What happens to Google when AI answers everything?

LLMs had been in [music] search long before we had BERT and then we had Mum.

>> Are Bert and Mum the search goats who've been there for 20 years or those technologies?

>> Uh Bert and Mum are search technologies.

>> There is probably a Bert inside Google.

>> Are you sure there is a Bert somewhere?

>> Liz Reed has quietly shaped how billions of us use the internet. First with

Google Maps and now as head of Google search. This week on the show, she opens

search. This week on the show, she opens up about what it's really like steering one of the most important products in tech just as AI is transforming everything. We talk about the race with

everything. We talk about the race with Chat GPT and Gemini, whether agents will ever become the main users of Google, and how she thinks about AI slop and the future of the open web. But first, Ellis

and I chat through what's on our minds.

From the true meaning of South by Southwest to Ellis finally cleaning up his computer with Claude and a new AI agent platform I'm excited to try.

Welcome to Access.

[music] It's Access time. What's up, Ellis?

>> Yo, we're out here. It's Wednesday,

isn't it? I don't even remember what day of the week it is half the time. I don't

know either, but LA is gorgeous and uh I am excited to be back on the road again soon. Uh I was in the same place for

soon. Uh I was in the same place for about 3 weeks and that's been wonderful.

But it's it's calling me. The road's

calling me, Ellis.

>> Well, so where are you going next?

>> So Tahoe this weekend for some skiing with the family. I've not really skied before, so I'm a little nervous. Uh and

obviously Tahoe had the awful blizzard.

Dude, for real. Can you wear some wrist guards for me, my man? We can't lose those typing hands, though. I guess

you're dictating a lot these days.

>> I'm doing Baby Slopes. And then next week, quick trip to San Francisco uh for some AI meetings, some GDC, the big gaming conference uh things. You know, I

got to got to try to attend as many fancy things as I can. And then South by Southwest the following weekend.

>> How many contacts are in your phone app, Alex?

>> [laughter] >> It's a good question. I should look. Uh,

>> can we get a quick look? [laughter]

>> Does it show you? Does it actually give you?

>> Yeah, you have to like press on the little left column.

>> It says 1,437.

>> I'm not impressed. Do you keep them elsewhere? Do you have a secret gold?

elsewhere? Do you have a secret gold?

>> I do. I have I have stuff in Signal.

I've got stuff elsewhere.

>> You have a Scoop CRM? Can you vibe code your own Scoop CRM?

>> That is on my to-do list and we're going to talk about that. But first, just want to if you're going to happen to be in Austin at Southby, uh I'm doing two things. Uh one is a panel with our

things. Uh one is a panel with our friends at Superhum um uh at their space at Antoine's about taste and curation in

the age of AI, why it matters, how I'm thinking about it for the pod, but also for the newsletter and sources. Um and

that's going to be just a great one, I think. And then I'm going to be

think. And then I'm going to be moderating um a conversation with 10 cents uh basically head of gaming here in the United States. They have a ton of

games in their portfolio and they're a pretty blackbox kind of company. They

don't really speak much. So that

hopefully that one that's interesting for people. That's on Tuesday. Uh you do

for people. That's on Tuesday. Uh you do not need a badge to go to the superhuman one. Uh but you will need a Southby

one. Uh but you will need a Southby badge for the 10-centent one.

>> It's so funny. I feel like we keep discovering that you and I are interacting with the same companies on different email threads. I mean, I'm I'm working with Superhum uh on their story right now. You're speaking at the

right now. You're speaking at the Superhuman suite about why dudes like you wear shoes that look like hooves these days. And we got all of our bases

these days. And we got all of our bases covered.

>> Your New Balances, I wanted to copy your New Balances. Yours look more like ho

New Balances. Yours look more like ho hooves, uh, which would seem to offer a lot of traction. Mine look more traditional dad shoe.

>> I'm on A6 right now. I'm on a bit of an A6 kick. Uh I do have New Balance that I

A6 kick. Uh I do have New Balance that I love, but um yeah, I just coped a couple A6 that I'm I'm really feeling.

>> How do they compare? I feel like that's definitely a convo in tech about what the best sneaker of the moment is now that Allirds are out, Adams are out.

>> Oh man. So Sam Alman wore these Lego limited editions that I saw in an interview and I was like, damn, those are sick. um they're multiolor, you

are sick. um they're multiolor, you know, the Lego colors and I looked them up on StockX and of course they're like $1,000. Um so I didn't get those, but

$1,000. Um so I didn't get those, but yes, uh I I'm getting into sneakers slowly. I'm trying to not get too into

slowly. I'm trying to not get too into it, but it's hard to not fall down the rabbit hole.

>> Are you noticing any other fashion trends in your travels to all corners [laughter] of the tech universe, or is it just still vests and and whatnot?

>> It's not. No, I mean I'll be curious to see what people are rocking in Austin.

>> Super puffer jackets.

>> Um I went to a southern themed party recently and got a black bandana. So

maybe I'll add that to whatever I'm wearing in Austin, you know, to keep it on theme. But yeah, no, otherwise uh

on theme. But yeah, no, otherwise uh going to try to play some Texas Holdm in Texas and uh have fun and uh going to go to a thing for Spotify and Tik Tok and I mean

you went to Southby back in the day, right? It's it's you remember the

right? It's it's you remember the madness of it. Yeah. I mean, gosh, it was more than 10 years ago at this point, and I remember it kind of being like a PR freefor-all more than anything

else. I mean, it's not clear why it

else. I mean, it's not clear why it exists. It just kind of spontaneously

exists. It just kind of spontaneously exists from year to year.

>> Uh, but enough of that, Ellis, I think I've gotten you Claude Pilled. Is that

Is that right?

>> You did. Yes. Uh, I realized I was kind of a a bad boy for not trying out all the different services because I need to know how they all work, what they're good at, how their tone differs.

uh how their context windows vary, all that good stuff. And yeah, I've been using Claude and really enjoying it. I

think it it certainly feels like more thoughtful and intellectual, which may not be for everybody, but for a a writer think boy like me definitely fits the bill. But maybe more important than

bill. But maybe more important than anything, it seems like instead of trying to build all their own apps the way that OpenAI and Chatgypt is, Cloud seems to be happy to work across your

apps, whether that is on the Mac app co-work that can access your local apps or through the Chrome extension that can access your tabs. That seems like it can

do more in my experience than um Atlas from from OpenAI, which seems like what is even going on with that anymore?

really. I've been meaning to retry Atlas. I'm actually kind of uh double

Atlas. I'm actually kind of uh double fisting Chachi BT and Claude right now to try to see where I want to land.

>> Yeah, I was using Atlas a month or so ago and I was like, can you do this stuff for me and download some statements for my taxes? And it's like, I don't know how to download. I'm like,

all right, bye.

>> AGI will know how to download.

>> I hope so. Um, but but but honestly, I mean, one of those things that I always wanted from computers over the last 20 years is just to help me with my like

OCD computer organizing. And now I've got Claude Co mining through 25 years of documents in my Google Drive, all the

gifts I've saved over the years of 500 different internet cats in my iCloud images folder. And it's just kind of a

images folder. And it's just kind of a pleasure. It seems obvious to me that AI

pleasure. It seems obvious to me that AI is going to be able to do this in any tab or any app in pretty short time. But

for now, this was kind of my first experience of uh having AI actually organize some stuff meaningfully for me.

And I do believe for most people kind of a killer use case.

>> I have so many things that I want to try with Claude Co-work and Cloud Code on my list >> such as >> well the custom CRM. Uh, I want it to

analyze my subscriber list for sources and try to infer the best it can where people work. Uh, better audience data

people work. Uh, better audience data that I can then use to inform what I do and the kind of brands that I work with.

