What’s pushing young New Zealanders out? - World Questions, BBC World Service

This is the BBC World Service.

I'm Jonny Dymond and welcome to World Questions New Zealand.

The people of the South Pacific Islands live in one of the safest, most peaceful countries in the world. Life expectancy is high.

Much of the country's energy comes from renewables, the air tastes sweet, and its landscape of mountains, rivers and sandy coves is breathtaking.

It seems to have everything going for it.

But more and more New Zealanders are leaving.

Why are people leaving New Zealand?

And what, if anything, can make them stay?

New Zealanders will go to the polls later this year, and it will be the basics that dominate the cost of buying or renting property, the price of food the way that wages have not kept up with those prices lurking behind our arguments over how to build an economy that grows strongly enough to keep New Zealanders in New Zealand.

The price of everything is driving emigration, as Kiwis strike out for a better standard of living.

Exploiting the resources that New Zealand has in abundance runs into the deal struck between incomers and the indigenous Maori.

The Treaty of Waitangi, signed long ago by the British, with the Maori now the subject of much debate as New Zealand discusses the balance between economic growth, environmental protection and the rights of those whose ancestors made the land their own.

With me to take questions from across the country is our panel.

Chris Bishop MP is a member of the governing National Party and currently the Minister for housing, Transport and Infrastructure as well as leader of the House.

Ginny Andersen is an MP and a former justice minister, now the opposition Labour Party spokeswoman on jobs, income, police and the Treaty of Waitangi negotiations Shane Jones MP as Deputy Leader of New Zealand First, one of the three parties in the governing coalition.

His Minister of Oceans and Fisheries, Marama Davidson MP is co-leader of the Green Party.

She's a former Associate Minister of Housing and holds her various portfolios for the party, including conservation, child poverty reduction and social investment.

Let's go to our first question, and it comes from Johan Mendonsa.

Kia ora, penalists.

My name is Johan Mendonsa and I'm based here in Auckland in Tamaki Makaurau, and here's my question to you all.

What is a New Zealand government doing to prevent Kiwis from leaving overseas in droves?

For instance, in my personal life I know a lot of friends from uni who have already migrated to Australia and Europe and also North America, and I feel this mild pressure going on me too. Thank you very much, Johan.

me too. Thank you very much, Johan.

Net emigration of New Zealand citizens has gone from around 3300 in 2021 to now 44000 in 2024.

Shane Jones from New Zealand first party.

Well, I think the first thing we should never overlook is there's a rich tradition of young Kiwis going overseas anyway.

But obviously the government is endeavouring to grow the economy.

The government is changing a whole host of regulatory frameworks to reduce the cost of housing, to increase the range of jobs by using our resources in a more vigorous way than has previously been the case.

But I have to share with you, coming out of the Covid experience, it has taken quite some time for our small economy, a $420 billion GDP.

That's Kiwi dollars.

But most importantly, we have an unfettered approach to not only growing but expanding the size of our footprint in terms of using our resources, expanding those industries that have historically, served us very well.

After a period of time where we've been in a deep rut coming out of the Covid experience. Thank you very much indeed.

Marama Davidson, co-leader of the Greens.

Well, actually, this government is doing plenty to keep driving in record numbers, especially young people away in numbers that we haven't seen before.

And why should we be surprised when we have a ten year record unemployment, when this government has continuously slashed investment into public system, slashed jobs in the public sector, made it hard for people to earn a living that keeps up with the cost of living, made it hard for people to find housing and health care.

So we shouldn't be surprised that we are seeing record numbers in droves.

Looking for a quality of life when in fact the government can.

All governments can and should make better decisions to instead invest in jobs.

We've put up a plan as the Green Party that shows we can protect our environment and create 40000 plus jobs, whether it's in construction and actually making things which this country has traditionally been good at.

There is a way we can keep our young people here, but this government is making decisions that lead them to run away instead.

Thank you. Chris Bishop from the governing National Party.

You're also the minister of Housing and Property costs.

Renting and buying are a critical part of the squeeze on young people, aren't they?

Can you just explain well to Joanne what the government is doing?

Yeah. Thank you, Johan, for your question.

I think you hit upon the right point, which is housing is a major driver of social inequity in New Zealand, particularly for young people.

When I talk to many people, well, frankly, my generation, I'm only 42, which is not that old, and, you know, they stare at the housing market and they say, how can I ever afford to get on the property ladder because housing is so expensive?

