Why Most Games Deserve to Die — And How Voodoo Finds the Ones That Don’t

You know, we have a team of publishing managers that actually manage a portfolio of studios like 10 or 15 studios. When they work with the studio

studios. When they work with the studio and and they will think, okay, so am I killing the game now or am I actually iterating on the game? But they have to think about what is the long-term vision

for the game cuz our belief is that you can very quickly see if a game is worth iterating or not. And basically, an extra iteration is a lost opportunity to

actually build a new game.

[Music] Mudu famously tests 2,000 prototypes a year. You work with 200 different

year. You work with 200 different studios. What separates a top performing

studios. What separates a top performing team from the rest? There's no magic recipe. You know,

rest? There's no magic recipe. You know,

all the success stories we have at Voodoo differ, but you know, we're starting to see some patterns actually that come out of these really good teams. So, the first thing is they're usually very lean. you know, it's very

small teams, which means that they're usually found led, you know, by like one or two founders that are very much involved in the product. They could be lead devs, lead designers, or actually both on the product. They're very

creative, you know, and they're not looking to build copycats. They're

really looking for innovation and build products that, you know, they're passionate about. They're very hungry.

passionate about. They're very hungry.

So they're real entrepreneurs uh that really want to make, you know, the next big game, the next big hits. And they

have very high standards both for themselves and for the people they hire.

Meaning that, you know, they will never ship a game that they're not happy about. You know, they're not happy with

about. You know, they're not happy with the way it feels, the way it plays, the way it looks. And that's also what they expect uh from the people they hire and from the publisher uh they work with,

which is, you know, the case uh with us.

And one thing is that we really try to avoid actually the teams that you know jump like publisher to publisher just looking for prototyping deals. We're

really looking for people that see us as partners uh and not you know as clients when actually work on on prototypes.

Really trying to build this next big game with us. Got it. So lean founder led creative hungry high standards of of the games they build and committed to a

single partner. Exactly. Where do you

single partner. Exactly. Where do you find studios like that? All around the world. Honestly, that's that that's

world. Honestly, that's that that's that's really the beauty of it. You

know, we've had great teams all around.

If you take our latest hit games like, you know, Block Jam was made a team in the US, Body Up, uh, Cup Heroes were built by F1 out of Ukraine. Uh, we also have teams in Turkey like Pub Train,

Rivy, and others. Uh, we're now expanding into China and Vietnam. So,

it's really all across the globe, but they all have something in common, which is they're great entrepreneurs. Uh, and

they're, you know, very passionate people that really want to build the next big hit for the market. Hands-on

builders, Eastern Europe, Asia. Exactly.

I mean, obviously we come from Western Europe initially. That's where the the

Europe initially. That's where the the market was initially. We've had a lot of success uh with, you know, French studios, uh, British studios, um, also in in the Nordics, uh, in Spain and

everything. But now we're really seeing

everything. But now we're really seeing a shift, uh, towards Eastern Europe has always been here obviously, uh, and is still, you know, a powerhouse. uh but

we're seeing Asia as an emerging force as well and really trying to enter this western market. You see all the forex

western market. You see all the forex and everything on the market but they're really getting into hybrid as well. Hab

was the first one and now all of the studios uh we kind of work with and um yeah that's it. That's it mostly. Found

fascinating. Uh one question just about the leanness. Yeah. How what what is

the leanness. Yeah. How what what is lean? It can range from like one to nine

lean? It can range from like one to nine people I would say in the team. Um so

you you still have you know a bunch of solo devs actually that work on their own uh at their place uh and that ship like you know a game every two months guys that are very very talented u you

know just last week uh we launched a game uh made by a guy out of Malddova that's alone and been working with us for like five years now so that's like the small teams and the big teams would be like eight or nine people the example

here is like 501 work with on on capiros for example uh they have two founders and then a bigger team mostly developers uh that help them work uh on more prototypes. But the founders are always

prototypes. But the founders are always involved on all the protos that actually are shipped. And I think that's the most

are shipped. And I think that's the most important part is actually this. We want

the people that actually work on the games to have skin in the game. Uh

because we want them to, you know, push the boundaries and really make the extra mile to make sure that the game is going to be the success. Yeah. So prove it with the software, not with the

presentation. Yeah. Exactly. Last time I

presentation. Yeah. Exactly. Last time I was here, we talked um Gabrielle talked about thousand prototypes you do a year.

