. H

from him. H >> he was not an actual leader uh because he had uh his career up until then has

had been on the financial side of things. So he really had not yet had the

things. So he really had not yet had the experience or opportunity to manage people. That came in a difficult way to

people. That came in a difficult way to him and he mastered it. It didn't take him all that long. He mastered how to become a leader and he mastered how to take ultimate responsibility for a

company.

>> Yeah, it was um growing up under Barry was was and and by the way I I wouldn't be where I am today without not him as a mentor because he's not like a mentoring kind of guy but him as my leader

learning from him. But I say that the experience that really really shaped me uh as it relates to Expedia was I did come in as more of a financial leader.

our leadership at Expedia.com failed. I

hired a I had to fire the first uh person. I hired a second person.

person. I hired a second person.

Complete disaster. And so I was 0 for two in terms of hiring for our largest business. This business was 50% of our

business. This business was 50% of our profits and I was 0 for two in uh in hiring. And so I went to Barry and the

hiring. And so I went to Barry and the board and I said, 'Well, if I miss hiring the third person to run the biggest parts of our business, then you should fire me. Barry quickly

agreed, yes, of course we will. So I

said, obviously, I don't understand enough about the job to find the right person. So I think I've got to take the

person. So I think I've got to take the job myself for 6 months to a year to understand what what is it that the job entails for me to then go and and find

that person. And so for what turned out

that person. And so for what turned out to be I think it was five or six years I ran both the holding company Expedia Inc. which is a public company and I ran

Expedia.com. I was president of the

Expedia.com. I was president of the largest part of the company. That

experience taught me my operating troughs. That experience actually taught

troughs. That experience actually taught me how is it that you operate a company?

How is it that you run something? And

that's a very different skill set from capital allocation and you know all the financial uh wizardry that people embark on. That's important. But the what I

on. That's important. But the what I discovered was operating a company, leading a company, organizing it, operating it, setting up the goals,

getting the right team together. That's

the part of the job that I loved. So it

it it took me a while to get there. Like

my whole life, my whole early career was in this financial sector. which I

enjoyed, but I didn't find my true love, which is operations and running companies and running a technology company until way, way later in my

career. Uh, and I think to some extent

career. Uh, and I think to some extent now I've got both. I've got that financial part cuz it has to work. But

the operations and the leadership part of the business is something that that I love.

And watching Barry take responsibility, take shots, go against the grain, um, as aggressively as he consistently did, I think has made me a much better operator

than what the counterfactual would be if I had another boss.

>> Three months into that role, the head of HR told you that you were scaring people.

>> I've forgotten about that.

>> I think that was my job. Yeah.

What's the context there?

>> You know the context was that I first of all turnarounds in technology are really hard. Uh we were talking about the momentum thing where momentum

is positive. In the technology sector if

is positive. In the technology sector if momentum turns negative it is remarkably difficult to turn it around. You know

Yahoo is hanging on but it was the great company and you see where it is now.

It's brutal when you get it wrong. And

it always takes longer than you think.

And it goes to, you know, what I was talking about linear versus exponential.

Just like the curves up are exponential, curves down are exponential as well. The

first couple of years look bad, but they're not that bad.

>> But you know in your mind that 10 years from now, it's going to be a [ __ ] disaster. Mhm.

disaster. Mhm.

>> So what I saw with Expedia was a technology company whose technology engine was broken.

Codebase was old, had not been reinvested in. Technology leadership was

reinvested in. Technology leadership was coasting.

And that really alarmed me. And one of the things that I learned from Barry in terms of leadership is that when you know a bell is rung, when

when you when you see something, when you see a pattern, you have to act. You

can't wait for a second. So in my mind, once I figured out, oh my god, this really is a turnaround. This isn't like a company that I've got to tune. this

company if I don't move and move hard and fast is is going to start on that exponential decay curve. I had to move

quickly and at that point and and I am one of the skills that I learned from Barry is transparency. It's like

whenever he wanted to understand an issue he wanted to go to the source. He

didn't want a summary and it didn't matter where that source was. Is it a junior analyst or a president? He wanted

to hear from the source because what he didn't want to lose is lose the fidelity of the issue. You know, when there's an issue here and then it goes through the analyst and the associate and the vice

president and an SVP and whatever, by the time it's summarized for you as the CEO, it's just it's lost everything. And

usually their levels are like, "Hey, do we really want to tell them that? Why

don't we phrase it this way, etc." So your whole life as a CEO is kind of a it's a version of the world that your

team wants you to see. And if you got a good team, usually it has more to do with reality than not, but you are subject to your team and the information

flow that that gets to you. And so Barry always wanted to go to the source. He

would just cut through levels, cut through levels, get to the core of the idea, and then once he did, he would move and he would move

fast. And for me, I've kind of I have

fast. And for me, I've kind of I have held on to that, but I've also turned it the other way, which is one of the ways in which I can depend on

getting the real [ __ ] from you is my being honest with you, right? and and

human beings are good [ __ ] you know, kind kind of meter so so to speak.

And and when you're the CEO and you're talking to your staff and you're giving all the, you know, the business talk and we're doing this, but the last quarter

we had some certain challenges and this and that, they see you bullshitting them and so why the hell should they tell you the truth, right? if their if their boss isn't telling them the good stuff, why

should they give the good stuff back to the boss? So, for me, it it was almost

the boss? So, for me, it it was almost like a self-defense mechanism that as a boss, I'm going to tell you what's going on because that's the only way I can drag the hard truths back from you. Cuz

otherwise, you're going to filter yourself. You're gonna be like, I don't

yourself. You're gonna be like, I don't want Dart to know this happened.

>> But do you ever worry that they might not be able to deal with the truth?

>> Then they can leave. And and I think that that's so I think that's what my head of HR was saying. I was scaring the [ __ ] out of people cuz I'm like we have a real problem here and we've got to

come together and and I think that that you know there's a I was a good decision-m framework for me is um if I make a mistake where do I want to make

the mistake on? Right? And so if I want to if I'm going to heir with my company, I'm going to heir in telling the truth and potentially scaring someone away.

I'll take that because if that person doesn't want to face the truth, if he or she's not up for the fight, then they should go someplace else. They can have a good time. I'm sure they can have a

good career, etc. So for me as a leader, I've always always believed in transparency partially because then I think you attract the right people.