And here's the crazy thing, there's only five million of us.

In a change, our land mass is the same size as the United Kingdom where you're presenting from.

But yet we've got a housing market where the average house in Auckland is about a million bucks. It's even worse in Queenstown.

Other parts of the country are better, but it's a crazy situation.

And so we are focused on the fundamentals of fixing housing supply.

I'm really pleased actually, to be able to say that in the last quarter, we saw the biggest first home buyer percentage of the market in 2025 years.

So we're making some progress. But there's a long way to go.

And you know, my dream is of a housing market which is affordable for people to rent. But most importantly, it's affordable for young Kiwis to get into the housing market.

So we're focused on the fundamentals, and there'll be lots of people who say to you, you know, first home grants, you need to tinker with this, tinker with that.

Actually, it comes down to land supply, letting our cities grow outwards but also upwards.

And we're focused on building housing around the major new metro rail system that we're building in Auckland, for example, that started life ten years ago and will open later this year.

So we're focused on that and also sorting out the infrastructure constraints that stop that.

But the answer is unfortunately not going to happen tomorrow or even next year.

It's a long term plan to grow to make sure we can grow housing supply.

The wider context is this New Zealand needs to grow at an appreciably faster rate than other countries.

To stop the exodus of people leaving New Zealand.

We have an open labour market with Australia so young New Zealanders can go off to Sydney and Melbourne and they do and we want obviously everyone on the panel wants young Kiwis to look at the New Zealand job market and say, you know what, there are opportunities here for me at home.

Thank you very much indeed.

Ginny Andersen from the opposition Labour Party.

what is the New Zealand government doing to prevent Kiwis from leaving in droves?

Nothing at all. In fact, they're driving people away.

And we've seen a ten year high in unemployment in New Zealand.

Close to 70000 New Zealanders have left over the past year.

That's a record number. My son, my oldest son has moved to Melbourne because he can't find work here in the Hutt Valley and Wellington.

And my brother, my own brother, who's a trained school teacher, now works in China, because the wages are better there.

And this is the reality for many New Zealand families who have been divided because people are forced to go offshore to get the wages they need to live.

The cost of living has grown so much that many New Zealanders have given up hope that seeing a future here for themselves and their children, and that's heartbreaking for me.

And it drives me to to want to take action and to deliver a real policy.

This election that shows New Zealanders that they can have a future here, and that they have a government that doesn't say things like, it's not our job to create jobs for people like the current government says.

We believe that there is a role for the government to create jobs, to build our country, to make it stronger, and to give people hope that they'll have a future here.

Johan, can you give me a flavour of, I mean, of what it is like of the challenges that you see, you've heard from the panellists, you've talked about the pressure that there is.

You've talked about friends who are leaving.

Can you give our audience an idea of the pressure that you are under financially and that your friends have faced?

Yeah, sure. For context, I am an engineering geologist, so quite involved in infrastructure projects across the country.

And, I started off as a graduate and had moved from Christchurch, where I grew up, and moving to the Big Smoke, Auckland, that is, was a bit overwhelming in the sense it was a big city. Yes, plenty of opportunities.

New Zealand's economic powerhouse essentially.

But I was also given an opportunity to work in Australia, in Queensland for a while through my company, and while I was there, I was sort of mesmerised or blown away by the amount of investment and infrastructure.

And not to say that New Zealand doesn't do that much, They do. You know, it does punch above its weight at times,

They do. You know, it does punch above its weight at times, but I do feel like, you know, wages in Australia, for example, and the ease of migrating to Australia is somewhat attractive to me.

But, you know, as always, New Zealand will be home and I can choose to come back home at the end of it if I want to, or I can choose to live overseas.

Does that does that help? Yeah, it does help a lot. Chris.

Chris Bishop, Minister for housing, I've got a question for you.

The question was, what is the New Zealand government doing to prevent Kiwis from leaving in droves?

Is that the government's job to do something, or does it need to get out of the way?

Well, the government's job on my view, is to build the macroeconomic and fiscal conditions for growth to occur in the economy so that people want to stay in New Zealand.

Growth just doesn't come from the government waving a magic wand.

You know, if it was that easy, every government in New Zealand history over the last 30 or 40 years would have done that.

And the reality is we've come out of a really tough situation.

