李光耀谈中国|老狐狸把中国吃的太透了|最了解中国的外国元首

that pacing Olympics if you watch it what was the message >> go back >> no 5,000 years and don't forget we invented all these things and we're

going to go ahead in the next 5,000 years the Chinese have had 4,000 years or 5,000 years of all kinds of catastrophes [music]

earthquakes floods famine uh invasions where the central government failed entirely and you can No, nobody can help you. You've got to

help yourself. There are two rules of

help yourself. There are two rules of law in China. One for the ordinary citizen [music] and the other for 76 million members of the communist party

and the judges will do what they know what the leaders require to keep the country stable. China wants time to grow

country stable. China wants time to grow to grow. If there's going to be any

to grow. If there's going to be any conflict, let's postpone it for 50 years. I told him that Clinton turned

years. I told him that Clinton turned down Churungi for this WTO.

>> [music] >> So he said that's a great mistake because >> Lee Kuanu is here as Singapore's founding father. He served as prime

founding father. He served as prime minister for more than 30 years until 1990. He now serves as minister mentor

1990. He now serves as minister mentor to the current prime minister his son.

At age 86 he is regarded as an elder statesman on the global stage whose views are widely sought. He's in the United States from meetings in New York with people like Henry Kissinger in Washington with people like the chairman of the Federal Reserve Ben Bernani and the president of the World Bank Bob

Zelic. He will also receive a lifetime

Zelic. He will also receive a lifetime achievement award from the US ACSEAN business council. I am pleased to have

business council. I am pleased to have him back at this table to get a world view that he is highly regarded for uh understanding the dynamics of the world that we have come from and the world that we are going to. So welcome.

>> Thank you.

>> Um where are we do you think in terms of a kind of world order we have gone through the in the ' 89 and 90 the collapse of the Soviet Union the

collapse of the Berlin wall then we had uh the United States engaged in the Middle East uh in a long war that continues. Then we had the global

continues. Then we had the global economic crisis. So many people say what

economic crisis. So many people say what is going to come out of this?

>> Well, I see the uh embroio in Iraq and Afghanistan as distractions.

It's not going to change the world.

whatever happens to Iraq or Afghanistan because the major changes that are taking place is the recovery of China and to

uh to a lesser extent of India to the places they occupied two centuries or three and a half three centuries ago before western colonization blanketed them three centuries ago they were between

the two of them 60% of the world GDP just the population and the production that they put Uh China is again on the growth path.

She's now a member of WTO.

She knows that every year she's growing faster than anybody else and can do that for another 20 30 years because they got such an enormous sub number of workers

back in the west in the hinterlands uh 8 9% 10% no trouble at all. But after

that and they reach a ceiling where the labor is concerned and then they got to upcreased productivity but by then in 30 years they would have an economy not per

capita but in total terms bigger than the USA which means they've got resources to build up uh political strategic

and other influence and in fact in anticipation of that people already treat her differently.

because they know that this is going to be a a big fellow around the block.

[snorts] It's it's a watershed. I mean, the world order that we knew was dominated by the Caucasian peoples, Europe,

uh technology, sailing ships and aircraft. They

conquered the world. Industrialization,

>> globalization, >> globaliz well industrialization first and they globaliz and America is the extension of Europe

with a difference and that she's more embracing of other races. [sighs]

The 20th century was the American century.

The first half of the 21st century a large part of it will still be the American but I believe the second half you will

have to share top places with China and also with India. Make space for them too. You have said in a speech I read

too. You have said in a speech I read just today that the relationship between the United States and China based on what you just said has become the most important global geopolitical issue.

Yes.

>> Of the century. Yes.

>> How they both handle it.

>> From the Chinese side in a very pragmatic uh almost cold bloodooded and clinical fashion.

On the American side, >> [groaning] >> uh there's been some vacasillation.

First, China is an adversary, strategic adversary. Then China is a strategic

adversary. Then China is a strategic partner. Then China is a stakeholder.

partner. Then China is a stakeholder.