You know, just a bunch of back office stuff that I'd love to automate. And

it's not perfect and from what I've seen it can often, you know, break. But I am hoping uh maybe this weekend between uh ski sessions that I'll get to spend some

time on that. Uh I actually got onboarded though uh this week to something that I'm very excited to play around with as well and have you get on too uh called Dreamer. Have you heard

about this?

>> I have. I have. Uh so it's a bunch of ex early Android uh OG people who built Android who have this new agent platform

startup and it's kind of like agents for normies. Our friend Joanna Stern uh also

normies. Our friend Joanna Stern uh also is an early user and has been trying it and >> the most normie of all of the reporters which if you're listening Joanna is a

compliment.

>> Joanna's more than normie. Come on. But

Dreamer is really interesting. It's like

I'm trying to describe it. Um, think

like a app store for agents or kind of like what Wabby was doing uh and is doing for mobile apps. Shout out uh Eugenia um early early guests. Uh but

for agents and no code is needed although you can code and see the code.

And what's cool is that it's a marketplace. So, if I make an agent, I

marketplace. So, if I make an agent, I can publish it and other Dreamer users can use it. And then when they use it, I actually get compensated as a percentage of the subscription revenue that they're

paying Dreamer and how they use the agent. They're still figuring that model

agent. They're still figuring that model out. Um, but I think that's a super cool

out. Um, but I think that's a super cool idea and it because it it incentivizes creation. And so the first uh agent I

creation. And so the first uh agent I installed was one that one of the co-founders, Hugo Bar, made uh where it's a calendar super prep agent where it goes through your calendar and fills

the metadata of each event with honestly pretty helpful uh overview of what the event is about based on the context of your email. You know, it obviously

your email. You know, it obviously ingests all your Google stuff. Um you

know, gives you like, you know, I'm about to do the interview with Liz for access. like here's your context with

access. like here's your context with Liz, here's what she does, that sort of thing. And then autogenerates an AI

thing. And then autogenerates an AI podcast that you can then create an agent to hook up to your Spotify to tell you about your day. Uh, which also is

the idea of like Hux, shout out Risa, another early access guest, and kind of doing it all in one place. Uh, where you can really make any agent and then have this chatbt- like interface around it

with all of your context, uh, not just what you tell chat. uh is super interesting. Uh so excited to play

interesting. Uh so excited to play around with that.

>> It's a compelling value prop uh especially for something that's separate. I mean the meeting prep thing

separate. I mean the meeting prep thing you described, I have been trying to painstakingly program uh my notion custom agent to do. But if somebody had

come up with the perfect template already, I could have just added that, which is kind of what you're describing instead of trying to to program it all myself, which is fun. editing all the

instructions, specifying your perfect format. But you could also guess that a

format. But you could also guess that a company like Dreamer, all the apps on that platform are kind of truly agnostic, you know, of all the different services and they prioritize trying to

make the most of each connection as opposed to, you know, trying to trying to keep you in their ecosystem. One

other thing that strikes me as kind of nice about Dreamer is that those guys uh have a whole lot of experience when it comes to highly secure products for

massive massive audiences. And and I do believe, you know, it's a problem with AI these days, whether it's with Open Clause we've talked about, or a lot of these startups, is that you don't know if your stuff is safe when you plug in

Gmail, when you plug in notion, when you plug in all these connectors. And so

while technically any startup can add all these same connectors, the growing number of connectors through an API or through M MCP or otherwise, um certainly feels good to know who's behind this

one.

>> Yeah, for sure. Uh, did you see this viral post of Airbnb co-founder Joe Gbia uh in some coffee shop in San Francisco

with what looks to be the same device that was in the viral fake Alexander Scarsgard Super Bowl commercial that we talked about recently? Did you see this?

>> Oh, I did. And I've been up all night thinking about it.

>> I don't have this totally confirmed, but my understanding is that this was a paid thing. I mean, it's pretty obvious when

thing. I mean, it's pretty obvious when you look at the video the way the camera like abruptly goes down at the end as if he's like, you know, getting seen and needs to hide that he's filming.

>> It's also at like the most freaking famous coffee shop in San Francisco sitting at the bar at Sight Glass. This

is no iPhone 4 left at the bar, >> right? Um, so my favorite theory that

>> right? Um, so my favorite theory that I've heard is that this is a very uh clever subtle marketing campaign from some kind of startup who is also asking

people on X uh through like marketing agencies to reply and boost this post.

And that to me suggests there is a startup that is doing this weird looking AI metallic orb device. People think

it's open AI. I don't think it is. Uh, I

don't think this is the Johnny IV way of launching a product at all. Uh, and I don't think this is what it will look like, but uh, you know, knock on wood, I guess I could be wrong, but I just want to know what startup this is that's

doing this.

>> It looks, for those who haven't seen it, the case looks quite a bit bigger than an AirPods case. And it kind of looks like a big stainless steel, like almost like modern clam, like literally a

clamshell with a little indentation to put your thumb. And then the earbuds are also stainless steel. And instead of only going in your ears, they have a bar that almost like a piece of jewelry that

that you know some people might wear as earrings wraps around the back of of your ear. I think some people were

your ear. I think some people were speculating it was like bone conduction or something like that. I don't know. I

honestly don't appreciate these types of stunts. [laughter]

stunts. [laughter] I really don't.

>> We'll see. We'll see if it ever >> It's just cuz I don't know how to make them for companies. Um

>> all right. Well, this week we have our second Google executive on the show. Uh,

we had Samir Samat, the head of Android on, who was actually one of our best performing episodes. So, the pressure is

performing episodes. So, the pressure is on for dut Liz Reed, the head of search at Google. Uh, I've known Liz for a

at Google. Uh, I've known Liz for a little bit. I actually interviewed her

little bit. I actually interviewed her recently at the IAB publisher conference. Uh, she had to tell a room

conference. Uh, she had to tell a room full of publishers uh why Google wasn't destroying them, and I got to uh moderate that conversation. And so that was that was fun. Um maybe not as fun

for her [laughter] as this episode of Access, but uh that was where I last saw her. Uh Liz is a really interesting uh

her. Uh Liz is a really interesting uh figure in tech. I mean she obviously runs search which is I don't know we were talking about this in interview maybe the most influential software

product of all time. Certainly,

>> she kept it real, I thought. I mean, I wasn't super familiar with her, but for a 20 year Google veteran, I was expecting like, you know, a lot of a lot

of scriptedness, but it's interesting.

She seems like a true Googler, almost like a scientist who's just working on problems they love. And so,

>> I appreciated her uh >> cander >> with an incredibly important job and an incredibly unique vantage point on the industry. So, yeah, it was great to have

industry. So, yeah, it was great to have Liz on. Uh, let's uh let's throw it to

Liz on. Uh, let's uh let's throw it to Liz.

>> Sounds good.

>> Hello, Liz.

>> Hello. How are you doing?

>> I don't think Alex even realized you joined.

>> That's all right.

>> You snuck right in.

>> I I Well, I understand sometimes how these things go where like if you're not careful, you've got three other tabs covering the space and you're waiting and you're distracted and then people come.

>> Yeah. How's your Chrome looking right now? How many tabs uh are in the row?

now? How many tabs uh are in the row?

Are we grouping? Are we uh a pro at this?

>> Not not very many at the moment. So

hopefully it doesn't crash. That'll be

the That'll be the goal.

>> When Ellis and I were waiting for you to get on just now, we were just saying like, gosh, you've got to be in backtobacks all day long. Is that like every day for you?

