Understand & Apply the Psychology of Money to Gain Greater Happiness | Morgan Housel

welcome to the huberman Lab podcast

where we discuss science and

science-based tools for everyday

[Music]

life I'm Andrew huberman and I'm a

professor of neurobiology and

Opthalmology at Stanford School of

Medicine my guest today is Morgan howel

Morgan howel is a partner at the

collaborative fund and an expert in

private wealth generation and management

he is also the author of The

spectacularly bestselling book the

psychology of money and today we talk

about the psychology of money we talk

about how money can change your

psychology we talk about how most people

tend to lie at the extremes of either

saving too much money or spending too

much money and we talk about how most

people get it completely wrong when it

comes to framing in our minds what money

is what it's real value is in its

ability to generate happiness within us

and no I am not going to tell you and

Morgan is not going to tell you that

Beyond a certain dollar amount you don't

increase your happiness because as we

all know money cannot buy happiness but

it can buffer stress we acknowledge that

from the outset and then Morgan goes on

to explain that really what we're

seeking when we talk about seeking

wealth or money is freedom freedom is

really about independence and that if we

are constantly in pursuit of wealth well

then we are not truly free or

independent so today's discussion is as

much about being happy being free

feeling independent feeling free of

stress as it is about this thing that we

call money so in other words Morgan

explains not just how to generate and

manage money monetary wealth he explains

that but he also explains how to

organize your life in and around this

thing that we call career the pursuit of

wealth and happiness and I can think of

few topics as important as today's topic

I read Morgan's book the psychology of

money and I loved it I also love today's

discussion because I'm certain that

after it's done you will realize that

you've probably been thinking about

wealth and money incorrectly in a number

of ways and you've probably been

pursuing it incorrectly in a number of

ways but by asking yourself certain

probe questions that Morgan raises today

and answering those questions you can

arrive in a place where your

relationship to money and your pursuit

of it really clearly matches your

particular goals before we begin I'd

like to emphasize that this podcast is

separate from my teaching and research

roles at Stanford it is however part of

my desire and effort to bring zero cost

to Consumer information about science

and science related tools to the general

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huberman and now for my discussion with

