What Men REALLY Think About Love, Jealousy, Sex, Porn (It’s Not What You Think!) | Andrew Huberman

Please help us women finally understand men with a game I'm calling what's a man really thinking? What's a man really

really thinking? What's a man really thinking when it comes to falling in love? I do think that there are certain

love? I do think that there are certain areas where men are exceptionally smart and there are areas of life where like we're pretty dumb and one of the places

where we're dumb.

What's a man really thinking when it comes to jealousy and competition, crying and being vulnerable? The people

who study porn don't like that I say this, but I'm hearing from thousands of guys who ah what is a man really thinking when it comes to marriage?

I'd be willing to wager everything I have, in fact, my entire life on this idea that [Music] Dr. Andrew Huberman, as a

neuroscientist, a professor at Stanford, and an icon to over tens of millions of men online, please help us women finally understand men and what's actually happening in his brain that makes him

say and do the things that he actually does with a game I'm calling what's a man really thinking.

So, I want to know what's a man really thinking when it comes to falling in love.

Okay. Well, first a disclaimer, right?

I'm certainly not claiming to be representative of all men. Um, Lord

knows that's that's not uh that's not why I'm here. Um, I do hear from a lot of men of different ages. I'll be 50 next month. So, just to place myself in

next month. So, just to place myself in context.

And I say that because of course, while there are kind of universals among men, I think things are quite a bit different nowadays than they were when I was growing up. And they're likely to

growing up. And they're likely to continue to change. So, I just want to say that I acknowledge that, you know, what whatever words come out of my mouth are reflective of my experience and observations. And I don't say that to be

observations. And I don't say that to be politically correct. I say that because

politically correct. I say that because as a scientist, I'd be remiss if I didn't say that. I represent one narrow data set in the uh infinite number of

male data sets, as they say. So when men fall in love, I at least by my by way of my experience, I think they experience what everyone else experiences, which is

a complete and total change in their perceptual landscape, which is nerd speak for things sound different, they look different, our attention to

subtle cues or not so subtle cues is much sharper. All of this in men, which

much sharper. All of this in men, which is the only experience I know, but we know from research, uh, is also true in women, is reflective of massive changes in what

we call these neuromodulators. Yes,

dopamine increases. Dopamine, not the molecule of pleasure, but rather the molecule of motivation, right? I mean, I think anyone that's had

right? I mean, I think anyone that's had the great gift of falling in love has experienced the incredible surge in energy and excitement,

what neuroscientists call arousal that occurs when we are falling in love. And

with that increase in arousal, we notice so much more. And certain things become very salient to us. we were like, "Oh, you know, love the way that um she

responded to this or love the way that she laughs or love, you know, these these little things." And I think that is characteristic of the early stages of falling in love. So then the notion of a

love bubble as it was described to me recently is absolutely real.

So I I don't think that there are vast differences between men and women in terms of how they fall in love.

Of course, there going to be certain things related to how guarded or open one is. I've been in modes of my life

one is. I've been in modes of my life where I've been very guarded against uh falling in love and other times when I've um been more open to it. Right?

There's the vacation phenomenon whenever people are on vacation away from your general obligations of the day. When

you're not in task duty oriented kind of checking off the list type uh mental frame, you're more relaxed. When you're more relaxed,

relaxed. When you're more relaxed, you're more open to things. When you're

more open to things, uh you're more prone to noticing things and and so on and so forth. So, I think it's exactly identical for everybody. I say that

having only been male, but when I hear from a friend or when I look to my own experience of when I'm excited about somebody that I'm falling in love with,

it's been um curiosity is one of the the most common themes. Like a real desire to understand like who is this person?

What what are they about? An interest in their past for I think good reasons. um

you want to know somebody's context like um I mean I want to be fair to my uh half of the the human species.

I I I do think that there are certain areas where men are exceptionally smart and there are areas of life where like we're

we're pretty dumb. And one of the places where we're dumb is I think this gene that confers maleness, what we call the SRY gene, literally a gene on the Y chromosome that defines it's it's it's

deterministic for creating a male versus a female.

It codes for a bunch of genes that um do incredible things, but um at least among those things is a desire to just kind of like pick up objects and

see what happens if you smash two of them together.

This is specifically the male chromosome. Yeah, I I really do. So, you

chromosome. Yeah, I I really do. So, you

know, there's a very interesting thing about um humans generally, but here we're talking about males. So, um having this kind of desire across our evolution

to have create action at a distance, right? Like here's a rock. Am I going to

right? Like here's a rock. Am I going to like pay attention to the contours of a rock? That's kind of what a scientist

rock? That's kind of what a scientist does. Another thing that, you know,

does. Another thing that, you know, everyday scientist does, picks up a rock and kind of like, "Oh yeah, that's hard.

It hits against her head. I'm going to throw it against that wall. Does it does it break?" I mean, having grown up in a

it break?" I mean, having grown up in a big pack of boys, this this is what happens. You you see things in your

happens. You you see things in your environment and you experiment with them.

Why is that specifically to guys then, do you think?

Well, I think I think women do it too. I

think that it but it's ubiquitous among among males in in my experience. I think

um now here we're talking about stereotypes in general, of course. Yes.

like there going to be exceptions, you know but I think that um having been a young male at one point, um one of the things that

you very quickly start to do is you are generally less interested in kind of like psychological interactions between things as opposed to like banding up as

a group and saying like what would happen if like what would happen if? So

there's a lot of kind of um experimentation with what would happen if sometimes that gets men killed.

Sometimes that um gets men uh to be popular among their peer group. And so

here we're deviating from love. But I

think the what would happen if concept and actions is just to me at least in my experience is so central to the male experience. And um it's part of the reason I became a scientist. Now, I

trained, again, I don't say this to be politically correct. I trained under a

politically correct. I trained under a woman for my PhD who really enjoyed this what would happen if let's like it just try things in an intelligent way. So,

it's certainly not unique to men. But I

think scientists like to play what would happen if in a very controlled way where you make guesses about what might happen and then you see if those guesses are correct or incorrect. In thinking about

that actually cuz it seems like as you were talking I was like why wouldn't women do that? Do you think it's because there's so much more consequences to a woman? So what would happen if I go and

woman? So what would happen if I go and just sleep with a random guy? Well you

can get pregnant and now your whole life is changed. Like it seems like and

is changed. Like it seems like and please correct me if I'm wrong. Women we

do like the stability because we like to think about the nurturing, the family, the upbringing. Obviously again I'm

the upbringing. Obviously again I'm being stereotypical too. So it seems like as a guy you don't have that. Do

you think that that's why women aren't so inclined to do that? And then I'm trying to think about how now we put that into a relationship form. Why

women, maybe I'm wrong. I actually don't have a stat, but why women seek comfort and commitment more than guys do?

Well, again, not for any politically correct reasons, but it were it not for women, I mean, most guys would probably end up dead because they'll do what would happen if until they're until they're until

they're they obliterate themselves.

Right now, I think men also have a self-preservation mechanism inside, but I think a lot of the what would happen if is is a testing of self. Now, I don't know if this is sociological or if it's biological. It's almost certainly a mix

biological. It's almost certainly a mix of nature and nurture like almost everything, right? We should acknowledge

everything, right? We should acknowledge that.

But I do think that uh as a young male, there's a lot of self- testing. You

know, you run a race against people like am I the slowest, am I the fastest, am I somewhere in between? Um, I have a sister, so you know, in the room next door to me growing up, they would play their games and she would got involved in theater and they would have roles and

all these things. She played some sports, but she was more oriented towards the arts.

You know, I was um more oriented towards sports. Um, and so there is this very

sports. Um, and so there is this very real hierarchical thing among males.

Who's going to be the leader? Who's

going to be the follower? But this is where I think people miss the the key thing. It's very dynamic.

thing. It's very dynamic.

In one situation, this guy's the the leader, the so-called alpha. In another

situation, it's another. And so, in different contexts, we realize every young male realizes. All right, guys.

We'll be right back with Andrew Huberman. But for one second, if you

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And so, in different contexts, we realized, every young male realizes better at certain things, not at others.

These days, unfortunately, what I see is that there's a lot of early push to figure out what somebody is going to be absolutely exceptional in or what we as individuals are going to be exceptional

in. And as a consequence, I think

in. And as a consequence, I think there's less trying of things that we aren't superb at.

Okay? Like I'm a I'm a musical failure.

I love music, but I I can't play a musical instrument whatsoever. So, I

was, you know, reasonably good at certain things and less good at others.

And and I wouldn't say superb at any of them, but there were things where I felt like, oh, maybe I could become really excellent at something. I think that when I was growing up, there was more of a tendency to um expose oneself to all

the things. And so there was also the

the things. And so there was also the experience that I think is very critical for men to not be the best at something to actually be pretty darn lousy at certain things that would be considered

quite male things because I think with that becomes kind of a um a relaxation with self that you don't always have to be tops at everything. And I think what I'm hearing a lot because I do hear a

lot from men in the kind of I would say probably in the 18 to 40 bracket mostly and upwards of that as well um is that there's this immense pressure to find

what they're superb at and really make that their entire identity and that just wasn't the case uh when I was growing up. But the reason I say that I think

up. But the reason I say that I think women uh you know thank goodness for women because I think a lot of guys would end up dead is first of all their brains do develop faster. We know this in a group of young boys and girls, the

boys are fidgeting much more than the girls. That's because their forebrain,

girls. That's because their forebrain, which essentially uh controls what I call the sh response on the rest of your circuitry. It's a thing that shuts down

circuitry. It's a thing that shuts down impulses. It just hasn't developed as

impulses. It just hasn't developed as well. And one thing that I just learned

well. And one thing that I just learned recently is that mileelination, the sheathing of neurons with this fatty tissue that we call myelin. It's a

healthy fat that that allows neurons to communicate very quickly is not completed until approximately age 50. Oh

my god.

50.

What?

50. And yet it's completed much earlier in females than it is in males on average. These are always just averages.

average. These are always just averages.

So even like a so-called adult men, 35, 40y old men, 45 year old men, they're not even completely mileelinated yet.

Women aren't completely mileinated.

What does that exactly mean for people that may not know? Like what does that mean from how someone shows up and behaves?

Yeah, it translates into their brain is not functioning nearly as quickly as uh as other brains in the room as fast.

So they might be saying things very quickly, they might be doing things very quickly, but it's not being filtered through the same set of of nuance, uh, as is, you know, the brains that are

more mileinated. So I think, you know,

more mileinated. So I think, you know, here I'm again, I'm not trying to, um, kind of pepper in factoids as a way to dodge the question. I think this what would happen if thing. Let's take the extremes.

Um, the space program, okay, so Elon wants to go to Mars, but the space program's been around for a long time. the what

would what would happen if um in the space program, we've now had female astronauts, but at its at its inception was like what would happen if we could

literally launch rockets into space and then launch monkeys into space and then we could go to space and walk around on the moon. This is like what would happen

the moon. This is like what would happen if type thinking. Again, not unique to males but it's very clear this is part of our evolution. But I'd be willing to wager

evolution. But I'd be willing to wager everything I have, in fact my entire life, on this idea that the the SRY gene that resides on the Y chromosome drives

a set of brain structures, which we know about and hormone changes that include testosterone, but other things too. It's

relationship to dopamine and motivation that often leads the male brain to think what would happen if and I think in the context of relationship I do think that

understanding this aspect of the male brain and keeping it you know keeping it within the guard rails that are healthy as a male I can say it's wonderful when this aspect of us is seen

and appreciated provided it's benevolent because I think it's I think it's a wonderful feature of humanness.

