We replaced our sales team with 20 AI agents—here’s what happened next | Jason Lemkin (SaaStr)

used to have about 10 people full-time.

Now you have 1.2 humans, 20 agents.

>> We have 10 desks that used to be go to market people. They're all just labeled

market people. They're all just labeled with our agents. Reply for replet, quali for qualified, arty for artisan, agent force needs a nickname. Agents work all night and they work weekends and they work on Christmas. We're done with hiring humans in sales. We're done.

>> The business is doing very similarly to what it was when you had 10 humans. If I

had two more great humans that wanted to join, don't get me wrong, I would hire them tomorrow. But I'm not going to hire

them tomorrow. But I'm not going to hire someone that after their third month in the job doesn't know what Saster does, I just can't do that. AI is replacing the jobs people don't want to do today, and it is displacing the midpack and the mediocre.

>> How do you see the future of the sales profession?

>> We should have $250,000 a year SDRs, but they'd be like at Versel, they'd be managing 10 agents, not 10 people. The

classic SDR junior kid that is hired out of college to send emails, we don't need them. folks that qualify leads coming

them. folks that qualify leads coming in, the contact me that we see, we have no need for them today. They should be extinct next year.

>> Someone's listening to this like, "Oh man, my job is in trouble."

>> If you can go do this, you're hyper employable.

Today, my guest is Jason Lmin, founder and CEO of Saster, the world's largest community for B2B founders and one of my absolute favorite sales and go to market minds on the planet. Jason is not only

deeply knowledgeable about everything sales, he's also extremely articulate and direct and is also now personally going super deep on what AI can do for a

sales or he's transformed his own saster sales team from around 10 SDRs and AEES to one full-time AE, a part-time chief

of AI named Amelia, and 20 AI agents. He

is seeing the same performance from his AI team as he saw with his former human team and he's just getting started.

These are my favorite kinds of conversations because the guest is living in the future and comes here to show us what the future is like, where we're headed and how we can get there ourselves and also just how to avoid all

the pitfalls that he had to deal with along the way. We cover all of the things that he has learned about where sales and go to market is going in the AI age. He gives a bunch of advice for

AI age. He gives a bunch of advice for salespeople and the future of their careers. the future of the goto market

careers. the future of the goto market org, how to win as an AI startup right now, what tools he's finding most useful, what it took to shift a sales team, and so much more. This episode is

going to get your mind spinning in the best way possible. If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube. It helps tremendously.

And if you become an annual subscriber of my newsletter, you get 19 premium products for free for an entire year, including a year free of lovable, replet bolt naden gamma linear

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pass. With that, I bring you Jason Lenin

pass. With that, I bring you Jason Lenin after a short word from our sponsors.

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Jason, thank you so much for being here and welcome back to the podcast.

>> Lucky to be a super fan and then to get to join, right? It's it's it's terrific to to to be on the other side.

>> So, this is our second conversation. Uh

we did our last conversation a year and a half ago. I don't know if you know this, but it became a pretty legendary episode. It's something people continue

episode. It's something people continue to share. And uh that conversation is

to share. And uh that conversation is around basically a deep dive into building your sales or >> and a lot has changed >> yes >> for you and the world since then uh

cough AI >> and what uh what's happened is you've gone extremely deep on what AI enables for sales for startups for go to market and what I love about conversations like

this is you're basically living in the future and you're here to give us a glimpse of where things are heading and tell us how avoid the wrong turns and just help us get there ourselves.

>> That I think I can do >> to start. Yes. Help us understand just the business you run this uh SAS.

>> Uh what is it you sell? What is the business? What is it? What is it you do?

business? What is it? What is it you do?

Jason, >> you know, I'm still trying to figure it out, Lenny. Maybe you are too in some

out, Lenny. Maybe you are too in some ways. Um

ways. Um >> yeah, that's true. So, you know, I I I am a two-time founder who started writing a blog, my god, in 2012 about all the mistakes I made after I sold my

startup to Adobe.

We started doing a couple meetups.

You've done meetups. Um, before anyone did this stuff, we did a big meetup in 2015. Thousands of people came. Then we

2015. Thousands of people came. Then we

do 10,000 people a year at Saster Annual. I've actually also invested

Annual. I've actually also invested almost $200 million almost 10x lifetime um only into founders from the community. Um but the reason I don't

community. Um but the reason I don't know is what I folks that do are connected to our content. I'm just

passionate about helping other founders see mistakes and make less of them. So

anyhow, we're we're a large community. I

do invest but but it turned into a business. There was no revenue in the

business. There was no revenue in the beginning. I'm sure there was no revenue

beginning. I'm sure there was no revenue for for Lenny in the beginning and ours was less intentional, but we do do eight figures of revenue a year and it's work.

It's it's that sounds great, okay, to do eight figures, but there's a lot of costs, especially on the event side. The

media side has almost no costs and it's work. We have a hundred sponsors and as

work. We have a hundred sponsors and as you know, like you have sponsors, but there's a certain level where it becomes a lot of work. Like getting two folks to sponsor your podcast with a couple emails, no work, right? Uh if you wanted

to have like four Lenny podcast, like it just it just scales. So we have built our own go to market team over time and I've lived the frustrations folks have followed it and then maybe I'm rambling a little bit the interesting thing the

aha moment that happened to us is going into May of this year we had one AI agent in production called Deli that we both use for digital lending and digital Jason really interesting learnings and

we went into our 10,000 person event this year with with an eight you know a seven figure budget and eight figure topline and two folks on the sales team who are were paid high end of market I have many flaws, but paying well and

being loyal are not one of them. And two

of them just quit at the event. They

just quit on site. Okay. And I this is like the third time I've done this, like the eighth team I've built. And and I turned to Amelia, our chief a officer, and I said, "We're done with hiring humans in sales. We're done. We are

going to push the limits with agents.

We're going to p even if it doesn't quite work." Okay? And I knew from this

quite work." Okay? And I knew from this deli, this general agent, that it would sort of work because going into annual, this general agent, this digital Jason closed a 70k sponsorship on its own. So

when I saw that a horizontal agent, not trained for sales, not trained for GTM, could close one deal, like let's deploy a couple of these apps. We have time and

I just can't pay a junior SDR $150,000 a year to quit. I just can't like criticize me, but I just couldn't do it one more time. I just couldn't do it one more. And I actually think this is an

more. And I actually think this is an when I talk to CEOs at leading AI companies, they kind of don't want to do it either. They want to have the

it either. They want to have the smallest sales teams they can as much for cultural reasons, right? Even if

even if Replet only goes from zero to 200, it could have been 220 with a smaller sales team. I think John's okay with it, right? So, it's an enduring thing. But anyhow, so we push the limits

thing. But anyhow, so we push the limits and now if you walk into SAS's office, it's kind of funny. We have 10 desks that used to be go to market people.

They're all just labeled with our agents. Reply for replet, quali for

agents. Reply for replet, quali for qualified, arty for artisan. Agent Force

needs a nickname. Maybe we can make one up with Salesforce. There's Amelia's

corner office at one end. I'm in the I'm in the back of the office and it's just agents. It's the quietest office. And

agents. It's the quietest office. And

netnet Lenny, it's about here's the metalarning for when we when we're recording this. The pro the net

recording this. The pro the net productivity is about the same. It's not

better. It's not worse. Um, but it's so much more efficient and it scales because software scales.

So, and uh we can talk about what we've learned. I think it's important that it

learned. I think it's important that it takes time to train these agents. They

don't work out of the box. Um, but when you dial them in, when you take your best person or your best script and you train an agent with your best person and best script, that agent can start to

become a version of your best salesperson, your best person. And

that's what we've learned and how to perfect it. And I just think because and

perfect it. And I just think because and criticize me, anybody, you or anyone watching or listening, maybe it's not cool. I didn't want to hire my 28th rep

cool. I didn't want to hire my 28th rep that was going to quit that. But I just couldn't do it one more time in the age of AI. I'm like, it's time to go to the

of AI. I'm like, it's time to go to the bleeding edge and just see what we can push the limits here.

>> Okay. I I I love all the directions we're already heading. Okay. So just to help people totally understand what your business is. Basically these people are

business is. Basically these people are selling sponsors for your conference is >> they're selling two things to because it's just relevant to the deep dive.

They're selling sponsorships which average about 70 to 80k >> and then they're also selling tickets which is the high volume for this is like the the self-s serve version.

They're selling tickets that are anywhere from a couple hundred bucks to if you're a VC that comes the night before could be two grand. Okay. No no

no gifts for VCs that decide the night before. founders that decide early get

before. founders that decide early get get it at about 10 20% of cost and and and it's work to sell these tickets, right? And so you can just post an email

right? And so you can just post an email like you do and you probably fill up Lenny Summit, but if you want to max it out, you got to do work. You got to do drip campaigns. You got to reach out to

drip campaigns. You got to reach out to people. You have to reactivate folks

people. You have to reactivate folks that came to Lenny Summit, you know, three years ago, but you want them back because they're good people. And that

just requires work. And as your base scales, you know, you have how many people subscribe to Lenny's newsletter now? 1.2 two million or something.

now? 1.2 two million or something.

>> 1.2 million roughly.

>> Okay. How many as how many of those is a human willing to reach out to >> approaching nuns?

>> 2,000. Yeah.

>> Imagine you hired a 21-year-old SDR fresh out of junior college and said, "Here's my list, 1.2 million people.

Start calling them.

>> I want him to come to Lenny Summit." But

anyhow, so we have this low-end version, which is tickets, right? Which is four or five million a year. And then we have this higherend sales cycle. And they're

very different. And actually, they have different agents. And then we have a

different agents. And then we have a different agent to get people to come back. Laps people. So we have lapsed

back. Laps people. So we have lapsed high-end and low-end agents. And they

have different workflows and we actually use different vendors for now. For now

we use different vendors.

>> Okay. And so uh previously before this future world, how many SDRs did you have? How many salespeople in the

have? How many salespeople in the >> We would have two to three SDRs and up to five AES.

>> Okay. So like eight, nine people full-time working on Saster. Yes. to

bring in sponsors and to bring in tickets.

>> Yes. Although yes, a lot of it is inbound and renewals but not but yes to manage that business to manage the sales management and go to market. Let's call

it 8 to9 and go to market. Now we have 1.2 >> uh 1.2 >> humans >> human 1.2 humans >> 20 agents AI agents

>> 1 point what is a 0.2 human?

>> Amelia who's our chief a officer who who runs everything. She spends 20% of her

runs everything. She spends 20% of her time managing the agents, orchestrating the agents.

>> Okay.

>> Which is something I think people don't Let's get into that. They talk about, but they don't actually understand what that means.

>> Yeah. Okay. I definitely want to spend time there. Uh Okay. So, you used to

time there. Uh Okay. So, you used to have about 10 people full-time. Now you

have 1.2 humans and you said 20 agents.

>> 20 agents. Yeah.

>> Okay. And what you're describing is the business is doing very similarly to what it was when you had 10 humans. Now you

have 20 agents. The business doing the same.

>> Yeah. Now listen, if I had two more great humans that wanted to join, don't get me wrong, and this is true of every fast, I would hire them tomorrow, okay?

And and if you go if you go to Verscell, if you go to Replet, if you go to they're all going to tell you the same.

I was literally in London when we were just at our abundant event. We with with Maggie who's in the leadership of OpenAI. She said they just can't hire

OpenAI. She said they just can't hire enough enterprise reps now. Okay. And

but what what it is replacing are the midpack and below. The ones that don't really understand what linear does. The

ones that don't really know what a pull request is or exactly how replet works.

The AI can do better. Not than the best, right? So I would love to have more

right? So I would love to have more humans, but I'm not going to hire someone that after their third month in the job doesn't know what Saster does. I

just can't do that one more time. And

you don't need to. I don't think you need to. So we're not doing This is the

need to. So we're not doing This is the thing. AI is replacing the jobs people

thing. AI is replacing the jobs people don't want to do today and it is displacing the media the midpack and the mediocre. They are their jobs are at

mediocre. They are their jobs are at risk. They are at risk. The best humans

risk. They are at risk. The best humans it is true that they will get superpowers from AI but I'm not sure the rest will. It's a it's a cautionary but

rest will. It's a it's a cautionary but I would love to have more than one but at the end of the day and 1.2 humans is plus 20 AI agents is doing about what 10 human GTMs is.