>> Uh I try I always try to make sure I have some thinking time and some email time. But yes, to a first approximation,

time. But yes, to a first approximation, there's a there's a lot of a lot of conversations um on a quite a wide range of different topics, too. It'll be like, "Let's go brainstorm this product question. Let's brainstorm the future.

question. Let's brainstorm the future.

Let's fix this current product. Let's go

talk about legal. Let's go talk with you all." Um, I just we just celebrated

all." Um, I just we just celebrated someone on my team who's been 20 years at Google right before this. So, that

was kind of fun.

>> Oh my goodness. Did they get a special treat or a new type of hat for Google Legends?

>> I mean, we do a few things for them, but yes.

>> Yeah. 20 years is quite a long time. I

mean, that's that's about your tenure as well right?

>> I am. Yes. 22 and a half maybe now.

>> Oh my goodness. I know you've moved around a bit, but uh I was at at Snapchat in the early days for uh almost eight years and I feel like for every year you're there, you're attached to

one more permanent recurring meeting as you sit in and try and do things. I

mean, even like how does your inbox look these days? I feel like the longer

these days? I feel like the longer you've been at a company, the more in disarray it can be. Well, I I um I switched a few years ago from geo to search. So, that that created a reset on

search. So, that that created a reset on most of the the meetings and um and the inbox. Um there's lots of exciting

inbox. Um there's lots of exciting things. And then we have new features

things. And then we have new features like AI overviews in Gmail that you can play with and and uh hopefully help make some of it easier, but it's a good it's a good place for AI to improve my productivity. There's lots of

productivity. There's lots of opportunities there.

>> You were super early at Google. You were

one of the first female engineers. Is

that right? Uh, I was the um in the New York office. I was the first female

York office. I was the first female engineer, but not not in the company for sure. Um, I think there were I don't

sure. Um, I think there were I don't know less than 2,000 people when I joined. I don't know if it was like

joined. I don't know if it was like 1,000 or 1,200 or something like that.

Um, but the New York office was 10 engineersish when I joined.

>> It's rare to work at a place for that long. I feel like especially now, I feel

long. I feel like especially now, I feel like uh millennials and Gen Z are used to job switching and and hopping around a lot. And it's kind of how things work.

a lot. And it's kind of how things work.

And I'm curious, >> it's interesting because I joined when I joined Google, right? Like I I didn't come from a family with with tech background. Like my mother was a math

background. Like my mother was a math teacher, my dad was selling insurance.

Um and so like in my mind, people didn't change like and I was from a small town, right? Um and so people didn't change

right? Um and so people didn't change jobs all the time growing up. And I

started at Google and people like, "Yeah, you know, generally in tech you're only at a company for like one to two years." And I was like, "What? What

two years." And I was like, "What? What

is this? what is this concept that I'm just not familiar with? But that was the expectation they set is I'd probably be there a couple years and then move on.

And uh you know, it's been 10 times that since.

>> Well, I was gonna say, what what's been keeping you there for over two decades?

There's got to be something besides money, of course, besides Google stock.

>> No, I mean, I think there's like three things I generally care about, I find.

Um, one, I want to work with like um people I enjoy working. I tend to work hard. Um, I spend a lot of time I would

hard. Um, I spend a lot of time I would like to it be people I respect. I feel

like I can learn from um, you know, it's um, intimidating and fun to feel like you're not the smartest person in the room most of the time, right? Um, on the thing and in fact you're maybe one of

the least smart people in the room, right? So like that that sense of of

right? So like that that sense of of energizing but that people really want to create great things I think is one.

Um, the second thing that the mission of the projects I've been on has really resonated. Um, so I was on Google Maps

resonated. Um, so I was on Google Maps for a long time. Now I'm on search, right? These are these are products that

right? These are these are products that not just billions of people use, but they turn to for things that matter, right? It's not just this is just a job.

right? It's not just this is just a job.

It's okay. People now use this so that they don't get lost. Like when I started, this is hard for for some Gen Z to understand, but like we grew up in a world where like if if you made a wrong turn or you went to own thing, you might

be like stuck wandering around. I

remember printing Map Quest uh directions to get to Disney. [laughter]

>> When I first started, there wasn't Map Quest, right? There wasn't even Map

Quest, right? There wasn't even Map Quest. There was an atlas in the back of

Quest. There was an atlas in the back of your car and you know that was what you hoped you did and otherwise you stopped at a gas station, right? Um so the freeing power of being in this world where like you can go to a strange

country that you don't even speak the language of and navigate, right? Like

what does that unlock? Um, now you have a thing where people turn to search for like their fun trivia and they turn to it for their health questions and they turn to it like to figure out how they educate themselves on a new skill or

learn something and that's kind of very inspiring. And then the last thing I

inspiring. And then the last thing I like is I like challenges, right? Like

if I you know you can always learn but like there's different levels of learning. Um so over the years when I

learning. Um so over the years when I got sort of um most asking the question about was I going to stay it was never about the mission. It was never about the people. I always really like them.

the people. I always really like them.

It was like am I challenging myself or not? And I but I found a a place to

not? And I but I found a a place to change within Google that put me a little bit in the deep end. Um

definitely still the case these days with the how fast the world is changing.

But I like that sense of uh learn to to swim and and face the challenge.

>> Well, thank you for Google Maps uh because my first and only car accident was trying to read a map quest printout [laughter] when I was 16 years old.

rearended the crap out of somebody, was quaking in my boots, had to call my dad.

Hi, Dad. I know you're listening out there. Thanks for coming that day to

there. Thanks for coming that day to help deal with that for me.

Um, and now it's just such a fact of life. And I mean, I think that raises,

life. And I mean, I think that raises, you know, an interesting question that we wanted to talk about is for these products like maps and search and and and otherwise that people have made such

a part of daily life. How are you all thinking about bringing AI into this stuff? I mean, people have such

stuff? I mean, people have such expectations for what these products are, and I think we all know that nobody likes when their furniture gets moved around, when you keep putting new things at the top of the page, when new

features come out. And I feel like Google search has remained pretty pretty solid in its vision for like what this perfect experience is. And I feel like whether it's with knowledge graph or AI,

that's kind of getting shaken up right now. Um, how do you guys think about the

now. Um, how do you guys think about the pace of of introducing those things? I

know there's a lot of pressure from the market to just go fast fast.

>> Um, so I I guess a couple a couple of things. Um, one, I do think it's like

things. Um, one, I do think it's like easy to think about search as sort of somewhat static be before AI. But

actually, if you go back in time, like the knowledge graph was a big thing and it was, you know, over 10 years ago. And

like, you know, sometimes if you go and you do a print out for for people about like what search used to look like 10 years ago, they're like, "What? Like,

what is this product?" Right? You sort

of forget how it how it changes over time. Um, across we introduce things

time. Um, across we introduce things like lens and voice and all all different along ones. I do think we try and take that responsibility very seriously. Okay. Like it is um it's not

seriously. Okay. Like it is um it's not just like nobody likes the furniture, but um like people are using it in a way that they rely on, right? And so you don't want to make it hard. Um but also

there's just tremendous opportunity and so you think about how to balance it. So

I think we um you know first did this with SG okay we want to go figure out how we allow early adopters and they can opt in and then we brought it to AI overviews but we did it amidst the SER.

Um when we introduced AI mode we didn't like swap everybody over from SER to AI mode. we made it possible to enter along

mode. we made it possible to enter along and so trying to allow people to sort of participate more and more as as they're

ready in in different ways. I have been surprised by how fast people like um uh appreciated AI overviews, started using

AI overviews, just started searching more, right? Um I think it's um for many

more, right? Um I think it's um for many people in the world, not necessarily in your circles, but like AI overviews is how they've experienced AI sort of first

and primarily in their life, right?