Morgan howel Morgan howel welcome thanks

so much for having me happy to be here

I'm excited that you have a new book

coming out next year about the art of

spending money is that right that's

right you got it today I want to talk

about how to think about

money what is it how do we frame it

within our

historical context meaning our personal

historical context because I think we

all and each think about money a little

bit differently and then talk about what

is the best use or in some cases uh not

use of of money this is a topic that you

know could go in any number of different

directions but my goal here is that

people will get a better understanding

of what money is why they work for it

and really how to make it a true asset

to their lives as opposed to something

that um is forever Out Of Reach in terms

of amount or what they expect it to

bring them great looking forward to it

great so um your book starts off with

this notion that U people are not crazy

it's in fact the the title of the

chapter does that mean that people are

rational about money oh I think it's

very different what I meant by no one is

crazy is that it is so easy for people

to look around at society and how people

are spending their money and saving

their money and investing their money

and say why why the hell would anybody

do that why would you waste your money

on this why would you hoard your money

like that and actually think if you peel

back the onion layer of what's going on

in those people's lives no one is really

that crazy with how they spend their

money or save their money it makes sense

to them in that moment my brother-in-law

is a social worker he works with very

disadvantaged kids kids who are abused

at home who don't have homes and a lot

of those kids not surprisingly uh do

very poorly at school they misbehave

they get in fights they don't go to

school and it is so common for those

kids that the teacher will look at those

kids and say why why are you acting like

this why don't you do the right thing

it's so obvious and he says there's a

there's a phrase in social work all

Behavior makes sense with enough

information that if you look at what

those kids are dealing with in life it

would all make sense to you why they are

misbehaving at school and I think that's

a powerful idea for a lot of things in

life that all Behavior makes sense with

enough information and you can really

apply it to money too that you could

easily tie how I spend my money today

and save my money today based off of the

experience that I've had in life how I

was raised where I was raised how old I

am the generation I was born into all

things that are outside of my control

and it is very common to look at people

who are spending a ton of money well

that there's a story behind that they're

spending a ton of money because they

want some you know for a lot of them

they want some sort of attention they're

trying to get people's attention maybe

some times they're trying to cover up a

hole maybe they actually are really

enjoying it people who are hoarding a

lot of money there's a story there too

they EXP erence something that's causing

them to do that and I think this is

really important for two reasons one it

forces you to realize that there is not

one right way to manage money to save it

to spend it you got to figure out what

works for you and what works for me

might not work for you there's not one

answer and it's not like math like in

math 2 plus 2 equals 4 for everybody and

in money it's like you got to figure it

out for yourself it's almost like your

taste in food or your taste in music

like just find out what you like and do

that the other thing is I think you

become less cynical about other people's

decisions and you don't spend all your

day saying look at that idiot spending

their money in a stupid way no it's just

you got to figure it out for yourself

and I think you become happier when

you're a little less cynical about how

other people are doing it for most

people including myself the whole notion

of money and safety are very closely

linked you know do we have enough

resources to take care of ourselves plus

a bit extra one hopes I guess I would

include in taking care of oneself um

buffering one's anxiety about not having

enough money that's part of the

psychological care um and also taking

care of others that we might be

responsible for or simply want to take

care of that's very closely linked to

Notions of how much and what type of

education to get right I mean I think

everyone presumably at some point um

goes through the uh mental gymnastics of

is it worth it to get an advanced degree

What majors should I focus on is that

are there any jobs there when I went to

school to be a neuroscientist a

cardiologist a friend of our family said

why would you go into Neuroscience there

no jobs in that um there were plenty of

jobs in neuroscience and still are I

wouldn't say that most of them are

high-paying jobs so you know we know

that higher education doesn't always

scale with higher

income as we grow up and move into the

world you know we're thinking about how

to integrate all these different things

what we want to do because it's

interesting versus what will make us

money in your experience and observation

and in writing your book is there some

sort of path to to cut through these

different considerations I mean when we

talk about money and wealth you know

what should we really take into

consideration is there some sort of

checklist I mean it becomes a pretty

vast space um I believe that you get the

best work out of yourself uh in terms of

going after things you're really

interested in yeah but you know there

may not be money in um things that are

highly interesting to somebody I asked

Daniel conoman a very similar question

about 10 years ago conoman is a a

world-renowned psychologist won the

Nobel prize in economics passed away a

year or two ago and uh he said the trait

that you need to do well with money over

time no matter who you are is a

well-calibrated sense of your future

regret what are you going to end up

regretting in the past I think at the

highest level that's how you should base

all of your financial decisions is will

I regret spending this or not spending

this will I regret making or not making

this investment now much easier said

than done I think most people do not

fully understand their own sense of

regret what they're likely to look back

and say I wish I had not have done this

the other thing is that it changes over

the course of your life I'll give you a

perfect example I'm a big saver have

been for my entire adult life um what if

if heaven forbid if I were on my

deathbed tomorrow would I regret the

vacations I didn't take the cars I

didn't buy the answer right now is

absolutely not I would feel so good

knowing that my wife and kids are going

to be okay so I would take so much

pleasure in knowing that I did not spend

that I saved it for their protection

will I still feel that way if I'm 80

years old then maybe I will look back

and say I should have lived a little bit

more I should have given my money away

while I could have seen it being given

away so it changes throughout the course

of your life but I think if you're

always thinking through the lens of what

am I going to regret it's never about uh

YOLO or about like oh you know you know

safe you know safe today so so you can

have it for tomorrow it's I think that's

too too simple to think about it you

have to know what you're going to regret

in the the future and look back and back

to everyone's different what I will

regret might be very different from what

you will regret very interesting story

from Jeff Bezos he talked about when he

started Amazon back in I think it was

1994 the reason he started it and he

knew that there was very little chance

it was going to work uh when he first

started it but he said if I do not try

this I will regret it and if I try it

and it fails I won't regret that that's

an amazing story that talks about his

entrepreneurial Spirit the other thing

when I first heard that story is bless

him thinking that I do not have that

personality if I devoted my entire life

and my family's money and my parents

money to a startup and it failed I I I

might regret that I admire and I'm

grateful for the people who do not have

that Vision as he does made the world

better but everyone's sense of regrets

going to be a little bit

different and sometimes this sense of

what one is likely to regret if we have

access to it at all because it sounds

like we're not very good at anticipating

this as Conan pointed out um uh most

people lack a well- calibrated sense of

future regret that's going to change

over time so it's Dynamic and here we're

talking about investing in twoyear or

fouryear degrees we're talking about

investing in a one's time that is in uh

a particular profession and I think we

come up with all these

explanations uh post Hawk about well you

know I went to that uh company I went

into that line of work I spent 10 years

there or the the startup failed but I

learned a valuable lesson that then you

know uh really supported me in a future

Endeavor and so we rationalize our poor

choices from the past in ways that allow

us to you know connect the dots to sort

of steal from the the famous Steve Steve

Jobs speech um and yet all of this

really says that we are very poor at

placing our current experience and our

past experience into any kind of future

projection of ourselves you talk a

little bit about this in your book and

this really um you know sunk in for me

in a major way that we don't really know

or anticipate how we are likely to

change as we get older right so there's

a thing in Psychology call the end of

History illusion which means that you

are very aware of how much you've

changed in the last 20 years you are

maybe smarter wiser you have your

beliefs about things in life have

evolved uh and that's true for most

people but most people if you if you

actually dig into it they think if you

say who we who will you be in 20 years

from now they think they'll roughly be

the same person they are today there's

always this belief that I've have grown

so much in the past but I'm done growing

because you it's hard to project how

you're going to be different in the

future a lot of that is if I tell myself

20 years from now I'll have very

different beliefs about politics

whatever it might be what I'm

effectively admitting is what I believe

today is wrong and you don't want to

believe that everyone wants to wake up

and look in the mirror and say what I

believe today is the right thing it's

just like a self-justification of your

own beliefs to makes it easier to go

about the day what I believe right now

is the right thing and maybe you have a

little bit of Doubt around the edges but

most of it is what I believe is true so

you don't want to believe that you're

going to adjust and adapt those beliefs

over time so it becomes difficult to

take a truly long-term View and make a

decision today that is going to be

something that you're not going to

regret in the future as I've always

framed this I think the only antidote to

this of trying to get around this

problem is avoiding the extreme ends of

financial planning and a lot of people

are on the extreme ends like on one end

you have the fire movement these people

who save 90% of their income and they

want to retire at 28 kind of that kind

of thing and on the other hand you have

like the YOLO crypto traders who are

like doesn't matter like just throw it

all down and let's see what happens

those extreme ends are you are most

likely to regret at some point in the

future and the crypto look I think a lot

of those people are young and they have

time to make up for their mistakes I did

a lot of really dumb things with my

money in my teens and 20s but I think a

lot of them um that's where they are

most likely to look back you know it's

it's it's one thing to lose a lot of

money in your 20s and say ah it doesn't

really matter but then when you're 48

and trying to put your kids through

college that's when you're going to look

back and be like I wish I wouldn't I

wish I hadn't done something like that

so those extreme ends are like have the

highest odds of future

regret in order to as I described it

before carve a path through this for

people I'm wondering if people generally

fall into either one or the other

category of as you described with Bezos

you know not wanting to regret not

having done something okay so I think of

that in sort of pseudo neurobiological

terms as being drawn toward the possible

uh dopaminergic or other rewards of

having succeeded really that's what he's

envisioning presumably is um the pain of

having not having given himself the

opportunity to succeed yeah okay that's

uh one way to put it and then the other

path would be just avoiding the pain of

loss and there are a lot of studies I

think conmen did some of them in fact

that people work a lot harder to avoid

the pain of loss than to gain something

but in thinking about the people I know

of across various wealth scales and

different ages it seems that some people

are just more motivated to try new

things because they like doing new

things they like the sense of reward

that can come from doing those things

and so it really is painful for them to

stay in the same place financially or

otherwise other people they like the

sure thing they like reliability and you

can see this in a lot of domains of

their life I mean I don't want to

extrapolate this to all aspects of their

life but you know some people like dogs

that you know entire breed would uh you

know is known for rarely ever having

bitten somebody other people like to

raise K coros and while I'm sure there's

some really nice loving can coros out

there they occasionally bite it when

they bite it serious so you know are we

really talking about a propensity for

risk versus safety and do you think that

people fall into more or less two camps

on that I think it's it's it's true that

some people would go nuts if they took

the safe path and even if they're doing

it in the name of like I don't want to

regret this but they need some sort of

variability in their life they need to

go out and do things the other element

is we don't know the paths that we

didn't take and I'll give you a personal

example of this uh 20 years ago I was

enrolled in Pepperdine uh but I didn't

go I was enrolled and just at the last

second I transferred so I never actually

attended but I was all enrolled and of

course I think what would my life have

been if I had gone there because the

school that I transferred to I met my

wife started my career there and it's

easy for me to say God I'm so glad I did

not go there cuz my life would not what

it is today but the truth is maybe it

would have been fine may it would have

been better you you you you never know

the paths that you didn't take where

they're going to end up so back to con's

point a well calibrated sense of your

future regret but nobody knows the past

that they didn't take and where those

would go so it it just makes it very

difficult to have any idea of of which

which path you should be on uh in that

end so I I think just avoiding those two

camps of the extreme ends of it but

again as I said earlier I think that is

actually more than half of people are on

some sort of extreme end of spending way

more than they can or saving way more

than they need to there's there's a fat

tail distribution in how people manage

their money and so that's quite a few

people and I think that's why I think

it's one of the reasons why we live in a

society that is richer than it's ever

been by far not just at the top but at

the median level the average family is

richer than they've ever been but

because we manage it in such Extreme

Ways is it making people happier are we

happier today than we were 40 years ago

or 100 years ago that there's not a ton

of evidence for because managing it in

way that's actually going to make you

happier and reduce your regret and live

a more meaningful life is much harder

than earning it and accumulating it over

time when I was growing up you would see

a mixture of newer cars including some

very nice cars as well as a lot of older

kind of beaten up cars driving around

nowadays of course this varies by area

it's actually rare to see really old

beat up cars you see some really nice

old cars that have been restored but

that's a different thing all together

and I assume this is because of credit

that people can now buy things on credit

how has the ability to purchase things

on credit change the way that we think

about money generally I know people who

have tremendous credit card debt and I

think are now at the point where they

figure that they're never going to pay

it off yeah they're just going to

probably not live long enough to pay it

off and they're sort of comfortable with

that which is kind of scary to see and

some of them aren't even particularly

Big Spenders they just acred this debt

early enough and they seem to get out

from the trap of that I know other

people who you know like myself pay off

my credit card bill every month I'm like

you know I hate the whatever it is 18

plus% interest even if I'm one day late

I'm like you know and and at the same

time I'm not somebody who likes to

purchase many things I'm not a things

guy I you know I own you know one or two

watches one truck like I'm just not a

things guy but I certainly have my own

psychological relationship with money

that after talking to you today I'm sure

I'm going to realize is not optimized

either right so it's easy to point

fingers at people in these different

groups but going back to this issue of

credit yeah how has the ability to own

and use things that we don't really

truly

own basically to exceed our income level

in terms of the number and type of

luxuries that we can enjoy change the

way that people think about money and

use money because today's discussion in

your book we're talking about money as

if it's something that we have but

credit basically is living outside your

means by definition I think the

knee-jerk response would be oh it helps

you pull your consumption forward so you

can have more toys that you would not

have had in a different era and actually

think for a lot of people it's the

opposite that there are a lot of people

that have holes in their life challenges

in their life and a very easy answer if

you if you're not happy with your life

and you have a hole you're trying to

fill is well if I had more money this

problem would go away and in previous

generations previous decades you could

not just go out and have a ton of more

money you you earned your money from

your paycheck that was what you had

today it makes it easier to try to fill

that hole in your life with money and so

you can keep on getting more and more

and more and for a lot of people they

will wake up and say oh if only I had

that car my life would be better and

they go buy that car and they still feel

the same so it's like ah you know what

if I had that car and that watch then

I'd feel better they get the watch they

feel the same ah you know what's missing

the house I got to go get that fancy

house it's a continuous spiral and since

you can Finance all of that it makes it

easier and easier to go on that spiral

Will Smith SM made this incredible

realization I loved from his biography

he said when he was uh poor and

depressed he had hope cuz he could tell

himself one day I'm going to have money

and all these problems will go away and

then when he was rich and depressed he

was still depressed and he lost all of

his hope because he he had more money

than he could ever spend so he could not

tell himself if only I had more money

these problems would go away and so for

a lot of people the availability of

credit is giving them I think a false

sense of hope that's keeping them on

this on this hamster wheel of if only I

had this bigger house this nicer car all

these problems that I wake up with every

morning would go away and it keeps you

on that path which I think if you

actually don't have access to that much

money you're more likely to wake up and

say what is this hole I need to fix it

in a different way it's Health it's

relationships its purpose whatever it

might be rather than trying to put a

bandid of credit over it so interesting

I sometimes think about the phrase money

can't buy happiness and my immediate

impulse is to respond with well somebody

with a lot of money probably said that

not because I think money can buy

happiness but money can buffer stress I

have friends who've had children

recently who have night nurses they're

looking a lot more rested than the ones

that don't because they can't afford

them uh and on and on if you have a

medical issue right I mean there's this

whole world within hospitals that uh we

won't talk about in this episode but

there's this whole world about wealth

and how one is actually even treated as

a person in a hospital mhm there's a lot

of knowledge behind the scenes about

people's income level when they come

into a hospital people are going to go

wide-eyed when they hear this they'll

get shuttled to different rooms

different conditions that allow them to

sleep better recover Better Health

outcomes depend on this I mean and on

and on so money can't buy happiness but

it certainly can buffer stress and it

can drive outcomes so how should we

frame that especially if we are on the

um or in the pursuit of acquiring More

Money More wealth because lot of people

are money absolutely can buy happiness

it's often though an indirect path and

what I mean by that is will a big fancy

house make you happier and the answer is

probably yes but the reason it might is

because it'll make it more it'll make it

easier to host friends and family and

that's what's actually making you happy

it's those those extra connections with

those people does going on a nice

vacation make you happy an expensive

vacation yes because you're going to

form memories with your kids with your

spouse with your friends while you're

there that's what's making you happy so

you can't say that money doesn't make

people it does it obviously does the

other thing that's important is what

really makes people happy in their core

is some sense of purpose there's a great

quote from the movie Boiler Room where

he says people who say money doesn't buy

happiness don't have any I think that I

think there's a lot of Truth to that

that people who become richer say of

course I was happier now than I was when

I was poor of course I would never want

to go back there but often what's

happening is the reason that you are

happier when you were rich is because

the reason you got rich is because you

found some sort of purpose you built a

business you were successful in your

career career and that gave you a good

sense of purpose and identity and where

you see the opposite of that are lottery

winners who become rich but not because

they made a good investment not because

they built a business not because

they're successful and their peers like

them and whatnot they just got lucky and

those are the people so many studies

that winning the lottery will not make

you happy it might for a very short

period of time but over time it doesn't

because you didn't get any added purpose

you can't wake up in the morning and say

I built this business I did it I you

know I'm so successful I got my PhD I

did there's none of that you just got

lucky and so that's not going to bring

you much happiness so money does make

you happier I think it can for everybody

if you learn how to spend it in your

personality and whatnot uh spending a

lot of it spending a ton of money can

make you happier I think I think there's

almost no limit to it but it's different

for everybody and it's often a

roundabout way I think a lot about this

when if I go on an expensive vacation

with my kids let's say that's a that's a

10 that's a 10 out of 10 in terms of

just happiness memories and whatnot but

actually what was making me happy was

spending uninterrupted time with my kids

so staying home and playing Legos on the

living room floor with them that might

be like an eight and a half because

because that's what's making me happy

you just have to figure out like the

actual purpose I think a good formula

for a pretty good life at the simplest

level is Independence plus purpose you

need to have a purpose that is bigger

than yourself that you are chasing

family religion work whatever it might

be different for everybody you need and

you need to have the independence to

make sure you can do it on your own

terms rather than chasing somebody

else's goal

that's at the highest level of

psychological well-being Independence

and purpose and money is not one of

those things but you can easily see how

money can help those things money brings

you Independence it can allow you to

find your purpose in a bigger way you're

not chasing you're not you're not at

your boss's whim you can do whatever you

want you're independent so using money

as a tool can make you happier spending

money can make you happier but it's not

the thing that is making you happier

it's just a tool to do other things and

acquire other things that are actually

making you happy I'd like to take a

quick break and acknowledge our sponsor

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at checkout I love the story about

