Why 75% of Marketers Are Useless - And How to Join the Elite 25% with Mark Ritson

every time you sell your product on a non-recommended retail price basis, accept that you failed. Don't celebrate

revenues that came in at 30% off because you've got a world of pain coming as a result of that, right? You probably

aren't that profitable. You've

commoditized [music] your brand. You've

pissed off all the customers that paid full price. You've pulled forward all of

full price. You've pulled forward all of this demand that you now won't have in the next sector. And all the other distributors are now going to line up and say, "Right, well, that was great.

It's my turn next." So, [music] it's in the litany of bad business decisions.

Running a price-based promotion, if you don't have to, is probably the most idiotic thing you could ever do.

Hi, I'm Nick Hey, and welcome to the world's greatest business thinkers podcast.

I don't think anyone has more marketing knowledge than Mark Ritson. He spent the last 25 years working as a marketing professor. In the past, he's been an

professor. In the past, he's been an assistant professor at London Business School, an associate professor at Melbourne Business School, and visiting professor at MIT.

He's also worked as a global brand consultant for clients that include LV, McKenzie, Johnson and Johnson and Debeers and was an in-house brand consultant in Paris for LB MH.

He's won numerous awards and has been a columnist for 20 years writing a weekly column for marketing then marketing week and now ade and the drum.

These days, you can find him teaching his many MBA courses on marketing and brand management from his base in Tasmania, where he resides with three Tasmanians, plus many idiot rescue dogs,

often in his underpants, drinking wine.

His words, not mine. I know you're going to love this podcast. There's lots of amazing guests coming up as well, so please subscribe wherever you listen to your podcast and you'll never miss another episode.

Welcome to the world's greatest business thinkers podcast, Mark.

Good to see you, mate. How are you?

Well, I'm very good. It's uh it's been a while. It's uh since since the last I

while. It's uh since since the last I was I was trying to work it out. It must

be three years. Have I got that right?

It it is about three years cuz uh well, times have changed for me. I'm uh I uh I left the agency I was running. Um, so

you know, global research studies, uh, are now a thing of the past. And now I'm I'm stuck in between these four walls, uh, you know, running a podcast, but speaking to the world's greatest business thinkers, which, you know, I

definitely count you as one of those. So

lucky to have you here.

Well, I wouldn't, but then you told me you were dropping like name dropping that Gary Hamill's on next, so I I, you know, I mean, I question my own presence here, but you the title of your podcast is well earned. If you're getting the

likes of Mr. Hamilton, then it's the real deal, right?

Well, it is. Uh, in fact, Gary's busy and he's had to push it now to January, so but he he is still I take it all back. I take it all back.

It's not the real Well, I mean, we're just I suppose we're lucky. I know we're speaking and you're

lucky. I know we're speaking and you're there based in in Sydney in Manley. Um,

just lucky that you're not sat in your underpants, I suppose, which you do say you often are on your LinkedIn profile drinking wine.

How do you know I'm not sat in my underpants? I'm in a bedroom.

underpants? I'm in a bedroom.

Very true. Very true. But

you might you might be lucky to even get underpants out of me at 8:00 at night, mate. I'm telling you, you know,

mate. I'm telling you, you know, trousers.

We're two northern bloss. So, if I was sat in Sydney right now, I'd probably be doing the same. Um,

you let it all out.

I think I think most people uh know who you are, Mark, but maybe not know maybe of your your early years and what drew you to to marketing. So what I'm interested in starting off in in

understanding is was there a pivotal moment that attracted you to marketing as as a discipline?

No, it's really disappointingly uh um source origin. I've always been into it.

source origin. I've always been into it.

So I was the guy that did his A levels and went to do a degree in marketing in the in the 80s, you know what I mean?

Like when it wasn't really that common, you know, I went to Lancaster because it was the biggest first best marketing department in the UK. I had no interest in going to Oxford or Cambridge, you know, I was

I was off all I wanted to do was get two B's and a C and get to Lancaster because I and this was, you know, obviously at 17. So I I can't explain it. I've always been into it and and um

never never lost interest in it, you know what I mean? Like so most marketers have that moment where like and that's when I realized I loved marketing.

It's so far and so deep with me I can't I can't analyze it. You know,

it's ingrained.

It is.

Did you um did you have a mentor mentor back in those early days?

No. No. I mean, my PhD supervisor, Richard Elliot, was was super important to me because obviously he he sort of clutched me out of the undergraduate world and got me into a PhD and he was

brilliant. But I'm very much, you know,

brilliant. But I'm very much, you know, for good and for bad. I remember Spike Milligan doing this thing where when he was pretty much close to retiring and

deaf, he gave this great speech where he said, "I I I I I want to thank um nobody because I did it all by myself, you know, and it's not quite that bad, but

no, there weren't really any mentors. It

was more me being a a prick really from the outset."

the outset." Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, I suppose as

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, I suppose as mentors, I rode on the the coattails of my father. who was a career market

my father. who was a career market researcher and entrepreneur. So, we we set up our agency on that. But from a marketing perspective, I do need to say that I've probably learned more from from following you um reading your

articles and I did attend your marketing MBA course. So, I need to

MBA course. So, I need to you were a fine student, too. I seem to remember you doing quite well. So, yeah,

I'm uh I'm honored, mate. I'm honored.

So, I'm really your mentor. That's what

we're saying here, isn't it? That's

totally [clears throat] Well, I think I think you're Yeah, you're everyone's mentor here, Mark. And

we'll we'll say that. I bet you're [ __ ] saying that to Gary Aml in January as well. I bet you, oh yes, yes, yes.

Well, I've never been on his course, so there you go. You've got one up.

There you go. There you go.

[snorts] Uh, so in terms of branding, you know, was was that when you started looking at marketing, did you always be uh, you know, navigate towards branding or was there another area of marketing that

intrigued you?

No, that that's an interesting point. I

mean, like I think most people, it was advertising that sucked me in to begin with. And I when I finished my degree, I

with. And I when I finished my degree, I ended up getting a scholarship to go off to Wharton in the States. But if it hadn't happened, I would have ended up at one of the big ad agencies. I got a

couple of jobs. I think it was at at DDB and another one at what was then Dave Trotz agency, GGT.

Um, and it was advertising I was into.

And it was only when I finished the PhD and started being a junior professor in the states that the penny dropped that advertising was kind of the tip of the

spear, but it wasn't really the spear itself. And it was also kind of when you

itself. And it was also kind of when you taught it and as I started to work in it more in practice, it was kind of like, oh, hang on, there's a deeper ocean underneath, you know? And so I can

remember absolutely explicitly 1999 coming back to London and being uh switching to being assistant professor at London Business School and coming

back to the UK and going right I'm a branding professor. That's the switch

branding professor. That's the switch I'm going to make. From my early years of being a professor in the US I was an advertising professor.

When I got to to London I was like I want to bring in the brand management class to LBS. And so that was a that was probably the first strategic thing I ever did was making the call that it was

going to be brand for me. And I remember that being very explicit.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean I my focus initially from uh well from a professional background I I suppose I got drawn to customer loyalty and customer experience but well it was 15

years ago a certain Byron Sharp book landed on my desk how brands grow and and since then I've been obsessed with branding too. So that was like the the

branding too. So that was like the the cataclysmic event that made me look at the market totally different as well.

And actually it was a it was quite a pivotal point in uh in my previous agency's history because uh you know since then my uh the the growth trajectory of you know following not not

being too targeted you know going for more mass marketing. Uh it it really did mean that the growth of the brand really took off. So I need to to thank Byron

took off. So I need to to thank Byron for his work there and especially around branding.