>> Are you accusing me of not hanging out with normies? Well, [laughter]

with normies? Well, [laughter] >> cuz I sometimes do. I sometimes do.

>> I make no accusations, but I feel like sometimes in Silicon Valley, we live in a world where, you know, you're surrounded and then I go back to my home in, you know, New Hampshire and, you know, it's a very different it's a very

different environment. Um, and so this

different environment. Um, and so this is often how people en encounter it. Um,

but I think for a lot of it when we when we do our job right, it's so intuitive and and and it sort of opens up things that they couldn't do previously that they just start doing it right and and

they start adapting it. Um, so we saw people use search more with AI overviews and we saw it much more quickly than we generally do. We always sort of assume

generally do. We always sort of assume to your point about moving furniture that there's a learning effect. It takes

time. You unlock something, how long does it take for people to figure out how it works? Does it work? Does it even exist? I think if I gave, you know, even

exist? I think if I gave, you know, even Googlers a survey of what are all the features in search and I threw in like a few fake ones and asked them could I identify the fake ones, I'm not sure they would all be able to identify which

ones were fake and which ones were real um because there's so much possibility, but people really picked up um with AI overviews very quickly. Um and that was really it was really delightful to see.

>> When you took over search, it was a really critical time for Google. People

were going, you know, oh, CHACHBT is going to eat searches lunch. This is all zero sum. Uh, Google's in trouble. And

zero sum. Uh, Google's in trouble. And

here you go. You raise your hand. You're

over on maps, which is just kind of cruising along. And I feel like has just

cruising along. And I feel like has just been on this consistent upward trajectory in terms of uh importance to the world. You're like, "Yeah, I'll go

the world. You're like, "Yeah, I'll go take this challenge." I've never actually heard you talk about that. What

was that like deciding to go take on Search at that moment? Because I imagine there was just a tremendous amount of pressure. you you've got to secretly

pressure. you you've got to secretly kind of love the pressure I think to take that job in that moment.

>> Well, so actually so actually um I moved to search before um that moment but the search was sort of in a few different pieces. I moved actually um I don't know

pieces. I moved actually um I don't know a year into COVID maybe which was but was a different time of pressure and others like you you join a new team and you can't meet any of the people in

person right like you know for all of these years a whole bunch of how you go and you build relationships and you meet people in person I had grown up with the maps team for years and years and years um they knew me the people under and

then I'm like hi I'm your new you know manager your new leader sorry you can't see me in person for for months I switched in part because like candidly my boss was like I would like you to do

this job but like how do you say how do you say no to search right it's like people will sometimes say like you know how do you say no if somebody asked you to do the thing not just a beloved product but kind of like the essence of what Google was about

>> I mean it's definitely top three most influential internet products of all time maybe maybe arguably the most >> you called it even like the one of the best businesses of all time last night

on the phone Alex and I was like whoa actually yeah Yeah, I think I think it was um like both tremendously exciting and tremendously intimidating to like

move and be leading a big part of search and then to take on uh to your point then when I got asked to take on all of search um sort of in the middle of of this time it's a lot of responsibility

right like you have multiple billion people using this product every day [laughter] has been iconic for the last 25 years and you're like I am going to shepherd it and you know I'm going to hope I'm

going to are Are you satisfied with your impact, Liz, that you're affecting multiple billions per day?

>> To be very clear, my team will tell you, I am never satisfied, right? Um I am always a person who's like, "Oh, but you know, here's what could be. Here's what

the opportunities. Here's how I could do better." Um that's a

better." Um that's a >> I just love how all the tech companies are like, "Come to our company and you could have big impact. we have one employee for every five million users or

something like that >> for Google. That's a that's a crazier ratio. Even though you guys have a lot

ratio. Even though you guys have a lot of employees, it's still a crazy ratio.

[laughter] >> It's like actually so like my town that I grew up in for for much of my childhood is is 900 people. Okay. I had

a bunch of cousins. It's not like I had never left the town, but like it is mindboggling to work in tech with this idea that what you do it

touches it touches people halfway around the world and like it also touches your mother, right? Like if you don't do a

mother, right? Like if you don't do a good job with this then your mother like my mother is a very kind person, okay?

But like like like she's entrusting a bunch of choices like how well what does search tell her, right? Um, and

that that is a it's a big responsibility, but it's also a big opportunity. Like everybody I know,

opportunity. Like everybody I know, nobody I know is like I am bored. I have

don't know what to do with my time. I,

you know, wish I had more work to do, right? Like like people have a lot of

right? Like like people have a lot of things they have to do in their life and a lot of things they'd like to do if they could find more time, right? How do

you navigate search so that you can help people enjoy the things they want to do and get rid of a bunch of the stuff they don't? Um, and to me that's a very

don't? Um, and to me that's a very fulfilling thing.

>> My four-year-old says she's bored constantly.

>> Okay. Four-year-olds do. I do I do agree with you that like 10 like four-year-olds my my children sometimes tell me they're bored, but none of the adults I know feel bored. Um, but the children feel bored. Yeah.

>> Last time we saw each other, you were telling me actually your kids are frequently telling you to fix things uh in search. So, you also have to be tech

in search. So, you also have to be tech support for your kids. They do give me bugs and they're, you know, they send and and the ones. And then my daughter tells me I should dog food my product. I

was like, I'm pretty sure I'm doing that every once. But she's like, you ask this

every once. But she's like, you ask this question. You should just use your

question. You should just use your product and see how it does. And I was like, okay, yes, I understand. Um,

[laughter] >> speaking of kids though, I feel like, do you remember those moments early on in Google where everybody was accusing Google of outsourcing all of our brains and all our knowledge and what's going

to happen to children and their minds when they don't have to use a calculator anymore, lawn division, they could find everything on Google and that just kind of came and went. And do you feel like

it's any different this time around with AI?

>> Yes and no. Um, I think there's always this question about like are we still teaching people to think, right? Um, and

I don't think creating tools means that there's no opportunity to think. It just

means that we need to like make sure when we're teaching people to think that we're that we sort of are aware that the that the tools exist, right? Um, I got this feedback about Google Maps, by the way. like people can't like on the one

way. like people can't like on the one hand people have lost the ability to navigate using you know just their memory and their towns as much um on that on the other hand like you freed

people to explore the world >> I've been living in LA for 5 years I do not know the difference between the 101 and the five because I literally never look at highways or roads

>> we lost some skill but but as a result you unlock to new things. Okay. Um, I

think what's a little different with AI is it's it's changing quickly enough that there's a little bit of this challenge of like um do do teachers know how like do we know how to help teach

kids in the presence of these tools?

Like calculators didn't kind of go from like nowhere to like in everybody's hands overnight. Um, and so you could

hands overnight. Um, and so you could sort of think about that. And so I think um, you know, whatever tools they are when done well, they allow you to do harder tasks, right? they allow you to

put your critical thinking on even more difficult things um done poorly you're asking people to do things the tools can already do and then

you know people cheat right um uh in different ways and so I think the challenge for society is to figure out how are we using the tools to push what we can do even more um not to replace

thinking but to use it for the next task >> it's funny because I know the Google famous interview questions which I know have changed a lot over the years you ostensibly were a way to test your thinking and your reasoning. I mean,

what do those even look like in five years?

>> Well, five years is feels like an eternity. Now, I talk about some of them

eternity. Now, I talk about some of them and let's do two and a half.

>> Um, you know, I think in in a s well even two and a half years feel like if you go back two and a half years ago, like do you know where we were two and a half years ago? Right. [laughter]

Okay. Like go back in time.