spending time with your kids on vacation

as unstructured time as well as spending

unstructured time with them playing

Legos at home my graduate adviser sadly

passed away very young of cancer she was

50 and I knew her kids really when they

were in the womb CU she was pregnant

with the first one and I attended the

memorial service there and um it was an

incredible thing because people gave up

gave their speeches and um and her kids

got up and by then they were I think you

know about 8 and 11 or so

and I'm sure they had a great many

thoughts and feelings that they didn't

share but the one thing that really

stood out is they appreciated how much

unstructured time their mom had spent

with them it wasn't this like big event

or something it was all the unstructured

time that she had spent with them and

that was very inherent to the kind of

person she was and so that really stuck

with me and God willing you live a very

long time but I think for anyone

listening to this and because of the

statement that conman made where that we

are not well calibrated to sense a

future regret you know that unstructured

time is perhaps one of the most valuable

things that we can give our

relationships both the people we engage

in them with and ourselves and it's I

don't think it's I don't think it's

disgusted enough there's a a

gerontologist named Carl pmer who wrote

a book great book called 30 lessons for

living and what he did is he interviewed

about a 100 centenarians and he just

said tell me about your life what what

you know what what advice do you have

for the rest of us and there's a section

of his book about money and he says of

the of the thousand people there a

thousand people he interviewed of the

10,000 centenarians he interviewed not a

single one of them looking back at their

lives said I wish I earned more money

not one but virtually every one of them

said I wish I spent more time with my

kids I wish I was nicer to people I wish

I spent more time with my friends my

family that was Universal but earn more

money was not in there whatsoever that

stuck with me mhm and as you point out

however earning money allows for the

opportunity to spend time with kids and

loved ones of all kinds it can but I

think there are a lot of people for whom

it's the opposite if you are a partner

at a law firm you're earning a ton of

money congratulations great you proba

have a big house and a nice car you're

also probably working 100 hours a week

and the things that might fill your soul

it's different for everybody this is not

Universal but what might actually make

you happy spending time with your

friends your family exercising sleeping

late uh is not available to you so

that's why it's Independence plus

purpose and I think there are a lot of

people who make millions of dollars per

year and have no Independence whatsoever

they're completely tied to their boss's

whims to their work to their employer

they might love it I'm not saying you

shouldn't do that but they have no

Independence at all I think there are

billionaires who have no Independence

because they are so tied to doing things

whether they like it or not and that's I

think a lot of people go crazy in that

situation because they're like I'm

making $5 million a year but it's not

making me any happier it's like yeah

what what would make you happier is

independence and you are pushing ping

yourself away from that you were

probably more independent when you were

15 and had no money than you are at 40

making millions of dollars a

year so then in an Ideal World which of

course doesn't exist one would find a

vocation or a Pursuit that they found

really meaningful would work really

really hard would make enough money to

then I guess retire and spend

unstructured time with the people you

love and then simply stop working in

this model that clearly is an artificial

model that I'm creating here um because

it seems like after a certain point

provided you earned that money through

an effort that you felt was

meaningful um presumably with people you

enjoy or even if it wasn't you found it

meaningful you make that money then it

seems that it's all about human

interactions at that point yeah and

what's what's true is that that that

scenario that that you know dream

scenario might be true for 1% of the

people that they can earn enough money

to retire young and then pursue whatever

they want there's an entrepreneur named

Felix Dennis who wrote A book many years

ago called how to get rich and there's a

quote in that book he says he was at the

time maybe in his 70s and worth about a

billion dollars something like that and

he said if I knew what I knew now and I

could do life over again I would make as

much money as I could retire at age 35

and plant trees and write poetry and

he's like looking back that's that's

what I should have done is do but let's

leave aside that of course not everybody

can do that what he do he kept working

he kept working even though he didn't

need more money absolutely this is

interesting because people who do

achieve a high degree of wealth at a

young age seem to keep going and we

could make all sorts of assumptions

about why it is that they do that

expectations that they uh from others um

that their ego uh literally their sense

of self in some way or perhaps entirely

is um is tied to the sense that they're

still in Pursuit um that it's somehow a

failure to opt out at that point yeah um

I mean we can speculate all day but um

what this guy Felix said really Rings

true it seems like once people reach

number and it for everyone it's going to

be different it's not going to be a

billion dollars for everybody once they

have enough resources for themselves and

the people they need to take care of

maybe a bit more as a buffer it makes no

sense to continue on that path well I

think there are a lot of people I think

you're one of them and I'm one of them

who enjoy what they do and if you and I

got to a point where we're completely

financially independent all the money

we'll need for the rest of our life I

would still be a writer you would still

do your research because we enjoy it

absolutely it's not just right and I

think if actually if you are the kind of

person who says once I hit my number I'm

done you probably don't love your work

at all almost by definition you don't uh

I think what's dangerous though is when

the money itself is part of your

identity I like being a writer I like

the process of writing but if I were to

say I have to keep writing books because

I need to make more money I just I have

to have a higher net worth particularly

if I'm past the point of taking care of

my family then at that point I think

money is actually like a liability it's

a financial asset and a psychological

liability it's taking control over what

you're doing in life if you're saying I

have to have more of it I mean if

there's anything in life where you're

like I I have to have more and even when

I get more my satiation point goes

higher and higher what is that it's an

addiction and that's it's controlling

you at that point so there are a lot of

people for whom money is a financial

asset and a psychological liability and

I think that's actually true for some of

the richest people in society that the

more like it it grows exponentially over

time the Richer you become the more

addicted to having more grows on you in

the backdrop of everything we've talked

about thus far is the biology of dope

reward um dopamine of course being a

molecule that people associate with

reward but it's really about the pursuit

of reward it's about more it's about and

it's it's no coincidence that dopamine

is involved in generating movement in

the body this is why people with

Parkinson's who are depleted in dopamine

can't generate movement and it's also

involved in generating cognitive

movement and pursuit paying attention to

things there is this idea uh that I've

been pushing for a few years now that

kind of throws its arms around a big

literature on dopamine that says that

addiction is a progressive narrowing of

the things that bring you pleasure but

your definition is actually much better

I

realize addiction is a progressive

narrowing of the things that bring you

pleasure and or safety or a sense of

safety yeah right because here we're not

talking about making more money to enjoy

things more we're talking about making

more money to avoid the sense that pain

is coming or that we are vulnerable and

for a lot of people that pain is a

social pain that they not going to climb

high enough on the social ladder that

their peers are earning more than them

that their neighbors have a bigger house

whatever it might be that's the pain

that they're trying to avoid and that is

a game that cannot be won because

gratefully thankfully there are a lot of

very wealthy people in this world and no

matter how much money you're making

there's already some there's always

somebody out there who's earning more

living better and has bigger house and a

nicer car that's always the case so if

you are on that path of I need to earn

more to climb that ladder so I can have

more than the next guy mean that's

that's a game that you cannot win and I

I think that game of comparison too also

grows the wealthier you are that you are

the billionaires are more likely to

compare themselves to other billionaires

than the minimum wage worker is to

compare themselves to somebody making

$10 an hour or whatever it's you are

more likely to compare your lifestyle

the Richer you become and since that

comparison to other people is what gives

you a feeling of inadequacy there's this

irony it's hard to wrap your head around

it and come to terms with it but some of

the most money insecure people you'll

ever meet are the richest people you'll

ever meet people who live in a 15,000 ft

Mansion yeah but he's got a 17,000 ft

Mansion things that Ordinary People

would never consider that just consumes

their life and again that's the point

where money is like the psychological

debt it's psychological liability it's

controlling their it it becomes an

integral part of their identity they

wake up in the morning and look in the

mirror and they see uh a person who

makes money that's their identity who

are you I'm a person who makes money and

that's when like your process of chasing

it just becomes like a detriment to your

happiness over time you're not using it

as a tool to live a better life you're

using it as a yard stick to measure

yourself against others

by I fundamentally believe that all

forms of addiction all forms of

addiction are fundamentally a fear of

death their way of shrinking our uh

aperture on time perception so that

we're in pursuit of something and for

people that can place their addiction

within work it has this feedback of

being quote unquote functional as

opposed to dysfunctional this is also

true for people that are continually uh

seeking Awards within their profession I

mean there these professions Academia

included but other professions where

people are constantly pinning Awards on

one another and it gives this illusion

of progress when in fact there's a whole

world of things happening now these

people often have quite healthy families

and relationships so they're not

mutually exclusive but you know I think

I know a few billionaires not not many

but I know some that are very happy they

tend to be the people that are still

working and in pursuit of new things

Avid learners but perhaps by virtue of

the work that I do which is focused on

science but also Health you know the

modern billionaires that I'm aware of

seem to be very focused on not just

making money but also trying to secure

their place on the planet for a very

long time not through Legacy although I

think many of them like to provide for

the next Generations in their family

surely not So Much by putting their

names on the sides of buildings anymore

this used to be the way it was done but

rather trying to secure their health

status because the one thing that money

can buy sort of is better health care

right but money can't buy you more years

of your life except by virtue of the

things that you are willing to not do

and do behaviorally yeah you still have

to exercise you still have to get your

sleep you have to avoid certain things

um and so the modern billionaires

often are talking about what they're

doing for their health as opposed to

their yacht their car Etc this has now

become the kind of metric for comparison

blood profiles become a sort of point of

bragging for people it's pretty

interesting uh especially given that you

just look back about 50 or even 100

years and and further back and the more

wealthy people were the less physical

labor they were doing now they're doing

more physical labor to try and live

longer so what are your thoughts on the

on the relationship between physical

health and and money I mean obviously

there's a there's a sweet spot there but

um there's no pill that people can

purchase to live longer right I I I view

it in the negative sense of the people

who work to get money so hard that it

takes a physical toll on their body and

that is so incredibly common and that's

another form of debt that you can very

easy you can easily measure your net

worth and your income you could put a

number on it very clean to measure how

do you me it's much harder to measure

your health and it's I think it's easier

for people to say yes I'm Only Sleeping

5 hours a night and I'm I'm getting I'm

I'm on my third divorce and I'm

overweight but I'm making a lot of money

this year because one is very easy to

measure and the others are are much

harder your happiness your health what

not it's harder to measure that and I I

I do think too that if you are very

wealthy particularly the very very

wealthy you get so accustomed towards I

can snap my fingers and literally get

anything a golf stream jet a mansion

whatever I I I can get it right now but

health is like this last elusive thing

that's going to that by and large you

cannot purchase and I think that drives

a lot of people crazy and that's why if

you can have anything in the world by

snapping your fingers and getting it

then you eventually move towards what's

the thing that you don't have and that's

immortality and I think that's there's a

long history of that going back to the

Robert Barons uh John de Rockefeller was

obsessed with it Andrew Carnegie was

obsessed with it if you can have

everything material in the world you're

still going to have desire and ordinary

people can sit around and dream and say

one day I'm going to have the Mansion

we're not even a mansion one day I'm

going to have a house of my own I'm

going to have a car I'm going to send my

kids to college everybody wants to dream

so if all that is a given you have all

the money you could ever spend you still

want a dream so what do you dream about

you dream about immortality and so I

think that's that's been the case for a

very long period of time what's

interesting too is that there was a uh

there was a historian who looked back at

the British purage he got a lot of data

on how long people lived in uh in

various points of the UK economy and

what he found was until about I think it

was 1750 the richest members of the UK

had among the shortest lives the poorest

people were some of them who are living

longest and he dug into it like how

could this be the richest people die the

fastest and what he found is the richest

people were the only ones who could

afford all the quack medicines and the

Sham doctors who were just poisoning

them they were poison ends to back in

the day when we knew nothing about

medicine so I think the idea of of I

want a better life and I should be able

to buy that like there's a long history

of that backfiring on people as well

yeah there's a lot of excitement right

now about stem cells and treatments that

currently are not available in the

United States that are are available out

of country and um I get asked about

these a lot most of them don't have FDA

approval yet um some of them probably

never will have FDA approval uh we'll

probably talk about stem cells another

time do you think you see this though

where the wealthiest people are spending

money on treatments that you either know

or not going to work or are a very

questionable yeah work all the time and

and that might backfire on you that

might make you less healthy oh

absolutely I mean I'll just point out I

don't have anything against stem cell

therapies I think they hold great

potential

um but there is a true story about a

stem cell Clinic down in Florida prior

to the FDA um you know bringing the

gavel down on them of injecting stem

cells into the eyes of wealthy people

who could afford the treatment um these

people had certain markers for uh

macular degeneration and other things

that can cause blindness and guess what

happened to these people they all went

blind right so that brought the gel down

on stem cell therapy generally in this

country a lot of people are getting

infusions of stem cells and related

things um out of country they're coming

back and they're walking and talking so

um and they're calling me and they're

asking what what my thoughts are and I

have a lot of thoughts I mean I think

that the the basics of longevity are

clear right I mean you want to avoid you

know head trauma and environmental

toxins those things are real and and um

if you have certain mutations like braa

mutations you know you need to be more

careful about cancer and avoid smoking

all the stuff right alcohol turns out to

be pro pro cancerous and things of that

sort but then it's you know it's

physical activity it's nutrition it's

social connection it's sleep it's

sunlight it's you know it's all the

things that I've talked about in this

podcast and that other people talk about

as well but yes very wealthy people are

looking for that edge uh to live longer

and it is true that when you start to

layer in all the basics of dos and

don'ts all all the behaviors and then

you start to augment that with a few

extra things you get the sense of more

Vigor that sort of suggests they may

live longer but you we we still don't

know right we still don't know with the

exception of exercise that we absolutely

know can enrich mitochondrial density

give people more energy and vigor Etc um

you know most most of this is still a

big question mark see I I could see uh a

very wealthy person using their money if

you are very sick and you have a rare

cancer to throw the kitchen sink at it

every excellent those those those

million dollar therapies or what not

absolutely I think it's a different

animal if you are already pretty healthy

to say I'm going to throw my money at

trying to be become immortal or close to

it whatever it might be that's that's

that's a different thing uh I totally

agree and and I think what we're talking

about here is as you said it fairly

quickly but I think I want to highlight

it um because I think it's really

important that even people who have

billions of dollars still have a sense

of of Yearning For for something that's

missing yeah or that they don't have and

in some cases that's the sustaining

factor to their well-being you say it's

also good to be in Pursuit right maybe

that's with dopamine too right we we

always want more it's it's the pursuit

of more and if you're wealthy enough to

have everything you still have a a part

of your brain it's like yeah but I want

more I want more I want more and if

you've exhausted the physical part of

the world that material part of the

world and let's leave aside the

billionaires even the average ordinary

American family that owns a modest house

owns a car that functions well owns nice

clothes will send their kids to a state

school by a lot of historical

definitions they have everything they

have everything you would ever need but

you're always yearning for more it's

always is this pursuit of well what else

don't I have and I think nothing you

what you want more than anything in life

is what you want and cannot have that's

what you're going to chase with all of

your effort is a thing that you want and

cannot have I think that that that's

where health comes in for a lot of these

people as long as you think that there's

a possibility you could get it the uh

the dopamine circuit loves you want what

you feel is just out of your reach but

might be possible to achieve I mean this

is why people throw so much money away

gambling but maybe with social media it

makes it seem so that there are

virtually anything is within your reach

because it used to be before social

media that your view of the world was

mostly your neighbors and your

co-workers and your siblings and now

everybody's view of the world is a

curated highlight real of the most

extreme events in the world so if you

are a 15-year-old scrolling through in

Instagram then what is within your reach

what looks within your reach is a

Ferrari and a private jet and a mansion

in a way that didn't exist when you and

I were kids and I think it it makes the

aspiration level that much harder and

real examples of people who went from

nothing to immensely popular or wealthy

Etc I mean gosh I would say about once a

month somebody walks right up to me and

says just watch Someday I'm gonna have

the top podcast in the world on blank

and they they're trying to seed this

thing that they've seen on social media

which are examples of people you know

kind of it used to be called rags to

riches but you know they parallels in

different universes but there's a famous

musician I think his name is Ed Sheeran

who there's still a video of him early

on saying like he knew he was going to

make it if you watch the Conor McGregor

documentary it's amazing I think it's

called notorious on Netflix even if

people aren't into to MMA they should

they should at least watch the first

part he was videotaping himself very

early on and he made this prediction

that he was going to be a world champion

and then he ends up being a world

champion right um this is great anecdote

that Kanye West used to practice his

Grammy speech when he was walking to the

train because he couldn't afford the car

like when he was an absolute nobody he

was practicing his Grammy acceptance

speech of just like absolute ambition of

where you're going yeah and I don't know

if this anecdote is true but there's the

the anote that I heard that you know

Matt Damon and um uh Ben Affleck

practicing their Academy Awards AC

acceptance speech on the school in the

schoolyard when they were kids and then

they gave their speech and they were you

know laughing about that I grew up

skateboarding so the when I first got

into it the the Tony Hawks and the Mike

mcgills and Steve cavaleros these were

the names at the time where like these

these luminaries right the gap between

us and Them was so huge by time I was a

junior in high school my best friend at

the time Paul zuanic sent in a videotape

of himself to a company called planet

Earth he got sponsored next thing you

know we're in the shop watching him

skateboard and within a year or two he

had his own PR model yeah so you I think

social media gives us not just the sense

of what's out there but it gives us very

Salient examples of people that went

from completely unknown to extremely

known just this last year there's the uh

you know the so Haw Tu a girl you know

it's interviewed outside a bar something

like she now has a very popular podcast

she has sponsors she's known literally

became one of the most famous people in

the country right and and has a

financial stream now of of income to

through her podcast and so this raises

the the the sort of idea and people's

minds or the the possibility however

remote that if somebody puts a camera in

front of you by virtue of one thing that

you say you could suddenly be a inter

internationally known person and

potentially go from quote unquote rags

to riches and if you look at the studies

when you ask teenagers what is your uh

preferred career what do you want to be

when you grow up it used to be astronaut

used to be doctor used to be

entrepreneur now it's influencer by far

is what people want to be it seems like

the quickest path to fame and wealth and

for a lot of people it is my

sister-in-law is a kindergarten teacher

she has a girl in her class who has over

a million followers on YouTube as a

kindergartener like that that that

didn't exist when you and I were kids or

it was so rare but now like like enough

people know stories like that if there

are a few of them enough people know

stories to give you the sense of hope of

like well if they could do it I could do

it too well I'll tell everyone out there

that um if you think that uh Fame is

what you want um Fame restricts your

freedom it does not increase your

freedom there's a great quote from Nal

where he says what you want to be is

Rich and Anonymous that's the sweet spot

that you want to be the opposite you are

poor and famous uh and that's that's the

hardest spot to be in but if you can be

rich and anonymous because I think

there's a a a really important concept

with money that I call social debt

which is when the money that you have

influences it changes how other people

think of you and even may maybe how you

think about yourself and you can measure

your asset it's not it's not actually

debt like it's not like debt you repay

the bank but is very much a debt in

terms of it is an anchor on your

happiness that you have to repay and

fame is the ultimate social debt and for

a lot of people their social debt of

Fame is more than the money that they

made from whatever made them famous to

begin with and there's this anecdote

from Tiger Woods where he said

he loves scuba diving because when he's

100 feet under the ocean is the only

time in the world where people aren't

taking pictures of him and asking things

of him and gawking at him like that's

that sucks that's not that you have a

lot of sympathy for somebody like that

but it does suck like you can measure

his net worth very quickly what's your

net worth just show me the number how do

you measure the liability of feeling

like you have no privacy unless you are

scuba diving that's a that's a hard

thing and at various levels a lot of

people have that even if you are uh earn

a modest income and all a sudden your

friends your family start saying hey I

could you know I heard you got a raise I

could I could use a little bit myself

that's a social debt they want you to

pay at dinner and whatnot and of course

maybe you're happy to do that you're

happy to share it but let's not pretend

that there's not a little bit of social

debt and liability that comes with every

added amount of income that you have I

mean so much of social media is just by

definition in terms of the the number of

followers being displayed Etc a number

of likes and comments being displayed is

is designed to set up these metrics of

comparison yeah the smartest minds of

the generation work at Facebook and

Instagram and Twitter to figure out how

to give you fomo how to generate a

little bit more dopamine and they're

very good at it I'd like to take a quick

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function one thing that um I wish