>> Wow. Okay. I want to spend time on the different agents you've built, but first of all, just kind of zooming out, having gone through this experience. How do you see the world of go to market changing

next year in the coming years? All the

plays work. It's the playbooks that are kind of broken in the age of AI. All the

plays work. Outbound still works.

Webinar still works. Podcasts still

work. Okay. Events still work. All this

stuff works. All this stuff works. Why

is 11 Labs out doing a road show, right?

It works. Why? Why do they go on Lenny's podcast? It works. So, the plays all

podcast? It works. So, the plays all work. It's just the playbooks are broken

work. It's just the playbooks are broken because at at for folks that aren't in the age of AI, growth has decelerated so much that nothing seems to work. Okay,

it's working. It just works so much worse than 2021, but the plays still work. They just they don't have enough

work. They just they don't have enough ROI. There's not enough budget for old

ROI. There's not enough budget for old school SAS from 2021. the ones that are blowing up, right? The Verscels, the Replets, the 11 Labs, they have so much

demand, so much demand that, you know, that they're still running the plays, but they're they're doing them differently.

They're doing them from a hyper PLG focus because there's so much demand and they're often picking and choosing which prospects to talk to to to contact. So,

like, for example, Bolt is probably a distant number three behind Rep and Lovable, right? But one of my old sales

Lovable, right? But one of my old sales guys runs sales there. And I talked to him when they went from 0 to 50 million in like six months. He's like, "We honestly just have so many leads. We

just are half our job is picking which ones to respond to, right?" And he's like, and he also is

right?" And he's like, and he also is like, "We closed a seven figure deal we stole from Lovable because no one called them back at lovable." So your traditional B2B SAS company, even ones at billions of revenue, even the

HubSpots and the and and and uh all of them, they don't have so many great leads, they don't call them back. So

that is a different world um not easy different world and then this this world where nothing seems to be working is just because the demand has evaporated right so

both ends have an incentive in 2026 to push the limits for AI for go to market the ones that are hyperrowing can't touch everybody they can't do everything not everyone like Versell will build

their own internally we can talk about why most folks should not build they should buy for the same reasons it's always been true in software or we can talk about it. At the low end, you still need humans, but ruthless efficiency is

going to be the name of the game for 2026. So, anything where AI works, the

2026. So, anything where AI works, the demand is inexhaustible. So, everyone's

either looking for more efficiency or they just can't service the massive amount of inbound they have. Um, and so maybe that doesn't totally answer your question or I got a little bit off track, but that's how the world's

changing. Like, when we first did this,

changing. Like, when we first did this, which wasn't that long ago, in a way, pre the AI explosion, all B2B companies were kind of the same. like they grew at somewhat different rates. Some blew up

faster like a Samsara. Some took longer like a UiPath, but come on. They were

all they all kind of grew the same way for the same ACV for the same deal size.

Now, just like in venture and everything else, it's wildly bifurcated, right?

You've got the low end, which is all about price increases and forcing things onto the base. And at the high end, we have something we've never seen since 2020, which is everyone in the market at once.

Everyone in the market at once. This is

something that people don't understand.

Why why are why are these companies doing so well? Why are they blowing up?

Because they're it's not just at the software. We we love this stuff, Lenny,

software. We we love this stuff, Lenny, right? All these new tools. We love

right? All these new tools. We love

them. But it's not one law firm looking at Harvey. It's everyone. It's everyone,

at Harvey. It's everyone. It's everyone,

right? It's not a few folks looking at video on the internet. It's everyone

trying to make video on the internet >> because there's a lot of push from the top of like we need to adopt AI. We need

to be more productive. Now, everyone,

not the traditional, like the traditional metric was in most categories, 3 to 5% of prospects would be in market a year.

>> So, you'd send a trillion emails and you do cold calls and you'd hope maybe 2026 was the time they're willing to dump Salesforce for your new product. So, add

all that up, 5%. In many categories, we're north of 50% in market.

So, that just totally changes. The plays

still work. showing up in person, actually knowing what the hell you're selling, knowing how to get through procurement, all of those are work. But

other than these weird windows, artificial windows in 2020, we've never had so many people in market at once.

>> And this is for AI products specifically or >> Yeah. that that have massive ROI.

>> Yeah. that that have massive ROI.

>> Yeah. Productivity.

>> I want I I need to bring a Vibe Code tool into my company, Lenny. Okay. Go

out and do the work. Compare Replet,

Lovable, and whoever else and buy one.

Okay. Harve like why are Harvey and the others in Lagora doing so? I mean

they're great tools but everyone's like we need to automate how we review contracts and documents with AI now.

They want a leader and they're going to do it and that will slow down like not everybody can be in market every year.

It it's exhausts an enterprise. So this

this is a version of the AI bubble that will end and we will revert in some ways to old school but when everybody's in market it just it just changes how you run the whole thing. So the so the fastest growing ones and the slowest

growing ones both have incentives to use AI here just for different reasons.

>> How about the sales profession specifically? Are SDRs going to be

specifically? Are SDRs going to be replaced fully AES? How do you see the future of the sales profession?

>> The classic SDR junior kid that is hired out of college to send emails and respond to respond to inbound emails and maybe get

back to them later that day or the next day. We don't need them. We're not going

day. We don't need them. We're not going to need most of them. SDRs that knock on doors in a lot of industries aren't going to be displaced, right? The

emailbased cadence SDR will be 90% displaced by AI next year. The people

have different nomclature. I call BDRs, folks that qualify leads coming in. The

contact mess that we see, we have no need for them today. They should be extinct next year. There is no reason in the age of AI I have to hit contact me, wait two a day or two for a 21-year-old

that doesn't know what linear does to say, "Hey, what do you do? How much are you willing to pay me? Maybe I'll set up a call with Lenny later this week."

There is no need to do that with AI. The

AI, our AI alone, one of our agent fully qualifies everybody on the website so they don't even know they're being qualified. It just sets up the meeting

qualified. It just sets up the meeting with the salesperson. So this SDR, this email-based SDR and this human qualifying leads, which is not good for the customer. It doesn't feel good to be

the customer. It doesn't feel good to be qualified, does it? They will be mostly extinct next year. I'm guessing with your now the AE, the classic human doing

the sales, most of the tools aren't there yet for the most part. I think 70% of their jobs will be safe by the end of next year, but I think it will decline

to 40 or 50. I don't think there's any reason what we're seeing in other categories, a great agent can't close a deal too. If there's not a lot to

deal too. If there's not a lot to negotiate in price and the agent knows the product better than a human, at least for folks like you and me. I mean,

do you like to talk to a human in sales >> sometimes? Uh I'd rather I'd rather just

>> sometimes? Uh I'd rather I'd rather just chat chat with a Yeah. a really smart AI.

>> Yeah. So, that's all in progress now.

But the classic and the tough part and a lot of folks ask this question, Lenny, they say, um, okay, Jason, I I see that in your data. How are we going to build the sales profession if there's no

entry-level jobs in SDRs and AES? And

that's a meta question across all of AI.

We're already seeing AI concentrate strength in sort of mid-tier folks, isn't it? And we're already seeing lots

isn't it? And we're already seeing lots of folks cut back on entry-level hires, you know, Shopify and others aside, where they'd rather have the six or seveny old engineer that's a cursor machine rather than train some kid. It's

just more efficient today, right? I'm

sure you see that across a lot of folks you talk to. It's gonna happen in sales, too. So the folks that know how to

too. So the folks that know how to manage an agent, work with an agent, the folks that know their product for real, they're going to become more valuable and the rest are going to become less valuable.

>> It's interesting because I'm an investor in a bunch of startups as are you and I'm actually seeing a lot of asks for go to market people, sales people. Do you

think this is kind of a temporary because there's so much demand, they're like, "Oh, we need people to help and then this will start to become more AI over time or are they just looking for these really senior people that you're talking about?" Well, listen, whether

talking about?" Well, listen, whether you're managing humans or orchestrating agents, you need leadership.

We've yet to produce an autonomous CEO.

I know folks talk about how on on Twitter that will AI will replace the CEO, but I don't know that that's literal as much as figurative, right?

So, we're still going to need the seuite. We're still going to need VPs. I

seuite. We're still going to need VPs. I

mean, it's become so much work to manage a million leads, right? A half million leads. We we need these leaders whether

leads. We we need these leaders whether the the question is and I've seen your call out there and I saw your tweet on it. The question is how many of the

it. The question is how many of the folks that had the current playbooks are the right folks for the future. I'm

thinking maybe 20%. of the folks I talked to 20 for are still panicking about AI and and I'll tell you how to not how to be in the 20% if you want to know but I think very few like the

Janine from Verscell are going to make the jump so we'll see there will be huge organizations right like Denise just went from Slack and Salesforce after 14 years to be CRO open AAI she's working

going to be pretty high level right so she may not know how to need to know how to implement the agents but most of the folks your companies want to hire I would just make sure they could they

really want to roll up their sleeves and do the job of 2026 2027, right? Um just

because they worked at Slack does not necessarily mean they have the skills at your startup.

>> You said that you had some tips for folks to actually be this 20%. What are

some If someone's listening to this like, "Oh man, my job is in trouble.

What should I focus on?"

>> It's going to sound simple. It will work and most almost nobody's doing this.

Pick a tool, an agent, an agentic tool to solve one of your problems. It doesn't almost m just one that's the most painful or the one that's most acute. It could be support. It could be

acute. It could be support. It could be SDR. It could be inbound qualification.

Pick one. Pick a leading vendor. I don't

care which one it is. Okay? We can talk about how to pick a vendor, but pick a leading vendor that treats you well that you like and do it yourself.

Train the agent. Ingest the data. Do the

iterations. Understand how this damn thing works. Okay. The folks that are

thing works. Okay. The folks that are lost today have never done it. We

literally we've turned into a consulting shop. Lenny, it's kind of crazy. I I

shop. Lenny, it's kind of crazy. I I

don't know what I think about it, but we literally just did a job. Amelia, our

chief A officer, and and Mia, she she she drove it. We did a call with a public B2B company worth well over 10 billion that you would think is an AI leader. Okay? Okay. And we did a call

leader. Okay? Okay. And we did a call with their team and they're like, "We're strugg."

strugg." Okay. One, no chance. Two, we asked

Okay. One, no chance. Two, we asked them, "How much of this have you done yourself?" Like, "Have you have you done

yourself?" Like, "Have you have you done it yourself?" And it was just crickets

it yourself?" And it was just crickets on this call of 20 people. No one had done it theirel. So, they thought they could take an untrained agent with no training and just magically give it to a bunch of young 20-year-old SDRs and and

this magically would sell on its own. It

doesn't work that way, right? So, the

way all these agents work is you there's a lot of jargon which is intimidating.

Ingestion, orchestration, training. It's

not that hard, guys. It's just

different. It's the same B2B stuff we've been doing for over a decade. You go to a website, okay? You give it a URL of your website. You give it a URL of what

your website. You give it a URL of what your wiki is. You give it a URL of your training docs. Maybe you upload your

training docs. Maybe you upload your perspectus. You upload a few documents.

perspectus. You upload a few documents.

It ingests the data. And ingesting means it uploads.

It means it processes the data and it does some other stuff you don't really need to know. Some ragging, some vectoring, it really doesn't matter. You

you upload some stuff and it kind of knows it and isn't great at it. And then

it will turn it into ideally it will turn it into questions and you answer these questions and it they will be get the more you answer and train it.

Training is just answering questions and getting better and better. So, first you upload a bunch of your stuff. Then you

spend hours training it, often with the help of a vendor, someone called a forward deploy engineer, which is a scary term. It means someone that's

scary term. It means someone that's going to help you do this. You upload

your stuff, you try to get it right, and then you basically have to make sure it's right. QA testing. And every day

it's right. QA testing. And every day when that AISDR sends out emails and do practice emails, they will say some dumb things. Maybe it's hallucinations. It

things. Maybe it's hallucinations. It

really doesn't matter what the technical term is and you correct it and each and if you do this for 30 days and every day you spend an hour or two correcting

those mistakes by the 30th day it's going to be pretty good and this is anyone can do this that has been in B2B or SAS anyone can do what I just described it is not that different than other things we've done it's just

sequenced differently but nobody does this everyone's panicked and if you if you can go do this pick any tool pick pick uh agent force pick qualified pick artisan pick whatever you want If you can go do this and get it live into

production, you're hyper employable. All

the companies you talked about that need a GTM person, they will hire you. You

could be imaginally be their chief agentic GTM officer because but almost anyone can do this if they want to. It's

just going to take a month of your time and it might take you 50 or 60 hours plus qualifying the vendor, right? And

in the old days, like when we diverted our podcast, you'd hire an agency and disappear. That's how you do this stuff.

disappear. That's how you do this stuff.

