Understanding Today’s Design Job Market (Figma’s New Study + Daniel Wert)

Daniel, thanks for being on.

>> Andrew, thanks for having me.

>> Uh, you are the CEO of Wharton Company, which is a multi-deade design, recruiting, especially design leadership recruiting firm. I'm just so excited to talk to you about some new

research that we have, some findings that we have. Let's let's get into it.

>> Always a pleasure and yeah, happy to help. we had these findings that the

help. we had these findings that the demand for designers is high and the the interest in design remains very high. Um

what are you seeing from your side? Um

and any like quantitative data that kind of like support what you're what you're finding?

>> I mean I'll definitely echo that. I

think design hiring has picked up quite a bit in the last 12 months. We're

taping this January 8th. I guess talk talking about 2025 in retrospect.

[snorts] that >> I things have definitely picked up from from 2024 which was I think for all intents and purposes a slower year not necessarily for us as a firm we stay

small we only work on a few searches at a time but you know industry at large and specifically with the within the design community you know obviously there were a ton of layoffs in 2024

companies tighten their belts we can talk about those dynamics and here in a bit but >> it definitely feels like companies realize as they overcorrected a bit in

that year. In 2025, you saw a bit of a

that year. In 2025, you saw a bit of a resurgence. I'm cautious to predict what

resurgence. I'm cautious to predict what 2026 will look like, but if the trajectory holds, I think we're in for a good year.

>> Yeah.

>> Hopeful. Cautiously optimistic.

>> And you you usually work on leadership searches, too. And and um not always

searches, too. And and um not always with the most, you know, a range of companies or companies with a range of sort of like maturity. Maybe talk a little bit about that. um and about the

the core of what Wart and Co. offers and

and who you help.

>> Actually, I think a lot of people are surprised by the breadth of search that we take on and the word leadership in the context of recruiting. You know, our reputation perhaps and maybe rightfully

so over 30 years, that word, the definition of it has bent in people's minds towards executive recruiting or executive roles. But the way we define

executive roles. But the way we define leadership at Word & Company is with a lowercase L. And it's really just a set

lowercase L. And it's really just a set of qualities and characteristics in a person or the scope of a role or a remmit that can include very much so the

IC track. Uh founding designer roles to

IC track. Uh founding designer roles to me those are unambiguously leadership positions. You're seeing more designers

positions. You're seeing more designers step into board seats, become adviserss, coaches, investors. These are all variations of

investors. These are all variations of leadership in our in our view middle management you know throughout. And so

for us, management roles are just a subset of leadership uh in this context.

And we work across the board there. Uh

really any role that has leadership qualities or dynamics, that's where we thrive. And that spans every discipline

thrive. And that spans every discipline of design and creative from industrial design to packaging to brand all the way to marketing to ops and research of

course product design of the software sense and really every industry from tech to CPG to academia to nonprofits to

to us design transcends all of those words. Uh and you know that's the focus

words. Uh and you know that's the focus of our business. Uh so every search we take on is quite different from the next or from the last and you know that keeps

life interesting for us at least.

>> A broad view of across design broad set of of customers coming to you for things like founding designer which was maybe not a thing a decade ago. You know

designers on boards uh more common now than it than it has been in the past.

What are some of the the changes that you've seen over time in terms of the kinds of companies coming to you especially um looking for the kinds of

of roles that you help fill?

>> I guess it depends on what time horizon.

I mean, if we're talking over the last 30 years, obviously more and more companies are either tech companies or becoming tech companies. And so, you've seen that arc, you know, versus decades

ago, you know, maybe it was a upand- cominging fashion brand or a makeup company, right? Versus a Figma, you

company, right? Versus a Figma, you know, of course there's there's that story arc. um we're seeing a deeper

story arc. um we're seeing a deeper investment in design and creative whether that's product design or brand earlier sooner rather than later and I

think I think I can speak on behalf of most recruiting firms that the uh amount of startups for lack of a better word that are reaching out in pursuit of design and design leadership that's

increased dramatically as of late.

That's probably been the biggest trend in the last few years is how soon companies want to hire design and design.

>> I think that would be I think that would be good for people to hear about and think about it because it's one of the dynamics at play here. Um when you know you think about changes in hiring patterns and who is hiring, you know,

the idea that maybe you bring the designer in later and they do some polish on the thing that you already have much earlier. What what does that look like? Um, and what do what kinds of

look like? Um, and what do what kinds of traits are those companies looking for?

>> I don't want to paint with too broad of a brush here. Um,

>> broad brushes only. You got to They all look like this.