During Covid, inflation was north of 7%.

Government spending went up by 50% in six years, government debt blew out to $100 billion.

We've had a very troubling and difficult set of circumstances to deal with as a government over the last couple of years. We're making good progress, but I don't pretend for a moment that everything is perfect in New Zealand.

Clearly it isn't. There is a deep unease amongst many New Zealanders about the state of New Zealand in the world.

And I frankly think it's incumbent upon all of us in politics to deal with that and go for policies that deal with the long term structural drivers of the underperformance of the New Zealand economy.

It's not just the last two years. It's not even, frankly, the last six years.

It's actually a 30 year problem in New Zealand.

Okay, Johan, one last question to you.

Which way are you leaning at the moment? Do you want to stay or go?

I think I'd stay, but from the perspective of New Zealand's landscape.

But at the same time I feel the inclination to leave more to grow from a financial perspective. Johan, thank you so much for your time.

Let's go on to our second question, which is related in terms of questions of infrastructure and investment.

It comes from Heather Karsten. Hi there,

Heather. Good evening. Good evening.

We've had about 15 years of unfettered immigration and it's seen our infrastructure creak so badly.

It looks like a swaybacked 40 year old horse.

Our health, our housing, our roads, nothing's coping.

So I've got to ask, why are we letting in so many unskilled people when they're not the right ones that we need, and we just don't have the budget to provide for them.

Thank you very much, Heather. Why is New Zealand, this is Heather's question, letting in so many unskilled people, when they aren't what we actually need and we haven't got the budget to provide for them?

Just a little context. There are 125000 arrivals of non New Zealand citizens in 2025, which led to a net increase in the country's population of 10000.

And the New Zealand Productivity Commission recently said that much of New Zealand's infrastructure is under strain, echoing, of course, Heather's comments just there.

Marama Davidson, co-leader of the Greens.

Why is New Zealand letting in so many unskilled people? Asks Heather.

Well, there's two questions I'd like to put back, which is why have we had actually at least 40 years, for decades of underinvestment in infrastructure, in public housing, in schools.

In fact, this very government has pulled back and cancelled thousands of builds on public houses, has cancelled housing developments, has cancelled schools, has cancelled ferries.

So far, too often migrants end up being the scapegoats for successive governments and not investing when really there is enough.

If we properly invested as governments, should be in public housing and infrastructure instead of scapegoating migrants.

And when we're talking about skills, we're actually talking about wages, because if, for example, you know, wealth was a sign of hard work, then our communities, nurses and construction builders in our communities would be billionaires and millionaires.

So I don't want us to confuse and actually get sucked in by this argument, which scapegoats migrants.

And we know that when migrants are scapegoated, it's migrants of colour because that's what is seen in the communities.

And the Greens will never, ever buy into that rhetoric, when instead we should be focused on the underinvestment where everyone has what they need to live good lives rather than be sucked into, for example, what New Zealand First does, which is both underinvest support governments that underinvest in infrastructure and then turn around and blame migrants for the lack of resources for people.

Well, let's go straight to Shane Jones from New Zealand First to respond to that point.

There's an election on November the 7th in New Zealand.

We are going to provide a clear option for the voters.

We don't believe in a big population policy.

We think immigration has been used to prop up GDP.

We fear that the host society culture is under threat because of unfettered, unplanned immigration.

My personal view is that this is likely to be one of the pivotal issues that will determine the outcome of the next election.

We only have to look overseas to see how unplanned and dangerous levels of immigration have destabilised certain areas of Australia.

Before I even talk about Europe and the UK and look, you can deploy whatever criticisms you like, you can use rhetoric, but Kiwis will not and do not accept a huge surge of immigration coming into our country that has never been campaigned on.

It's grown worse under the rubric of international education.

Also, we've ended up with people who need us, too many who we don't need.

And I look forward to putting those issues awkwardly, perhaps for some people, but very lucidly and very loudly to New Zealand voters in November.

Shane Jones, thank you very much.

Ginny Andersen from the opposition Labour Party. Why are we letting in?

Why is New Zealand letting in so many unskilled people?

It doesn't need and it doesn't really have the infrastructure for?

I think the question we need to be asking is, why are all New Zealanders that we're training leaving the country in such large numbers that it creates gaps in our labour workforce, that then we're required to have to look for people to fill those areas.

And so if we just look alone at our health sector, we've got people leaving in droves because the system is broken.

