Why Climate Change Isn’t the End of the World with Dr. Hannah Ritchie - Factually! - 254

hello and welcome to factually I'm Adam

Conover thank you so much for joining me

on the show again you know the climate

situation is very bad in order to stop a

laundry list of dire consequences we

need to keep the rise in temperature to

no more than 1.5 degrees C higher than

pre-industrial times and currently we're

on track for warming by almost 2.7 Dees

by 2100 like I said that is bad and

given this situation given the stunning

inaction we have seen for decades you

could be forgiven for writing it all off

and finding a nice hole to bury yourself

in as things get worse until you die

there's an attitude a lot of people have

right now that basically says the world

is ending and there's nothing we can do

about it so let's all give up but guess

what that is not true the world is not

ending it is going to exist tomorrow

whether it's better or worse and you are

going to have to live in it and

personally I'm too much of a fan of my

life and of planet Earth itself to give

up I don't think it's an environmental

position to say oh we're [ __ ] there's

nothing we can do because there is

always something we can do the problem

is figuring out what that is and to

answer that question we need to

understand clearly where we are how we

got here and just what is actually

possible it's not about optimism and

it's not about pessimism it's about

understanding the reality of the world

we live in and what we can actually do

about it and you know what the best cure

for despair is to grab a shovel and

Pitch the [ __ ] in and our guest today is

going to help us do that she is Deep In

The Weeds on all of the data and she has

written a deeply data informed book that

we can use as a baseline to help us

attack the challenges we face in

creating a sustainable future but before

we get into it I just want to remind you

that if you want to support this show

you can do so on patreon head to

patreon.com adamc Conover five bucks a

month get you every episode of this

podcast ad free we got a bunch of other

great Community features as well and if

you want to come see me I'm the road if

you like standup comedy head to Adam

con.net coming up soon I'm heading to La

Hoya California San Jose California

Indianapolis a lot of other dates as

well head to adamc con.net for tickets

and tour dates and now my guest today is

Dr Hannah Richie she's a data scientist

who works as a lead researcher and

Deputy editor of the indispensable

website our world in data a researcher

in global development at Oxford and

she's the author of the new book not the

end of the world how we can be the first

generation to build a sustainable planet

I know you're going to love this

conversation please welcome Dr Hannah

Richie Hannah thank you so much for

being on the show no thanks very much

for having me uh looking forward to the

conversation yeah so you have a new book

out called not the end of the world uh

it's we're at a time where so many

people talk about the world that we live

in as though it's about to end oh who

knows if there'll even be another

presidential election oh who knows if a

retirement oh the world's not even going

to be around that long we have this

fatalism about almost everything uh

which is a I think a very odd Viewpoint

to have um it's a very interesting thing

about our time that so many people feel

that way uh but it really seems Seems to

stem first of all from the climate

crisis that we've you know I was brought

up knowing you know watching uh kids

cartoons uh about how uh climate change

is coming and we're ruining the planet

and we have to do something and then for

the last you know 30 plus years of my

life I've watched very little be done

and so I understand why people would say

okay well that means we're screwed

because I was told about this crisis as

a kid and we're still not doing as much

as we should be and therefore you know

we're going to be a member of the last

generation you hear people say I you

have a new book out called not the end

of the world uh which takes the opposite

Viewpoint in its title uh I love that

tell me about it why do you uh have that

view that it's not the end of the world

yeah I mean the title is called not the

end of the world and I think it's

matters how you see it I mean the the

book tackles seven big environmental

problems like I think climate change is

the big one that we think of but we we

Face a range of other big environmental

problems as well and I think the title

is not you know oh it's not the end of

the world this is not a big deal no it's

a definitive these are massive problems

but we're going to make sure that this

is not the end of the world because

there are solvable problems I mean I

think if we even if we just focus on the

issue of climate change I think you know

coming from an environmental background

working in this area for years and you

know also speaking to other climate

scientists on this area it feels like

we've done a very fast 180 from you know

not that long ago you know the the

discussion around this was you know ah

is it actually happening or humans

actually causing it we seem to have done

like a 180 towards oh it's too late and

now there's nothing we can do right and

I think and I think um you know I think

we're kind of suffering from this kind

of whiplash of you know what happened in

the last five to 10 years that we've

done a complete 180 from almost semi

denial to it's too late and there's

nothing we can do so you know what I try

to do in the book is lay out yes these

are you know massive and Urgent problems

and if we don't get our act together the

consequences will be really really

catastrophic but there is something we

can do about it and and although we

aren't making progress as fast as we

would want and we're not on track for

where we need to be we are actually

making progress and we can massively

accelerate that if we make the right

decisions now uh do you think the view

that it's too late there's nothing we

can do about it is that you know another

form of climate denialism you say we've

made a 180 from oh we're not doing it at

all to uh it's too late is that just the

new form of climate change denialism I

mean I think I mean I think maybe some

people try to push that message because

they they think that it's it's helpful

for the kind of climate denial message I

mean I think for some people that's not

their motivation I think they genuinely

just feel you know paralyzed and

helpless in the the massive problem so I

don't think it comes from the same place

I think the actions or the outcomes are

very similar right both extremes is not

a problem or it's too late to do

anything about it both lead to the

outcome of inaction right they both lead

us to you know what on one side you

don't take action because it's not a

problem to deal with in the first place

at The Other Extreme you don't take

action because it's pointless and if

we're screwed then what's the point of

doing anything anyway I think the

outcomes of these two extremes can be

the same even if the intent behind them

is not yeah so you say we are making

progress what are examples of that uh I

let's let's try to frontload the pocket

episode with some good news how about

that like like what what is a reason for

an optimistic Viewpoint so I think if

you look at the trajectory we're

currently on on climate change it's not

where we need to be like we're on track

for between 2 and a half to 3 degrees of

warming now that's way above our 1.5

degrees or two degrees

Target but if you were looking at where

we were talking about we were headed a

decade ago you know it was 3 and a half

to four degrees so there like a degree

lower than trajectory we thought we were

on a decade ago now it's where we are is

not acceptable but if we can make that

progress in the decade why can we not

make more progress to pull 2 and a half

degrees down to two degrees so there is

a bit of a good news story there I mean

I think the most dramatic and positive

change for me has been that if you look

a decade ago I was really pessimistic

about where we were because if you

looked at any of the solutions we need

to tackle climate change I mean

fundamentally is we need to move away

from fossil fuels to low carbon energy

energ the problem a decade ago is that

the forms of low carbon energy we had

were way more expensive than fossil

fuels so no one was going to deploy this

at scale because it was way way too

expensive uh over the last 10 years or

so you know the price of Solar has

fallen by 90% the price of winds has

fallen by 70% the price of batteries and

electric vehicles has fallen by about

90% which means that the the low carbon

energy sources we need are now cheaper

than fossil fuels so you don't no longer

have this you know this tradeoff of you

know should we sacrifice the economy to

tackle climate change because no they're

they're now aligned it's actually just

in our shortterm economic interest as

well to go for the low carbon option and