>> Maybe honing in on the founding designer role for a second. Um, to me that's similar to the concept of head of design. It's a it's a sentiment more

design. It's a it's a sentiment more than it is a level. I I I know founding designers who are senior principal

managers, directors, seuite VPs. You can

be all of those things and be a founding designer. And so when a company reaches

designer. And so when a company reaches out to us and says, "Hey, we're looking for a founding designer." One of the first things I'm trying to figure out is what kind of founding designer are they referring to?

>> Yeah. you know it it do they have a product manager who's mocked something up and they just want a designer to prototype and implement it or do they have a CEO with an idea and they want to

find a design leader in the form of a founding designer who can take that abstract idea help them translate it into a product and then build a team to

go execute. Not all founding designer

go execute. Not all founding designer roles are created equal. Some are

leadership positions, some are less so.

Uh, and and that spectrum, it's hard to discern from a job description. You kind

of have to get into the weeds with a company or a founder or a hiring manager to to really understand what that vernacular really means to them. But

yeah, we're seeing a huge uh uptick in roles across that spectrum.

>> Yeah.

>> So that's uh for sure something that companies are looking for. Within that

though, although every founding designer role is different and some are more managerial than others, some are more executional than others, some come with

headcount to hire, some are inherently one man or woman army kind of roles. Um

there are some I think universal truths that come with each of those varying job descriptions. Companies are certainly

descriptions. Companies are certainly looking for people who are on a mission uh more so than uh you know that mercenary hire. They want people who

mercenary hire. They want people who really believe in what they're doing. If

they're going to invest in them with equity, they want to feel like that candidate, that new employee, that partner is going to invest and uh and reciprocate. That's a mindset. You kind

reciprocate. That's a mindset. You kind

of have to be at the right moment of your personal life to be willing to do that at such an early stage given the risk and the lifestyle etc. Definitely an emphasis on versatility. I think the

earlier you go, the more versatility is a feature, whereas maybe later stage companies becomes perhaps a bit of a bug. You start to see more

bug. You start to see more specialization at scale. And so if you're a founding designer and you're proficient at UI, UX, you have maybe

some visual chops, you have a little bit of a storytelling and brand muscle. Oh,

by the way, you don't mind, you know, changing the light bulbs and assembling desks and, you know, greeting people at the front door and engaging with clients and having a little bit of a sales

muscle. Like, you can boil that down to

muscle. Like, you can boil that down to the word entrepreneurial uh or operational, but versatile uh is for sure a skill set that people are looking for at that stage. You can only hire so

many people with your first round of funding, and so you want to make sure that everyone can wear as many hats as possible. I I was going to say I think

possible. I I was going to say I think that's like that's the case for everybody at an early stage company where you know you also expect the engineer to go to the sales meetings like you have to you have to sell the

product in order to grow the Yeah. So

you've got versatility as a need. You've

got I heard a little bit of sort of like low ego in there. Uh missiondriven.

Anything else that you're seeing from those companies and then I want to come back to um the like how recent of a trend is this?

>> In terms of generalizations, I'd have to give that some more thought. I mean

there's certainly specifics case by case bullet points on a job description based on the makeup of the team at hand. You

know, if they have a really strong product leader, maybe product sense is a little bit less important in their eyes, right? If the company is more geared

right? If the company is more geared towards research and so far away from go to market, maybe engaging, you know, in the sales flow less important, right?

So, it really does depend. But yeah,

ultimately I think versatility is key and and that's not just about being entrepreneurial. You know, maybe the

entrepreneurial. You know, maybe the more cynical take is that budgets are constrained and you want to make sure you can get the most out of each, you know, single hire. And when it comes to

design as a category, of course, that's an incredibly multi-disiplinary product design, brand, ops, research, your first hire, most companies are hopeful that they can check all those boxes with the

singular person. And you know, usually

singular person. And you know, usually I'm counseling them to think through that a bit more carefully and realize that they should perhaps hire more than one person just like they probably would

on the engineering side. They don't

expect every engineer they hire or their first engineer to be the best at front end or backend or infrastructure or, you know, across the whole stack. That

should be true within design. I'm

starting to see a little bit more of that that nuance and that that appreciation for how multi-disiplinary the design field is and and that you you can have everything but not all at once

or not all in one person. That's still a developing trend. I can't say we've

developing trend. I can't say we've we've crossed the finish line there.

>> We should talk about that because I think to this point we've basically said, hey, there's broad demand for design across a lot of different disciplines. It seems like that demand

disciplines. It seems like that demand is starting earlier in a company's life cycle than maybe it has in the past.

