Unlocking AI Marketing Potential with Katie McPhee - The Future Trends & Insights In AI & Marketing

Welcome back everyone. Today I've got my friend Katie with us. Most of you will probably aware of who Katie is and what she does, but [music] uh a really quick

intro to Katie. It's Katie McI. She's

been a marketing leader. [music]

She is an AI whiz, as some people might call it, and I'm really looking forward to to uncovering and unlocking loads of uh Katie's knowledge to help you on your

journey in 2026. So, welcome Katie.

Thanks Danny.

>> Katie, do you want to let people know where we really are with marketing at startups and like what would you say the current state of play is for for marketing and startups?

>> Yeah, I mean I think it's definitely an interesting point in time like you only have to look at the number of AI companies that have boomed into existence in the past couple of years. I

think there's over 100,000. And so this really changes what it means to be a marketeer in a startup because in the 2010s when I first uh

moved into startups myself when I was working with Eventbrite, your main challenge was to to get a few people to know about you to break in and to

communicate about the technology. But

where that's changed now is that a different layer of differentiation is needed. Like we all know what AI is, but

needed. Like we all know what AI is, but what is it that the value that your specific company and product brings is going to be like the communication

challenge for marketeers in startups going forwards.

>> We both have worked in and around the you you're in the AI space. You know,

I've worked in and around companies going into and starting their journey in AI. And a quick observation I've heard

AI. And a quick observation I've heard is there's so much paid search for AI companies there. I've never seen it in

companies there. I've never seen it in start startups like it. As soon as you search for one tool, every competitor comes up. So, it's definitely one of the

comes up. So, it's definitely one of the most aggressive spaces I've seen. Is

there something that you're um that you've observed within the startup space within marketing that that's something that's new or something that sort of sprung up that you you weren't really expecting

>> in terms of channels or >> Yeah. channels or just general approach

>> Yeah. channels or just general approach cuz AI and and marketing is uh is is new, right? It's only really a couple of

new, right? It's only really a couple of years old. Is there anything that sort

years old. Is there anything that sort of surprised you since your 2010 like era of marketing? Well, I think it's encouraging to see the resurgence of

community and the resurgence of connection and IRL. There's a lot of noise about Reddit as a channel of

importance because that's what the LLMs are scraping to get their intel and so there's kind of this dash to like create a Reddit strategy, but actually you

can't really fake it on Reddit. You

actually have to be providing genuine community value. So I think that's it's

community value. So I think that's it's interesting to see how that's playing out online and how that will continue to

do so. Um I think secondly

do so. Um I think secondly at the high end with enterprise like this again this return like this

postco like return to field marketing like all the roles that are emerging for events teams but actually bringing people together which again it forces

you to create high quality events high quality connecting opportunities you know I've got to think that that all is in the benefit actually of the end user

It changes the challenge for marketeteers, but actually it feels like a shift back to a slightly more authentic way of connecting instead of just let's spend

six figures on paid search and spray and prey and hope for the best. Um, I mean, obviously our feeds are still going to be full of AI slop, if you will, and

like curated avatars just because it is so cheap to test and I think so many people are just going to think, why not?

But alongside that, yeah, the proliferation of much higher quality connecting community opportunities definitely gives me hope that there's that the times for marketeteers on the

horizon.

>> You've done a lot of uh speaking and a lot of engagements recently and obviously that connects in with the the events and like curating the best experiences for people. Have you found

it that it's shifted much or have you found that people are asking much more pertinent questions because the industry is is getting harder or it's it is peripherating and changing? Have you

sort of experienced anything like that?

I mean I I'm getting asked a lot about AI like what AI tools I use. I mean

someone asked me the other week that how I learned AI um which was like an interesting one. So I guess there is

interesting one. So I guess there is that that desire that everyone has right now. People I think are hungry to attend

now. People I think are hungry to attend events specifically around AI because there is this like need and this pressure like we all know that we need

to be doing the most essentially to be uh ahead of ahead of it and and not um get caught behind the wave if you will.

So I think that that is maybe like triggering like a a bigger interest in attending an event. I hosted a marketing hackathon a read a couple of weeks ago

and again like the the demand the reception um and actually the feedback for that event was just so good cuz yeah people like and all all kind of levels

of marketeteer actually that were in that room. people just seem really

that room. people just seem really hungry to roll up their sleeves to learn and to get involved. And I I do think that AI is is forcing again like forcing

us back in a room, forcing us back into like a space where we can be productive, be intentional with other people about our learning. So yeah, if that answers

our learning. So yeah, if that answers your question, like I think that's that's definitely something that I'm I'm seeing when it comes to people owning their own um learning with AI. I think

it's something that like you said we lost a little while for a little while and actually people do want to move forward and they do want to learn and they they don't want to be so reliant on

their cross functional colleagues because I think before a lot of marketeteers kind of felt a little bit stuck they they kind of defaulted a little bit to the performance side because it was so hard to get something

in the work you know in the the project sprints or it was really difficult to get this cross functional approach and moving forward with it. So, it's

definitely something I think a lot of marketeteers will thrive in because they have a much more potential to own things and and deliver on it. So, yeah, it's definitely something that I uh I think

you've you've hit the nail on the head there. I wanted to dive in a little bit

there. I wanted to dive in a little bit to something that we've spoken around before and and we've noticed is sort of a shift towards this super IC model. So