Wow. So now actually take that one step further to echo into a relationship. So

what does that actually look like? So

maybe I can give you an example from my husband and you let me know if it's accurate. So Tom, he works a lot more

accurate. So Tom, he works a lot more than I do and he metaphorically says I it's like I go to war every day. I get

kicked in the teeth and I come back with blood on my face and he's like as my wife I want you to greet me like I've been to war. Is that what you mean?

where it's like we recognize that you've gone out and done the hard thing, the challenge, the competition.

Well, first of all, I love you guys is really I mean, I don't think folks really can understand just how positively you guys hold each other in

and the way you talk about one another in front of one another. Sure, on

camera, but off camera, too. And it's

just awesome. Yeah, I think that's exactly what he's talking about. I think

if I'm not mistaken, I won't get this exactly right, but Tom told me a story once where he was working so much that he was literally like on the floor trying to get up onto the couch. And in

my mind, to stay with this kind of general theme I've been raising, I think that was Tom and like what would happen if I worked to absolute exhaustion? What

would happen? Would I die? Would I

succeed? Would I 10x what I've got?

Would I be 10 times the provider? I

think that kind of experimentation which in that case would have been unhealthy to continue. I'm glad you pulled him

to continue. I'm glad you pulled him out.

Yes, I did.

I think you were the one that pulled him out of that.

Right. So, I think that seeing where it comes from, which is really yes, a desire to pro be a provider and protector as well as really testing one's limits, right? We were just

talking about like young boys testing their limits.

Um hopefully not to their own demise, right? but really trying to figure out

right? but really trying to figure out what am I capable of? And and I do think that in its best form, the masculine feminine dance is one in which men don't

emoleate themselves with work or with working out or or with the pursuit of money or the pursuit of anything, including experimentation. And I think

including experimentation. And I think that's a a wonderful I mean, that's a wonderful feature of a of a great relationship. I think he was saying,

relationship. I think he was saying, "I'm trying to figure out how much is too much. And if I know Tom well enough

too much. And if I know Tom well enough to know that he was trying to figure out, can I raise the upper ceiling on my ceiling?

And can you applaud me for doing that?

Yeah. And as his wife, what's hard in this complexity is the one thing I swore when I said I do when I was getting married was I'll never change you. I

know exactly who you are. I know how ambitious you are. And just because I have a ring on my finger doesn't mean that's going to change. And so in our entire lives, when Tom's like, "Hey, I want to start this new protein bar company. Let's put our house up for

company. Let's put our house up for collateral." you know, like all of this.

collateral." you know, like all of this.

I was like, I know who you are. I can

get another house. I can't get another Tom. And it was very clear for me that I

Tom. And it was very clear for me that I would never hold him back on his ambition, but understanding that part of what a man is like. Again, not to be generalized, but it was so important for me to understand that because if I didn't know, I would have been the wife.

It's like, I can't believe you want to gamble our house away. Like, when we got married, you told me you were going to protect me and you want to gamble our house. Like, I could have definitely

house. Like, I could have definitely have pulled those triggers that would have made him feel bad for who he is.

And so that's why I was so excited to talk to you about understanding the structure, the fundamentalness of what how a guy functions. So that breaking down of that was really beautiful. I

want to take it a little step further when you said about the competition piece if that's okay. So when I first met Tom, he came to London. We went out and we were playing pool and I think I'm pretty good at playing pool. So we're

playing and right at the end it's like make or break. He either gets the the black in the hole and he wins or he misses it and I win. So I've seen all the movies, Andrew. So, I go up to him.

I'm going to be really sexual. I'm going

to whisper in his ear. And I think it's the most sexy thing ever. He got so upset with me cuz he missed the shot.

And it was early days, so I didn't understand men. I didn't understand ego.

understand men. I didn't understand ego.

I didn't understand any of that. And I

was like, "Why are you upset that you've just missed a shot?" And he's like, "I want you to see me as being the best at everything." That was exactly his

everything." That was exactly his phrase. And I said, "Now imagine if I

phrase. And I said, "Now imagine if I was with you for the rest of my life.

How would that make me feel that you want to be best at everything?" Help me think. Is that the male ego? Is that the

think. Is that the male ego? Is that the male brain? Is that society? I

male brain? Is that society? I

have a lot of thoughts.

Okay. Please tell me who won the game.

I think I won the game.

Okay.

Yeah, cuz they missed the shot. So, I

must have won the game.

I'm not going to play pool again. Um,

it's dangerous around the big seriously. Well, first of all, it is it

seriously. Well, first of all, it is it the ego? Um, is it the brain? Yes. Um I

the ego? Um, is it the brain? Yes. Um I

will say competitiveness um I think is on a bit of a continuum among men having known a lot of different men. Um sometimes it can be

different men. Um sometimes it can be very what we call domain specific. Like

I don't consider myself generally competitive. Like I'll lose a game of

competitive. Like I'll lose a game of ping pong and not think about it. There

were guys like Michael Jordan who talked about how he had to win at everything.

I mean if you were betting a dollar over something he and he he figured out how to win. I do think um in a perhaps

to win. I do think um in a perhaps hopefully healthy way just as presumably women want to be the you know the number

one in their person's life right sure they can come to the acceptance that other women are attractive to a a man and men can come to the acceptance that other men are attractive to their partner

everyone I think likes the feeling that they are like the pick that they're the choice this notion of like being picked is a really big deal to everybody. Men and

women vocalize it differently, but being picked just feels really good. And being

passed over or picked, but with an asterisk there, nobody likes that.

Men might be a little better at hiding it. But nobody likes that. And I think

it. But nobody likes that. And I think this hearkens back to our early wiring.

I mean, think about how weird this is. I

think nowadays we all understand these attachment patterns and this whole thing, the idea that they're laid down during development, but just think about how wild it is that the same brain circuitry that

coming up.

I think it's hard. I think it's difficult and like real world sexual interactions require that.

I think it's a real trap for a lot of men.

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just think about how wild it is that the same brain circuitry that is responsible for infant us and caregiver attachment during development is repurposed for

romantic attachment. Just think about

romantic attachment. Just think about how wild that is. I mean, it's very Freudian and all that, but all the brain imaging data, all the psychological data point to exactly that, for better or worse. And when we're

young, if we're not picked by our parent, the our primary caregiver, it could mean certain death.

So much so that, have you ever seen that? You have siblings, right? I do.

that? You have siblings, right? I do.

Have you ever seen the pictures of an older sibling with a newborn baby and the face on the older sibling where the parents are like, we've got this cute little baby and then we got the older child. Usually the older child is

child. Usually the older child is looking like they want to commit siblide which is like you know there's even this phenomenon in animals where animals someone who's raised on a farm correct

me if I'm wrong but this notion of free martins that within with in uterro the animals are secretreting things to uh damage the hormones of the neighboring

fetus so that they will be sterile and or smaller to get fewer resources.

Do you remember going to dinner out to dinner with your family? We didn't go out to dinner too much when we were kids, but my sister used to point out if she had this much more soda than me.

This much, like this much. I'm like,

what? You know, you look back. So, it's

like getting more resources, being the one that's picked, being the one that feels special is so important. Male, female, I don't care what any guy says.

Out of curiosity, as we were talking, is it more prevalent in younger guys?

Because the story I just told you was Tom when he's 24. So, one thing that I I know from my own experience, but that I hear all the time from guys younger and

older is this notion of what I'll call the satellite male, but it's really from a very early stage of dating or getting to know a woman that we're romantically interested in. We're trying to

interested in. We're trying to understand what her concept of maleness is.

This is something that like is ubiquitous in male male perspective on rel relationship. We're trying to figure

rel relationship. We're trying to figure out like, you know, what's her dad like, right? Like I was dating someone and

right? Like I was dating someone and she's like, "Yeah, my dad and I, you know, rode motorcycles together and like I was like, "You have guns in your family?" She's like, "Oh, yeah. My

family?" She's like, "Oh, yeah. My

family's got a lot of guns." Like, so you're getting a picture, right? It's

probably an incomplete picture. Almost

certainly incomplete.

I'm like, "Is he good at fixing stuff?"

Oh, yeah. He can fix anything. Okay. So,

what you're trying to understand is like, is this her mo notion of maleness?

Now, you don't know. Oh, maybe she wants to be with a guy who's like an intellectual, who's good at, you know, matrix math or something like that. But

at that time, you're just trying to get a sense of like what her notion of maleness is, the ideal male is.

Women, to be honest, have uh sometimes learned to leverage this notion of a satellite male or their concept, you know, by pointing out somebody who's attractive or an actor they like or a

previous boyfriend that was awesome or could do something really well. This is

the kind of stuff that worms into guys heads. And that I will say, and I can

heads. And that I will say, and I can say this thankfully with gratitude now, those satellite pictures were were and are a big part of a man's maturation.

I'll tell you, I had a previous girlfriend, she's going to chuckle when she hears this, who the guy she was dating prior to me. Okay. Okay. He was a

Navy Seal. He had a television show.

Navy Seal. He had a television show.

People will know who this is if I continue. He's like, he looks like the

continue. He's like, he looks like the Marbor man. He literally looks like the

Marbor man. He literally looks like the Marbor man. He had the kind of dog I

Marbor man. He had the kind of dog I wanted. He had the truck I wanted. This

wanted. He had the truck I wanted. This

dude was like, and he's super nice. We

later actually became friends or friendly, but he's a legitimate realworld badass.

And get this, he's an intellectual. He

can recite poetry and all this stuff.

So, in my mid30s, I was like, goodness gracious, like this is a lot.

These are big shoes to fill, you know?

And I was not at a place in my life where I could like talk to her about that or anything.

However, and I thanked him later, those attributes, right, caused me to take a look at myself where I was strong, where I was weaker. And fortunately, I knew to lean into my strengths, you know, which

I'm an academic intellectual. Sure, I

have a physicality, but I'm not about to go do what he was doing for a profession or any of that.

And it really forces you to ask yourself, what am I about? And what am I really about? Am I gonna spend my entire

really about? Am I gonna spend my entire life trying to have more money than everybody else so that I am can't be outco compete? Am I gonna try and be the

outco compete? Am I gonna try and be the most physically fit? You know, the joke nowadays is that all these guys who are like lifting weights to get like super jack that women are not interested in excessive muscle.

You know, there's this whole debate online. They'll be like dad ba versus

online. They'll be like dad ba versus like bodybuilder. And of course,

like bodybuilder. And of course, presumably it's on average it's somewhere in the middle. But you know a lot of guys are interested in getting more and more money, more and more

muscle, more and more women, more and more whatever you want to call it as a competition. That competition is all

competition. That competition is all with themselves. So it's this kind of

with themselves. So it's this kind of thing where I think um we're guys are always trying to figure out, you know, where they fit into the hierarchy. And

again, some men are super competitive their whole lives. They they they just like live to compete. But I don't think that's most men. So let's actually go to if you don't mind the Navy Seal guy because going back to jealousy when I

think about um you know cuz actually you wrote that down. So what's a man really thinking when it comes to jealousy and competition and things like that and so in that moment where your girlfriend saying this trigger trigger trigger

trigger trigger I assume from you well it wasn't honestly it wasn't the Navy Seal thing. It was his damn recollection of like of like poetry and medieval history. I was like I was like

medieval history. I was like I was like because at that moment I was like I was like this I was like is there anything this dude doesn't funny he's gonna laugh about this and I you know she and I talked about it and she just laughed so

hard. You know what she told me? This is

hard. You know what she told me? This is

interesting. She said, "That's so crazy because in those same phases of our relationship, I was completely obsessed by one photo of you and your high school

girlfriend where she looked a certain way getting out of some lake that you guys were on vacation about and she was also a great artist and like it was like and she was feeling a ton of pressure

around this." And you know, yes, my high

around this." And you know, yes, my high school girlfriend was awesome in every regard, but I would have at that moment had I known, I would have just been like, "Yeah, but I was mostly like

excited about how awesome you were." And

so there's all this unspoken stuff. And

I think while not everything needs to be spoken about in relationship, I do think that there's a lot of kind of just fluff and [ __ ] that we get caught up in early in relationship

that takes us away from actually getting to know the person. Mhm.

