Why CAD vs GIS Is the Wrong Question: How Infrastructure Teams Use Both

to change. And in today's webinar, we won't be just talking about winners and losers, but trying to understand how organizations are using both to deliver better infrastructure projects and more

importantly, where the challenges still exist in the process.

To help discuss these challenges, I'd like to introduce who you'll be hearing from today. So, my name is Brad Ashley.

from today. So, my name is Brad Ashley.

I'm the industry manager for AEC, or architecture engineering and construction here at EZRI Canada. I

started my career actually working in the CAD space leading teams in surveying engineering and design and learning that the integration with GIS can lead to better outcomes not just for our team

but for our clients as well. Today I'll

be joined by three panelists. Brian

Waller of WSP, Christina Younglut from SEMA Plus, as well as Julie Culligan from Acon. And that a few minutes from

from Acon. And that a few minutes from now, I'll have each of them introduce themselves as well as the companies that they are working with.

So, as I mentioned earlier, this is a topic that's been coming up for for many years. And no matter what the project or

years. And no matter what the project or organization is, no one starts out thinking how are we going to make GIS and CAD work together, they they instead start thinking about what kind of

problem that they're trying to solve and how they're going to make it work. And

oftent times that challenge between CAD and GIS comes to light as a bit of a project problem.

One of my early introductions to this was a large construction project that we were working on in Calgary several years ago. Our engineering team at the time

ago. Our engineering team at the time was deep into design using CAD tools to support that project and all the various detailed pieces that needed to come together. But at that same time, we had

together. But at that same time, we had an entire team working on other information, things like existing above and below ground utilities, environmental constraints and

sensitivity areas, even things like community impact assessments. And all of that information lived in a GIS separate from the CAD team. While the design continued to move forward in the CAD

world, there was limited connectivity back to the GIS information that was being created and maintained in parallel. And so I probably don't need

parallel. And so I probably don't need to tell many of you what we saw in the end, but that story ends with having lots of surprises during construction.

Utilities that were not fully accounted for, property access issues that we were completely avoidable. as well. We had to

completely avoidable. as well. We had to revisit decisions that were made early on in the project to understand if they were still viable in the uh in the end.

Ultimately, when the project was even handed over to the owner, the questions started to come in on whether or not the truth was in the CAD system or the GIS and who held the warranty information

for any assets that were handed over.

Because of this disconnect between those two different teams and two different systems, we ended up doing several weeks worth of work that had to be done after the fact on the project and we lost

money on it. One of the reasons that we're often seeing this continue to be the case is that there's so much kind of misinformation or information out there around how CAD and GIS can work

together. Some of them are grounded in

together. Some of them are grounded in reality, but lots are are relatively what we'd call myths. And so I'm starting off here with a a poll that takes us into whether or not you've

heard any of these myths in your career and which ones you've heard uh the most.

So maybe you've heard that CAD and GIS do the same thing, maybe that you everything should live only in one system, that GIS is just a mapping tool,

or that CAD can actually handle everything we need. So, we'll take a few moments there to get the poll up and see

how everything's uh coming out.

So, lots of responses coming in right now. Looks like GIS is just a mapping

now. Looks like GIS is just a mapping tool is currently in the lead. And

that's interesting because anyone who's leveraged GIS knows that there's so much more than mapping. so many more capabilities and functionality that we

can do with uh with GIS in in 2026 uh than just just the the bare minimum.

All right, so thanks everyone for for putting in your answers. It does look like GIS is is just mapping uh was the

one that ended up uh eking out on front.

So to ensure that we have lots of time to get through the various questions that we've got for the panel and and uh be able to answer any questions that come in, I want to pass it over to our

first panelist. So as I mentioned off

first panelist. So as I mentioned off the top, I'm going to have each of the panelists present a few minutes on who they are, their organization, and the work that they're currently doing uh in

the industry using CAD and GIS. And then

we'll bring everyone back together and start those conversations and discussions.

So, with that, I'll pass the screen over to Brian Waller of WSP, and we'll let him uh let him speak on behalf of of WSP. Go ahead, Brian.

WSP. Go ahead, Brian.

Thanks, Brad. Can you hear me? Okay.

Yeah, I can hear you just fine.

Okay. Um, yeah, so my name is Brian Waller. I'm in the uh the Calgary office

Waller. I'm in the uh the Calgary office of WSP. 18 years with WSP and the the

of WSP. 18 years with WSP and the the predecessor company that was acquired by WSP about five or six years ago. Um I've

got 31 years in in the industry geospatial industry starting uh much like Brad in the the surveying industry.

My background's in physical geography.

So I've did GIS and remote sensing geommorphology as my undergrad. Um but

then ended up in land surveying starting in the field using CAD and then slowly bringing my GIS experience into that that CAD land surveying world. Uh my

current role at WSP is the uh the digital and innovation lead for our our national geospatial design and data intelligence team uh about 200 people or

less maybe across the country um in CAD GIS and solutions development and I'm also uh run a program called the national envirro digitization program

which is basically putting uh digital tools in the hands of our consultants for for their fieldwork data acquisition management analysis process and reporting um and connecting people to

the right tools. Um maybe we can with that Brad maybe you can show a video and then we'll do a couple slides talking about what WSP does.

Sounds good.

This astonishing world with its infinite possibilities calls to the world shapers, the impact makers, the pioneers and pathfinders,

the visioners.