>> Mhm. and uh partially because then I'm gonna get the good information so to act on. Usually the failures I see with CEOs

on. Usually the failures I see with CEOs aren't because they made the wrong decisions. It's because they were

decisions. It's because they were getting the wrong data that led to the wrong decisions. So it's incredibly

wrong decisions. So it's incredibly important as a leader of any organization for you to build the channels and build the kind of culture

that surfaces problems to you quickly.

And then for me too, you always have to have your random direct channels. You

know, the the again, if you think about organizations as organisms, they have their own incentives. And so

my staff's incentive is to control the the the information that gets to me, not because they're bad people. It's just

their job because I can get overwhelmed.

Who do I meet with? What's my schedule?

You know, is this person worthy of meeting the CEO? And for me, my fight is I just set up a bunch of random [ __ ] I'll meet with, you know, engineers four

levels down consistently because usually they've got the kind of personality where they don't give a [ __ ] They'll tell me anything and everything and they like putting the CEO down. That's great.

>> They like putting the CEO down.

>> It's, you know, engineers often, you know, don't like authority and code is like the biggest authority buster. It's

like the truth truth. Uh, so I find a lot of engineers have a personality which is, yeah, I'm gonna tell you what it's like. Like I'm, you know, they they

it's like. Like I'm, you know, they they they their value is in something else, but often they don't. There's a kind of a disrespect for authority that I love.

>> I found in my companies that there's sometimes like a 24year-old young girl who will just tell me the truth.

>> Yeah.

>> And she's the one you want to hang out with.

>> She's the one I always go and ask for an opinion.

>> Absolutely. And so that that's you've got to have your your own channels, but the way to the way to get transparency from your team is first first you've got to give it to them.

>> Was the culture hardworking when you arrived? Could you use the word coasting

arrived? Could you use the word coasting to describe some of the team when you arrived at Expedia?

>> Medium. I think the company had been successful for a long time and uh had coasted on that success to some extent.

So I needed to turn over the team turn over like the entire team very very quickly and get some hungry people in there. the entire team.

there. the entire team.

>> Almost the entire team. Yeah. Yeah. It

was uh it was rough going for a while, but then you have kind of missionoriented people who are trying to prove themselves. Um and it's part of

prove themselves. Um and it's part of the renewal that every company has to go through and we turned it around. It was

it was tough going, but we really turned around and that was when I kind of I learned, hey, my my love is running [ __ ] It's great. It's the best part of my job.

>> How did you get that company to work hard? Because there's so many people

hard? Because there's so many people listening right now that are in a company that might have been successful, might be two decades in >> and this is an ultimate question in like executive management. How do you turn

executive management. How do you turn around the culture of a big or even even 200 people?

>> It's very difficult. Um and sometimes the shortcut is just change of people like it's very easy to say oh you have values this and that. So it's it's

finding the people who you believe will line up with your cultural mechanisms or how you work or your values

and then embodying those values and those mechanisms as examples and then making sure that your team embodies those values and imbuss down the down the organization. So part of working

the organization. So part of working hard is like, you know, sending emails to the team on a Saturday and if I don't get a response on Saturday, sending them an email on Sunday with a question mark.

What's going on? You know, I think at Expedia in hindsight, we we worked intensely and and and we went hard, but but not as hard as I like

because Expedia was we were selling vacations, right? It was it was the the

vacations, right? It was it was the the product that we were selling was about turning yourself off. And so we did talk about work life balance. Uh and in

hindsight at Uber, I don't, you know, you come to Uber, you're going to work your ass off.

We're going to be really demanding. If

you're not performing, we're going to let you know, and if you don't fix it, we're going to push you out. But while it will be incredibly

out. But while it will be incredibly hard, you will have real agency at the company. We're a big company, but

company. We're a big company, but individuals can make a big difference.

And it's a company that's making a difference in the world. You're going to learn so much. And while you will have worked hard, you're going to have a great time. But this is don't come here

great time. But this is don't come here if you want to coast. And I'm very clear about that. And I should have been more

about that. And I should have been more clear at Expedia, but we were selling vacations, so I couldn't be quite that clear.

>> New year always has a strange energy to it because people start talking about their goals, fresh starts, and new habits. But the reality is that most

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In your 12 years as CEO, Expedia stock rose 550%.

And sales increased 400% from 2.1 billion to 8.8 billion. And you were the highest paid CEO of a US tech company with a pay of 94.1 million.

>> I left it all behind to go to Uber.

>> You left it all behind. There was a big options packet that I never vested, but it's all good.

>> It was a great run.

>> I'm so I'm so intrigued about this point of hard work because I think 10 years ago saying what you just said was very taboo.

>> Yes.

>> It feels to be more invoked.

>> We're freed now. YES.

>> YOU'RE FREED NOW.

>> YES. YES, INDEED. It's it I've I've gotten um you know, sometimes people ask you the question, uh what advice would you give to young people? And to me, the

most important skill in life is a skill of working hard. And it's not a skill you can't just like decide you're going to do it. And I think way too many many people, you know, focus on should be

should should you be a computer programmer or a doctor or study the liberal arts now that anyone can vibe code? Just learn to work hard. And it

code? Just learn to work hard. And it

is, you know, the the when you see the top athletes, of course, they're talented and, you know, their talent level is world levels, but the thing that changes that

that's different about the elite athletes than the non- elite athletes, and I'm talking elite, is they work their asses off. They're disciplined.

They're structured. They're relentless.

You know, look at Ronaldo, look at Michael Jordan, etc. That's the same thing is true in all of life. It's true

in business. It's true in personal life.

And so for me with my kids, I just want to teach them how to work hard. And and for me, like growing up, I as a banker, as an

executive, I'm not going to let anyone out me. And if that's true, then they

out me. And if that's true, then they may be smarter, more talented, etc. But I'm not going to let anyone outwork me.

And I think that that's a huge advantage that you have. over a period of time that advantage compounds and I want them our company like I want Uber to be an incredibly hardworking company >> comes at a cost though working hard

>> yes it it comes at a trade-off and and we we believe in flexibility so people confuse kind of lack of flexibility to working hard you can work hard and at the same time you can have flexibility

so if you want to have dinner with your family and I'm I'm religious about having dinners with my family when I'm in town you know 6:00 to 8 uh absolutely spend that I'm with my family, but at, you know, 9:30 p.m. I'm checking emails.

>> Mhm.

>> Right. When I wake up at 5:30 and a.m.

I'm checking emails. So, of course, there are trade-offs. And, you know, life is about trade-offs.