And I think it's because early on that you're trying to figure things out like through a telescope, right? You're you're interacting up

right? You're you're interacting up close, but you're trying to you're trying to read signals. And I think maybe it's different nowadays where people just sit down and they're like, "What do you really value? What do you really value?" But that's just not how

really value?" But that's just not how it was when I was growing up. You were

paying attention. Like you hear later, you know, "Oh, so nice that you hold the door." Or,

door." Or, you know, I'm close with my sister.

People would say like, "I love the way that it was how you treated your sister." And so like we're just we're

sister." And so like we're just we're just not getting the full picture and women aren't getting the full picture about men which is I guess why you have this book.

Yeah. Exactly. Well, so then what's the difference then in the way you handled it? So you were like okay it's stung but

it? So you were like okay it's stung but I really looked at okay well where am I best at and what am I good at? It can it can actually be a great motivation. The

problem is sometimes I think it can be a destruction and that's where the guy goes into the toxic jealousy where it's now obsessive and bringing the woman down instead of making themselves better. What difference is there between

better. What difference is there between the man that is saying, "Okay, great.

Let me look at my life and get better versus the man that just wants to try and put other people down to make themselves feel better." Mhm. Well, here

I was fortunate that my dad um pretty early on encouraged me to find what I was um good at and loved.

You know, my dad, he's a scientist also.

He's a theoretical physicist, but he also he has this kind of like artistic romantic notion of life. I maybe it's because he's Argentine, maybe it's something else. And he said very young,

something else. And he said very young, he said, you know, you you want to find the thing that like gives you this texture of excitement. He said, "You know that had the feeling the day the night before your birthday?" I was like,

"I remember this from a conversation when I was six." Six. And he I said, "Yeah." And he said, "That's how it

"Yeah." And he said, "That's how it feels when I go to work." And I was like, "Oh my goodness." And so I I kind of early on I was kind of like looking for that thing that felt like this is really cool. And I learned early on to

really cool. And I learned early on to not really care if other people thought it was cool. I really lucked out. But

that what he taught me was to orient toward a feeling. And so I think that, you know, what it comes down to is being able to recognize that none of us are

going to be 10 out of 10 on every on every dimension. And

every dimension. And I do believe and I've certainly experienced this in my relationships that we are celebrated in our relationships by our partners for the

things that really feel most true to us.

Right? So I think it is important and I with certainty it's I can say this with certainty. It's important that a man

certainty. It's important that a man find what he really loves doing and can get really good at. Maybe not the best at, but really good at. But it's also

really important that they I think one of the bigger steps in in becoming a man is saying, you know, I'm not going to be a professional athlete. Might have had fantasies of that when I was a kid, but

you know, that's not my thing. I'm this

other thing and I love that or I'm going to be an artist or I'm going to be a musician. And being okay with that. I do

musician. And being okay with that. I do

think everyone should take good care of their physical body and their well-being, but I think it's a one of the final steps in becoming a a complete male is really acknowledging that you're

not going to win every competition. And

I like to think that women, my experience is that women can really see that. And I will also tell you that if a

that. And I will also tell you that if a guy is driven, he's going to work until someone said, typically his partner says, "Hey, like you're killing yourself with work." And Tom is gonna hate me for

with work." And Tom is gonna hate me for saying this. Deep down, they're waiting

saying this. Deep down, they're waiting for that because they're basically like, you're not just enough, you're more than enough. That's a great message to get.

enough. That's a great message to get.

It's also fun to see just what you're capable of.

I mean, I didn't work 120 hours a week, but you know, as a graduate student, I probably pushed 80 85 hours a week. I

used to collapse on the floor lab, get up and keep doing it.

I remember another guy saying, "You're going to burn out." And I was like, "Your flame never got lit." You know, like I don't the kind of BS that guys get into. he's a great guy and you know

get into. he's a great guy and you know but but we I think in our 20s we carry that that flame burns so hot and it's really important that it find a healthy direction.

Now as we're saying this of course there's this entire other dimension nowadays where the like deaths of despair in men are at an all-time high.

Guys are killing themselves. They're

drinking themselves to death. Porn all

of this. And I think that comes from a sense of overwhelm. I think it comes from feeling like my god like life is overwhelming. We're supposed to be all

overwhelming. We're supposed to be all these things, become all these things. I

can barely get my act together to like get from first class of the day to the end of the day. We're getting our butts kicked in every dimension of life. And

once a guy hits a state of overwhelm, he's going to default to the things that give him quote unquote pleasure because it's not sustainable pleasure, but pleasure with the least amount of

effort. And that's where you really

effort. And that's where you really start seeing the spiraling down.

That's what my next one was actually going to be is what is a man really thinking when it comes to porn? So, I

understand the stress makes complete sense like when you're going out and you're so stressed. It's like sometimes you want um an outlet. It has you want it quick. You don't want the whole fuss.

it quick. You don't want the whole fuss.

So, totally get porn. Like I'm a fan of porn until it gets maybe some a bit too far. Now,

far. Now, too far in terms of frequency or form.

Ah, I was thinking probably frequency, but um yeah, that's actually interesting. Do you have an opinion on

interesting. Do you have an opinion on that? Um yeah, I think that um

that? Um yeah, I think that um pornography um is was and probably always will be a part of a male's sexual education.

Question is how much of a role is it going to be your only teacher about sexual interactions?

I think that we all agree that that's not good.

Um if porn becomes the only outlet, that's not good. And I think we should just be direct here. Like what if we're talking about pornography, we're probably also talking about masturbation, right? We're probably not

masturbation, right? We're probably not talking about people just watching, right? So then it becomes and I can only

right? So then it becomes and I can only speak to uh what I hear from young guys.

There are a lot of young guys who are addicted to porn. The people who study porn don't like that I say this.

They don't like this. But I'm hearing from thousands of guys who can't stop watching porn and want to stop watching

porn and they are also they tell me and and I I would be open about it if I had an issue with this. I feel very fortunate that I never developed like a a really strong proclivity to porn but then I grew up before internet.

That's what I was going to say. Yeah.

And then I I just didn't, you know, and I would I would say if I did, but I I hear them and I have a sensitivity to what they're saying, which is that it is so accessible.

And like anything that taps into the dopamine system, which porn does, like gambling does, like drugs of abuse do, etc. Uh all of those are are initially hinge

on dopamine.

they are using more and more kind of intense forms of stimulation in order to get to the same level which is gradually dropping. That baseline of dopamine

dropping. That baseline of dopamine drops as they indulge in their behavior.

Could be gambling, could be porn, but here we're just talking about porn more and more often. So less pleasure, more drive to continue.

That's hell. Less pleasure, more drive to continue. And it's taking them out of

to continue. And it's taking them out of presumably mo the motivation to go out and you know date meet people develop healthy sexual interactions which itself is a whole set of skills. That's also

culturally very dynamic, right? Where

there's the app thing now, right? It's

no longer like asking for somebody's number. I suppose it could be or should

number. I suppose it could be or should be. Um, but it's typically, you know,

be. Um, but it's typically, you know, are they getting picked on on dating apps? Are they picking people on dating

apps? Are they picking people on dating apps? Are they actually going through

apps? Are they actually going through that effort? And now with AI, there is

that effort? And now with AI, there is this idea that guys are just going to be able to create their ultimate fantasy person. I am less concerned about that

person. I am less concerned about that than perhaps I should be. I don't know.

I just don't I think the the drive to find partnership hopefully will supersede the drive for just like raw pleasure in the moment. That would be that would be my hope.

When you said that porn can become an outlet for stress, totally understand that. Can it be any type of stress?

that. Can it be any type of stress?

Because there's the the person that the guy that's going and working and he's got kids and he's got a wife and he's got bills to pay and he's like, "Oh my god, I just want 5 minutes. I'm going to quickly go to the bathroom and watch some porn." Okay, got it. What about the

some porn." Okay, got it. What about the stress though where it's the stress emotional where you've got the 25year-old or 30-year-old man that's living in his mother's basement watching porn all day? Like, help me think

through those two different dynamics.

Yeah, I think what probably initially drives people to men to porn is a curiosity. And then I do think that

curiosity. And then I do think that eventually the research will point to the fact that some people are much more prone to pornography addiction than others.

The same way we know that some people are more prone to what's now called alcohol use disorder, what we used to call alcoholism or to cannabis addiction versus recreational cannabis use versus what I

do think that we have a different constellations of genes and phenotypes and t some people really like upstates.

They're more likely to to um take and abuse amphetamines. others more

abuse amphetamines. others more downstates, they're going to be more likely to take things like ketamine and or get addicted to these things, right?

A lot of these things also have therapeutic applications.

I think pornography the way it's in the world now is basically got its tentacles out there finding the people that they're

socially is maybe a little bit anxious, curious.

We're curious. I mean, my guess is women watch porn, too, right? Yeah. They're

curious, too. What you know, what are people doing? what what do people do

people doing? what what do people do this kind of thing. Um I think that males in general are not exceptional at

you know relational communication. Some

are but I think it's hard. I think it's difficult and like real world sexual interactions require that.

I think it's a real trap for a lot of men. So, the guy in his mom's basement

men. So, the guy in his mom's basement who's 25 and is watching porn all the time is that picture is is pretty bleak as as it just as you would imagine. But

what's even bleeer is what's not happening. I think we're so focused on

happening. I think we're so focused on what is happening, but what's not happening. Let's just set aside sex for

happening. Let's just set aside sex for a minute. He's not going on a coffee

a minute. He's not going on a coffee date.

Is any woman going to even know he exists? Probably not. Is he even going

exists? Probably not. Is he even going to understand what he likes in a real world interaction? Again, when we remove

world interaction? Again, when we remove sex from the equation, it starts feeling a bit more psychological and I think more tractable. So, can he decide,

more tractable. So, can he decide, actually, I went on a coffee with this woman and I'm not really interested. I

don't know why. Like, yeah, she's attractive. I'm just not interested. I I

attractive. I'm just not interested. I I

don't know why, but this other woman, she's really funny and like I don't know, my friends don't think that she's as hot as the other woman, but like I really like her. She's cool. Like, we

would be friends and I think I'm attracted to her. Th this is how it used to go. With porn, you can dial in the

to go. With porn, you can dial in the knob, bad figure of speech, of exactly exactly what you want and get exactly

that, which is not how life works.

It's just not how life works.

It's um and I think that we have to be very very concerned about this. Now, we

can't just say it should be inaccessible, although I think to kids it should be inaccessible cuz there's some pretty like crazy violent stuff.

There's certain things that no one should see, especially kids.

Yeah.

Right.

And I think that cuz that can change one's like mind. Just like when I was a kid, we were able to see some like uh horror movies, but these weren't horror movies with like outrageous violence.

They were just kind of like silly horror movies. With time, you know, like I

movies. With time, you know, like I still can't see the Dalmer thing. I I

won't watch it.

I watch every serial, TV show, docu series women love that.

Why do you think that?

Okay. What? Okay.

Can we can we take that?