Yeah. And it's a it's an important 15 years, right, between how brands grow, getting published, and then long and short. So, yeah, it's been a it's been a

short. So, yeah, it's been a it's been a it's been an important 15 years for sure.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, well, leaning on that then, if I think back to when I started my agency uh in 98. Uh I'd like to think that things are progressing in

in the marketing world. But what's your what's your take on the current state of marketing and branding? How how's the role of marketer changed since you entered the field and do you feel like you know are people not obsessing the

same over just advertising and promotion now and looking at the the broader no I think it's slightly worse not a lot worse but pro I mean I get this sense from an occasional data point that we

are slightly 10% less good than we were 30 years ago we're certainly not improving right for all the talk of data and

AI and and everything else um and stacks and everything when you see the occasional longitudinal data point.

Yeah, you know, advertising is less effective than it used to be. You know

what I mean? So, I I do think we've slipped a little, not too much, but we we certainly haven't made a lot of pro progress. That's for sure.

progress. That's for sure.

Which is crazy, isn't it? When when you think back to all the, you know, the the the books that we're talking about, you know, the the good work from Eronburgg Bass Institute. um you know what lesb's

Bass Institute. um you know what lesb's been well less and and Peter in there like you saying the long and the short of it. Yeah, it's it's crazy that you

of it. Yeah, it's it's crazy that you think we're regressing there.

Well, look, the knowledge is definitely more available and I think that the way that it's been democratized out of universities and and into books like how brands grow and talks

from Les and Pete is brilliant, right?

And if you're a bright younger marketer, the knowledge is there to sort of piece together right?

But that doesn't necessarily mean you're going to do it. You know what I mean?

And and I'm, you know, I'm always stunned by the proportion of marketers that a have no real training in marketing, but b don't know any of the people we've already mentioned. You

know, I mean, it's it sits around 70 75% in the in UK and in most countries, right? And and so I think you can put I

right? And and so I think you can put I mean I'm bound to say this, but you can put a lot of it down to marketers that aren't trained in marketing and don't know that much about it. And it's

unforgivable now given a they work in it and b so much of the knowledge is, you know, democratized and available and and super easy to consume.

Yeah. No, absolutely.

In my introduction, I mentioned you've worked for many different global brands, uh, including all the brands under the the LVMH umbrella, Louis Vuitton, Don Perinon, Hennessy. What's the most

Perinon, Hennessy. What's the most surprising thing you've discovered when working with big brands during your career?

I mean, I think working with Sephora, which is which is an LVMH brand, I'd never worked in for a retailer in pretty much my whole career, and I'd worked sort of against them. And it was always

like, why are these retailers such [ __ ] Why are they obsessed with price? Why are they always squeezing us

price? Why are they always squeezing us hard on on, you know, on supply price?

And and then you go over the over the top and work for a retailer for a couple of months and you you suddenly realize, oh [ __ ] I get it now. Retailers are

selling the same stuff to the same people at the same time in the same place. And their obsession with price is

place. And their obsession with price is because over the road in Sephora's case, there's Alta, right? Alta, which is their big competitor, they have pretty much 80% the same stock. They're in the

same places. They're going after the

same places. They're going after the same customers. So price becomes this

same customers. So price becomes this golden lever. And and it it's just

golden lever. And and it it's just something I'd never thought of before until I actually went in and started seeing it from the retail point of view.

So I remember that being a very big moment in in in realization.

Yeah. [sighs and gasps] Yeah. my focus in branding work with I

Yeah. my focus in branding work with I as a market research agency you know you're uh you're commissioned by larger brands larger companies because they're so far removed from the marketplace and

one thing that hit me I it was B2B where I worked so a lot of industrial companies lots of large chemical companies on the branding research but uh I I just found that you know they uh

they felt that their strength was in their size you know and their scale often when uh you know really it was that That was their downfall. You know,

they were buying acquis acquiring brands and you know, some of these chemical companies, you know, well, most of them over hundred different brands that they're managing and it's not surprising that they lost focus, you know, with

this misaligned brand values. And

it's that's that's what I saw and I think that's probably the commonality is you start working for a lot of these big companies, very successful companies, and just the

abject lack of marketing capability is stunning, right? you when you get behind

stunning, right? you when you get behind the the the front door and you see what's really going on and you really you know when when we were young marketers you assume that

ex famous brand will have you know this incredible bunch of expert marketers who've got joysticks and they can control the perceptions of the market and all that and then you get around the back of it and you're like oh my god you

know whenever you read all these relatively left-leaning uh critics of advertising and branding and they have this image of you know we're all smoking cigars on the 50th floor manipulating

consumers with our dashboards. And it's

like, mate, if you'd ever actually worked in a marketing team, you would be very disappointed in the abject lack of anything that's going on, right? We're

not controlling the minds of children.

Do you know what I mean? Like it's it's a million miles from there.

Absolutely. I mean, I remember being I I remember I and I I still put Coca-Cola up there on a pedestal for some of the work that they they do do, but I remember going in and and running,

you know, a workshop with with a few of their teams there. And I remember being so disappoint I had such high expectations, like you say, for these people that were going to appear around the table. Not this is not a big digger

the table. Not this is not a big digger for Coca-Cola but but but I mean on that point you know you'd think Coca-Cola and that consistency of brand I remember as well you know people back in the day

they had the business cards so they all pass the business cards through to the front and uh you know the differences on the from the business cards even in terms of the brand and the look and the

feel from Coca-Cola. It was crazy how there wasn't that consistency there. So

uh yeah whether it's whether it's B2B or you know large uh B TOC it's it's the same it is talking of big brands and companies my

my previous agency was bought by Densu and and before then I didn't really know the media world that well until it was it was 2018 I mean I knew of the likes

of uh Martin Sorrel and WPP or was in the news but thinking of this whole media world today uh they def definitely seem to have lost their way, don't you think?

Yeah, they look really [ __ ] on a couple of levels. Um, Sorl sent me a message last week. Actually, I can't I shouldn't reveal what it is because it it was probably meant to be private. It

was very funny. Um, I wrote a column about the new Cindy, you know, the new um CEO at WPP and I just thought she was

appalling. Not as a person, but the the

appalling. Not as a person, but the the announcement she gave just seemed naively bad, right? I mean, I get the point she has to, you know, sort of send a shock through the company and alert

shareholders that they're they're going to fix this and it's not been good enough, but I think she's missing the client point where the client's like, "Hang on a minute. I've got all my marketing comm's money with you and

you're saying, you know, we're not good enough. We've we've been a bit crap for

enough. We've we've been a bit crap for the last few years and we've been behind the times." I I think it's going to hurt

the times." I I think it's going to hurt them really badly and I think it was a very naive statement. Um, and I looked it for the first time in a while. I

looked into, you look at WPP's brand portfolio now. It ain't what you would

portfolio now. It ain't what you would have imagined. You know what I mean? In

have imagined. You know what I mean? In

terms of closing down so many of those big prestigious brands. Now, maybe they had to do that, but you do feel like in times of great crisis and and and retraction,

maybe having those brands would have been a little bit more useful, right?

And I I really think there is very big trouble ahead. And the other interesting

trouble ahead. And the other interesting part of all of this is, and I certainly can't explain it, publicists are absolutely [ __ ] killing it.

Yeah, they are.