>> I think one of the most important things I've learned from interviewing CEOs and generally we've gone through a transition of COVID and remote work and then come back into like everyone's in the office again is actually the most important thing is what you just said, which is being honest with people so

that they can make decisions for themselves in their lives. I think the the thing that one might describe as toxic is when you say something publicly, but then when they arrive, it's a completely different deal. But

what you're doing is you're being honest and you're therefore allowing people to make decisions for themselves in their own lives.

>> And I'm allowing them to be honest back to me.

>> Yeah. And you're a that's a that's a company culture that someone like me would be attracted to.

>> Absolutely.

>> But there's lots of people listening that couldn't think of anything worse.

>> And that's okay.

>> Yes. Yeah.

>> There are plenty of companies that they could find or plenty of causes that they can find. It's fine. You said learn to

can find. It's fine. You said learn to work hard. Learn

work hard. Learn >> it's a it's a skill.

>> Really?

>> Yes. Of course it is because you you've got to the idea of just staying focused on something, not being discouraged by failing, trying over and over again and

just working harder than others. It's

not something you can turn on and off. I

see it in people all the time. There's

just like this grim determination. like

we uh at Uber that there's actually saying it's it's it's inside one of our values. Embrace the grind, you know,

values. Embrace the grind, you know, embrace it. That's

embrace it. That's that's a learned skill. That's not

something you're born with. Maybe maybe

there's an element that you're born with.

>> Have you ever seen someone who isn't a hard worker become a really hard worker, an exceptionally hard worker?

>> Ah, that's a good question. No, no one doesn't occur to me. Have you?

>> No. I I heard I think it might have been maybe Brian Chesky Airbnb or Elon say that he's never seen someone who wasn't a hard worker become a really hard worker.

>> That's interesting.

>> And this is why >> I'm trying to come up with someone failing so far.

>> And maybe I might posit that it's somewhat to do with you know these photos that you have in front of you, your childhood, your early context which you didn't choose. I also working hard here. But yeah,

here. But yeah, >> but that you were forged in such a way that you were going to be >> ruthless. So relentless is the word I

>> ruthless. So relentless is the word I meant.

>> Yeah. I I mean ruthless to myself.

>> Mhm.

>> Relentless. Relentless is right. You

know, I think I think at one point Jeff Bezos was going to call Amazon relentless. That was uh he was thinking

relentless. That was uh he was thinking about that being the name of the company, >> right? It's it's just and and that is

>> right? It's it's just and and that is when I see successful technology companies and especially technology companies there is this relentlessness about them like at Uber we have lots of

different groups that are trying to do different things but each and every team is built and targeted on optimizing and

improving their own particular function.

There isn't a piece of the company that is not improving every single day. And

if they're not improving fast enough, someone else is going to take their place and going to improve it. So as a as an organism, every part of the company, whether it's a payments team in

terms of new payments types or uh payment success or the fraud team or the mobile app team in terms of conversions, etc. Every team is set up in and

organized for and gold on improving everything that they do. So the whole company in small ways is constantly improving never ever stopping and it is

that relentless nature of business and and the minute and it's not good enough to get better. We have to get better faster than our competitors because our competitors are all getting better as

well. So it's it's basically like who

well. So it's it's basically like who can adapt faster to either the reality of the market as it is today or the prediction of the market as you see it

tomorrow. And it's the speed of change

tomorrow. And it's the speed of change and it's identification of the opportunity. Those are the two factors I

opportunity. Those are the two factors I think that are most important. Um, and

the speed of change, you know, if you can work fast, you're kind of accelerating time. You know, every one

accelerating time. You know, every one shot that you take, I can take two shots. I've got more time than you do.

shots. I've got more time than you do.

And then, of course, there's identifying the opportunity, going after it. Those

are the two things you really have to get right. If you're taking two shots,

get right. If you're taking two shots, not only you going to get two data points of information, but you're also increasing your probability of having a successful shot by like 100%.

>> Shots on goal. Just shots on goal.

>> How do you create a culture of continuous improvement? Because

continuous improvement? Because successful companies, as you kind of highlighted earlier, they become complacent with their victories and they like to take some time off and celebrate and >> you know, we high five and then and then we chill and then actually the studies

show they did this big meta analysis where they looked at successful companies and they showed that they become risk adverse.

>> Totally. because they lost a version.

They have something to lose now. So just

protect.

>> I think the good news to some extent with Uber is that we've always been a company that has had a chip on its shoulder. You know, the company had a

shoulder. You know, the company had a chip on it shoulder when it was founded and had to like fight taxi unions for its very existence. Uh and then the disaster happened with Travis leaving

and then a new CEO coming in at the time. That was a really really difficult

time. That was a really really difficult time. Then we went through a period of

time. Then we went through a period of COVID which was again a disaster for the company but ultimately prepared us to to do better. Then people saying you know

do better. Then people saying you know it was a tough IPO. Uh Uber is never going to get profitable and today we're incredibly successful but we've got the challenge and the opportunity of AI and

autonomous. So we've always been a

autonomous. So we've always been a company that has been I would say underestimated and that feeds into our culture that

this is a we are a hungry company and I do think we're sometimes guilty of getting complacent in little ways and I have a leadership team that

when they see complacency more often than not than not they identify it and they get it the hell out. It's it's a team that is not satisfied, that's

always driving and I love that about us.

>> How does one balance enjoying the success and the accomplishments? I mean,

you've turned this company around, highly profitable company. Everyone that

I've spoken to, many of our mutual friends have talked lovingly about the impact you've had on the business. I

mean, the numbers speak for themselves.

When you joined Uber, Uber was losing 2.5 to 3 billion per year. Now, it

generates 8.5 billion in free cash flow every year.

How do you get people to >> 9.8 in the last year, but >> you you're counting 9.8. Okay.

Incredible.

>> Celebrate. Chill.

>> Sure. Well, you you can you can celebrate or not chill.

>> Okay. How

>> you can do we we take those moments. We

do c it's cool to run a company. That's

so important. It's cool to run a company that's hitting record after record after record. And we do celebrate those

record. And we do celebrate those records and we do celebrate those teams. Maybe not enough. And again, it goes to like what what what mistake would you rather make? I'd I'd rather make the

rather make? I'd I'd rather make the mistake of celebrating a little bit too little and kind of being a little pissed off about life in general and pushing.

But um we we take our moments, but the the the success itself, I don't know, succeeding is almost a celebration in and of itself. And and when you're succeeding in such a competitive field,

I just find a deep sense of satisfaction there. Uh and I think my team does, too.

there. Uh and I think my team does, too.