I call it more of an expert role, but I wanted to just to dive in and see is it something that you've experienced and is it something that you think will continue to grow as in senior people

going in to to deliver great work as opposed to having to go in and manage large teams. >> Yeah, I I think 100%

um like two thoughts. where I've been most recently at VE there was a number of senior people who had previously led

quite big teams but within that within that org were actually more leading functions like able to create impact and actually more impact because of not

necessarily having the accountability that you have like when you're running a team like yes you're going to have like dotted lines but actually when you step

step away from everything else that that managing people brings. I was seeing a lot of senior people have a lot of impact dayto-day and and there's a lot of talk as as you and I both talked

about before about the the agentic promise uh where you know there's a future where we're all going to be running teams of agents. I think this is

an interesting one. The text clearly not quite there yet and it's definitely going to require a different level of leadership. It's not going to be

of leadership. It's not going to be directly like people leadership. But I

think if that promise does end up delivering, then we're only going to see more super IC's because individuals are going to be able to do more with less.

Um I guess it just comes down to whether you know how attractive that is as individuals. But and I know a lot of

individuals. But and I know a lot of leaders who get to a certain point and then are like, I actually just want to do the work. I want to roll up my sleeves. I want to get back to what I'm

sleeves. I want to get back to what I'm really good at. I'd say I' I've been there myself as well and sort of redefining, working through and

specializing in product marketing. For

me, it it has incorporated that super IC um stage of the journey. And I have to say it's been like super energizing. And

I think for anyone who maybe gets to a certain point and then it's like oh actually but let's like revisit like what is it that I love about my work?

What is it that I love about marketing?

I would really recommend considering that um as a possibility and yeah I mean I think in the age of smaller teams whether that's because they're AI

enabled or because the economy continues to be a bit crap like it's being willing to put that hat on I think becomes a super skill.

It's definitely it's definitely becoming something that I think so many senior people they get to a point and they have to review what they have done and where they're going. And actually, like you

they're going. And actually, like you said, there are so many people that I've spoken to either in advisory role or coaching that want to move back into or feel like they should move back into more of a a super IC because

[clears throat] they they love the delivery side. They love the impact side

delivery side. They love the impact side of it. superstars like you and other

of it. superstars like you and other people who who really understand how to make positive impact is are going to make companies because at the moment

there's so many teams that really struggle to to actually make any real positive change and bringing in those experienced super or experts are going

to be critically important especially when the teams do get smaller and you will be managing agents or or agentic bots. So I think that's something that

bots. So I think that's something that we're definitely going to sort of moving in towards. Should we should we dive

in towards. Should we should we dive into a question I think a lot of people are skirting around but might help people. Do you actually think that AI is

people. Do you actually think that AI is actually adding any [clears throat] value in to marketing teams at the moment?

>> Yeah, I mean yeah 100%. Like you know I'm an AI evangelist. Um obviously

uh so yes definitely but it's happening in a very lumpy way like it's not happening with any kind of consistency at least from what I've

seen. My experience has been that you're

seen. My experience has been that you're going to have like people like myself and you know I can think of like other other members of the team um where where

I've been or the teams where I've been most recently that really were quite far along the adoption curve like whether it's like trying new tools and then

bringing new ideas but actually like doing quite a lot of it in one spare time and doing a lot of this testing and then you've got other team members

members who are just like not, you know, not not really doing very much. Like

whether it's because they're not experimental or because like there hasn't necessarily been the structures in place to set out like the

expectations at a team level or yeah because they just simply like don't know. they haven't experimented and and

know. they haven't experimented and and they just don't have that understanding that do risk being

yeah if if not left behind then I think perceived to not be as quick as other people who have like created custom

projects within I Gemini was what I was using most recently and within different projects I would have like different templates so that if I typed in like

marketing brief for example, it would fill out like all of the fields for a brief, you know, for product launch for example. And I mean that just saved me

example. And I mean that just saved me hours and hours on a weekly basis. I

think like who are the who are the evangelists on your team? What is it that they're doing to speed up their work and because it can really like make a huge amount of time?

But I think I've maybe digressed slightly from like the original um question that you asked which is where is it making a difference? But yeah, I think for small teams the ability to

speed up particularly if they're evangelist but I think what needs to happen is like where small teams can get

from idea to draft like now within seconds every single person on the team needs to be empowered to do that. every

specialist is going to be using specific software whether it's like a CRM um a Figma is another one like whatever

um platforms people are using like for content delivery and planning but I think embedding that curiosity so that everyone is actually starting to experiment with the AI functions within

those workflows is going to be what really gets people to speed up because you know yes I could say that the ways that marketing teams are using AI like

broadly falls under like content production, research and personalization and everything else, but actually I think that's talking in very generalistic terms. Whereas from a

capability standpoint, I think really what leaders need to do now is just be super supportive and incentivize that that experimentation, which is I think

really what the most successful teams are doing at leveling up. Yeah, I've

I've seen similar a lot of the time it's productivity gains as in some people are making like leaps and bounds by using really specific tools. Others are diving

into automations and workflows and and and trying to make huge progress in just by taking out a lot of the grunt work. I

haven't told you this before, but uh having spoken at a couple of different conferences recently and a couple of different workshops, the one picture where the one slide that everyone takes

a picture of most is one of your LinkedIn updates of uh how to save all the time with different tools, uh your LinkedIn post. And

LinkedIn post. And >> nice uh one of uh the question I always get is what are the best tools for for marketeteers to use? Do you want to dive into your text app? cuz I think that's

something that did well on LinkedIn has done well in different sort of scenarios for me sharing your tech stack. So, have

you got a number of tools that you that like your go-to and that can help people sort of advance themselves in AI and AR and marketing?