Dude, let's let's absolutely take this tangent. Okay. So, I grew up obsessed. I

tangent. Okay. So, I grew up obsessed. I

read all the Ted Bundy books. I read the Green River Killer. Like, I was 14 reading this books. Fascinated

and scared.

Not really.

Okay.

It was like So, I read the um Fred and Rose West. You know who they were? Okay,

Rose West. You know who they were? Okay,

so couple in England and they would pick up hitchhikers and they had a little Volkswagen bug and they were an old couple and Rose, she would be in the passenger seat and be like, "Oh, love, come on down." She was the decoy.

She was the decoy. She was the one then handcuffing them and whipping them and doing just crazy stuff while the husband was peeping through a hole, watching and masturbating. It It was crazy story.

masturbating. It It was crazy story.

This is a real life thing.

Real life story. So, growing up, I hear all this crazy stuff. As I got older, I was like, why am I so fascinated? Over

time, I realized I think it's become a protective mechanism. So, think about in

protective mechanism. So, think about in evolution, the man goes out and he hunts. The women are in their little

hunts. The women are in their little village. It's just women. You better

village. It's just women. You better

know when something's off. You better

know when there's a predator because if you can't sense when there's a predator, they could come kill your children and now everyone's dead. So my hypothesis is as a woman your natural inclination is

to understand the micro expressions the body language of a predator so you can spot it in order to protect your village while the men out are hunting. What do

you think?

It's a great hypothesis. I mean never would have come up with that one just to show more of the divergence of the you know XX versus X Y chromosomes. I mean,

it's always intrigued and, you know, confused me as to why this would be so interesting to women and perhaps less so to men. I had a different hypothesis.

to men. I had a different hypothesis.

Again, not grounded in any research, just experience, which is, you know, I didn't grow up in the inner city or anything, but I got in a few scraps when I was younger and I've seen some some like pretty bad beatdowns and

worse just by virtue of being out in the world over time. And like every time I see that or hear it, like violence kind of makes me, you know, there's kind of a

sickening feeling that go the sounds associated with it and and the aftermath and what's associated with it. And so I just um I think boys hopefully aren't

beating each other up or worse. But um I I don't I think a lot of men just don't need to see it because they've seen it.

M I think of that as maybe that's a lot of crime and violence, but as a woman and maybe this let's put this together then as a woman you really fear it. You

fear being manipulated and maybe it's like if you end up being fooled by a psychopath and he impregnates you now your entire life is connected to that psychopath.

So that's the ultimate fear.

I don't know. I mean like I'm just I'm assuming yes because when you think for a I don't necessarily want a child that's a psychopath. I don't know genetically how much those are linked.

But in all seriousness, it's like once you have sex with a guy, if you end up getting pregnant by a very bad actor, that changes your whole life. Um, and so

just thinking about the protective mechanisms. So when I think about fear between men and women, in fact, let me ask you, when was the last time you went out in the evening?

Uh, last night.

All right. Right before you left, what did you do? What's like your thought process of leaving the house?

Uh, I got my keys. Um, got my glasses, um, put my shoes on, walked out the door.

Okay. Right. Just like the practical, I need my keys, I need shoes, I'm at the door.

As a woman, it's how am I getting a ride? How am I getting back? Is my phone

ride? How am I getting back? Is my phone fully charged? Do I have my keys on me

fully charged? Do I have my keys on me when I'm walking in a parking lot? Is it

dark? Like, there's all this thing that comes with just making a decision to go out at night that men don't think about because as a woman, there's so much consequence. So, now I think about a

consequence. So, now I think about a guy. I heard you say in an interview

guy. I heard you say in an interview recently where you said um women fear the most a man being violent to them. A

man fears the most a woman laughing at him.

So when you even think about what we fear the most as a woman, it absolutely is your body, your protection, your safety. So talk to me about why laughing

safety. So talk to me about why laughing at a man is the thing that they fear the most.

Yeah. So that was um born out of a conversation that I had with a with a young guy his 30s who came up to me, you know, and we were chatting and he was talking about uh his dating, you know, I was like because I knew him when he was

in a previous relationship. How's it

going? He's he's like, "Man, it's the worst." And I was like, "Why?" I mean,

worst." And I was like, "Why?" I mean, he's like really good-looking guy. He's

successful and kind and um I would think that he would be like a like a great partner, like highly eligible. I don't

know. Um, and he said, well, you know, he he's not comfortable being on apps because he feels like if he goes out on a date and he doesn't do everything perfectly that it's going to be in the message boards or like I know they're

not called message boards anymore. I'm

not that old, but that it's going to land in some area where then he's being shamed. So, it's not so much being I I

shamed. So, it's not so much being I I should have used better language, not not being laughed at, but that he's being shamed for something related to his ability to

be a good partner. uh could be sexual, could be um chivalry, could be you know a bunch of things. So what he was expressing is that his like level of anxiety around being perfect. Remember

we're getting back to this thing like the need to be perfect, right? The need

to not make a single mistake. He was

really um reporting the pressure of that and how he had just decided to opt out of the of of online dating at all. So um

because of that feeling of shame if he can't be Perfect.

Yeah, exactly. And that if something didn't go well that it would be his fault. Like, right, because remember the

fault. Like, right, because remember the game used to be the reverse. Sorry

everybody, but it used to be the reverse where guys talk, although they don't really talk that much about, you know, I think women think that men talk a lot about their sexual exploits a lot more than they actually do.

Oh really?

Oh, yeah. Like I mean I mean I don't know, maybe I grew up different, but like after a certain point, I just assumed my friends were either doing or not doing whatever they were doing.

So you guys don't really discuss sex?

Uh, not so much. I mean, when we were younger, you know, among my friends, um, since I was in the early cohort of guys to get a girlfriend, you know, you had like a brief like male talk about, which was to not talk about it, but kind of

like just like, you know, and but yeah, there's not a whole lot of discussion about it. Um,

about it. Um, so is that just stereotypical message that we got? Because women at least I'm going to speak we talk a lot about sex and details.

Yeah. And I think men know that and I think that that contributes to part of the reason they're, you know, they feel at least early on before they've had some experience, you know. And so I

think that what's really cool is um I I know this because uh I'm I've been involved in um kind of mentoring some folks this notion that when like uh these are heterosexual couples I'm

referring to. Um, but the the theme uh

referring to. Um, but the the theme uh the theme applies I I believe across the board where like a a guy and a girl are starting to date that they're like they're going to vault the relationship

like they're making a commitment to like try and work things out with each other.

Right now whether or not they do that or not um I don't know. But that the idea is that there's some room to make mistakes. There's some room to create

mistakes. There's some room to create what's called intimacy. Right? Remember

that other version of intimacy where you really felt safe not being perfect. Um,

and now we're not talking about like, oh, does he cry or not cry? Like, I

think nowadays you get points for crying. Actually, I saw this thing the

crying. Actually, I saw this thing the other day of this like hockey player.

He's away from home. There's a real life thing. And he um he broke down crying

thing. And he um he broke down crying during an interview, during a press interview. And he's a badass hockey

interview. And he's a badass hockey player. And everyone the the comments

player. And everyone the the comments were like, "Awesome. This dude's a badass." Now, he's also a badass hockey

badass." Now, he's also a badass hockey player, but the tears were not seen as a point of of weakness. They were seen as a point of like strength and being able to show vulnerability. So things have really changed.

But can I pause there? Actually, it's

only changing a certain amount cuz you said he's a badass.

I hate to say if it wasn't a badass and he was working a regular job and he was earning $50,000 a year and he cries. I

hate to say it, but I bet you the women around him won't think the same as that badass I hockey player that's getting paid millions of dollars and cries in camera.

Totally. I mean, and and we have these archetypes, you know? I mean, you got your Jaco Willinks. I mean, the dude looks like General Pat. Jaco's a buddy of mine. He looks like Pat.

of mine. He looks like Pat.

His neck is thicker than his head.

And he legitimately wakes up at 4:30 every morning and he like works out. He

rolls jiu-jitsu. He's a great dad. He he

he serve. I mean, it's sort of like, is there anything he doesn't do, you know, puts us all to shame.

Yeah. So, you know, I mean, and Jaco is a great guy and and so, you know, those standards, I think it's wonderful that I sort of see Jaco as like he's an archetype. He's an archetype, excuse me,

archetype. He's an archetype, excuse me, that a lot of young guys needed to see to push themselves harder when they wanted to like sleep in or not take care of their physical bodies, not take full responsibility. They're really, you

responsibility. They're really, you know, his whole thing is extreme ownership in in everything, which is a beautiful principle. So, we need those

beautiful principle. So, we need those people, right? What I'm hearing is that

people, right? What I'm hearing is that um it's hard to get to know people. And

we're not talking about being vulnerable on a first date, but we're talking about it's hard for people to get to know us in a way that feels like really safe,

right? Whereas in the past, you kind of

right? Whereas in the past, you kind of felt like if you went on a date, it wasn't that great. Like I've been on some dates in the past where I was like, "Goodness gracious, she's annoying."

Like I was just like I was just white knuckling to the end of that one. Like I

was dying for someone to pull a fire alarm. But I think the assumption was

alarm. But I think the assumption was always that that was a closed a closed environment. And so I think that

environment. And so I think that nowadays with um what you know yeah I think a lot of young guys are fearing being shamed by by women and so it's sending them into more and more

isolation. So, I say this because I

isolation. So, I say this because I think that the more that women and men feel safe to be themselves, like, and we're talking about within the margins of like healthy selves, right? Um, not

harming anyone, not harming themselves, I think that the quicker people are going to get to the this thing that they're after, which is like real partnership, the quicker that they're going to get to that thing, which is like real intimacy. And I think often

times the whole discussion around sexual interactions, that's really just a microcosm and reflection of the larger theme of like our are men and women even comfortable around one another nowadays and I think

we are in a tricky time now where there seems to be a lot of kind of like circling each other like sizing we're I mean recently the New York Times ran this big article about you know what men

and boys need like the suffering of men and boys this was a first in a while for for for a magazine like the times um and it wasn't like what's wrong with them it was more what do they need different

tone we're starting to hear that Now you got people like Scott Galloway and and I think Richard Reeves wrote a book on boys and men. Like that's a little bit more like left-leaning. You're also

starting to see a blurring of the polarization between the kind of like red pill. There are still those extremes

red pill. There are still those extremes but and the kind of woke. You're

starting to see this kind of middle ground fill in where it's like you've got some influencers who are certainly more left-leaning who are showing that yeah they also like lift weights and go to the gym. That's not

just like a red pill phenomenon.

We got things got a little crazy for a while, right? Got a little crazy where

while, right? Got a little crazy where it's like the stereotypes were so extreme. It was like two hills of like

extreme. It was like two hills of like these men and those men.

And it was really unfortunate. And so I think now um we're having this conversation at exactly the right time because my hope would be that men and

women would take a look at men and themselves and would say hey like I do believe everyone is in this life to have something might not be career but

sometimes it is that they really feel is like them. It's like that what my dad

like them. It's like that what my dad was describing that texture of like I can't wait till tomorrow.

And women are feeling a ton of pressure. I

know this. I know many women they're feeling a ton of pressure to be everything professionally, lookswise sexually artistically they're supposed to be nurturing.

They're like do all this stuff nurturing and earn the money and be at home and for many more years than they used to be expected to do it. I mean, have you seen like when I look at my age

group, my peers at 50 now versus pictures of 50 year olds in the 70s girls in they're like ancient. Yeah. And

I think that thanks to science and medicine, right? Um people are living

medicine, right? Um people are living longer. I mean, people are living longer

longer. I mean, people are living longer now.