I think for me that's been the most

dramatic change and the most dramatic

progress we've made now it's really

about building the stuff right we've

pulled the prices down now it's about

building the stuff out as quickly as we

can I what I think is interesting about

the answer and you hear that a lot from

uh uh you know folks who are really

following what's happening with the

climate that the price of renewable or

non-fossil fuel energy has gone down so

much that's hugely good news what I

think is interesting about that is it it

really is relying on you know the the

market on capitalism right the price is

low and therefore the good thing is

going to happen uh I guess what I'm

curious about is what is our ability to

do things that the market does not

demand you know for instance if I look

at Transportation here in the US let let

me just give you a p pessimistic case or

or a pessimistic example um you know a

huge amount of our emissions come from

Transportation um and a huge of that is

because of you know single occupancy

Passenger cars people driving two and

four in these giant pieces of metal um

and you know if we had for instance uh

you know massively expanded public

transportation in the United States uh

High-Speed Rail uh passenger rail uh you

know um uh Subways Etc even just

increased buses we could massively

reduce emissions but instead we're

putting all of our change into electric

vehicles which are a marginal

Improvement we're changing the engine of

the car right uh and we're we're pushing

the emissions to the power plant but

that'll that'll be an improvement

however even that has stalled uh in the

last year because uh a the government

has not built a massive series of uh

electric vehicle charges everywhere um

but B you know the car industry is kind

of like ah sure looks like consumers

love the Giant Gas guzzling SUVs that's

what they prefer to buy

and who are we to tell them to buy

something different people want to buy

giant people don't even want small

electric cars when they're buying

electric cars they're buying [ __ ]

huge ones that like take massively more

energy to move around massively more

energy to build Etc and so it it you

know reducing the price and and uh

hoping all right if we just make the

slope go in the right direction all the

water will run the right way and we'll

be moving in the right direction uh

that's great but it also see there we

have to have an ability to do things

that are that are counter to what is

cheap and available right and and do we

have the ability to do that I know

that's a big question to to land on you

early in the podcast but it's it's what

you made me think of no it's no it's and

I I largely agree with you I think

there's a couple of points there I think

I disagree that an electric car is just

like a marginal Improvement on a a

petrol or diesel one I mean even a big

electric car if you look at I mean

what's what there's always a debate of

is an electric car actually better on

carbon than a petrol or diesel I think

what true there is that the

manufacturing of the car emits more

carbon right because it takes more

energy to build the battery than you

would have in a petrol or diesel car but

once you start driving it the you you

pay off the carbon debt very quickly so

in the UK for example it pays off within

two years for the average driver and

then from then on uh the carbon

emissions of the car are much lower so

you're talking about like a two up to

two for reduction and as and that's

great but I do just want to toss in that

almost everyone know in the United

States buys a new car every 3 years um

so if you're paying it back in two years

or at least they're on a lease where

they renew it every 3 years so there

there's that still still that consumer

Behavior problem but keep please keep

going I I think on that but I think the

I I'm fre years seems very very short um

I mean I think most people in the UK at

least buy secondhand cars I mean the key

point is that the if they're buying a

new car their their car they're selling

will go to someone else that will be

might be replacing a petrol or diesel

car so I think the system level it will

be better if you look at the emissions

of an electric car you know you're

talking about around a two reduction in

emissions and actually that will get

better over time right countries are

decarbonizing the electricity grid so

that you know by hopefully by 2035 for

example actually the running emissions

of your electric car might be zero

because the US has decarbonized its

electricity grid but I take your point

that I think you know just leaving this

for the markets to run you know won't

get us there I think what's also really

key is the time scale on which this is

needed I think I think the economics of

the energy transition are now just so

good that you know we would just do this

anyway but we might do this over 60 or

70 years and we don't have 60 or 70

years we need to do this in a much

faster time frame which means you do

need to combine you know take the

advantages of of the free market

economics but also impose policy on top

of that I I think even if you're looking

at the really dramatic declines in the

prices of solar for example over the

last 10 or 15 years they were initially

pushed by policy right some countries

very early on you know set up R&D set up

you know um schemes to do this at a very

high cost and that has been like the

first you know push that that that we

needed in order to get these emissions

out so you think you do need this

combination of of of policy to to to put

you know accelerate these time scales

and you can also take advantage of the

free market economics of it as well I I

really appreciate you pushing back on my

rant about cars with the data that you

have and that was what I was hoping you

would do uh because you know I think you

sort of F I found a little bit of my own

built-in pessimism and I and I loved the

way that you spoke to it uh do you often

get a lot of push back when you are

spreading these messages is there a way

in which you know the people that you're

talking to myself included

sometimes seem like we almost want to be

pessimistic about this topic like we

have a maybe a built-in cynicism about

it a little bit I think what I sometimes

find is that um for every solution we

come up with there's a yes but there's

always a counter of like why that

solution won't work or why that solution

is not good and I think that's very

healthy like I think if we want to find

good Solutions we need to be highly

critical of them right we need to work

out what is a good solution what's

effective what's not effective so we're

putting our priorities and money and

investment in the right places so I

think we really need this this kind of

critical lens to these Solutions I think

what I think for me of what's really

critical in this energy transition and

and tackling climate change is that I

think we're always hunting for the

absolute perfect solution right we're

looking for the solution that has no

land juice no minerals emits zero carbon

you know there's zero negative impacts

whatsoever and I think the reality is

those like those Solutions just don't

exist um what we're looking for and we

need to do this quickly we need to move

away from fossil fuels quickly so what

we're looking for are solutions that are

orders of magnitude better than fossil

fuels and we're having them we have them

and we're developing them and we need to

work on the downsides of those and make

sure we're not creating more damage by

the solutions that we're we're bringing

in I think if we are to wait for the

absolute perfect solution to come along

we'll just maintain our the states qu

right we'll just keep burning fossil

fuels and we won't be willing to move to

anything else I think we need to get a

bit of the balance there where we

acknowledge the down siiz to some of

these other Technologies or or other

Alternatives but we try to make the most

of them and we go for this transition

anyway I think that's a really good

point and it's something I think about a

lot is uh when we are trying to change

the world for the better not letting the

perfect be the enemy of the good but

while at the same time maintaining a

little bit of skepticism and criticality

you know because there are also folks

who will sell a solution as being better

than it is when we could be asking for a

little bit more and that's why look I'm

a transportation wonk I care about that

a lot and in my view if we're rethinking

especially the US's transportation

system if we only change the engines

that are in the vehicles that's a missed

opportunity because there's a much

bigger win to be had there's a better

Society to be built and we shouldn't

expect we shouldn't accept hey there's a

lot of people who want to sell us a

bunch of fancy new cars you know um and

if we do more we will have an even

better outcome um but at the same time

I'm not one of those people who's like

ah it's expens you know it's cost a lot

of carbon to build the batteries so [ __ ]