>> Yeah. So, I I would um and thank you for saying that by the way. Um always happy to yeah, happy to help and I'm glad that that was useful.

I think one of the greatest workflows that's helped me out a ton over the past

year is like the granola and LLM um stack. So

stack. So whenever I'm in a meeting or on a call, I instead of just frantically like touch typing

to download what was happening, I felt like I was just able to have much more tuned in conversations when I was using Granola to record the call, to record

the transcripts, and then like using that, copying it into whichever of like my projects on Gemini. let's go with

that. So I had like a specific project

that. So I had like a specific project for a lot of my um you know PMM meetings for example. Then I'd go in and I ask

for example. Then I'd go in and I ask the questions and and maybe that would even be the basis for like the next steps to brief. So yeah, so my first one would be like the granola and Gemini

stack.

Second one I've been really loving uh well originally like Manis AI for slide creation. So Manis is kind of an agentic

creation. So Manis is kind of an agentic tool. I I was finding for competitive

tool. I I was finding for competitive intelligence. It was it was

intelligence. It was it was outperforming some of the other tools that I was using. I would now say that perplexity and grock have sort of replaced that for me. But what I really

rated about Manis is that it would go off like do the research produce definitely 70% accurate. like some of the specific social intelligence that I was looking at wasn't always spot on,

but it was nearly there. But then you could just say like transform this into a Google slides. Um, give it the style templates and then you've basically got

competitor intelligence deck within minutes. So that yeah, that was one that

minutes. So that yeah, that was one that really helped as well. And it's got some of the functionality which I'm going to be exploring a bit more as well. And

then yeah, I mean I think Notebook LLM definitely want to uh add that one in for anyone that's not used Notebook LM you can put specialist knowledge. So

whether it's like transcripts from certain calls or like you can add links to YouTube videos which you can't actually do on um chat GPT or claude

projects and you can essentially create like a mastermind on specific topics that you can inquire and just have as like a very specific strategic

companion. So one example here is that

companion. So one example here is that uh I recently did like an on boarding analysis at for V and that was a competitive analysis for uh other

platforms in the space. But as well as just putting the deck into the notebook um I also added a couple of like podcast and like resources but on this very

specific topic that we were thinking about with time to value. Then what it then allows you to do is really like interrogate the strategy, think about it

with regards to your own strategy in a way that you can't actually do with um just straight up LLMs because if you say

if there's like an expert like say April Dumper, let's give it as an example, like the data never comes back specifically. Whereas if you add in

specifically. Whereas if you add in specific YouTube videos like specific resources to to notebook, you know, it really is um hyper accurate. So yeah,

there there are a few, but I mean I think for anyone doing competitive analysis right now, I think the update that I would make to that thing the LinkedIn post that you

referred to it is to really keep experimenting and grow like I'm just seeing like the results are just actually crazily um

specific. There's a competitive Intel

specific. There's a competitive Intel prompt that I run quite regularly about like different AI um video formats for

example and actually running that through Grock I get completely different data back than uh than running it through perplexity or or definitely like

chat GBT. So yeah, so they're they're

chat GBT. So yeah, so they're they're just a few. Yeah, I love Notebook. LM is

like having doing the AI moment podcast, I must talk about it in every every other episode and how it keeps updating.

So, like highly highly recommend it.

Grock by X is the one tool that so many people don't like me referring to, but if you want to uh create something really quickly or you want something that's in the moment to be explained and

then because of all the history and the the insights it's got, it's such a valuable tool. I always say to people,

valuable tool. I always say to people, especially with Grock, is just make sure that the output that it puts, just make sure you you act as the human in the loop, the editor, just to make sure that

it hasn't pulled through something that maybe you wouldn't want to include in a work or corporate setting. Um, but yeah, they're brilliant. They're brilliant

they're brilliant. They're brilliant tools and completely agree. Perplexity

almost replaced Google for me like really early on and it I've not seen a tool that has thought about the customer use case as much. I completely agree >> with

>> yeah I mean honorable mention honorable mention for Gemini because I mean I think since the canvas update where you

can now create slides within that workflow. I mean I think I must have

workflow. I mean I think I must have produced like six decks over the past few weeks and actually the capability and the time saved now is just

absolutely epic. So yeah, I it's almost

absolutely epic. So yeah, I it's almost like the one that doesn't need to be um doesn't need to be said because it feels so obvious. But then I remember that

so obvious. But then I remember that actually not everyone is like headed it all day every day um as I am but the capabilities of Gemini now like in fact

something that I posted this morning was just that a video I created within the workflow within like 30 seconds and although like you have you know limits obviously

uh yeah within within the workflow it's still like the speed and also the convenience is just crazy. the ability

to create slides and I'm curious to try out the new agents piece as well. Um,

but the fact that it just has it all within where your documents are, um, I think means that that's probably the one like if anyone watching or listening is going to master one, it's probably if

you got to know and master absolutely everything within your Google suite, you're probably going to be heads and shoulders uh, better at AI than anyone

else on your team. 100%. And with Gemini sitting in the places where you work, it just makes so much sense. And just on the sides point, Gamma took a huge leap

ahead for such a long time. Gemini is

definitely catching up. Uh so slowly but surely.