And and everywhere in the world I go, they're killing it. And so you've got this I mean, old Arthur Sadoon there obviously is a bit of a a bit of a pocket genius. You should get you get

pocket genius. You should get you get him on the program, right? He's one of the great business thinkers of the world. He seems to have stitched things

world. He seems to have stitched things up beautifully and um they just go from strength to strength while everyone else struggles. So yeah, I think we're in for

struggles. So yeah, I think we're in for a hell of a 12 months, never mind 36 months with respect to these agencies.

And I think that their their their reduction of brands in their portfolios is probably going to come back and haunt them.

Yeah. Yeah. No. Well, I read that article uh about Cindy Rose and and you're right, it was a bit of a a car crash. And I think what was crazy was

crash. And I think what was crazy was that she was, you know, talking of AI was gonna save the day as if it was this, you know, new thing that uh, you know, been around years. We're going to

have a look at this AI thing now because this seems to be quite interesting. And

I'm thinking this is all not good. You

know what I mean? And the other point was, you know, I'm sure she's got the best will there, but she sat on their board for five, six years already. She's

part of it. She ain't some, you know, she gave the speech like she'd come in to sort them out. She's been there for for six years, you know what I mean?

So, I think it it looks to me like there's there's there's trouble ahead there. Big trouble.

there. Big trouble.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's Yeah. It's not

about creating these new new adverts.

It's about building brands. But but

speaking of uh of new adverts again, I was having my breakfast this morning and I was reading your your latest article on uh on the new uh the new boss new

ginger leather leather fragrance, whatever that is.

Ginger Leather.

Ginger Leather.

What's your thoughts on that?

Yeah. No, I think it's the worst ad of the year of most years, I think. I mean,

I I it's gen I wrote it as I genuinely experienced it, right? I've been

traveling a lot and I've been going through airports and I've sort of been confronted by the [ __ ] that is the ginger leather campaign. Boss meet boss,

you know, and um it it just got more and more strange. I mean, the final time I

more strange. I mean, the final time I saw it in Melbourne and I was just staring at this ad trying to work out what the [ __ ] was going on, you know?

So, I thought, "No, no, I'm gonna It was literally a real I was like, I'm going to write about this. It's so bad. It's

haunting." You know, it really I'm writing for Ad Week in the States now quite a lot. And what's delightful is, you know, Ade is is a fountain of

positive, upbeat, supportive marketing coverage, but I'm gradually turning Ryan the editor towards the dark side of [ __ ] it Ryan, let's point out that this is

[ __ ] you know? And he's like, yeah. And

so it's the it's the most shared article already today on in AdWeek in the States. And what's nice about it is, you

States. And what's nice about it is, you know, well, it's not nice, but it isn't you go boss, you know, to blame here.

It's not their ad, you know. I mean, one of the early things I've worked a lot in for fashion brands, and what you discover very early on is there's usually a licensed deal with someone

like Cody and and you've sold for 10 or 20 million euros a year, the license.

So, they go off and make the perfume and have the brand name. And and the interesting bit is they've usually got a much bigger media spend than you've got for the fashion brand,

you know, because this is perfume and cosmetics. So whatever you're doing in

cosmetics. So whatever you're doing in your little fashion world is being drowned out six to one by a bunch of people that you've never met and have a completely different vision for your

brand and frankly have only got a four or five or sevenyear contract. So

they're going to milk that [ __ ] for all it's worth. Right. So, um, yeah, that's exactly what happened. And I I've spoken with the boss team and they're like, "Yeah, that wasn't us, mate." You

know what I mean? And we're like, "I know it wasn't you." And they're like, "So, it's it's there's more layers to that." But I would encourage the

that." But I would encourage the listener first of all to look at the ad on ad week where there's a nice big version of it in my column, but get out into the wild to an airport and really

see the full majesty of [ __ ] that is that boss campaign. I've never seen any.

It's technically terrible. Like the

photoshopping is, you know, you and I could do better. Um the the the three the three celebrities look deeply deeply uncomfortable with it. And the whole

thing doesn't make any sense. You know,

the whole concept of these three arbitrary figures meeting around being a boss, you know, it's it's just euro

[ __ ] So, I think Cody deserve to should apologize to Yugo Boss for being [ __ ] and they should try and do better and not do that kind of thing anymore is is

where I'm at with this.

Well, I I've seen it through magazines.

I I was traveling through JFK this weekend.

What do you think? I mean, before you saw the article, did you did it strike you or did you just sort of go with it?

Well, it no, it totally struck me because first of all, I don't know for maybe some of our American listeners and watchers, maybe they wouldn't know Venicious Jr. for example, but Venicious

Junior is a football player, plays for Real Madrid. So, straight away he caught

Real Madrid. So, straight away he caught my eye and then I thought, well, hold on a minute, why is he with Bradley Cooper?

So, I I was looking at this thinking, you know, I just don't get that for starters. And then I didn't know who the

starters. And then I didn't know who the other guy was actually. I didn't either, but he's the biggest sort of Latino star, right? But you've got a whole

star, right? But you've got a whole bunch of Colombians going, "What the [ __ ] is he doing with that American guy?" Do you know what I mean? So, it's

guy?" Do you know what I mean? So, it's

Yeah, they've tried to cover their bases by going after kind of everyone, but they've just confused everyone and putting them together in like what appears to be a virtual

sort of cupboard somewhere. It just

looks like what what are those three guys doing in the darkness there? Do you

know what I mean?

The whole thing.

I mean I I yeah I was laughing so it really did uh you know it hit home to me when you I saw that article pop up this morning on my LinkedIn feed but uh but no the Venicious Junior Bradley and who

that ever that other guy is and then and then I suppose it was the you know the ginger leather that caught me and straight away I'm thinking what? Yeah.

So yeah there was so many questions.

Oh. Oh we've got a special guest star.

Hello. Would come on you can come up and have a Yeah. This is This is

Yeah. This is This is This is This will be great for the audio listener. This is Ray Ritson.

listener. This is Ray Ritson.

Hi, Ray.

Hello, Ray. He's trying to He likes to take my mouse.

Yeah, but he's um he's not going to have my mouse today. You want to say hello to

mouse today. You want to say hello to the to the nice man and then we we'll get you off stage left. Thank you,

Darth.

Is that a money night?

Making a star appearance as well. Bye.

[laughter] Joy children. There you go.

start star start turn from the young Ray the long the blondhaired champion.

Was that a Manchester United kit he had on there?

No, it definitely wasn't. I want to make that very clear. It just happened to be a red and white top. It has no connections to the to the Red Devils at all.

Well, I mean I suppose building on we've just been talking about Cindy Rose strong leadership, clear communication, and then then maybe that takes me on to to Manchester United. I'm a Manchester

United fan. Uh so I've you know been

United fan. Uh so I've you know been living through this turmoil in recent years.

Dream mate. It's been a long 10 years.

Yeah.

Well yeah and uh you know that steady decline uh of what's been going on there. I suppose there's some synergies

there. I suppose there's some synergies maybe between WPP and and Man United uh in terms of those nostalgic synergies at least. that uh the chaotic ownership,

least. that uh the chaotic ownership, the decline United. One thing that, you know, we've often talked about uh is, you know, brands and and you know, Man United still has the the most one of the

most valuable sports brands in the world, even though they've been run terribly for the last, you know, god knows how many years. So, is this sheer legacy or or proof that a terrible

management can't always kill a strong brand?