Then China is a uh not carrying his weight. But

>> China wants to be as in the famous words of Bob Zel, now the uh president of the World Bank, and they want to be a stakeholder because Bob Zelic coined that phrase >> in Singapore. I think

>> well I mean whatever it was >> whatever it was >> and the Chinese were wondering what that meant >> they didn't know what stakeholder meant they now know >> yes they looked up the dictionaries they didn't get much out of it they discuss

it with friends and uh I'm one of the friends so I said to them well that means although you're not a shareholder in the company you have an interest in the company because you sell to the

company and if the company goes bust you got no customer and if you got no customer your trade will go down and you have unemployment. So you have an

have unemployment. So you have an interest in keeping that company going and they have an interest in keeping you going because you are a good customer.

You're a good producer for them. Cheap

goods, cheap products and good quality.

>> Well, there's great hope that they will become more of a consuming economy and we will become more of a saving economy.

>> You point that out. [laughter]

The Chinese have had 4,000 years or 5,000 years of all kinds of catastrophes, earthquakes, floods famine

uh invasions where the central government failed entirely and they can nobody can help you. You've got to help yourself.

Let me tell you this anecdote. I was uh having my game left shoulder from golf being massaged by a very superior Chinese master who attends to their leaders and they sent him down to try

and fix my game shoulder and he fixed it in 3 weeks. So we had to chat because I have 45 minutes on the couch. What can I do? So there was a flood up the young

do? So there was a flood up the young sea river. So I said, "Oh, well now you

sea river. So I said, "Oh, well now you you've opened up. You get lots of relief supplies." He looked at me and puzzled.

supplies." He looked at me and puzzled.

This is you don't understand. The relief

supplies will arrive in Shanghai. The

floods will prevent it from reaching the villages and each village knows that it's going to happen from time to time. And up on the little hill they keep the rice, the

salt and all the essentials safe so that they will survive such a calamity.

And that habit just like the Japanese have the kit underneath their bed for earthquakes that is their habit of surviving. So

they stuff the money under the pillow cuz banks are not trustworthy or gold >> and that habit is not going to change.

That habit of >> it will take a long time. It will take one two generations of affluence and I it may happen in the cities and it's not going to happen in the countryside.

>> You say this about America uh as well.

You talk about the Chinese as having have patience and they have persistence and they have discipline and they have organization. But you say America has

organization. But you say America has something special that will be part of the inevitable competition. It is its resilience and more importantly its creativity.

>> Yes, of course. Look, it's not just American talent that gets you here.

You're just 300 million people and they got 1,300 million and very many more able people. But you are attracting all

able people. But you are attracting all the adventurous minds from all over the world and embracing them and they they become part of your team. Now I don't

see two 2 million Indians and uh uh half a million other people's Japanese, Koreas and others becoming part of China. I mean first the language is so

China. I mean first the language is so difficult.

>> Yes.

>> Secondly, the culture is not embracive.

How >> how do you fit in? What should the United States do as it looks at the inevitable growth of China as a dominant player? What would be a wise foreign

player? What would be a wise foreign policy?

>> I think >> because you have two or three decades before it reaches its full strength.

>> No, even in three decades, it won't reach its full strength. In three

decades, it's per capita is still about one/ird of America.

>> It's gross domestic product.

>> Well, for it to reach America's standard of living and standard of technology will take more than a 100 years. So what

should the United States do while it has the position it has now?

>> I think make sure that they feel that they are accepted at the top table.

>> Make sure that China feels like it's accepted at the top.

>> Yes. Is your place is waiting for you when you make it. But you got to play by the rules of the game.

And the key really is whether the next generation, this generation understands it. They know that they have no chance

it. They know that they have no chance competing against the west, America especially in technology and especially military technology. Absolutely no

military technology. Absolutely no chance. They may build a aircraft

chance. They may build a aircraft carrier to guard the shipping lines where they carry oil and other minerals.