somebody would do maybe it's been done

is you mentioned earlier this uh not

typical but I guess semic commmon thing

of an article will come out and say you

know that the five things that um people

say on their deathbed or that they and

they look back and they mentioned that

they wish they'd spent less time at work

they wish they' spent more time with

their kids or more time in nature

perhaps has anyone ever just asked

people directly um what were the things

that they are most proud of or the

things that they really feel brought

them tremendous meaning then and as

they're passing away uh because it's

it's it's related but it's kind of the

inverse of the same question yeah Warren

Buffett brought this up one time he said

a good way to think about life is uh

it's it's it's kind of grim but he said

write what you want your obituary to say

and then work backwards to live up to it

and in that situation if you were to

write like what do you want your

obituary to say most people would say oh

I I hope it says Morgan was a good

father he was a good husband he helped

his community he was admired by his

co-workers that's what I wanted to say

and for a lot of people it's different

for everyone but it' be something like

that and why Buffett said it was

important is because nobody who's

writing their preferred obituary would

say uh would uh include the size of

their house how many horsepower their

their car had how nice their clothes

were because everybody knows it doesn't

matter and it's like uh forget who made

this idea there's a thing between resume

virtues and eulogy virtues yeah that was

uh David Brook David Brooks said that

thank you resumé virtues are you know

how much money you make uh your degrees

everything eulogy virtues is he was a

great father he was a great friend he

helped his community he was funny and I

think most people really aspire to have

eulogy virtues but they spend all their

day chasing resume virtues resume

virtues can be great I want a good

education I want a good income but what

you're really trying to chase is to use

those things to gain more resume virtues

at the end of the day so I think if you

think about it through that lens a lot

of these things become clear and that's

why like I said going on a great

vacation with my kids if that's a 10

what's really fun about that is is

spending time with them when I'm

detached from work I'm not checking my

phone every seven seconds I'm just

spending hours with my kids giving them

my full attention that's what made me

happy The View was great on the beach

cool but that's what made me happy and I

can do that at home can I and so that's

that's the difference between like going

to Maui is a resume virtue spending time

with your kids is a eulogy

virtue why is it do you think that even

though we've proud all heard by now that

you know compounding interest is great

right you put in let's say a small or a

moderate amount of money into even just

a savings account that's acur couple

percent you know varies year by year and

with the economy of course or into the

markets that over time if you quote

unquote set it and forget it just kind

of like put it there and walk away that

you're likely to make x% over time and

you can look at the plot you can you can

look at that line upward and to the

right it almost always is Jagged line

drifting upward to the right and even

just scroll over and see okay at age

whatever I'm gonna have X number of

dollars and that value is often very

high relative to where one's current

wealth is even if they're a student or

they have very little put away we we all

hear this we can see it you can run the

models it's almost trivial and yet

people don't do that even if they have

the income to save is it that hard for

us to project our emotional state and

the sorts of things that we integrate in

terms of life meaning and value into the

future that most people just don't do

that and why do you think that is I mean

I'm not asking you to play

neurobiologist here I mean I think we

both agree that that uh time perception

is is a complicated thing um but you

would think that people would just sort

of get it but we're not rational most

people aren't rational in that way they

don't save they don't invest and they

don't compound interest and so they end

up with a lot less money than they could

have and a lot more regret yeah I think

there's two ways to think about this one

is uh my Michael batnick phrased it this

way he said if I ask you what is 8 plus

8 plus 8 plus 8 you figure that out in 5

seconds that's an easy one if I said

what is 8 time 8 time 8 time 8 time 8

even if you're a math nerd that's it's

it's too hard you can't figure it out

we're not wired for exponential thinking

we just can't do it and therefore a lot

of even if you show you the numbers Hey

invest a small amount retire with a

million dollars I think it's so

counterintuitive that most people see

that like H okay that doesn't doesn't

really seem right doesn't really pass

the sniff test how big the numbers can

get how quick quickly the numbers can

get big the other thing is if you tell a

young person hey you have 50 years in

front of you to invest that's great

times on your side when you're when

you're 70 years old you're going to have

$10 million 50 years from now might as

well be 10,000 years from now you're

talking about people who are who don't

know what they're going to eat for

dinner tonight and you're talking about

like hey let's let's talk about the year

2077 like it's so far out of there even

if that's the right way to think about

it it's it's a tough way to think about

it and time perception you mentioned is

so difficult for people if I said you're

G to get punched in the face in 10

seconds like that's a fear and you're

like oh I don't but if I said someone's

gonna punch you in the face 50 years

from now you're like I'll deal with it

when I get there it's so easy to put out

of sight out of mind and so and the

other thing is Warren Buffett talked

about this a lot he said uh actually it

was Charlie Monger who said this he said

when teaching Finance to young people

people either understand it instantly or

never it's like some people are just

wired to get it and some people aren't

and that's always been the case M often

said all the time he said the iron rule

of math is only 1% of people can end in

the top 1% and that's why for a lot of

people yes you should save and invest

for 50 years let's not pretend that that

is easy or that everybody is

psychologically able to do it some

people are wired differently of course

that's the case as they are with health

and intelligence and lots of other

things so I do think there's a thing for

financial education of getting people to

understand what is possible but I don't

think we'll ever live in a world where

everyone gets it and does it I I don't

think that world has never existed and I

think will never exist because it's not

math it's not a spreadsheet it's

behavior and and we now live in a world

where we understand the dangers of

smoking and highly processed foods and

whatever it might be but even if we know

it people still do it because it's

behavioral it's not intelligence so

showing people the numbers and getting

them to do it is night and

day do you know how they got people to

stop smoking in particular young people

it wasn't by scaring them about their

health turns out the most effective

campaign to get especially young people

to stop smoking was to hijack the

inherent rebellion of Youth and to

display ads of wealthy older people in

rooms full of smoke so became us as the

youth rebelling against them the older

generation that are trying to take our

money it had nothing to do with health I

love that and it absolutely worked yeah

and uh I have friends that work on this

sort of thing in the context of Public

Health as it relates to all sorts of

Public Health initiatives and the

effective way to change human behavior

as it relates to health is to incen

Aesthetics

to incentivize fear uh or to hijack fear

of dying but even fear of dying is not

sufficient uh as compared to um

hijacking these uh cross generational uh

let's just call them frictions um that

exist so I found that to be interesting

used a math example of 8 plus 8 plus 8

plus 8 versus 8 * 8 * 8 * 8 and you said

that the human brain is not capable of

exponential thinking or most people's

brains are not capable of exponential

thinking I think um you either

intentionally or inadvertently hit on

something really important I don't know

that the dopamine reward system which is

the fundamental currency of pursuit and

reward across all time scales it's kind

of wild right one neuromodulator and

there are other things involved that

modulate that modulator but one

neuromodulator is involved in reward

Pursuit across all time scales whether

we're playing a let's say we're both

competitive enough to play a game of

chess or Checkers dopamine is motivating

the pursuit for the win or a four-year

degree or an eight-year degree or why

you would want maybe your kids to win a

soccer game like now you're like a third

personing dopamine right it's across all

time scales all scenarios it's

incredible and across many species so it

makes me wonder and I'll have to ask

some of my colleagues that uh work on

these dopamine reward schedules uh for a

living

whether or not the dopamine reward

system actually can do exponential math

it might not be able to do exponential

math it might be that the pursuit of

water the pursuit of mates the pursuit

of food the pursuit of shelter which is

what these dopamine circuits evolved

under the constraints

of whether or not they even capable of

doing exponential thinking or if it's

like the marshmallow test which got

misconstrued in many ways but it's like

yeah would would you rather have one

right now or two in the future it's I

think for a lot of people it's it's just

like there there are some people for

whom like they're wired so differently

for this so you hear stories about like

the old the the old very wealthy people

the old billionaires of when they were

20 years old they would not get a

haircut because they knew that $3

haircut would compound into $100 by the

time they're older they were just so

Wired from birth to understand this and

to have a very long perception of time

to do it by definition that's the Rarity

most people are not like that and I I

don't know if they should be either I

don't know if you should be the kind of

person in your entire life who is always

saving for a future and and never en

what you have too like that could lead

to a lot of regret as well and there are

those people so let's parse the

marshmallow test the marshmallow test I

think initially done at Stanford um I

think it was at Bing nursery school or

something like that or maybe somewhere

at Stanford if I'm wrong someone will

correct me in the comments of course for

those that don't know is you they

brought these really cute kids into

rooms and they put the marshmallow in

front of them and they told them they

could eat it now or they could wait and

they could get two marshmallows later

and then they videotaped them and the

the videos are absolutely delightful of

the kids you know distracting themselves

or having the marshmallows talk or

taking a little piece of the

marshmallows I mean it reveals as much

variation on human self-constraint

behavior as you could possibly imagine

and they're really interesting as you

know I would like to know whether the

children that were able to wait and

therefore get two

marshmallows were trying to resist the

temptation or whether or not they were

being pulled forward by the anticipation

of two marshmallows my understanding and

maybe this is this is not complete but

my understanding at least part of it was

neither of those two things the kids who

did the best and resisted it were the

ones who distracted themselves they

weren't even thinking about the

marshmallow they would sing a song they

would start playing with their shoes

they'd play with another kid and the

ones who could not resist are the ones

who just sat there staring at the one

marshmallow that was tempting them

that's too hard to resist almost

everybody will resist that it was like

the environment that they put themselves

in but they weren't thinking into the

future about how great it would be to

have two marshmallows I don't think so I

think they were they were so because

their kids are so distracted they have

the memory of a goldfish they they they

wanted they wanted to just do something

they'd sing a song they'd play with

their shoes they play with their friends

and then by Dent of doing that all of a

sudden they had waited long enough to

get the two marshmallows I think that

was at least part of it and I think

there's true for a lot of people too

take about think about the stock market

where uh so much temptation to always

watch it and see what it's doing because

we have CNBC and there's the ticker and

the lights are green and red and whatnot

for a lot of people it's impossible to

watch that or even worse in Robin Hood

you get a push notification on your

phone that's too hard to resist but you

know what you see very good investing

Behavior where people do a really good

job is when you invest automatically

every paycheck into your 401k and you

forgot your password because that

environment is is against Temptation

there's there's nothing to do you forgot

your password but if you're just

bombarding yourself with stimulus of

what to do most people cannot resist

that my way of dealing with social media

I would say compulsion not addiction is

I now um one could take an old phone um

I actually got a phone specifically for

social media so I have Instagram and X

on that phone I don't even recall the

number of that phone I airdrop things

onto it if I want to post and I I do

what uh Rogan calls post and ghost yeah

so you post and then it goes into a box

because otherwise I'm just absolutely

Blown Away by how much time can be

sucked away all of it um you tell

yourself I'm going to just look at

social media for a moment and then

you're pulled down some rabbit hole it's

just incredible the way they've designed

these algorithms to to get you right and

of course I like social I teach on

social media this conversation will

probably be you know fragments of it

will be on social media but um I think

that people don't realize how compulsion

inducing the dopamine circuitry is yeah

and once you start getting pulled down

it you're you're a different organism

altogether and uh you know it's not a

coincidence that the people who have the

largest social media accounts spend very

little time on social media this if you

spend too much you just it just get

overwhelming well you're spending time

doing things like commenting and liking

and and there's a liability to some of

that but there's a reward to it too an

immediate reward what you're not doing

is going and doing the thing that you

bring to social media that brings you

more followers and and Views yeah so I

always think of social media as uh the

last point in a funnel where I go do

things in real life like research papers

talk to people um learn and then

organize that learning into a format

that I think people can benefit from and

then put it on social media but that's

the the end point yeah and so if I stay

too long there um then I'm not getting

more material it's almost like if if I

were a farmer um you know this is like

you know once the crops ship you know

I'm not going to stand there just like

looking at the road as the as the truck

goes by yeah you got to get back and

plant more seeds and plow the field I

mean I mean so I like to think about

these things in these very basic terms

because I feel that the dopamine

circuitry has it hasn't evolved right

right but we have new new technology

that have hijacked it to some extent

Jerry Seinfeld said one of the reason he

quit his show in the 1990s was because

what made it so good and so funny is

that he and Larry David would go like

sit in a deli and watch people order and

make a joke that's where they got their

content from was observing the world but

they got so busy and so famous that they

couldn't do that anymore and he knew

that it was going to come at the

detriment of the show that it wasn't

like the ultimate reward of like how big

was the season how many people watch the

show how much money do we make what made

them great was going out and living and

doing their thing and once it came at

the expense of that it it didn't work

anymore well this raises a really key

point for people uh including myself

which is in an ideal world one can make

a living that is sufficient for their

needs doing something that you truly

enjoy doing or I would say to be

realistic

where 75% of the activities are

pleasurable yeah

maybe 15% are kind of of neutral and

then the remainder there's some

punishing features there are punishing

features in every profession yes Jeff

said if you can enjoy half that's pretty

good okay all right so I'm I'm a little

more um stringent with my with my yeah

more of an optimist than Bezos hey I

don't but then again he's Bezos um yeah

where I mean you want to be able to

enjoy your work not all aspects of it

are are going to be pleasurable but

ideally that's the case because what

we're talking about here is effort that

precedes dopamine yeah and I'm a big

believer that dopamine that is not

preceded by effort is very dangerous

it's not just things that are addictive

but by way of example methamphetamine

cocaine

dramatically and quickly Spike dopamine

levels with no effort put in with no

effort put in and then of course we know

from the beautiful work of my colleague

anmy and others that then the the

dopamine profile is that then the higher

the peak and the faster the rise to Peak

then the more drop below Baseline and

the more time it takes to return to

Baseline and typically what people do is

when they're below Baseline in terms of

their dopamine that's when they start

hitting the Hammer with whatever

Behavior or substance and all it does is

drive that Baseline further and further

and further down maybe that's a good

analogy for the lottery winner who gets

a lot of money a lot of dopamine in this

example but didn't put anything into it

you didn't build a business you didn't