No, no. I think it's the opposite. I

mean, I've always made the point about leads United on on a similar front, you know. I mean, when when Man United was

know. I mean, when when Man United was successful or Liverpool are currently successful, people talk about how they're these, you know, these giant brands, Real Madrid, you know, but

that's not a test of a brand because the product is very very good at the moment and is, you know, inherently successful.

to prove that you're a strong brand, you've got to do what leads United have done and what Man United is very very very quickly doing as well, which is win

nothing, be terrible, and test the attendances and support over that period. I mean, if you remember, leads

period. I mean, if you remember, leads haven't really been in the top flight for for for almost a quarter of a century, you know what I mean, until recently, but they were still getting top 10 attendances for the country even

though they weren't in the Premier League. So for me that's the ultimate

League. So for me that's the ultimate proof that leads is a special brand and same with Man United you know I mean that there'll always be that perception

that United is a big special club. It

might it could well be 10 or 20 years before they get back again. You know I would not be surprised right the Glazers are as bad as it gets in my book. So but

I think that the brand will stand the test of time and it will come back again. I mean, you're you're you're a

again. I mean, you're you're you're a wee bit younger than me, but I can remember going through that last period with Jimmy Green off and the Greenoff brothers and all that and they they you know, there was a terrible period where,

you know, United went down and Dennis Law sent him down and, you know, it's happened before and United have come back. So, yeah, they're a great brand.

back. So, yeah, they're a great brand.

They just might be another 10 or 20 years of bad product until they get it right again, you know.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and but I suppose it shows the point of that a brand can can provide that buffer and maybe not a golden shield, but a shield for some mismanagement over time at least.

Oh, for sure. Right. I mean, at the end of the day, the you know, we look at we look at products through the rose tinted specs of of brand equity and we see something that maybe isn't there. Do you

know what I mean? I'm a huge Boston Red Sox fan from my days in Boston and for many many years that was the case with the Red Sox. you know, we you know, there was it was awful, but we didn't

think it was awful cuz it was Fenway and it was the Red Sox and there was, you know, the curse was there, but we're going to get through it. And and

eventually, of course, the Red Sox got there, you know, not not this season, mind you.

Yeah. Well, [snorts] we just need Roy Keenan Canar to come in. They'd ruffle a few feathers. Um,

few feathers. Um, you once said most CMO CMOs are useless, and I'm intrigued uh whether your views have changed or do you still think this is true? No, no, it's it's true. I mean,

is true? No, no, it's it's true. I mean,

it goes along with the I mean, they're very nice people, but you know, so is my dad. I wouldn't put him in charge of

dad. I wouldn't put him in charge of marketing at a large company. Um, I

think it goes on all this nonsense about, you know, the average CMO tenure is only three, you know, three and a half years. Average is the key word

half years. Average is the key word here, right? There's a bunch of terrible

here, right? There's a bunch of terrible CMOs who really can't operate at the seat level who are gone within a year of bit. And there lots and lots of examples

bit. And there lots and lots of examples of that. And there's some really good

of that. And there's some really good CMOs who are going a lot longer than three years. I mean, all Mark Pritchard

three years. I mean, all Mark Pritchard still, I was doing a PNG thing last week in Singapore. Mark Pritchard's into his,

in Singapore. Mark Pritchard's into his, you know, second decade on the job. Do

you know what I mean? So, I think, yeah, there there's a distribution, you know, but there's a lot unfortunately of CMOs that aren't much C and aren't much M. Do

you know what I mean? Like they they they really aren't built for it. Um but

there are a few that give us hope and um I think I I think we are in a place where you know that the good smart CMO wins and builds growth and that's not a

bad thing. We don't want everyone to be

bad thing. We don't want everyone to be good right fundamentally marketing is competitive and capitalist. We don't

want everyone to be you know perfect.

People will say to me all the time, oh you must be really depressed about the state of marketing. I'm like, "No, it's great because the good marketers and the ones I'm training are spanking the

market, right? We don't want everyone to

market, right? We don't want everyone to be smart. We're not interested in that."

be smart. We're not interested in that."

Do you know what's the [ __ ] If everyone was smart, you and I would be stupid. Do

you know what I mean? So, I I think yeah, there's some good CMOs, there's some bad CMOs. To your earlier point about Coca-Cola, you just can't assume, you certainly can't assume that if you

turn up and someone's the CMO of a very famous brand that you're dealing with a marketing titan. um as often as not you

marketing titan. um as often as not you aren't. And it's kind of delightful when

aren't. And it's kind of delightful when you discovered they are pretty good and they do know their onions. You know, I was working with um a couple of a couple of them over the summer in the States

and it was kind of like, okay, like Colin Fleming at Service Now, you know what I mean? He's a big CMO at a very big B2B company that said a lot of stuff and so you sort of tentatively go, all

right, here we go. But I was within about 10 minutes you're like, "Oh, no, he's fantastic, right? He's He's

everything you would hope and more. So

when that happens, you also feel pretty good.

Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, for many, we we've talked about it. Marketers were wandering around in

it. Marketers were wandering around in the wilderness, but you know, they've got all this uh information at their their fingertips now. And well, for the the viewers on the YouTube channel, you can see there's Phil and Bernett Books

in the background, Erin Berg Bass Institute, Byron Sharp, uh Jenny Romanuk, uh Les has been a guest as well. So, um, yeah, all very good. But,

well. So, um, yeah, all very good. But,

yeah, I I heard you talk about the the fact that the problem with the the groundbreaking research that Les and Peter did, uh, is that they chose the wrong title for their research. Can you

explain why the long and the short of it should actually be called something else?

Yeah. Um, it's really Orlando's point from system one. I mean, he's been saying it for years, and I never really understood what the hell he was talking about until finally the penny dropped.

Um, If you read long and short literally, you think to yourself, well, obviously there's brand building that takes a long

time to work but has a big impact on brand and top of funnel eventually. And

then there's the short of it and performance which instantly starts driving sales and ROI.

That latter part is true. If you spend money on performance marketing, you instantly when you spend a dollar, you see a you see a an impact in the market.

The minute you stop spending money, you instantly see it disappear. Right? So

that's short. That's the right word.

Orlando's point and one that I've finally got to myself is if you look at all of system 1's data, all of the campaigns which are extraordinarily good

at long-term brand building are also with almost without exception really good at immediately selling product. So

long delivers short. So then you start thinking, well, all right, so short's just short, but long is also short. So

what's going on here? And the answer is it isn't long. It's either lasting or enduring or perennial, right? In the

sense that you run a great TV campaign, it's going to instantly start shifting product the next day, as well as long-term changes in memory structures

and so on that might last for years. So

I think that's a genuine change in how we think about it. And um I think it's a really important observation. Now, it's

not the most uh what would I say? It's

not the most efficient or economical way to drive those short-term sales.

Obviously, more targeted stuff would be better, but nonetheless, this idea that we're going to do a long-term brand building campaign and we're going to wait 18 months for it to have a a big

impact, that's also a nonsense. And I I think that's crucial for the arguments ahead.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's it it feeds into um you know one of the best pieces of uh of advice I was or I read about was through John Doors at Erinberg Bass Institute

that the whole 955 rule and I I spoke to Jenny about that and and it feeds into that doesn't it you know in the fact I always use the um the example of my previous company was a market research

company uh uh but you can't sell market research to someone that's just not in the game uh to to buy market research.

So the 955 rule just to remind people it's you know only 5% of uh of market buyers are in market at any one time. So

we used to taking on those learnings we used to you know spread our bread wide on the water and and market to to absolutely everyone just because we never knew who would have that need for

market research in the future.