Don't It don't work that. The agencies

don't know how to do this. you've got to do it yourself. But if you do, man, you will rock. You will just you will just

will rock. You will just you will just rock and you will learn, right? You will

learn um and you will learn the limits and you will learn the agent can what it can do and where it can't do. And then

you will learn how to do the next one, right? So like we're pretty far on agent

right? So like we're pretty far on agent force, which is Salesforce's one, which Mark talks a lot about, but we're we're probably one of the only organizations of our size on it. I will tell you a cheat code which is pretty interesting.

So, we've got we had three of these agents working for sales.

After training it and learning it and spending months time to learn it, we got it down to one prompt. And prompt is another almost intimidating word. A

string of text that describes what you want this thing to do. Okay? We took

that prompt and gave it to agent force.

Then a day was pretty good. So, you will if you can do one of these, it'll be really hard. It'll be brutal. Then the

really hard. It'll be brutal. Then the

second one will be easier. And then

you're going to be like the master of the universe in AI if you can do it yourself. But if you're waiting for

yourself. But if you're waiting for people on your team to do it, if you're waiting for an agency to do it, I think you're going to be out of a job.

Right? So this is like everyone comes to us as an experts. We're not we're only experts because we did it 20 times.

>> I think what might be helpful here actually is to do a a tour kind of a quick tour of the agents that you've built and what they do, which ones have been most impactful. And then as you do that, what products you use, what what

powers these agents that that you like and maybe don't like. If any if anyone goes to saster.ai/agents,

we'll you'll see everything we built.

It's all bulleted out. You can copy us and I'll walk you through it. But two

two caveats or things at the top. I

built a lot of stuff in Replet. We can

talk about it for fun. I'm like a top 1% user. I love it. None of the GTM stuff

user. I love it. None of the GTM stuff we built ourselves. Don't build it yourself. You're not Versel. You don't

yourself. You're not Versel. You don't

have a full-time wicked awesome engineer that wants to build this. Could all this stuff be built yourself? It's the same idea of building your own notion. You

could do it, but don't do it. It's these

products are expensive. They're not so expensive. It's worth and then

expensive. It's worth and then maintaining the pace of innovation is so fast. Even if you can hire someone to

fast. Even if you can hire someone to build it internally, it will become obsolete if you're not careful in a couple months. So, we've built a lot of

couple months. So, we've built a lot of stuff. We could talk about um uh I we I

stuff. We could talk about um uh I we I built a a calculator to do startup calculations, used 800,000 times in 90 days >> for valuation, right?

>> Yeah. For valuations. I built a pitch deck reviewer that's reviewed almost 3,000 pitch decks. Lots of fun stuff, but none of the GTM stuff we built ourselves. None of it. So, just a

ourselves. None of it. So, just a caveat, don't build it yourself unless you're Verscell, unless you have a reason. That was a great pod. It was

reason. That was a great pod. It was

wonderful. Don't do it. Don't do that.

>> Basically, if unless you have a awesome go to market engineers >> for and they really want to do it.

They're really are chomping at the bit to do it. Um, don't do it. So, I started and this is not where other folks would start, but there's some learnings. I

started there's an app called Deli, which makes digital clones. And, um, you used it for the Lenny bot a long time ago. I saw you do it. What's that? Yeah.

ago. I saw you do it. What's that? Yeah.

Lenny.com. Yeah. Check that out.

>> I saw it a long time ago. It was

interesting, but I I I did it didn't click. And then Brian Halligan, who's

click. And then Brian Halligan, who's the founder chairman of HubSpot, did one too. Uh there's Sequoia backed and he

too. Uh there's Sequoia backed and he was working at Sequoia, so he helped them early on. And then I kind of had a magic moment and this is the way it works in AI when I saw the combination of the two. So yours was really like people should love moneybot because it's

got it's if folks haven't tried it, try it. It is ingested. I know a scary term

it. It is ingested. I know a scary term for some. It is ingested every single

for some. It is ingested every single interview you've ever done, right? Every

word of content you've written. So, and

it can combine them all together. It can

combine the Verscell story and the and and and and uh what what you did with at with Dylan at Figma and can synthesize the knowledge and it's pretty good. It's

pretty good. What I liked about Brian's better than yours though was that it was Brian and Lennybot is kind of Lenny, but it's also kind of all your guess, right?

I think that's the superpower of it, right? That's the way I think about it

right? That's the way I think about it is not just my intelligence. It's the

the lessons of every single person I've had on this podcast.

>> So, it's great. But, I thought, hey, maybe I could finally do one that's that's in between the two. Like I I've been a founder and I and I've written 10,000 pieces of content. So, that's a little bit like Brian, but I have more than Brian and I'm not Lenny in terms of

productivity, but I've got a lot of voices. So, I'm like, I'll try it. I

voices. So, I'm like, I'll try it. I

used Deli. I instantly broke it because I had too much data to ingest. It took

about a week to get going. Um, and it worked. people and it's just like you

worked. people and it's just like you people some people spend hours a day on digital JSON in another browser and they don't do what they do with Lenny but they'll they'll ask about their sales wos and what to do with their sales team and they'll and they'll upload LinkedIn

and ask if they should hire people and then a curious thing happened which is that because we do these events people started to use it for questions for the events hey how do I get a refund hey can I get a discount hey where is

the Sanonteo County Fairgrounds Jason Liz is really in the San Francisco Bay area like who's speaking or and and like there's endless questions Right. And we

used to use prefin intercom and we're so busy we would answer like two weeks later like it was ter worst support ever and the the agent just started doing support on its own

and then it did this thing where it sold sponsorship on its own right so so start you can start with so one place to start if you haven't started is in support

okay and you don't have to buy Sierra and you don't have to buy decacon necessarily and you don't have to buy Finn but one potential place to start is is your support like can you do great

24/7 support? Can you most most apps

24/7 support? Can you most most apps can't in fact some of the worst offenders are AI leaders they they have no support at all on their website. So

that's one place to start. Um and then the next place we started so for us the long game for the next place we started is hey we want to try outbound. Okay

because we don't have 1.2 million names like you have but we have like 400,000.

Okay. And we have data on them. So we

wanted to say hey come come back to our SAT event. So we didn't know what to use

SAT event. So we didn't know what to use and I'll tell you some learning. So we

picked a YC company called Artisan.

They've gone like from like nothing to 10 million this year. Um we picked them but this is important why they were at they were a sponsor at Saster. We didn't

know and they offered to help us the most. This is the critical insight. We

most. This is the critical insight. We

didn't know if Artisan was the I have opinions now. We hadn't deployed them

opinions now. We hadn't deployed them but another vendor argued with us. He

said I need 100K up front before I help you. Okay. Another one said they were

you. Okay. Another one said they were scared of Saster. They didn't want bad PR if it failed. Fair.

>> Oh, be Yeah, certain company.

>> We don't want to be your first. Okay.

And Artisan said, "We'll do it." And uh we had nothing. And here's the interesting thing about Agentic stuff.

It's like support. If you have nothing, like it doesn't have to like change the world. If you're literally doing nothing

world. If you're literally doing nothing and you start to do something that's high ROI, like you're going to get return, right? So, we did that one. We

return, right? So, we did that one. We

trained it. It's great. We did about 60,000 emails. Um saw pretty high rates.

60,000 emails. Um saw pretty high rates.

Um then we said, well, we'll try inbound. We like we don't want to have

inbound. We like we don't want to have this depressing experience where a salesperson quits and it's two weeks later until they talk to. So we used this vendor called Qualified, which was founded by the XMO of Salesforce that

does a lot now, but mostly focus on qualified stuff. That immediately

qualified stuff. That immediately worked. Like we had someone at 11 p.m.

worked. Like we had someone at 11 p.m.

on Saturday night that wanted to sponsor and they sponsored and it worked and it and it worked great. Um, but again they helped us >> and this is an agent that is emailing with prospects selling them on a sponsor.

>> Well, it's literally if you go to sasterannual.com and anyone should buy a product like this. It doesn't have to be qualified but but and they'll be the bubble the intercom like bubble is tuned to to qualifying inbound prospects.

Folks that say, "Hey, I want to sponsor Lenny's podcast. Sorry, we're sold out

Lenny's podcast. Sorry, we're sold out through 2028, but if you want to be on the wait list, sign up here, okay?"

Okay. Or or even better for us, it would qualify folks out that weren't a good fit, right? It would save so much time

fit, right? It would save so much time and it would do it 24 hours, then it would just set up the meeting. So, the

reason that was a great second one was because no one was willing to do that.

No human was willing to pick up the phone and talk to these people. So, it

was such lowhanging fruit. Um, but the key to the first two and and if you're going to pick an agent is they they offered to help the most. You're I at

the end of the day, Lenny, these are all running on cloud 4. They're all

basically using a bunch of APIs mashed together. That's not new to software,

together. That's not new to software, right? Mashing a bunch of APIs under the

right? Mashing a bunch of APIs under the hood. But deep down, I don't want to get

hood. But deep down, I don't want to get anybody trigger anybody. Many of these leader the leaders in AI GTM, they're more similar than different. They're

more similar than different under the hood. It doesn't mean the features are

hood. It doesn't mean the features are are parody. So, because you have to

are parody. So, because you have to train them because it takes a month, the world's best software with no help training you is not one 99% of people

should buy. So today in the old days we

should buy. So today in the old days we would qualify the best software. We

would make a matrix and we would do their thing and we would compare features and do it. You got to do another column which is your forward deployed engineer or solution architecture your SE and talk to them and say who is going to help me and

before you write a check get on the phone with Lenny and see if Lenny's really going to do deployment and if Lenny rocks and the other vendor is better and won't help you don't do it.

And that's why we've had so much success is the first two we did. Yeah, they were startups, right? So they worked harder,

startups, right? So they worked harder, but Artisan and Qualified just did the work with us. And we're not stupid, but it was work. We needed help, right? And

so that's what I learned is you you have this partner, the FD and the vendor. And

um and a lot of them actually might not take your business if they don't think they can help you. The best ones turn away a lot of business today, which is interesting, right? An interesting

interesting, right? An interesting learning from this for folks is um a lot of folks say and they would say it to you if you use these lender they say you have too much data. Saster is not like

us. We're a startup. We're tiny. You

us. We're a startup. We're tiny. You

have 400,000 people in your database.

Lenny has 1.2 million. It's not like that's I I got I I I only have 300 customers. Okay. Or 200 customers. What

customers. Okay. Or 200 customers. What

I've learned is um that's wrong. If you have 300 customers,

that's wrong. If you have 300 customers, how many folks have come to your website ever? 30,000. How many leads do you

ever? 30,000. How many leads do you have? How many folks in your database?

have? How many folks in your database?

How many folks have you tried to reach out before? More than a human's doing.

out before? More than a human's doing.

And then they all of a sudden they have the aha moment like, "How many folks do you have in your HubSpot?" Right? How

many folks do you have in your CRM? They

look it up. 31,000. Okay. How many folks do you have talking to them? Zero. You

don't need the scale of numbers that you and I have to make these agents work.

You need you need a little bit of scale and you need a little bit of traffic, but not as much as you think. So all the learnings we have a lot of folks that honestly they don't want to do the work.

They're like well Saster has a lot of scale. They have a lot of years. It's

scale. They have a lot of years. It's

not true. And it turns out to also be like true with the training. I'm sure

you've seen it with Lenny. Like I

thought having 12 years of content made the difference. Nah. It's having like a

the difference. Nah. It's having like a couple months of really good content and a long tail beyond that. But you don't need as deep training and as much as you think. You just need a bit to be really

think. You just need a bit to be really good. So anyone that has any scale

good. So anyone that has any scale whatsoever, even a couple million revenue and up can benefit from these products, right? So we did hor general

products, right? So we did hor general general bot got us to a certain place.