work at your career you just got lucky

so it doesn't feel as good there's no

effort put into to like base it against

compare it against what you were talking

about before which is time that's

unstructured with your kids playing

Legos it's almost it sounds effortless

it's not like you're like oh I got to go

play with my is Legos I'm sure that

you're like yes like this is fun this is

this is the good stuff as they say and

so there are forms of reward it seems

that are not preceded by effort although

you had to raise those kids and your

wife had to give birth to those kids and

it's work but but in terms of what's

happening in in that limited time frame

it's just so seamless right it's just

sheer pleasure and yet that kind of

pleasure is enriching is this has me

very perplexed as a biologist I I I

still don't know the underlying

mechanisms but clearly we have multiple

paths to pleasure but I think we have

only one path for motivation and that's

dopamine but I think there are multiple

forms of pleasure and I'm certain that

dopamine that is high levels of dopamine

that are not preceded by effort are not

just bad they are downright dangerous I

feel like so much of it too with

parenting m is a slightly different

topic but it's the things that you're

not trying to have fun with that build

the biggest memories and for me it's

when I travel with my son he's nine so

we go on a lot of trips now what's fun

is not the event we're going to whether

it's skiing or a football game that's

not the best part of the trip the best

part of the trip is flying with him

renting a car with him going out to

dinner with him that's where you get all

the memories it's like it's a process of

doing it that's going to you're really

enjoying that's going to build all the

memories not NE not necessarily the the

final destination where you're going

yeah I I just want to hover on that for

a second because I can think of numerous

examples in my life where the best parts

of a relationship were like a drive home

with someone where like you know I'm

asleep for part of the time they're

asleep for part of the time and you get

back and like like you really you feel

like you really did something there's

something bonding about about traveling

with people yeah even in the absence of

external input like you're you're just

uh what is that it must be something

fundamental some fundamental circuit

about about journeying with with other

members of our species going through a

challenge with someone going going

through a journey of like we we did this

together we went through it together I

think there's so much of that if you go

on go on a long hike with somebody at

the top like you want to hug each other

like we just did that together and it's

not it's not even about being at the top

it's like the journey you did with each

other so cliche but I think it's true

for a lot of things and what's that

movie with Emil Hirsch where he um it's

a true story uh about the guy that goes

out into the Alaskan Wilderness and

lives on that bus and um sadly he passes

away there I just spoiled it for you um

but he has I think it's called into the

wild into the wild where he's um

obsessed with this notion of bonding

with nature but then in his journal a

real Journal of a guy that really died

out there um he gets to the realization

that the the the fundamental uh pursuit

in life is to experience things with

other people other people absolutely

yeah and this is why solitary

confinement is such a a torture the

extreme end of it brutal right

brutal on the other end of the spectrum

there's Freedom so let's talk about

Freedom yeah it means different things

to different people but certainly one

does not want to be enslaved by anything

including their own pursuit of work so

they I think at least two forms of

anti-freedom one would be the type that

exists within our head we have to

continue on this track because I'm

afraid of failure or I'm in pursuit of

something and we are actually enslaved

in a way that we uh s create for

ourselves in in the act of pursuit the

other is the job where you know it's

providing resources but we really don't

need to be there and yet people don't

hop off the train yeah you know they

could they could escape the the dreaded

boss or the dreaded circumstance you

know I remember a time when all I wanted

was a window at work that opened for

fresh air that's all I wanted I like all

these other things I just I just wanted

a window that opened I even tried to

find one of these like little saws to

but then the maintenance people or or

the the whatever the facilities people

told me I'd get in trouble

um we we yearn for Freedom we hate we

hate enslavement right for all the

obvious reasons in your observation what

is the best way to frame this need for

freedom and I I have to imagine that

people listening are at various points

along their their careers um what have

you observed here in yourself and with

other people you talk to wealthy not

wealthy what is freedom how do how do we

get real freedom I think there's there's

this anecdote that I love which was from

uh Franklin Roosevelt when he was a kid

I think he was like five years old he

complained to his mother one day he said

my entire life is rules and schedules

and I hate it so mom said okay Frankie

tomorrow you can do whatever you want do

the day is yours anything you want and

his mom Sarah Roosevelt wrote in her

diary that night he said that day that

he could do anything he went back to his

normal schedule he did everything on

schedule like he was supposed to do but

he was much happier because nobody was

telling him to do it and I think that's

what's true for a lot of people Freedom

does not mean you do nothing it doesn't

necessarily mean you retire it doesn't

mean you quit working I want to be free

and independent which means I want to

wake up every morning and say I can do

whatever the hell I want today even of

most mornings what I want to do is work

and be productive and put myself to use

so I think a lot of people misconstrue

Freedom as I'm going to I'm going to

ride off into the sunset and do nothing

now it's like no I think people have an

inherent drive to want to be productive

and social and do things but there's a

big difference between your boss telling

you to do it and doing it on your own

terms when I was a a junior in college

like a lot of young men I wanted to be

an investment banker that's what it

looked like power and Prestige so I got

this Investment Banking internship and

it was absolutely miserable

uh they had this saying that I is so

funny in hindsight they said if you

don't come to work on Saturday don't

bother coming back on Sunday like just

the culture of it was work as work 100

hours a week just just go nuts with it

and I hated I hated every single second

and I had to leave but it wasn't because

I was not into hard work I think I was

absolutely willing to to work hard I

just didn't want anyone to tell me to do

it and so when I became um you know not

necessarily financially independent but

I could have a job it was it was more

entrepreneurial it was like oh I will

work very hard and sometimes I might

work as hard as an investment banker I

might work 80 hours a week but it's on

my terms and I think everyone is way

more willing to do that than they are to

be told what to do I think that is an

inherent human driver and if you can use

your money for Independence to where you

can wake up and say I have the financial

flexibility to work where I want live

where I want retire when I want take a

different job move to a different

department even if it's going to pay

less that giving yourself Independence

and autonomy I think for most people is

what's going to drive that's that's

that's the highest tool that you can use

with money and what's important about

that is where do you get independence

with money it's the things you don't

spend money on it's the car you didn't

buy it's the house you didn't buy and

most people will view that as like idle

money you're saving up money it's just

sitting in the bank doing nothing no no

no it's giving you Independence and once

you view is like every dollar that you

don't spend is money that you are

actually spending on Independence it's

not Idol it's giving you a it's giving

you marginal more Independence than you

had the day before then I think that's

that to me that's why I save money I'm

not saving money because I'm a I'm a

pessimist I think it's all going to come

collapsing down I'm saving money because

I want to be independent because that's

what I think is going to give me the

most fulfillment the most happiness and

that's where the savings comes

from wow I think this is a super

important

concept how should the person who is

let's just say early midcareer who likes

what they're doing but thinks that this

is probably not the thing for them I

hear about this all the time like it's

this like yeah like it's it's good but

it's a ton of work it's unclear how it's

going to turn out but they feel like

they're already on the conveyor belt

yeah there's always this question of do

you do you stay in Investment Banking

another year to make a bunch of money

and then you get out so that you then

have the freedom to pursue something

where you have more freedom um you know

people are always playing this kind of

mental math and I don't think there's a

a clear answer unless of course you're

lucky enough that like you fall in love

with science I mean I did not become a

neuroscientist to make money and Lord

knows I didn't I mean I made some I made

a living but I if people what I was

making as a tenured 45-year-old

professor at a one of the Premier

universities in the world where the

salaries are relatively high they would

be shocked right just shocked at post

tax income is quite Low by Bay Area

standards right but did you feel like

you had Independence you could teach

what you want say what you want there

was a level of Independence absolutely

oh and I loved it and and um you know

and I still teach there and you know

it's one of these things where I

wouldn't trade it for anything I also in

terms of intellectual stimulation um in

terms of being able to look to my left

or look to my right and and realize that

most of the people at Stanford students

included are just phenomenal like their

level of intellect their Drive their

excitement for what they're doing me no

one ends up there by accident right so

that was and remains extremely exciting

yeah um but I think a lot of people

unless they they they find a profession

that they really

love or there's some feature of that

profession that that keeps them you know

looped in in a way that that feels

satisfying yeah the people Etc most

people are kind of thinking like all

right how do I work to make a living and

then you know like what what's the exit

ramp people think a lot about exit ramps

and sometimes it's a dollar amount but

also it's the idea that maybe you know

go work on their real love which might

be like gardening they want to you hear

about these these sort of hobby

interests right I'll go I'll write

poetry or I'll you know go you know

Ceramics or something like that um the

things that they truly enjoy doing H how

how should people optimize along those

musts versus want to versus sort of

aspirational goals two things come to

mind here one is like if if most people

understand inherently the dangers of

Communism or something if the

government's telling you what to do when

to do it what to say that's a bad thing

that's going to erode Society but a lot

of those people work at a at a job where

their boss tells them what time to come

in what to wear what to say how to act

what not it's so they they they really

understand it fundamentally at one level

but they're actually doing some version

now companies have to manage their

employees what not it's it's not a a a a

knock against that but I think what's

really true for Independence and people

when they if they eventually move on to

writing poetry and playing in their

Garden whatever it might be is that you

eventually is that you leave on your own

terms that whatever your exit from your

career was was because you wanted to do

it on your own terms so the thing in

Psychology called the peak end rule

where uh to simplify it minimalize it a

lot of how you remember any Endeavor

that you did in life a career a vacation

whatever it is is how you felt to the

very end and for a lot of people if you

have a great career you enjoyed your

career you helped people you made money

your colleagues appreciated you but then

you got fired or your boss came to you

and said you're too old to keep doing

this that's bad that's a that's you'll

never recover from that and you compare

that to the people who quit on their own

terms they said look I'm proud of my

career but that's enough I'm going to

I'm going to take a step back and pass a

baton to another generation those are

the people who even if they didn't

really enjoy their career that much will

look back at it fondly because it gets

back to freedom and autonomy and control

do you leave on your own terms or are

you forced out on somebody else's

schedule and so I think Maxim wherever

you go in life whatever you're doing

even if you're not an entrepreneur

maximizing for Independence and autonomy

and doing it on your own terms on your

own calendar is absolutely vital in

anything you're doing I mean Mo most

people are not necessarily particularly

as they get older are not necessarily

scared of death they're scared of a

death not on their own

terms that that's going to sneak up on

them where they're not going to have a

chance to say goodbye so I think that's

a good analogy for a lot of these things

we're we're we're we're not scared of

the ultimate outcome we're scared of not

being able to do it on our own terms

I once heard Ray doio say something

along the lines of you know the first

third of your life has spent trying to

um learn how to function in the world

then there's a kind of middle third

where you are acquiring resources to be

able to take care of yourself and people

close to you and then in the final third

of your life you want to take your

knowledge take what you've gleaned in

terms of Financial and other types of

wealth because of course there are other

types of wealth and put back you know

for subsequent Generations it a

beautiful model if you think about it I

heard it phrased as when you get older

you either become an elder or elderly

you get to choose which one do you want

to be an elder and help other people or

elderly you're just going to

disintegrate over time you got to choose

which one uh nowadays we have both the

benefit and the problem of people living

longer and maintaining Vigor longer and

therefore working longer this is

certainly true in Academia people don't

like to retire yeah they really do not

like to retire and I don't think it's

just so they can make more money I think

it's so they can stay

intellectually active people get into

science typically because they like

learning uh or academics generally they

have a campus office where they go to

and you know it makes them feel socially

connected so you can understand all the

reasons why these people in their late

60s 70s and even 80s sometimes even 90s

continue to continue to go to work it's

rare for these older generations of

people that stay in various professions

to continue to um glean resources but it

happens I mean I how old is Buffett um

993 maybe yeah he's still investing yeah

oh yeah full time okay and I'm

presumably he's going to use that money

for what either philanthropy or

generational wealth within his family is

that the plan he's already given away I

think about 100 billion okay and the

plan is to give away the vast majority I

think he announced recently that he was

going to leave each of his kids a

billion dollars for philanthropy not for

their personal use but for philanthropy

and the rest is all is all given away oh

yeah the the children of the ultra Rich

that inherit all their wealth uh I don't

know what the numbers are are there I I

know a great number of them squander it

yes but I also know a few examples of

some that really make good on that those

in those uh incredible assets that they

inherited and are you know very um

thoughtful hardworking people it does

happen there couple families I think of

all the big Rober Baron families of 150

years ago the Rockefellers probably did

it the best the Rockefellers still have

a lot of wealth the Vanderbilts by far

did it the worst they just squandered it

in a couple generations and this is

fairly well known now but it's pretty

interesting

the first Vanderbilt Heir who did not

get a trust fund for whom all the money

was was dried up the first person who

didn't get any money was Anderson Cooper

of CNN his mother Gloria Vanderbilt was

the last Vanderbilt who got a big trust

fund and Cooper I think not

coincidentally is the most successful

and probably the happiest Vanderbilt

Heir in 150 years and he's talked about

this he was like I was the first person

in my family who had to make a name for

himself the fact that his last name is

not Vanderbilt it's Cooper and didn't

get any money he was like I I had to go

out and find my own way and find my own

identity whereas all of his ancestors

their identity was you're rich from

birth that's your identity you don't

need to go out and make a name for

yourself you don't need to work hard you

don't need to create anything all you

need to do is sit here and spend your

money and it made them miserable and

Cooper was the first person look this is

this is very anecdotal not saying this

how it's going to work for everyone but

the first person who had to make a name

for himself and work for himself was the

one who was the most successful and

probably the happiest

super important concept again uh in

incredibly important I think because

people often will think that they

because they were born into families

that didn't have a lot of money that

somehow um they were given the short end

of the stick and in some sense they were

right I mean it's one thing to grow up

in a in a world with assets and another

world where you don't have assets um but

we don't often hear about the the

downside it's hard to have sympathy for

a Vanderbilt Heir who inherited $400

million on their 18th birthday