>> Yeah. And I love Gamma. Like I think that I loved that uh Lenny's podcast with Grant the founder and just his

whole like worldview about time to value and about getting to that magic moment.

I haven't really heard many other product leaders just talk with that level of precision I guess and like

focus about how they develop their product. But when you use gamma, you can

product. But when you use gamma, you can really see that that's what they did.

Like that's the approach because you do get to that magic moment super quick.

It's delightful. The output is like really aesthetically great. I've been a user. I think I've turned as a paid user

user. I think I've turned as a paid user now, but uh yeah, simply because like it's in my, you know, the Google uh capability is is in my workflow

and it's all good enough. But yeah, I mean it's definitely like an incredible tool, an incredible example uh as well of actually a really useful um generative AI tool particularly for

soloreneurs and founders.

>> I highly recommend that podcast if if anyone wants to understand uh time to value and I'd probably say now they're like the leading light to actually time to value and then editing for yourself

because they know that it needs some tweaks. So, it's definitely one of those

tweaks. So, it's definitely one of those areas I think whether you're a brand person or a PMM or or someone in social, I think it's definitely it highlights so much in and around AI and AI and

marketing. You're you're a founder.

marketing. You're you're a founder.

You've got expanded future. A lot of what you do is in and around adding a lot of value and and giving people excellent advice and and giving them a

guide for the future. Has your marketing background helped you with that as well?

or is it something that has driven your success in that that field?

>> Um, yeah. So, as you say, expanded future is yeah, kind of my side hustle, but essentially supporting marketeers on their own journeys with AI learning and

building with AI specifically. And yeah,

marketing has definitely been an awesome foundation. And I think I'm very

foundation. And I think I'm very unafraid to build something, to launch something, to create something because I've already brought to life and brought

to market so many other products and brands. And I know that the confidence

brands. And I know that the confidence you have when you've done that over again goes above and beyond, you know, what someone who's been working in the accounts department like might have, for

example, when it comes to like shipping one's own projects. Um I would say that you know being a product marketer very

specifically I am very thoughtful around like positioning and um yeah the product market fit piece. You know what that has meant is that there are projects that

I've worked on that I've ended up like not actually shipping at the last minute because I've done testing and then it just and then yeah I it if something

doesn't fit then I will sort of can it and go back and iterate and so it might go against like the bias to shipping

which is sort of like the popular kind of take of the day but I also I think that if you are you know someone that's

like fairly senior in their career and you know you are building something out as a side hustle there is also that consideration of credibility and so

being thoughtful around what one is launching is I think uh becomes a bit more imperative. Um

more imperative. Um yeah, but definitely like marketing is a foundation like you know the fundamentals of distribution like you

know how to get it into people's hands.

Um and and yeah and and how to create products and messaging that create value and I think that's really the the foundation.

Couldn't agree more. One of the skills that you're uniquely good at is communicating. I have to say from

communicating. I have to say from everyone I've had worked with and and connected with, you're one of those people. You're in the top sort of 5% of

people. You're in the top sort of 5% of communicators. Do you have three free

communicators. Do you have three free tips that you can offer people to communicate more effectively, especially now that so much noise and fight for attention with eyeballs? Have you got a

couple of tips for people?

>> Um, well, firstly, that's such a nice thing to say, Danny. So, thank you. Um,

it's not something that that uh that I've heard that much before and as you can hear like I'm ing and quite a lot which I'm always working on. Uh, but but

no, I appreciate that.

I am probably some variant of ADHD like on the multi-passionate side.

That means that I'm very curious about a lot of things. That means that I've always had a lot of interests.

it becomes like a lot at a certain point. But it actually also means that

point. But it actually also means that my superpower, if you will, is that when I meet people, there's pretty much

always something to connect upon is what I found. And I I do love meeting people,

I found. And I I do love meeting people, talking to people, uh hear hearing where they're from. And yeah, I think I listen

they're from. And yeah, I think I listen as well. and and like yourself, I'm a

as well. and and like yourself, I'm a trained coach and that the skills that that gives us when it comes to listening and I've been told that that I make

people feel heard um which which I really appreciate.

But good communication really is good listening and uh understanding people's worldview. So,

if anyone listening is thinking about like how they improve their communication skills, I'd say that it probably starts there

and then working on um editing out the ums and rs.

Great thing about a podcast editing tool, you can you can do that for free.