>> Alex didn't even have a newsletter back then >> on that thing, right? you know that was the biggest that was the biggest change in the world in in the last two and a half years for sure. Um I think I think

the questions though are a lot about like continue to be can you think through can you reason can you use tools effectively it's not like we asked you know software engineers when I started

can you do assembly language right like you weren't expected to use assembly language you weren't expected to write code without an ID you could use an ID okay now how do you collaborate

effectively with AI right and so I think those questions are not sort of pretend there's no AI but can you do thoughtfully? Can you use it to

thoughtfully? Can you use it to orchestrate? Can you can you understand

orchestrate? Can you can you understand how to debug things? Um can you think through what things to consider? Right?

If you assume that the tools get much better but that they're per imperfect, do you have the reasoning to look for where they might be imperfect? And I

think that's how those questions evolve.

And that can be in software engineering or it can be in product management or it can be in data science, right? Like you

what's you know you can offload the easy questions on data analysis. What are the hard questions? a bit of a galaxy brain

hard questions? a bit of a galaxy brain question that just came to me. Are you

guys talking about internally a future where maybe agents are the ones crawling Google the most on behalf of humans and like it's not humans going to Google but

but agents will be. Do you think that'll happen?

>> Well, I certainly think the there will be a world in which sort of agents are doing a lot of um interaction on the internet, not just people. Okay.

Um I personally don't believe in a world where it's all agents, right? Um in the sense that I like I still think that that people sometimes want, you know, want to hear directly from other people.

Like it's different, you know, do I want to go and say like Ellis, please tell me what Alex says or would I just be like, "Alex, what did you say?" Right? Like

it's not always fun to be disintermediated, right? You often want

disintermediated, right? You often want to hear from the the source directly.

Um, but the fact that you can kick off 10 agents and you have limited time and the agents don't necessarily, I do think probably means there's a world in which

a lot of um, agents are talking with each other um, and not just with humans going forward as we evolve.

>> And does that impact Google positively or negatively? Search

or negatively? Search >> I think that's all about how we all navigate the innovation space, right?

Like I think done right, it impacts it positively, right? Okay. Like search

positively, right? Okay. Like search

enables um people to do harder tasks and search is a great tool other people can use um and agents can use and what does that look like? I think we'll have to figure out um but

I think Google has a long history of saying the world keeps changing. I mean,

mobile was a, this may be hard to believe now, but at the time when mobile came, mobile was like this big question for Google. Like, Google was a desktop

for Google. Like, Google was a desktop product and could it navigate and oh my gosh, the screen was smaller and are there going to be any ads and is the whole business going to fall apart, right? I mean, like this was a

right? I mean, like this was a >> this was a major question when mobile came out and the company ended up stronger through it because it it rallied to the moment. Um and I think we

are at heart a tech company and this is a time when tech is flourishing in terms like like tech is a technology right as to like what is its core DNA is being great at using technology um and this is

a time when the technology is being amazing. So if we all do our job right

amazing. So if we all do our job right um I think Google will do well as it navigates it. Yeah, I work with a lot of

navigates it. Yeah, I work with a lot of startups um for most of the week in my work at meaning and one of the tried

andrue startup arguments to investors press otherwise is that we are going to be able to move or act more quickly than the incumbents and a lot of times it's

Google or Microsoft or Apple. Um, but it it feels like in some ways that y'all have really kicked yourselves into gear and accelerated the pace over the last

few years. Is that just my perception or

few years. Is that just my perception or or was there kind of a a critical moment internally where it's like, uh, AI is happening. Let's go. [laughter]

happening. Let's go. [laughter]

>> Um, uh, I don't know that I would say it's a like a single moment. I think you have a series of moments that build. I

mean, I think Sundar started talking about this is going to be in, you know, an AI company. I don't know how many years before some of these things come.

Um but I do think what sort of has like been accelerating is um what's possible with the tools and what are the opportunities, right? Like the the the

opportunities, right? Like the the the technology is getting so much better faster, right? It's not that in some of

faster, right? It's not that in some of these cases people didn't build demos 5 years ago. is they built the demo and

years ago. is they built the demo and like it didn't really work and it was really hard and it was going to take like 20 engineers two years to tune it

to try and get that and like what used to be 20 engineers sometimes that that task now you can have one engineer do in

in less time right um and so um I think that really unlocked like so a bunch of the search engineers have been in search a long time like 10

The number of like 20 year old 20-y year anniversaries we celebrate every quarter is kind of mindboggling to me, right?

Sometimes like these engineers and product folks had these ideas 15 years ago and they didn't work and they had the ideas 10 years and then they had the ideas five years and then you like try

it and it's like whoa, it works now, right? Like that's that's energizing and

right? Like that's that's energizing and and that energy builds on top of it, right? Like when you see that you try

right? Like when you see that you try something and it works, when you see that you can move faster, it makes you want to move faster because like we all we all want our time to like be valuable, right? For it to have impact.

valuable, right? For it to have impact.

Like if we're going to work, you want it to reap rewards. And I think um it's energizing to people to see that um it feels like they're not optimizing as

much. They're inventing.

much. They're inventing.

>> Any examples of those things that were thought of 15 years ago that are only possible now? I mean, I was thinking of

possible now? I mean, I was thinking of Google Duplex being able to call places for you and make reservations. I mean,

that was an agent before we called it an agent. Now, it's actually possible.

agent. Now, it's actually possible.

>> So, I would say uh that that's a good example where it was an an agent before we called an agent and we could do very few verticals with a lot a lot of work, right? And now our ability, you know,

right? And now our ability, you know, it's like okay, you had this whole team that worked on it for this one thing for many many months and now the rate at which we can expand. I think like with the recent launch of personal

intelligence. I mean if you go back long

intelligence. I mean if you go back long enough at Google, we tried to do this effort in which we were putting more personal content and using it to leverage, but I don't think it felt like

it unlocked it in in different ways. Um

I think people had played with I mean LLM had been in search long before we had M, we had BERT and then we had Mum.

Um, but they were mostly used um in limited use cases because the quality wasn't good enough. Um, the

speed wasn't good enough, right? Like

you can't you can't go be like, "Guess what? I can do this thing that's better,

what? I can do this thing that's better, but you have to go wait 20 seconds."

Like people people on search are sensitive to 100 millisecond difference, right? Like they will search more or

right? Like they will search more or less for 100 milliseconds, right? Um, so

you had to get the tech to the point where like, wait a sec, if you did this online [snorts] it was fast enough for people and it was

good enough for people to be net better.

>> Are Bert and Mum the search goats who've been there for 20 years or those technologies?

>> Uh, Bert and Mum are search technologies.

>> There's probably a Bert inside.

>> I'm sure there is a Bert somewhere in the company and possibly in search. uh

on the ones uh yes there are a lot of uh IC's on a first-name basis but BERT and mum are are technologies um they were sort of early uses of of LLM but they were mostly on the ranking side because when we tried to do it on the UI side we

couldn't get it fast enough and high enough quality um so if we did something we were going to do it offline sort of pre-processed um going forward um I think lens when it first started was

like kind of cool but like didn't work most of the time and now it feels like you just take for granted that you can like take a picture of a shoe and get the right particular Nike model and not

just oh this is a Nike shoe, right? Like

those those things weren't possible years ago. So I think there's I mean I

years ago. So I think there's I mean I think they're just all over the place um of what's possible. But sometimes it's not just the big things, it's just the little things. Like I tried to make this

little things. Like I tried to make this thing work internationally, I couldn't.

One of the one that's been most excited to me is um in the US we think of like well most content you care about is on the web. If you're in India and you

the web. If you're in India and you speak Hindi, let alone you speak a different dialect or language, right?