Yeah.

And I think people are maintaining um reproductive and sexual health much longer. This is a big deal. I think that

longer. This is a big deal. I think that um people are maintaining their vigor much longer. You also are seeing a lot

much longer. You also are seeing a lot of people that were married and divorced, had kids, or have second marriages. I mean, none of this was

marriages. I mean, none of this was happening when I was younger. I mean, I think I was one of two kids in my entire high school with divorced parents.

Yeah. I think I was the only one with divorced parents growing up.

It's wild.

It's just wild. You know, I think um going back to your question of, you know, are men fearful of women? Are they

ashamed of of themselves? I these are the extremes. I think that whatever's

the extremes. I think that whatever's happened over the last 10 years, I will say this with certainty, men are sensitized to the fact that they are

being watched in a different way now.

They're being sized up and assessed. And

I don't know, I I should ask you, I mean, do women feel like they have a lot more agency and control in life? Like,

are they feeling good about where things are at? Let's set aside politics, but in

are at? Let's set aside politics, but in terms of where they're at, do they feel like world's their oyster? They can be stay at home mom if they want. World's

their oyster. They can be a CEO if they want. World's their oyster. They can be

want. World's their oyster. They can be the CEO and have kids and a couple nannies to help out.

Yeah. Oh god. All right. So, let me tell you about my community and kind of the women around me because again going to you is somewhat generalized.

I've seen a different change in the dynamic. So, I was a stay-at-home wife

dynamic. So, I was a stay-at-home wife for 8 years. Cooked, cleaned for Tom while he was going to go out and try and make enough money for us to make movies.

For eight years, I didn't say what I wanted. I didn't say that I was unhappy,

wanted. I didn't say that I was unhappy, that I was profoundly miserable. I just

told myself every single day, stick it out for the greater good because that's what a Greek woman does. So that was the message.

That's what a Greek woman does. Is that

what you said?

Yeah.

Is that so? That'sreek. So that's deeply woven in that a thousand%. So growing up, I was told,

a thousand%. So growing up, I was told, "Wait till you get married." Like that was going to be the pinnacle of your life. Once you're married and have kids,

life. Once you're married and have kids, everything is fine. So when I was a stay-at-home wife for 8 years, the belief system just kept repeating over and over in my head. So I didn't think I had the right to speak up and tell my husband. It got to a point where I was

husband. It got to a point where I was so profoundly unhappy, I pulled him aside and said, "I love you more than life itself, but I freaking hate cooking and cleaning for you. Like, it's just not making me happy anymore." And it was

once I had said that and broke the silence that Tom turned around said, "What kind of husband would I be if I prioritized clean clothes and food over my wife's happiness?" Now, it was a very complex navigation,

but I got through it. And then I started it in business and we built a billion dollar company. So, it was a weird

dollar company. So, it was a weird transition. That's a great story to

transition. That's a great story to tell. The problem is over those last 15

tell. The problem is over those last 15 years that my life is just what I've just painted, I've seen the pendulum swim the other way where now women who are stay-at-home wives or stay-at-home

mothers are feeling guilty that they're not at work. And it breaks my heart, Andrew. It's like it is really

Andrew. It's like it is really frustrating that we women cannot accept each other for whatever decisions we make. You want to be a lesbian, go ham.

make. You want to be a lesbian, go ham.

You want to have 10 kids, go ham. You

want to be in business, go ham. like why

can we not just support each other as long as your values and your morals are in line with you know obviously treating people good and things like that. We

just have the judgment and I don't know if it's ever going to go away. I don't

know if it's just biologically wired within women just like competition is wired within men somewhat to be the hierarchy. I don't know if it's

hierarchy. I don't know if it's hardwired into us and I don't know if we'll ever get past it or it's just society where you see it swing from one way to the other. Wow, that's super informative. And uh I have two

informative. And uh I have two reflections, of course, both through the lens of my Y chromosome, which is a distorted lens. We acknowledge that at

distorted lens. We acknowledge that at the That's why we had you on.

Okay. Appreciate that. Um, one would hope that male or female, somebody would take some time in their teens, 20s, 30s,

may maybe every 3 to 5 years and really stop for a morning and ask oneself like, am I on the right trajectory? Is the is what

I'm investing in here really the way I want to go? I will tell you on the threshold of my 50th birthday, I wish I had done more of this and I accomplished. I wanted, listen, I want

accomplished. I wanted, listen, I want to be tenured by 40 at Stanford or Harvard. Like, I was super

Harvard. Like, I was super goal-oriented. I want a PhD by 30. Like,

goal-oriented. I want a PhD by 30. Like,

I was that guy, right? This I never thought I'd start a podcast, but like, you know, I just had these milestones.

This, this, this, this, and um, you know, I thought I was pretty rounded, you know, but there were some things I missed in terms of my personal development. Uh, James Hollis is this

development. Uh, James Hollis is this incredible 84 year old psych I think he's 84, more than 80 years old psychoanalyst. I had him on my podcast.

psychoanalyst. I had him on my podcast.

incredible mind and he said the key to all of this is to take time and go inward not meditation could be journaling but

where you really ask yourself like is like what do I want what do I really really want and I think a lot of people are afraid to really touch into that if I could remove all social programming

what do I really want and to do that periodically as a regular practice once a week two times a week and he was saying this for for men and for women and then to get back into suit

up and show up as he says you know you know and actually just go do I don't think we do enough of this and then we need some sort of internal mentorship among men and women that's been almost completely lost even though my parents

split I feel very grateful I had my dad on my podcast that you know he's 81 years old still alive and he's we're able to talk I disagree with him on a number of things and we agree on a number of things but I'm able to like

glean mentorship from him as well as other men growing up there were these coaches and people I would look who's 5 to 10 years older than me. That's that

looks like they're doing really well in ways that I would like to do well.

I mean, elders are the way this is done.

Oh yeah.

This is how it's done. We're not

supposed to be able to figure it out all by ourselves. And peers, we're all

by ourselves. And peers, we're all idiots about the future we haven't experienced yet, right? When none of us have a have a time machine that includes a crystal ball, we don't know what we're going to want in 5 years. So, spending

some time thinking about it, I think, is something we just don't do enough of.

So, we can really be intentional. I'll

just pause there and say there's something else I wanted to share because we didn't really touch into this, but I'd be remiss if I didn't share it. I

hope I'm not ousted from the male community by sharing this because an older, he's about 5 years older male friend of mine who has a in my view a wonderful life. I won't say what that

wonderful life. I won't say what that life is because then people will think that that's like the ideal, but it includes most of the things that people think of when they think of a well-rounded life career and personally.

We were out to dinner. It was me and another guy. um neither of us in

another guy. um neither of us in relationships at the time. This guy's

married. And he said, "Here's the deal.

This is how it works." Right? This is

how men talk. Yeah.

They're not talking about sex. They're

talking this way. He goes, "Here's the deal." And of course, they're going to

deal." And of course, they're going to draw a graph, right? This is what men do. They like plot things out.

do. They like plot things out.

Among all the women that you could potentially meet, probably, this is his words, he said, you know, 80% of them are like not right for you. They're just

not like there's some something that doesn't make it right for you. We could

explore that till the end of time, but 20% are sort of like in the domain that we'd call like potential mates. And then

within that 20%, there's a continuum of super easygoing, will validate you for, you know, not falsely, but isn't going to challenge you.

They like, yeah, you leave the shoes there, they're cool. You leave the shoes there, they're cool. You cook sometimes, you don't cook like whatever. They're

just cool with whatever. They're like

mellow. Versus super challenging at the other extreme. always pushing you to be

other extreme. always pushing you to be better in every domain of your life.

And your job is to figure out where on that continuum you want to be partnered.

Ah, and I won't tell you where each of us reside, but what was so incredible is we did this little like cuz we're dudes like write down like where we made the little graph and put our little thing on and then did like a blind test, right?

So it was blinded.

Me and this other guy had di we were on diametrically I won't reveal which one it was. Diametrically

it was. Diametrically I bet you're the person that wants you to push you to be better. I'm not going to reveal to us diametrically opposite ends of this continuum.

Interesting.

And and this also of course assumes that the the women are are doing what they want. They're not pretending to not push

want. They're not pretending to not push or they're not pushing just to push cuz they've been told.

So, and every guy I've passed this along to is like that's a gem.

Some guys really like to be pushed. They

like someone who's going to call them on their [ __ ] And I'm not talking about like, you know, where they're really like messing up. I'm talking about like pushing them like you know ribbing them

being cynical with them versus somebody who's just like there they know they're there and is kind of accepting of them in their current form.

All right. So what's the difference between those two two types of guys?

Um how much they hate themselves.

Yeah. How much they self flagagillate in order to to progress.

So which one's the hate themselves more?

The ones that are that are pushing themselves harder Yeah. don't want someone pushing

Yeah. don't want someone pushing themselves.

They're already driving themselves like a slave master. They're like there's a there's an invisible whip on themselves to push harder and the last thing they want is more like you didn't do this right, you need to do that. You need to

do more of this. That was good, but you know, yeah, like the other sushi restaurant would have been better. That

kind of thing. Uh-uh. the one who is like wants to be driven but like can't quite like push themselves quite as much. Um they want a lot of guys want

much. Um they want a lot of guys want someone to push them.

That's so and some are right in the middle. Keep

in mind there's some that are like ah for this and not for that. But, you

know, I won't reveal where I'm at on that, but I think it was so interesting to me to to realize that so much of it is like some guys like really want someone pushing them and other guys are

like, "Uh-uh. I just want someone where

like, "Uh-uh. I just want someone where I come home. I have a good friend. He's

a very h happily married." And he just said, "Work is where I want to feel like I got the [ __ ] kicked out of me and I'm still continuing to show up.

And home is where I want to come to just completely deflate and relax."

Yeah. And I think the most successful entrepreneurs are the people with the most stable home lives because they can take more risks and know that no matter what that person's going to be there for them, right?

Um I remember a time burst into tears in front of me and it was at the pinnacle of Quest. So I think we just been

of Quest. So I think we just been announced as a billion dollar company and one day he just started crying. I

was like what? Like Tom never cried. So

I was like what is happening? And he's

like, I get all the accolades. And he's

like, and it breaks my heart that no one will ever know not only what you've brought to the business, but how much of a man you've helped me to become. And I

mean, he still repeats it to this day.

And he was like, you would never just let me like fall to my knees. He's like,

you pushed me to be better every single day, and you had a certain expectation that when we got married that I would show up in a certain way. And I was like, yeah, because you said you would.

So, I just held you to your own word.

And he's like, that's the important thing that I held him to his word even when it wasn't easy.

Yeah. It kind of speaks to this idea that, you know, as much as we as men, this is a funny phrase, we as men, again, I can only speak from my own experience and observations, um, you

know, as much as we are internally driven, like sometimes that um that pushing of ourselves is its own form of exhaustion. And sometimes it's great to

exhaustion. And sometimes it's great to be seen for it. It's also great to be um both to be encouraged to come off the

gas sometimes and also look we know we have weaknesses. I mean that's how we started

weaknesses. I mean that's how we started off this conversation. We know you know I said it for years. I'm replete with flaws. I'm always striving to do better.

flaws. I'm always striving to do better.

I every guy I know, even the guy in the basement watching porn, and I do believe that, you know, there's a generative drive in all of us, men and women, and

that that guy there too, it's just it's a it's been hijacked.