This is the first time where the Chinese are growing but dependent on the world for its resources.

>> But they're going around the world uh signing up contracts in Iran and in Africa.

>> Absolutely. But before that, it's all within the Chinese empire. They don't

have to worry about the rest of the world. This time they have to worry

world. This time they have to worry about the rest of the world because without the resources, the oil, the iron ore, nickel, whatever, the growth will stop.

>> Will they be able to create the domestic demand that's necessary as they find exports reduced >> slowly? But in the meantime, there's

>> slowly? But in the meantime, there's keeping the economy going by enormous expenditure on infrastructure in the west. highspeed roads, highspeed

west. highspeed roads, highspeed railways, uh airports, telephone lines, uh bringing water from the south up to the north where it's added and dry. He

huge enormous mammoth projects that keeps it going.

>> Will India have an advantage? Some argue

because it's democracy and China is not.

>> Let me put it this way. If India were as well organized as China, it would go at a different speed. But is going at the speed it is because it is India. It's

not one nation, it's many nations. It

has 320 different languages and 32 official languages. So no prime minister

official languages. So no prime minister in Delhi can at any one time speak in a language and be understood throughout the country. You can do that in Beijing.

the country. You can do that in Beijing.

[snorts] >> So in the end, do you think that system will change in Beijing?

>> I think it will have to change as the people get more and more urbanized.

Today it's about 40% urban or less than 40% urban, more than 60% rural.

>> When you reach the tipping point and 60 70% are urban with mobile phones, PDAs, you can download anything you want, send any messages you want. It's already had

it this effect. I mean the Sichuan earthquake in the old days nobody would know about it except seismologist to say that such an earthquake took place here

immediately SMS all the Chinese knew the world knew and they had to go public and the prime the prime minister took a plane full of

uh pressman and went there and try to comfort them and assure them that they'll be >> so you're saying that communication and uh [snorts] and technology and the flow of information will have an impact

>> and in the and the urbanization if you're in the countryside that's different you can be isolated >> but when you're in the together in an urban center and they are

planning 10 urban centers with 40 billion people each that's their plans on the plans on the uh greater scheme of

things 40 billion people in four mega cities always you know you can call up a meeting anytime you You going to riot anytime you want. So

it's a different world. Therefore, you

have to pay attention to what people think. And today they're watching the

think. And today they're watching the internet very carefully because they know what the what the average person in the in the cities are thinking.

>> Now, what are they afraid of? Where is

their fear of >> No, it's not afraid. They just do not they just do not want to lose control.

>> Well, so they're afraid of control.

>> No, they're afraid that they will lose control of the situation. In the old days, way back in Ma's days, everybody is dependent on the state. The

state is the only employer and everybody has what you call a hook. Hooko is a a residence permit.

And if you lose your job because you're anti the government of or you're a crook or whatever, you've had it. There's no

other employer.

But today there are multiple employers, all companies.

>> So people have options.

>> Yes. Absolutely. And that means the government has lost control over the people. I mean they can be

people. I mean they can be entrepreneurs, they can be they run their own businesses, shops, whatever it is.

>> But are they moving towards some form not a western form some form of more participation in the political process?

>> Uh they are co-opting all the successful people into the communist system.

>> That's a smart policy.

>> The chamin calls it the three representatives. So whether you're an

representatives. So whether you're an artist, whether you're a businessman, whether you're an activist, I could anybody who's got the extra drive to contribute to a greater China, come and join us.

>> Coming out of the global economic crisis, uh even though the United States is a dominant country, >> uh it is forced to look to build and to

engage and build coalitions on a whole range of big issues and there is never now a guarantee of unanimous support.

It's hard to put together. For example,

sanctions against Iran.

>> Iran is a special case. Iran got oil and gas. The Chinese desperately needs they

gas. The Chinese desperately needs they need oil and gas. Uh Russia is playing a game with Iran. Russia doesn't need oil and gas. But Russia wants to cut the US

and gas. But Russia wants to cut the US down to size and remind the US, you need me to run the war.