Like no, the information is not all on the web, right? Um certainly not in your language. Okay? And it used to be like,

language. Okay? And it used to be like, oh, what are we going to do? Are we

going to try and translate all the content on the web into all the languages?

That's not scalable. Um but now with an LLM, you can take information in one language, understand it, and then output in another language. Like that opens up information.

>> The YouTube autodubbing I think is incredible. Like I've been watching a

incredible. Like I've been watching a lot more international videos. Yeah.

>> Right. Like and that you know. Okay.

Well, were you going to learn how to speak all those languages? Were you

going to hire somebody in in a hundred languages or even 10 languages to dub your thing? No. You weren't going to be

your thing? No. You weren't going to be able to scale that. Um so I think that ability to like unlock content to, you know, everyone, not just speakers of

languages, is fascinating. um and it means we have a lot more impact um in a great way and helping people around the world.

>> Google is a large company and I don't think people from the outside fully understand the difference between what your team is doing and what Demis and the Gemini team are doing and how you

guys work together and also how you have different directions that you're going.

Uh I remember when you and I spoke at the IAB conference recently, you told me that Gemini has a different northstar than search. I think that was what you

than search. I think that was what you said. Um, can you explain what that

said. Um, can you explain what that means? Because from the outside it looks

means? Because from the outside it looks like AI mode and Gemini are converging on each other pretty fast.

>> So it's interesting. So maybe to just start with Demis' team. Um, Demis has like obviously different sub teams under them. Um, one of them is um, Karay's

them. Um, one of them is um, Karay's team which is working on the underlying model and then there's teams like that are working on the Gemini app which is sort of what you're working on them. Um

and the way we work with them is is um uh sort of a little bit different than that, right? Like we're we're sharing a

that, right? Like we're we're sharing a lot of the underlying model and technology. Um and so we work very

technology. Um and so we work very closely with the teams on the model. Um

and we'll work direct like birectionally. So like number one,

birectionally. So like number one, they'll here's a new model, here's what's now possible, like how do you want to use it? But we'll also go and be like, okay, I understand you have this lovely benchmark, but let me tell you

what it looks like in practice. Like you

know, 80% may seem awesome on a benchmark. You can't be wrong one in

benchmark. You can't be wrong one in five times in terms of not showing people the sports score. Like if they ask for the sports score, they want to see the sports car 100% of the time. So

>> you're popping a lot of AI researcher bubbles. It sounds like it's

bubbles. It sounds like it's [clears throat and laughter] like Google.

>> There's a lot of give and take about the reality of you know what what does it take to build a product that like people can rely on and build. And so like we push we push each other in a bunch of ways. Um I think with Josh's team um we

ways. Um I think with Josh's team um we share some of the some same underlying technologies. We share ideas. Um, but

technologies. We share ideas. Um, but

they do have different north stars and and what I was saying at the other one is like Gemini's focus is on on sort of being this assistant and so it tends to

lean in um more heavily on things like productivity or creation, right? Ones um

search is more information based um and it believes um that often in those information use cases you also want to connect and hear from other people. Um

and so how do you bring out the web? And

so we we sort of focus on making those two things awesome. But then like you you can't um it never works to go tell people this product can only be used for

this or that and then like hope that they understand, right? Like people will come to the product and do whatever they want. Okay. Um and if you take a

want. Okay. Um and if you take a non-archgeemini example, people come to YouTube for things that you might think to come and search. Especially like in

India, the YouTube versus search usage is very different than in the US, right?

How people use them. Um, so you kind of have to meet users where they are. If

they come to your product and they want to use these things, then you should make it possible. Um, and we want the capabilities to be used. You take something like Gem

um, Nano Banana, which in um, its first version felt like mostly sort of fun for creativity and and doing that. Nano

Banana 2 allows like really good infographics. Okay. Well, infographics

infographics. Okay. Well, infographics

is back into the information space.

Okay. So, how are we going to use that to convey, right? Um and so we think about as like sharing some of the capabilities but building excellence um in in key areas if that makes sense.

>> Do you think they ever converge and just become one thing or do they always stay separate? Because I guess if I if I ask

separate? Because I guess if I if I ask Gemini a question and I ask AI mode or AI overview a question and I get the same answer, then why why do they both exist?

>> I I don't know the answer is is the short answer. Um I think what we see is

short answer. Um I think what we see is some areas they're converging more and some areas they're diverging more, right? And like and so what are they

right? And like and so what are they going to net out? Like do the areas that diverged eventually all come or do the areas that diverge become even bigger um over time? I think we'll see. Um I think

over time? I think we'll see. Um I think you know if you ask a math question we should give you this the same answer you know to a first approximation but but even in a math question you know we've

started to experiment more with not just um you know links in the product but like videos in the product. So in in search, you might expect to get like

great video tutorials from like those cool teachers that make those concepts, you know, memorable, right? And so you'd still want to answer if they ask the question, but maybe we're going to

encourage you to take the next step a little bit differently um than that. I

think with some of the verticals we're seeing how they go um and there's sort of some not complete divergence, but but you know, how do you experience it? What

needs to be quick and easy? Um, how do you want to surface the web? I think is an area that we're

the web? I think is an area that we're still very early on and ripe for exploration. We've started to do more

exploration. We've started to do more things with things like inline links.

Um, you know, how do you quote and allow people to dive deeper into that? Um, so

I don't know in in all honesty, but I think we are right now at a point where um depending on what angle you look at, you'd think they're getting closer or they're getting further apart. And so

we'll see. It's it's not AI mode has not been out like for um general use for a year yet. Um like we sometimes I

year yet. Um like we sometimes I sometimes forget this maybe the world like it's relatively new and so um and even Gemini app given how um quickly the

world is evolving. It's changing a lot.

Um and so I think we'll have to see and then like who knows maybe agents will mean like the right product is neither of the two of them is a third product altogether um that they merge into. Um I

don't know yet. So to be totally frank, uh I spend a lot of my AI time on Chat GBT or Claude or other various types of services. And I've kind of kept my

services. And I've kind of kept my googling to like the stuff I've always Googled, song lyrics, pictures of Tom Cruz and other celebrities. Like that's

what Google is kind of about in my mind.

Is there an effort to kind of get those 800 million chat GP tiers back to Google Google or is it kind of about the next 5 billion more so?

>> Well, I I guess I would say a couple of things. Um I think most

things. Um I think most >> feel free to tell me I don't matter because that's a very valid business strategy.

>> What I'm actually going to tell you what I actually tell you if you use your example is you're still using Google.

Okay. And so like what's interesting in many of these cases is that um the the sort of balance of how people are using

multiple tools um is is actually like sort of really evolving, right? Um I

think if you go back uh some amount of time last year, where did most people do image generation and what was considered like the place people went to for image generation and where do people do a lot of image generation now? It's like

changed a few times about where the centers are. And so I think right now

centers are. And so I think right now we're in this world where it's very fluid like people's habits are not solidified across um you know you essentially listed

two other products you're using besides search so you you haven't picked a single one and you're still using search in some cases and whatever else right and I think that's just indicative of where the world is. It's it's still figuring out. I don't know, by the way,

figuring out. I don't know, by the way, that we're going to end up in a world where there's only one product, right?

Like I think you also saw this with um you know, okay, people be like, "Oh, social media, there's going to be one winner." Okay, well you've got YouTube

winner." Okay, well you've got YouTube shorts and you've got Instagram reels and you've got Tik Tok, right? But

actually the space that although there's three of them there, the space is much bigger than any of them were at any time, right? like the pie has really

time, right? like the pie has really grown and I think that's what we're generally seeing in the industry is people are using the tools collectively much more and so there's a lot of growth. Um but I think what we mostly

growth. Um but I think what we mostly try and do as like I don't think we think of it as like the next 5 billion or the 800 million in like that simplistic way. It's really like what

simplistic way. It's really like what feels best in class with the market.