it right like I don't think there's

there's a medium to be found there right

I don't think everyone should go out and

buy a brand new electric car every three

years I think that's excessive but I do

think hey if you can get a used electric

car and you know you've driven your

previous car into the ground and it's

time to up like go ahead Etc right

there's there is that uh there is that

Medium um

I'm very curious though you talk about

how we need to find new forms of energy

that are many or orders of magnitude

better than fossil fuels there are some

who would say well what if instead of uh

finding a great new for form of energy

what if we cut back what if we just

didn't waste so much what if we didn't

use so much what if we didn't insist on

you know uh so much growth Etc this is

sort of the the degrowth uh movement

there's a lot of folks who have that

sort of perspective what if rather than

more we had less and I'm curious uh what

you think about that point of view I

mean I think I think there is some room

for that I think where I'm skeptical is

I think trying to convince people to do

that is very very difficult and I you

know I think we we would we will

struggle with that type of message I

mean to come back to the policy Point

earlier of course there are things that

you could do to like put a cap on what

we would consider very excessive

consumption right if if if massive SUVs

or a problem okay tax really big SUVs um

if if really frequent flying is is is a

challenge then then then set attacks on

really frequent flying I think I think

you need to be quite careful with those

policies that you don't get lots of push

back you may get pushback if you were to

put High tax on you know the first

flight that someone takes in a given

year you might be able to to do it at

much higher levels of consumption you

know someone's fifth Flight of the year

you know you start to put high taxes on

I'm a I'm a stand up comedian I fly I

take maybe 40 flights a year that was

that last year I I easily am on the

highest level of frein flyer uh loyalty

bonuses um because it's what I do for a

living and you know what I think I would

be okay being taxed on that because I'm

doing it to make money that's how I make

a living and it's something like if if

I'm using the system that much uh I

would be happy if I knew that you know

some amount of money that I was spending

was going towards you know ameliorating

the the the climate Harms of the flying

but you're right I cannot just say hey

what if I cut back in flying a little

bit because it's literally how I make a

living um and I think a lot of folks are

in the same situation it's very

difficult to ask people hey what if you

just cut back what if we all just cut

back and have smaller lives where we're

less prosperous having less fun enjoying

life less that's just sort of not a

great uh pitch to people uh for for how

to solve a problem yeah I don't think

it's a a great pitch and I think if

that's going to be our message I don't

think we'll get very far very quickly

I mean I'm not against reductions and in

what we might call you know excess

consumption I think there are potential

ways to do that I think I think what

would be difficult is like how do you

set how do we agree on what a level of

what excessive is right what excessive

is to you is not the same as what

excesses excessive is to me I think

there is another key part of this which

is that if we want to reduce energy

consumption a really good way to do that

is just to decarbonize I think we can

talk about Behavior change and that's

fine but I think we're also

underestimating how much we can reduce

energy use just by getting rid of fossil

fuels and bi electrifying our Energy

Systems so if you look at you know if

you blow up like a diagram of the US

Energy System today from like the fossil

fuels that are burned and where that

actually goes towards providing people

what we call Energy Services so that's

like uh heating your home or lighting

your home or you know the wheels turning

in your car

the majority of that energy is wasted

along the way and that's because when

you burn fossil fuels most of it goes to

waste heat it doesn't actually go

towards you know actually giving you the

power that you need right which means

that if you were to take fossil fuels

out of the system you would get rid of a

lot of the energy use without taking

anything away from the Energy Services

or the final consumption so your

behaviors could stay exactly the same if

you wanted to but you would need much

much less energy in the system and that

just comes from getting rid of fossil

fuels and then electrifying stuff like

transport for example so if you take

your your your gasoline car um for every

dollar of gasoline you put in it only 20

cents actually goes towards turning the

wheels and moving you the other 80 cents

is just wasted whereas an electric car

is almost the opposite so every dollar

of electricity you put in only 20 cents

is wasted and around 80 goes towards

turning the wheels so actually to drive

the same distance an electric car of the

same size you might need three to four

times less energy so your behavior

hasn't changed but you've actually man

massively reduced your energy

consumption so I mean we also

underestimate our ability to reduce

energy use just by doing the

decarbonization bit and then you can

talk about individual Behavior change as

a as a way to also supplement that okay

you're really smacking down my argument

again about uh electric cars being a

marginal Improvement the it's still

marginal but it's a very large margin I

I absolutely grant you that um and I I

agree it's really important to look at

where the actual waste is if we're

talking about flying you know rather

than you know me flying around to to

make a living we could look at for

instance private jets or that kind of

thing we could look at where the largest

uh waste is maybe you know certain

celebrities don't need to take a

15-minute flight from one airport to

another they could take a goddamn cap

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want to talk about some of the other