With the Chinese, they have they doing their calculations. I think in extremist

their calculations. I think in extremist they must know that if they buck the world if once the Russians says all right we agree I would bet 50/50 that the Chinese will also say

>> so if the Russians say we'll we'll engage in sanctions the Chinese will follow >> they would not want to be the odd man out and be held responsible >> what if the United States would find another partner another supplier of

energy for Iran >> no in place of Iran >> yes >> where do you find >> well in the Middle East in Saudi Arabia Not possible.

>> Not possible.

>> But I had a Chinese diplomat say to me that they would be they would welcome that. That if in fact they did not have

that. That if in fact they did not have a necessity of needing Iranian oil, >> they would go along with sanctions cuz they don't think >> they need Iranian oil, they need Arabian oil, they need Nigerian oil, they need Angola oil, they need >> they need all the oil they can find

anywhere.

>> Yes, of course.

>> For the to fuel the economic growth at 8%.

>> Absolutely.

>> Tell me about Russia and what how you see Russia today.

Well, look, I'm doing a little bit of business in Russia.

>> Yes.

>> And I'm also a member of the board of uh governors of the Skolovo business school, invited to join it by Matt Vidv, who's now the president.

So, I speak as one who is uh a semi uh semi-Russian colleague.

I would say they would do enormously better if they could get their system right.

The system's not as functioning, not as functional as it should be because it has gone haywire. They've lost control over the uh various provinces. Putin is

trying to bring it back to the center, but it's difficult.

>> What do you think of the relationship between Putin and Medved?

>> Everybody knows that uh Mr. Medv is a great friend of Putin and also knows that Mr. Putin is a very powerful fellow

and Mr. Matt Vetel is working through uh very powerful men called Silivokis >> who are all from the FSB

which is a former KGB.

>> Yes. I mean so I would I would not Mr. Mr. Medb is a highly intelligent man.

He's a good friend of Putin and he sees no reason why he should want to clash with Putin >> and Mr. Mr. Putin will return to be president another day.

>> I would say the probabilities are high.

>> But you also said in the speech I read that their capabilities of Russia are limited. The capabilities are limited.

limited. The capabilities are limited.

>> Well, they've got enormous uh nuclear arsenal.

But what else?

The army is a very different army now.

uh the air force they're building new fighters but I mean their navy it's and their population is declining

aids uh alcohol drugs and pessimism

if you you're every year more Russians die than Russians are born because people are not optimistic in America people are optimistic and Right? I bring

a child up into the bring a child into the world. But when your life is so

the world. But when your life is so harsh and from time to time it gets better when the oil price goes up, but that's only momentary, >> you have a different view of the future.

So what's the point of this?

>> What about Japan back to Asia?

>> I think the Japanese need an overall >> terms of their political system.

>> Yeah. And in terms of their acceptance of immigrants, their birth rate is one point. Their

fertility fertility rate is just slightly higher than ours. We are 1.29 to 1.38 and they're shrinking. But we are a small population. So we are in we can

small population. So we are in we can make up with any numbers from young bright Indians, young bright Chinese, young bright Malaysians and all the people around the world and some Middle

Easterners. You we now have Ukrainians

Easterners. You we now have Ukrainians serving in our army, our citizens.

>> Ukrainians in Singapore.

>> Yes, of course. Russians too. East

Europeans and Britishers who have married our local girls and British women who married Singapore men. But

Japan does not want immigrants. So they

are stuck. Today they have 3.2 working persons to support one adult.

>> In 2055 they'll have 1.2 person to support one adult.

>> And immigrants has been America's strength.

>> Absolutely. But mind you, immigration of the highly intelligent and highly hardworking, very hardworking people, if you get immigration of the fruit

pickers [laughter] you may not get very far.

I I met some a Chinese delegation recently who's here in the last couple of weeks and I said to a very important member of the government, not at the highest level, but very important, what

are you doing here? He said, "We're trying to get highly educated Chinese >> to go back."