Where are the growth? Where are the things that people aren't even thinking about? Um how do you just really live up

about? Um how do you just really live up to the the mission and help people with as much as possible and then teach people about what's possible? a a a great thing about search and a hard

thing about search is um most people use it, therefore most people think they know how to use it, right? Um and so there's this interesting um thing in

search and teaching somebody like you unlock this feature today.

>> Oh yeah. I mean in startup terms it's a great wedge. Like I think a lot of

great wedge. Like I think a lot of people don't even know what they would ask chat GPT or even what it can do quite yet. And if you just kind of start

quite yet. And if you just kind of start revealing that stuff through Google, I mean, I'm very receptive to like the idea or hypothesis that Google may actually win out here given all the

existing use cases where people are asking questions. Now the answers are

asking questions. Now the answers are just going to get dramatically better, more informed, better cited, all that stuff.

>> Well, but yeah, Ellis, there's also your behavior that you talked about and like, you know, Liz, my wife Khloe is a is a chat addict. Every time I look at her

chat addict. Every time I look at her phone or laptop, it's Chachi BT. And I

just asked her the other day ahead of this interview. I was like, "How much do

this interview. I was like, "How much do you use Google nowadays since I got you hooked on Chachi BT over the last six months?" And she's like, "Maybe 10% as

months?" And she's like, "Maybe 10% as much." Uh, I use it to fact check the AI

much." Uh, I use it to fact check the AI a lot. Um, [laughter]

a lot. Um, [laughter] but um, she's definitely not doing those kind of >> use case factecking in-depth um, highly

monetizable searches that she was. And

there is probably a decent chunk of your most highly monetizable, you know, users in North America and Europe that are that have shifted their behavior that way. Uh maybe not, but I'm just wonder I

way. Uh maybe not, but I'm just wonder I mean obviously like Google's doing very well financially, but yeah, >> like the space is just growing rapidly, right? Um there's it's it's really weird

right? Um there's it's it's really weird for people to think about in that they they most people think they're asking the tools they're using all of the questions they could think of. And so

like everything is zero sum. But that's

that's actually not what happens, right?

Um you kind of go through this calculus without even realizing it, which is like I had this question first of all, do I even realize I could get the answer? And

then if I realize I could get the answer, is it worth my time? Like is it going to work? Is it not? Do I have like is it hard to ask? Is it not? Um and so I think what we're seeing is like

simultaneously people are adopting more tools and search is growing, right?

because the the possibility of the tech is just allowing many more questions.

Um, and so I think the space is just getting much much bigger. Um, and if you think about that like when you didn't have a mobile phone and the only time you asked questions online was when you were at a desktop and you booted up your

desktop and by the way you had to hope that nobody else in the household was on the computer at the time you wanted to ask the question. You just didn't ask the question. Um, and I think we're

the question. Um, and I think we're seeing the bar get lower and lower. And

so the amount of questions people are asking, the tasks that they would have struggled with that now instead of struggling with, they ask for help, right? Like

right? Like people use the tools to help them rewrite an an email. They didn't

previously use a tool. They just

struggle with it and bang their head and spend 20 minutes trying to write the email and now they ask for help and write the email faster. Um, so I think we just think the space is growing very very rapidly. I think there's also one

very rapidly. I think there's also one thing that we haven't discussed yet, which is when you think about what is likely to make your first AI experience or retentive AI experience good. It is

if it gets you right. And I think you could argue that Google has better context on you than any other company.

Um what what are your thoughts on that and bringing that stuff to the four? Uh

is that creepy for people or is that magical? And do you have more context

magical? And do you have more context than anybody else? Well, there are there are several billion people in the world.

I don't think we can make a statement about do we have more context than everybody for every person in the world by any stretch. Um, but I do think in a bunch of cases we do know uh um uh you know the systems know a bunch and AI's

ability to parse it together is doing that. I think personal intelligence was

that. I think personal intelligence was was like one of our first steps there, right? Um and I think it's um it can be

right? Um and I think it's um it can be really um delightful and surprising sometimes what it gets, right? So, I had um I had a co-orker who asked he was like stuck in the airport for like a few

hours and he's like, "What should I do?"

And I was like, "Well, given this passion, there's this cool store at this terminal and by the way, you need to leave 40 minutes ahead and this credit card actually lets you get into this lounge, right?" Like a bunch of things

lounge, right?" Like a bunch of things that he wouldn't have even thought to ask. Um and it wasn't just like a basic

ask. Um and it wasn't just like a basic recommendation, right? It wasn't like,

recommendation, right? It wasn't like, you know, which restaurant should I eat at, right? Um so, I think it can be very

at, right? Um so, I think it can be very delightful. One of the things we did as

delightful. One of the things we did as part of it was that it is a deliberate consent. You have to opt in. Okay? Like

consent. You have to opt in. Okay? Like

we don't want to do it to people. If you

want your information siloed, you should be able to keep the information separate. Um but if you want that value,

separate. Um but if you want that value, we shouldn't be like, well, you might not want the value, so sorry, Ellis, you can't get it, right? Like it should be in the hands of people to make that

choice. Um but then we think there's a

choice. Um but then we think there's a thing. It's like one of my favorite

thing. It's like one of my favorite things I do now is like I ask many more questions of like, okay, I I have this challenge where like, okay, I have three kids. I have a job. I'm going to do

kids. I have a job. I'm going to do something with them on the weekend. How

much time am I going to spend figuring out what I'm going to do with them on the weekend, right? Because I'm going to spend the time with them, but I don't have like an hour to prep. So, if I don't have enough time, then I'm going to do something boring, which is the

same thing I did like two weekends ago.

Um, but now I'm finding that it I can use personal intelligence to understand more of like where I like to go with my kids, what I enjoy, and then it just speeds up finding something fun to do.

Um, >> deeply relate to that use case.

>> Um, yes, people are like, you know, people have time to have fun, they just don't have time to plan. Planning is

hard. How many people do you know like spend like 30 minutes looking to pick the movie that they're going to then go watch for like an hour, right? Like it's

just it's just ridiculous in some of these things. And so we could we should

these things. And so we could we should be able to make that much easier for people.

>> Oh, don't get Ellis going on this. Ellis

Ellis is a planner with that stuff, for sure. Um, Liz, I I wanted to know how

sure. Um, Liz, I I wanted to know how you're feeling about the health of the web right now and what Google actually indexes. And there there was something

indexes. And there there was something you said at the conference again where we had that interview recently where you basically warned a room full of publishers to just try to use the tools

in a way that doesn't produce more slop and to actually use them to elevate. And

I have to imagine Google is is [snorts] trying to fight back a ton of slop right now and spam like you all have never seen. Um and yeah, what is is the is the

seen. Um and yeah, what is is the is the internet uh in a precarious moment right now? the open internet

now? the open internet >> people have created slop for a long time before it was AI slop AI slop allows them to create it faster okay but um it's not a new problem it's just sort of

the next level scale of the problem right people would um pay people in other countries to create you know rip off essentially surface level content 20

versions of the content etc on the ones and so does um so that's something that like Google does have a bunch of experience of fighting spam and we have to like stay on our toes like it's a cat and mouse game. You are never done,

right? The the commercial incentives for

right? The the commercial incentives for other people are there. Um so I think there is a lot of AI slop being generated for sure. I also think there continues to be a lot of great content generated and I think sometimes AI

creates helps people create better content and sometimes it helps create slop. And so I think it's important to

slop. And so I think it's important to separate did you use AI as a tool or did you create slop, right? um you're trying to bring to life the vision you have for

what a great living room could have to write something. Okay. Like that's can

write something. Okay. Like that's can sometimes be very hard for for people.