No and that's it. I use I use men and haircuts, right? I stay away from women

haircuts, right? I stay away from women and haircuts because it's a more complex thing, right? But if you stand outside

thing, right? But if you stand outside on the high street offering free haircuts, 19 out of 20 men aren't interested even if it's free because they've either they've had a haircut or

they don't need a haircut, you know. Um,

and the point is the same, right?

Approximately 5% of the market want it and 95% don't. And the key lesson from John Doors's work is that it's it's usually too late to go after the 5% when

they come into market. And what you're trying to do with the whole market and 95% of them is establish salience and a couple of key associations. So when they

do enter the 5% you're going to 70 80% of the time win the day. And once you understand that, to your point, you get why 60 70% of your budget needs to go on

brand building because there's 19 times more of them and okay, we want to spend 40% of our budget targeting the 5% with product specific bottom of the funnel

conversion at work. I get it. That's

where the money is right now. But

equally importantly, I want to spend 60% 70% of my budget on the 19 times as many consumers so I'm ready for when they come in later on. And it really isn't

that complicated. And you know, people

that complicated. And you know, people say, you know, how do we get the boardroom to understand this? And it's

like, well, frankly, if they can't get it, there's something wrong with them.

Do you know what I mean? It's it's it's elementary really when you put it that way, you know?

Yeah. Yeah.

So you know marketeers uh whether they're managers, CMOs uh sometimes struggle to to prove that ROI to their peers. What what do you feel are the the

peers. What what do you feel are the the metrics that truly matter for the long-term brand health and how they can how these marketeers can use uh them to defend their actions to the CFOs?

I mean I think proving ROI out of the long-term 95% stuff is very hard. Of

course it doesn't mean that it's not happening. And of course in practice

happening. And of course in practice what it means is if it if you do a really good job of brand building it tends to show up as the 5% 40% performance is working even better right

so that I've worked for a big global sporting company where we got it right for a year and then the the the pull of performance was so great because the brand stuff was making the performance

stuff work even better you know so for me it's about acknowledging you can do your econometrics and I think there's a very strong place for that to show what the overall split might be but week to

week year to year the main thing is realizing if my job here is to build brand among the 100% why don't we measure it that way you know maybe we can't put a direct ROI on it every time

but if I know I've generated salience or awareness in the market if I know they think this and this and those are the big triggers to purchase I'm going to win when they come into the market so I

think for me brand tracking is still the be when it's done well the best evidence that we've invested well and it will pay back. Obviously, that's hard because

back. Obviously, that's hard because there aren't, you know, immediate dollar figures attached.

But we come back to those old cliches about just because you can't, you know, measure it doesn't mean that it isn't actually happening.

Yeah, Christmas is coming, Mark. Uh I know it's different in the US that it's all about Thanksgiving more so there, but here in the UK, the battle of the the

Christmas adverts is coming. John Lewis,

Coca-Cola, we talked about and the big supermarket chains. Um, and I'm not sure

supermarket chains. Um, and I'm not sure whether it's it's travel to Australia.

Probably not, but whether you've seen the most recent John Lewis advert. I

grew up in Yeah. Well, I grew up in the 90s uh with

Yeah. Well, I grew up in the 90s uh with the dance scene. So,

you're the you're the dad in that, aren't you? Really? Basically,

aren't you? Really? Basically,

I am. Well, I'm definitely the dad in there, and it touched a nerve thinking of my son giving me a record player to a record to to reminisce and to play. I

thought it was a it was a good advert.

But um the the refreshing thing I thought was you know and and again you've written about this the fact that Amazon didn't look to reinvent the wheel and they've rerun their their joy ride

advert from a couple of years ago and uh I I thought it was you know I I really liked it. You know stop stop recreating reinventing the wheel stay

with the winning formula.

Yeah the the metabolism of advertising is changing. We're realizing that not

is changing. We're realizing that not just at Christmas, but especially at Christmas, the the same ad from previous years doesn't just work just as well. It

works even better. You know, the holidays is is coming ad from Coca-Cola is getting better and stronger in its sort of third decade of operation. Do

you know what I mean? So, for me, it's it's a very important insight into not producing too much new work. And I spoke to the Amazon team last week in the States when I was writing the column

about it. And um yeah, the the team

about it. And um yeah, the the team there were very clear, you know, it's there's 25 points of of creative investment that we don't need to do that can go into working capital. That's

nice. The team don't have to worry about a brand building ad that can focus on all the other things they have to do because it's Christmas and they're Amazon. Um and they've got a winner and

Amazon. Um and they've got a winner and it will be another winner this year. So,

I think it was a very strong choice.

And, you know, I'm a big fan of John Lewis and a big fan of this year's ad, too. But my question is, why not run

too. But my question is, why not run some of your other ads as well? They'll

perform even better. Do you know what I mean? People keep saying, "Oh, this is

mean? People keep saying, "Oh, this is this is the best one they've done in a few years." I'm not sure if you didn't

few years." I'm not sure if you didn't pull out some of them earlier ads, they wouldn't beat it in in testing.

And the point is, why not? You've got

them in the bag. They're yours. You know

what I mean? Use them. So yeah, I think there's a genuine change in in in in how we time and produce advertising. Less

ads, more spent on them, more pre-esting, and then run much longer.

The data that I've seen from Andrew Tindle is is clearly set around that two to three year mark when ads really start to kick in and get you get your full value for money. And that's a big

challenge for an industry that wants to make a new campaign not not every year but every season.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. And I've seen that I've seen that this year with Cabri, for example. I know they've definitely been running adverts that I saw in my youth or you know, a few years

ago, too. and and actually with that

ago, too. and and actually with that nostalgic rose tinted uh you know view then I uh I you know hark back to those good old days of being younger and and yeah it hits you harder doesn't it

sometimes when you you've seen that advert it definitely does it definitely does and I think you know you see companies like Coca-Cola they've got the holidays are coming but they still have to make an ad which I find quite

pathetic because they've got their AI ad and that's kind of just like keeping them busy you know it's like a kitten with a little ball I've got to make an ad cuz that's what we do just run the

bloody the the big red truck and get out the way. Do you know what I mean? Like

the way. Do you know what I mean? Like

sorry, your job is not to make ads. It's

you've got a you've got the champion there. Just plan it properly and enjoy

there. Just plan it properly and enjoy it, you know?

Yeah. Well, it I mean Christmas really is silly season and uh here in in Manchester in the UK, we've had advent calendars and Christmas music in the

shop since October. Uh but we we've talked about Oh, you touched a bit about it from your retailer experience. This

whole slashing of prices in order to gain loyalty around uh the Christmas time. It it again, you know, have they

time. It it again, you know, have they not learned by now that this is not a strategy for success or can they do they need to go down that route because like you say, 80% of what they're selling is exactly the same in one supermarket to

in the X.

I think that's it, right? I think that that the brands that supply them and then the retailers themselves press the red button of discounting because that's

that's all they can think of. And it is it is a moment where I mean I when I'm training people on mini MBA I I you know we go through the problems of discounting why it's always a losing

move. 98% of the time it's a losing

move. 98% of the time it's a losing move. And then we look at you know just

move. And then we look at you know just do promotions by all means. You don't

have to press the big red idiot button and and take money off the top. Now,

sometimes retailers are going to make you do that. Yeah, I'm not naive enough to believe that, you know, a consumer goods brand can survive without any discounting at all. I mean, there's there's virtually no brands that can.