How do you get the team to take take those risks that they need to take? Is

there something you do you like incentivize them on the amount of shots they take? How do you do that? One is

they take? How do you do that? One is

they're always moving fast. That's what

we do. We push we're constantly pushing the pace of the company in terms of execution. So I think that helps. But

execution. So I think that helps. But

but I do think that there's there's a mechanism that we talk now about that I've talked to a team about taking smart risks. I think you're absolutely right

risks. I think you're absolutely right which is as companies get bigger and more successful they tend to become more riskaverse and it should be the exact opposite because you can take more risks you can

make more mistakes because you've got kind of this 9.8 8 billion of cash flow to protect yourself against some of those mistakes. So I have definitely in

those mistakes. So I have definitely in the past I would say two years pushed the team actively to push the envelope in terms of risk. Don't be defensive, be

offensive, etc. And it comes from my challenging the teams, my talking about it, setting examples of sometimes failing and then saying it's okay,

moving on. Uh and then sometimes my

moving on. Uh and then sometimes my taking decisions that are seen as more risky than not. that setting the example then allows the company to follow.

>> So if I was in one of your teams, what how do you think about goal setting for me?

>> Um all the teams have different goals, business goals. The ads team has to

business goals. The ads team has to drive at technologydriven incremental ad uh dollars per year andor customer

satisfaction uh customer NPS etc. So every team has its own goals uh and they organize against those goals and they execute those goals and they're

religiously tracked. It's the best

religiously tracked. It's the best mechanism that we have. I just wish that there was a better one because the art of the goal setting becomes the issue which is are you setting the right

goals? Are they too ambitious? Are they

goals? Are they too ambitious? Are they

not ambitious enough? And sometimes

people can game the system. So we use it but I can't tell you that it's perfect.

What about you talked earlier about values. A lot of companies go and do an

values. A lot of companies go and do an offsite and they write some words on a words on a white on a wall and they say ambition enthusiasm courage whatever.

What do you think of that sort of corporate habit of go values and stuff?

>> We went through the exercise, failed the first time, succeeded the second time.

We and and when it and we failed when it first came to Uber, obviously there was a view that there we needed a cultural reset of the company and so it was very

important for me to go and inspect the culture of the company and change it. It was a statement and the

change it. It was a statement and the culture had I think some cool stuff in there, some cool ideas in there. Like

for example, there was one value that was um to stepping and the idea of toe stepping is is what you and I talked about earlier, which is we want to challenge each other within the

organization. And so if I have to step

organization. And so if I have to step on your toes and tell you something that you don't want to hear, I'm allowed to even though it hurts you uh because the truth is more important. So sometimes

the truth hurts and that's okay. That

was the idea of toestepping. And what

happened was sometimes those values became weaponized where to stepping whose spirit came from a place of we want to speak the truth became an excuse

to be a jerk.

>> Right? So the values in and of themselves can be great or terrible based on how you execute on on

those values. When I first came in, we

those values. When I first came in, we had to redo the values. And I was there there's a saying by um Jeff Bezos that that I love, which is like the the values of the company almost they they

they appear the value system of the company appears to some extent. You

don't if you say thou shalt, you're going to fail because the company shall, >> right? And the approach that we first

>> right? And the approach that we first took was that we will actually get the value system. We had we had a vote for

value system. We had we had a vote for all the employees in the company. What

values do you think should be part of the new Uber, etc. We took all the signal and then we edited it and came up with a new list of of values. And there

was one value that I wrote myself. It

was mine and it was do the right thing.

Period. It wasn't crowdsourced. It was

just that. And and usually with these values, you're like there's a whole explanation and people are like, "Well, what does do the right thing period mean?" like you have to figure it out.

mean?" like you have to figure it out.

And for me, it it was a message to the whole company, which was if you work at Uber, you have a responsibility and I'm not going to tell you exactly what to do. So, use your judgment. And it's our

do. So, use your judgment. And it's our expectation that you use your judgment to do the right thing. And sometimes

doing the right thing, it's not clear.

Should I go after my business goal?

Should I compromise on a business goal?

Because safety is in question. Of

course, you should. Safety comes first before business, etc. But we were putting that weight and that responsibility in uh within the employees. But the rest of the value

employees. But the rest of the value system that was kind of crowdsourced, it was forgettable because it was the kind of stuff that you passion, ambition,

teamwork, like what company doesn't believe in teamwork? Give me a break. So

we uh Nikki uh Krishna Murphy who runs uh people she pushed me to reset the values four or five years in by then I

felt like I did have a right to have a point of view I'd been there we weren't quite done with the turnaround etc but I was a part of the company and then we came up with a value set which is

different you know there's uh our one of our values by the way go get it was the only one that survived No, no, sorry. Uh, do the right thing was the only one that survived. But for

example, go get it is one of our top values. And the idea of go get it is

values. And the idea of go get it is obviously it's literally what we do. We

go we help people go or get it, right?

Rise and eats. So it's kind of fun in terms of what we do, but it's an attitude which is we as a company, we're go-getters. We're going to be

go-getters. We're going to be aggressive. We're going to push. We're

aggressive. We're going to push. We're

going to move fast. We play to win. And

so the value sets that we have, go get it or one that I really like, great minds don't think alike. We came up with a with a set of values which I think is unusual and describes how we are

different as a company and it's really true to who we are.

>> How important is um this sort of this attitude of failure and experimentation especially in a world that's transitioning as fast as the one we're in. When you listen to people like Ray

in. When you listen to people like Ray Kurswell his predictions of the future he says that if you're 10 now by the age of 60 you'll experience a year's change in I think it's 11 days and just this sort of this sort of exponential acceleration

>> the law of accelerating returns.

>> Yeah. Like how do you how do you you know how do you create a culture or build a team in a world where the correct answer is changing this quickly?

I I think that it is um setting a culture that does embrace that change and is constantly challenging itself.

And I will give uh Travis and the founding team credit. You know that there's kind of this idea of everything that they did was terrible and that's just not true. We

have a very high talent bar at the company. We have always kept a high

company. We have always kept a high talent bar at the company and we haven't compromised. And what I found is that

compromised. And what I found is that talented people who are also driven are on a constant hunt for the truth. So

culture isn't enough. You actually need the right people at the company. And I

think we've got a company that does have a chip on a shoulder was born out of the creation of a new industry. So we've experienced it. Um,

industry. So we've experienced it. Um,

and we have a group of people who are driven and hungry and are constantly looking for change and you got a leader and a leadership

team that's pushing the company to do so and doesn't penalize folks for challenging them. I think it's kind of this stew that you have to put together, but it's a combination of

culture and people. Do you have any mental case studies of great bets the company has taken that most people wouldn't have taken or thought was wrong or wouldn't have taken the risk on that trans transpired to be critical to your

success?