crises that you mention I just want to

ask you one more question on this first

um about the price going down because

there's also a phenomenon when things

get more efficient and the price goes

down we do tend to use more of them I

think about you know uh LED lights right

which are massively more efficient than

every other form of light ever uh made

uh but the result is that people are

using and businesses especially are

using a lot more LED lights because hey

guess what we can now have 10 times the

lights for the same cost or whatever so

why not leave them running all the time

because they're just LEDs uh that sort

of effect uh you know is that at all an

issue in you know hey the price of

moving the price of heating your home

goes down the price of lighting goes

down the price of all these things go

down does that just mean we'll use more

of them not less I think there's two

angles to this I think one angle is

looking at a large part of the world

where a big constraint is just they

cannot afford energy right people that

don't have much heating or lighting or

air con and actually just a big you know

everyday struggle for them is like how

do I get access to energy and for those

people you know a reduction Energy

prices is a massive benefit right they

might get energy for the first time they

might get you know vital Energy Services

that we have enjoyed for a long time so

I think for them energy low energy

prices is just a benefit and actually we

should be supportive of the fact that

their energy use might increase because

it will Mass a great Point that's a

great point Thank you and then I think I

think when we're talking about for

example people in the US or the UK like

richer countries I think this effect

that you describe is is what we call the

jevans Paradox um whereas the price of

something Falls or as efficiency

improves you use more of it now there

are a range of studies trying to you

know look at how big this you know we

call it the rebound effect how big the

rebound is and most tend to find that

the there is some rebound right so you

you do undo some of the improvements

that you get in efficiency for example

but they rarely rebound more than 100%

right so they might rebound 50% so

rather than getting you know the full

100% of the efficiency gains because you

use more you might only get 50% so it's

not as good as you might initially

expect just from the numbers but it's

often not so much that you use more

energy than you did before so LEDs LEDs

is a good example where people after

getting LEDs you did just use more

lights or you left them on or you might

have you know installed more in your

home but actually energy used for

lighting in the US has still gone down

so that the rebound wasn't 100% but we

did undo some of those gains because we

used more yeah well I and I was thinking

about reading studies about light

pollution that like light pollution has

if you uh uh if you're an astronomer or

someone who cares about bats like you

might not be happy about LEDs because

we're using more but the I'm glad to

hear that the uh the energy use has gone

down I love knowing the name of that the

jervin Paradox I hadn't heard that

before oh jevans yeah jeans Paradox uh

that's really cool um uh this is great I

love that I keep standing up these

Arguments for you and you keep knocking

them down so ay uh you're my favorite

kind of guest you say that climate

change is only one of many types of

environmental uh problem that we have

facing us what are some of the others I

mean think another big one is is air

pollution where um I mean globally

estimates there are a range of estimates

of how many people die prematurely from

air pollution every year but they're all

in the

millions and the the World Health

Organization for example estimates that

around 7 million premature deaths every

year from air pollution um which is a

massive deal um and there's two two

problems of air pollution there one is

um what we call indoor air pollution and

that's people typically on on much lower

incomes where actually the only sources

of energy they have have or like wood or

charcoal and they burn these in their

their home for for heating or cooking

fuels and then they inhale the smoke and

that's really really bad for human

health so they you know have millions of

deaths from that and then we have

millions of deaths from outdoor air

pollution so that's you know stuff from

our cars uh power plants for example

industry and again millions of people

die there prematurely every year from

that source of pollution so for the for

meat like that if you were to quantify

you know deaths from environmental

problems today like and air pollution

would be very much top of the list and

it's something we we we kind of have in

the back of our mind but don't really

think about yeah I mean it's completely

insane that when we look at the toll of

our Energy System it's one that we don't

often keep in mind because it's sort of

like an invisible uh death toll like

again you know Transportation causing

emissions even if you just look at

deaths from our transportation system we

think of car crashes uh people being hit

by buses or whatever we don't think

about the number of people who are dying

of respiratory illnesses that they got

because they live 800 feet from a

freeway as many people do here in Los

Angeles where I live I mean there's like

some Federal Regulation that says you're

not supposed to build a home within X

number of feet of a freeway and in Los

Angeles something like I don't know a

huge percentage like 40% of homes are in

violation of this because we have

freeways everywhere um there's just so

much air pollution and so people are

dying left and right of respiratory

diseases but that doesn't hit the news

right it doesn't say Hey you know uh

5-year-old child with asthma killed or

or you know uh person dies at 65 when

they would have died at 90 because of

air pollution uh in the same way that a

car crash does and yet those deaths are

caused by uh by the same thing yeah

exactly and I think I mean this is

another what we call a an externality of

of burning fossil fuels and and that

works in the same way as climate you

know the CO2 emissions and the damages

from climate change are like an

externality a kind of a cost to society

uh a social cost and environmental cost

that isn't factored into the price of

fossil fuels when you burn them and it's

the same for air pollution it's exactly

the same thing this is a kind of hidden

externality that we just don't really

think about I mean I think the I think

again like I like to highlight that

these problems are solvable problems

they're tractable problems I mean if you

were to look across a range of

especially High income countries we have

actually made progress on reducing air

pollution over the last few decades you

know the Us Clean Air Act has been

really successful in reducing emissions

of these gases the same in the UK we've

seen a really rapid decline um there's

still a you know unacceptable number of

people dying from this but but we can

make progress uh when we put the right

policies in place and we we make these

transitions I guess the key challenge

there is that most people dying from air

pollution today live kind of in

middle-income countries that have

industrialized very very quickly but

they've done that by burning fuels

especially very close to to City centers

so you know Delhi for example Beijing

was one you know if you were to go to

Beijing a decade or so ago really really

heavily polluted over the last you know

decade it's made amazing progress in

reducing air pollution and added you

know years onto the lives of its

citizens so i' like to highlight that

these are you know massive problems but

they are also tractable ones and they

are ones that we can make progress on uh

and what are some of the other

environmental challenges I I love

hearing this I love hearing a problem

and then a solution right after it

I mean I think a big one is is our food

systems I think people massively

underestimate the environmental impacts

of Our Food Systems I mean I think

there's almost no environmental problem

where food isn't either a big player or

you know completely dominates the

impacts I mean it contributes around

between a quarter and a third of

greenhouse gas emissions for climate

change wow you know is the leading

driver of deforestation it's the leading

driver of biodiversity loss it's the the

biggest user of fresh water I mean I

think when we think about fresh water

you know we think about you know taking

a shower or brushing your teeth it's

farming is is the biggest user of water

is the leading driver of water pollution