So, um I take out so many it's ridiculous. So, I wouldn't wouldn't

ridiculous. So, I wouldn't wouldn't worry about you. And also when you're editing podcast and video, you get to understand all your nervous ticks. So I

say, you know, quite a lot. So it's

something that uh I end up having to slow down and remove. So I completely agree. One thing that I like I can say

agree. One thing that I like I can say as I know you, one thing I say that you're very good at doing is getting to know someone and getting to know a topic

and then being able to explain it very simply so it lands with them almost in their language. And I think maybe that

their language. And I think maybe that does come from the the coaching and the breadth of experience you have, but there's so many people that have lost that in this hyperpersonalized world.

They rely on tools and and systems to do that as opposed to what makes marketeteers win often is the one-to-one coms and and explaining and winning over

people who you know in the PMM world you need to explain it to them so it lands with them and solves their problems as opposed to the perceived problems that people feel like you might be solving with tools. Maybe that's one of your

with tools. Maybe that's one of your other superpowers is being able to communicate that to to people individually and understanding how to communicate to them as opposed to a

bigger audience. Yeah, I'd say that when

bigger audience. Yeah, I'd say that when it comes to marketing, that definitely something that I would categorize as one of my superpowers, if you will. And it

it's interesting like when I think back to when I well actually when I was at the BBC even and that was sort of my

first experience of having to really consolidate like very dense like strategic papers, strategic reviews,

assessments, research and condense that into a press release. So I was communications officer um for a little while at the trust and

yeah that was my first experience and at first I thought it's because I'm a bit of an outsider to this whole um media

policy world that I need to simplify this and that's uh you know that's why and so I was just always thinking like this is just too simple. I think the way

that I put this together like condensed it like that's actually too simple actually as time's gone on and as I've

worked and brought various levels of complexity of of products to market from you know V which was sort of AI video

which is sort of slightly on the more like less dense side to sust global which is like really dense like climate intelligence APIs.

I've realized that that has actually been a consistent um skill that I've been able to bring like how do you translate the most complex technology

into a value proposition that people actually understand what it does for them, why they want it in their lives.

And I think that that is also a a skill that I see among the best product marketeers um and among the people who are yeah celebrated for doing this actually. So but yeah I think the BBC

actually. So but yeah I think the BBC was definitely a really good grounding for that.

>> You've worked with loads of different brands in some of the most competitive spaces. So whether it's Eventbrite BBC

spaces. So whether it's Eventbrite BBC get etc and obviously more recently V.

Are there are there a couple of other uh tips or tricks that you can give people um around like what the most important skills are? I think once you hit a

skills are? I think once you hit a certain point in your career, you kind of you don't think about your skills, you think about other people's skills, but are there sort of two or three skills that you think are the most

important that people can really work on going into like 2026?

I think having a crossf functional perspective is really key. And I think that the reason that I love product marketing so

much is because it's so inherently crossunctional. Like you really need to

crossunctional. Like you really need to be supporting like your sales team and therefore like understanding like what their pain points are, what they need.

You know, you're you're partially embedded within the product team. So

again being like super close from discovery through to launch um and then obviously with with marketing teams as well. that when I think back to the times when I was doing

more generalist marketing roles, actually being more crossunctional and being more intentional about

um shaping those relationships I think is yeah it would have been like more helpful in a way um because there's definitely like there was definitely

roles when it started to feel like really siloed and sometimes it might feel like there isn't time to go like attend the weekly product meeting, but

actually I think it's in your interest as a marketer to take that cross functional lens because it actually just gives a much better perspective for

everything else that you're doing. Um,

and I think like connected well to to the idea of like being actually can edit that bit. Um I think I

think the second thing would be like in this age of uh AI advancement like I think everyone is like a lot of

people are looking for support. So if

you can like get expert at like one specific aspect of AI within your own domain but then so that you're able to

support other people whether it's like one specific workflow one specific tool but really be able to master that and then support others. You know, if it's

if it's an automation tool, for example, there would certainly be other people across the organization where you could support, but also get support. I think

that that's probably a really useful thing to be doing to carve out your own expertise, to support your own learning journey, but to be able to help others as well.

So if I was to replace some of those tips, it would be basically be a great crossf functional colleague because having been able to understand them,

attending meetings, being able to translate what what's been said and what's going to happen is is critically important. and then helping people to go

important. and then helping people to go to become a specialist and then teach other people is going to be critically important especially the way that AI is

going to be reshaping a lot of a lot of marketing teams or a lot of disciplines cross functionally. Um I've I have a

cross functionally. Um I've I have a sort of a feeling that a lot of more senior people are going to struggle to adapt as opposed to the more junior people uh in this sort of space and

especially with AI coming coming to the forefront and already reshaping what some teams and departments are doing. Do

you think there's any blind spots that leaders have or business leaders or department leaders have with with AI like currently or you're you're experiencing in helping people move away

from that those sort of struggles?