Many different kinds of companies are um uh you know looking at their design teams. But I think what you just

described is the desire for a single hire who can do a a huge range of things like motion design is its own thing. UX

writing, copywriting and copywriting are also often their own things. Um, you

know, design leadership is its own thing often like managing a team. And I think you just described a desire from companies to get all of that stack to

get everybody or every every skill um within uh within a single person. And I

know that's something that you you think a lot about, you're counseling clients about. How does that play into maybe the

about. How does that play into maybe the feeling in the market of like whether there is a lot of hiring happening or how tough it is to find work or how

tough it is to find the right role. Just

talk a little bit about the the tension between those things because I don't know if everybody's experience is that the market is strong. I think that some people's experience is that it is hard

to find the the next role or the right role. I think there's a ton of amazing

role. I think there's a ton of amazing people on the market that are probably struggling to find work because hiring managers are approaching their searches unrealistically. Those hiring managers,

unrealistically. Those hiring managers, instead of trying to find that one quote unquote unicorn who can do these three to five things, if they instead said to themselves, okay, we're going to try to find two people, one who can do these

things and one who can do these things, they'd probably map to the to the candidate pool a bit more easily and thus those candidates would have more opportunities. It's really, it just

opportunities. It's really, it just comes down to misaligned expectations that's probably built upon um a misunderstood discipline. Uh and hiring managers still

discipline. Uh and hiring managers still being educated about what design is and how many different ways there are to be a designer and how many different types

of designers it takes to assemble a team. Think of it more like Voltron.

team. Think of it more like Voltron.

They all point to to Apple and Figma and Airbnb and a few other companies that we hold in high regard when it comes to design. They're like, I want my company

design. They're like, I want my company or product or brand to be like that, but I'm only willing to hire this one person. I empathize with the candidate

person. I empathize with the candidate pool. Uh there are there's a lot of

pool. Uh there are there's a lot of talented people out there who should be getting more opportunities and they would be if that if the company that they were considering had two open

headcount, not one. Well, and one other thing we found in the the way that teams are constructed is uh that there is a blurring of roles happening. 64%

involved in the software process are doing like two or more roles. That's how

they think about it and they're increasing the number of things they're doing. And we we found they were using

doing. And we we found they were using AI tools to basically add skills they didn't already have, which then creates the situation where is the hiring

manager overlooking someone who's really good at something and missing that they could add these other skills with the help of of AI? You know, they could essentially grow their skill set. I I I

don't know what you think about that, but it's it's clearly a dynamic in the market of the blurring of who's doing which jobs and which tasks. Um, and then who's, you know, deeply trained in those

things because there it's not the same, you know, it's just because you can use AI to do something doesn't mean you know all the depth that goes could go into it either. What comes to my mind and

either. What comes to my mind and hearing you talk through that is is simply that most companies don't want to invest in the development of the people they hire and and and they're looking

for plugandplay. They're they're looking

for plugandplay. They're they're looking for all of these things in one. And you

know, yeah, one antidote to that problem would be to hire two and have them divide and conquer. Another would be to hire one, be patient, and then invest in

them. train them, set them up for

them. train them, set them up for success. I I don't think we see a lot of

success. I I don't think we see a lot of that. And I'm empathetic of companies,

that. And I'm empathetic of companies, of course. I've spent most of my career

of course. I've spent most of my career at startups as well. And time is of the essence, and you only have x number of dollars. You have runway. You have an

dollars. You have runway. You have an option pool that you've allocated. You

have a ton of other people in every other department that you have to hire.

It's a hard balancing act. But it seems so obvious to me and maybe I'm incredibly biased uh that design is critical uh to business success and integral to it. I look at other

departments or or disciplines like engineering and there's such an automatic okay let's hire five. They all

have these specialties. Let's form a voltron with these five hires. I don't

understand why more companies don't think that way when it comes to design.

I think they should. If you take that and you couple it with the development of people, much like sport franchises, and I know we're going to talk about sports in a bit based on our past

conversations, but much like some sport franchises who think long-term and are more dynastic in their in their approach, they do have really robust and

rigorous player development programs and farm systems and patience. I think it would behoove more companies to not try to find a silver bullet with each person.

Uh, put it that way.

>> Let's um let's do that. Let's do let's do some sports analogies. Um, and uh uh then there's one other surprising data point I want to get into that I think is

very related here. Um, so you have this belief that it's sort of a little more like Moneyball, right? Or like you know you're building maybe elaborate on what

what is Moneyball? What's this

philosophy? What's this idea of, you know, constructing a superstar team versus a balanced team? Tell me about that.

>> Well, let me first say before everyone who doesn't watch sports rolls their eyes at this chapter of our conversation that Moneyball the movie um worth watching. Think of it as a sports movie.

watching. Think of it as a sports movie.