Every challenge is an invitation for us to dream big, set sights high, and blaze the trails. Together, let's unlock

the trails. Together, let's unlock potential everywhere.

So that doesn't tell you a lot about what we do but um what are we? We're

we're engineers, scientists, advisers to the various different disciplines. Um we

we trying to move towards more of that advisor trusted com uh partner in with our clients and we work with them to create value. If we go to the Am I

create value. If we go to the Am I allowed to progress them, Brad, or do you have to?

Uh, let me try.

There you go. Okay. Um, so the big areas we work within are really the um transportation infrastructure, earth and environment property buildings and energy resource industry. So you can see

it's a pretty even mix relatively across those. Um, earth and environment being

those. Um, earth and environment being 30% and that's the sector that I sit in, but we work across them. Um and part of the goal of what we try to do is is work

across them. Next slide.

across them. Next slide.

Um you can see that our part of our thing is being full life cycle for the projects we work on. We try to be advising on what to do where and when and help plan it, design it, um manage

the construction, operation of it, um and then eventually help uh uh decommission and and reclaim those projects at the end of the day. Next

slide.

In Canada, we have about 12,000 Littlemore uh employees across 130 offices. That's a lot of offices. Um

offices. That's a lot of offices. Um

there's one dot missing on this. We've

just opened an office in Kalowit um which is our first uh Eastern Arctic office. So that's exciting. Uh next

office. So that's exciting. Uh next

slide.

Um we'll just go real through quick a couple of interesting projects here over the next little bit. These slides really represent what um can be done when you integrate your CAD GIS and all your

other disciplines into projects. So

working on multi-billion dollar project to um to revamp the uh center block at Parliament. Next slide.

Parliament. Next slide.

We've worked on the uh the um Lakrad dive mine for 25 30 years. Eventually

we'll help close it. Um next slide.

working on redeveloping the uh Union Station in Toronto and that goes everything from from remediation to new

construction and operation. Next slide.

And uh doing a lot of transportation work. This is a a really complex um

work. This is a a really complex um project in in Montreal to rebuild an interchange.

I think that might be the last one. Oh,

one more. The Portland lands project in Toronto. If anybody you from Toronto, I

Toronto. If anybody you from Toronto, I grew up just outside Toronto. The

Portlands was a place you couldn't actually go when I was a kid. Um, and

now it's uh it's actually a destination for people.

I think that might be the last one.

That's it. All right. Well, thank you, Brian. Uh, that's a great overview and

Brian. Uh, that's a great overview and and we'll be back with you here in a few moments on some of the panel discussion.

Uh, next I'll hand the screen over to Christina from SEMA Plus who will be walking us through a little bit of what they're up to.

All right. Thank you very much. Just

sharing my screen. Give me one second.

Do you see that? Okay.

We do.

Okay. Wonderful. So, thank you so much for having me here today. Um, I am a little different uh than some other people. I'm actually um I guess I'll

people. I'm actually um I guess I'll start with myself. So, my name is Christina Younglut. I am a BIM manager

Christina Younglut. I am a BIM manager with SEMA plus Canada. Uh I work in our buildings um um English team. So I

support teams across Canada. Um I have been working here for about two of two and a half years but I have been in the I have been in the industry for over 20 plus working years many more beyond

that. uh my experience and stuff has

that. uh my experience and stuff has actually brought me across multiple aspects of the industry from design services to supporting man building

product manufacturers uh contractors facilities management across the board.

So that's actually where all of my knowledge and experience has come from and I've accumulated all of that to support my role as BIM manager um at

SEMA plus. I am also a proud member of

SEMA plus. I am also a proud member of the Autodesk Expert Elite program and I will explain more about that in a moment. Um and I have been that for

moment. Um and I have been that for three years and it's a fantastic program which I will get into. Um my experience

with GIS and CAD is has never been a divide to me. There has never been a separation as somebody working in BIM

services. My role is in the um is the

services. My role is in the um is the projects from initialization to handoff.

So I don't really see the difference between you know uh the project managers interfacing with the client or talking with the design professional engineer leads or anything like that because I

need to be part of the entire process.

So my approach to um CAD and GIS is just a united um uh team, a collaborative team that is all working together and sharing the information

um throughout the entire process as needed. So a little bit about SEMA here.

needed. So a little bit about SEMA here.

I'll just kind of sorry should put that up. Uh so SEMA is a multidisciplinary

up. Uh so SEMA is a multidisciplinary engineering firm and we have over 40 offices across Canada and uh roughly around 3,600 employees. Uh we work in we

are a multi- sector multiddisciplinary design engineering firm. So we work in infrastructure rail water transportation, energy and buildings. Um

and we support municipalities and um clients on complex projects and supporting from early planning environmental assessments through detail design and deliver delivery delivery and

construction. Um as a part of our work

construction. Um as a part of our work in the wastewater infrastructure. So you

I'll just go that one. I'm just going to play a little video. There's no sound for anyone. Um it just adds some

for anyone. Um it just adds some ambiance to it. Um we were in we are involved in very large system level

projects that require uh coordination across multiple disciplines multiple um stakeholders

um across across um the board. So this

is designers, the engineers, the client, um environmental um individuals, sorry, uh throughout the entire system because

you know when you're building a wastewater treatment facility, you're not just building on a single piece of land that impacts the entire area around it and it's supporting that entire community. And a project of this size, a

community. And a project of this size, a facility of this size is not just one city. is actually multiple that connect

city. is actually multiple that connect together and supports a significant number of the population here in Ontario

alone. So um these projects generally go

alone. So um these projects generally go beyond a single site and can span across multiple areas and multiple uh facilities and locations. So it's

important for us to um understand how the infrastructure of these projects perform at such large scales.