Then we did SDR then for outbound then we did inbound and then we did agent force really early with Salesforce and we didn't know what to do with agent force at first, right? Um but we decided

we would reactivate the folks that sales decide was not worth their time.

folks that reached out to sales. And

this is true at every startup. We even

just talked about some of the AI leaders where a human says, "You know what? I

don't think this is enough commission.

I'm kind of busy. I got a $4 million deal with meta going." We just took Asian Force just on those. Okay. And we

trained it on very similar prompt. It

had 70% response rate.

Those are people that were dying to interact with us.

70% is so good at and this is something humans were not willing to do. It wasn't

worth their time. And I know this sounds critical and maybe I'm going to trigger some sales folks. But the reality is if you know if you're in a lead rich environment, okay, and there and I I I think there's lead rich and lead poor

environments for for even big companies, but startups like there's not enough.

But you eventually you become lead rich, okay? Reps just don't follow up with a

okay? Reps just don't follow up with a lot of them. It's just human nature.

It's even you. I bet more folks want to sponsor the newsletter than you can let in, right? Do you hum Do you pick up the

in, right? Do you hum Do you pick up the phone with all of them?

>> Uh I reply to all of them and then we just sell them. We're we're full. But

>> yeah, but you see the point, right? Even

your scale, you see the point, right?

>> Yeah. Yeah. It gets challenging.

>> Um and let's imagine all of a sudden you had six months of inventory available. I

bet if you spooled up an agent and emailed all those folks back automatically, you'd fill up you'd fill up the docket, right? Mhm.

>> So, anyone can do these sorts of You think you can't um unless you're so small >> that you have sufficient humans to talk with every potential lead, every person that touches your website, every person

that clicks with anything, you can benefit from AI.

So, that was kind of our journey and then we've done a lot of other niche stuff. I'll tell you at the end that the

stuff. I'll tell you at the end that the where we are today this is a maybe this is almost too much learning is we're at the point where maybe we can't do one more

because right now when we when we did deli in the beginning when I copied you with deli even me I spent almost an hour a day training it in the beginning because when we started to use it for

support it had an initial it started telling people the wrong dates okay and we could talk about why so I had to fix it and it made some mistakes and so when people started to use it I had to spend an hour each morning firing up Deli

reviewing the issues and answering them.

I don't have to do it anymore. It's well

trained. Um we have so many agents going in so many emails that Amelia has to spend, you know, 10 to 15 hours a week reviewing the outputs and it's exhausting because agents work all night and they work weekends and they work on

Christmas.

It's a big issue, right? This is not being the orchestrator or the chief AI person is not a good job for lazy people because the agents never sleep, right?

So it is so much time now to manage these 20. This is just interesting. We

these 20. This is just interesting. We

can't I don't know when we're going to do the 21st. We may be full. And for

folks that are startups, this is a reason to go harder because everyone was in market this year. Okay, everyone. And it's going to

year. Okay, everyone. And it's going to keep happening. But business process

keep happening. But business process change remains an issue for business software. Business process change at the

software. Business process change at the end of the day. And so many founders get this wrong. And 99% of sales folks, they

this wrong. And 99% of sales folks, they don't care about business process change. in sales works, they just want

change. in sales works, they just want to get their commission. Doesn't really

matter what you pay for an app for for a customer as long as it's fair. It's all

the work to do to change the way you do your business, right? And so we're even we're at the point where we're overloaded, right? And so just be aware

overloaded, right? And so just be aware if you're if you're a startup or even Salesforce or HubSpot, maybe maybe close those deals in the next 12 months because the window may close where people say, "Listen, that's the coolest

agent I've ever seen. I'm exhausted from the last five. I had to do five last year. I just can't literally cannot

year. I just can't literally cannot bring one more app into my enterprise.

And so that's going to be a headwind that today everything seems like it has tailwinds, right? Everything's on fire.

tailwinds, right? Everything's on fire.

But people are going to get exhausted for having so many agents. Exhaust,

man. Okay. There's so much to to learn from in what you just shared. Something

I definitely want to ask about as people hear this uh agents sending off emails, agents talking to your clients. Uh we

get I get a ton of emails that are terrible.

>> Yes. H what have you learned about making these outbound emails good and not just you know noise? How do you make these conversations high quality? How do

you >> It's a really really really good question.

>> So the two maybe the two biggest learnings um take your best person on your sales team, the best marketer you have, take their email

copy and use that as a template for your AI. If you the the the the terrible

AI. If you the the the the terrible mistake people make people all everyone in 2024 said these products didn't work.

There were two reasons they didn't work.

It was before cloud 4, right? Replet

didn't work. Lovable didn't exist. Gamma

didn't really work before 2025, right?

Before CL like the LMS reached this point where they would work for these use cases. So that was one threshold.

use cases. So that was one threshold.

The other thing that happened in 2024 is the vendors kind of lied and said uh just turn the product on. It'll get you revenue. No no need to train it, no need

revenue. No no need to train it, no need to do anything. we'll just do everything as this magic AI savant. It's not it's not the way it works this way. What you

do is an a an agent will be successful in go to market in sales today. If you

take what works for your best person, train I know this seems like a scary term, but it's not. Upload that text.

Okay? Train the agent on it and let it iterate an AB test from that. Agents are

really good at AB testing. They're

really good at creating variants. AI

like you ask Claude or or chat for a variant of your best email. Say, "Give

me three versions of my best email."

They'll be pretty good. That's all the agent has to do is take your best email you ever sent and stick it through an API and go it's it's I I'm I'm making it sound simpler than it is, but but not by

too much. So train it and then what and

too much. So train it and then what and then what it'll do and then give it some data sources and the data source could be as simple as Salesforce.

Okay? And and and then if it has any data on Lenny, it can pull data and it can lightly personalize that email.

Okay? And even better, if a lot of these products track all the visitors to your website, so they can see what's happened and they use other APIs and so they can personalize your emails more. And so

what ends up happening is the emails that the AI write are pretty good. Okay?

If you're getting terrible emails, it's a poorly trained product from a bad vendor. You should be getting emails

vendor. You should be getting emails when you get them and you're like, "This isn't as good as Jason said on Lenny's podcast, but it's pretty good." Okay,

that's what AI can do today. And the

magic is if a human isn't even doing that or if your mediocre humans are worse. And I'll tell you, you know, one

worse. And I'll tell you, you know, one of the first lessons I learned when my last startup was acquired by Adobe. Sam

Blonde was one of our sales leaders.

Then he became CRO of Brex and others.

And he we inherited a bunch of reps from Adobe. We didn't ask for them. And he's

Adobe. We didn't ask for them. And he's

like, "My god, I never read everyone's emails before. These are the worst

emails before. These are the worst emails that I've ever read." So the AI can do better than that. the AI can do better than than that. And so you just train it on your best and it'll be

pretty good. And so so you just haven't

pretty good. And so so you just haven't seen a well-trained agent. And then what I learned and then another question folks ask is, "Okay, Jason, that email was pretty good. It wasn't as great as you said on stage, but it was pretty

good." But do you do you tell people

good." But do you do you tell people it's an AI or do you or do you hide it?

And what we learned from sending hundreds of thousands is it doesn't matter.

people. We're we're we're we're we're in an age where people don't really care as long as the email adds value and they know they're going to get an instant response. We've tried both. We've tried

response. We've tried both. We've tried

to say, "Hey, it's digital Amelia or digital Jason." We've tried to fake it.

digital Jason." We've tried to fake it.

And what we've learned is now we just send it. We We just send it and no one

send it. We We just send it and no one cares. And sometimes we'll get

cares. And sometimes we'll get especially founders will get an email back. They'll be like, "Haha, I can tell

back. They'll be like, "Haha, I can tell this is NI but it's pretty good. Can I

do a meeting?" That kind of says it all, doesn't it? Mhm. So, we're worrying

doesn't it? Mhm. So, we're worrying we're creating issues as excuses to not do the work.

>> Your point about how sale human sales people's emails are not great already is really powerful because all we're looking at is these okay emails from AI and you're saying okay but humans they're not actually that much better if

you actually look at them. My god,

they're not the be listen the best outbound emails you've ever gotten. Um

like for example, I know you've done a bunch of investments a lot of them are inbound to you. They want Lenny involved. Right.

involved. Right.

>> That's right.

>> Some of them are just so good you can't believe it. Right.

believe it. Right.

>> A few.

>> Yeah.

>> How many are that? But but a lot of them aren't. Right.

aren't. Right.

>> Right.

>> So like the best founders and the best sales execs and the best SDRs will spend two hours researching an email. Okay.

Who exactly did IBM should I reach out to? What did IM? Who else exactly is a

to? What did IM? Who else exactly is a competitor that's using them? Exactly

what was the ROI? They'll give you a perfect story. Like you get the world's

perfect story. Like you get the world's best story. Here's your competitor.

best story. Here's your competitor.

Here's how they use it. Here's exactly

when they bought. Here's the ROI. Here's

the case study. That's gonna that's a great email, right? How many 21-year-old STRs do that. No, they they use a to an automation tool whether it's Outreach or Gong or Salesoft or Mixmax or an AI

based, but they do no work. It's not

going to be that great. It's not going to be that great. So, that's why for for people get a little confused. The bar

for good enough for AI GTM is not as high as we think. It's just like uh you know a a fimile of your best person reproduced as best we can. It's going to beat your midpack person. It's going to

beat the person that literally knows nothing about your product.

>> Is this is this an opportunity for humans to continue to thrive this layer of much better emails. Uh this came up when we had Jen Ael on the podcast. She

I asked her like what tools do you use?

What do you use? She's like nothing. I

just write it out artisally. Uh and it works really well because everyone's sending AI emails. Is this just like where go to market sales people still can exist that's much better email or is

that also >> for for if you have a high performing human team hunting high dollar value logos and when this is classic stuff

Lenny and I and Jen are in a in a conference room we put a whiteboard of the 50 best folks that we want to sponsor Lenny's podcast there's only 50 okay and we write notion and we write linear and we write rap there's only 50

it's a and we're all trying to sell them these new sponsorships They're they're they're half a million bucks for two years. Take it or leave it. Okay. And I

years. Take it or leave it. Okay. And I

give we divide them up and we say Lenny's best at this, Jason's best is Jen and we each take 15 or 17.

>> Dude, no need for AI there, is there?

>> Agreed. No need for AI today >> because the ROI is really high.

>> Yeah. And we're and we're great and and we know that the three of us are we're different. The three of us are really

different. The three of us are really different. It's going to crush and we

different. It's going to crush and we don't need any Maybe one of us will take our emails and run it through Claude real quick just to make it better, right? or or what I do is I do it for

right? or or what I do is I do it for more research. Like I write the world's

more research. Like I write the world's best email and then I say, "Claude, how could I make this better? Do a little research. It will still be better." So

research. It will still be better." So

that's an AI boost Jen should be doing.

I love Jen, but she should be she should at least be making it better. But for

our 45 50 best ones, we don't need it.

What if it's 5,000? Her approach just doesn't work. So yes, a lot of the stuff

doesn't work. So yes, a lot of the stuff we're talking about lends itself to higher volume sales. But as everyone gets bigger, it's all higher volume.

It's all there's just so much volume as you scale, right? So, yes, if you're tiny and you have three prospects and you're you're just getting into Y Combinator, maybe you don't need these tools, but we we graduate out of that

more quickly. And and the bespoke thing

more quickly. And and the bespoke thing for Jen, I think, will work for high dollar value enterprise, but is outside

of that, I don't know, man. Uh it's uh you just can't touch enough people.

Humans can't touch enough people, and humans don't want to do the work. They

don't want to talk to the mediocre leads. They literally don't. I'll tell

leads. They literally don't. I'll tell

you an like when I was in London, I wanted to buy a $10,000 product. Okay?

And I'm literally in London. I and we're doing SAS. I don't have any time, right?

doing SAS. I don't have any time, right?