sympathy for that right right well the

show succession right you know it's all

about the the horrible uh interpersonal

dynamics of people that have a lot of

wealth because it's never enough and

they they self-destruct essentially I

think the situation is you don't have

sympathy for them but you should also

realize that if you were in their shoes

you would probably self-destruct as well

it's very difficult to do once in a

while you see someone who is completely

motivated irrespective of money you know

Mark Zuckerberg was offered a billion

dollars cash for Facebook when I think

he was 22 and he said no I don't want it

I'm going to keep going that's a

ridiculously rare personality and I

think you know most people if I

inherited a billion dollars on my 18th

birthday I probably would have no

motivation but if musk did if Elon Musk

did wouldn't slow them down whatsoever

uh Jeff Bezos did Mark Zuckerberg did

those are very rare people who have

motivation that is so detached from

money I wonder if it's the excesses of

wealth that um destroy people or if it's

the fact that the excesses take them

away from the pursuit of what delivered

the wealth in the first place for a lot

of those people it's the pursuit of

solving the problem that's that's doing

it and I've I have a good friend Patrick

oasi who phrased it this way I'm going

to paraphrase him but he said if you had

to describe the me the mindset of those

very successful entrepreneurs it's not

driven it's not motivated it's tortured

that they wake up every morning tortured

by the problems that they're not fixing

and the the opportunities that they have

not yet uh uh found and there's a famous

Elon Musk interview I think it was on

Lex Friedman where he was like you think

you want to be me the richest man in the

world but you don't and he was like it's

a storm up here it's a mess up here I

think that's true for a lot of people my

friend David SRA is a great podcast

founder love such a good guy one of the

best guys in the world I've ever met but

he say of of all the 350 Founders that

he's profiled uh only one of them has he

actually said I I would want that guy's

life it was Ed Thorp but put that aside

of the other 349 I think you read their

biography and can say I'm so glad that

they existed by most most of the time

they did a lot of good in the world they

created products that make us better off

and never in a million years what I want

his life it seems miserable because most

of the time the the simple answer is

their financial and Career Success came

the reason they're so successful is

because they devoted every waking second

of their entire life to this one problem

this one Endeavor and that came at the

expense of their family life of their

health of their mental health their

physical health and if you get a full

view of their it's easy to look at musk

and say oh richest man in the world that

would wouldn't that be fun yeah but it

came because he's had this life a

singular Devotion to well in his case

two or three different companies um and

I think if you take that full picture

it's less glamorous than it would than

it would seem and it's too tempting in

life to have Envy of someone and say oh

well I want their money and I want their

career and their relationship or their

humor like you're picking little bits

and pieces from their life but it's not

how it works you got to take the full

package and when you look at the full

package of those people who you might

envy if you actually take like a

complete view of their life maybe some

of them you would say no that is a great

life like Ed Thorp but I I think for a

lot of them if you got the full view you

would look at it and say oh that's

actually a lot different than I thought

I frame this one way if you look at this

is FL flagrantly anecdotal but among the

10 richest men in the world there are a

cumulative 15 divorces among them so

it's very easy particularly for young

people to say oh that's like I'm jealous

of that person I envy that person I want

to be that person but I think for a lot

of them if you actually got a full view

of their life it's not nearly as good as

you would

think I

think people like Elon Musk people like

Mark Zuckerberg um they represent these

you know incredibly extreme examples

that obviously um most people can't even

including me can't fathom what a day in

their life must be like you know I met

Zuck he was on this this podcast and um

it seems that he really enjoys doing

what he's doing um but I think for me

and for most people it's just like so

far out of the stratosphere of of of

understanding similar to the the amount

of wealth that they've acquired it just

sort of like what do you even do with

all of that and people go well I'd

figure it out yeah I'm sure you would

but you know it's it's just it's so

astronomically outside the scale of

one's normal kind of dopamine reward

schedules that you it's hard to imagine

and what are you going to do buy a buy a

plane as big as a state you know you

know so um but there's a place in

between struggling to quote unquote make

it and being at that EX at that extreme

where people hit that sweet spot and I

think a lot of your work is really aimed

at at least Shining Light on the

possibility of a sweet spot yeah where

you're doing something that you find

meaningful U making sufficient income

that your anxiety is buffered um you

have meaningful relationships in and out

of work and you've essentially built

quotequote good

right I mean I think uh I heard nval say

something recently where he said you

know you want resources in along the

dimensions I just mentioned a healthy

Fit

Body a calm mind and a home full of love

yeah I think it's pretty awesome list

right there and it's a lot of work

though right and with just to you know

check off even one of those four boxes a

lot of work right I think because money

is so tangible of counting it is so easy

and so tangible that even if people know

that they're going to put an inordinate

amount of effort towards making more

money at the expense of their

relationships their health their

children their friends their family it

comes at the expense because if I were

to say you know how do I increase my

income by 10% it's like I can wrap my

head around that I can give you a number

of what that would be and how I might be

able to do it but if I said how do I get

my kids to love me 10% more like ah I

don't I have no idea how to measure that

or how to even pursue it so even if I

want that because it's hard it's not

tangible it's much easier to ignore and

just pursue the thing that you can count

which is money do you have a dog I do

golden retriever I was going to say you

want them to love you 10% more get them

a puppy but but it sounds like you

already did that I'm just I'm only half

kidding um I would say that you know

dogs are not only unconditional love but

uh they have the ability to to give on a

on a you know daily basis multiple times

per day in a way I mean they give love

as as readily as they receive love it's

just it's just like this perfect

reciprocal Loop right and they're

constantly in the moment they're just

living right there this is great cartoon

a lot of people have probably seen it

it's uh a a guy and a dog sitting on a

lake and the guy's thought bubble coming

out of his head is he's thinking about

money he's thinking about work he

think's thinking about stocks the dog's

thought bubble is a picture of them

sitting on the lake they're just he's

the dog's just right in the moment just

enjoying what he's doing right there I

think that's like that's my jealousy of

when of of my dog when I look at her 24

hours a day everyone will as a dog will

recognize this they're just in the

moment they just enjoy what they're

doing whatever they're doing and

everyone including me is either uh

worrying thinking about the past or

dreaming about the future I love that

what's your dog's name if I may Lucy

golden retrievers are an amazing breed

because they also are universally loving

yeah that they they love the person that

you know they their owner the most uh

but they also love people that stop and

meet them on the street not all dogs are

like that the worst guard dogs in the

world you can break into your house a

golden retriever will just come up and

wag its tail and like yeah I love it um

let's talk about this social comparison

thing um

I'm trying to make this practical for

people that are both partnered and not

partnered seems to me that a lot

of what I've observed in terms of people

who are on the on the conveyor belt work

work work work work have a picture in

their mind of kind of where that's all

going when enough is enough and when

they plan to hop off or stay on or how

late to stay in large part based on yeah

their upbringing yeah kind of who they

are are but also the messages that

they're getting from

typically the one other person that has

the greatest degree of input right like

you could create a picture where the

spouse in either direction is saying

like we need more right right that

changes the picture completely right um

where the spouse just says like I would

just like to see you more I don't need

any more stuff yeah I just want to see

you more we want to see you more these

are the sorts of atome dynamics that I

think drive a lot of decisions about

career not just what careers to pursue

but how long to stay in whether or not

you try and make partner in a firm

whether or not your social media account

needs X number more followers or not I

think to me this is as important as the

social comparison of of your peers at

work or online the messages that we

receive by the people closest to us

about what to be afraid of what the

needs are and I don't know that people

have really parsed how to you know how

to resolve all that um but I'm guessing

you probably have some thoughts about

this well I think it's it's the balance

between it is so difficult because for a

lot of people who have families and are

working very hard at the core if you

said why are you working so hard well to

make more money why why do you want more

money to take care of my family like

it's for very good intentions but it's

coming at the expense of time with your

family and whatnot so a lot of things

it's not that you're making a terrible

decision you're you're doing what you

think is right and then if you said well

how much is enough to take care of your

family by and large it's a game of

comparison the way that people live 100

years ago that what is a good life 100

years ago is an completely inadequate

life today not even 100 years ago you

back to go back to our parents

generation and say in the 1950s there is

a Nostalgia for the 1950s of oh life was

so good then and so great and the white

picket fence and the dog and the stay-at

home mom like it was it was a good

picture but what was the definition of a

good life back then uh a good middle

class life was an 800t house with one

bathroom for four people and camping for

your annual vacation you would describe

life that most people would say that's

inadequate today that's not my

definition of a good life today so that

is Shifting all the time and therefore

you're out you're you're saying like

well how much money do you need to be

happy the truth is I need more money

than than the next family than the next

person it's this continuous chain and I

think a lot of that is just Evolution

it's a competition for resources and it

doesn't matter how much money you have

what matters is that you have more money

than the next person that's the that's

the sad Truth for a lot of this and

therefore you can easily imagine a world

in which my grand kids are earning on

average way more money than we are today

and have way better resources Better

Health better Technologies and they're

no happier for it and they don't feel

any more relieved for it they don't feel

like they can scale back and work less

for it because they're going to be

competing with other people that have

all those things John maer kan's a great

Economist very famously predicted a

world where people would be working 20

hours a week because technology was

going to make it so we didn't need to

work and that's not how it works

whatsoever we are working less than we

did back when everybody was a farmer but

not nearly as as as as little as we

could be if we still had the

expectations of a 1950s family living in

an 800t house if we had those

expectations people could be working way

less but it's all a competition between

other people so even if 100 years from

now a middle class families living in a

5,000 foot house with a spaceship in

their backyard if that becomes the norm

you don't take you don't appreciate it

any of it I mean if you took someone 100

years ago if you took John Rockefeller

the richest man in the world 100 years

ago and brought brought him to today and

showed him a middle class family in

America he would say what is this thing

Advil you take a pill that makes your

headache go away what he you have

sunscreen you just rub this on the face

you don't get sunburnt he would his jaw

would be on the floor but nobody

appreciates that today like he would

because it's just common place you your

your definition of a good life is I

expect to have that so it's always going

to be the case that the reason we're

working hard is to take care of our

family and what we feel like is an

adequate amount is a growing level over

time I should also say that that is by

and large a great thing the reason

Society progresses is because most

people wake up in the morning feeling a

little bit inadequate whatever I have

today is not enough and I need to go

work harder to get more that's why we

have good technology and economic growth

over time so at the macro level it's a

great thing that's what pushes Society

forward and better medical Technologies

all better Technologies but the

individual level it creates this hamster

wheel of a constant feeling of

inadequacy that we try to compensate for

by working harder and working harder

even when it comes at the expense of

things that should be more dear to us

like our friends and family and health

and with social media we now have access

to Millions if not billions of

comparison points whereas just 30 years

ago even 20 years ago we only had access

to local comparison points like the

people in your neighborhood drove

certain types of cars now online you can

see people that you went to high school

with that have certain lives and their

vacations that are spectacular relative

to the ones that you know one typically

has I'd like to to talk about this

notion of social comparison as as a

function of place um we can touch on

some major cities we were doing this

before we started recording it's kind of

fun to do like in the Bay Area in

Silicon Valley area where I grew up um

it seems like there's a a High um

there's a high value placed on the

people who manage to do things that Wick

out to the entire world the building of

companies or technologies that go

everywhere it's not just because of

Facebook and Instagram it's um also

because of Biotech it's because of all

sorts of things um apple right I mean

there's a whole history of that um what

would you say for like New York City

what like what is the dominant message

that's being pumped into the psyche of

New Yorkers um and by the way I love New

York City but it'd be fun to play this

game a little bit as an example and then

we'll then Wick it out to to people

regardless of where they live in the

world this is one of those things where

what is so good and beneficial for

society is what makes indiv miserable so

I think what is the message here in Los

Angeles or in New York or or any other

big city San Francisco the message is

waking up in the morning and feeling

inadequate because you are surrounded by

people who at least look like they're

doing better than you and you say I have

to I have to chase that person I have to

get what they have that is great for

society that's where we get new

technologies new Innovations and growth

at the individual level it's very

difficult I grew up out in the woods in

Lake Tahoe and in that region uh if you

are a dentist let's say you are on top

of the world you are the richest guy in

town everybody looked up to you you had

the nicest house the nicest car if you

are a family dentist here in Los Angeles

you don't stick out whatsoever you might

you might feel like you are so far

behind because you're surrounded by

legitimate billionaires and so I think

it's interesting to ask is a dentist

happier in Lake Tahoe or here I think

it's probably in Lake Tahoe because your

comparison group is so much less

especially back in the pre-social media

days the states that are statistically

the happiest in the United States it's

not it's not for cities it's not Los

Angeles it's not New York tends to be in

the midwest where wonderful places

whatnot but less competitive than the

grind of the big cities and so but

that's where you know if at the

individual where are you happiest it's

where you have less comparison but for

society what is better it's when you

have a huge competition for getting

ahead so I don't know I I don't know

where I come down on that of like where

I would want to be of course I want to

be happy as an individual but I want to

live in a in a society that is moving

ahead and the reason it's moving ahead

is because most people wake up feeling

inadequate you GRE up in Tahoe yeah um I

love Lake Tahoe but can I ask you did

you grow up being competitive or

thinking about um how well people skied

or snowboarded yes absolutely it was

also I lived in Tahoe pre pre- Tech

money it's very different now because so

much Bay Area Tech money just flooded

into it it's its own little Hampton now

but back in the day it was like I felt

like when I grew up normal people drove

old pickup trucks and rich people drove

new pickup trucks that was the

difference between rich and poor and

both in a city like Los Angeles New York

and in a social media World especially

it's normal people drive Honda Civics

and rich people have private jets like

the the stratification between them is

is just blown so far out of proportion I

see this with my nine-year-old son who

like a lot of kids watches Mr Beast who

I think is great I think he's an awesome

awesome guy but it's completely warped