You know, someone's going to make you discount and you're going to have to go along with it every now and again. I get

that. But don't encourage it. and and

every time you sell your product on a on a non-recommended retail price basis, accept that you failed. You know, don't celebrate revenues that came in at 30%

off because you've got a world of pain coming as a result of that, right? You

probably aren't that profitable. You've

commoditized your brand. You've pissed

off all the customers that paid full price. You've pulled forward all of this

price. You've pulled forward all of this demand that you now won't have in the next in the next sector. Um, and all the other distributors are now going to line up and say, "Right, well, that was

great. It's my turn next." So, it's of

great. It's my turn next." So, it's of in the litany of bad business decisions, running a a price-based promotion, if you don't have to, is probably the most

idiotic thing you could ever do.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's all about the framing of price uh as well.

And in fact, Rory Sutherland was a guest talking about that. And I've got Richard Shawson coming up in a in a few uh few episodes time talking about the behavioral science of how to to position price on that. So again,

super important, right? I'm not I'm a huge fan of both those gentlemen, but I'm not that impressed with behavioral economics, right? I think a lot of it is

economics, right? I think a lot of it is hand trickery and largely tactical and pointless. You know, it's all very

pointless. You know, it's all very counterintuitive and look over there, but really it's over here. A lot of it is wank in my opinion. But in that area of pricing, I think it's genuinely an a

[laughter] an absolutely crucial point is understanding the framing and and and contextualization and communication of price. You know, I've said it so often

price. You know, I've said it so often I'm I'm a I'm a broken record, but the way we communicate a price is more important than the price itself. And so

having those two talking on that topic, I think is is brilliant. And I would encourage listeners to tune in because for me that's, you know, when it comes to pricing, too many marketers aren't

involved in it. And and that means we're not doing the research into it and we're not doing the communication about it.

And that that's a much bigger opportunity than creating good Christmas ads.

Yeah. Yeah. [gasps]

So, um, we've we've talked I've been one of the many thousands of students that have been through the doors of the mini MBA. Uh I haven't done the brand

MBA. Uh I haven't done the brand management MBA and that's purely because of time restraints but I I definitely will do it in the future Mark because I know it'll be [clears throat] a great course.

I'll hold you that Nick. I'll hold you to that.

But um is is it because you know there's so many poorly uh educated marketeers out there that inspired you to create the mini MBA in the first instance?

I think that's partly the reason it's worked. Um also the the relative

worked. Um also the the relative uselessness of universities has helped too. Um yeah there's a couple of things.

too. Um yeah there's a couple of things.

I mean, it was done because I started having children and I couldn't do consulting anymore. You know, there

consulting anymore. You know, there isn't a lot of consulting in Australia, not the kind I do. And I'd been doing it for about 15 years since moving to Oz.

And then once we started knocking out children, you can't just piss off for a couple of weeks to New York City, you know.

So, it it started out with how am I going to make money, decent amounts of money without being able to leave Australia. But you're right. I mean it

Australia. But you're right. I mean it came down to um most marketers don't have a proper training in marketing and on one side but you also you couldn't

blame them because there aren't many people that have got a hundred grand in two years to go and do an MBA at LBS or INSEAD or Wharton to get that high level education.

Yeah.

So my my idea was you know I won the teaching prize at MIT for my core marketing class. I, you know, I I've

marketing class. I, you know, I I've taught it for 25 years at top business schools. Wh why don't I offer good

schools. Wh why don't I offer good marketers a chance to do it in 12 weeks for a couple of grand and skip all the rest of it? And yeah, it's it's been 10

years and 40,000 marketers later and we're still growing and pumping and it's turned out to be a wonderful surprising change in my career. You know, I started

out as an academic. Then I became a consultant and I've ended up as an entrepreneur, which is completely not what I was expecting. You know, I've got a CEO now and and investors and, you

know, a team and and an office in London. And it's kind of like, wow, you

London. And it's kind of like, wow, you know, look at all this [ __ ] going on.

You know, we've got little lapel badges and things like that, you know. So, I

find it very very enjoyable. And it's

God's work, obviously, right? We get

marketers coming out of it. And it

sounds obvious, but if you've worked in marketing, you know, it's quite a senior class. It's guys like you, you know,

class. It's guys like you, you know, people have worked in marketing for 15 or 20 years and they've never been trained and and give them a good training and they go, "Hey, I now know

what I already thought I knew. I've also

learned 50% more about stuff I didn't know. I've joined it all together and

know. I've joined it all together and I'm, you know, I'm super capable and super confident." And watch me go. And

super confident." And watch me go. And

people get em, you know, they get emotional about it at the end of the course.

because what do you know you know if you work in marketing and you get a world-class training in marketing life gets better like straight away you know so yeah it's been a lovely it's been a lovely thing and we've got you know many

more years to go you know we we really have strong aspirations for growth America's a big target now um and we're working very hard so is Germany so we work very hard now with the team at you

know how are we going to do that and that's where my you know my focus is yeah and it's good fun as well. It's uh

you know it is I mean if it's not fun what's the [ __ ] point? I mean, I'm always stuck.

When I used to teach as a proper professor, people would say, you know, oh, the thing that surprised me about the class was how enthusiastic you are and how much fun it was. And I'm

thinking, what are these other guys doing in their classroom? You know what I mean? And it's true. Look, if you

I mean? And it's true. Look, if you can't have fun with it and have a challe, you know, you know, it's 10 weeks of me, you know, you know, on a on

a screen talking to the gang, you know, if we if I can't make you laugh, then, you know, what what is the point? We're

all going to be dead soon. Do you know what I mean? So

the single most common bit of feedback we get these days is we get to Christmas, you know, the end of the 12 weeks, 10 weeks of class and two weeks of exam, and everyone's like, I'm going to miss this so badly when it ends. You

know what I mean? And you're thinking, well, that's that's good feedback, you know, we're happy with that.

Yeah. Well, you just said you're maybe an accidental entrepreneur. Uh but uh would you would you have any advice to give out to to will be entrepreneurs or startups trying to make a meaningful

impact with their business launches today?

I mean I mean there's a couple of things, right? Only have one brand.

things, right? Only have one brand.

Don't start creating a stable of brands and spread yourself too thin. Um don't

worry too much about positioning it precisely at the beginning. It it will move around a little bit a little bit like my kid there. you know, my my lad, you know, we had all these plans for how

he was going to be, and once he pops out, he has his own plans. Brands are

like that when they start out. They move

around. Give them latitude.

Um, and and look, the last thing is, you know, I I think I was relatively old and relatively wise when we started it. It

takes a big bite out of your life. So,

be be ready for that. I, you know, I I worry about a lot of entrepreneurs. They

It sucks everything out of them. And the

definition of an entrepreneur is, you know, you you're going to take risks, too many risks. Um,

you know, it's not it's not all it's cracked up to be, you know what I mean?

I think it it can be at the end. I

certainly feel great about it now, but it's a punishing it's it's different from working 9 to5. Do you know what I mean? And and that's

mean? And and that's it really is. You live and breathe it all the time, don't you? And

there isn't much escape from it, right?

So, you know, I think be be aware of that, too. But yeah, you get to be your

that, too. But yeah, you get to be your own your own guy and and your own woman and do your own thing. Um, but at some point of course what happens is other

people enter the room. No m I mean I've tried to do it very sort of you know in my own special I'll just do it myself you know I'll do everything myself but of course with a little bit of scale and

growth and money people sort of emerge from different rooms and you find yourself sometimes in meetings you're the you know you everyone else is talking about stuff and you're sort of sitting there looking out the window

going yeah it's sort of going off on its own now do you mean which is not a bad feeling either you know that I guess that's when you feel like it's it's properly become something, you know.

Yeah.