This this year is 2,000. Yeah. So, how

do you go from 2,000 to what? You soft

launch about 40 games. Uh yeah, around this. Yeah. You're a hit factory, but

this. Yeah. You're a hit factory, but the percentage is really low. So, you

you're really great at killing games.

Yeah. Well, tell me about this process of 2,000 prototypes. Like, what's the first thing that you you look in a prototype? What's the next phase, the

prototype? What's the next phase, the following phase until it reaches to to one of those 40 games that are actually launched? Sure. I mean first I think we

launched? Sure. I mean first I think we need to we need to take a step back you know we we come from hab casual uh initially uh back in hab casual we used to we used to test you know five to

10,000 games per year uh so we kind of founded a model hab casual in in 2016 as Gab was saying last time um and back then quality was very secondary you know

the focus was on marketability and stickiness and you would really look at just the metrics you don't really care about the way the game looks the way it feels if people stay and Actually, it's

pretty cheap to get people in the game.

It kind of works. Now, we do test, you know, as you were saying, you know, 1.5K or 2,000 prototypes uh per year, but it really changed in the way, you know, we

we look at games and what we expect from these games. We really raised uh our

these games. We really raised uh our expectations uh for studios uh and the support we also bring. I'm I'm going to go into detail. So, cuz I'm I'm too stupid to understand high level. So,

let's say I'm uh me and my partner are small developers out of the uh the nor most northern part of of of Europe, and I come up with a game that is, let's

say, putting ice in into a glass so it doesn't spill. Something like that. A

doesn't spill. Something like that. A

new iteration on a sword game. How many

levels do I have to have for it to be a prototype?

First, I mean, we're always going to look at like one level to start with, you know, like. So, so we're going to play test it and see if it if it works like this. So, we won't require to have,

like this. So, we won't require to have, you know, too much art or anything in the game. It doesn't need to be refined.

the game. It doesn't need to be refined.

But, I would say the first version you need to play test it and make sure that actually it kind of works. But, this is not tested on the market. So, we're not pushing it to players. Uh, and we're not

really looking at, you know, stats because you might get a false negative on on engagement. uh because the game is too repetitive and there's not enough uh variety into the into the game itself.

When we have this uh we'll ask you to basically build, you know, 30 to 50 levels um to make sure that you know you introduce one or two mechanics that are different and see how people react to

these variations uh that they might be in the game play. And based on this, you know, we'll loop the levels afterwards potentially with some kind of, you know, adaptive difficulty that comes in to make sure we have more than 50 levels

and content uh before we actually test the game. Uh and then we actually test

the game. Uh and then we actually test the game uh in the US uh initially and you know we have a set of metrics uh we look at to see if the game uh has proper

potential or not. It's kind of a formula that we refine every six months based on the learnings we have which takes into account primarily engagement metrics. So

coated play time, day one retention, day three retention for the first test. Um

and while CPI is still a factor, it really carries you know less weight uh than it used to uh in this formula. So

uh you know there are number of like for metrics that are squared, some others square roots. that's the case for CPI

square roots. that's the case for CPI because it's still a factor but really less important uh than the rest and based on this test this will give us a first hint you know should we spend time

in this game or should we kill it uh from the get- go uh and if we decide to spend time in the game then we'll think about is there a vision on how we can build this game to create a lasting

experience for the players but also a way to actually monetize this game uh in the long run and if the answer is yes to you know this kind of quant positive question. Do we meet the gating process

question. Do we meet the gating process with the formula and everything and do we have a vision that could work on the game? Then we decide to actually invest

game? Then we decide to actually invest some time in the game with the studio and then we tried focusing really on retention in this early stage trying to lift day 7, day 14 and day 30 retention

uh still in the prototyping phase.

Fascinating. Okay, I'll just so summarize everything. I have the first

summarize everything. I have the first idea and the first test is more of a quality test. It's a gut feeling test.

quality test. It's a gut feeling test.

So I'm going to you just basically Yeah.

quality in a sense you play the game and you can see if there's enough quality here or not. Yeah, you play with the studio and honestly pretty often what we see from the top studios is that we will have the same assessment as so if that's

what I was saying you know it's founder led and the people are passionate about the products and they have high standards they will build a game they will test it and usually the best ones

will say okay it's it's not ready or or just it's not working uh I'll just go for something else. Yeah, because uh a good studio means that they have a good taste and they're not going to use you as a te as a tester. It's like, well, I

made a software. You tell me if it's good or not. Like, come on, guys. This

is your job. Like, you have to be the first one tell me that it's good. So,

then you move in like, yeah, we agree this is good. Um, let's put in some levels 30 to 50 and some kind of endgame, leaderboard, endless level, whatever it is, so that it just doesn't

stop. Then it goes testing into the US

stop. Then it goes testing into the US with engagement and CPI. So there's no monetization when it goes to a third first testing. There's no rorowass,

first testing. There's no rorowass, nothing, nothing. So here you're just

nothing, nothing. So here you're just basically looking at how people stick in the game and you because you invest into creative new ideas. Usually the CPIs are

probably pretty low because it's a it's a new take on something. So we hope it is.