If we look at our construction sector, for example, over 20000 job losses in our construction sector, largely because of this, government cancelled large projects without any big warning to the construction sector.

So I think there's a big question there in terms of making sure that the country is the government is making those right decisions long term for our country.

I know from my experience as an MP that our migrant communities are hugely valuable to New Zealand.

They provide a rich diversity, they are incredibly hard working.

And when I look to see what our founding document is, the Treaty of Waitangi, it is that basic partnership of how we treat each other and how we respect each other that paves the foundation for how we function as a multicultural country.

And I think that's incredibly important to our national identity.

So you'll never hear from Labour in terms of using, saying that those groups are causing huge problems when the real problems come from a government that is not looked at the long term workforce and how they're planning properly for our population and our infrastructure into the future.

Thank you very much indeed.

We will return to the arguments over the Treaty of Waitangi in later questions.

Chris Bishop from the governing National Party.

Is there a problem of what our questioner calls, I think, unfettered immigration. And

if there is, is it a cultural problem or is it an infrastructure problem?

I think the answer here is that balance is important.

So should we allow anyone who wants to move to New Zealand to move here without any restrictions?

New Zealanders would say, of course not, and we don't do that actually.

It's actually relatively difficult to move to New Zealand as various people have tried to have found.

On the flip side, should we make it so difficult to come to New Zealand that we don't have the ability to fill skill shortages like GPS and like nurses and engineers and particular trades that we have a shortage of.

I think New Zealanders who find it hard to get doctor's appointments or find themselves not being, um, serviced properly in hospitals would probably disagree with that proposition, because many of those migrants work in those critical facilities and those critical parts of the economy. So the answer is a balance.

And we have a skilled migration program in New Zealand, largely, which you need skills to come here.

And we have a green list in which it says if there are priority occupations, we need filling for the sake of the economy and for the sake of the provision of services to people, it's easier to come.

And if you're not, it's harder to come.

And there are various English language requirements and things like that.

Net migration is now down to around 10000 per year.

And the the preponderance of that of that number is on people with skills that New Zealand needs.

So I think it's like all things in life you need a bit of a balance.

And New Zealand will always be a country in which we welcome foreign investment and people not from New Zealand to move here, but equally as I think Ginny says and others have said as well, we should also be a country that tries to make sure our young talent, young Kiwis want to stay, and you know, we've built a wonderful little country down here at the bottom of the world,

and I hope we're always a welcoming and tolerant country, and I'll always defend that. Thank you, Heather.

I'm interested in what you make of what Chris Bishop says there when he says there's doctors, there's nurses, there are essential workers in amongst those immigrants who are coming in that concern you.

And who's strain on the infrastructure concerns you as well.

What do you make of that?

If we look at the actual stats in the last 20 years, 65% of the growth of New Zealand's population has been through immigration.

The biggest concern that I think that we've got is we have this kind of thing where you bring your family in and none of the none of the MPs here have touched on that, that you can actually bring your families with you.

So we do have we do have a lot of people who are coming in, and I'm just going to use this as an example who may bring in their family.

We have this law in New Zealand where you can you have to live somewhere before you, you know, for ten years before you can, for example, use the pension.

So we do have people coming in who are using what we need, who may never have paid into to that. And I'm just using this as a base thing.

We do have the problem of infrastructure.

I'm not disagreeing that we need health and we need a number of others.

But when you look at 65% of the increase in population in 20 years, is immigration not, you know, not we're not producing our own and not having as many children as they used to have, so we do rely on that.

But the basic answer still has to be that if you look in the last 20 years and we've had an increase of 1300 hospital beds, when we've got a population increase of 1.3 million.

Tell me, how does that work?

Can I ask you about the cultural question as well?

This is an issue that is roiling the developed world, the rich world migration across Europe.

As Shane Jones said here in the UK, in America, obviously.

Does it concern you, Heather, that you are having significant numbers of people coming in who are not, as you might see it, at one with the New Zealand way of doing things?

Or is it more about the strain on hospitals, the strain on schools, the strain on budgets?

I'm old enough to to to know what it was like when we had a very good health system, very good education system.

We were certainly leaders in the world when it came to that.

I have no issue with the cultural side of things.

You know, every nation has to evolve.

Civilization itself has to evolve.

And I mean, let's face it, even new English are a conglomeration of a lot of different cultures, you know, so we're much the same in that.