>> Yes.

>> Yes, of course.

>> To go back. I said, "Well, what do you say to them?" Say to them, "You'll have opportunity." And I say to them, "The

opportunity." And I say to them, "The homeland needs you." That's what he said.

>> That doesn't sell.

>> What will sell is you can leave anytime you want and I allow your children special educational facilities and all of you can keep your American green card or passports >> and that works.

>> Well, I'm not sure whether it'll work, but they'll go back and and test the waters. some. But will you go back and

waters. some. But will you go back and stay?

Maybe because you know the older generation they are emotionally tied up.

But will your children stay? No.

Their their their upbringing has been here and they go back to China and they say, "Wow, this is a very regimented society.

Papa, I'm going back." [laughter]

So no, there's no comparison. I mean,

there are two and there's chalk and cheese.

>> Yes. between the two societies, especially for young children who can see how independent American children are, can grow up and be become anything

they want. Beatnicks if you like or to

they want. Beatnicks if you like or to use an old expression >> or whatever in China you come out like sausages.

>> Yes, exactly. Sir, so will the Chinese be able to say one of the things that you point to in terms of this uh relationship between this competition, you say China and the United States will have competition, but they must inv

avoid conflict. Yeah.

avoid conflict. Yeah.

No, I think both sides don't want conflict.

>> They don't want conflict. China wants to spend time focusing on its internal development, it economic development.

>> China wants time to grow.

>> If there's going to be any conflict, let's postpone it for 50 years.

>> But inevitably, at some point, as China grows, it's going to want to be the dominant nation in the world because it'll have >> but it is not going back to Tong China.

>> Yeah.

>> Or Han China where they were the only dominant power in the world. This time

they're going back to a world where there are several dominant poles that's as inventive and more creative than them.

>> So we're looking at a multipolar world.

>> Yes. Absolutely.

>> We'll never go back to sort of the kind of thing that we have between the Soviet Union and the United States.

>> No. No. There'll be the US, that'll be China. The Indians are going to be

China. The Indians are going to be themselves. They're not going to be

themselves. They're not going to be anybody's lucky. They may not be as big

anybody's lucky. They may not be as big as China and GDP.

>> Then you also suggest they've got to develop a manufacturing capacity.

>> Yes, of course. uh you're going to have Europe will be an economic force. It

will not be a strategic political or military force because they can't get together foreign policy.

>> It's inevitable that they can never get together.

>> I'm not saying it's inevitable, but if you look at them that still 27 different nations, I mean they won't accept one language, although they all use English as a second language. But you tell them

that in Brussels you speak either French or English or either your own language or English which is what is actually happening in committees. They absolutely

refuse. So how long will that dis take to disappear? I don't know. I think may

to disappear? I don't know. I think may never happen. Take a take Singapore.

never happen. Take a take Singapore.

>> Yes.

>> You have said that you have Singapore has to maintain its relevance.

>> Yes.

>> It has to be a place that people want to invest in. It has to be a place Go

invest in. It has to be a place Go ahead.

>> It has to be a place that's useful to the world. Otherwise, it wouldn't exist.

the world. Otherwise, it wouldn't exist.

>> And that's what you had created since the founding of the modern city state.

>> We have made ourselves relevant to the world.

>> And and how will you maintain your relevancy?

>> By keeping on changing. You cannot

maintain your relevance by just staying put. The world changes.

put. The world changes.

There are shifts in the geopolitics and the economics of the world. We got to watch it and we got to ride it. You surf

with the as the surf comes this way, you ride the surf. We are keeping our links with America, with Japan, with Europe.

They brought us to where we are.

>> And you're not going to have to choose sides. No other nation will have to

sides. No other nation will have to choose.

>> Absolutely refuse to choose sides.

>> But we will we will not choose sides between America and China or between China and and India.