you know so there's a really long list

of environmental problems where food and

and what we eat and how we produce it

really sits at the center of that yeah

and so how do we solve this because

there are I mean look some people will

some people are watching this or

listening to this going vegan we should

all be vegan right and what a wonderful

world that would be uh and I've eaten

vegan for long periods for many times in

my life and uh yet I do not believe that

we are going to solve this problem by

convincing every single person to go

vegan one by one um in the in the you

know way that a religious protier might

that folks who are doing that are are

doing the Lord's work good on you but I

don't think we're going to solve the

problem that way um and I also think

that you know eating organic eating

local a small scale farm is very nice

for folks who can afford it but you know

we need a system a food system that can

feed you know what seven billion people

at this point 8 billion we're on our way

to eight excuse me thank you I always

forget how many billions because when I

was a kid let me just say one of the one

of the [ __ ] weirdest things in my

entire life is I remember being in high

school and being told there are six

billion people on Earth and then I

remember the day like 10 years later it

was like Hey now it's seven and I was

like how there's a billion more people

than there were when I was just like you

know be when I was like watching DVDs

and you know like taking the bus home

from school like how

did what a massive change and yet

everything looks the same to me when I'm

walking down the street it's bizarre um

and now we're now we have eight so uh we

we've added a quarter as many people or

a third as many people has already

existed when when I was a kid in the

last couple decades we got to feed all

of them so you know how the hell can we

have a food system that feeds these

people people food that they want to eat

without destroying the environment so I

think there's I think there's two big uh

Solutions or things we need to do here I

think the very F the first one is we

just we need to produce food very very

efficiently and by that we need High

crop yields now if you to go back to you

know the 1960s or the 1970s you know the

big crisis at that point and and what

people were talking about was the world

running out of food right they saw this

really rapid um increase in in the

global po population and basically the

conclusion was there's no way that we

will be able to feed everyone and then

you know there was the the population

bomb was the book that came out in 1968

by by Paul AR Erick and that predicted

you know just we're just going to have

so many millions of of people dying from

famine and just wouldn't be able to feed

everyone and that hasn't come true and

that hasn't come true because we had

what we call the Green Revolution where

we just see crop Ys across the world

just Skyrocket you know you're getting

doubling tripling quadruple of crop

yields which means that despite having

you know billions more people the amount

of food we produce per person has still

gone up you know we've we've seen a

masses of increase I think going forward

that's also really key what happens if

you increase crop yields is you

obviously get more food but the key

point is you you grow on less land which

means you need to cut down less forests

you need to you know go into less wild

habitats you can you can use much less

land for farming so that's number one

and then number two is just we just need

to see massive Global dietary change um

the biggest impact by far of Our Food

Systems is is is meat and dairy

consumption and we do need to find a way

of reducing that but I I completely

agree with you that I think the the

message of we just all need to go vegan

tomorrow is just like not going to work

yeah um and actually so how do we I'm

fascinated to hear you say that then

because I I agree um I agree with both

points right and so how do we square

that Circle how do we red and by by the

way in the last couple years there's

been a huge amount of interest in meat

replacement Foods there was like a brief

fad for them in the United States for a

couple years I was buying impossible

burgers and Beyond Burgers uh and now I

never want to eat one of those things

for as long as I live like I I ate so

many impossible burgers that I can like

picture the taste like and it repulses

me at this point um and you know God

willing they come up with a different

conversion that that tastes a little

different and is a little bit more of an

actual replacement but you know

unfortunately that industry turned out

to not uh have the results that it

promised investors and the public so uh

yeah what do we do to reduce meat

consumption if all those things uh we

sort of are agreed might not be the

answer I mean I think the I mean I think

I should say that I think I think food

is way harder to tackle than energy I

think on energy I think people for the

most part they just want you know cheap

energy coming out of the socket right

and if you can provide that for them

they don't really care where it comes

from yeah um for food people really care

about what they eat and it's like such a

strong part of the identity and and

their freedom right try to tell someone

what to eat and they will immediately

push back which is why I think this is a

much harder problem to tackle yeah I

mean I think the I mean I think the

keying there is um trying to sell it to

someone as a All or nothing like you

either eat meat or you don't eat meat is

not going to work right I think we need

to find a way of of red ring meat

consumption or giving people options to

reduce meat consumption and starting

there and then they might progress

towards you know a more and more

plant-based diet over time but I think

you're not going to get that overnight I

mean I think for me I think we will need

to rely on on on solutions that that

produce almost complete mimics of meat

that we're currently eating I guess I'm

probably pretty pessimistic that people

just accept you know we'll just eat

beans and lentil and that'll be fine I

think for most people they basically

want a substitute for meat

which means we need to produce meat

without the animal and there are

Innovations coming through on this the

the problem is that they are currently

too expensive and we haven't scaled them

yet I've read uh I've read accounts of

of the current state of lab grown meat

where they're like sort of making like a

lattice of of uh animal cells like very

painstakingly in a lab and like one on

top of the other and like okay we've

made the perfect artificial steak and it

only costs $100,000 a pound or whatever

uh it it's like encouraging work but

it's not really close to market yet is

that right yeah I mean I think the the

costs have are falling pretty rapidly

still um I mean I think yeah $100,000

would have been you know the price you

know maybe a decade or so ago but

they've Fallen quite fast since then and

I actually think on cost they might be

competitive you know in the next five or

so years really um I think the

scalability will be the problem it's

like how you then take that you know

really fin your created process and

scale that up you know to produce

hundreds of millions of tons of meat I

think that will be the big problem

rather than the economics of it yeah and

we also have the problem with the food

system of people's health I mean as you

say uh since you know the population

bomb was written in the last 50 years

there's been this enormous explosion of

food production which is great sort of

demographically right if you're looking

at okay we produced enough food for all

of these billion people um but if you

look at at least you know the the

dietary health of people in the United

States it is poor um and you have to lay

some of that at the feet of our food

system it's not people need to make

better choices it's people need better

choices in the supermarket the food that

is being rammed down people's throats is

not what it should be uh because of um I

I would say the pressures of capitalism

on these food producers to uh make food

more cheaply and Etc um and so so you

know we have this explosion in the

number of calories we're creating but

they're maybe not the calories that are

best for People's Health um and I could

imagine something similar happening if

if we have our meat substitute like we

we probably need you know some amount of

regulations in place or or somebody

thinking about like let's make sure we

shape this system so that we're not

producing you know we're feeding people

and we're also not feeding them [ __ ]