So, yeah, look, I'm I'm super delighted with it's made a, you know, a [ __ ] ton of money. Um,

of money. Um, but even with that, with money and growth and investors comes, you know, I I I think an important point is that growth comes with a gigant we're all

obsessed with growth and growth is is overrated. Yeah. Growth brings problems

overrated. Yeah. Growth brings problems in my experience too. And I at one point I had a really naive dream about us just getting a baseline of sales each year

and being happy with that and keep the sales the same and just focus on getting the MPS higher and higher and higher.

It's just nonsense talk, right? There'll

always be money flowing in and expectations of growth.

You can't you can't escape the capitalist monkey. You know what I mean?

capitalist monkey. You know what I mean?

He's always on your back.

Well, as long as you're keeping that balance there, Mark, and uh then uh then that's not coal mining. Do you know what I mean? I mean, that's the point. I coming

mean? I mean, that's the point. I coming

from all my all my grandfathers were coal miners and um and and you know, it ain't going down the pit. Let me put it that way. Do you know what I mean? It

that way. Do you know what I mean? It

ain't that [ __ ] hard. You know what I mean? Flying to Singapore business

mean? Flying to Singapore business class, having people kiss your ass for an afternoon, it ain't going down the pit with ponies. You know what I'm saying?

Right. To finish off, Mark, I've got a usual bank of questions [clears throat] I ask all my guests. So, my last guest was Amy Gallo. She's a workplace expert.

helps people with effective communication. She maybe should have

communication. She maybe should have helped Cindy Rose before, but she helps deal with interpersonal dynamics, difficult conversations, and how to get and give effective feedback. And her

question to you is, marketing is all about how you can get people to follow and and love your brand. But what role does friction and conflict play in developing worldclass marketing?

Oh, I think it's very important. I think

you come to learn at a certain point when you're positioning a brand that sometimes words that don't quite sit together uh provide the energy for the brand. I

mean I you know ginger and leather is obviously going too far but if you look at you know when I worked on Don Perinon the friction between uh power and

playfulness which is right at the core of Don Peron if you study its history and customers and learn it creates something marvelous when you have a little bit of tension there. Do you know what I mean?

So I think yeah I really think friction is is something we need and and I think in America that's what they're missing at the moment. They're kind of so polarized they stay in their own camps

and everyone's afraid to have friction.

And friction can be a very positive thing as long as it's done with good grace and you know and and and a little bit of of understanding. I think you

know telling someone they're wrong but also thinking you may not be correct is I think a fundamentally healthy thing and we need we need more of it. You know

we need more uncertainty and more friction. What we don't need is two

friction. What we don't need is two different groups of people who both think they're right. We're in a bad place because of it. So yeah, love me a bit of friction. If I don't have

friction in my columns and you do you do, you know, mossify after a while. So

you sort of you you start writing more and more pleasant stuff if you're not careful. You sort of take yourself aside

careful. You sort of take yourself aside or I know I do. Well, that's [ __ ] you know, that's not Let's Let's write one that everyone complains about, you know, let's let's look for friction

because if it if it's always going to be smooth and expected, then, you know, at the end of and my favorite experience is, it's just happened to me today. I'm

going up to Brisbane to give a talk for a client and they're like, "Well, no, we want you to be you, Mark, and we want you to do what you do." And then when I do that, normally what happens is after the client goes, "That was a bit strong,

you know, that was a bit much. And I'm

like, right, yeah, okay. Well, that's

what you wanted, you know. So, yeah, I couldn't agree more. Friction is good.

Friction is good.

Yeah. Um, next couple of questions from the listeners. So, firstly from Roland

the listeners. So, firstly from Roland Talahhatu, hope I pronounced that wrong, from Jakarta in Indonesia. And he asks, "What will be the most important things for marketers and brands to master in order to survive in the next 5 to 10

years?"

years?" The obvious but correct answer is is uh being agile enough to work out how they're going to manage with AI. It's

not going to be straight away and it's not going to just knock out all the humans, but it is a significant paradigmatic force. In my twilight years

paradigmatic force. In my twilight years of being a marketing professor, I work quite a lot in this space and it's clear to me that you know my first 25 years of

teaching was training marketers to build marketing plans. It's going to be very

marketing plans. It's going to be very um not not immediate but very soon that we will be able to create incredibly advanced marketing plans from synthetic

data beyond anything humans can produce.

What's my role in that? Well, now the plan is already there. my role becomes the reverse, which is explaining to marketers what the hell this plan means.

You see what I mean? So, there's still a role for me, but it's a different role in a different place than before. And I think that's what each and every marketer is going to have to do is find a a slightly

different place in in the world because AI is that big and will have that impact, I feel.

Yeah. Well, I had uh I had John and Peter on last year talking about couple of couple of idiots. Don't listen

to a word of it. [laughter]

Listen, when I could tell you some stories about those two that would make you Here's one story I can tell you.

Right, Nick? So, the 95year-old is down to to John Lombardo. Right.

Right. So, we went they flew in from the US with various amounts of prescription medication in their system and came straight down to Tasmania to visit me.

And we went on what can only be described as a massive bender uh in Tasmania. And then John, who's just, you

Tasmania. And then John, who's just, you know, an athlete, went off to Erinburgg Bass to talk to John Doors and the rest of them. And me and Pete literally

of them. And me and Pete literally dropped him off at the airport at Hobart and we we had a sleep in the car. That's

how messed up we were, right? John goes

at 6:00 a.m. in the morning to Adelaide, spends the day with Eronburgg Bass, and it's at that point that John Doors in conversation says, and of course, we know that about 95% of the consumers are

not in market right now, blah, blah, blah. And John Lombardo goes, "Wait,

blah. And John Lombardo goes, "Wait, wait, say that again." Right? So, it

it's John Doors's idea and thinking for sure, but Lombardo plays a role in all of that, right? So,

that, right? So, yeah, there are a couple of a couple of lunatics, mate. a couple of loops.

lunatics, mate. a couple of loops.

Yeah. Well, I didn't know that. So, y

thanks to to John Lombardo as well, John Doors there and uh for Yeah. for for

getting up that morning and and making the track.

Super, man.

The the next question is from Gareth Reeve in Sheffield who asks, "B2B branding often defaults to bland thought leadership. Who's doing it right in

leadership. Who's doing it right in Mark's eyes and what can others learn from them?"

from them?" Uh, look, not many. I mean, it's it's there's a couple of things there. Again,

I've been working a bit with I've got a big posy from service now working on mini at the moment. And I think their work on customer portraits and getting

the buying center properly understood is pretty impressive stuff. I have to say Salesforce pretty good on distinctiveness. I think you'd highlight

distinctiveness. I think you'd highlight them for for what they've done there. Um

but generally speaking, it's not a great space. My advice to everyone who works

space. My advice to everyone who works in B2B marketing is don't worry about it being B2B marketing. The minute we split it up and go, well, there's B to B and then there's B to C, we make it a huge

error because we're what we're basically assuming is that B to C group that's kind of uniform. And in there, you've got, you know, trombones, after shave,

insurance, banking, sex toys, you know, you name it, it's all in there. They're

all different. So really, what we're saying is everything is different. And

B2B can learn just as much from B to C as it can from other B2B cases. So I

wouldn't even look at the B2B universe separately. I would say just take the

separately. I would say just take the stuff. What have we learned from the B2B

stuff. What have we learned from the B2B institute at LinkedIn? The stuff from B TOC works even better in B2B. So yeah, I would say don't worry about it. It's not

that strong, but you know it we're all we're all part of the same uh universe.