uh we have a strong focus in digital delivery and innovation and we strive to uh help our teams work more efficiently and better um throughout the project

life cycle. So we never you know we're

life cycle. So we never you know we're always growing and expanding and adopting and changing with the new technology to ensure the proper information and sustainable designs are

being created for our clients um and for the future of of the projects that we're creating. We're not creating the

creating. We're not creating the projects for today. We're creating the projects for the future. So what are we going to do to help our future be successful? Uh and that is where the BIM

successful? Uh and that is where the BIM services comes in by helping uh aggregate all that information and helping teams work together and communicate uh clearer and cleaner

together so that we're sharing the same information. Being GIS or CAD, it

information. Being GIS or CAD, it doesn't matter in my eyes because the information is still needed for the success of the project. So reducing and taking away those silos um that will

help people be more successful and allow projects and systems like this to um to support our future because you know the future

they don't care about are budgets or anything of today or the struggles or things that we needed to do to get this out. all they care about is what they have in 50 years and 20 years

and making sure that it's still going to meet the needs of, you know, the people that they are trying to support. So

that's what we're trying to strive in projects like this with GE booth and it's a fantastic project. If you're

driving by it, I strongly suggest just taking a look at the mass size and complexity of this is outrageous. Um,

and then a little bit about the Autodesk Expert Elite program. If anybody hasn't heard about it, I I suggest that you go look it up. It is a program run by

Autodesk and it recognizes um specific individuals globally. There are less

individuals globally. There are less than 400 active members of the program at this time and they span from the AECO industry, the uh manufacturing industry,

media and entertainment, all of the software that Autodesk provides. We are

recognized for um our contributions to the community, mentorship, um support and promotion of Autodesk software and um you a support of communities. So that

is a big part of who I am as well as what I do at SEMA. And I'm grateful that I have a company like this that allows me to bring both of those worlds together because I take the knowledge

that I gain at working here and I help supported the greater good of our industry with that information. So, um,

I could get into a little bit more of that, but that's what the discussion later on today and just trying to go.

So, yeah, I really look forward to this conversation today. Thank you.

conversation today. Thank you.

Thank you, Christina. Uh it's

interesting your comment there where you know the the future people won't care uh that that you know your laptop froze or or you know closed down and you lost

some data and it it took an extra hour right um always interesting some of the projects that we get get involved in.

All right next I will hand it over to Julie Culligan of Acon and uh Julie let us know what you're up to.

Hello Julie.

Julie is having a mute issue.

Uh, let's see.

I think she's still in the backstage.

Brad, I'm not sure how to promote her into Christy or uh Connor. Hit somebody.

Thank you. That was the That was the issue there. I'm going You can hear me

issue there. I'm going You can hear me now, I'm assuming?

Yep. Yeah, we can hear you now.

Okay, perfect. Um I'm going to start with the video and then I'll go into a little introduction about myself. Um,

but let me share my screen and uh if you can't hear the audio audio just uh just show where we provide a construction digital twin for a project creating right

firsttime solutions value engineering and cost savings. The latest

construction and coordination programs are fully integrated throughout the project's life cycle, providing automation solutions for project teams and supporting construction execution,

all while saving time and increasing safety. Let's take a deeper looking into

safety. Let's take a deeper looking into the step-by-step workflow. AON's design

agreements require the engineers to design in 3D. Once this information is received, the integrated design delivery process ensures everything has the

correct position coordinates. Then it is published into our realworld GIS tools like EZRI ArcGIS. This is an easy to access online platform which allows the

user to view all data in 2D or 3D.

Geographical information systems or GIS is a system that creates, manages, analyzes, and maps all types of data.

This helps highlight and mitigate construction risk, improve productivity, and increase client satisfaction. The

files are then coordinated in civil 3D with existing ground conditions. This

allows us to analyze our construction earthwork quantities, existing utilities and groundwork conditions, including contaminated soils at preconstruction

and during construction at different points within the project and process.

Our AON survey team takes LAR scans of the entire project site. Liidar uses

light from a laser to detect the ranges and depths of objects, creating a file of millions of individual points called a point cloud. This will provide a true digital representation of the project

site at the time of the scan and allows the ID team to integrate the asbuilt conditions with the 3D BIM model in an Autodesk environment where you can view

an accurate elevation depth map which allows the team to check the accuracy of the construction against the BIM model and the proposed design in the real

world. The ID team then receives an

world. The ID team then receives an issued for construction design from the designers. This is then further

designers. This is then further developed by the ID team, increasing the level of detail from 300 to 450 by adding more elements to the BIM model

like rebar. A quantity schedule can then

like rebar. A quantity schedule can then be created to compare quantities and provide additional data for the on-site team. A federated model is now created

team. A federated model is now created combining architectural, structural, utilities and real world data from LiDAR and GIS teed to perform quantity and

cost evaluations. Progressive design

cost evaluations. Progressive design tracking is incorporated into our GIS systems which provides construction progress updates that are tracked against the design progress. Over the

past 50 years in construction, the design and coordination tools have exponentially grown from paper and drafting boards to creating a digital

twin on a laptop with 4D animations and cost tracking. AON's integrated digital

cost tracking. AON's integrated digital delivery is helping shape the future of construction one step at a time while putting our people and safety first. The

future is now.