>> Yeah.

>> Think of it as a team building movie. If

if you're in in a position where you are building a team, it's it's it's required reading or watching uh for what it's worth. And I I get no commission for

worth. And I I get no commission for saying that. I I really think it's a

saying that. I I really think it's a great movie. The concept of Moneyball

great movie. The concept of Moneyball originated in with the Oakland Athletics. Uh eventually made it to the

Athletics. Uh eventually made it to the Boston Red Sox. Now a lot of the Major League Baseball teams implement it. And

the concept is that if you have this really high paid home run hitter and they leave your organization, the answer is not to find a one-forone replacement of them because there probably isn't

one. And if there is, they're probably

one. And if there is, they're probably going to go to the Yankees because they can outspend you. Thing about baseball is there's no salary cap. And that led the Oakland Athletics, Billy Bean in

particular, uh, to think through this concept of moneyball, which was, let's not find one home run hitter. Let's find

three people who can get on base. Really

advanced analytics to figure that out.

And that's the winning recipe. And to

me, that is how most companies should approach things. Now granted, there are

approach things. Now granted, there are some companies who have raised enough money or make enough money where they can operate like the Yankees. They don't

have a salary cap. So if you're one of those companies, forget what I'm saying.

Continue to try to buy the best people.

You have the luxury to do so, but you're in the minority. Most companies are small midcap companies. They have X dollars. They might not have revenue

dollars. They might not have revenue yet. They have to be very pragmatic. Uh,

yet. They have to be very pragmatic. Uh,

and I I think more companies should build teams like some of the best basketball teams do and and not try to pretend like they are the Yankees.

They're thinking in the wrong sport. Uh,

most companies are basketball teams with salary caps. Most companies are not

salary caps. Most companies are not baseball teams uh with unlimited money to spend. And so that uh to me is how

to spend. And so that uh to me is how startup should think through hiring. uh

you're not going to win dollar to ford dollar against the Yankees. You should

stop trying to uh and you should start thinking through another another approach which is >> to find people who can get on base and they might be overlooked and undervalued

in other organizations. Their resumes

not might not be as shiny uh but they can get on base and that's what that's what your startup needs right now. I you

know it's it's interesting because you you everybody sort of operates within constraints. Uh every hiring manager

constraints. Uh every hiring manager thinking about this operates within constraints and what you're describing is the difference a little bit in this is actually that you most people

especially at this moment can add skills. So you're actually saying hey we

skills. So you're actually saying hey we think this person can get on base now and we think they could develop into a home run hitter later or there's a chance that they could. Um, and the interesting thing about the new

capabilities that exist now, the new tools are that a lot of people probably now could develop the capability to become a home run hitter or were already

capable of it and they were missing a bat or something like the bat the bats they were using were not correct or their stance was a little off or something. And so I think the other

something. And so I think the other interesting thing about what you're describing is that theoretically some of those people could be breakout stars that you could go looking for and

instead of trying to find the perfect fit at this moment, you are potentially looking for a strong fit that could become perfect later or maybe a couple

people who are like that. Is that is that a fair way of thinking about it?

>> Totally. And you know, for what it's worth, everything I just shared is predicated on there being someone at that company focused on, to indulge the analogy, player development.

>> Sure.

>> And so, yeah, one of the things we've seen in the last few years is the flattening of organizations and kind of an erosion of middle management and people management and the the skills

inherent to that perhaps being less important. that makes it hard to

important. that makes it hard to approach things in the way uh that some sports teams do. But Allah, Moneyball, like if if you're going to find people

who are underdeveloped but high potential, more affordable, overlooked, and you bring them in, okay, the next step is to develop them and set them up

for success. And if you don't have

for success. And if you don't have someone who's excellent at people management, bringing the best out of people nurturing mentoring coaching

being their professional therapist, so to speak, showing them the way, yeah, they're not going to fulfill their potential. That moneyball concept, it's

potential. That moneyball concept, it's linked to having great people managers.

I think that's one of the things we saw shift perhaps back in the right direction. I don't know if it'll it's a

direction. I don't know if it'll it's a full pendulum swing or if there was an overcorrection that we've seen maybe just a slight recorrection from, but 2024 every org was flattened. If you were a

middle manager in the market, that was a tough place to be. 2025, a lot of the inquiries we've been seeing have been at that manager to senior director level.

Uh which has been to me, um I don't know if refreshing is the right word. Um but

encouraging for sure. uh because I I think those [clears throat] roles are incredibly important and I know you know many of the managers who were were not laid off. I just know how burnt out

laid off. I just know how burnt out they've all been because their spans of control were were extended dramatically.