But I do think that before you invite someone into, if I use the analogy, if I invite someone into my home, then I am going to make sure I have enough beds to put them.

I have enough spuds in the pot to cook for them and it's household budgeting 101.

Before you open the doors, make sure your house make sure your house is fit and able to take them.

Heather, thank you so much for your question. Thank you so much for your thoughts as well. It's been a real pleasure having you on the program. Let's go to our next question.

And it is with Finn Brownlie. I hope I pronounced that right, Finn.

You have. Perfect. Give us your question.

My questions are primarily about Maori rights and conservation.

The current government is trying to undermine the historic land rights of Maori, as enshrined in the Treaty of Waitangi.

They want to open up our country to be exploited by multinational companies extracting minerals from our pristine nature, of which we profit a lot from, tourism.

I believe that their plan degrades Maori rights and degrades our environment.

I genuinely believe it's a serious mistake that the country will bitterly regret in time.

Does the panel agree? Thank you,

Finn. Thank you very much indeed. Just a couple of points for context.

The Treaty of Waitangi was the agreement struck between the British colonizers and most but not all indigenous groups in New Zealand back in the 1840s.

There are different interpretations of the land rights agreed and granted under the treaty.

There was an attempt by one party in the parliament last year to define those rights, and then put the results to a referendum that was defeated in the parliament.

And just on top of that, there are new laws going through Parliament that would change the planning system and the consent system around infrastructure and housing projects.

Chris Bishop from the governing National Party, minister for housing, minister for infrastructure.

Do you agree that your plan degrades Maori rights and the environment?

No, and but I respect the questioner and thank you for your engagement.

One of the great success stories of New Zealand over the last 30 years has been the reconciliation, if I can put it like that, between tangata whenua, the original indigenous people of New Zealand, Maori and the Crown, and the apologies for past wrongs and redress given in relation to breaches of the treaty,

particularly land confiscations in the 1850s and 60s and so on.

Those agreements, called treaty settlements, are at the core of the coalition agreements that make up this government.

And honoring those agreements is, firstly, a legal requirement on the government, and secondly, is a core part of what we are about as a government.

Within that context, I don't accept the proposition that we can't use mining in New Zealand to help grow the economy.

As I'm sure Shane will tell you, and he's the Minister of Resources.

We are blessed with abundant natural resources in New Zealand, including coal and gold and silver and a range of other minerals that is increasingly in hot demand.

And 20 minutes ago, we had a discussion around New Zealanders leaving to go overseas.

Well, guess where many young Kiwis go?

They move to Australia and guess where they work?

They work in the mines of Western Australia and Queensland.

And, you know, if we want to grow the economy.

Mining is a part of that. I don't think we should be crazy about it.

I think there should be environmental conditions.

There are some things we shouldn't mine, and there are some areas we should never touch because they're too beautiful and too part of our national national park system, for example.

But there are lots of areas in New Zealand where we can and should mine responsibly.

And that is about growing the economy and providing those opportunities that we've spent the last 25, 30 minutes talking about.

Thank you very much, Chris.

Let's go to Ginny Andersen from the opposition Labour Party.

And one of your briefs, I think, is about the Treaty of Waitangi, isn't it?

It is indeed, and we are I think we're blessed here to have what I see as a framework that can bring people together.

Just recently was Waitangi Day held in the place where the treaty was signed.

And part of that was the Iwi Chairs Forum, which is the heads of Maori tribes.

And one of the key concerns raised at that forum on Waitangi Day to the government was the fact that the changes to the Resource Management Act are undermining already agreed Treaty of Waitangi settlements.

In those settlements, there are provisions that enable local Maori tribes to be able to have control over resources, over management of food gathering, and the right of them to be consulted in that and the new proposed legislation.

The Resource Management Act changes that Chris Bishop spoke about that directly contravenes some of those undertakings that governments previously have made to Maori. That is hugely problematic.

But that is just one thing of many that this government has done against Maori.

The fact that we had a treaty principles bill entertained by this government that saw people march up and down our streets, you know, at a time in the world where we are seeing unprecedented division in height, we have an opportunity here in New Zealand for people to be united.

Thank you very much. Marama Davidson, you're co-leader of the Greens, you're also a fierce advocate for Maori rights, aren't you?