I really believe like the spirit, like we talk about dopamine as the universal currency of motivation and drive, but like going a a step deeper, like we're born with this energy that we come into life with and we're trying to invest it

in things intelligently. Yes, glean

pleasure, but not so much pleasure that we like, you know, eliminate our our drive, right? We've seen that. I've seen

drive, right? We've seen that. I've seen

people drink their drive into the ground. I know many men that did that. I

ground. I know many men that did that. I

would say a third of my friends from childhood, I didn't grow up in the inner city and I wasn't in the military, are either dead or in jail or addicts.

Is that more like more typical for men then?

Probably because of the the tendency toward violence, you You know, I mean, we talk about the higher suicide rates, successful suicides, because men tend to use more violent means. I would say about a third are doing pretty well, and

I've been very fortunate that about a third of my friends are like on this cosmic trajectory where they're doing incredible things in the world. Some of

whom I've met since I became a podcaster, but many of whom like a good friend of mine from childhood just got elected to the National Academy of Sciences. And that the James Hollis

Sciences. And that the James Hollis thing of reflecting on where do I want to invest this is so key. But I do think that there are technologies like pornography. It's weird to call it

pornography. It's weird to call it technology, but there drugs, sedatives especially, that they hijack that drive and they they ruin lives because they

hijack our intrinsic energy, our drive, which is really all we have. And I think in relationship, we were talking a little bit about this earlier, the biggest fear for men and for women presumably, is that we're going to

invest in the wrong place. our energies

are going to be put in the wrong place and time will pass and we will be left stranded. And so the whole business of

stranded. And so the whole business of dating and finding partnership and all this stuff, it's a giant mental math like emotional spiritual math that's

very hard and and we can't control other people. So it's you can see why there'd

people. So it's you can see why there'd be a lot of anxiety around it. But

hopefully, thankfully, the discussions like the ones that you're holding are going to help people kind of step back and reflect a bit.

Honestly, that's the goal is a lot of people in my life and my community have just given up on love and they've had really bad Yeah. because they've had really bad experiences with men. So,

I've done a lot of episodes on psychopaths and serial killers and things like that, which is why I know so much about it. But like when I go to my community, people like that happened to me. I got stalked. I got trapped. I

me. I got stalked. I got trapped. I

could I have a had a woman literally coming up to me, Andrew, in the middle of the street. She burst into tears. And

she said, "I was married and I had four kids and he was a complete narcissist.

He would scream and shout at us and we were never allowed to dance or sing. And

if we danced or sung in the house because we were happy, he would threaten to harm our children. So he would say to the mother, "If you do this, like I'm going to hurt the children." She came up

to me. She said, "And then I found one

to me. She said, "And then I found one of your videos, Lisa." And I realized that that wasn't a death sentence and that I could change my life. And so,

skip forward. She ended up getting an apartment. She took her four kids into

apartment. She took her four kids into this one-bedroom apartment. And she

said, "You know what the first thing we did is? We sung and we danced." And when

did is? We sung and we danced." And when you've heard stories like that where women have had such horrific experiences with men, you can understand why.

They're just like, "It's fearful. They

took my house. I had no money." Um, I do think this is sometimes why people go over to Only Fans. So he's like I can't blanket statement that only a fans is bad because you mean as as uh monetization.

Oh I see from not as a spectator but no sorry as a way to build to get money because one of the biggest fear is you don't have the financial freedom so you can't leave.

Okay. So now painting the picture of my community where they've had the most horrific stuff done to them. You can

understand why it's very dangerous to to trust someone. It breaks my heart though

trust someone. It breaks my heart though because the best thing that's ever happened to me and I built businesses.

I've had a pretty, you know, uh, fun life is my husband. And when that's the most amazing, precious thing in my life is my marriage. And so, it breaks my heart that people are giving up on love.

It breaks my heart that men are no longer having sex and never trying to approach a woman because they're scared.

And women are cruel to them. That isn't

good either. So, when I look at the world and I just said, "No [ __ ] How do we actually help the younger or even our generation find beautiful relationships?" I think it's this. And I

relationships?" I think it's this. And I

think it's um it's kind of scary to think that people are really diverging like this. You

know, I've talked about this once before, but like I've always um for whatever reason I've always had a couple friends who are lesbians, like you know, and I do now. And like they're great because they have great optics on women.

Like great optics.

They know every Yeah.

Oh, I always say, listen, I when it comes to men, I can spot a sociopath. I

know them cuz I've known them. Oh, I can spot a sociopath easy. I can tell walking down I was on the Venice boardwalk yesterday walking I could see if somebody at like from a distance just a silhouette like he's cool like he's

kind of unhinged he's unhinged he's going to cruise right by or he's super sketchy. I can sense it's just like a

sketchy. I can sense it's just like a oh give me a couple of things quickly.

What what are you?

Oh I mean this is more of an innate sense like you can hear someone screaming and kind know he's just in like he's in a sadly you know a mentally ill moment versus somebody else who's about to be aggressive. This is just

something that comes with experience and you're just kind of tuned to. Um,

but when it comes to spotting good versus bad, as uh someone once described to me, uh, sacred feminine versus profane feminine, like I have the optics

of a monkey blindfolded on LSD.

Like I really do. So I've had to which so I'm just visualizing it.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, I've had to and and listen, I've had some wonderful relationships and I still have great friendships with with some of those relationships and um and I have great

female friends, but like nobody has optics on women like lesbians cuz they specialize in women, right? And they,

you know, the ones I know like they're also fond of men as a as a as a as a theme as half our our um our our species. I mean, I'm only being somewhat

species. I mean, I'm only being somewhat facitious. Like, they've been a

facitious. Like, they've been a wonderful source, like a very rich source of information about like, nah, that's BS. Like, that's not your

that's BS. Like, that's not your responsibility, Andrew, to have to deal with that. Like, that's her work. Or

with that. Like, that's her work. Or

Andrew, like, come on, dude. Like, this

is that's how they talk, right? You

know, one one of them anyway, you know, that I know. Like, dude, like come on.

Like, this is this is on you. This is on them. And I think that, you know, I I'm

them. And I think that, you know, I I'm beginning to think that like lesbians might save the world.

by because they have such clear unc un you know uncontaminated optics because they're not they have no agenda about a romantic relationship with you if you're male.

That's true. But lesbians do have the worst divorce rate. I literally just heard that.

I was shocked to hear that.

I lit Yeah.

Well, the ones I know are still together.

Okay. Well, that's good. But you've got um lesbians, heterosexuals, and then gay men. So, lesbians are the highest rate

men. So, lesbians are the highest rate of divorce. It's like 72% versus

of divorce. It's like 72% versus heterosexuals which is what like I think it's 52% or something like that and going up.

And going up. Yeah. And then gays I think gay men are like around the 20 uh 20% something like that. But I love that you have if I can break it down what you

just said from the outside. I want this thing. I know that just like anything I

thing. I know that just like anything I got to get better at it. It's like a skill. I'm going to have a mentor that

skill. I'm going to have a mentor that knows exactly that's way better than me that understands it and they're going to guide me. and it happens to be a lesbian

guide me. and it happens to be a lesbian couple that now really can be honest with you. I love that so much. All

with you. I love that so much. All

right, I got another one for you. So,

when it comes to what's a man really thinking when it comes to marriage, um when I think about the different men that I've at least met, you've got the men that would just fearful like the commitment idea is just scary. It's like

handcuffs. They just like they just run from commitment. And then you got the

from commitment. And then you got the other people that men that really do want to find a woman, build a family.

I've heard you say how much you want kids. Obviously, it has to be with the

kids. Obviously, it has to be with the right woman. So, what's the difference

right woman. So, what's the difference between the man that is like this is what I want, beautiful, nurturing, and oh my god, I'm never going to go through or near it with the 10ft pole.

All right. Well, this is so weird because I know men who from the time they were like in their 20s, they're like marriage all the way.

Oh, some of them have parents that are divorced, even high conflict divorces.

Some of them have parents that are together. It just doesn't the math isn't

together. It just doesn't the math isn't one to one and they're still happily married. And

it's it's interesting for me to sit back and reflect that like 99% of my friends are happily married. Most with kids.

Most first marriages with kids. Cuz you

know when you say happily married, you go like what? Fifth marriage. Okay.

Yeah.

Some with kids, some without.

I also know people that for whatever reason just can't seem to get it right in marriage and they're like on their third or fourth thing. And hopefully

this time like we all pray for them like you know and you never know. Is it him?

Was it her? Was it state of you know age? So I think it differs. I mean I

age? So I think it differs. I mean I know the greatest growth in my life came from big commitments like going and getting a PhD at a time when everyone was making a lot of money in the dot thing.

I mean do you know what I made as a PhD student? I made $17,000 a year. I was

student? I made $17,000 a year. I was

happy as a clan. I was so happy because I was doing experiments. I could afford I'd save up, go snowboarding a little bit. I still had a student ID even

bit. I still had a student ID even though I was older than all the other people and I could like get stuff with my, you know, a ski pass or snowboarding. I was so happy. That

snowboarding. I was so happy. That

changed over time.

Fortunately, the income and the what I wanted. But, you know, I think that

wanted. But, you know, I think that people hit their desire for partnership and marriage at different rates. I

personally have this theory that a lot of it has to do with our own internal perception of how long we're going to live. Every one of my friends who lost a

live. Every one of my friends who lost a parent relatively young got married and had kids.

Oh, cuz they think they're going to die early. parents, you're like friends, in

early. parents, you're like friends, in this case, it was almost always the fathers of of male friends of mine who died. They were like looking for their

died. They were like looking for their wife in college. They're like, I want, you know, in their 20s. And fortunately,

they're still married now. So, their

sense of like how long life lasts was very different than mine. My perception

of how long I was going to live was it was only really like about a year ago that I was like, "Oh, yeah. Like, I

actually might die." And I of course know this. I'm a biologist.

know this. I'm a biologist.

Sure. But I just kind of assumed I would live a very long time. I may, I may not.

Steve Jobs, if you listen to his his biography by Walter Isacson, he had a very keen sense of time and the passage of time. He was like on an urgency

of time. He was like on an urgency streak. He also said, "Wait till you

streak. He also said, "Wait till you find the right person. There's nothing

better. Don't rush it. This don't

settle."

But I think, you know, there are biological constraints in particular for women, right? If we're if we're honest, right?

right? If we're if we're honest, right?

Those window the window for fertility closes earlier typically. Um, we are learning, however, that with proper care that that window on fertility can be

quite longer than we initially thought and that there are also some things that fortunately people are talking about now to kind of be mindful of in terms of hormone health early on that could help avoid some of the early closure that

previous generations of women experienced. So, I think a lot of it has

experienced. So, I think a lot of it has to do here. I I'll be more direct.

Yes. If a woman is really interested in if a guy is serious about marriage, I think you should just ask him like, "Do you want to get married at some point in the next 5 years? Do you see yourself

married with kids by a certain age?" If

they haven't thought about it, like chances are that that's a no.

I'm not going to speak for all men, but if they're like, "Yeah, like I I would if it's the if with the right person, yes, that's a partial answer, by the way."

way." It feels like sometimes there's a bit of a copout.

It's not It's not an answer.

Yeah. Yeah.

It's a non-answer. In science, we like that's not an answer. That's not an answer. That's not an answer. That's

answer. That's not an answer. That's

saying if um we're asking about of course with the right person, right?

Of course with the right person, right?

Of course with the right. It's like

saying, you know, if you had a gun to your head, what would you do? And you'd

be like, is it a squirt gun?

You know, it's like, no, it's a gun with a bullet, you idiot. You know,

it's like it's very different.

Yeah. So that's that's like a that's kind of like a contortion type answer.