>> But I just read today an announcement by your sovereign wealth fund >> in Singapore of like over what $1.3 billion in new investments. None coming

to the United States, going to China, to India, to Brazil, and I forgotten where else.

>> That's just 1.3 billion out of 300 billion. It's just

billion. It's just >> But none to the United States, mostly going to call the brick countries.

>> Yeah, but the United States at the moment is in somewhat of a uh unstable state. Is the dollar going to decline?

state. Is the dollar going to decline?

>> What do you mean?

>> Yes, it is cheap. But supposing you buy and the deficits grow and balaki is unable your fed federal government is unable to draw enough liquidity out of

the market and you got hyperinflation.

Wow. It will go down and you've lost money. So everybody's hedging and

money. So everybody's hedging and there's a very >> So they hedging by looking at other places too.

>> Yeah. But where you tell me?

>> No. Tell me where. If it's not the United States, there's nowhere to go right now.

>> We go to the parties to the euro.

>> Yeah. Uh we are not going to know very little to Japan, Australia, New Zealand, uh the R&P, the Chinese UN is highly controlled. They can make it go up, they

controlled. They can make it go up, they can make it go down and you're not quite sure which way is going to go. Whereas

in the US, you can look at the figures and you can read the federal reports every time they make a decision and you can make your guess.

>> You also said that China and the United States, they both have to change their mindset.

>> Yes. What did you mean by that?

>> Well, for the Americans, you've got to cease to think in terms of the Chinese as of they are today.

>> The Chinese as they are today are people who have been suffering for very long time, especially under Mao and who feel that the world is cruel to them

and therefore they're very edgy.

the Chinese there if you talk to Chinese leaders now those over 60 they all with Russian as the second language right in 20 25 years time you're going to meet a

generation who are now in the lower ranks who have been to America and Britain and Europe and will be English speaking and have different models in

their minds and they will know that they are not going to be the sole power in the world not ever again because this is a globalized world and they know that

they are dependent on the world for their growth, the resources that they need.

>> So they got to be part of the world.

>> Yes. Before I mean before meaning up till the time when the British and the others colonialized them in a in a

partial way. Everything grew within

partial way. Everything grew within China. Whatever they needed, they

China. Whatever they needed, they captured territory.

>> Then they found global markets.

>> George HW Bush invited them to sell to America. He he

was the US representative before they had uh ambassadors and he had a a liking for them. They

were good to him. So he says you you sell to us and they sold and it succeeded and they say this is this is the way to get out of our poverty.

>> That was your friend Dang that.

>> Yes. Yes.

>> Yeah.

>> Then they got into the World Trade Center as a member WTO.

I've just met Bob Rubin today. And uh he and Henry and I, Henry Kash and I told him that Clinton turned down Churung Chi for this WTO.

>> So he said that's a great mistake because if you turn them down, all they will do is to be a spoiler. They'll

reverse engineer all your patents and you find generic products and >> imitations on the market. Bring them in.

Get them to observe the rules.

>> Well, that's a big if.

>> Yeah.

>> You got to get them to observe the rules. They are going to have to observe

rules. They are going to have to observe the rules and they will >> and they understand that.

>> No, because they're going to they are making patents of their own now.

>> They want to open the markets around the world and be a part of the global economy.

>> No, no, they are doing research almost in every sector now >> including life sciences.

>> Here's what which is something that Singapore got involved in very much with stem cell. Why did you do that?

stem cell. Why did you do that?

>> Well, we figured out with these smart fellows around us so many of them whatever we do they will do in time and better. But there are some areas where

better. But there are some areas where they will take a very long time to be able to do what we're doing. And that's

to change the system from opacity to transparency from no protection for copyright to protection for copyright

and rule of law. There are two rules of law in China. One for the ordinary citizen and the other for 76 million members of the communist party.

And the judges will do what they know what the leaders require to keep the country stable. So would you look we've

country stable. So would you look we've got all the big farmer companies in Singapore.

>> Yes.