Well, I'd vouch for that and therefore it's a bigger opportunity, isn't it?

Because no one's really doing it well.

So, super big and I would always take a B2B marketer for a BTOC job for that reason, right? [snorts]

right? [snorts] Yeah. Yeah. What's the best piece of

Yeah. Yeah. What's the best piece of business advice you've ever been given?

Uh, focus on profitability. Uh, Jill

Hennessy, who I work with in a very frightening distant uh way um was always very keen on stressing that revenues were not of any interest unless you knew

what the margin figure was behind it.

And I think that remains a a very important piece of advice. If you follow profit, you'll go pretty pretty much down the right place. If you follow revenues, it invariably takes you to the

wrong place. So yeah, the only reason we

wrong place. So yeah, the only reason we like revenues is they're the carrier drug for profit. Other than that, they're going to tell you to have too many products, too many brands, too many sales promotions, you know, too many

staff, too many sales heads, too many wholesalers.

It'll send you the wrong way, and it usually does. So yeah, follow the money

usually does. So yeah, follow the money and I mean profit not revenue.

Yeah.

And who would you like me to reach out to?

By the way, Nick, incidentally, when when we were when we were working on Mini MBA and private equity was sniffing around us and everything, everyone goes on about recurring revenue streams and all that. And I said, "We don't have any

all that. And I said, "We don't have any of that. We don't sign anyone up for

of that. We don't sign anyone up for multi-year deals, you know." And they were sort of all sniffy. And then I showed them our operating margins and they were like, "Oh, hang on. This is

amazing." I'm like, "Yeah, it is because we don't, you know, we just because we don't do it your way doesn't mean we don't know what we're doing." You know what I mean? So, yeah, profitability is, you know, it's sneered at a lot. But

trust me, when you get into those meetings and you can show always being consistent on revs and always having really good profit margin, the conversation changes real quick.

We had similar conversations actually. I

mean, as a market research agency, most of it was ad hoc. We had a few brand trackers. Uh but exactly that, you know,

trackers. Uh but exactly that, you know, if you if you're successful and you you you can make the profit, then uh yeah, not to be sniffed at. Um who would you like to to hear on this podcast in the

future? Who can I reach out to?

future? Who can I reach out to?

Who would I like to hear from more than I haven't heard already? I mean, there's a there's a strong cast of usual suspects. I really would like you to get

suspects. I really would like you to get um I mean it could be Grace Kite, but Grace is probably more broad than this now, but someone that can really speak to

econometrics and and and the practical role of econometrics and what it can and can't do. I think it's an area where we still

do. I think it's an area where we still we we drop it very frequently in the conversation without actually being specific enough. So, I'd suggest yes,

specific enough. So, I'd suggest yes, someone from from a decent econometric firm that can speak in in English would be great.

Okay. Excellent. Well, uh we'll we'll follow that up definitely. Um and

finally, my next guest is Will Butler Adams. Uh was going to be Gary, but Gary's coming in in in January. So Will

Butler Adams, British businessman, CEO of Brmpton Bicycle, who were better known for manufacturing the the revolutionary folding bicycle and definitely played a significant role in uh he he has in the growth and

development of Brmp Brmpton as a leading brand in engineering and design. So what

would you like to ask Will? I would ask Will a question I've never got a straight answer from anyone in in his sector which is how important is it to

manufacture the product in in the UK in its country of origin or or is it more important to be competitive and consistent to the brand

by having it manufactured elsewhere?

Yeah. And and do you know where they manufacture it? Do they always

manufacture it? Do they always manufacture in the UK still?

I I don't know. I'll bet you he he won't like the question because I suspect no one's making bikes in the UK anymore exclusively right?

But I I understand why. I mean, Burberry moved most of their stuff overseas for that reason. Even Louis Vuitton, you

that reason. Even Louis Vuitton, you know, who were made in France is part of their DNA just couldn't make enough good shoes in France and had to find other places. So, it's an interesting, you

places. So, it's an interesting, you know, do you diminish your quality by maintaining your your your source of origin? That's a really I'd really be

origin? That's a really I'd really be interested what his point of view is, especially when it's the UK and a notorious, you know, [ __ ] house economy and manufacturing sector now compared to how it once was.

Yeah, great question. Well, I I will ask that Mark.

As always, Mark, uh you never fail to educate, you never fail to enlighten, you never fail to uh to make me laugh.

So, uh I think um you know, I need to thank you for everything you've done.

You know, Mini MBA, coming on the on the show itself. Um, I think in terms of

show itself. Um, I think in terms of what I I always learn from you, well, the principles of great marketing stay the same, whether it's B2B or or BTOC.

We we've just talked about that. Um,

that that whole key of being consistent with your brand. Uh, we haven't really touched on distinctive brand assets, but we all know how important that is. Uh,

and I suppose definitely don't use price slashing to to cut through the the the marketing quick wins. you know, but brand building is definitely a long game. Is there anything else you'd like

game. Is there anything else you'd like to add to our listeners that we haven't covered?

No, but I'd like to finish, Nick, if you don't mind. Fierra Ben, the famous

don't mind. Fierra Ben, the famous postmodern thinker, used to end his classes at the Sawbon by jumping out of a window, landing on a motorbike, and driving off into the distance. If if

you'll indulge me, given I'm in my spare room, what I'd like to do to end the podcast is climb into my bed uh and go to sleep. And then I'd like you to say

to sleep. And then I'd like you to say good night Mark and turn it off. Can we

do that?

Let's do that.

Right. Now, and you'll find out if I've got any pants on now. This is the exciting moment of the podcast. Right.

[laughter] [snorts] Oh, yeah. All right, Nick. I'm ready,

Oh, yeah. All right, Nick. I'm ready,

mate, when you are.

Okay. Well, there you have it, listeners. Uh, thanks for Mark today.

listeners. Uh, thanks for Mark today.

And, uh, that that well-rested sleep needs to come. So, uh, have a good sleep Mark.

Good night, Nick. Thanks for tucking me in, mate. Appreciate it.

in, mate. Appreciate it.

Night.

So much to unpack from this podcast. So,

here are my notes upon reflection of what you've just heard. The key learning I I thought was that Mark wasn't sat there in his underpants, which you will have seen if you watch the YouTube

episode. Now, joking aside, uh there was

episode. Now, joking aside, uh there was so much to learn from this podcast.

Firstly, as a marketeteer, don't obsess over advertising and promotion. Brand

building is the ultimate goal and so look to take hold of the other three Ps and especially price because as the saying goes, revenue is for vanity and profits for sanity. Profit is crucial

for your business to not only survive but thrive. So even if you can't

but thrive. So even if you can't influence the final price, make sure you're sat around the table to listen and contribute towards those dis discussions because Mark says the way

price is communicated is more important than the price itself.

Secondly, it's the misconception that with brand building it takes a long time and actually a good campaign can help in both the short term and the long term although the optimum is definitely to uh

to split the budget to look at both.

Therefore, brand trackers are a really important tool in the marketing toolbox to measure how well your marketing efforts are delivering over time. And it

was al also give you a lot of evidence to share with your peers who may ask about the ROI of your marketing campaigns.

Finally, marketers spend weeks or months, thousands of marketing dollars creating new adverts when they really don't need to. Data on effectiveness and longevity suggests many campaigns could

and probably should run for years. So

save time and money and run with your existing creative.

I hope you love this podcast as much as I did. Uh next up is Will Butler Adams.

I did. Uh next up is Will Butler Adams. He's talking about his journey on starting and growing Brmpton bicycles.

So stay tuned for that one. Thank you.