They were underresourced like org designs they changed shape dramatically in the last few years and you had someone at the top a couple people in the middle a lot of senior IC's and

really that's a recipe for really not being able to develop more junior people not being able to take a more patient or more pragmatic moneyball approach and so

and so yeah you need those people managers in the mix to to take to take this kind of approach in hiring >> so that gets at the other like I think we just talked about sort of the

misalignment in the in the market of uh you know where the of the demand versus the the candidate pool the other thing that we saw in our data that you're touching on here is the demand for

senior IC's seems absolutely off the charts very high um and we saw a lot less demand for juniors and for um new

entrance into the market for early career folks and in fact you know it's it's something like 40% % of the respondents to our survey said they had

reduced their hiring of um junior designers of early career folks. Um and

that was true even among like the fastest growing companies. What do you make of that and what do you what do you think is going to happen with with that

to those companies? I can't I don't want to speak on behalf of all companies obviously, but I think it it it's largely to do with what I just said, which is that there's not enough managers to mentor and companies feel

like they're in an arms race right now or there's so much existential pressure, whether it's AI or funding or the stock market that they don't want to take the

time to invest in in the long term, they have to win a championship right now to come back to sports. Uh, and so it's kind of short-term thinking and that puts people in a position to think for

better or worse and perhaps in a short-sighted way that if we're going to hire an individual contributor right now, they can't need any training

whatsoever. I need them to to have an

whatsoever. I need them to to have an impact yesterday. Uh, and some companies

impact yesterday. Uh, and some companies are under a lot of pressure and maybe have the money to hire only those kinds

of individuals. And maybe think maybe

of individuals. And maybe think maybe things will work out fine. Uh but my maybe pessimistic view is that at some

point all of those very senior IC's will make enough money to not want to work, retire, move on and then those companies will be left with a gap in their or in

their org chart when it comes to seniority and maturity and development that will be hard to rectify. Uh it's

And I apologize for the sports analogies, but it's kind of like a basketball team building out their roster in a very topheavy way. High

contract, noteworthy people, names that you recognize. You go for a championship

you recognize. You go for a championship that year. Let's say you lose that

that year. Let's say you lose that championship. Those people retire, move

championship. Those people retire, move on. You're left with no draft picks. The

on. You're left with no draft picks. The

end of the bench is is thin. And you

know, you're going to enter a pretty dark chapter until perhaps you rebuild.

And that's especially true in basketball because there's a salary cap. It's less

true in baseball because there isn't one.

>> But like we talked about, the reality is is that companies do operate a bit more like basketball teams because finances are constrained. I I think it's a bit

are constrained. I I think it's a bit shortsighted to only hire really senior IC's.

I get why companies do it. It might make sense in the short term, but I think it's a it's a slippery slope and a bit of a dangerous game to play. The other

reason I think companies do it, or rather the other reason why I think hiring managers do it, is because they're only thinking about their tenure, it's hard for a lot of hiring

managers to think, will this person be set up for success and if they stay at this company for six years, but I'm only here for two more. Do I really want to

invest in this person if the fruit of that labor will only bloom after my time here? Or do I really want to invest in

here? Or do I really want to invest in this person if in two years you're going to move on and some other company's going to get the ROI, so to speak, from

all the effort and time I put in. Uh,

and so I think that's also maybe even subconscious, maybe human nature.

there's a selfishness there uh that a lot of hiring managers aren't thinking about the company beyond themselves uh and nor the person beyond them. I would

encourage more hiring managers to hire more people managers and mentors in the organization and hire more junior talent. The best teams, the best

talent. The best teams, the best organizations have a lot of diversity.

Not just in terms of ethnic diversity or gender diversity, sociological backgrounds or socioeconomic backgrounds, but in terms of years of experience and where people are at in

their career. You want to have a nice

their career. You want to have a nice cross-section of junior, mid, senior so that as things, you know, turn over and there's changing, you know, there's a changing of the guard every so often,

you're moving people along uh steadily time and time again. How few internship programs there are these days, it just boggles my mind. Like I said, I think it

it seems shortsighted. Remains to be seen how it all plays out. I might be cynical or pessimistic about it, but it's not hard for me to envision in five to 10 years a lot of companies having

big gaps in their organizations in terms of talent and no draft picks, so to speak.

>> In AI years though, that's like that's eons. And I yeah I think the thing

eons. And I yeah I think the thing that's interesting here is if if there's so many new tools and techniques and approaches being developed. It seems

like you really need a broad type of group with a broad set of experiences to unearth those things to share them to find them especially if there's a lot of

new ways of working. When I saw that stat, I really thought it was missing even the two-year time horizon, you know, like I think it it's missing

the opportunity if you're like a hiring manager to find some totally new way of approaching a problem or running your

entire system. Um because you don't have

entire system. Um because you don't have somebody coming in um who is bringing that, you know, they just they haven't done it another way. you know, they they

potentially their entire time in college was with Chat GPT. Positive or negative, that's definitely a different experience than the one I had in college. Um,

>> yeah.