And I get confused with the time zones, Lenny. I don't know if you do. I don't

Lenny. I don't know if you do. I don't

even know what time it is in the Bay Area. So, I just emailed this rep at the

Area. So, I just emailed this rep at the end of the year. I'm like, just send me the contract. I want to buy it, but I

the contract. I want to buy it, but I have two questions. I have two questions I want answered. I told him these two questions. And they weren't even about

questions. And they weren't even about price.

took him three days to get back to me and he introduced me to someone else on his team. It wasn't worth his time. 10

his team. It wasn't worth his time. 10

grand wasn't enough because not enough commission for him, right? So, he

introduced someone else to me and the other guy said, "I can't answer your questions unless you'll get on the phone."

phone." And I said, "I'm in London. I'm

traveling. If you will," ordinarily, I would have ended this, but I'm I'm It's a journey. I'm like, "If you answer my

a journey. I'm like, "If you answer my two questions, I will buy your property for 10K." He's like, "I need to get on

for 10K." He's like, "I need to get on the phone." Like, AI is better than

the phone." Like, AI is better than that. This is not Jen's in the

that. This is not Jen's in the whiteboards thing of doing it. So, um,

it will at least it will fill the even if Jen's process is right, AI can fill all the gaps. What about all the sponsors we the leads we didn't follow up with and we got a 70% response rate,

right? I mean, the gens are diamond in a

right? I mean, the gens are diamond in a rough and whatever the expression, the diamond. There's not that many of them.

diamond. There's not that many of them.

There's not that many of them. So, uh, I I love her and I love what she says and I agree with 99% of it. But here's a po a related point.

Most of us are don't have the hottest brands and we don't have the most elite CRO running them. So we end up settling

for not the best sales team.

That's the truth. Most 99% of the best sales reps want to work just at the hottest brands. And the minute you're

hottest brands. And the minute you're not the minute your star fades just a little bit, they don't want to work.

They they immediately want to jump to the next one. It's just there's a lot of reasons why. So bear in mind 99% of of

reasons why. So bear in mind 99% of of the world cannot attract a team of gens or better. It's just pract even I can't

or better. It's just pract even I can't even you could Lenny you're so great but even a lot of folks that would want to go work for you if you want to hire someone they'd be like well I love the but what do I have to do? I've got to

sell newsletter sp like no no no no no no no I want to be CRO at lovable I love Lenny but is that really going to get me there? Right.

there? Right.

>> Yeah.

>> So we AI can AI can beat those.

But AI can't beat the enterprise thing.

AI I I have no idea how AI is going to do inerson sales. I someone smarter than me is going to have to answer that. But

um a lot of I you know you have such a huge audience, Lenny, but I still think most of your folks are in tech and doing tech sales. Tech is the largest segment

tech sales. Tech is the largest segment of our economy and growing, right? So

for the most part, these tools will work for tech sales. Tech sales is over the Zoom, over the phone, over email. We're

not We should knock on more doors. We

should do more in person. All the data I've ever collected shows everything closes at a higher rate if you go in person. It's just not. But in tech, it's

person. It's just not. But in tech, it's basically as much automation as we can get away with in GTM.

>> What I think might be helpful is just like let me zoom out for a second and describe what you've gone through here.

So you used to have I love this visual you had of the desks of the sales folks in your office uh where you had inbound STRs, you had outbound SDRs, maybe a support person

>> and three or four AES account.

>> Okay. three or four AES who kind of take these leads and then close the deal.

>> And so now in just like instead of humans, there's an agent doing each of these jobs. Yes.

these jobs. Yes.

>> You have this inbound this outbound uh agent that's just sending emails trying to find potential leads. Uh an inbound agent that's talking to people that are interested, trying to get them uh more

excited. And then is there an AE agent

excited. And then is there an AE agent or I forget what that?

>> We have that's what I'm still learning.

We have one full-time AE plus >> 20% of Amelia's time, so it's 1.2 doing what five or six AES do.

>> I see.

>> And no SDR BDRs.

>> Got it. So basically all the top of funnels is AI. Yes.

>> And there's one human now that takes all this all the great stuff and just closes the deals, negotiates pricing, things like that.

>> Yeah. Maybe 1.2 just to say it. But but

yeah, let's call 1.2.

>> Yeah. So that's where I wanted to go. So

Amelia, so that feels really important.

just somebody, not necessarily full-time, but just staying on top of these agents, watching the emails, making sure quality is high, making sure they're running correctly. Talk about

just like how important that part is to this whole operation.

>> It It's critical. It It's critical. And,

you know, people are posting on LinkedIn that they want to hire these GTM engineers or I don't think that role exists today. I

I I worry when I see these roles. I

think today, and listen, if we get together in 18 months, we'll we'll update this because the world's changing so fast, right? I think today 95% of 100 you've got to promote someone internally. It's got to be a nerd,

internally. It's got to be a nerd, someone that likes marketing and sales and is quant. You know, a lot of BTOC people are frankly good at this stuff because in B toc sales and marketing are kind of the same thing, you know, but

someone that's a nerd that loves to sit in front of data for a couple hours a day and and route data and manage these agents and uh they come out of product, they could come out of marketing, but

maybe they could come out of RevOps, but they better be nerdy. Odds they come out of regular sales approach zero. So, I

would find someone on my team that raises their hand and says, "I've already done this." Okay, I I've already I've already written 10 apps in Replet and I and I and I love Verscell and I did this and I've already tried these

ones on my own. Can I please manage these for you? And then have them be your chief orchestration officer. But it

is a new skill set. It it really is. And

and ultimately finding someone that's going to spend an hour or two a day to manage these agents is the new new frontier for us to figure out. Um they

they do not they they operate autonomously but not without constant oversight and iteration. That's the

confusing part. It and and you just if you just buy one of these products and disappear, you will have zero ROI. So

maybe too long of an answer, but that's critical. And I just think unfortunately

critical. And I just think unfortunately >> you're going to you have to grow this resource at home today. You have to even within versel that basically grew the resource in home, right? We're not all

versel, but I just haven't seen it.

Everyone's hosting for this job. Um but

we need veterans.

We don't have veterans yet, right? And

going back early in the conversation, if that is you, you're going to be super employable next year.

You're going to have so many job offers, you're not going to know what to you're going to have to beat them off.

>> And when you think of is Amelia, would you describe as a go to market engineer or do you is that a different role?

Chief I would say officer.

>> Yeah. Okay.

>> But she knows the product's cold >> she knows how the all the quirks work, how all the agents work in and here's a this is this is a a complicated issue, but an interesting one. If you're

running multiple agents, okay, someone's got to segment which of the base the agents are working with or they're going to have tons of conflict, you need someone smart enough and any like really

nerdy demand genen marketer that loves data can do this. But you've got to segment your base >> otherwise it just becomes a mess. There

are no people on X and the internet talk about these master agents that can manage agents that can manage agents.

We're not there yet. Okay m maybe like I'm excited for it but we're not there yet. So just even figuring out how to

yet. So just even figuring out how to segment your base so you can do inbound, retargeting, remarketing, new marketing, like so so that that is complicated,

but most badass marketers kind of understand that. They're already doing

understand that. They're already doing AB testing, segmenting their bases. This

is not new, is it?

>> No.

>> No. Yeah,

>> it's Yeah, >> but turning it on with zero work is a F.

Like it's just it's just no chance.

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I'm looking back at some notes I took as you were talking of just like advice for each function almost of how to be successful in this future that you're seeing. So I try to summarize briefly.

seeing. So I try to summarize briefly.

So your advice for sales people is use the agents, build one yourself, try to train it, help it run, run alongside you so that you understand these tools and be the person within the sales or that's uh

>> for for leadership. I advise that >> for leaders, >> I don't know that if your average SDR or junior salesperson is going to get budget for their own agent. If they do run with it, the problem, Lenny, is that

all these agents that work today, they have forward deployed engineers, they have training, so they're all like 50 grand and up. 50 grand, 80 grand. I mean

people pay more don't get me wrong but kind of the entry level point for these is sort of like 50 grand plus 25k for the FDE or 75 like they want even clay I

think starts at 100k a year so if you're a bigger organization that's cheaper than a human right it's it's a tall but but there are no $99 a month uh products which has a lot of it they're trying and

I think it's going to come they don't autotrain yet particularly well and so I don't know that junior folks are going to have access to 100k budget unfortunately right so that advice is

for the VPs the folks that are worried a lot of them are worried that I'm obsolete right that I'm obsolete that I'm not going to get that role at Verscell or

OpenAI um so keep keep going my the advice for the junior folks is to embrace it you if you whatever tools your

organization is using become the best person at working with that agent and you will automatically get more efficient Yeah. Is it annoying that that you walk

Yeah. Is it annoying that that you walk into work and the agent set up four calls for you and maybe you only wanted to do two of them? Embrace it. Embrace

it because you'll be twice as productive. Right. I was literally

productive. Right. I was literally talking yesterday. There's a company I'm

talking yesterday. There's a company I'm on the board of called owner.com which is kind of like AI for restaurants are crossing 100 million in revenue going really quickly. He's got 100 folks on

really quickly. He's got 100 folks on the sales team. Kyle does. With AI, he's trying he's targeting 3 to five million in revenue per rep.

3 to 5 million. Honestly, if this was three or four years ago for a similar company, it would be 3 to 500K.

That's an order of magnitude more efficiency. Still 100 reps, right? 100

efficiency. Still 100 reps, right? 100

reps. Uh he's going to need more to hit the number for next year, but 3 to 5 million per rep. So, if you're that guy that can work with those tools, you become more valuable.

But if you fight it, if you don't want to do that extra meeting, if you fight it, um there's a there's a there's a tool, another tool we use for RevOps.

There's two we use. One's called

Momentum, one's called Attention.

They're both great. They're very

similar. And what it does is every single thing a human does is automatically tracked in your CRM instantly. Every comm real time. There

instantly. Every comm real time. There

have been tools that have done some of this before, but literally everything.

And and when we rolled it out, and it happened with a few other folks I know, one of the folks on that old team quit that day. Quit the day we rolled out the

that day. Quit the day we rolled out the the AI RevOps. You know why? He hadn't

done anything in 30 days.

>> The gig was up.

>> Oh wow.

>> Every day he would show up to our standup and he said, "Yeah, I'm doing outbound and I'm really working on that deal with Versel >> and nothing would close." And then we said, "Oh, we're" and he quit that day.

So my point is he didn't lean into it, right? Lean into it. Now you're going to

right? Lean into it. Now you're going to have full total transparency on your day. You know, granola is, you know, a

day. You know, granola is, you know, a side example for everything. But but AI is going to track everything you do.

Like if you want to fight it, you want to fight the future, good luck to you.

But embrace it and you will you will leap ahead of your peers that aren't embracing this. Embra embrace all the

embracing this. Embra embrace all the transparency, all the leads, all the work it makes you do. Because you can't close 10 times as much doing the same amount of work, can you?

>> Nope.

>> We do more work with AI. I'm working the hardest I've ever worked.

That's with all these agents and all the output they create and Ameilia does a lot of it but even I am working the hardest but but it but it's better but it's not less work it's the it's more work the agents are so productive you

have to keep up so I so sorry to interrupt for the for the for the managers buy an agent deploy it yourself don't have someone else do it do everything from training to ingestion to orchestration and those terms will be

less scary to you for the junior folks be the guy the gal the person that loves these tools and that is the first person to embrace whatever it is. Don't fight

it.

>> Awesome. Okay. For founders in startups, what I'm hearing is the um be that forward deployed engineer, have that person, that sales engineer that's sitting there helping companies. This is

basically an opportunity to to uh compete with bigger players where you're actually there helping them set things up. Like all the companies you

up. Like all the companies you mentioned, none of them are big companies. They're all startups, which

companies. They're all startups, which is really interesting.

>> It is true. I will say it is working with Salesforce the way we are. It's the

way I haven't worked with Salesforce since it was the first product I bought.

I mean, 20 years ago, dude. Um, when I bought Salesforce 20 years ago, I got everything was hands-on. I bought two seats. I remember back in the day

seats. I remember back in the day talking to my rep. I'm like, "Don't talk to me. You don't have time. You work at

to me. You don't have time. You work at Salesforce. I'm buying two seats." He's

Salesforce. I'm buying two seats." He's

like, "No, no, no. This is what we do.

I'm here for you. I'm going to help you get your app on the app exchange. We're

going to do all that." And that went away. It's kind of back, right? And

away. It's kind of back, right? And

Mark's got 2,000 folks doing this at Salesforce now. So, we have a forward

Salesforce now. So, we have a forward deployed engineer. I'm not even sure it

deployed engineer. I'm not even sure it makes economic sense. And maybe in two years someone like you or I would not get an FDE, but but but the big companies are figuring it out. But yes,

pick a vendor that will make you a success with with an FDE, right? And and

um people throw this term out, but again, it's just someone that's going to make sure you get trained and onboarded with your product for real. But yeah, so start startups have a motivation to do this in a way that maybe some of the

incumbents really are still figuring out right?