right yeah no I agree I think the I

think the quality of the meat substit or

you know whatever we replace it with

will be really important I think I think

nut and and to some extent that could be

another lever to to encourage people to

to move away from from particular

products like I think as I was saying I

think the the transition in food is a

much harder sale for people but what

people really care about is their health

so if we can produce products that are

one more environmentally friendly and

also better for People's Health that

could be another lever to encourage

people to make that transition I mean I

mean there are a range of studies

looking at you know the the health

benefits of moving to a more plant-based

diet it doesn't necessarily mean a

completely plant-based diet but a more

plant-based diet and they tend to result

in in slightly better health outcomes

for people and that might not be because

necessarily they're eating less meat but

I think often when people transition to

more plant-based diet they automatically

increase the diversity of foods that

they're eating right like they they

diversify different meals they eat a bit

more veg a bit more fruit a bit more of

various different foods so overall the

quality of their diet might improve and

diversify so I think I think that the

health lens of this is also really

really critical yeah and when I think

you can make the argument to people hey

you're if you eat less meat if you

diversify your diet you're going to be

healthier that is an appealing message

to people uh you know people want to

feel better about what they eat um

and I think if we sort of abandon the

the Monkish Devotion to I'm never never

again shall meet past my lips um

and that's fine for those who want to

make that moral commitment I think

that's a wonderful moral commitment to

make and I support it but if we can

focus on reducing diversifying for

everybody in general we can make huge

huge gains uh without requiring people

to without requiring people to give up

so much if they don't want to is it is

that sort of what it is yeah exactly I

think for a lot of people even that

first step seem would seem overwhelming

you know how on Earth do I eat a vegan

diet like what do I eat um and I

actually think as you gradually as

people are gradually exposed towards you

know eating a bit less meat or

substituting you know one meal you know

a day or or a day a week for a more

plant-based diet they then start to

learn stuff that they can eat and oh I

actually quite like this substitute or I

like this different meal that I've I've

made I then they become more comfortable

with it over time and might be able to

take it further I think the the

overwhelm initially of okay I suddenly

have to eat a completely vegan diet you

know really puts people off so I think

we need to to take people on baby steps

along the way and then they might end up

a vegan die at the end of the road but I

think most people will not jump

immediately to that yeah I mean my own

uh my own thing was like 10 years ago I

read a book by uh The cookbook arth

author Mark bitman called vegan before

six where he he had he's like here's my

diet plan I eat vegan before 6 p.m. and

then I have whatever I want for dinner

and uh I did that for a year or two and

then I just sort of learned oh here's a

bunch of vegan meals I can make myself

and so now I eat vegan quite often not

I'm not a permanent vegan but like you

know more often than not I'm like oh let

me try to have a vegan meal today um and

uh I think getting that sort of muscle

memory into people so that they know how

to do it enables them to make those

choices uh Etc now vegans in the

comments I know you're yelling everyone

should just go vegan it's fine like keep

doing what you're doing but we are

trying to uh get as many people under

the tent as possible and having a little

bit of allowance for where people are

currently at I think helps us do that

right yeah exactly I mean I've had this

dilemma myself so I'm I'm now a vegan

and I was in you know three years or so

ago and I've actually questioned over

the years am I more effective in this

role as a vegan or as someone that's not

a vegan but strongly encourages you know

meat reduction like I sometimes have

this kind of block of if I you know

people find out I'm a vegan you know

they don't take my message seriously or

they think I'm like way too extreme or

you know they can't visualize how they

would get from where they are to where I

am whereas if I was someone that you

know didn't eat meat that often maybe

didn't eat beef but ate some chicken or

fish they might find that more relatable

and therefore they might actually feel

like there was a a shorter Gap between

where they are and where I am I mean in

the end I I I just went vegan anyway but

I have questioned you know what's the

most effective you know communication

strategy there or or where to place

yourself to to reach a a bigger cohort

of people yeah it does it is funny that

if you're talking to a vegan and you're

feeling bad about yourself and then they

reveal I I eat fish sometimes and you're

like oh oh thank God oh okay all right

okay so so there's there's some hope for

me yet you know like it it's just having

having a little bit of flex like makes

people a little bit relieved um so I I

really love that we're making progress

in so many areas um I am curious though

are there any areas where we're putting

a lot of effort into reducing our carbon

emissions that are not so effective um

that you know are things that you know

hey we should direct our our efforts

elsewhere are there any current

initiatives that you are a skeptic about

I mean I think the I think on on climate

change specifically I mean I think the

the issue there is I think there's a lot

of people that are really well

intentioned they want to make a

difference they want to cut their carbon

footprint but they don't have good

information to base that on and they

often misplace their effort H and the

issue there is that they do the stuff

that has a really tiny impact or

sometimes a negative impact and then

they miss the really big stuff um so

when you look for example if you look at

surveys you know asking people you know

what's the best thing you can do for the

environment or the best thing you can do

to cut carbon footprint they mention

stuff like recycling or you know reusing

a plastic bag or turning off the lights

and and these are you know fine to do do

them but they're small in the magnitude

of things and actually they miss the

stuff like adopting a more plant-based

diet or or they even miss stuff like you

know switching to the to electric car so

they they're focusing on the really tiny

stuff and putting effort in there and

then missing the really big stuff and

what I think was really key is if we

were to have a hope of tackling this you

know we're past the stage of the little

stuff right we need to be focusing on

the big stuff so I think that's the

issue that people have is is also often

misplaced effort when there's actually a

list of you know maybe five big things

that really matter and then the rest is

more like a

around yeah well recycling is such a

contentious one because a lot of people

have an awareness that uh you know

recycling at least how it's practiced in

the US is uh in many ways a bit of a PR

attempt by the Plastics industry to you

know distract from the waste that they

caused hey if we put that little

triangle on the thing and say it's

recyclable um then people will think oh

it's not so bad to buy one and it'll

remove the guilt from them and then

we'll shift the burden of being

responsible onto the consumer now I

don't I believe all that is true I know

all that is true I've I've studied it

and done uh content on it myself uh but

that doesn't stop me from throwing all

that [ __ ] the blue bin blue bin because

hey why not as some of it's being

recycled whatever I don't stress out

about it too much but I think that that

breeds a cynicism in people that hey

these solutions that were being

presented are capitalist schemes by

people who are trying to get us to buy

more um and uh I I I don't know I I I

think that is what leads a lot of people

to say oh we're never going to solve

this problem unless we do something

about our economic system overall that

we change its structure um and you know

that we have a rapacious economic system

that is gobbling everything up that

always wants more demands endless growth

uh mines the planet for resources mines

our Labor uh to reduce it to its uh uh

lowest possible cost and is just you

know a fire that's consuming the planet

until it's all gone uh that's a very

apocalyptic view um but I'm curious uh

what you think about you know our our

economic system itself and how it

contributes to the problem or uh if we

can actually solve it under

capitalism I mean I think uh

that was a

lot I I like to give a lot at this point

in the conversation I'm sensing you're a

big fan of

capitalism no I think I think I think

those are all very valid points I mean I

think it's very fair to say that

capitalism has got us into this mess

yeah or at least has played a massive

role in getting us into this mess I

think you can still make the argument

that it can play some role in getting us

out of it now or at least another way

I'd frame it is that to me I'm not sure

we have a choice at this stage of trying

to utilize some of the positives of

capitalism which you know we discussed

earlier the kind of free market

economics of of uh energy costs and

technological change I think that's like

one benefit of this there are obviously

still massive downsides the question is

can you um Garner the the benefits of

the the system but also try to address