>> So, that that just I don't know, that one stuck out at me that I love your point of like they're not thinking beyond themselves, but I I actually think that might be even shortsighted among for themselves um to to leave out

that group of people.

>> Who would have thought uh that fresh blood would have fresh thoughts? I mean,

it's it seems obvious.

>> I mean, I've also seen people with 30 years of experience, 20 have fresh thoughts, too. But it's like when you

thoughts, too. But it's like when you get them in context or in in like sort of conflict is the wrong word, but you bump them up against someone with zero years of experience, you're going to get something different than if you bump

them up against someone else with 20, 30 years of experience. So, just creating more of that seems important. Um, I love that point though about like think beyond your immediate need. the pressure

is so existential and design is so important that you think this is the thing I need to solve this now in exactly the right way.

>> If companies have diversity goals, it should include years of experience.

>> We talked a lot about the dynamics. We

talked about um some of what's going on.

Um what's what's your advice for people in these positions today? like

especially if they have decades of experience and they're looking if they're brand new to the market like what do you think candidates should be doing at this moment what skills do you think they should be working on what

what do you got Daniel >> well what skills they should be working on I mean beyond maybe the lowhanging fruit of AI literacy uh will depend on what their aspirations

are so again I don't want to paint with too broad of a brush but what candidates should be doing and I'll try to frame this question and what I see candidates not doing enough of is being vulnerable

and and getting getting themselves out there. And and what I mean by that is

there. And and what I mean by that is there's a few few ways to be vulnerable.

One is to build in public and share your work. Take the password off of your

work. Take the password off of your portfolio website. Be open to critique.

portfolio website. Be open to critique.

Just push forward. Iterate. But if you do so in the shadows, no one's going to notice you obviously. And I I think a lot of people, and this isn't just of

within the design community, a lot of people are shy, scared, nervous. Job

searching is a very vulnerable practice.

Uh if you do it right, you're going to be applying or pursuing really competitive great opportunities. You're

not going to get all of them.

>> Yeah.

>> And this will be my last sports analogy of our of of our >> You could do another one. I'm sure you can come up with another one, Daniel.

All right. What's What's this one?

>> I could probably come up with a few more. They say, you know, that if you

more. They say, you know, that if you bat 300 in baseball, you're in the Hall of Fame.

>> Yeah.

>> When it comes to job searching, ultimately, you only need one. You know,

get yourself out there and be okay with rejection and be okay with feedback and forget the the mob on on Twitter or X or or on LinkedIn. Just like put yourself

out there. You're going to get noticed.

out there. You're going to get noticed.

And maybe that doesn't bear fruit this time around, but if you keep doing it, that's going to create a virtuous cycle that will yield results eventually. And

and the other way to get vulnerable is by networking. As Judy Wart, my mother,

by networking. As Judy Wart, my mother, my business partner, has has always said should not be episodic. And I think a lot of people, they get into a great job, they get heads down, they don't

update their materials, they don't update their LinkedIn, they don't talk to anyone outside their organization. To

me, a great job search starts with a network that you've already cultivated.

Again, if you if if you've been a bit quiet on the networking front and you start now, that might not bear fruit if you need a job in two months. But if you start now and don't stop, then next time

you do a job search, I can almost guarantee it will. And I I think the best way to network certainly you can do it through friends, you can call me, you

know, you can get get referred, you can talk to recruiters, no doubt, but the art of the cold email I think is lost.

And I encourage a lot of my candidates, our candidates here in company, uh to be vulnerable in that way. Forget what

companies you want to work at, forget what products you love, forget what categories are are of interest. I ask

the question often, whose job do you want? Think about the people, not the

want? Think about the people, not the companies, but the people that you admire that you want to work with. Who

do they report to? Who do they sit to the left and right of at work? If you do that, you're going to create probably a list of a 100 people out in the industry. The people whose job you want,

industry. The people whose job you want, the people they work to work with, the people they report to. Figure out their email addresses. There's so many tools

email addresses. There's so many tools to do that. and write emails. You don't

need to do it in the context of a something they're hiring for. Just say,

"I love what you're doing. Coffee, Zoom,

Google Meet, what have you." Just put yourself out there. And again, only 10% of them might get back to you.

>> But guess what? That's way more than zero.