It's like and if and sometimes I can say this from experience sometimes we don't know and that's where the James Hollis I keep citing him because he was really the one like this the importance of men and

women going inside removing all the outside influences you can do this anywhere it costs nothing but it's hard and going like what what do I really want what do I really really want and

what am I willing to do to get it and what am I unwilling to do to get it and then you see the the mismatch between where you're at and that thing.

So, cuz as men, I think we're really good at distracting ourselves when we can't like get our head around what what what it is we want when it feels kind of overwhelming. Like, there just so many

overwhelming. Like, there just so many other places to place our energy. And

they're not all destructive. It's like,

you know, I'll tell you right now, if I had was forced to have that conversation with myself like when I was like 28 or 30, I would have just been like, I'm going to lab.

Oh, I'm going to work cuz like there I'm going to get papers. time like we kind of default to like a what would happen if I threw this rock against the wall like a hundth time but I think that the

more that so maybe the better question I'm exploring here a little bit forgive me but maybe the better question isn't do you want marriage and family but like how much have you thought about your

answer not as a you sure you don't want to change your answer because that doesn't feel good but like on a scale of 1 to 10 being you are absolutely certain and one being like eh if the right

person came along That's such a dumb answer. So silly. Um,

if I got tricked into it, I mean, it's like it's so dumb, right? It's not an answer. It's a non-answer.

answer. It's a non-answer.

Then I think you'd get a much clearer optics. And it doesn't mean it's a

optics. And it doesn't mean it's a dealbreaker, right? You just like, all

dealbreaker, right? You just like, all right, well, maybe you should think about that a little more, dude. Cuz I'm

thinking about that. And anytime I answer a question, by the way, from the woman's perspective of what she do here, you know what I'm doing in my head? I'm

thinking about what would I want someone to like done with like my best female friend or with my sister, you know? I

mean, my sister's, you know, been married, has kids in the whole thing, but like what what would I want for them, right? Because it's very hard when

right? Because it's very hard when you're in your own first person because like, you know, you get defended.

Yeah. Yeah. That's so true.

So, I I think I think that's like how certain are you? It's like a game show.

What's your answer? How certain are you of your answer? I love that about like the how much have you thought about it because it kind of um takes the pressure off of like do you want to get married?

Yes or no. It's like how much have you thought about it? That's a beautiful way of doing it. Um going to the thing about emotion that was another one that I actually had. So what's a man really thinking

had. So what's a man really thinking when it comes to crying and being vulnerable?

How much of men is that like you guys are protecting yourselves from shame from um people's opinion or is it from a old belief that you guys have been

taught from very young that boys don't cry?

Well, you know, full confession, I I got my mom's emotionality at the level of kind of like I feel things very intensely. I've cried on podcasts, my

intensely. I've cried on podcasts, my own and others. So, um

those moments didn't feel great to be honest. they kind of I I'm happy that

honest. they kind of I I'm happy that happy I'm okay with the fact that it happened. I I don't I'm not disparaging

happened. I I don't I'm not disparaging of men crying at all. I will tell this one actually can be a brief answer. The

extent to which a man is okay with crying or having cried in front of other people will scale directly with how successful he is in other areas of life.

Being an NHL hockey player crying in a press conference very different than a guy crying not an NHL, you know. um

being someone who you know it's clear he's a successful person it's clear he has many masculine traits and then cries

it's like an add-on people nowadays that thankfully I think you get they get kind of like wow like that took guts that took guts but if it's just a lot of

emotionality without any demonstration forgive the word but any demonstration of having been able to do hard things where you have buckle down and show up and put your needs and emotions to the

side and show up and get things done.

Well, that's a different picture.

But why do men try to fix things then go into being vulnerable and talking through things versus a woman who let's be very honest when at least in my relationship with something when she hits the fan with me, I'm like, "Babe, I

need to talk through it. I need cuddles.

I just need you to give me space to hold space for me." But many times and my friends and everyone I speak to, it's so typical that the woman wants to talk

through her emotions, feel the vulnerability, and the man just doesn't want to sit with his vulnerability, doesn't want to sit with those emotions, and sometimes doesn't want to sit with hers either.

Oh. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. I think um there are certain categories of emotions that men find very difficult to feel um because they

feel so darn inconvenient and counter um product I don't mean just work productivity but they feel either like a waste of time or a distraction and that

they impede our judgment. Men love when their partners are happy. They love it and they hate when their partners are unhappy. they don't like it, especially

unhappy. they don't like it, especially if it was because of something they did or didn't do, right? I mean, we're human in that way that fortunately, right? I

think we're here we're talking about difficult emotions. I think sadness,

difficult emotions. I think sadness, anger frustration confusion um shame, you know, these kinds of things as opposed to like all the positive emotions, right?

Do you think though anger is as hard for a man than shame?

Depends on nowadays it's tricky because you know you have your um used to be called passion.

Oh, right. a guy going a guy losing his cool

right. a guy going a guy losing his cool like going unhinged is kind of the end of his professional career. It's really

interesting, you know, on X, there have been a few interactions, some of which I've been involved in where um, fortunately I wasn't on the on the on the like collapse part of this, but

occasionally a guy who's appears to have all his stuff together will react to a comment and everyone's like, "Oh, he he cracked.

He cracked."

Right? He claims to like never react. It

never gets under his skin. He cracked.

Yeah, X is a place where men are testing other men and women are testing men too. I

don't know about women women. I'm not

watching those dynamics. Again, monkey

blindfolded LSD.

So, the this notion that you don't let your emotions get so big that you like reveal a a lack of capacity to hold, you call

it holding space, right? It's very interesting, right?

right? It's very interesting, right?

Like we want people we want men to be able to express and to feel, but not so much that they break things.

Yes.

Not so much that they break the moment, right? And I'm sure as as women are

right? And I'm sure as as women are hearing this, there's going to be a percentage of them going, "Oh, well, now you get a sense of what it's like to be a woman in the world every single day."

Listen, I got lesbian friends. I got a sister. I got friends. I got female

sister. I got friends. I got female friends. I know it. Like, you know,

friends. I know it. Like, you know, we remind you.

Yeah, sure. We I get it. There's There's

always a mirror to this, right? But

since you're asking about that, I think you know some of the best work that um I've been exposed to in the last couple of years um is deep work, guided work

that really lets you like feel things really big, really terrible emotions and going over that hump and crashing into

like a puddle of my own like just and realizing nothing got broken, no one was harmed.

I don't just feel okay, I feel 10 times better. You know, his ability to purge

better. You know, his ability to purge these big emotions in safe ways, safe to us and safe to others. You know, I'm fascinated by some of the traditions of of Forgive me, I don't know the politically correct language, but like

the Native American, you know, I think that's politically I I just I'm from England. I'm the worst person.

I'll tell you why I don't want to offend anyone. It's not so I don't get

anyone. It's not so I don't get comments. like the language is changing

comments. like the language is changing so fast and like um and I've been exposed recently to some people in in in the tribes communities who talk about you

know men bringing younger men in early on and teaching them how to do like forget sauna they sweat they know how to put them into like dangerously uncomfortable heat don't do this on your

own folks and sometimes yes it's purging there's vomiting involved and you're like wait what is this this is like this would be considered abuse right but they return from that's feeling cleansed and

ready to show up their best selves.

Okay. So, there's no um and and there's safeguards. And so, like I feel like the

safeguards. And so, like I feel like the more we move away from that, the more it becomes self-destruction, inward destruction, guys harming themselves with alcohol, porn, opioids. So, I think

that, you know, big emotions need a place to go safely. And I think that the it's kind of counterintuitive because we don't want to feed big emotions and let

them get out of control. But I think that purge and catharsis is really required. And this is one of the

required. And this is one of the beauties I think of like martial arts, why some people like they channel it into jiu-jitsu or they channel it into running, ultra running or something like that.

But not everyone has time to run a marathon a day and not everyone has time to roll jiu-jitsu for two hours a day.

We need healthy places to put our our feelings.

And I think that men guiding men on how to do that is something I'm very interested in. And that's why I'm

interested in. And that's why I'm learning about it now. And what would be really interesting, by the way, is if there's a way to also help women. And

maybe it's not you and it's a counterpart or something, but when I was thinking about what you were just saying, it's amazing to help men think through processing your emotions, tears,

vulnerability, but there is this other part of helping women receive it because I remember first time I saw Tom cry, I

just froze. I froze because I'd never

just froze. I froze because I'd never seen my dad cry before. He was a very masculine Greek man. And so growing up it was like men don't cry and that was what I saw and heard and was taught. So

you can imagine now I get into this relationship with Tom and the first time he cries I don't freaking know how to handle it. So I go just blanket stare at

handle it. So I go just blanket stare at him now. How do you think that made him

him now. How do you think that made him feel? So as I'm thinking about you

feel? So as I'm thinking about you helping men navigate it. I think it would be really beautiful if we can help women understand how to receive a man who is being vulnerable.

Yeah. Love the question. Um,

and I grew up in a my dad's Argentine traditional family, a little I saw some emotion, but it was more like excitement and and love, but like of like I mean I always say and I say this with such fun.

My dad's hugs are like they're like I'm like dude, you know, he's like like he hugs like means it like he loves you that much and he puts into his physicality. And uh he's Latin

so I think for an American kid that actually felt like a lot. When I was growing up, you didn't have dads telling their sons they love them. Now you do.

My dad was like a Argentines are very expressive.

They're like the Greeks. Yeah,

they're very expressive. My first

girlfriend, uh, her dad was Greek.

Very Greek. And yeah, he and I was terrified of him.

And he made me terrified. Eventually

they let me in, of course.

Um, so just, yeah, wonderful culture.

Um, here's my advice again, just my experience, my observation.

It's amazing and wonderful when a woman, our partner or a female friend can hold space and let us be sad and then don't remind us that it happened later.

Cuz the fear isn't that like in the moment she's going to be like you wuss or like what is this?

It's going to be that later you're going to be reminded of it or told you should do it again. like like, "Hey, I can tell you're really upset." Like you like like let's just agree that happened and let's agree we're not going to talk

about it again.

So you don't want to be like like let's say the next day like look you were really sad yesterday day. Is there

anything I can do? You just literally want us to forget it.

Yeah. I mean I could see I'm talking from experience. I've had like a hey I

from experience. I've had like a hey I really appreciate that you were able to share that and I'm like yeah cool. Can we talk about something else? Cuz it's like thank you. Like it's it exists in that

thank you. Like it's it exists in that moment. And I think that's how men want,

moment. And I think that's how men want, again, every time I say men blah blah blah, you know, put in the disclaimer.

But I think that's how we want our harder emotions to be held as like our sadness is that happened, you move through it, there's no reason to talk

about it again.

Like not now. It's a I think the permission to do more of that comes from um not making it like this big like now everything is different

because nothing's different except that now he feels safe to do that and knows he can do it whereas I think like we never want to cuz we don't think of it as our like our worst moments but it's not really what we want to be remembered

for like if you think about like eulogies and like you're like you're like you know and he would so awesome cuz like I remember this time when he was really hurt and kissed me cry every in his grave is like down there. They're

just like, "No, no, tell about the time I ran in front of a truck." You know, like, you know, I mean, we're, you know, just like I'm trying to think of the the inverse for women.

What's interesting though, in the same example with the vulnerability women want you to ask again. So, it's like the opposite of guys. So, you don't want to be reminded as a woman. It's like, you

think that 24 hours just healed me? So,

I Yeah. Well, that's the Y chromosome.

Yeah. Well, that's the Y chromosome.

Forward. Always. Forward.