>> Well, you know, I don't know about um well, I think it will be critical to to the success, but there's a funny one which is taxis

are one of the fastest growing parts of Uber's business. So you remember Uber,

Uber's business. So you remember Uber, we started as the enemy of taxis >> and built out this peer-to-peer ride sharing. And it's probably five or six

sharing. And it's probably five or six years ago, our head of product now, Sachin, he worked on building kind of um a technology that would allow taxi

companies to to have their own little Uber app. And eventually he came to

Uber app. And eventually he came to Uber, thank God, and he's like, well, why don't we build that in Uber? Why

don't we actually build taxis on Uber?

And originally within the company and and I I kept in touch with some of the founders just cuz I want their advice cuz why not? You know, they they built a great company. I'm standing on the

great company. I'm standing on the shoulders of giants. Uh they said it's the most idiotic thing on earth that you can't wire up taxis. They hate us. They

set rates will be terrible. Lots of

technical reasons. They had tried it earlier. It was a total failure. But I

earlier. It was a total failure. But I

think Sachin uh having worked in the industry and then my being kind of ignorant saying why the hell not try it that combination allowed us to build out a taxi product

and taxi is the fastest growing segment of the company and it went completely against the founding of the company. But

now we're you know I I hope to have every single taxi in the world wired up to Uber. Why not?

to Uber. Why not?

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And there's another um there's an alien that's arrived amongst us um which is AI. And you've you know Uber's always

AI. And you've you know Uber's always been somewhat powered from what I understand by very much so degree but um the world has changed in the last couple years as it relates to AI. There's been

a huge acceleration in investment and improvement of the technology. What do

you aside from Uber?

>> You talked earlier about your early childhood and how you know you grew up with a bit of a paranoia about losing everything because that's what you experienced as a young man.

>> You see this technology arrive which is fundamentally disruptive to all of us including me as a podcaster. Yeah,

>> I've done the tests and the retention isn't the retention isn't far off when it's me or AI. So, it's slightly concerning, but like how do you how do you approach such a disruptive technology? Um, how do you think of it

technology? Um, how do you think of it broadly and the impact it's going to have on society? And are you paranoid?

>> I'm not paranoid. I'm not I guess I was going to say I'm not built that way, but maybe I am. I I think my instinct is always just to go just to move forward.

And Uber has been built out of an AI core. all of our pricing, all of our

core. all of our pricing, all of our routing, who you're matched with, uh whether or not a courier batches a trip, which is do they take two orders or one

order. All of our systems, underlying

order. All of our systems, underlying systems are are driven by AI. We do 40 million trips a day. You know, that kind of orchestration can't be done by uh

heristic rules and we've got to work on the streets of New York and the streets of Logos as well. So the the we we have built the entire company on small AI

models that have been trained on local problems and then get stitched together.

That's literally what the company is. So

for us AI is it's kind of a core skill set and and AI can it can mess things up, right? It it's not because it's not

up, right? It it's not because it's not heruristics based. There are emergent

heruristics based. There are emergent issues that come out of an AI that works 96% of the time and 4% of the time it

screws up. So we're comfortable with the

screws up. So we're comfortable with the uncertainty layer of AI as a company. So

we are I would say moving headlong into AI. We're not one of the, you know,

AI. We're not one of the, you know, research shops, but I would say in terms of applied AI, the team is driving to build AI kind of newer AI experiences

across the company.

But, you know, stepping back as a as a person, the impact on society is going to be enormous. And going back to Kurszswwell's kind of law of

accelerating returns, whereas previously society has always been able to adjust to these kinds of shifts. Um, it's been able to adjust

shifts. Um, it's been able to adjust because it had time to adjust. And AI

literally quite literally thinks and AI will be able to replace the work that 70 80% of humans can do over the next 10

years. 10 years is not a lot of time for

years. 10 years is not a lot of time for society to adjust to that kind of an impact. Now are they going to be more

impact. Now are they going to be more expensive than humans, cheaper than humans, etc. Who knows? But the

capability will be there probably in the next 10 years for intellectual jobs probably call it 15 years for physical 15 20 years for physical jobs because

physical AI >> is harder you know robots cars etc more capital heavy takes longer have to deal

with the physical world so the the changes in society are going to be giant but my view is you can't slow down the

rate of change.

And if you're a part of that change, at least you can have some say as to how that change imprints on society and imprints on the real world. And so for

me, I'm leaning in. It's a it's a very very exciting time.

>> 70 to 80% of jobs will be uh disrupted by AI is like broadly what you said there. And the pace of change is going

there. And the pace of change is going to mean that a lot of people don't have new jobs to go to because we haven't >> I think that's the question >> the retraining challenge and people say well there's going to be jobs in AI but like listen I got some friends that

can't just >> society's always adjusted right farming was a huge percentage of our labor force now it's less than 1% >> but the speed of >> yeah that I I think that's a question

and you could argue that AIs will be able to retrain you right the job retraining is going to change so of course societyy's going to adjust >> but I I do think it raises questions, real questions.

>> I've I've not been able to get an answer on that really, I think, from the experts in AI that I've interviewed, which is like what do those 70 or 80 people% of people do? Because we're

seeing in our own business that there's many jobs which we would have hired for previously.

>> Yeah.

>> Um across the board that AI is now doing exceptionally well. And every single

exceptionally well. And every single day, literally daily, we try to see if the new model, Gemini Pro 3 or whatever, can do things that we're currently doing manually. And every day we're getting

manually. And every day we're getting those little breakthroughs and going, "Oh, okay. Now we no longer need to."

"Oh, okay. Now we no longer need to."

And coding is one of those big areas you talk about a lot where there's been already sort of big dis disruption positive disruption at Uber and a lot of your coders are now using AI to

>> yeah about 90% of our coders are using AI now that's easy to say but but there are probably 30% of them that were power users they are showing a clear

um differentiation in the number of diffs for example how much a diff is a code release that's different from the last code release. So one of the measurements of productivity is just how

many diffs are you putting to the codebase. Uber's just a giant codebase.

codebase. Uber's just a giant codebase.