We hope it is. Uh it's it's high by our uh by our standards, I would say, which are more from casual back in the days.

But I guess it's pretty low in the industry because we we're always looking for something that's that's fresh and new and obviously we're not going to compete, you know, face to face with like World Match or Candy Crush.

Exactly. And and also it's hard to know what the CPIs will be at scale. It's

kind of like it's just a starting point.

Maybe it's a starting point, but really our view nowadays is that CPI is is not the key to it. So if

you if you make a game that's you know has a huge retention uh for example and and and people stay for like one year two year three years in the game you will find a way to actually monetize these people uh and and I think

that's really the kind of shift we've done uh which is it used to be have casual and then you scale the game and moment the LTV uh is below the CPI you can you know you stop scaling the game.

Uh nowadays we really try to build you know LTVs that you know keep growing and keep progressing in the future allowing us to scale the games further and that's really what we're looking for is building these games that actually can

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sensortowwer.com. And then once once that is done, it moves into the first real go no-go gate. And at that point, you said you're going to discuss the vision and how the game will grow. Uh

what its potential, who is in those conversation? Is it your internal team?

conversation? Is it your internal team?

uh or is it the game team? Is it you together? Like how do you come up?

together? Like how do you come up?

Because now you're now you're getting from software to presentation phase.

Uh so it's it's still pretty early. Um

so you know after the first test um usually we have you know we have a team of publishing managers that actually manage a portfolio of studios like 10 or 15 studios uh each of them and these guys are responsible for taking these

decisions right when they work with the studio and and they will think okay so am I killing the game now or am I actually iterating on the game uh but they have to think about what is the long-term vision for the game with the

studio because myself and and you know all the managers in the team will come to actually challenge um the publishing manager and the studio on their decision to actually iterate and work further on

the game cuz our belief is that you can very quickly see if a game is worth iterating or not. Uh and

basically an extra iteration uh is a lost opportunity to actually build a new game and actually find a way to actually create a concept. And you know that's always the piece of advice we give to um

to studios is to not overerate uh because they will actually lose time and lose an opportunity to actually build an extra prototype or new game that actually could be the one that's big by

focusing on ones where honestly from from the get-go you see that there's no chance of actually getting there. That's

a that's a fascinating part because as I said like the key the key element of your business and overall in the business of hybrid casual is is killing a lot of ideas so that you

get to the best ones. Yeah. How like and it's clear to kill a game that doesn't have outstanding metrics off off the bat cuz you have so many versions. But can

you talk about a case where you've had a game that is very on the edge like how do you go through that decision? like it's it's good, it's not

decision? like it's it's good, it's not excellent, but you think it could get excellent. Do is there a if is there a

excellent. Do is there a if is there a cut where it's not excellent, it's out, or how do you make that decision to maybe push a little bit like people have some kind of a belief in the studio as

well as on the idea? I I think it really depends on the on the vision uh for the game as well and how the the publishing manager and the studio actually share that vision uh with us. these kind of

decisions we make you know as a group uh within voodoo but also discussing with the studio do we think there is something to be done uh so the vision is going to be built with with these guys because they're they own the game

initially and they own the vision and and how it should be I think when it's on the edge what we will think about is do we see an opportunity in the market because this is an opportunity so if

you're on the edge but competition on this type of game is huge there's very little chance you're going to make it right because you you have a game that's just not as good as the

others in the market metrics wise. Uh

and so you you always you're never going to build a leader uh against these kind of incumbents that are big on the market. Uh for example, we've had a

market. Uh for example, we've had a number of titles that are on the edge, you know, using the match 3D gameplay that you see in Match Factory, Triple Match, and these kind of things. We

never launched one to this date because we never really got the metrics where we feel, you know, we can compete against these guys and build a leader in the market. We're not here to be number five

market. We're not here to be number five and number six uh with very thin margins. We're here to actually build a

margins. We're here to actually build a leader. When on the other hand you

leader. When on the other hand you actually have a game where actually there might be an opportunity in the market because you don't have strong leaders uh in there then actually will

put the extra resources uh and we see that you know there might be something to be done here uh because it's worth actually taking a risk uh because we could create uh a subj or create a

market itself. You know, Blog Jam, for

market itself. You know, Blog Jam, for example, we launched like two years ago.