and pull down some of the downsides of

the system right um to me that seems

more realistic than deciding we're just

going to rip up the system and build a

new one especially on the time skills

that we're talking about here right

we're talking about tackling this you

know we need to really get moving on I

mean we should have got moving on this

20 years ago but now we really need to

get moving on this and we're talking

about you know decarbonizing or

electricity grids in the UK or the US in

5 to 10 years yeah um and and and I'm

I'm skeptical that we can tear down an

economic system and build a new one on

that time scale maybe if we're talking

about this over 70 years then we might

have a way of you know working on our

economic system first and then deciding

how we tackle our environmental problems

later so I think we in some sense are

stuck in the economic system that we're

in but that doesn't need to accept all

of the all of the aspects of it or just

accept it as the status quo I think

there are things we can do within that

system to to utilize the benefits and

and and try to push down some of the

major downsides of it I agree with you

entirely I I mean I'm a Critic of our

economic system uh and uh I I agree that

capitalism has gotten us into this mess

and I'm a person who uh is constantly

wanting to Envision something better um

however I don't think that uh we can we

have time to wait you know I don't think

we have time to say hey let's let's

figure out the economic system first and

then deal with climate change we can do

both things at once and you know we can

be realists about the world that we live

in and try to make you know the changes

that we need to make in that world under

the system that we're in as we also try

to Envision a better system and and uh

build it uh and you know I do take issue

when people say Ah that's you know as

people are probably going to say in the

comments of this video when we posted on

YouTube Ah capitalism did this we need

to uproot capitalism yes and we also

need to uh

we need to actually solve the problem

that we actually face in the limited

amount of time that we have um and uh it

is not an either or problem it is an and

and and and problem uh so thank you so

much for that yeah I agree and I think I

mean I think the I think the argument is

often well we're just going to take the

current system Energy System for example

that we're in and we're just subbing it

for a different one and and it's just

going to be just as bad and it's going

to be so as extractive as it was before

and again I think this comes a little

bit back to these Kind of Perfect

Solutions uh this hunt for Perfect

Solutions I mean I think we need to be

re realistic that you know this is not

about maintaining the status quo but

like this the the rebuilding our Energy

System is you know the biggest

ultimately one of the biggest challenges

we're going to face and we're just going

to see really dramatic changes here so I

don't think we should underestimate how

you know big this transformation is that

we're asking even in the food system

right we're trying to completely

transform our food system completely

transform our Energy System our industry

you know Transport Systems so these are

really kind of revolutionary changes I

think we should underplay that but on

the kind of extractive component I think

you know we're trying to move away from

a a fossil fuel system which is just

take take take right when you extract

fossil fuels you burn them they're done

right you need to extract more and you

do this every every year and and there

we're talking about you know extracting

15 billion tons of fossil fuels every

year Now we move to low carbon energy

for example we will also need to extract

minerals that's completely true and we

need to be conscious of the

environmental impact of that but what's

key is that we are talking about you

know orders of magnitude less minerals

you know we're talking about tens to

hundreds of millions of tons compared to

15 billion tons of fossil fuels every

single year I think the key point of

this transition as well is that you

don't need to extract this year after

year after year right you can start to

then recycle those minerals you know at

the end of a solar panel's life for a

win turbine and put that back into the

system so we will need a ramp up period

initially because we just need to build

lots of new stuff but we'll hopefully

reach a position where a lot of that can

be recycled and we get to more of a you

know circular economy approach that that

people discuss rather than just an

extractive take take take one yeah and

what I love about that is that you're

depicting us as taking a step towards

the world we want if you're someone

listening to or watching this podcast

who says capitalism is is extractive and

I that's something I hate about it well

you're describing an energy system that

is far less extractive right um that is

pulling less out of the earth

ultimately uh especially if we're able

to uh as you say you know reuse some of

the minerals that we extract and so that

is addressing part of the problem that

you are trying to address we're not

we're not like ripping out the whole

thing and replacing it in a day but we

are taking a step towards the world that

we want um which I think is really

important you know we talk about many

issues on this show whether we're

talking about um you know the criminal

justice system right some folks are

prison abolitionists police

abolitionists I'm like hey hey I don't

disagree with that uh W with the world

that you're envisioning let's take steps

in the meantime to you know build forms

of justice that are you know uh

alternatives to policing that so we can

show people how it works and reduce our

Reliance on a day-to-day basis rather

than just focusing on the far off

Horizon you know we also need to take

steps towards that world today under the

system that we live in and that's what

you're talking about doing um which is

uh why I love it so much um are are you

ever though like uh you know is there

ever a a pessimist bone in your body

about it like do you do you ever uh are

are there you know is there a world that

you know you you see us possibly heading

towards that you're trying to steer us

away from because sometimes I I do know

that the optimists point of view

especially for uh a climate activist it

can be a little bit of a strategic

choice right we need to be optimistic in

order to do these things and therefore

it makes sense to take a strategy of

optimism um and you know not be public

about the fear that's in the back of

your head of like oh what if we don't do

these things right um so you know are

you still powered by fear to some degree

or are you really like confident hey all

of these great things are are going to

happen if we all keep pulling oh no

definitely Ely like the fear is still

there like I still lose a lot of sleep

over climate change I guess I just try

to

balance that fear um and in some sense

anxiety with with also with the optimism

that there is something we can do about

it like I'm very clear always in my

messaging and also in the book that you

know the changes I describe in the book

are not inevitable in any way right I

don't know if we will do it I can't

force us to do it but they are possible

and I think there's a massive

opportunity there and I think I think

what we need at the moment is a positive

vision of the world we could live in

yeah um as almost as a North star I

think there's a lot of the environmental

messaging is almost built around damage

limitation and it's you know you know

the world will inevitably worse in the

future we just decide how bad it's going

to be um and I think actually we need a

bit more of a positive vision of no

actually the future can be better it it

will not inevitably better but there is

something better that we can work

towards how do we go from where we are

now to where we would want to be so

that's what I try to do with my

messaging is try to present you know a

bit more of a a positive vision of where

we're trying to go to but also make

clear that you know none of this

inevitable and you know if we stay on

our current path you know I'm very

scared about what the future will look

like because we're not on a good one but

I just have some level of optimism that

we can get our act together and bend

that curve closer to know the

temperature changes that we want and and

and are achievable so uh give me a

little bit of that positive version of

the or vision of the future right like

if like paint us a little bit of a

picture of you know here I am like I

said I I uh you know 30 years ago I was

watching those cartoons right uh Captain

Planet and whatnot today I'm in my 40s

I'm like hey we didn't do as much as as

I feel like we should have done um but

you know what is the world that I could

live in when I'm

if we uh do all the things that you say

are possible so if we you know get our

act together and Tackle this you know we

won't I don't think we'll limit you know

warming to 1.5° I think you know that's

you know a very PL loable goal but I

think you know we have kind of left it

too late to achieve that but I think the

key point there is you know 1.5 degrees

is not a cliff right like we are we need

to fight for temperature ranges above

that because with each incremental rise

in temperature increase risks so I think

2 degrees is still within our grasp if

we really get our act together so we

could limit warming to below 2° we will

see you know increased impacts there you

know but there are things that we can do

to limit those a lot of those impacts so

we're live in a world where hopefully

the majority of the world have access to