>> Yeah. [laughter]

>> And if you keep doing that, again, one day it's going to bear fruit. that

person you reached out to, even if they read your email and didn't respond, six months from now when they open up a wreck and they're thinking about their immediate network, you might be one of those names or profiles or portfolios

that comes to their mind first before the job even hits the career page. And

that's the position you want to be in. A

lot of the best jobs get filled before the posting ends up on a career page.

And that's through first-degree connections, the folks brave enough to cold email constantly, resiliently throughout their careers. Uh they've

built this network. It may not bear fruit, but one day it will. And you just have to be relentless about that. And

so, yeah, my number one piece of advice to candidates is just to let your guard down and be okay with a cold email that doesn't get responded to or an

application that doesn't get read or put your work out there, get feedback.

I wouldn't turn to LinkedIn and vent and be negative. That's not the kind of uh

be negative. That's not the kind of uh vulnerability I'm referring to. But in a very constructive, positive with a with an eye towards the future

kind of way, like you just kind of have to let your guard down uh and do so at all times of your career and just trust that that's a virtuous cycle that's

going to uh come back and reward you one day.

>> What's your stance on, you know, you said AI literacy at first. What's your

stance on being making yourself more AI literate in public and sharing the things that you're finding, you're discovering, the projects you're working on? Like it seems like that's a natural

on? Like it seems like that's a natural thing. If that's the biggest thing

thing. If that's the biggest thing people want to see, prove that you have it publicly. And then also that, you

it publicly. And then also that, you know, essentially puts yourself out there. Do like positive, negative,

there. Do like positive, negative, helpful, not helpful?

>> No, totally helpful. I mean, it's no secret that AI, those letters are in vogue right now and and rightfully so.

It's it's changing the world as we speak and it's moving very fast and there's just a ton of tools that make it very easy to build things that people can see. Uh, and so there's a lot of

see. Uh, and so there's a lot of different approaches you could take in that regard. Whether that's written

that regard. Whether that's written thought pieces or, you know, recording a video of you vibe coding this app, like, you know, there's there's so many different avenues you could take based

based on your role. Yeah.

>> Whether you're a content designer or a writer or brand designer or a product designer, you can approach this technology differently. But if you

technology differently. But if you leverage it, you can let the world know that either visually, orally, via writing etc.

>> Um, so yeah, I I I wouldn't say AI is the only uh vehicle for uh being vulnerable or getting out there. Um, but

no secret that it's on everyone's mind right now. Certainly a skill set that

right now. Certainly a skill set that companies are are valuing. I don't think a lot of companies have figured out how to vet for it. Uh, but I know a lot of companies value it.

>> I've heard a lot about side projects, people like being intrigued by AI use in side projects. Like it's almost like the

side projects. Like it's almost like the indication that you have the drive to go do the thing and then share that publicly because like you said, they're trying to figure out even what they should be doing. Um, in most

organizations are still trying to sort it out. So you're this person who is

it out. So you're this person who is like curious and pushing it forward. all

of a sudden that's a really different kind of conversation than like a just a standard portfolio discussion.

>> I mean, building in public aside, if you have a portfolio and you're asked to present to a company and your case studies, if if if you've only worked at companies that have not leveraged AI,

you're not going to have a case study that demonstrates what this AI oriented company that you're interviewing for is looking for. So, what do you do? Build a

looking for. So, what do you do? Build a

case study off of some app you created at night. Same framework. What was the

at night. Same framework. What was the brief?

What were your challenges? What was your team? Maybe your teammate was an agent.

team? Maybe your teammate was an agent.

>> Yeah.

>> What was the impacts? What were the iterations? Why did you do this and

iterations? Why did you do this and that? Like, you can approach a personal

that? Like, you can approach a personal project case study the same way you would a case study that's rooted in past employment. And if the companies you've

employment. And if the companies you've worked at didn't afford you a chance to leverage AI or push to production, yeah, lean on after hours. Lean on these tools.

build a few little things for fun and and build a case study about that experience. Putting aside doing that

experience. Putting aside doing that publicly, like just in terms of your portfolio that you might be asked to present to a company, like if you're thinking about the different Lego pieces in your in the component library of of

your work in pursuit of having case studies and a portfolio to one day present, that should be one of those LEGO pieces for sure. We've seen a few a

few of those portfolios this year and that that's a that's for sure a first uh a case study about some little app they got into test flight.

>> Yeah. Okay. So um some advice for people um within a navigating like a little bit of a difficult environment um and I know also like hiring managers are are

inundated with potential candidates.

it's been it's easier than ever to sort of like apply to things. That's probably

not exactly in in your you know in your world that's not quite the same because you're running these sort of curated searches, but it's something I've heard from hiring managers that there's they're just sort of flooded with things that maybe are not the right fit for

that job.