my son's sense of money because Mr Beast

will be like oh keep your hand on the

table and the and the last person with

their hand wins a million dollars it's

like if if if that's your sense of money

it's complet warped and and skewed and

so look I it's it's it's a tough way to

live and I think the more of that angst

that people have of I'm inadequate I

need to get ahead the better Society is

going to be the more technology we're

going to have great example of this is

what decades were the most

technologically Innovative by far it's

not even close it was 1930s the Great

Depression and the 1940s World War II

when Society was on fire that's when

every business every scientist every

entrepreneur woke up every morning and

said I need to figure this out right now

today immediately during the Great

Depression if you were a business owner

it was if I don't figure out a way to

become more efficient I'm bankrupt

tomorrow so that was the birth of a lot

of the assembly lines it was the birth

of the grocery store the birth of the

laundromat every business got more more

uh uh just better at at at what they do

and the ones that didn't went out of

business immediately World War II was if

we don't figure out new

technologies uh we're we're we're going

to lose everything Hitler's going to

control the planet so that was nuclear

energy radar jets go on down the list of

things that we benefit from today happen

because of that social angst that we had

back then and so I think there's so much

evidence that Society progresses when

things are a little bit on fire not too

much on fire because then you just get

overwhelmed with it but if you have a

little bit of angst of I need to wake up

I I need to do this and when society's

become fat and happy and decadent or

when companies do this companies that

just are minting money and there's no

pressure on it they have more money than

they know to do with that's the downfall

of a lot of companies Sears IBM Intel

Boeing who are either not around or are

shells of their former S I think you can

tie a lot of that to the success that

they had in the past when there was no

pressure to innovate and get and get

ahead it was just a culture of we have

so much lying around here that we can do

anything that we want I I I had a guy

tell me one time who said every business

should have a little bit of debt uh

because it keeps you in check keeps your

Ambitions in line of waking up and being

like no I have to succeed this year

because we have debt to pay off

and when you have too much freedom and a

little bit too much autonomy you have a

higher chance of just letting it slip

away what made you great when you are

young and poor and broke and hungry uh

slips away when the wealthier you become

tell me what you think of this mental

exercise as you're describing this to me

I'm thinking about um how at different

stages of my career first academic

science and I still teach but I'm shut

down my animal lab still involved in

some human research but mainly focused

on the podcast the these

days um I can look to different things

around me that were the the force is

pulling on me I like to think in terms

of carrot and stick you know for those

that don't know what that is because we

have a lot of listeners from outside the

US carrot you know carrot is the thing

you're working towards the the enticing

thing the reward stick is the is the

punishment carrot and stick because

frankly that's how the brain works

carrot and stick right um and a lot of

what we're talking about today is carrot

and sticks of different different sizes

different types

etc for every stage of my career

graduate student

postto professor before tenure Professor

after getting tenure it's kind of

interesting concept people think of it

as job for life but it's really academic

freedom and you're still on the

fundraising treadmill or even as a

podcaster you know like what the force

was inside me and not trying to make

this about me I just kind of I know that

there are different people that I'm

trying to

satisfy and of course satisfy my own

curiosity and intellect but there there

are forces there's the I'm part of a

group I'm part of a team here I can't

let them down so it doesn't matter how

well I slept last night I happened to

sleep pretty well last night but doesn't

matter I got to show up right got to

suit up and show up as they

say do you think it's worthwhile for

people to stop wherever they are in

their life Arc and just think about like

where are these these forces pulling us

the carrots and the sticks because I

think there in lies a lot of information

um are you working for an expectation

that you need to fulfill because you did

it before I sometimes think about

professional athletes they sometimes

have a shorter professional life than in

other careers because just physical

capabilities give away but you know like

what drives them I often want to know

like what pulls them like where do they

feel

obligated you know not just you know

what the drive is but where do they feel

obligated where do they feel like kind

of pulled is it to the general public is

it their parents is it their Bank

account is it the fear that they're

going to have to retire at some point do

you ever think about this kind of stuff

I think a lot of it is tied to your

identity of just who do you see in the

mirror when you wake up every morning

and if your identity is I'm a

professional athlete if your identity is

I'm a podcaster I am a rich person

whatever it might be then that's that's

what's pulling you it's that source of

your identity so this gets back to the

Paul Graham idea of keep your identity

small I think he met it in meant it

mainly in the context of politics of

politics can just poison your identity

and it it it really affects your

thinking but keeping your identi small

for a lot of things I think is a great

point of view the more you look in the

mirror and say I am a blank doesn't

matter what that is I'm a professor I'm

an author whatever it is it's hard to

give that up because it's part of your

identity I saw this with my own with my

own dad who was a he was a doctor and he

retired and he went back to work a year

later because I think at least part of

it was when he looked in the mirror he

had to say I am a doctor that was his

identity and when he retired he couldn't

say that anymore and it drove him crazy

I think that's true for a lot of people

now that could be great for him it was

great and I think for me my identity I

think my core identity is I'm a father

I'm a husband I hope to be a friend but

then maybe it's I'm an author and if I

had to give that up it might might sting

a little bit it's not maybe the core of

my identity but it's right there and I

think for a lot of people if you're

successful core to their identity is I'm

a person who makes a lot of money I'm a

person who makes X dollars per year and

they're unable to give that up and

that's that again I think if we're

talking about money that's when money

becomes a liability is when it's

ingrained in your identity and it's

controlling you you're not using it as a

tool

it's using you as its little marionette

doll to control you every day and I I

think that's that's when a lot of people

go astray with their happiness with

money is when it starts controlling them

because it's so core to who they see in

the mirror every day yeah that's like

that cartoon of the person standing with

a little cage in front of their face

like they're they're giving up Freedom

by virtue of some mental construct right

I wonder if um perhaps even better than

uh Paul's idea of shrinking one's ident

to make it operational and make it verb

based because it's one thing to say I'm

going to not use my professional title

of podcast or Professor author doctor

but if one gets to the verb function

that drove the pursuit of things in the

first place I enjoy doing this I'm a

curious person like like you know I have

the I seem to mention him all the time

and I'm just going to do it because it's

my podcast um Rick rubin's a close

friend and I feel so lucky for that

friendship of course I love love the

music he's produced but that's not why I

love the friendship I happen to just

really think Rick's a great guy but

because he's so verb and action-based

it's about almost everything Rick talks

about in terms of creativity and

productivity is about discarding with

titles and concepts of who you were

before and just being in the verb state

of wherever you happen to be at that

point in your life and creating

offerings

yeah and he actually likes to remove the

concept of an audience he actually talks

about this is your offering to God and

the the audience may or may not like it

but that in his words are the way is the

way to frame it because otherwise you

end up trying to satisfy people

absolutely and then you're no longer in

the process of of of exploring your

curiosity or creativity so yeah I've

decided at this moment and I'll make it

I'll put it on record that I'm not going

to think of myself as a podcaster I mean

I did a lot of things I did you know

pursued skateboarding pursued you

tropical fish tanks pursued you know uh

science and and research scien teaching

which you know and then this public

education and podcasting I fully expect

that in 5 to 10 years I'll be doing

something completely different but it'll

still be attached to the verb state that

drove every single one of those

professions yeah or every every single

one of those Pursuits because as Rick's

taught me it's the energy that you need

to continue to tap into that is

self-rewarding the feelings of delight

of friction and then release when you

solve a problem it's not really about

the profession or the title or even the

the resources that come from that but

that in fact the greatest resources in

particular Financial Resources coming

from identifying the verb state of being

in pursuit of something that's truly

unique to you yeah and that changes over

time I'm always amazed at these examples

like the Warren buffets and these people

have been investing their whole life you

pointed this out in your book that one

of the the uh fundamental things about

Buffett being so successful is that he's

had a lot of time investing since he was

11 and he's 93 right it doesn't seem

like he needs another venue it seems

like he's got dialed that's his venue if

he were if you were a golfer he'd be

golfing at 93 yeah he's he's doing it

because he loves to do it I think I

think it's for me as a writer what's

always been the case wonder if this and

I think this might might might really

apply to your own career I've always

written for an audience of one which is

myself I just want to write things that

I think are interesting I want to write

stories that I find appealing I want to

write it in a style that I would enjoy

reading and I don't I don't care that

much about the audience who might read

it of course I I want them to read it

and maybe buy the books and enjoy it but

I'm writing for myself and I think you

always do your best work when you do

that if you're writing or producing a

podcast for an audience of one which is

you and so um I think if you're doing it

otherwise it's performative and and

people do much worse work they're much

less creative they're much less

enjoyable when it's when it's

performative when you start off by

asking what does the audience want to

hear or see do that but that's what most

people do and even what does every

writing 101 teacher teach their students

know your audience I don't I don't think

it's good it's good advice because know

your audience very quickly becomes

Pander to your audience not just as

writers but in any form of work that you

do pandering to your boss pandering to

your quarterly metrics whatever that

might be you're always going to do your

best work if you have the independence

and the autonomy to have an audience of

one which is yourself Brian chesky of

Airbnb talks about this he's like don't

build a product that a thousand people

like build a product that 100 people

love or that one person you love and use

it that's when you're going to do always

do your best work you're not trying to

manage a product or a book or a podcast

towards some Metric or goal you're doing

it cuz you love doing it much easier

said than done for a lot of careers

because if you're working for a company

you you do have metrics you have to

follow you do have formulas and policies

you have to follow so it's not that

everyone can do this but it's it's

unavoidable that you're always going to

do your best work when it's yours and

you're doing it for yourself not because

you're trying to reach some Metric I

guess the phrase you know be a lifer I

used to think that meant if you were a

musician stay a musician if you're in

finance stay in finance but I think now

I'm going to revise that to one wants to

be a life for at tapping into the energy

of pursuing things that are really

meaningful to them in that moment yeah

in that phase of life because it's so

different I mean when I was a kid I was

obsessed with fish tanks and tropical

birds and then skateboarding punk rock

music and it changed I mean the venue

changed but we don't really change as in

in terms of identity very much right

these professions and the these bank

accounts and we don't

actually we're not fundamentally Changed

by them it's it's really a bunch of verb

States that that drive all this and I

actually hope that in 20 years I'm doing

something different that I'm not writing

about the same topic so maybe I maybe I

hope I'm still writing and thinking and

reading and learning but if you're

always doing the same thing I think

someone like Buffett is an incredibly uh

Oddball Rare Bird who's been doing the

same thing for 80 years and loves it

like I I want to grow and adapt and

evolve in in what I'm doing but if

something becomes core to your identity

then it's hard to release that and let

go you feel like you have to keep doing

it even when it's not that fun anymore

and you're not getting the the the

dopamine Rush of trying something new

you're attached something you keep being

a lawyer whatever it might be because

that's your identity even when you don't

like it

anymore think about Michael Jordan

playing baseball which he did for a

little while he wanted to play

professional baseball yeah so he gave

himself the shot I think it's awesome

even though it didn't turn out as well

as it basketball turned out for him it

just because it it just reflected his

inherently competitive you know high

performance nature to keep doing

something or bzo so I keep bringing up

but you build the biggest most

successful company in the world Amazon

what what do you do in your retirement

you start a rocket company kind of thing

it's like you you like maybe he did I I

don't know this I don't want to put

words in his mouth but maybe he did get

a little bit bored with Amazon and it

was he needed to do something else but

he's not going to retire he's not going

to play golf he's not going to sit on

his boat he's going to go build another

company always have to be doing

something even if it's growing and

adapting you're working on a new book

and uh I eagerly anticipate the release

of that new book when's it coming out

September 2025 okay so we got a little

while to wait

um are you willing to share a few things

that you're thinking about or that um

you know we might to see in that book

yeah I think there there are pieces of

the book that you and I have talked

about today uh but the book is called

the art of spending money and I I make a

point of the book is not called the

science of spending money because

spending money is not a science it's not

something where you can say here's the

formula that works for everybody it's an

art and what is an art it is different

for everybody it's subjective it's often

contradictory and that's I think that's

what way to spend money should be so at

no point in the book do I say here's how

you should spend your money because I

don't think anybody can accurately do

that for a broad audience it's a look at

the psychology of Envy of keeping up

with the Joneses of social aspiration of

identity that we've been talking about

managing money and kids of being jealous

of other people of wanting to get

attention for yourself it's a look at

the psychology of that without offering

any firm concrete advice which I would

say a lot of people don't like that a

lot of people are like well just tell me

what to do

but I I try to make a point in the

beginning same with my first book

psychology and money of I can't tell you

what to do because I don't know you and

what's what's right for you is going to

be maybe not right for me you have to

figure it out for yourself but I can

tell you what's probably going through

your head as you're going on that

journey I can tell you about the

psychological pitfalls and challenges

and advice uh of that is that is

psychological it's not what you should

do but here's how most people and why

most people fall for envy and why if you

understand the mechanics of Envy how

silly it can be that's that's what the

book dives into

in a lot of ways what sounds like you're

describing is um kind of identifying the

sources of self- Seduction yeah where we

we by virtue of social media or just by

virtue of Being Human We compare what we

have to see if it really is what it is

uh you would think that we would be

pretty good as a species at just

experiencing things kind of like the dog

sitting next to the lake given that we

can understand that we have this

propensity to you know compare and um to

regret things of past but not be able to

anticipate future regret you'd think we

be we would be better at that but

clearly we're not well this I guess this

gets back to basic Evolution Evolution

doesn't care if you're happy it cares

that you reproduce and you grow over

time that's that's what it's maximizing

for it doesn't really care whether you

have a good time during the process make

more of yourself and take care of the

young and then you're dispensable keep

going Lis K says more of me that's

that's what we're trying to do and and

and whether you're happy or not doesn't

doesn't really play into the situation

and actually might reward the person who

is gaining a ton of resources even if

they're miserable in the process who's

making a ton of money in the process