>> Well, I think that the lumpiness and the inconsistency of adoption, it just seems to be like a really consistent trend. Like even in the

consistent trend. Like even in the highest growth tech companies right now, adoption is really inconsistent. So I

think there's a blind spot where business leaders are like here's a tool and then just assume that everyone's going to be using it the same but

without necessarily like understanding where people are without there being any kind of like a you know forcing function almost to like bring people together to

collaborate to learn and to go on the journey together. I think that's a

journey together. I think that's a that's a blind spot. I mean, I've also met um I've also met people who when I asked like where they're at with their

AI journey in their organization, they're like, "We have an agency do it all for us." And they've literally outsourced whether it's like content creation or whether it's like some of

the workflow automation to an agency or a consultancy.

And I think that's quite dangerous for the individuals involved because it's um not allowing them to have that

opportunity to upskill and learn themselves, but also by taking it out of the organization, they're just not building that knowledge that they're

really going to need to be competitive in the next era. Yeah. Yeah, I think anyone like outsourcing AI uh instead of finding someone, finding an evangelist

internally that could do it, that could support, I think that is definitely a blind spot as well. But there's

obviously like a huge blind spot around dark AI and the fact that if certain tools aren't being allowed within organizations that people are going to

go ahead and use that anyway. And so I would doubt that that's happening in organizations that have got Google Suite just because like Gemini is so advanced.

Although I spoke to some people the other week who are a very high growth AI company and they didn't actually know that you could have the equivalent projects within Gemini. So I think that

also speak to the fact that or we might have all of these tools at our fingertips, but has your organization like have they actually like gone through and done like a thorough training of like this is all the cool

stuff that you can do with AI and the Google Workspace? I haven't I haven't

Google Workspace? I haven't I haven't seen that. I haven't heard of that. I

seen that. I haven't heard of that. I

think there's just an assumption that people are just going to pick it up and run with it. But people probably need a bit more support than leaders realize.

100%. I something I recommend to to companies is you need captains and champions. Captains to to revolve and

champions. Captains to to revolve and actually help everyone else adopt it and be like the leaders. And that's kind of weekly or fortnightly leadership. And

then there's the champion side which is you need people like evangelists who are going to champion it and then help coach other people along the way, their teammates or their cross functional

colleagues. because without that, you're

colleagues. because without that, you're not really going to have anyone who's got their finger on the pulse, but also be able to help um move some things along. So, make a list of problems that

along. So, make a list of problems that you're all encountering or a number of you encounter and then you can address them that way cuz otherwise, like you said, bad AI or shadow AI is going to be

something that that comes in. And I've

seen it where people have been told no, they can't use a tool because it isn't approved by it. then they go off and they use company data and then they get in trouble because they're only trying

to progress their work and the level of work but actually they've done it the wrong way. So, I think if you can have

wrong way. So, I think if you can have this sort of ownership and championing of knowledge, I think that's the only way, like you said, to really drive it.

And I'd personally worry if you're outsourcing it to an agency, you're as soon as something breaks, you're you're on to a onto a bit of a

loser. Unfortunately, with AI and we're

loser. Unfortunately, with AI and we're entering this world with less, there's going to be less people, less budget, but there's expectations of more productivity, so more output. Do you

think teams are going to get bigger or do you think they're going to sort of get smaller in 2026? Do do you have like an opinion on that? And

>> I think there's two ways that it can play out and really I've heard founders talk about both and I know people being

impacted by both. The first is where there's a pressure for efficiencies

and there is a pressure to make cost savings and finance realize that by automating they can potentially lose

headcount. And so whether it's to show

headcount. And so whether it's to show investors that they can make the those sorts of uh reductions then

they will get rid of people to show that they can still accelerate and and capture those efficiencies by using AI. And I think we've already

seen examples of Cler um being one particularly notable one um but there are plenty of others who are going down this route. And I think it remains to be

this route. And I think it remains to be seen like what success that that gains.

But I mean again in a low at a low sort of economic point right now where we are where we're at uh it's

it's clearly a temptation. I think the other opportunity which hopefully a lot of businesses will also capture that maybe don't have the same sort of risks

or constraints as businesses who are seeing declining growth like where businesses are performing well with their existing headcount.

If you can get everyone to be 10 times more effective, then the [clears throat] there is theoretically the possibility that your company could become 10 times

more profitable if you make the right bets. You train people the right way.

bets. You train people the right way.

And there was I can't remember the name of the company but there was a really great case study that I heard recently about an organization who was very

uh early in their AI enablement and equipping the whole workforce made no reductions but has just seen like insane

growth. And I think what's really needed

growth. And I think what's really needed is that some of these case studies are amplified and that business leaders are

able to see that actually if we're smart and very intentional and disciplined about our AI roll out, then actually

there are huge gains to be made if we keep the team size as it is. And of

course, it's not necessarily going to be the case that everyone on your team is ready to be like an AI native, which everyone needs to be in this instance to

get 10x gains. So yes, there may be replacements, but actually not reduction because you still need the same people to capture the potential gains. And

there's a lot of organizational change that's required to get to that level of expansion. Um but it's but the

expansion. Um but it's but the possibilities are totally there. I don't

think there's going to be a binary outcome. I think that some companies who

outcome. I think that some companies who who are seeing declining growth are going to have to go the reduction route.