energy they have higher standards of

living than they do today um energy is

very cheap um we don't have these you

know massive energy price shocks you

know that we have in a fossil fuel

system because you know Putin invades uh

Ukraine um like we've seen in the last

few years so we have more stable and low

energy prices um people have access to

the Energy Services they need you know

we have much more livable cities that

aren't you know completely governed by

cars on the road um there are you know

better communities where we can interact

you know we have cycle Lanes public

transport you know people are walking

people can sit Outdoors they can D out

um we have clean air to breathe so

people aren't dying from air pollution

you know we don't kill you know more

than 70 billion animals every year for

food but we still have you know really

tasty nutritious diets we've got zero

deforestation because we've brought that

to an end um and we have you know these

amazing wild Landscapes coming back and

and wild animals coming back that is a

beautiful Vision um and you feel very

confident that that we can get there you

at least feel optimistic that we can get

there yeah these these goals are

completely achievable whether we do them

is is up to us and I mean as you know a

very large Collective level but but

they're there for us and I think the key

Point uh and what I try to communicate

in in my messaging is that this

transition is not a sacrifice I think

often this environmental stuff is posed

as a sacrifice it's you know oh we'll

just have to cut back or we'll just have

to sacrifice this in order to preserve

the future and fine that actually that

messaging is fine if that's the correct

you know notation the correct idea and

correct message there and maybe we

should just sacrifice but we actually

don't need to sacrifice because the

changes we're making our opportunities

so we have opportunities in the short

term and it also leads to good benefits

over the long term and I think we need

to reframe our our messaging here away

from you know sacrifice towards one of

of opportunity and abundance yeah that

it it's the class scarcity mentality

versus abundance mentality that uh we we

do not have to uh have worse lives we do

not have to live in a worse World in

order to prevent these outcomes actually

everything will be better we will all

have uh more more healthy more vibrant

more prosperous lives if we were to make

this transition I also I love the name

of your book so much not the end of the

world because um it is such a deep

philosophical thing that people think

the world is ending and like it's it's

not possible for it to end right like

you are unless you personally die right

you are going to wake up in a world that

exists and it is going to be better or

worse you know and you are going to have

to live in it and you have some amount

of control we all have some amount of

amount of control over what that world

is based on our actions today and no

matter how bad things are we have the

opportunity to do something that is

going to make the world that we're going

to wake up in tomorrow a little bit

better a little bit worse um and uh so

and when I think about it though way it

makes me realize this mentality that

like the world is ending is nothing but

a copout it's it's uh it's false and all

it does is absolve you fictionally of

that uh of that power it it takes power

away from you to say that about the

world yeah I think that's that extreme

again if you you know tell yourself that

the world is doomed and it's too late to

tackle these problems and it is the end

of the world then yeah your reaction to

that is well if it's over then you know

why why why should I take action anyway

you know won't make a difference um

maybe we should just you know enjoy the

remaining of Our Lives that we have left

because nothing we do now is going to

change things and that again I think

that's a cop out because that's just not

the reality and and that type of

approach and that you know uh messaging

is not going to get us to where we need

to be I think we need to reframe or disc

questions around this of yes these are

very serious problems for some people

these actually are existential problems

like people will die people are dying

from air pollution people are dying from

climate change and people will die from

climate change so for some people this

is really an existential threat but we

have the capacity to reduce those risks

to reduce those dangers and actually not

just you know have this damage

limitation uh Vision but also a better

vision of of actually improving the

world going forward rather than than

just trying to stop some of the

damage yeah and I mean once you start

thinking about that way it makes you

realize how big of an opportunity you

have because it sort of you go from

thinking ah what can I do to fight

climate change or to fight these

problems to thinking oh everything that

I do can be a solution you know like EV

like whether it's eating vegan or it's

you know getting the electric car or

it's doing policy work or whatever like

every single thing that you do is a move

in the right direction um if you choose

for it to be um and and it's can be

massively empowering to think about it

that way yeah exactly and I think the as

I was saying earlier I think I mean

these are you know massive transitions

that we're doing and they touch on

basically every sector um which means

that you know regardless of you know

what you're working in or where you're

working or or what you're doing you know

these issues are touching you and and

and and you can have a positive imp in

that like I think we we often think of

what you can do in environmentalism as

just you know how do I reduce my carbon

footprint and and and that's fine and

and I give recommendation of how people

can do that most effectively but I think

we should also be more ambitious about

that of you know my contribution is not

just going to be how do I limit my

footprint as much as possible I actually

want to offset that and more by the

positive impacts that I make whether

it's you know communicating to others

whether it's someone you know you know

working in politics working in

engineering or Finance or you know we

all play a role in trying to shift all

of these systems into a more sustainable

path and actually you know regardless of

what you do you're probably hting on

those every day yes and this is why I'm

so against people putting themselves in

a position of powerlessness and a lot of

times when I'm arguing with what I think

people are going to are going to write

in the comments it's me arguing with

that people say oh we can't do anything

because capitalism no you can do a hell

of a lot uh in and it's not only your

responsibility it's your opportunity to

do so and if you don't take it you are

you're you're putting yourself in a

position you're you're declaring that

you have no power when the opposite is

true um I so appreciate you coming on

today to dispel some of my lingering

pessimism and tell me why I'm wrong

about it I absolutely loved it uh the

name of the book is not the end of the

world people can of course get it at our

special Bookshop bod.com books um but

where can people find you online Hannah

and uh how can they get involved in this

fight yeah so I maybe one of the best

places is uh I work for a project called

our world in data and that's a website

and we have data and research on not

just climate change and environment but

what we frame is the world's largest

problem so you can go on there and look

at all the data to try to understand

what's going on in the world it's an

incredible resource it's it's really an

amazing site people should go check it

out our world in data yeah I have have a

a substack called sustainability by

numbers where I try to understand these

problems on on environment and climate

through numbers so not about like gut

feelings or you know intuitions or

anecdotes but actually looking at the

data on on electric vehicles for example

um because I was I was really going

based on gut feelings and anecdotes and

so you bringing numbers was an important

corrective to that I love that

sustainability and numbers yeah and I

think how people can can contribute to

this like in so many ways I think there

is the you know reducing your personal

carbon footprint bit which is important

but I think much more wider than that I

think the key one is just you know how

do you contribute you know from your

career for example a lot of people

especially younger people are deciding

you know what should I do with my life

if you're interested in this area there

are so many areas that you can get

involved and make a positive difference

whether that's in engineering whether

that's becoming an electricity to you

know massively enhance the Grid or

install heat pumps whether it's

spreading the message through ART I mean

there's so many ways that you can do

this in a much more positive way and

then obviously also really key to that

is trying to to influence politics and

and as we discussed markets I think you

also have an impact on the market by the

stuff that you buy when you're buying an

EV you're signaling you know we're done

with petrol and diesel cars yeah the

world is moving towards electric cars I

think we can also have a impact

politically and on our our Market

systems thank you so much for coming on

Hannah I can't thank you enough it's

been a wonderful conversation thanks

very much thank you well thank you once

again to Dr Hannah Richie for coming on

the show if you want to pick up a copy

of her book once again head to factually

pod.com books that's factually pod.com

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