>> They're not in China. They will sell them >> because you have protection you have rule of law. You have protection of that >> and we we're doing joint research with them on the on the effect of these new

drugs on various types racial types of the population. Can you make an argument

the population. Can you make an argument that a country who leads in technology and science uh it'll play a long it will go a long way in terms of their place in the world?

>> Yes, of course. That's why I think the US will steal will still very powerful and considerable uh inventor and creator of new products.

>> You know, you must have a wonderful conversation with your friend Henry Kissinger then.

>> No, no, no. Stop there though. Where do

you and Henry Kissinger differ on an on a look a view of the US role in the world? I don't think we we are there's

world? I don't think we we are there's any difference.

>> Is that right? How would you define it then?

>> I think the US can be a benign stabilizer of the world order.

>> A benign stabilizer.

>> Yeah. Without the US, East Asia would never have grown.

>> You brought peace in technology, trade and investments and East Asia flourished.

>> Well, that's clear. It's happened in East Asia. You're talking about

East Asia. You're talking about Singapore and North and South Korea and >> Absolutely. So,

>> Absolutely. So, >> and so what are your priorities >> for Singapore?

>> No, for the United States. What are be the priorities?

>> I I cannot think. I'm not an American. I

do not uh calculate in American terms. I calculate what Americans are likely to do in relation to what will happen to me.

>> Yeah. Well, that's that's why they listen to you. That's why you're going to see Mr. Bernanki tomorrow, and that's why you're going to see Larry Summers, and that's why you're going to see all these American officials. They want to know how you assess the way the world is working today. And your central message

working today. And your central message is you got to engage. You got to make the Chinese feel like they are a worthy part of the world community and you got to help them join the WTO and all the things they want to do.

>> No, they've already joined.

>> I know. I know they've joined, but you got to make sure that they're treated fairly.

>> You got to make sure that they understand membership requires certain obligations.

>> Right.

>> And the obligations start with responsibility.

>> But you also say about the United States, it has to realize that most problems need an American participation in order to be solved.

>> Yes. Absolutely.

>> Absolutely. So, you and I had a conversation once about about a whole range of leaders and you said to me the man that you most admired of all the people you'd ever met was >> Dong Shop. That's what you told me.

>> Dong Xiaoping admired you too because he sent Chinese 30 40,000 of them to Singapore to figure out what you were doing. Am I right?

>> Yes.

>> What was it you were doing that he wanted to see?

He was astonished when he came for the first time in 1978 to tell us to prevent Vietnam from invading Cambodia because they're doing it on behalf of the Russians.

Then he found a Singapore which was contrary to what he was given in his brief.

>> Yes, >> he found a prosperous orderly society.

Everybody owning their own homes and with a job. So I said, "How did you get there?" I said, "Well, we educated our

there?" I said, "Well, we educated our people and look at all these companies, Americans, Japanese, Europeans. They

bring technology, they train our people, we learn how to do things and because we're cheaper after a while, we become general managers and company managing

directors and we learn how to do that and we become suppliers to them." So he said, "Oh, you made use of capitalism to build an a more egalitarian society.

Everybody owns their own home. I will do the same.

>> And he did.

>> He did. He did. He went back and declared 12 special economic zones.

Shun, Kango, Shanghai, Italian and so on the coastal cities and they succeeded.

>> So he was the greatest man you ever met because he understood because of the results. He changed the nation and

results. He changed the nation and therefore >> he's a member of the old guard. He

fought in the long march. He chased the KMT out across the young sea. He led the >> He was a victim of the cultural revolution.

>> Yes. But he was realistic. He knew the system was not working. He knew that they were going to end up down in a deep

hole. [laughter] And he decided against

hole. [laughter] And he decided against the against all the advice of his fellow old guards that they will change.

>> And he had the brains and the power to pull it off.

>> Yes. And when they tried to stop him in 1992 from going too fast, he went down to Senchan and said, "Learn from all countries in the world and most of all,

learn from Singapore. The order is good and they have a very prosperous society."

prosperous society." >> You've never had a moment that you thought Singapore was too authoritative.