>> What are you really like excited about with design today? leaving aside the turbulent job market and leaving aside, you know, it'd be great to have more uh

mentorship and leadership, like what's what's getting you you excited about um the design field?

>> I think the the bell curve in terms of quality, craft, visual delight, functionality, intuitiveness in terms of products, product design, that's going

to shrink quite a bit. Uh, I think there's going to be so many amazing products out there and not all of them are going to be built by corporations or companies. Many of them will be built by

companies. Many of them will be built by people and I could imagine uh that manifesting into an Apple app store like experience where you can just play with

products that other people have built.

Uh, I think Wabby is a a startup and a perfect example of that. I think they're on to something that's exciting. In

terms of products, things flatten a bit.

What will set companies apart if every product is equally awesome?

The answer is probably brand storytelling.

>> They can't be equally awesome though, Daniel. Like that's the the essence of

Daniel. Like that's the the essence of differentiation is that there will be some new higher bar. Like I I have to imagine. But short of that breakthrough

imagine. But short of that breakthrough in terms of product design, the the thing that will set I think a lot of products and businesses apart is the story that they tell and the brand that they build and the emotions that they

elicit. And

elicit. And >> one thing I'm really excited about is how many inquiries we received last year and already in the new year for brand

creative again hearkening back to 2024.

It felt like every opportunity out there was product design. brand was being outsourced to agency. Research was

being, you know, depleted. If you're a product designer, you should do your own research. Operations went through a very

research. Operations went through a very similar storyline. Uh and so, yeah, if

similar storyline. Uh and so, yeah, if we're talking about a world where every product is equally awesome just just for the moment, the I think the thing that will set a lot of these companies apart

is how much they invest in brand and storytelling. And to me, that's

storytelling. And to me, that's exciting. The other exciting thing maybe

exciting. The other exciting thing maybe because it's maybe this is because I love doing these kinds of searches is is that there's going to be a resurgence in

industrial design related projects and products uh you know whether that's you know micro mobility uh or you know

autonomous vehicles or robotics um we're seeing more industrial design uh these days and I think that's good I say that with some bias because I just love

industrial design searches. Um, but I I am excited about that.

>> I mean, I asked you what you were excited about. I didn't ask you about a

excited about. I didn't ask you about a prediction about what will happen. Um,

uh, and and the idea, I mean, it is fascinating to think about the idea of more like entities, you know, in the physical world and like robotics. You know, the robot vacuum is

robotics. You know, the robot vacuum is old news at this point, but what about all the other things that that could be created, move around autonomously or semi-autonomously?

And then what about all the agents that could move around in the digital world?

Like there's a lot of interesting things that that then creates >> that are new interactions to be designed, I think, and new things to think through. I

think through. I >> mean, robo vacuums are old news, but I just saw one that climbs upstairs that that's fairly new.

>> That's new. And you know that's a symptom of a lot of investment in research and development in robotics.

And you know it's one thing for it to work. It's another thing for it to look

work. It's another thing for it to look like an a beautiful >> accessory or or object on my shelf or in my kitchen. Industrial design is going

my kitchen. Industrial design is going to have I think um an awesome decade ahead or I should say I hope.

>> I love that. I love that that energy, those thoughts. Um I think great points

those thoughts. Um I think great points about you know design's ability to make things more not just like usable in the software

world but also beautiful and you know then effective in the the physical world and then you didn't even mention all the industrial applications um that are are

possible there too um which also require a great deal of design thought. On that

note, one thing I'd be remiss if I if I didn't say, um, even though of course we all love beautiful objects and how things look. I think you'd both you and

things look. I think you'd both you and I would both agree that design is equally about, if not more about how things work. Uh, which goes back to that

things work. Uh, which goes back to that founding designer part of our conversation. I'd encourage more

conversation. I'd encourage more companies to invest in design sooner rather than later. not because they want their brands to look good or their products to look good, but because they want their products to work in the way

that their users want them to. Uh, and

that is at at the root of design. Uh,

and I think something that is still overlooked more than it should be. I'd

like to say that there's a positive trend in that regard, but we'll see if the hiring plans certainly of early stage startups recognize that or reflect that moving forward. Yeah, I mean you

can be excited about it. Again, not

predictions. I just asked what you were excited about. Um Daniel, amazing to

excited about. Um Daniel, amazing to have you on, get your perspective, hear like the broad range of conversations that you're having, some of the conclusions, um and some of the advice.

Like I just think that'll be really helpful for people. So, thanks for joining.

>> You're very welcome. Looking forward to the next one.

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