All righty. I just going to need to share one more time my this here. Just give me one second.

this here. Just give me one second.

I knew it was going to do that. Sorry.

There we go.

See?

See if this works. It does the wrong screen again. Oh, it does. Well, you're

screen again. Oh, it does. Well, you're

going to have to see the next slide.

Um or I don't know how I to flip this, but that's okay. So, um my name is Julie Culligan. I'm the GIS manager um at Acon

Culligan. I'm the GIS manager um at Acon Digital Delivery. Um I have been on our

Digital Delivery. Um I have been on our digital delivery team just for uh under a year now, but I have been on our utility side as the GIS lead uh for

seven or eight years now. Um and been in the industry for about 15. Um so our digital delivery team um they focus on utilities um which is my background

civil urban transportation systems and industrial. We work across US, Canada um

industrial. We work across US, Canada um and internationally.

And our little cute design here is the ID digital twin. We separate these into six um pillars. Um so the design hub, our site twin, our work packs, insights,

geohub and build planner. And we

separate them into two sections, the digital design control and digital construction control. So um and they all

construction control. So um and they all integrate together uh which is really nice and we'll get into that a little bit later I'm sure about how those all

um come together. Um how we use GIS here at AON. Um anything tied to a location

at AON. Um anything tied to a location gets put into our system. So we kind of have three different uh sections and then modules within those sections. So

we use them for mapping and design content, coordination and planning and then field uh data capture and verification. Uh use cases are along the

verification. Uh use cases are along the bottom there. So I'm not going to read

bottom there. So I'm not going to read them all off but uh lots of survey mapping, RCD mapping that come like very frontend heavy um coordination and planning. I think you can put

planning. I think you can put environmental mapping under both of those. Um and then the field capture uh

those. Um and then the field capture uh and verification. We put all of our

and verification. We put all of our drone and LAR mapping in there. We do a lot of geo tagging of site photos and uh what we really like to promote is our field inspections. Um those things

field inspections. Um those things include actual assets and also daily site reports uh so we can ensure safety

progress um etc. We also leverage uh RJS um dashboards. This is just an example

um dashboards. This is just an example here. Uh you've seen it a little bit um

here. Uh you've seen it a little bit um in the video. Uh but that is um that is kind of a background of uh of what we do

here um at AON.

Perfect. And now that was my opportunity to not be able to find the mute button.

So uh we've we've all had our chance now. Thank you, Julie. Uh that was

now. Thank you, Julie. Uh that was great. I you know between all three of

great. I you know between all three of you seems like there's some great projects on the go. Uh lots of interesting activities and a real sense

that everyone's uh working in in CAD and GIS and and leveraging data back and forth. And it was interesting in our one

forth. And it was interesting in our one of our calls that this group had before uh we were chatting about whether or not BIM was considered part of this

conversation. And for anyone who's who's

conversation. And for anyone who's who's asking that question, uh Christina is our is our uh daily our our today host that's familiar with the BIM side of the

business. Uh and so we all agree that

business. Uh and so we all agree that that BIM is certainly part of the of the CAD space here. So,

all right. Right. Well, now that we've talked quite a bit about the sort of what we're up to, what all of us are doing, let's get into some of the questions and and try and answer uh how

we're we're making this work. So, the

first question that I wanted to ask and I am going to direct this at uh at Christina to start is how do CAD and GIS teams in your organization there at SEMA

plus how are they collaborating today?

uh you certainly mentioned the idea that you see them as as one holistic group um but it'd be interesting to see if you could maybe give us a little bit more clarity there on on how they're

collaborating.

Yeah. So um I like the way that you kind of brought in like the holistic approach because uh everybody is working on a team. You're collecting your data.

team. You're collecting your data.

You're putting everything together. So,

we worked in we work in a common or um a connected data environment that everybody aggregates all of their information to, which allows us to connect and have access to all of the

same information at the same time, taking down the restrictions of who owns what and who has the rights to what information because all of it is going to contribute to the full design of the

project. So, when we're working on

project. So, when we're working on projects like GU Boots, this is a good example. Here is my background image of

example. Here is my background image of it. Um, you know, there are the

it. Um, you know, there are the environmental impacts of this. We

actually connect right onto a lake. What

are the runoffs from it? Where where are the waterways that come into the system?

What do we impact from the the traffic control around the facility especially that it's been under construction for 10 years and has another 20 30 I don't

couldn't even imagine how many years and our impact to the area. we are expanding or they are expanding sorry the royal we they're expanding the the the system to

I think it's like the south of it and what are the environmental impacts of that um not just um that but also and if there's any cultural stuff which is not specifically GIS but just bringing all

of that information together to impact a project like this. So you know um there are still scenarios where certain information isn't passed to people but

we try and open that dialogue of like what is it that you need and then how can that how can we help you in in in that regard because you know GIS also

needs CAD to be able to say okay well you want to put your building here well let me tell you what that looks like and they integrated in the system and all that information comes together so what are they going to do to sit there and not share it with anybody?

we make sure that there's an organic approach to allow others to have access to that information that is going to

change and and and impact the design and and the future of any project. So, um

again it it is a it's a lot of work and it's a term I kind of like to use is like the three C's. It's the most important thing that I find in our AEC acco industry is communication,

coordination and collaboration. If you

do not have those, then you don't really have a functioning system. Everybody

needs to be speaking the same language.