Do you believe as I think our questioner does, that the plan degrades Maori rights, degrades the environment?

Yes. We have a clear example right now where this government is undermining Te Tiriti [The treaty] and rights for Maori to have a say over their coastal areas.

For example in the current marine and coastal areas bill, It seeks to do exactly that, Finn, to undermine the protection that Te Tiriti offers to all New Zealanders, protection to nature and our living systems, and protection to people, especially from offshore corporate giants who are seeking to exploit our people and our land.

Time and time again, we have seen tribal groups around the country stand up and fight strong and hard for us, protecting our living systems, for example, from offshore mining.

We're seeing that right now, and it is Te Tiriti, it is that agreement which offers that protection to the majority of the people who have sent a clear message to this country.

Please do not sell us off for the highest bidder to ruin our mokopuna so our grandchildren's inheritance for their natural environment.

Please protect the rights of our indigenous people. Ginny is right, we saw that uprising like we have never seen before in favor of protecting indigenous rights.

This government absolutely is undermining them.

But also final point.

If your idea for economic growth requires the destruction of our environment, which is short term, and once you've destroyed habitats and indigenous species, they're gone for life.

If that's your only way to see an economic growth, then that is a very limited, narrow economic thinking where we can instead invest in a modern economic thinking, create the jobs that our communities actually need and desire, like construction, like building things like protecting nature.

That is what the sorts of jobs that are going to take us into a future economy for our grandchildren.

Thank you very much. Shane Jones from the New Zealand First party.

You're also minister for oceans aren't you?

So presumably you have a rather large stake in this when it comes in particular to offshore mining.

Well, the first thing I'd say is your listeners have been served up some predictable tropes that somehow New Zealanders have to be condemned to a Garden of Eden existence.

And every time we touch the earth, it's going to leave some permanent, irredeemable disfigurement.

That level of naivety and juvenile thinking is why our people are leaving, because we are not generating the economic surplus on a regular basis.

Over 38% of our landscape is tied up in conservation, estate, and related land reserve status. On the question of Maori, so obviously I come from a long background in settling the Treaty of Waitangi claims. In 1986,

I was the translator for my own tribe on one of the most historic Treaty of Waitangi claims. During the period of our structural adjustment from 1984 to 1990.

We also privatised access to our fisheries rights, and that led to some very large and memorable claims from the tribes.

And I went on to be the chairman of the organisation that held those rights and large amounts of capital.

So I think it's easy to fall into the trap that somehow we're going backwards on these issues.

Each generation is defining what is an appropriate role for the Treaty of Waitangi.

It went through a long period of time of being neglected, and now the Treaty of Waitangi has enjoyed a great deal of contestability not to wipe it out of existence, but to ensure that the role that it plays is consistent with the tenets of a participatory, participatory liberal democracy.

We shouldn't fear that. It's when you suppress and cancel those debates, then you do create divisiveness.

And I'm very confident about our future as a five million odd people.

I think that the Maori presence year by year is actually growing and expanding.

Thank you very much indeed. I want to go back to Finn.

I mean, a couple of points come out of in particular what Shane Jones says, but also what Chris Bishop says.

One is that you have an evolution in the way that the treaty is interpreted and is executed, and the other is that there is a trade off if you want to keep people in New Zealand, this is their argument.

You need to have a growing economy and that will mean, more projects, more mining, more infrastructure.

What do you say to those two arguments, Finn?

Well, I'd say that the majority of our economy is made up by services instead of resource extraction.

Tourism is a very, very large part of our country and delivering services as well.

I really don't feel that mining is really the path to take.

And it almost feels somewhat dishonest to, you know, clean, beautiful New Zealand, you know, it's what we're known for.

I feel that would really go to defeat the purpose and sort of be hypocritical.

And in terms of Maori Crown, relations, I found that tensions between the Crown and the indigenous natives have gotten to the point, like 20 years low, maybe even 30.

I respect Shane Jones's role and impact dealing with indigenous issues, I just very much feel that this current coalition government has really gone to make relations worse.

Finn, thank you for your question. Thank you for your thoughts as well.

That's it for world questions, New Zealand.

A big thank you to our panel and all the questioners that contributed to this debate.

Next month, we will be heading to the small Caribbean country of Guyana, where a spectacular oil discovery has given it the fastest growing economy in the world, right next to Venezuela.

For now, I'm Jonny Diamond. Goodbye.