Um are you good at one thing but you're not as good a speaker at some other thing, right? You you know can you use

thing, right? You you know can you use it to help you write better and and more clearly? Um but I do think we have to

clearly? Um but I do think we have to fight it from the search side of making sure that we get the the great content.

And I also think it's a time for creators and journalists in different ways to say like are you producing great content that is really interesting to

people or if you're creating the same junk a hundred thousand other people are and just hoping your content is going to surface the top that's not as good right um I think it's been pretty interesting

to see how much movement there has been to user generated content in the world right like people are switching what they go they're listening to more podcasts, they're hearing directly from

more creators than influencers, right?

Like, but you know, like >> sometimes people like, "Oh, well, there's there's no, you know, journalism these days." And you're like, "Wait a

these days." And you're like, "Wait a sec." But like, people listen to 4-hour

sec." But like, people listen to 4-hour podcasts, right? Like sometimes

podcasts, right? Like sometimes >> going to different places, but like >> different places, right? It's it's in ways that it feels like it brings it alive to people in different ways. Um,

and so I feel like it's still a exciting opportunity for for creators in in so many ways. Um, and part of our job is to

many ways. Um, and part of our job is to make sure that we surface that awesome content, right? That the people who

content, right? That the people who create that content feel like they thrive in that world.

>> Does it mean do these shifts you're talking about mean you all have to be a little more creative with how you index and what you index and that you can't >> You mean a lot of this stuff's going to be paywalled?

>> Yeah. Paywalled or it's audio only or it's like hidden behind an RSS feed or that's proprietary to some app. like how

do you actually index all this stuff when the bottom does seem to be falling out of like traditional search traffic reliant publishing? I mean, I'm sure

reliant publishing? I mean, I'm sure you've seen that chart that's been going viral recently about all these tech outlets that have lost, you know, 50 to 90% of their traffic, uh, including The

Verge, where Ellis and I worked. Um, and

that that just has a real profound shift on where content shows up. And then it's your job as the head of search to like still index that content which means >> there's a few different things. Um to

your point about audio, the great thing about L, one of the great things about LLM is they're multimodal. So we can actually like understand audio content and video content actually at a level we

couldn't years ago. Um so that becomes exciting. Um some payw wall content um

exciting. Um some payw wall content um people still allow Google to crawl right and and surface. Um so it's not necessarily that it's absent or we have

deals with some set of ecosystems where they they give us content streams um across um I think pay walls is complicated for users because like

they're not always willing to pay um and so it's a complicated calculation you know how how do you think about that but um I generally feel like you know search

is able to to find most of the you know the content that's out there and and in fact you new opportunities are being created with the fact that like now you can understand audio much better. Now

you can understand video much better.

Now you can understand not just the like video transcription but like what is the video more about or what's the style or other things like that. So I think I think there's still a lot of content

available. I think everyone together is

available. I think everyone together is trying to figure out what makes great content. How do you reach audiences? I

content. How do you reach audiences? I

think one thing Google is trying to do a lot more of and we've taken small steps so far but want to do more. um how do you um help when there is that relationship? So like we did this thing

relationship? So like we did this thing with preferred sources. Um uh there have started to be experiments across Google with you know how do subscriptions change right? So like if you love this

change right? So like if you love this source and you do have a relationship with it [snorts] then that content should surface more easily for you on Google. Okay.

>> I have banned I have banned so many sources from my Google news over the years. It's like my magic I feel that's

years. It's like my magic I feel that's when I feel most powerful.

>> Okay. But like if we love you know if a user loves access but but in a [laughter] positive direction Ellis if a user loves access and they ask a question right like we should and you

had a great story on it the question shouldn't be like how does your content rank you know equivalently for six billion people it's like that's really interesting for me so like surface it

higher for me right um reinforce and and build that connection if you have a cooking subscription with someone can we make sure that those um those recipes

show up even more and that you know that you can click through, right? Like

people hate getting links that they get to and then they have to bounce back because they can't get through to the content and they're not willing to do it. But sometimes those people have

it. But sometimes those people have decided to pay somebody and not the other six people. Well, then we should surface the the one that they're paying for and not the six that they can't get access to more. Um so I think there's a

lot of opportunity to also think about given that in many ways I think um the sort of connection between audience and

individuals is getting stronger. How do

we how do we actually help with that? Um

as opposed to treating all sources equally for all people. Um which is just >> add sources to your preferred sources.

You should people gonna keep saying that.

>> This is the bane of my existence naming my publication sources, Liz, is that this happens all the time.

>> Good idea with that, Alex.

>> Uh, if only I had a friend who knew how to name products. Yeah. No, I I hear you on that. I mean, I do think that's the

on that. I mean, I do think that's the challenge for you guys, right? Is the

shift to payw wall, the shift to audio.

I would love to be able to ask Google, hey, what did Liz say about soando in the last episode of Access? and it give me like a snippet with a link to exactly where that was said right in the

episode. But not quite there yet. But it

episode. But not quite there yet. But it

sounds like that's the as you want to do more of that. Okay. But also like let's say there's 20 interviews and that are all paywalled and Ellis's description to

one and he's asking something about what I said or somebody else said, right?

Like we should return. We should make it easy to find the one that he can actually access. And then maybe you all

actually access. And then maybe you all have to figure out how to make it easier if somebody doesn't want to buy the full subscription, but they want partial. I

don't know. We'll see. Uh microp

payments hasn't really ever taken off, but maybe that will change over time. Um

uh but I think I think there is an opportunity to make with personalization.

Um not to just do personalization and sort of small ranking twiddling, but really strengthen these are the people you trust from let's make it easy for you with AI to access that information.

Well, Liz, uh, probably the next time I'll see you will be Google IO in a few months. Anything?

months. Anything?

>> Any It's already coming up. I'm sure

you're already in rehearsals. Um, can

you can you give us a tease? What what

do what is next for for search and for Google this year?

>> Well, I was going to say we are uh we are actively building, but but what will make the the stage will be an evolving thing over the next couple months, but I think we're very excited across the company. Like I think as the tech

company. Like I think as the tech unlocks new capabilities, it's also very weird because like traditionally you plan for IO like several months in advance and now you're at a time where you're like okay but like what happens

if we figure out something in the tech April 1st, right? Like are we going to are we going to ship it at IO or not? So

um we'll we'll see how things pass but um I I look forward to seeing you at IO.

I think there'll be lots of great news to share then.

>> That's got to be so tough. We had to do the same thing with the Snap Partner Summit in the early years. You know,

you're planning it five, six months in advance. And now it's like half the

advance. And now it's like half the startups I work with are pivoting during our fiveweek sprint because it's just so tough to stay on top of uh all the changes.

>> But but excite like it's tough and incredibly exciting. The fact that

incredibly exciting. The fact that you're pivoting is because something now is possible, not because something now that you thought was possible is not, right? Like that's an that's a that's a

right? Like that's an that's a that's a fun time to be in. Yeah. All right, Liz, thanks for joining us.

>> Thank you. Appreciate it. Have a great day.

>> See you.

And >> that's it for this week's show. Thank

you, Liz, for coming on. Don't forget to like, subscribe, everywhere you get podcasts. We are access.show on the

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>> You cannot find my newsletter because I am too cool. However, you could find me at hamburger on Twitter and at meaning.com for all of your startup storytelling needs. [music]

storytelling needs. [music] >> Access is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network and the show is produced by Hooked Creators.

>> Bye >> bye.