even if they wake up miserable every

morning they're gaining a lot of

resources that might increase their

their Fitness over time happiness

doesn't play much of a role do you think

birth rates are going down because um

people feel that they have to use more

of what they earn for themselves or that

it's harder to establish a relationship

to money and resources that makes them

feel capable of taking care of others I

think it's it's so complex it doesn't

lead to simple answers but I think there

is a lot of evidence that what happens

why societies all over the world this

has always been the case have fewer kids

when they become wealthier is because

their expectations for those kids go up

so if you're living in a in a poor

Society poor economy or during a poor

era you could have 10 kids because you

knew all 10 of those kids or at least

the ones who survived were going to

become Farmers that's what they were

going to do and uh that was that was

their only hope that was all they could

do and you didn't need to provide a lot

of resources for them if I give them

basic food and shelter and clothes

that's all they need to become a farmer

and I think if you fast forward to

today's economy the expectations are so

much so much higher where you want your

kid to become a PhD to become an

astronaut to become a hedge fund

whatever it might be and there because

of that you need to provide so much more

resources for that kid I need to Foster

their growth and development from the

time that they are infants and provide

them tutors and after school activities

and maybe send them to private school

and definitely send them to a college

which is going to cost a fortune because

the expect ations for what you need to

provide are so much higher you feel like

you can only provide that to maybe one

maybe two kids which would have been a a

couple Generations ago three or four

kids and a couple Generations before

that 10 kids there's also a very Grim

statistic about it used to why do people

used to have 10 kids because six of them

died before they were five and so if you

needed those hands on the farm you

needed to have a lot of kids to make

sure you had a lot of teenagers who

could help you one day and so I think

we're blessed to now live in a world

where thankfully the infant mortality

rate is collapsed so much that we don't

need to play that Lottery game that we

used

to what are you teaching your kids about

money and it what age should uh we start

to do that and for those listening who

don't have kids um I suppose it's never

too late to learn I think one one of the

points I always make that I've learned

the hard way parenting is I I I don't

think you need to sit your kids down and

teach them about money because they're

paying attention whether you know it or

not kids are so incredibly good at

learning they're better learn they're

better at learning than adult are

particularly for things like language

and whatnot but you don't need to say

sit your kids down and say this is how

much we spend and this is what we value

and this is why I say they're paying

attention they're figuring it out every

time they hear you say I can't afford

this every time we're at the store and

they say oh look this is on sale let's

get two of these they're making a mental

note of everything every time they hear

you bicker about work every time they

hear you talk about a raise even if it's

just in the Next Room they're piecing it

all together and I don't think they even

know it but they're so good at learning

that they're building a mental model and

so even if never sit your kids down and

teach them by the time certainly that

they're teenagers they know a lot about

money and maybe some of those things are

are good maybe some is bad but they're

paying attention and so I think the only

thing you can do as a kid or as a parent

I should say is to lead by example

because we talked about this earlier the

propensity to Rebel as as a kid as a

teenager you talked about the smoking

ads where they just wanted to do the

opposite of what everyone else is doing

I think particularly for teenagers which

I don't have yet um but if you sit them

down and say this is what you should do

you should always do this you should

never do that their propensity to Rebel

is enormous so I think I I should think

it can backfire if you try to teach them

I think the best you can do the only

thing you can do is lead by example with

people one thing that a lot of not just

very wealthy people but moderately

wealthy people will say is and ask is

how do I teach my kids about money

without spoiling them how do I use my

money to help my kids without spoiling

them that's that's a big topic for a lot

of people even if you're like a a

middle- class family how do I you know

leave a small inheritance or help my

kids should I buy them a new car or

should I help them through College I

think a big thing that is is easy to

overlook uh is two things you might

think as a parent that you are teaching

your kid grit and independence by

withholding resources from them and

you're doing it very well-intentioned

you need to earn your I earn my money

and this is mine you got to go figure

out your own I think it is very easy to

overlook that you are not teaching your

kid Independence and grit you're

teaching them to resent you and I I have

a good friend Chris Davis who told the

story now he's an extreme example Chris

Davis's grandfather Shelby Davis who was

a billionaire investor one of the

greatest investors of all time and Chris

tells a story that uh when he was a kid

and his grandfather took him skiing his

grandfather would say if you want me to

buy you a lift ticket you need to hike

up the hill first and ski down hike to

the top and if you do that then I'll buy

you a lift ticket and Chris said the

lesson that they learned from that was

not grit and Independence and hard work

the lesson they learned from it was

Grandpa's kind of a jerk sometimes and

it's I think that's an extreme example

but you see that a lot with with kids

one like very practical takeaway from

this is that I think as a parent you

have to live the same lifestyle as your

kids it's very difficult to say Mom and

Dad fly first class but you're back in

coach does anyone actually do that oh

absolutely and maybe that's maybe that's

still a very extreme example but what

the you think as a parent that the kid

is learning is oh if I work as hard as

Mom and Dad one day I'll be sitting up

there and they don't the lesson they

learn is Mom and Dad are think that they

are superior to us or Mom and Dad are

superior to me I'm inferior to them I

think this is why you see a lot of very

wealthy kids who are just

psychologically broken because I I think

you have well-meaning parents who are

like look we're very wealthy but you're

not you got to earn your way and all the

kid hears throughout their life is I'm

inferior I'm inferior I'm inferior I'm

inferior and by the time they they

become adults that's it's so ingrained

into who they are that they can't take a

step forward they can't advocate for

themselves and so look that's that's

what the very wealthy deal with but I

think that's that's what I think a lot

about with kids the other thing that

every parent with more than one kid will

uh understand and recognize this my two

kids are could not be more different

their personalities their goals uh even

with the same parents living under the

same roof they are roof they are a

million miles apart and so had if you

say had like what what are you teaching

your kids like I I I don't know who

they're going to be when they grow up I

don't know what their goals or their

aspirations are going to be so is it

right for me to tell my daughter like oh

here's how you can save and become super

wealthy over time what if she doesn't

want to live that life what if she does

have more of a YOLO personality of like

oh I just want to go travel the world I

don't I have no aspirations to become

super wealthy and retire early uh so you

have to let them them figure it out for

themselves and realize that what might

be right for you and what may have been

right for the era in which you and I

grew up in might not be right for them

it might not fit the era that they grew

up in I like this saying um none of us

know what it's like to be you know

picking age 13 years old in 2024 we

think we do because we were 13 years old

at one point your earlier descriptions

of uh depriving kids of the first class

ticket um putting them in coach and and

the the parents flying In First Class it

it makes me realize that we like to

think that those sorts of things will

drive integration of the lesson but each

one of your examples pointed to the fact

that kids are integrating based on the

emotion they experience at the time

they're not thinking about the larger

lesson they're thinking about in there

in their moment they're think I'm hiking

up this hill and this sucks and they're

not piecing together things over time

I'm like okay I'm doing this and he's

trying to teach me a lesson right there

it's really uh they're very attached to

their immediate feelings right and maybe

it would be different in Chris Davis's

example if the grandpa hiked up the hill

with them because then the lesson you're

taking is like oh we're going to do this

together and and that is teaching the

value of hard work I'm going to do it

with you I'm going to suffer with you so

leading by example rather than by

humiliation I think is the way to do it

with

kids when I was a kid um my dad used to

walk me to this point along our street

where then he would split off to go to

work he so a scientist he would go to

his laboratory and I'd go off to to

kindergarten in first grade and I

remember one day asking him what he did

for a living and uh he's a physicist and

uh and he said well I'm a physicist and

I said what's that and he explained a

little bit about what it was and I'll

never forget we still talk about this he

and I I'll never forget um I said do you

like it and he said well you know that

feeling the night before your birthday I

said yeah and he said I feel like that

every day and then I think he also said

and I'm still a little bit murky on this

one I need to touch base with him about

this sometime again soon was he said

yeah you don't always get presence it

doesn't always work out but the feeling

that you might or that you're likely

going to or there's a possibility that

just feels so good and I think I must

have internalized that lesson because

what I like is work yeah I don't think

I'm addicted to work although someone in

my life have accused me of that um and

I'm willing to be open to that

possibility but it wasn't even really

about Discovery it was about the

possibility of discovery

and so I I think in in terms of teaching

to kids and teaching to peers and you

know teaching among

humans getting people in to think about

the verb states that really motivate

them from the best place seems to be the

kind of General theme throughout today's

discussion and in your book somewhat I'm

not trying to summarize to to too fine a

point here but if I may it seems like

get and what Rick Rubin has said about

you know he has this like just

Supernatural track record at bringing

out the best creat ative elements in

people from different genres of music it

seems to be about tapping into these

verb states of like what is the thing

that brings out your best as opposed to

thinking about the rewards that come

from that yeah but it's hard right we we

see those numbers we see those the

followers the dollars Etc we see the

metrics of comparison it's tough it's

it's it's there's a work to this that is

not obvious I think it'll always be like

that we're never going to live in a

world where people uh don't compare

themselves to others we're never going

to live in a world where people don't

feel in adequate to others who have more

than them but back to kids I think this

is a a great Pace to place TI this

together if you ask most parents what do

you want for your kids most parents will

say I just want them to be happy I just

hope I I hope they're happy one day and

then if you said well do you hope that

your children are rich and successful

parents might say like yeah but mainly

just happy like I I just want them to be

happy regardless of what they're doing

if they're a kindergarten teacher I want

them to be happy and I think um the

parents themselves say that because they

haven't done that themselves because the

parents themselves have chased money

over happiness and they see the downside

of it and I that's that's very common

and that's why they say I I I hope my

kid does this because I haven't done a

good job of that myself because the

Temptation is to do that is to pursue

something that's not going to make you

is going to make you richer but not

necessarily happier now that's not an

argument against money or working hard

which I want to do I want to work hard

and make money and have more money of

course but I think you there's such a

stark difference between using money as

a tool to make yourself happier versus

as a yard stick to compare yourself

against others by and so much in the

modern world is is the latter we're not

using money to make ourselves happier or

Freer or more independent or to sleep

better or to spend more time with the

people we enjoy we use money to measure

ourselves against other people it's just

do I have more than you is my car faster

than yours my house bigger than yours

and all of that is completely separated

from what we actually want like for our

kids and ultimately for ourselves which

is can I use this to become happier and

live a better life what a wild concept

but it seems just spoton

so we need to think about money a little

differently or a lot differently if we

are

to get the most satisfaction from our

work and from resources it requires a

lot of looking in the mirror into saying

like who am I and what do I want I think

that's the biggest thing particularly

when we started this conversation by

saying everybody is different what's

right for me is not right for you

inherent in that is that you have to

understand yourself and a lot of people

a lot of financial damage is done when

people have a financial plan that is

right for another person but it's wrong

for them and that's dangerous because

it's the right financial plan maybe for

a lot of other people so it makes sense

it's rational it makes sense on paper on

the spreadsheet looks good but it

doesn't fit your personality that's when

a lot of damage is done so I think to do

better with money you need to spend a

lot of time thinking about who you are

and your family and your goals and your

aspirations realizing that all those

things will change and adapt over time

so what was right for you 10 years ago

might not be right today and you know in

a way that might seem selfish like

tuning out the rest of the world tuning

out other people and co-workers and and

neighbors and whatnot and being just

saying how can I use this as a tool to

become happier to live a little bit

better life like what's the purpose of

money if it's not that I love it well

Morgan thank you so much for doing the

work that you do it's an incredibly

unique perspective on this thing that we

all have to deal with grapple with and

and uh hopefully can develop a a

symbiotic relationship with money and

it's clear from talking to you today and

also from reading your book that you

know there's a a strong central cord of

benevolence in all of this I I don't

know if that was your intent it seems to

just come through in who you are um but

when I read your book and as we talked

today it's just so clear like that you

want the best for people uh so I think

that's an important thing to highlight

because there are a lot of people out

there telling people how to make money

uh what to do or not to do with their

money but you're telling us how to live

more meaningful lives which is uh

something just order of magnitude more

important so for that and the work that

you've done and that you're doing I'm

eagerly anticipating your book next

September uh and for coming here today

to educate us thank you ever so much

this has been so much fun thank you

Andrew thank you for joining me for

today's discussion with Morgan housle to

learn more about Morgan's work and to

find links to his two superb books the

psychology of money and same as ever

please see the links in the show note

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it's entitled protocols an operating

manual for the human body this is a book

that I've been working on for more than

5 years and that's based on more than 30

years of research and experience and it

covers protocols for everything from

sleep to exercise to Stress Control

protocols related to focus and

motivation and of course I provide the

scientific substantiation for the

protocols that are included the book is

now available by pre-sale at protocols

book.com there you can find links to

various vendors you can pick the one

that you like best again the book is

called protocols an operating manual for

the human body if you're not already

following me on social media I am hubman

lab on all social media platforms so

that's Instagram X formerly known as

Twitter threads Facebook and Linkedin

and on all those platforms I discuss

science and science related tools some

of which overlaps with the content of

the hubman Lab podcast but much of which

is distinct from the content on the

hubman Lab podcast again that's huberman

lab on all social media platforms if you

haven't already subscribe to our neural

network newsletter our neural network

newsletter is a zeroc cost monthly

newsletter that includes podcast

summaries as well as protocols in the

form of brief 1 to three page PDFs those

1 to three page PDFs cover things like

deliberate heat exposure deliberate cold

exposure we have a foundational Fitness

protocol we also have protocols for

optimizing your sleep dopamine and much

more again all available completely zero

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the menu tab scroll down to newsletter

and provide your email we do not share

your email with anybody thank you once

again for joining me for today's

discussion with Morgan howel and last

but certainly not least thank you for

your interest in science

[Music]