That's what we are. And so our engineers are literally the builders of the company. They are manufacturing the

company. They are manufacturing the bricks that go into the system. Uh and

they're architects who are kind of thinking about what the system should should look like. Uh, and so while 90% of our engineers are using

AI tools of some sort, there's about 30% of them that are using them at a completely accelerated pace. And it

really is changing their productivity in a way that I've never ever seen before.

Ultimately, I do think that the job of a coder is going to change more and more from actually writing the code from to some extent orchestrating agents

who are writing the code or building systems for you. It becomes more of an orchestration job versus a manual writing job. But the job will still be

writing job. But the job will still be there. And my attitude is if my average

there. And my attitude is if my average engineer became 25 25% more efficient, which we haven't gone there yet, but we will get there. I'm gonna hire more engineers because I want to go faster.

That there's still lots of unsolved problems that we haven't solved. But I

can imagine, you know, maybe 5 years from now as the engineers get more and more productive, I may not decide to add engineering headcount because at that point instead of adding an engineer, I

should add agents and buy some more GPUs from Nvidia. That may be the investment

from Nvidia. That may be the investment in the future. We'll see

>> because thinking about linear versus exponential as well. If we imagine a rate of improvement, I don't know, in my head I go, well, won't there come a time where you as the CEO or you and a team, an executive team can tell an agent what

you want to build? You can show it the strategy and theoretically, I mean, I can't figure out how this isn't going to be possible. The agents will then build

be possible. The agents will then build and actually maybe they don't even need you to set the strategy. Maybe

but theoretically, you know, if they if you imagine any rate of improvement in the intelligence, maybe at some point they're going to go, "Well, listen, we there's a better strategy here." DAR

>> what one of my uh uh one of my team members told me that some teams have built a DAR AI you know so so that they

basically make the presentation to the DAR AI as a prep for making a presentation to me because you can imagine like you know by the time something comes to me there's been a

prep and a meeting and the and the slide deck has been beautifully honed so they have DAR AI to tune their prep. Are you

concerned they might show DAR AI to the board?

>> I was like I was like can I see the code for DAR AI? I'm curious. She's like no we're not showing it to you.

>> But is there anything like falsifiable in what I just said about that there coming a time in the not so near future if we imagine exponential improvement where >> I think I think where AI

still is missing a beat that humans and other creatures have is ability to learn real time. Right? So if if you think

real time. Right? So if if you think about you and I are learning for this conversation and maybe your behavior is going to change by 0.1% because of

actually what you learn here and the construct of most large AI models is capture enorm enormous amounts of data based on the skill set that you're

trying to drive train pre-train that model put it into the real world and then there's some post-training of the of the model based on feedback from from the world and then when the model's is

released. It's kind of released, right?

released. It's kind of released, right?

And the way the model learns is, you know, 35 becomes 38, but 35 didn't learn. The engineers went out and built,

learn. The engineers went out and built, you know, built a new model that's 38 that might have elements of 35 to it, etc. So, the the AI agents aren't

learning now. Now a lot of what we're

learning now. Now a lot of what we're doing is we're building around the foundation models that then bring kind of the signals from the real world and use the skills that the foundation

models have to do good stuff. So you can >> post- training I'm posting >> Exactly. So well so we are post-training

>> Exactly. So well so we are post-training but we're learning real time as human beings and when the models can learn

real time >> that I think is the point at which I'm going to kind of think yeah we are all replaceable but at this point I haven't seen a model that can learn real time.

One of the real areas of disruption in AI has been autonomous vehicles. And I

was just before we started recording, I was saying that uh I have a Tesla in LA where I live.

>> And it's staggering that I can get in the car, >> press a button, and drive two and a half hours to Joshua Tree without having to touch the wheel or the the pedals.

>> Now driving, I think, is one of the biggest employees in the world. Like as

a profession, >> I mean, we've got nine and a half million drivers and couriers on our platform. We are the

platform. We are the largest organizer of flexible work around the world. and they I I think the second largest um workforce is a Chinese army.

>> Wow.

>> Yeah. It's a big group of folks that we've organized >> and statistically there's less accidents in an autonomous Tesla than there is if a human drives it. So it's safer for my car to drive itself statistically than

for me to drive it. That's true, right?

That the autonomous driving is currently safer.

>> That's true. So Whimos are safer. And

then now you are a backup to the Tesla, right, as a human being. So I've I've got a Tesla as well. And once in a while it disengages and I've got to or I've got to disengage. So

it it's not necessarily the pure autonomous agent that's better than humans, but definitely the autonomous agent with a human backup. No question

that's better than the pure human.

>> And we can't be far away from it just being >> I mean Whimo's there already, right? Uh

you you live in LA. Uh they've got the Whimos. We work with them in Austin uh

Whimos. We work with them in Austin uh in Atlanta. And by all accounts, Whimo

in Atlanta. And by all accounts, Whimo drivers are safer than human beings. And

that's going to be true of AV all over the world. You know, there are million

the world. You know, there are million deaths uh from driving every year in the world. In the US, it's between 35,000

world. In the US, it's between 35,000 and 40,000 uh auto fatalities. So to the extent that these these autonomous agents and drivers can be better than

humans and they will be better than humans over a period of time uh there's a real return on human life as a result of this >> those 9 million drivers careers that you

have will be out of work conceivably in the you know talking about being honest about the situation. Yeah, I think again it goes to physical AI as well, right?

So I think 20 years from now, you can imagine that those 9 million will be 20 million uh AVs maybe, but we have time between now and then partially

because we don't operate in the virtual world, right? We operate in the physical

world, right? We operate in the physical world. You have to get the regulations

world. You have to get the regulations up. You have to build the cars, you have

up. You have to build the cars, you have to build the sensor stacks, the the models have to get there. So there is time between now and then, but you can

imagine the majority of our trips being fulfilled by robots of some kind.

Probably not 10 years from now, but you go 15, 20 years from now, you're going to start getting there.

>> What do the 9 million people do?

>> I don't know. Now we are expanding the kind of work that's available on on on the platform partially as a result of it. Right? We used to be the only work

it. Right? We used to be the only work is driving. Now there's delivering. You

is driving. Now there's delivering. You

can have shoppers as well. I think it'll be a little while at least before you get AI shoppers. And now actually we have a team called Uber AI solutions

that uh allows people to train these same agents and train uh AI agents and AI models uh and do all kinds of

knowledgebased work on their phone as well to kind of extend the kind of work that we offer uh humans on our platform and different opportunities for for them

to to make money. So we are extending the platform and then the question is how much of the platform gets automated and what's the velocity at which we can extend our platform into other kinds of work versus the velocity of automation.