Forward. always forward. We don't like thinking about the past. We're like in the present and we're thinking about the future and you know there's always well he doesn't want to plan a future. That's a

different picture. Like we are like in our best. We're here now to make the

our best. We're here now to make the best of now.

You know one of the best phrases I ever learned was from my female graduate adviser when she used to just say my time machine is broken. Like if

something came up about like we should have done that. She goes well that's funny. She was an awesome lady. she's

funny. She was an awesome lady. she's

passed, but it's just the awesomest lady. And she'd just go, "Well, my time

lady. And she'd just go, "Well, my time machine is broken." Or I'd ask a question about the future, and she'd go, "Hold on. Let me look into my crystal

"Hold on. Let me look into my crystal ball." I'm like, "All right, got it."

ball." I'm like, "All right, got it."

Eventually, I learn to stop asking. Like

just learning to be like as present as possible to what's happening and then letting that drift into the past. Now,

sometimes things need to be discussed.

Like, hey, last week this thing, but like if you've ever tried that with a guy, it's like really like that was like a week ago.

Oh yeah.

Like that was like a lifetime ago. I

think we I I'm getting to this place now in this conversation where I'm beginning to think that we the men and women parse time differently.

Oh, like literally the passage of time and like where their optics are like right here. And and I think they're good

here. And and I think they're good evolutionary reasons for that. And at

the extreme stereotypes, they they're more apparent and toward the middle they're less apparent because we're men are damn good at building things for the long arc. Damn good. As are women. We

long arc. Damn good. As are women. We

but we generally don't think a whole lot about the past. We don't like to think about the past.

I sure as hell know I don't I have this I have like these pictures from the past. I occasionally look at them and I

past. I occasionally look at them and I was just like I'm going to put this away for another time. Like why would I want to think about that?

Like today's today and I want to go forward.

When something happens to me it just takes me time to for the chemicals to change my body for then me to get my mindset in the right space and move on.

And because Tom isn't like that, when something happens and then the next day, if I wake up and I'm still sad, he'll go, "What's wrong?" I feel so judged, Andrew. So, it feels like

Andrew. So, it feels like dismissiveness. But now, understanding

dismissiveness. But now, understanding what you're saying about, "Look, men look into the future." Understand it's not everybody, but men generally do.

Now, at least I understand that the next time Tom may accidentally dismiss my emotions for something I felt yesterday, I don't take it as person. I just like that's how he sees things.

Yeah. And I think for the last I don't know decade or so the conversation has really been around like you know a revision of a lot of the traditional male uh stereotypes. I mean I grew up in

a completely different landscape and the TV shows tell the story.

You know there was a TV show that came out when I was a kid all in the family about a mom going to work. my mom went to work a you know after having been a stay-at-home mom and it was like a thing

you know now you know like so so things have really changed and I think that what you just said I I I want to make sure I don't blow past it because I think

if it's the case that women hold a kind of larger time bin of events and like emotional understanding of themselves and what happened yesterday let's let's just assume that that like let's make up

I'm a scientist let's arbitrarily say you wake up in the morning holding knowledge and sense of what happened over the last emotionally and practically over the last four days and you're thinking about today and the next

day and let's say Tom is really taking same units of energy and putting it to like today and tomorrow like understanding that just that shift

in perspective that like being able to say like I'm going to like expand my time horizon backward and forward a little bit and maybe yours is like I'm going to maybe take turns like shrink I'm not trying to be a therapist

here shrink your time horizon. I mean,

it was really hard for me to see big emotionality in somebody that I was partnered with for a long time.

Fortunately, still really close friends.

I'll tell you that was like, yeah, I get a little emotional. I'm not going to get emotional. Um,

emotional. Um, which you're welcome to hear.

Thank you. I'll try not to cry because like the amount of work that we did. we

did therapy together and we did the like the amount of work that went into that and recently actually we had a little bit of a sticky interaction. We're still

friends and we were discussing a practical thing and she said something and then I like heard her but then I said something about how and like it was clear like I had like I had failed it and then we got so we were just like

we're going to take a break. There was a call back. We got on the phone and we

call back. We got on the phone and we patched it up and we were both like 10 out of 10 recovery.

But only because I there's just these moments where you realize like we're never going to get the other's perspective.

We're just never going to get the other's perspective. And I think but

other's perspective. And I think but that was someone I was with for seven years. Seven years is a long time. And

years. Seven years is a long time. And

made a hell of a lot of mistakes. Me

more than her, but got some things right, too. I think

right, too. I think I don't hold on to the past much anymore. I think I had to learn how to

anymore. I think I had to learn how to do that. But I think that in general I

do that. But I think that in general I never really liked the past. It was like an inconvenience. And so maybe that's

an inconvenience. And so maybe that's maybe that's one of the fundamental differences.

So maybe we just need some like tweaking of the time dimensionality.

Yeah. Or like just at least understanding where each other's coming from. So when you speak and you

from. So when you speak and you communicate, there's no judgment and shame. And I think that that happens

shame. And I think that that happens quite a lot where it's like if you don't understand where the other person's coming from and you can't quite get on the same page, they just seem crazy to

you. And I'm really working hard,

you. And I'm really working hard, Andrew. really working hard to stop

Andrew. really working hard to stop judging guys. And again, like look,

judging guys. And again, like look, there are some nefarious people out there a thousand%. But when we make these labels, like I was with a couple a few days ago,

broke my heart. She just called him stupid in front of everyone and it broke my heart. And I was like, either you're

my heart. And I was like, either you're being disrespectful, which I don't think she meant to be. It's like it's just the language they use. And when I think about what that looks like in five and 10 years and 20 years when you're in a relationship and you're having these

words and this communication and you don't realize what's happening.

Yeah. That that I'll tell you right now from a male perspective that their relationship's over even if they stay alive till the end of time. I mean, the the secret life of Walter Midi is a is a a book about a guy having fantasies all

day long while his wife not about sexual fantasy, just fantasies of him actually being an important person in the world, doing interesting things while his wife is talking to him about this and that and shopping for whatever because he completely checked out because of the

the ridicule.

I mean, I realize it does go in both directions. I mean, people use words as

directions. I mean, people use words as weapons. And one thing that's happened

weapons. And one thing that's happened in the last number of years is that words like narcissist, sociopath, even psychopath, they've lost their potency because everyone's calling everyone

anybody's clinically most people aren't clinically trained to do this. And as a consequence, it, you know, likewise with trauma, right? You know, I think it was

trauma, right? You know, I think it was an important shift in the late 90s, early 2000s when we realized that there's this notion of micro traumas.

But I I think it's important to distinguish between being hurt and being injured, right? Physically, it's very

injured, right? Physically, it's very important. If you you do things

important. If you you do things physically, you have to be like, "Ah, that really hurts." But are you injured?

The moment you say you're injured or you're in a different category. It needs

a kind of repair that means stopping maybe changing changing sports for a while or doing something different. I

think that psychologically it's all in the the like the eye and the the heart of the beholder, right? Like so people will say like that feels traumatizing or that hurts. And so the languages have

that hurts. And so the languages have become very mishmashy. You said

something earlier which is um which I just felt so important which is I think if we can just make the shift from

slightly less judgment and replace that with even slightly more effort to understand we're going to get really far.

I mean this goes for men and it goes for women. Like the question is like how

women. Like the question is like how much of our hurt are we responsible for repairing on our own? And and I'm not you know the person to answer that question. And I think that they're

question. And I think that they're excellent therapists. I'm seeing some

excellent therapists. I'm seeing some new new accounts on Instagram and people were like really thinking about this like how much accountability do we have to ourselves to handle our stuff? This

is why I've become a fan of I started reading up on you know what are the sort of tried and trueue methods for safely purging anger, hurt, shame

for for men in ways that don't harm themselves or anyone else. Like it's

simple question, right? But like what are those? Like what are the category?

are those? Like what are the category?

You supposed to scream. You're supposed

to take up boxing. What? Well, boxing.

Get hit in the head. You get a concussion. Probably a bad idea.

concussion. Probably a bad idea.

Screaming, you blow out your vocal cords. Okay. Maybe

cords. Okay. Maybe

he was the entrepreneur that would go out and scream in the woods.

Yeah. I grew up, you know, I grew up in his area.

And so we'd see him, he'd literally walk around barefooted around downtown Palo Alto in that area. And I never saw him screaming or anything. He was known for having quite a temper, you know, and I and I think depending on how anger was

handled in homes like I grew up in a home where emotionality was handled very differently by one parent than the other, you know, nowadays they're so much more understood. But I think

understood. But I think having it ways to safely purge and not as a way to amplify our our pain, but it a way to dispel our pain for us, right,

for us as individuals. So key. And even

if there still needs to be discussion and and notions of accountability is sure but but all of that can be had in a much more like effective way I think if we're handling the part that's ours you know this whole like you know my part of

the street your part of the street. So I

think about this a lot and I think the masculine feminine dynamic and and what one is responsible for and what others are responsible for is like the issue

like the issue. and Huberman. Dude, this

was so amazing. Like honestly, thank you so much for coming on. I have, like I said, we've known each other for a long time. First time on Women of Impact. Um,

time. First time on Women of Impact. Um,

I really hope that by the end of this people leave, really feeling more compassion for each other. I think

having more understanding for each other. Um, and I'm really curious on

other. Um, and I'm really curious on where your how you expel your anger and shame leads. So, please do fill us in if

shame leads. So, please do fill us in if people want to follow that journey. In

fact, where can people go to follow you?

Yeah. Yeah. So, I'm Huberman Lab on all platforms. We have a website with links to all the podcasts and on Instagram, Hubberman Lab X, Instagram, YouTube. Uh

uh it's all it's all Huberman Lab. I'll

probably start talking more about this stuff in the in the months and years to come. I want to say I'm so grateful for

come. I want to say I'm so grateful for this conversation. We didn't end up

this conversation. We didn't end up talking about what I thought we were going to talk about. It turned out to be far more interesting to me. Um and and I didn't anticipate any of it. And um uh I

think what was so much fun for me is um is I learned like a lot of of what we got to here I is because of learning from you and from Tom. You guys are such a beautiful example of like taking your

lives and doing your best and then sharing it with people. And I I I I would be remiss if I didn't say um you know again I don't claim to be the authority on these things. I have flaws

like everybody else. I'm trying to figure it out like everybody else. And

um but I really applaud that you're so interested in bringing on different u viewpoints and opinions like your your desire and intention to bring about let's call it what it is

like healing between men and women is um is undeniable and and it's it's really a wonderful wonderful thing to be to see let alone be a part of. So thank

you.

Thank you guys. Guys, like I said, I've known this

guys. Guys, like I said, I've known this man for a long time. I've been dying to having him on this show for a long time and now is the right time to talk about the difference between men and women so that we can like he said I didn't expect the word heal but that is a beautiful

word right now so that we can start to heal each other you can choose the channels the YouTube channels that just show hey hate and aggression and that is absolutely your prerogative but the reason why you come to Women of Impact so that you can actually build your

confidence you can build your confidence in any area and today hopefully you built your confidence in relationships so that you can be more compassionate and show your partner more love and respect and just create a safe place for

them to be. So guys, thank you so much for watching. If you're not subscribed,

for watching. If you're not subscribed, smash that subscribe button down there.

And until next time, be the hero of your own life. P.

own life. P.

That was a lot of fun.

If you want to better understand how men actually really think, then you've got to watch this episode with one of the alltime great, Dr. Aean. Now, you've

scanned over 250,000 brains and have concluded that yes, men and women's brains are different and it can actually show up in subtle ways.