But I I would hope that they're smart enough to really make AI like to be really intentional about their roll out of AI to actually make it worth it.

um because they're going to continue to see declining growth if they don't. But

I will be excited to see continuing number of case studies where organizations bullish about growth with AI, bullish about the possibilities can

continue to demonstrate what's possible and if they're struggling, they can hire someone like you to uh to help them on their journey. Right.

their journey. Right.

>> Absolutely, Danny. Yeah. Here to help.

>> Looking forward to this. looking forward

for six to 12 months. Are there areas that gets you most excited within marketing, AI, and business?

>> I think I'm excited about what we Yeah.

What we just mentioned to continue to see case studies where organizations are creating outsiz impact

by doing more with whether it's less people, less resource, using AI. That would be one. But at an

using AI. That would be one. But at an individual level, I am really excited about like the possibilities for the full stack marketeteer who is fully AI

equipped to create.

Yeah. So, so much with just like a simple stack. And

simple stack. And I think the ability for people like myself that you know I'm I'm not a

designer by trade actually with tools like Midjourney or Figma as well like what people like me can now bring to

life with design tools despite that being you probably this part of my marketing skill set where I have like the least knowledge.

I think that that's actually going to be really fascinating to see what the fullstack marketer is going to be capable of in the next era and in general like seeing the

innovation like seeing what smaller teams are going to be able to do.

I think that's that's something that I'm excited about. I'm excited for the

excited about. I'm excited for the creativity.

Yes, there's a lot of talk about AI slot, but actually a lot of that well there is a fair amount of AI uh creativity that's actually really

incredible and I want to keep seeing and checking out those examples that are clearly AI

but actually are like clearly really creative, like really inspirational. And

I want to carve out more time to really dive into that and get inspired by that because I think we are at a point right now where you can resist the wave and

moan about the wave and like moan about AI slop. And of course like we all get

AI slop. And of course like we all get frustrated when we see really poorly written AI generated content. But the

other side of that is like some of this stuff is just crazy and like incredible and like really visually stunning. And

so like where where do we go? Like how

can we get that inspiration and continue to progress and evolve as marketeers by actually jumping on what's being there, bringing it back to our teams and

sort of adopting more of a yes and approach.

>> Yes. and is my uh favorite way of describing it. One example that that you

describing it. One example that that you used something I'm doing at the moment is if I've got long documents, I put it into notebook LM and I get it to add the

infographic at the top. So it gives someone the visual explainer as well. So

I think that's something that people can do. It's free. So you can leverage those

do. It's free. So you can leverage those types of things. So to remove remove yourself away from just creating slop or tweaking and adding filters with these really long prompts that are being

shared at the moment. I think there's some really uh great use cases of using these tools to actually make it more applicable and more transferable or

translatable to teammates or cross functional um way of working. Have you

got one or two quick uh tricks or tips that you'd offer for for people for with AI tools or with AI to to help them be

more deliberate or more successful in in a marketing role?

So, I think when it comes to strategy and planning, like number one,

don't just give AI or your LLM a prompt that says like, "Write me out my 2026 plan." Start with your own inspiration.

plan." Start with your own inspiration.

Start with your own insights. Start with

your own beliefs. I use a pen and pencil all the time. I always have a notepad next to my de desk. I'm always jotting down notes and I'll often just like take

a photo of that, upload it to Claude and say like this is where I'm this is my start point like let's brainstorm.

When it comes to I don't don't just default to thinking that the LLM's like an answer machine. I've found that my own thought processes have augmented. I

could just feel, you know, I almost feel smarter actually since having pretty much like every hour of my

working day I'm chatting in some form to Claude or Gemini. But by starting with like this is my idea and then like talking at a higher level like I think

we're actually able to increase our critical reasoning. And I think like the

critical reasoning. And I think like the studies that I've seen about like cognitive decline, I think it all just really comes from like treating the LLMs

like an answer machine. And I was guilty. Like I don't know if this is

guilty. Like I don't know if this is part of the adoption curve we all have to go on, but I definitely like presented and churned out some things that I'm not proud of now.

And this is going back like you know two years. But I also feel like in my own

years. But I also feel like in my own adoption, maybe we have to go through that route of okay, just let's get it to do everything for us before having the

quality filter come in and being like, no, actually, you know, this is good enough.

But as a result of going through that process, yeah, like I say, I really get so much value now through being able to expand upon that. I always ask for

multiple options. I never take the first

multiple options. I never take the first answer. My approach is always to be like

answer. My approach is always to be like yeah suggest like 10 options because we all know that like even when we're doing this for ourselves like we write out

like a list of like 10 possible headlines which is you know what I would always do when it came to creating copy myself like writing out 10 working from that basis

is kind of the best way to get your own like pattern recognition and then to be able to embed your own quality filter in that

The second one is I think we're really early in being able to know what's possible at speed.

And so when it comes to things like like meetings like the workflow that I mentioned before with granola and Gemini like I think that there's going to be so

much more that we can do when we actually think about like the value of the transactions that we have the meetings in terms of like our taking out

our own like inspirational takeaways and our own kind of knowledge that I think we're only just really starting to understand well actually what's possible when only think about like the whole of

a lot of the interactions that we have because before with pen and paper you'd maybe like have a few bullet points but I think we're just going to be able to get so much more

nuance and just get so much more like depth of strategic insight if we're like really intentional with tools like that.