I can't tell you which is going to go faster.

>> Hands on heart though it does appear that unemployment is going to be significantly increased in a world of AI especially we just imagine this sort of continual rate of improvement. I just

can't >> you you you would have to I unless again historically in societies new kinds of jobs have come up >> knowledge jobs physical jobs and now

we've disrupted both >> that's why there's a question here and I do think there's a real question as to the ability of societies to retrain the abilities of human beings to retrain

themselves AI is going to be a part of that but the timing there how fast is it going to go it's a real question mark I I think you're absolutely I don't think

it's going to be a big issue big issue uh in the next 5 years, but when you go 5 plus years, it's going to become more of a more more of an issue for society at large.

>> It's interesting because I was thinking putting two and two together about your your your father's journey of coming to the US, losing what he had, losing his job, and the the loss of like meaning and purpose being really central to him.

And I could see that basically from your face that I think what I interpreted from your face was that he struggled with as any provider would the loss of like meaning that comes with because

jobs aren't just about money that it's especially you know >> they give you a sense of worth. It's

funny. I I I read um I read a study many years ago that said when they looked at suicide letters specifically from men, I think it was an Australian study in the

suicide letters that the the sentiment was about not feeling worth >> Yes.

>> to your family.

>> Yeah.

>> And the extreme of that was I think my family would actually now be better off without me.

>> Interesting. And um and this kind of you know I think is probably adjacent to this conversation around job displacement which is where are we going to find our meaning in a world where

the machines have now disrupted our intelligence and our muscles.

>> It's every universal income basic income test has failed. You know the answer that you hear from folks is well the robots are going to do all the work.

they're going to create um utility and so our work won't have to create utility so people will just have money but it goes to exactly what you're saying which is every single test they've done now

it's not 20 but they've done a couple tests where certain section of the population similar population gets income certain section doesn't and every time the ones who are getting income do

worse in terms of outcomes because well we don't know the because I The because is related to what you're saying which is

market forces kind of that force someone to work then create a perception of self-v valueue succeeding you know most people succeed if they're driven to succeed they will

succeed and as they succeed it comes with a very very deep and important feeling of I am creating value I'm supporting my family I'm uh building

this incredible piece of art, etc. Whatever that value is to you, and wherever that meaning comes from, I'm an incredible parent. That value is what

incredible parent. That value is what keeps people going. Uh, and I don't think that, you know, the government raining money down on society is going to help.

>> It's refreshing to hear your perspective on this because a lot of the time, you know, you'll hear CEOs in the media just saying, "It'll be fine. Everyone's going

to figure it out." And I think that's >> historically we have figured it out. So

maybe they're right. But but you have to ask whether they're giving you the real stuff or not.

>> Yeah. And that's kind of what I that's what I I think because I sometimes hear about private conversations and the private conversations I hear about the sheer amount of disruption that they anticipate and then when I see them on like CNBC or Davos, it's be fine and figure it out. And I understand the

incentive because if they were to start ringing the bell, it might hurt their own chance of like innovating and fundraising and all those things. But I

think you sit at this sort of happy medium of being Yeah. as the CEO of Uber, you've got to you've got to pursue the opportunity in the technology. But

on the other hand, to be honest and say, listen, there's going to be big disruption and we I don't know the answers.

>> I remember you were talking about CNBC, a CNBC anchor once we had an interview and afterwards she said, uh, you know, I really like you.

>> You actually answer my questions. And

I'm thinking to myself, what am I not supposed to? There there's

like the the PR trading is always if you get a bad question, don't answer the question. just pivot to something else.

question. just pivot to something else.

And for me, like I've I've sworn to myself, uh, and Noah, who's who's up there, is probably going to kill me afterwards. It's just I'm going to

afterwards. It's just I'm going to answer the question. I'm not going to do the BS. And again, I have to think the

the BS. And again, I have to think the anchor knows what's happening. The

audience knows what what's happening.

So, I'm like, I'll answer the question.

If it's a shitty question, I'll deal with it.

>> I actually don't like interviewing CEOs, which is funny because the name of the podcast because active >> how did how did the the Cuz I I looked before I came on. And I'm like, I'm going to look up on uh uh yeah, the

CEOs. And there aren't that many CEOs.

CEOs. And there aren't that many CEOs.

>> Well, if I looked at your diary, what would I find inside your diary? I would

probably find you contending with being a father, your psychology. I might find some things in there about your health.

I can see you're a guy that goes to the gym.

>> Yeah.

>> Um and I think it's all interlin. I

think for you to be an exceptional CEO, you probably think a lot about your past, your childhood, your health, your how to optimize and all these things.

And so honestly, you can't do a podcast like this for 20 years >> and just hit the same thing every day.

>> You need to be I need to be intellectually stimulated.

>> And you and me are both multifaceted creatures, I guess. So that's why it's evolved >> until we become AIs.

>> Until we become AIs. Yeah. Just closing

off on that then, um, what can we do about this from an AI AV perspective? Is

it the government's responsibility? Is

it collective action?

So one is I do think that we don't talk enough in that for example with autonomous AI can be a force for good right it's these drivers are going to be safer than human beings and those we can

take the 35,000 fatalities to 3,000 fatalities etc. I do think that the AI's the AV is going to bring down the price

of transportation. So a a big part of

of transportation. So a a big part of our goal is to make ondemand transportation available for everybody.

One of the folks that I was talking to was talking about how Uber has changed her mother's life. Like her mom can get around and it just wouldn't get around without it, right? We want more moms

like that. So, I do think it's important

like that. So, I do think it's important to recognize that if transport fundamental transportation becomes safer, it becomes cheaper. Going back to Jean's paradox, that's a good thing for

society right?

I don't think that the answer as it relates to society is to try to slow down the pace of change because China won't for example if we're uh

talking about the west. So I think you just have to lean into it. I think that discussions like this are important. I

think you look for technology leaders who are talking about it. Daario, for

example, Anthropic is talking uh about it, pissing some people off, but I think he's having good discussions there. And

then I do think that the the society arming up to be able to retrain large groups of people at scale is not a

skill. I don't see people investing that

skill. I don't see people investing that and I don't see that as a core capability of any of our countries etc. There's one thing I can come up with, it will be that is the retraining machine.

>> You've got f four kids.

>> Yes.