Have you? Not one moment.

>> My job is to get the place going and give everybody a decent life and a decent education. And we're now the best

decent education. And we're now the best educated people in the whole of East Asia. Our universities, we've got three,

Asia. Our universities, we've got three, four universities. Fourth one coming up.

four universities. Fourth one coming up.

>> So the end justifies a means whatever it might be.

>> No, the ends were laudable. Everybody wants the same

were laudable. Everybody wants the same ends. Everybody wants good education,

ends. Everybody wants good education, good health, >> a good life, and their children do better than they did.

>> The means I had the consent and support of the population. If they opposed me and they did not cooperate, it wouldn't have worked.

>> You were in control of everything.

>> No.

>> Yes, you were. You know that.

>> But [laughter] the numbers of people who were opposing me, including the communists in the very early days, >> was endless.

>> China is growing at 8% in the second half of 2009 and it looks better and better as it goes up.

>> No, no. And Chinese economy is nothing compared to the American economy >> because the bases >> once you once you stabilize >> what's the most important change and most significant change in your way of

thinking about the world over the last 20 years that the impossible can happen.

I never thought that the Soviet Union would implode so easily.

And I never thought that the Chinese would abandon uh the communist system and and move

into the free market so readily.

It was unthinkable 20 years ago.

Both has happened. The world has changed.

And it's not clear exactly how it's all going to >> No, it is not exactly clear when it will happen >> exactly.

>> But that it will happen now in the long term 50 to 100 years. Yes.

>> And the center of gravity is shifting to Asia >> must be because the population is there that the talent pool of 1.3 billion people plus the Japanese, the Koreans

and the Vietnamese and the others. No,

it can match Europe and America.

But that talent pool was inert.

Did not have science and technology. Did

not care about science and technology.

But now everything that you do Asia is doing. You go into stem cell research, we are going to stem cell research. Tanya Singapore has to go into

research. Tanya Singapore has to go into it in order to get into a field where the Chinese cannot compete with us. And

the Chinese are in it in a very big way.

They're watching you and whatever you do say, "Oh yes, we will we will do that."

They are far behind of course but given time they're going to catch up.

>> They're enormously curious.

>> They are enormously curious.

>> Not just curious. They're enormously

ambitious to catch up for good reasons and for good ends >> that you must ask them. But I think the reason is they have to they have a sense of frustration that they were down for

so long.

>> Right.

>> Let's make it now. Here's our chance.

And the United States has to uh encourage them.

>> No, you don't have to encourage them.

You just got to understand that they look they don't want to be an honorary member of the West unlike Russia.

They're quite happy to be Chinese and to remain as such. So when you tell them you ought to do this, you ought to do that, they say yes, thank you. And in

the back of their minds, we have lasted 5,000 years, have you? [laughter]

that pacing Olympics if you watch it what was the [music] message >> we're back >> no 5,000 years and don't forget we invented all these things and we're going [music] to go ahead in the next

5,000 years is the only country where language has survived 5,000 years the only country where the present generation shares the same basic thinking as the past and they're very

proud of it [music] I mean you read Hint's speech on the 60th anniversary I mean it's All translated on the web.

What is it? We have [music] 5,000 years of civilization. We are going to get

of civilization. We are going to get there.

And it's a rousing speech.

It may take us a long time. It's you can work very hard. [music]

We will do it. That's their mood. So you

don't have to encourage them. What you

got to get them to understand is [music] with it goes responsibility.

hungry Africans, hungry sick other people. [music]

This is a global problem. You can't just take copper and gold and do hell with it. You got to have a responsibility

it. You got to have a responsibility [music] with the people whose copper and gold you're mining.

It goes with the job and they will have to learn that. I

think they're already [music] beginning to learn that. So, they're giving something back. It's pleasure to talk to

something back. It's pleasure to talk to you again as