I like to say, I only want to input the data once and I should never have to touch it again on any file on any team for anything. What's the client's name

for anything. What's the client's name once? And everybody else reads from

once? And everybody else reads from that. So, um, and Julie, I did like how

that. So, um, and Julie, I did like how part of your video was about the advancement and progression of technology in the industry. technology

is going to advance regardless if you adopt or not. So what are we going to do to support that growth? Are we going to,

you know, silo ourselves off into information deserts or are we going to come together as a collective environment and work towards those that

sustainable future that we're all eagerly and passionately trying to get.

So I hope that answers that question.

Yeah, I mean I I certainly remember days where the GIS team and the CAD team did keep data completely separate. Uh you

know your comment, what are we going to do? Not not share that data. Exactly

do? Not not share that data. Exactly

that. Uh you know, but but I'm an old guy so you know I I remember those times uh a lot more maybe uh in the past. I

guess Brian or or Julie, anything to add there that's completely different? Um

maybe anything on on kind of how your your teams are collaborating using technologies like uh you know any of the connectors or or technologies that sort of ensure that the data goes back and

forth.

Just I I'd like to add to what what Christina said because I think that the collaboration piece is where GIS really um excels because that's sort of always

been the purpose of GIS. It's always

been about bringing together a whole bunch of information, usually in disperate formats and temporal uh currencies and things like that, and

being able to make it um understandable and available to people. The other part of it is is the fact that it can reach into all kinds of different systems, CAD

systems, and other types of databases in a way that some tools can't, lots of tools can't. um and being able to have

tools can't. um and being able to have GIS as you know usually it has uh good interfaces that can be very quickly

understood by very non-GIS people. So it

is a really great platform for being able to integrate the information you're bringing across from all the different places. that dashboard that Julie

places. that dashboard that Julie showed, having worked on a project with AON on where we use those exact same tools are those are those are amazing tools to have and project managers who

don't know Autodesk, don't know Ezri can use those tools very easily with, you know, sometimes not even a training session on how to use them. sometimes a

one pager that shows here's your how you're going to get the information you need and and it's a really great tool for aggregating all that information across projects and especially since not

everybody needs all the information but when you do need it you need to be able to find it quickly if it's not in your specific domain so the piping person inside of a building may not need the

GIS but the time that he ask gets asked how does this connect to the things outside and to the real world you know into the exist existing uh situation when it comes to uh you know piping

outside the building that they're working on then they know that there's a platform there to be able to go and pull that information together.

Yeah. I'll just I'll just quickly add um with with respect to the question the one thing that we do really well and and I think every organization probably does some form of this but we have a a weekly

or bi-weekly meeting that we just show each other what we're up to. So we are we're in constant communication about what what we can do, what they can do.

Um and then and that's kind of how we collaborate. That's how we spread the

collaborate. That's how we spread the word. I know we're going to get into

word. I know we're going to get into challenges later, but um one of the biggest thing is in collaboration is making yourself known within the organization, right? So um clearly

organization, right? So um clearly defined roles between GIS and CAD but that integration uh we use uh specifically ACC to pass information back and forth and it works really well

because we can integrate you know in both directions. Um so just the

both directions. Um so just the visibility of of the two teams across the organization the the CAD teams have sometimes been our best um our best

spreader of the word of hey GIS exists let's use it uh which has been awesome.

Yeah. I mean I think what we're learning here and what's really interesting is you know we're talking about CAD and and GIS working together but we're also you know learning and and hearing about how

each of you are working together as well. you know, lots of these big

well. you know, lots of these big opportunities right now are taking, you know, customers or teams to to work together, whether it be WSP and and

Acon, whether it be WSP and SEMA plus, you know, working together on on some of those projects. You're not just working

those projects. You're not just working across technology lines, but also across company teams. So, um, yeah, great great uh discussion there.

Uh, this one I'll pass over to maybe Brian. Um, where have you seen most of

Brian. Um, where have you seen most of the value coming from when your teams are connecting the technologies or connecting the the design and the spatial information in in one

environment?

Yeah, I think that that not duplicating, siloing and splitting off information, not making it easier to find information when it's not yours. when you need

something for the the part of your project that you're not responsible for, somebody else has it. When it's not, you know, if it sits inside of a SharePoint,

that's a bit of an advancement to where you used to have to go and find it by calling people and asking people and going to people's desks, but you usually can't use the type of spatial

information we deal with from those platforms, the SharePoint platform or something. So having that common data

something. So having that common data environment that's pulling things together that's you know makes it easier to find information makes it more current. So instead of you know

current. So instead of you know quarterly review of design advancement and then everybody gets together and goes oh we have a bunch of clashes cuz you built your layown area where I was

planning to do my excavation next week.

um you know those sorts of things you can you can surface all those sorts of clashes as soon as they're designed instead of you know at your monthly project review or something like that.

So that's yeah, finding information that's not you don't even know exists that helps your your you do your job um reduces your cost, you know, reduces

your risk, reduces timeline um impacts, things like that. I think that's that's the big one for sure. Um, and you you have to have it because certainly on the size of projects like what Julie or or

Christina were showing and the ones we work on, you know, there's there's no way for you to know who owns information anymore. When you're in a project that's

anymore. When you're in a project that's a large transportation infrastructure project, there's no way for you to know who who knows the current state of a specific location. You have to be able

specific location. You have to be able to go to a common data environment and figure that out.