>> They come to you, they say, "Dad, listen. AI, robotics, give me some

listen. AI, robotics, give me some advice for my future. What should I be doing?"

doing?" >> Work hard. You're going to be fine. Work

hard. It's it's just that's I mean, now the AI theoretically can can work harder than you, but I I find one of the pieces of advice I give to

young people is don't plan. Okay. I wind

up, we went through a history. I wound

up where I am today having not planned a thing. I didn't when I was an investment

thing. I didn't when I was an investment banker. I wasn't dreaming of becoming

banker. I wasn't dreaming of becoming CEO, etc. And and what I find is that people who have too much of a career plan, who have too much clarity about what they're doing, they they lose their

curiosity. And and human beings look for

curiosity. And and human beings look for positive signal, right? you whether you like it or not. Anytime someone agrees with you makes you feel a little bit

better, anytime you get signal that goes against your preconceived notions, either you ignore it or you're like, "All right, [ __ ] I'm going to I'm going to take this on." It's unpleasant. And

so with with career planning, what I find is people who have too clear uh career plan, they're looking for signals that feed into their career plan. I'm

going to be a vice president by this much. I'm going to make X money by this

much. I'm going to make X money by this much. and they're not looking around,

much. and they're not looking around, they're not being curious. They're not

looking for signal that can change, you know, their life. And and and so what I tell some folks is like before you go out and try to change a world, let the

world change you first. You know, take input. And if you're like this, you got

input. And if you're like this, you got blinders cuz I'm going here. You're not

going to take input. You're not going to let you're not going to take all the stimulus coming in from the world.

though it's, you know, the one constant I see is people who are good are good.

People who are good. I've never seen a successful person in in a job or a career get there without working hard. And my guess is, I don't

working hard. And my guess is, I don't know about you, you kind of wound up where you're wound up kind of by accident.

>> And people are like, well, you got lucky. I got very lucky to be here. like

lucky. I got very lucky to be here. like

I had so many kind of moments and and some would say I took advantage of that l of of that luck but to some extent I was able to take advantage of that luck because I was

open being open. You jumped from Expedia to Uber. Um in part helped by some

to Uber. Um in part helped by some advice that our mutual friend Daniel E the founder of Spotify gave you.

>> He's actually just text me. I text him saying hey can you uh can you send me a question to ask Dario but he said I'm in the middle of now texting while we're talking. Damn it. No, just before I

talking. Damn it. No, just before I walked in, I've just looked. He texted

me back saying he's on an earnings call.

Never mind. But um he said, "Good luck with the interview." Um what did Daniel X say to you that helped to form that decision to go to Uber?

>> So he's the one who recommended I think I was I was uh contacted by head hunter.

He recommended me to the head hunter who called me. Uh I told him I was actually

called me. Uh I told him I was actually at the Allen and Company conference going back in a a circle with him and we were having a drink one night and he asked me, he's like, "Did the head hunter call you?" there's this Uber roll

and at the at the time Uber was a disaster like disaster and everyone was reading about it. I was at Expedia. I

had just gotten this wonderful contract that you said at the beginning. So I was I was going to stay and I love working for Barry. We're like it it it's been

for Barry. We're like it it it's been it's been the best professional partnership of of my life. And I said of course I'm not going to go. You know I'm so happy about what I'm doing at

Expedia. And Daniel like looks at me.

Expedia. And Daniel like looks at me.

He's got his like cold Scandinavian eyes. He's like, "Dra, since when is

eyes. He's like, "Dra, since when is life about being happy? It's about

making impact. Uber is a great company and you can have an impact on that company. You've got to do this." So the

company. You've got to do this." So the next day I had called the head hunter previously. I said, "No, no, I'm not

previously. I said, "No, no, I'm not interested." The next day I called the

interested." The next day I called the head hunter and I said, "Let's talk." So

Daniel was the one who opened me up. And

your dad, he gave you advice.

>> Well, I talked to my dad and uh his my dad is keeps things simple and he said, "Do you as far as he when a company

who's a verb tells you to run it, you just say yes." So, I thought that was good uh good advice. And and ultimately

I think people who come to Uber stay at Uber. They come

because of the challenge but they stay because of the impact. Like we are building a company that is important to the world and for me I could come and I could have an I could have impact on

impactful company. So why the hell not?

impactful company. So why the hell not?

And when he says a company that's a verb, he's referring to the fact that everybody in the the taxiing or transportation category uses Uber as a verb to even if they're talking about a competitor.

>> Exactly. Right.

>> Um and there's always one company in every sort of industry that owns them.

>> We have a closing tradition here where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest not knowing who they're leaving it for. And the question left for you is, what is one conversation that if you could rewind time and have

you would have today but can no longer have?

It was a conversation with with my dad.

Um, you know, I told you I came to New York from San Francisco and uh it was because my dad was getting very old and he was

losing his mental facilities.

>> And I'm glad I came back and I got to spend time with him. But those last times, you know, when I spent time with him, it wasn't really him. And I wish I

could talk to him about his experiences, his younger life, the excitement of building something and then the loss and regrets he had in in life as well. I

never had, you know, my relationship with him was kind of was there was love.

No question about love, but we didn't have the deep kind of conversations that certainly I'm hoping I get to have with my kids. So, that's a conversation I'd

my kids. So, that's a conversation I'd love to have. And you can't get time back. Uh, and that's one of the

back. Uh, and that's one of the tragedies of life, but it's also one of the beauties of life, you know, which is there are some mistakes that you make that are permanent. Um, and you can't

get that back. But my then making genuine conversations with you and connections with my friends and having a real relationship not just with my wife

and my kids, but actually like with my workmates. you know, we

workmates. you know, we having those genuine conversations and connections um is my way of correcting for the

conversation I never had with my dad.

>> Dra, thank you.

>> Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

You're a huge inspiration for me in so many ways and even more so now having done so much research on you in preparation for this conversation because it is it is rare to find a leader who has been consistently successful across different domains

who's built this really really in my opinion quite rare skill stack from investing to CFO to then being able to transition to CEO and then has repeatedly contended with moments of transition and given us all frameworks

as founders and entrepreneurs for how to deal with that transition. One of the great ones I take away from you is is honesty. Yeah, honesty is so powerful.

honesty. Yeah, honesty is so powerful.

And I'll tell you, I learned I learned that skill from my wife. She's just she she's always like people are people.

Doesn't matter. You know, they eat, they crab, they have to go to sleep. And she

treats everybody in her life the same way regardless of their position. And

and uh >> like your dad did.

>> Uh yeah. Yeah. And she's she's honestly it's just so powerful.

>> Thank you so much.

>> You're very welcome.

>> An unbelievable inspiration. Thank you.

I appreciate it.

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