>> Which is a big opportunity for startups to actually do this. And this actually resonates uh very uh closely to what Jen suggested for startups which is sell services initially just like do work for

them solve their problem not with software to get things started to grow that into a massive contract with them that is software.

>> You mean the mean land and expand start with a smaller deal and grow it.

>> Start no like like a for like a person sitting there doing this work with them.

Essentially what you're describing don't just like we have software go try using it. It's like we will have someone on

it. It's like we will have someone on our team helping you figure this out and and maybe there's not even software yet to do all these things, but we'll have them do it for you and then the software will take on more and more of that work over time.

>> I think that's always been great advice and startups have always been great at this like in the early days you the CEO does it is is doing support and co's on boarding you. I think what's different

boarding you. I think what's different today is the agent will fail without training and onboarding this product. It

it it will fail like it will never it will never work. So it it becomes an imperative if you want to win like you need I I you this term has been bandied about too much but you need a team of humans we can call them forward deployed

engineers that make a 100% sure that when the agent is turned on it's awesome that's your job as a founder make sure it's awesome versus in the old days that even when I built one of the first e

signature services that was so easy to use we'd have some customers take them two years to go live big customers that's just not okay in the age of AI >> right >> yeah And these forward to deploy engineers is that just another name for

sales engineer or is that a different sort of background?

>> It can be and I think all this nomclature is confusing man all this orchestration and ingestion. I think

we're we we're conf like Palunteer is obviously the single most successful public B2B company at the moment right maybe maybe data bricks and a few others will beat them in the next wave of IPOs but their idea for forward deployed engineers is similar but these are nine

figure deals. Most of us aren't doing

figure deals. Most of us aren't doing hundred million dollar deals. So the

idea that you'll have Gary Tan and an army of folks out in the office for 6 months getting the software to work that that that sort of inspires the idea but it's really sure it could be a sales engineer or solution architect but the

difference is the sees that a lot of us worked with in the days were resources and often like there was also a classic resource of like eight sales reps to one SE. So the eight reps would there'd be a

SE. So the eight reps would there'd be a pod and one SE would be responsible and you'd kind of have to fight to get Jason or Lenny's time to help the eight reps.

This is inverted. The FDE's number one job is to make the customer a success.

Okay. I was literally the other day doing a presentation, an AI leader that closed a $3 million deal. Um, the FTE did it all themselves. Sales wasn't even

involved in the deal. They went on site, they got the deployment going, they tuned it everything. All sales did was manage it through the procurement process. Okay, that's pretty different

process. Okay, that's pretty different than a guy answering some questions for the humans, right? So it is a combination of customer success and SE or whatever but it is it is really I

mean frankly it's just being a a classic consultant that gets the product done on day one on on day one. That's the

difference is that when you go live it works. When you go live it works. That's

works. When you go live it works. That's

what that and it's a fancy name for a bunch of folks on your team that when it goes live the AI agent actually works.

So you have a 100% success rate instead of like the 5% rate of 2024. So those

people, but they do need to be tech technical. I don't know if they need to

technical. I don't know if they need to be engineers. It can really vary based

be engineers. It can really vary based on, you know, I love it when they're kind of like mediocre engineers that are like in love with the product. That's my

favorite type of FD. Like they're only they don't really want to code much anymore, but they did code and they like just love your product. Um but uh I don't think it can be someone with no product chops but it could all different

folks can work but they they've got to know the product cold but um yeah I would startups like I mean the term is thrown around you need four folks that will just make sure that on go live the product works your agentic product works

that's what you need >> I think what might be useful to close out this conversation is to kind of go through what are the things that are changing like maybe a handful of things that that are changed that are now going

to be different in the world of sales go to And what are a few things that are just going to stay the same?

>> Yeah, let's go through it. Obviously,

support is the first one to have changed. It's our obviously permanently

changed. It's our obviously permanently changed with AI, right? Whatever vendor

you look at, 50 to 80% of support is done by AI. And we don't always think about support as GTM, but it is it's the start of a customer journey. It's very

important to the customer journey. So,

so if you're skeptical, go look at, you know, support has changed permanently.

So, that that train's left the station.

Really, as we record this, not much has changed in sales. I mean, I do think the stuff we've talked about is the bleeding edge. I do think the classic

edge. I do think the classic cadencebased SDR running campaigns through a through a tool him or herself will be mostly extinct with 12 months.

There is no reason AI can't do a better job than that role. The classic

qualifier qualifying inbound leads, which is a crappy experience for customers, should be similarly extinct within mostly extinct um in 12 months.

the rest we're we're going to wait and see. I think what we do know for reps,

see. I think what we do know for reps, for sales reps, everyone wants to be even more efficient in the next 12 months. There's a lot of reasons people

months. There's a lot of reasons people want to be again at the bottom end, it's it's it's cost, it's profitability pressures. At the high end, it's

pressures. At the high end, it's cultural. We just don't want 200 reps

cultural. We just don't want 200 reps running around Verscell or Rep.

Everyone at just the company owner, 3 to 5 million per rep is a lot different than 3 to 500,000. So, you have to adjust as a rep. you still there's still every AI leader can't hire enough reps like we talked about, but you're going

to have to adjust to being geometrically if not exponentially more productive with help from AI. So, you have to embrace these tools for real. And

everyone, a lot of folks, a lot of old school GTM leaders are like, you know, AI isn't going to hurt sales reps. It's

just going to make them give them superpowers.

The best ones, yes, the mediocre are just going to be like more mediocre, right? Um, so I think the AE is we will

right? Um, so I think the AE is we will always have salespeople, but being a people person is not enough anymore.

You know how you can tell a mediocre salesperson Lenny?

>> You ask them what they're really good at. I'm a people person, Lenny. You know

at. I'm a people person, Lenny. You know

how you can you know you know how you you know how good I am, Lenny? I I I'm on text with 10 of my best customers.

I'm a people person.

>> Um, what are the toughest technical objections you have at your product?

What what they don't they don't know, but they're a people person. you know, this is like golf 3.0. It just it's not enough. Like it's it's it's

enough. Like it's it's it's insufficient. So people people are

insufficient. So people people are becoming obsolete in sales. Um field

sales, no idea how AI is going to impact that if you're out in the field. I mean,

you know, the enterprise leaders are hiring more field sales people than ever. Salesforce is hiring more than

ever. Salesforce is hiring more than ever. Um and knocking on doors still

ever. Um and knocking on doors still works, man. So don't don't know the

works, man. So don't don't know the answers there. But the office worker and

answers there. But the office worker and the work from home worker, AI is going to take as much of your job or make you as much better as it can and you got to embrace it. So that that's a I would say

embrace it. So that that's a I would say from support to knocking on doors. You

know, we're going to go from 80% to 0%.

Uh >> what about phone calls?

>> You know, it's a great question and we should have hit it. Obviously, there's

there's plenty of robocall and regulatory issues around it. Um

certainly a lot of startups are breaking the rules anyway. I would say this.

Listen, there are there's phone calls and there's even SMS. There's limits to how much SMS you can automate, right? A lot

of old school businesses don't even check emails, right? I mean, you're working in the shop floor. So, those are unanswered questions. People are

unanswered questions. People are breaking the rules. Open AI still breaks the rules, right? Um, now it's licensing Disney content. It used to just borrow

Disney content. It used to just borrow Disney content. We will see. Um, so I

Disney content. We will see. Um, so I don't I don't know the answers to that.

I think in in Europe it'll certainly be much slower than in the US, but startups are going to push the limits. They're

going to push the limits on what we can do with AI calls, AI enhanced, whether a human's kind of on the line, but AI is doing all the work. Maybe that maybe that's legal, right? Getting more

consent for SMS than we typically get.

So to think that the typical barriers to roboc calling in SMS is gonna that startups aren't going to bend the rules in the age of AI, I I'm I'm dubious, but it's a good question. It's harder to do.

The one thing I will add is um and it's a good objection to all of this and and I'd love to get Jen's thoughts too, but if you talk to the startups you'd invest

in, uh Lenny, fewer of them are good at outbound phone calls than you'd think, right? We had um we had multip of the

right? We had um we had multip of the heads of uh revenue at um Ripling Speak at Saster, the old CRO worked on my team and others. They were late to develop uh

and others. They were late to develop uh cold calling because we never did it back in the the CRO was on my team. So,

we had to you had to bring in someone that had worked with Sam Blonde at Brex who had done it. It is a real art to pick up the phone and close business. It

is a specialized skill. And so, if you if if that's your specialized skill and there's no way for AI to benefit, so be it. But I don't think for most tech

it. But I don't think for most tech calls that that is as impactful as we pretend it is. I don't think most of the startups you and I work with and most of the folks listen to this do not close the majority of their revenue with cold

human cold calls. It's it is a it is a craft that works but man it you got to be good at it.

>> You have this line somewhere that if you can close on a text message AI can close it.

>> Yes it is. I'm being facitious in the sense

it is. I'm being facitious in the sense that people say that I think have weaker relationships with customers. This is

why a is people have weaker relationships with their customers than they think. Yeah. And if it's so easy to

they think. Yeah. And if it's so easy to close a deal on a text message, and we've done hundreds of thousands of these and found it, folks don't mind if it's an AI. If it's a good AI, why won't

it close it on the text message? Right?

AI can be people people, too.

It really can't. If you don't believe me, folks, go to Lennybot. Is that the URL? Lennybot.com.

URL? Lennybot.com.

>> Lennybot.com.

>> If you don't think AI can be people people, go spend hours on Lennybot, don't they?

>> Yeah. And uh the best part is you could talk to talk to Lennybot uh with voice.

There's a voice feature that sounds exactly like me. It's unbelievable.

>> Yeah. So, and and one a meta reason to go use Lennybot. Go in with a learning a learning mind. Don't go in bias. You

learning mind. Don't go in bias. You

will find that AI can be people people.

People spend hours. Our best who are our best therapists today as we record this chat. GPT is our best best therapist on

chat. GPT is our best best therapist on planet Earth. It's a people person. I

planet Earth. It's a people person. I

mean, it sounds silly, but if if that is your best defense in sales that you're a people person, uh you you're the the sands are the sands are sinking beneath you right now. It's it's not enough of a

skill. It's people person is great when

skill. It's people person is great when people buy enterprise software that's going to take two years to roll out and they have no idea how it works and it's a hope and a prayer

when you expect the agent to work during the pilot before the big check comes people person is insufficient terrific talk tell me the person that's

going to launch my agent train it and get into production for me before I even pay you it was you know it is this is the dream when he this is maybe this is one of the biggest changes of all

when I talk with Mark Beni off and Salesforce is the biggest right it's 44 billion it's the biggest ship to to turn right he's like the number one thing I envy in Palunteer one is their high deal sizes he made that joke in all the media

and all the press but the other thing is I wish he said I wish I could I can't today I wish every Salesforce customer now could go live before they pay that is so different from how we've been

trained in many ways to almost rip off the customer to get them to buy the product. Uh try first try to avoid a

product. Uh try first try to avoid a pilot, then have the smallest pilot we can, then roll it out over years to different people. AI has upped the bar

different people. AI has upped the bar in terms of what customers expect. And

that's why the best ones are blowing up because the the ROI is so high. Um and

so you you've got to deliver the ROI before the document is e- signed today.

That will people that haven't fully embraced that are at public companies growing 8%.

They're still trying to play games.

>> What are some other things that you think are going to change that people may not be thinking about that's going to change the way we do sales in the next couple years?

>> Net net, we're going to need more sales and go to market professionals than ever because the winners are growing so quickly that even if they're more efficient, they will need more human

beings than ever. I I I I we'd have to put together a spreadsheet to see the crossover point. Obviously, many folks

crossover point. Obviously, many folks are shrinking headcount. Microsoft's

already said they're past peak employee.

They will never they'll never going to be bigger. You're we're seeing this all

be bigger. You're we're seeing this all across the companies we work with. They

don't want to be they want to be as lean as they can. But AI is such a huge part of our economy already, right? And it's

such it's such a force of nature and everyone is, you know, everyone eventually goes enterprise. Everyone

eventually has a sales team. Everyone

eventually does it. It's happening

faster. You know, 11 Labs um 50% of their sales is through enterprise now, right? I mean, I don't know everybody.

right? I mean, I don't know everybody.