Yeah, that's a that's a great comments and and Christine, I'm going to pass it over to you to to kind of follow up here, but we're getting a couple questions in the in the Q&A around

challenges with data formats and and some of those working back and forths.

you know, you're you're specifically, you know, I know from the the CAD side and and the BIM side, you know, are there many challenges that you're you see there as far as data formats and

connecting the design data inside uh with with some of that spatial information.

So we can't lie that there is there isn't like in some capacity there's going to be an issue but you know the great thing about the environment that

we do live in with forma data management and you know any uh aggregated system that allows us to put information in one

place. Um it does make it easier to

place. Um it does make it easier to manipulate that information. So maybe

get maybe PowerBI or spec like a Dynamo script if you're within Revit and you need to extract information or some type of special script routine or something

that is needed and another soft whatever it is needed there is a way to translate and transfer the information around. Um

I'm kind of always in the boat of like there really is no no it's how much time how much effort and how much money is available to get there. So, I do appreciate when people have an issue

with like incompatible data or issues transferring information around, but um the process is it might just not be something that you're aware of at this

time, but don't stop. Keep looking. Um

unless we have specifics, we can't tell you an exact process for it. But that is the amazing thing about a connected data environment is that like Brian was

saying, all that information is now in one location. So maybe the process guy

one location. So maybe the process guy does not need to know any of the information about the about outside of the building until he needs to connect his pipes. and all of a sudden you find

his pipes. and all of a sudden you find out that your room is on the opposite end and all of your pipes are on like the north side and you're on the south side and but those could have been

avoided if that information was shared and those teams connected and collaborated. So um you know the most

collaborated. So um you know the most value from the connecting the design and the spatial is just a singular understanding about what we are all

trying to achieve and and that that's what I'm always trying to perpetuate to people. It's like you might be on a

people. It's like you might be on a different team but you're working on the same project. Do not shy away even if

same project. Do not shy away even if you're a sub to a prime to whatever it is. It is not about

is. It is not about it is about this goal. So, you know, use whatever tools you need, validate them.

Things are going to work and they're going to fail. Let them and move on and celebrate that because what do you get with that failure? More knowledge for

the future. So, Oh, I like that. Yeah.

the future. So, Oh, I like that. Yeah.

I'm I'm actually going to pass it across to Julie to because I mean, we're into the challenging part, but I'll I'll do a slight plug as I do that. Um, we do have

an Ezri Canada AEC community on LinkedIn. If you are someone who's

LinkedIn. If you are someone who's having challenges related to data, data transfers, and you want to have a community of people who probably can answer your questions, put a post on

there. Talk about what the challenge is.

there. Talk about what the challenge is.

Give us the specifics. You know, I'm trying to get from DXF to shape file.

I'm trying to get from shape file to something modern. Uh, you know, talk

something modern. Uh, you know, talk talk to us. Uh, put put that out there.

And it most likely there's someone in the community that's had that exact same challenge and is is happy to help. So,

uh, Julie, I'm passing it over to you to kind of continue us on this challenge, uh, challenge conversation. Maybe some

of the challenges that you faced when integrating some of those, uh, those types of of data together.

Yeah, I mean, I mentioned it a little bit earlier, spreading the word was the first challenge and is is often the the first challenge within an organization that's that's trying to leverage the two is making sure they know each other

exists and that we're here to help each other and work together. Um, I'd say some of those challenges are are more or organizational than they are uh

technical. Um, and then a big one that

technical. Um, and then a big one that comes up is risk, right? Like if if GIS is publishing something, are is it forformational purposes only is what we

hear a lot in meetings is you can look at the GIS but it's forformational purposes only. Don't use it for accurate

purposes only. Don't use it for accurate accuracy. You know what I mean? Things

accuracy. You know what I mean? Things

like that. So just um the conversation around liability and risk um comes a lot from from the CAD designers normally looking at it from the GIS side and then

from the GIS side a lot of the times we have things like uh the data management.

So are we just getting a bunch of CAD files that are not in any sort of organization unmanaged with you know different different layers. So, um, a lot of it is the human element of of

spreading the word, uh, who's at risk, who's liable for those information, for those pieces of information, and then just getting people confident with with both teams and how you're going to as an

organization accept those risks, those liabilities, and make sure that we're working together as as coordinated teams. Yeah, you picked up on something that again came in on the chat. Uh, you know,

one of the challenges a lot of people have is is just that human element, the silos that have been built up, you know, because of some of those myths that we we started off the the conversations

with, because of some of those uh longstanding kind of CAD versus GIS um spaces. So, I I know that that's a real

spaces. So, I I know that that's a real challenge and, you know, there's a lot of time spent kind of building those bridges, building the awareness and and uh value there. I guess Brian, any any

other different challenges there that uh that are diff, you know, different than what Julie or Christina have kind of highlighted as far as as bringing the the groups together?

No, I think I think they nailed it on the on on the head there. I think

there's there's not much else I could add to that, I don't think.

All right. Well, I'll pass you over the next question of what at what stage of the project life cycle does integration matter most? Uh so when we're thinking

matter most? Uh so when we're thinking about you know the the whole realm of of integration uh across the life cycle of a project you know is there a specific

area or or time that makes the most sense?