But I think with voice, I think Whisper Flow is one tool that hadn't mentioned, but that I've started to use a lot more and actually just like how much more

we're able to do through voice. So

whether it's Yeah. granola transcripts,

whether it's like actually just like shipping because we're using our voice to type instead of uh actually typing. we're really at the

edge of something that's going to be quite quite crazy uh in terms of like personal productivity.

But again, like I think it's important that people experiment now because even a few weeks ago, like someone posted on that post that I think you mentioned, Danny, about Whisper Flow, and I was

like, "Oh, yeah, but I really like typing." But now I've been using Whisper

typing." But now I've been using Whisper Flow like day in day out. And I'm like, "Wow, this is uh yeah, shoot. You can

get so much more done." But I think it's important to try and like not resist if you have that like initial resency because I think again it'll happen quite

fast and we're all going to be voice pill and then if you're not and you're still typing like again I think it's just that risk of maybe not not going

with that flow. So, I definitely recommend that everyone has a little go with Whisper Flow and sees how much more productive they can be. And I think

there'll still be a role for typing for me at least, but actually for a bunch of things now, it's like, oh yeah, this is yeah, makes things 10 times faster.

>> I definitely agree.

A lot of the time I write to think often. So, I'll type something out and

often. So, I'll type something out and then once I've got it cemented, then it's something I can I can move forward with. I know a number of people who

with. I know a number of people who because we've spoken for thousands of thousands of years, but we've only written for a lot less. So, often it's much easier to articulate something by

voice. And some people are far more

voice. And some people are far more articulate than I am by speaking. So,

it's like their perfect use case. They

can get much further forward by speaking into a device. uh like whether it's whisper flow or even Apple notes is really good at sort of transcribing those types of things now. So whether

it's writing an email really quickly you can say it dictated and it sends it whether it's putting it into another tool and it translates it into slides etc. These are all great sort of use

cases I think people haven't necessarily thought of because it isn't like their natural working environment or or in their process. So, it's definitely

their process. So, it's definitely something I think people will be taking advantage of, maybe more from home than in an office cuz uh it's something that's still a little bit unusual, I

suppose, by speaking out loud versus uh typing. actually was listening to a

typing. actually was listening to a podcast with uh the Whisper Flow founder 10A yesterday and he said that there's

actually like whole offices now where people have like their little USB mic plugged in just like whispering into the mic like that because it really does

pick up like the faintest whisper and yeah so that's that's interesting.

The future of the office is going to be also changed by which is going to be really interesting to see. Should we run for a quick fire round to to finish up?

>> Sure, let's do it.

>> Great. What metric are people overlooking uh the importance of?

>> I think right now it's the time to value. So, how quick do you get to that

value. So, how quick do you get to that magic moment in your product experience that's going to make you sticky and stand out? What are you most excited

stand out? What are you most excited about the future of marketing?

>> The death of generic content and the rebirth of highly creative eye capturing content.

>> Awesome. If you had one tool to get yourself off a desert island, which tool would you use?

>> Can I just say the whole Google AI workspace?

>> Perfect. I'm sure uh Gemini and Sundar would be very happy with uh with you saying that. uh what what is the one

saying that. uh what what is the one tactic one business tactical marketing tactic that's being overlooked most at the moment?

>> So I think it's like focused on first principles. What is it that we're trying

principles. What is it that we're trying to achieve?

Not getting overwhelmed by the tools and by everything that is is happening in the widest space and FOMO. what is it

that we're trying to do specifically and then figuring out the best way to do that starting with what our customers need and then ending in like what is it that we how is it that we actually

fulfill that need.

>> Great. Is there a common theme that you're seeing as hindering companies time and time again?

Uh I think it's clarity on objectives like that that mission shift from the start of the year when everyone like has a a specific view around OKRs but then

by Q4 there's just been a kind of a shift and what's happened over the course of the year has really not uh yeah it's drifted off

the focus of the main the main name of the game. If there was one area of

the game. If there was one area of product or marketing or or product marketing, depends on which way you want to look at it, you could change, what would it be?

>> Hey, breaking down the silos and improving communication between teams. >> Couldn't agree more. Uh, and what's one question I should have probably asked you but didn't?

>> Maybe like what's the most common mistake that companies make when implementing AI?

What what is it then?

>> Well, I think trying to automate broken processes instead of fixing them, whether it's like missing data or whether it's just the fact that there's

so much inherent messiness that hasn't been addressed first. Like workflows,

automating workflows only works when you've got clean workflows to begin with.

>> Could not agree more at all. That is

that's exactly what I've been saying uh recently too. So completely agree. If

recently too. So completely agree. If

people want to reach out, they want to work with you, they want to collaborate with you on an AI project or PMM project, where should people reach out to you and and get in contact with you, Katie?

>> Uh yeah, reach out to my LinkedIn. Feel

free to link it in the show notes.

>> Definitely. Thank you very much, Katie.

Uh there's so much value in there. I

know a lot of people will uh it'll be one that they come back to over and over. So, thanks for your time and

over. So, thanks for your time and [music] uh I look forward to hearing how people work with you in the future.

>> Thanks, Danny.

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