Um, the fact that Verscell just added Janine means they're going more enterprise by definition, right? I think

Replet just added a sales team a couple months ago for real and now they've added another CRO. So they got to 10 and something million with no traditional sales team, but at a billion it's going

to be flooded with salespeople. So if

you get great at this stuff, if you go buy an agent today, when you listen to this and deploy it yourself and do the hard work and train it and ingest it and iterate it every day and get ahead of it and then get two agents, then three and

then four, you may become more valuable, have a better experience in DTM, and I believe I hope actually be better paid. Like

I've talked about that we should have $250,000 a year SDRs, but they'd be like at Versel, they'd be managing 10 agents, not 10 people. then they're worth 250 grand instead of 80 grand or 90 grand.

It's it's not that much, is it? So there

is a great world coming. These are the best of times, aren't they, Lenny, for product and business, right? Just it's

not evenly distributed. So you want to be you want to have if you have those skills, even though we're not going to need these SDRs and even though we're not going to be BDRs, even though we can get rid of half of AES, there is so the

amount of revenue and growth in AI leaders is so phenomenal, right? Not not

just at the startups at the Google clouds at everywhere the the Azour there they're hiring so many humans that netnet it's a positive for the profession but not for the way we've

done it in the past you're at risk >> that is really interesting that we're still hiring and and and and this is what I've seen too just like everyone's hiring sales people go to market people do you think there's like going to be this peak in the next couple years of

just okay now that AI is doing more and more of this or is it or is it just hard to predict because who knows how big AI gets how big these companies I mean it is over a trillion dollars. I

don't see any re and it's accelerating the amount of AI is is increasing the amount Gartner says next year will be the fastest acceleration of money deployed into it and software in a

decade. It's reacelerated. That can that

decade. It's reacelerated. That can that last forever? No. Eventually we we

last forever? No. Eventually we we consume 100% of the global GDP. There's

no money left to buy. Like there there are some some limits. But I I think for I don't think you and I and anyone any of the millions of people that follow you, I don't think we got to think too much more than three to four years out

here. It's too much. There's too much

here. It's too much. There's too much change. If you if you become a master of

change. If you if you become a master of the universe and AI, you will be hyper employable the next two to three years.

And if you stay with a learner's mind, that will just compound. And so you will you will have a a job that I think is far more interesting, even if more tiring than than than we used to have.

But the days of working 20 hours a week and kind of phoning it in and getting a few deals, uh, you know, I I think those are forever beh That That was a great time. Um, even you had a little bit of

time. Um, even you had a little bit of that. You're I think you're working

that. You're I think you're working harder than you used to, aren't you?

>> I am. I am.

>> I mean, the classic Lenny vibe at 100,000 subscribers was kind of leave me alone. I take a lot of vacations. I do

alone. I take a lot of vacations. I do

some good work. I mean, it's still part of your vibe, but I I think you're working harder.

>> I'm working incredibly hard. I am. The

original idea was create this like like chill newsletter life. I'm just going to write a newsletter once a week. Life's

gonna be good.

>> And uh it was just it's just hard to pass up on really cool opportunities and and do more, help it grow bigger. Like

it's just I couldn't resist. So yeah,

I'm working.

>> And that should be all of us though.

Like we should you should be feel if you're not feeling what you said or even a version of what I said then then you're not you're not living you're not in the right you're not living the AI dream today. It is more work. It should

dream today. It is more work. It should

be tired. It should be like it if nothing even if it's better in some ways it is just more work. Um but but this is the most exciting time of our lifetimes to be in software. I mean good god I'm

like I can't even code Lety and I've built 12 apps on replet in the last 150 days used by a million million times.

I've been waiting 10 years for some of these folks to build some of these apps.

I just did it myself, right? I literally

just when I was in London, I built a whole app where you can sell you can practice selling Harvey Cursor Replet and ChatgBT Enterprise and it works like we couldn't this wasn't even

possible at the start of the year, was it? So, these are magical times and we

it? So, these are magical times and we the fact that we can we can run an eight figureure business with three people and 20 agents. It's like, you know, get get

20 agents. It's like, you know, get get excited or like go join one of these really slow growing be like I I my advice is pick one of two paths today.

Either be working harder like even you and I are, right? We don't have to. Um

or honestly, I will say the truth is the the there were a thousand unicorns born in 2021, right? 800 of them are growing pretty slowly, will never IPO, may not have an exit, but they're okay with 8%

or 15% growth. If you don't want to be on the journey we talked about, I'm not judging. I get it. We're humans, right?

judging. I get it. We're humans, right?

We have families. Not all of us are obsessed. I think I'm kind of obsessed.

obsessed. I think I'm kind of obsessed.

I think you've become more obsessed. If

that's not you, join join something more slow growing. They still need people.

slow growing. They still need people.

Not as many. They still need people. But

I would pick I would pick a lane for next year. Don't pretend that there's

next year. Don't pretend that there's this middle path going to start because it don't exist in GTM. And I don't think it exists in product or engineering either.

>> I love just how excited you are about this. just like you could tell on

this. just like you could tell on Twitter just how fun this is for you just learning and sharing and uh and I love that you're sharing it, but I think it's just a symptom of you're just so excited about what's happening and what you're learning and it's just like you

can't help but share it. I'm in the same way. I'm just like, "Oh I just

way. I'm just like, "Oh I just vibed this really cool thing. I got to tweet about it."

>> It's just it is just magical that our ability to build things that we couldn't build before or build in ways and paces. It it's just

and paces. It it's just >> it it's and it's accelerating. It's so I mean we could talk about it forever, but even for me for like I just picked Rep.

I picked Replet because Twitter told me to. I could have picked another tool.

to. I could have picked another tool.

Like I'm not an investor and I'm not I'm not even biased, but I'm in the top 1%.

>> Just to double down what you said, you're top 1% user of Replet.

>> Yeah.

>> Wow.

>> Yeah. So it really didn't work well when I started about 170 days ago. Then a V2 came out and it got better. the

hallucinations went away and then this is just like you got to get excited about folks may not know this and other tools when V3 came out I don't know 45 days ago now it has agents talking to

agents so what happens is when you when you and I again I can't really code so when I have an issue and I'm trying to figure out how to do something the agent calls in an architect or another agent and they debate and argue with it and

they come up with the right answer the first time this happened I just fell out of my chair it's just so not only is it magical I mean great you can do a prompt and build a crappy app it doesn't work now like 150 days later you have agents

debating how to build better code with each other and you don't even need to know how to code I mean this is the greatest the only greater time is going to be next year right I've been waiting I've been

waiting right um and uh you know and just that the things that you can build today and the other I mean you know this but other folks I mean that's me building without being able to code the

other Captain Obvious thing you know if you're building any why are folks so productive on all these tools I Every bit of open source software in the world is in these tools.

If you want to build something that's been built before, it's so easy. The

novel stuff's really hard, right? It's

not any easier, but man, it's just these are these are great. And so, and and maybe may maybe and so for GTM for sales, it's it's it's a couple beats behind and

and and and um there's probably a bunch of reasons for it. Some of it is, I think, ironically, is just where founders are interested. So marketing is behind sales for AI. Like the AI SGR has

exploded. I don't really know why. I

exploded. I don't really know why. I

invested in a couple of PreAiI tools. Um

I invested in Salesoft which was sold for two and a half billion as like the last deal the 2020 ones like the seed investment. No one wanted to be in that

investment. No one wanted to be in that category. Now everyone in the world

category. Now everyone in the world wants to build an AISD AR CRM. But

marketing is slower just because they're really people don't really want to build the cursor for marketing. People say

they do but but you it's just not but it it will get there. But um the innovation will just accelerate. It's just going to accelerate. So So don't be a skeptic on

accelerate. So So don't be a skeptic on this stuff. Like if you're not as

this stuff. Like if you're not as excited as me, then here's my last bit of advice on this for folks. If you're

not if you don't feel what I feel, here's my advice over the holidays.

When you have a quiet moment when you're having your mold wine or your hot chocolate or whatever, go fire up your browser. Do it in incognito.

browser. Do it in incognito.

Go to your app and do everything with a fresh Gmail address. Try support.

See how your support is. Try to contact sales. Sign up for the newsletter. Do

sales. Sign up for the newsletter. Do

everything. Try your product. If you do this quietly, your heart, you're going to cry about some of the things you've seen. You're going to cry how bad your

seen. You're going to cry how bad your support is. You're going to cry how long

support is. You're going to cry how long it takes sales to get back to you.

You're going to cry about a couple things. Pick the thing that makes you

things. Pick the thing that makes you cry the most over your mold wine and go buy that agent and fix it. and and then you will have the passion that we have

this I always counel people to do this it just wasn't as actionable before but so many f you just get lost you forget about what these things you forget about the onboarding workflow and you forget about support and you forget

how bad contact me and you're so lost in the strategic so you got it once a year ideally once a quarter just do this incognito mode test and even for lady's newsletter I bet we can find some part you forgot to touch

>> nope not gonna happen I'm Just I'm just joking.

>> You like, "Oh my god, I can't believe I I didn't touch that since I launched the Substack. It doesn't even go to the

Substack. It doesn't even go to the right that page just gets a 404.

>> I'm going to do this over the holidays."

And I love that this like usually the advice would have been, okay, email your product manager and tell them you found all these bugs. What you're saying here is no, find an agent to take care of this in the future. Like make this a much better experience for everyone

always.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And if it's the one that makes you cry, it may motivate you to do it.

>> Yeah. And you don't it's not like you have to publish it to production. It's

not like you have to have your, you know, CEO approve this thing. It's just

like show them what you might be able to do. Here's what I did over the weekend.

do. Here's what I did over the weekend.

Uh maybe we should explore doing this thing with our site.

>> Yeah. The jaw is just my job.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Oh man. Jason, I feel like I could chat with you for hours, but uh I think it's this is a good point to to wrap things up. Is there anything that you wanted to

up. Is there anything that you wanted to share or is there anything you want to leave listeners with? One last thing maybe that comes up that I've learned that that are on people's minds and we can break is a lot of folks are

concerned. Hey, this will impact

concerned. Hey, this will impact people's jobs. What do I do? Like, okay,

people's jobs. What do I do? Like, okay,

I want I I did what you said. I did the incognito mode. I'm going to bring in

incognito mode. I'm going to bring in this this agent, this sales agent or this support agent. I've tried I've even did but but I'm worried I'm going to get pushed back and people are going to lose

their jobs. Um I don't h I I don't have

their jobs. Um I don't h I I don't have the perfect answer to this one, but I think be honest about it. be be honest that for the best people it will make them more productive. For the best

people it it it will be even fun. For

the best people they will be better at their job. And if it is a threat to some

their job. And if it is a threat to some of the folks on the team, the future's coming anyway. We might as well embrace

coming anyway. We might as well embrace it. So it's just when I hear I I I

it. So it's just when I hear I I I wouldn't I would be positive about it. I

would explain it helps the best people.

Um but I I don't think dancing around it is the right answer in your organization. it it will result in

organization. it it will result in change and if it if some jobs change from one world to the other that that's life in the age of AI don't don't hide it I don't think it helps >> I love that in your case and in uh

Jean's case at Verscell it's not like you let anyone go in your case the SDRs quit uh and in her case she moved them from I believe from inbound to outbound or outbound to inbound she just kind of

reshuffled them to do to have higher impact somewhere else >> I think that's an important a really important point this is another thing that I think the media creates too much drama on I don't think AI is not I mean

AI has led to some layoffs. Um but even though most of the ones we read it's just a justification to do layoffs. It's

just it's just a reason to blame it on it. Um uh what's a much bigger issue is

it. Um uh what's a much bigger issue is that people just won't be backfilled with humans. We will use AI to

with humans. We will use AI to backfield. That's what we did. Like we

backfield. That's what we did. Like we

didn't fire I've never fired anyone in my whole career other than for inappropriate conduct a few times, right? That's that you fired today for

right? That's that you fired today for that stuff. But pretty much I've never

that stuff. But pretty much I've never fired anyone that didn't do something inappropriate. they just when they go

inappropriate. they just when they go this time we just said now it's the agents right and so that's a much bigger force of nature than some random layoffs which probably aren't really new to AI right it's probably not because you

brought in 20 agents in 2025 it's probably because you just want to downsize anyway and this is the excuse um so it's not it's not a it's probably less of a threat to you than you think

AI um but it what it does mean is if you're not don't want to embrace it Lenny maybe don't leave your current job >> yeah I was just >> maybe don't leave your current top >> because the new place might not be

hiring for this role.