I mean I don't I don't know that there's a you can exclude the the inter interreation between the two even from the start. I think right from the start

the start. I think right from the start you're you probably have folks working in both environments um and not just CAD and GIS but other environments as well pulling information

together you know when you're even beginning to um look at where you might build the thing you know when you're working with a client to try and decide where should you even put the thing that

you're going to put you probably have some sense of what it is and that's probably in a CAD drawing somewhere even if it's just the planetric 2day 2D outl

layout of what that is. You know, you you and I both, Brad, worked in in oil field surveying at some point and you know, a well package still has a design long before anybody knows where it's

going to go on the landscape. So, and

that and that's the case for a lot of things, right? So, so I think the full

things, right? So, so I think the full life cycle obviously you know when you're into full-on construction where designs are actually changing because of um challenges that are happening in the

actual field where things are being put together. That's probably where the

together. That's probably where the collaboration has shown the most value I think at the end of the day because if you're talking about somebody didn't

order enough rebar or somebody wants to build a ramp into um into a excavation but somebody else needs to be building the foundation where that ramp cuts through at the same time. You know,

those are things that can cost millions of dollars if you don't resolve them ahead of time. um and they can put projects at risk for missing deadlines

that often for a company like um WSP Sema Plus or or AON can actually put your your fees at risk because you've missed some timeline which means now you're not going to get paid the amount

you thought you'd get paid because you didn't have your planning down. Um and

these sorts of collaborations really can solve those. So yeah, I think I think

solve those. So yeah, I think I think you'd be hardressed to find a place where the collaboration doesn't impact your project from start to to closure.

Yeah, I was just going to add to that.

Definitely we need to start early in the project life cycle. Um we're we're getting asked for things earlier and earlier. We're getting asked to set

earlier. We're getting asked to set things up before we have any designs or data just so people can map what they're thinking. Um we have teams now that use

thinking. Um we have teams now that use um experience builder just to plot their ideas on the map or like hey I know this area we got to be careful of this so

that the whole team has access to see uh what everybody else is thinking right we might leads might have something in their head and then their team members might not know the area as well or um

they just they don't know what to think of quite yet. So, it's it's good even for the leaders on the team to use it to distribute information uh to those um to the other people on their team just to

like, hey, this is what I'm thinking or hey, we're looking at segmenting it this way versus this way. Um and and then you can pile things on top, right? Oh, now

we have a conflict. Uh so, as early as possible, we get we get requests now before we even have data to publish. So,

it's it's really great. Um and it's the earlier the better. Yeah. The earlier

the better is is my little piece there.

Yeah.

Yeah. Kind of add to that like you are correct. We are getting asked for a

correct. We are getting asked for a higher level and degree of information and data earlier than previous because of technology because of these connected

data environments where the information is available it is making it or perceived that it would be easier to get this and you know uh I'll just speak on

like you know if you're using Revit there is a difference between a 30% design in AutoCAD and a 30% design in Revit. what is needed to get Revit to

Revit. what is needed to get Revit to the capacity to just show that is 60 plus because you need to it is not the same. So I use that mentality across

same. So I use that mentality across everything. You should have people

everything. You should have people included from the very beginning. Maybe

not at the design phase, but the information stage like Julia said, previous information about the site or similar projects, we experienced this

multiple times. We had if issues with

multiple times. We had if issues with this data that came into the project helping support the future projects with, you know, the lessons learned from

the past. And so you know who's going to

the past. And so you know who's going to be involved in the project that conversation should happen at the beginning. Do you need your process

beginning. Do you need your process team? They should be at least

team? They should be at least notified that something's going to happen and that they need to be aware of, you know, that this project and the size because they might have valuable

input that will help you um support your proposal.

All that information is valuable. So,

um, you know, when I when I bring things together, I'm bringing them together from like the very first conversation with the client about what you want to do to when we hand it off to the facilities management team. They we

should be part of the entire conversation, but everybody.

Yeah, it's interesting. I think there was a comment or a question in the in the uh Q&A where someone was asking about you know which program which which uh program is the best to be to be

leveraging whether it's Autodesk or or Ezri. Um and you know to me when I'm

Ezri. Um and you know to me when I'm looking at this question of the stage of the project life cycle I think there's different stages where where CAD is the lead and there's different stages where

GIS is the lead. Um and and they both have their time. They both have their place to be, you know, obviously integrated, but there's times where, you know, you're not going to use a GIS to

do the detailed design of of designing a bridge. Uh but likewise, you're you

bridge. Uh but likewise, you're you know, you're not going to do the analysis of how many people are going to move across that bridge in any given day. Uh you know, from from city to city

day. Uh you know, from from city to city or or from place to place using a a CAD.

So um you know each system has its integration has its integration point and uh yeah it's a interesting question.

We are getting down to time here. Uh

it's amazing how quickly an hour can go by uh when you're having good conversation with with uh with great people. So this is this is our last

people. So this is this is our last question to the panel and it it goes to how does this connect to longerterm goals with asset management or digital

twins and digital twins is one of those things that we're hearing more and more about. Um but how does the integration

about. Um but how does the integration of the two technologies or the two teams how does that really play a role here in in some of those pieces? Anybody want to

uh to take that as the the first question or the first answer? Go ahead,

Brian.

Your hand up first. I love this question because I have a great story of going to talk to a pipeline operator about how

they wanted to get all the data that was collected during the the planning, environmental permitting and construction stages of a pipeline project and how to get that into their

operational GIS.

And we had done all the work on the advancement of that project to operations and we this is a while ago.

So we physically shipped them and I hate to say this but a box full of hard drives and paper cuz they wanted the field notes to begin with and this was before anybody used Arcpad and we went

to see them in their offices. They took

us into a meeting room and we went to talk to them about, you know, how you can take the GIS data, move it right into your operational GIS plan and connect it to all your your CAD systems

that have your your layouts and things like that and your your pipeline management uh systems. And we said, "What did you do with all the the data

that we sent you when when we went construction was done?" And the guy literally pointed to the boxes in the corner of this room we were in and it was all the hard drives and all the

paper files and everything that we had sent them and they were still there and nobody had ever even attempted to integrate them. And this is where we

integrate them. And this is where we really really add value is because our projects are these companies like ourselves. We work across all the

ourselves. We work across all the different stages of those projects right from planning them to remediating them after they're done their life cycle. And

all of that often stops at construction and the handover from construction to operations depending on the industry can really be a hard wall and things don't

get handed over. And this is where we really have the opportunity to break that wall and get it right through the whole life cycle. the digital twin, the operational digital twin, not just the

the construction digital twin that that Julie was showing in her videos, but being able to then hand all that off so that when you know 2, 5, 10 years down the road, somebody needs to do something

on that site, there's actually a perfect model of what has gone on through the entire life cycle and be able to he can count the rebar from what was installed 25 years ago, the volume of concrete,

all those sorts of things. and that but that's often a hard stop and this is where we could really really make a change to be able to go right into the the full life cycle digital twin.

Yeah, I know. Great point. Um Julie

Christina quick quick points here to add.

Yeah, my only Sorry, you go ahead.

No, no, go on. I always have things to say.

I was going to say just quickly like it's it's a foundation for that long-term asset management, right? So

you take the CAD, you throw it into GIS.

We see it every single day more and more uh in the news, even legislation coming in for for governments and and and all those fun things, but it's it it really

is the future. Um so the longer term goal as as all of us as citizens, you know, um it's the foundation. it lays

the foundation and then you can do things like site reporting and and all those things within Ezri um to to to build these to build these digital twins

and and asset management programs. But I'll just pin it there, Christina.

And I really like that and I I've got a few things for that, but the first one is helping people actually understand what a digital twin is. You ask anybody, every client is going to have a different understanding of what that

expectation is and what their need is.

So, us as the facilitators of that, remember that it is not one definitive answer and that you're also going to have to be organic. We have an idea and an understanding of what digital twin

is, but what is the requirement to the client and what are they working with?

And then back to like the asset management and and bringing everything all together. Julie, you are one of my

all together. Julie, you are one of my favorite things is is telling people is to build that foundation. If you do not have that, it doesn't matter what tool, what technology you bring in, you're not going to be able to do anything because

you haven't built a foundation for it.

Every software presentation you have ever seen is built to show you exactly all of the benefits and features of that tool. And when you get it, you don't

tool. And when you get it, you don't have that in place. It takes work, it takes effort, it takes time, and it's not always going to work the way that you expect it to work. But you have to

stick to it. You've got to grow it because the purpose is is that collaborative connected um interconnected environment that we're

all trying to create because we're not important.

I I know people don't like hearing that, but you know, Brian, how long was between when you handed over those drawings and you shipped them all and you walk into the office and they're still sitting there and and we the

people behind it, they don't matter. And

maybe they didn't do anything with that information, but one day somebody is going to look at that. We've all gotten a PDF scan of asbuilts from 1980 that we

all have to work with. So what are we going to do today to help facilitate the success of the future? You build that foundation. You you you try, you fail,

foundation. You you you try, you fail, you explore the new opportunities and don't shy away from, you know, what is needed to meet that deliverable. and you

know not make sure you're not falling for that old guard mentality. This is the way we've always done it. Progress waits for

no one and are you going to be part of it or you going to be left behind?

That is an amazing pass over to our final poll question uh which is what's preventing your team from doing more with CAD and GIS integration and some of those questions one some of those

comments that that uh Brian Julie and Christina have talked about here today uh whether it's um you know data ownership and governance challenges

whether it's the different uh system knowledge and experience the lack of standards or workflows or the organizational silence ilos some of those old guard type silos that have

been uh have been in place. Those are

are challenges that we're all faced with. I'm not seeing the second poll.

with. I'm not seeing the second poll.

It is up there. I can see it.

Oh, okay. I'm not seeing it. So,

pretty closely matched between the last for between BC, C, and D.

All right, that makes sense. Um, thank

you. Thank you everyone. Thank you all uh for for taking part. Um, you know, what we learned, I think, today is is we could have this conversation for for several hours. Uh, and hopefully we'll

several hours. Uh, and hopefully we'll we'll get that chance at some future time. I did just want to quickly plug

time. I did just want to quickly plug the fact that we do have this new uh CAD training tools for for being able to bring CAD data into RGis. So, if any of

the things that that the panel has talked about here today is is maybe newer to you and you need some support, uh there is a new training program. And

then if you need anything after the fact, I know I have a ton of questions and answers that we didn't get to uh that I'll I'll be working on over the next couple days, but if you do need to

reach out, uh here's my email address.

Feel free to reach out anytime, and I'm happy to uh to try and connect you with the right people. And whether those are are these people on this call today, uh whether that's people inside of Ezre

Canada or others, uh we're here to be a community of people that can hopefully come together and ultimately make better infrastructure, make better designs,

make better construction. Uh and and you know, that's what we're all here for.

So, thank you, the three of you. Uh I know this is a you know piece of your day that you gave up to all of us and we'll look forward to connecting with

everybody again next