>> Yeah, I have a God I have I have a a sales exec who I love. I worked I'd known for many years and he went from a 100k job then almost an 800k job then

down to a 200k job then left that one because he didn't like it and now he can't get a job at all. He's back in school. So maybe stay.

school. So maybe stay.

>> We all maybe stay.

>> No shame in staying is there?

>> Yeah, I like that. Well, with that, Jason, we have reached our very exciting lightning round. This is your second

lightning round. This is your second time going through a lightning round, so I'll make it uh I'll make it quick.

First question, what are a couple books you often find yourself recommending to other people?

>> I was recently asked to write a forward for a book from one one of the revenue leaders I have the most respect for in the world. I read a little bit of it. I

the world. I read a little bit of it. I

couldn't do it because as good as it was, it was dated. It wasn't current enough in AI. And there's just I don't know if we said it this it might have been before we started the pod. The

plays all work, but the playbooks don't really work as well. So, so many of these GTM books are playbooks, especially folks selling courses and stuff, but they're playbooks.

Run from the playbooks. Embrace the

plays. And so, read all these go to market and sales books and take take great items from them, which was always the goal from a book, right? Pick three

two or three things out of it. But uh

I'm I I think I'm winging for the next level of books in GTM in 2026 because everything I've read it's it's just too backwards looking. So just be a skeptic.

backwards looking. So just be a skeptic.

Grab the plays but don't adopt the playbook.

>> I just had the head of a growth from lovable Elena Ver on the podcast. She

had the same advice that all these playbooks that she's used over the last 20 years in growth just don't work anymore at AI companies.

>> Uh next question. Do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show that you have really enjoyed?

>> What's this one called? What's it

called? Plurabus. Is that what it's called?

>> Plurabus. Yeah.

>> Watching that.

>> It's And and this is so it's a good show.

This is what I realized is why you should be excited about AI and GTM is Pluribus because Plur in Pluribus there's like a hive mind, right? We're

all connect all the people except 11 people or 13 people. They're all

connected.

People don't get this. This is why a right now the whole point when we're doing this, maybe maybe we'll do a third one if I'm lucky. The whole point is just get your AI agents to be almost as good as humans, but working 24/7 and at

scale, that's pretty damn good. If it

can do 10 or 100 times more work 24/7, as pretty good as your human, that's a resource you don't even have today. It's

not that complicated. When AI really is the hive mind, when it can share all of the data across all of your agents and knows everything that happens, then humans are at risk in GTM.

They're going to be so much better when they're the hive mind. right now our hive uh and and there's a bit of a renaissance for Salesforce as a CRM.

There's a bunch of reasons even though it's old right it's founded in the 90s it has become the hub for these AI GTM agents they all plug in so Salesforce has become the database for all these so so that's a little hint of the plurabus

hive mine but when all these agents can talk with each other for real and share all their GTM data and all the customer data and everything on the one next time we do it the 3.8 8 million people that read Lenny's and all the agents can

share data together. No human that that's I don't mean to turn turn plurabus into an AIGTM show. But uh

there's my connection. But but it it's pretty good, right?

>> I get it. I get it. Oh man, that show's so good. I feel like every episode I get

so good. I feel like every episode I get these pushes from Apple TV like there's a new episode of Player Bus. I'm like I can't wait to go watch that. They just

leave the each episode ends and like oh I can't wait to see what happens next.

Okay. Is there a favorite product you've recently discovered that you really love like an app or a gadget or clothing?

>> Maybe not the last two weeks. I'll just

give a small one just just for GTM1.

There is because everyone's about Sora this and all of this and video and I love it. Um I get it. But there is an

love it. Um I get it. But there is an app called Reeve. It used to be Reevar.

It's for imaging and it is the folks that build it built their own image LLM on their own. And the reason I bring this up, I use it every single day. is

because it can do a lot of cool things with a prompt, right? But if you want to do cool stuff for marketing, if you want to create a great image, I have a CMMO

buying my product doing this, I don't know a tool that is better for that kind of stuff. That stuff that we used to

of stuff. That stuff that we used to torture, we used to fire up Canva and try to create things or even worse, wait four days for someone to do it for you.

I just you this is one of my cheat sheets. I have a couple tool to tools

sheets. I have a couple tool to tools that I use that people don't get, but um now it's app.rei Revi, it changed its name, but it's just a simple prompt. Go

to it, type in whatever image you want to make. And for a lot of the boring B2B

to make. And for a lot of the boring B2B stuff we like to do, uh, I find it's the best.

>> And it's reve.com.

>> Yeah. Rev.

>> I'm looking at it right now. Copy bar

delivering matcha through a quite moss garden.

>> app.ve.com.

>> Yeah. Sweet.

>> Oh, you're Oh, you're making the image.

You said >> I'm just like they're giving me examples here. Well, I'm on the website here.

here. Well, I'm on the website here.

Yeah, this is great. And you're saying this is better than like Nano Banana and all these other >> for this use case.

>> And you and I, we just want to do I want to do a thumbnail. I want an image for my article. I want I just did I just my

my article. I want I just did I just my niche thing content I just want to do.

I've got to do it. I just don't think there's anything better for for this use case. So

case. So >> I use it two or three times a day and I use all this stuff.

>> Okay. The alpha more alpha uh to to share with the audience. Okay. Two more

questions. Do you have a favorite life motto that you've often find yourself coming back to in work or in life that you often maybe even share with other people?

>> I'll just tell you one in the weird time we're at. Um, this is probably your best

we're at. Um, this is probably your best startup.

>> Just talking yesterday with a friend of mine, a startup just raised 20 million from a top two or three VC founder just quit the next day. just on the call the other day

yesterday, CEO of a company at 250 million just just just quit. Uh no

success or know anyone to join a a hot AI startup. M maybe maybe

AI startup. M maybe maybe most of the time there are there are times and places to just quit when you have customers when you have a million or two million or five or 10 million in revenue but we we often think it's

easier to get back to get back to that 10 million of revenue to get back to 100 happy customers or 200. It might seem easier to quit in the age of AI, but I'd rather take those 500 happy customers,

build that badass AI product, and sell it to 500 happy customers and go off to find them from scratch. Go have to find that 10 or 20 million. So, that's I I literally had a third conversation with

a founder just crossing 100 million that wanted to leave and do a robotic startup after 10 years. I'm like, I get it, man, but like this is, you know, you have nine figures of equity in this company.

Maybe go to the next level. So there's

so much going on. They're decelerating,

accelerating. I just usually think the best startup as f for founders, not not necessarily for everybody else, is the one you're already working at. And if

you're not happy, turn that into your hot AI startup. It's not. Here's the

thing. It's not too late, Lenny.

Sometimes it feels like it's too late on social media. Maybe it's too late to

social media. Maybe it's too late to build the next chat GBT on the cheap.

Okay? But for most stuff, it's it's it's not too late. It's so it's still so early. We don't even have great AI

early. We don't even have great AI marketing tools. We're really early on

marketing tools. We're really early on these AIS SDRs. The markets have not hardened. Um, the LLMs are getting so

hardened. Um, the LLMs are getting so much better. It is, dude, if you want

much better. It is, dude, if you want it, it's not too late. So, the best startup you're ever going to have probably is the one you're working at today. Don't quit. Don't quit if you

today. Don't quit. Don't quit if you have happy customers. Maybe that's how don't quit if you have happy customers.

They'll buy more from you.

>> I love advice like that. That's uh

empowering and optimistic and and uh destresses people, I think, in a lot of ways. So, uh, that is great. Uh, final

ways. So, uh, that is great. Uh, final

question. How many, so how many sasters have you done at this point? Like how

many years of saster have there been?

>> Good god. Uh, we've done the first big, we did some meetups, you know that, right? And then we did the first bigger

right? And then we did the first bigger one in 2015. So 2016,

uh, we did we did take a break in 2020, but we did in 2021. We're the only event in the Bay Area in 2021. Um, so is that 12 of them? 12 years. It's a long time, man.

>> And then how many talks have there been across those? would you say total?

across those? would you say total?

>> And and then we've done seven in Europe.

So 12 in 12 in the US and seven in Europe.

>> Yes. So about 20. Okay. 20 events.

>> 20 bigger events. Yeah.

>> Uh I don't know like the annual one probably if you count the smaller ones 300.

>> So thousand 4,000 over the years.

>> So then here's the question. Is there a talk that you think is the one you like what's your favorite talk across all those events? Is there one you're like,

those events? Is there one you're like, "Oh, this one really stood out. This is

one I always share with people. One that

you think people might you'd want people to check out if they were to check out one talk across all seaster.

>> It it's interesting. It's like a lot of things in B2B. Everything was pretty much the same for 10 years and then all of a sudden everything's out of date.

Right. If you wanted to watch an older one, not that old, but old in internet AI time that I think will change the way you think, watch the one I did with Ben Chestnut

um right after they got acquired because that's a magical time. It's called

Everything That Breaks on the Way to One Billion. It's only got 23,000 views.

Billion. It's only got 23,000 views.

That's nothing for Lenny, but for me, that's pretty good. Okay. And it's a moment in time right after he sold a billion dollar company where he talks about how the deal almost fell apart, where he challenges almost every B2B

metric we know, how what you know, running a profitable business at that scale, not really caring about CLTV and CAC or any of these things, what really matters for customers. Is Mailchimp as

cutting edge as it was today? Right?

Maybe not. But that's one when I look at it cuz everything everything's kind of the same. We don't we don't really get

the same. We don't we don't really get challenged in the way we think.

Everyone's talking their book, right?

You're so good at getting people to not talk their book. Um but but that one I think is a great one. And then if people wanted to watch a GTM one, just some favorite ones. We did this one. It's a

favorite ones. We did this one. It's a

recent one. Matt Pl because these guys were on my team. Matt Planku of Rippling did one with Sam Blonde who was NCR of Brex. It's called Rippling Secrets to

Brex. It's called Rippling Secrets to Hyperrowth. It sounds like a commercial

Hyperrowth. It sounds like a commercial for Rippling, which is okay, right? But

because Sam was they worked together and now Sam's on the board and all like they have a fluency of two CRO who are honest and have a learner a Lenny style learners mindset. This one on the the

learners mindset. This one on the the revenue playbook from Ripling. It's it's

a it's a 14 for for GTM.

>> I just uh had Matt McInness on the podcast. Former COO, now CPO Y at

podcast. Former COO, now CPO Y at Ripling. Uh so that would be a good

Ripling. Uh so that would be a good combo of those two. Uh Jason, I don't know if you know this, but you're you're the perfect podcast guest because you

have such deep uh experience in the space that you just have answers to everything I ask. Plus, you're now just living in this future that we're all heading towards and you're like hands-on

telling us here's how the future will be and here's how it works and here's how you can get there and here's what you shouldn't do and here's what we'll bring. So, I'm just so thankful that

bring. So, I'm just so thankful that you're here sharing all this advice with us. So, I'm excited for many more

us. So, I'm excited for many more podcast conversations. So, uh, so thanks

podcast conversations. So, uh, so thanks for doing this.

>> All right, Lenny, you're the best. I'm

I'm I'm just a super fan. I'm lucky to be here. So, thank you.

be here. So, thank you.

>> Uh, let me just ask you, how can listeners be useful to you? As a closing question, >> the fun thing for me, we have we we have two websites, saster.com and SASI. Just

go to saster.ai, and just play with the tools we built. Play with the valuation calculator we talked about. Play with

the AIVC, play with any of our tools, and and just have fun and share share any feedback. Um because I've waited 10

any feedback. Um because I've waited 10 years to build tools for the Saster community. Now I want to build like 20.

community. Now I want to build like 20.

So on a side, we've talked about tools you should go buy, but building your own stuff is pretty fun, too. So try our tools and give me kind but critical feedback, but but with some kindness.

>> Okay. And it's s a str.ai.

>> Yeah, we're I'm still trying to figure out the AI versus the comm. We got a SEO issue, so I can't really move it over, but uh >> it looks great. It works. It works. It's

shorter, too. It is shorter.

>> Jason, thank you so much for being here.

>> All right, Lenny, you're the best.

>> Bye, everyone.

>> Thank you so much for listening. If you

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