Zen Match was there with Tals, but the game wasn't so big. Yeah. Uh, but we knew there was an opportunity there because we knew the retention metrics were really good. We're seeing it on our side. The game was a bit on the edge,

side. The game was a bit on the edge, but we invested actually some time and resources in the game because we we felt that there could be an opportunity to get there. And usually we see one sign

get there. And usually we see one sign uh one metric uh that tells us that hey, you know, there's something to be done there. And for example in this game it

there. And for example in this game it was like day of retention was like double or triple anything we saw on any game we had uh in portfolio. So even if the game was not really performing on

the other metrics there was something special about it that actually was getting it work. So I think you really need to have something special both on the market opportunity and in the

metrics seeing something that stands out uh and really tells you that there is something that actually attracts players and keep them you know engaged and so we

should really double down on this. So to

summarize it if I'm a developer of this northern studio I would focus on three things. Number one is quality of the

things. Number one is quality of the software because that's the first step.

Yeah exactly. Number two is creativity.

Doing something that is different that is going to stand out in the market and that's going to lead to all positive metrics as well as in belief that stands that stand that that basically you know stands a chance to to succeed. Exactly.

And then the third part is having variety in the gameplay because you're not making games anymore that are for seven days for three days. Exactly. Uh

sorry for for three years and that means that you have to evolve like in puzzle games you have all these features coming in. like what are the features that are

in. like what are the features that are going to evolve this game play with 80 different iterations like can you really find evolvement into the core gameplay that we can build on top of. This is

really important actually that's a super important point because we we need to think about how do we keep people interested in the game uh in the future and that comes with you know as as you

were saying gameplay variety so in the in the core gameplay itself. Uh so

always think about you know what could be level 500. Uh and actually when we discuss the game idea with the with the studio that's the way it is. I mean in puzzle at least that's the way you think

about it. Um in midcore it's more around

about it. Um in midcore it's more around how do we create a social layer for the people to actually compete uh and you know come back to the game because they actually defend a reason to come back

which is usually the competitive layer uh that you will find on top of the game. So really not focusing only on the

game. So really not focusing only on the core gameplay. That's kind of a gimmick

core gameplay. That's kind of a gimmick uh that's going to be here for 7 days, but really how do you keep people engaged in puzzle through variety of content in midcore through this added social layer for extra competition

actually keep people in there and that needs to be part of the vision and how long does it take studio typically a good studio I know it's very different because it's a creative process one month one month one month for the for

the initial proto yeah uh I would say usually the good studios always have a backlog of ideas that you know have been uh greenlighted with uh discussed uh and that they already

started thinking about and designing while they're working uh on another game. So first week is a concept phase

game. So first week is a concept phase basically at end of the concept we have a a first version of it. Then three to four weeks we make it into a prototype.

Then a little bit more time if the prototypes go through to create more levels and more variety. Then we go to a test. Okay, now we've done a test. test

test. Okay, now we've done a test. test

comes back positive and you want to move forward from the the phase of engagement and CPI. Yeah. What where are we going

and CPI. Yeah. What where are we going now? So where do we go now? Uh first we

now? So where do we go now? Uh first we take the decision as we discussed you know do we iterate on the game or do we kill it? We kill like 90% of the time.

kill it? We kill like 90% of the time.

So 90% of the time you kill and you move to the next one. Mhm. Um, if we decide to actually iterate on the game, then actually the main focus at this stage is to work on the retention. So the game is

still not in soft launch. It's still

what we call the iteration phase. So

it's still under the radar on the developer account. Um, and we're still

developer account. Um, and we're still building the vision together. And really

here we're trying to focus on, as I was saying, day seven, day 14, and day 30 retention. These are going to be the

retention. These are going to be the things. no monetization, uh, no meta

things. no monetization, uh, no meta feature, at least no big meta feature.

It's going to be pretty basic stuff. Uh,

really trying to to nail these retention metrics, uh, with the game itself. This

is usually going to take two months on top of the first, you know, four to six weeks. Uh, two months where basically we

weeks. Uh, two months where basically we test builds every two or three weeks.

Um, really trying to get uh to these retention metrics. Uh and then the

retention metrics. Uh and then the publishing manager is going to spend more time on the game with the studio to help him on the product road map uh to get to these metrics. Okay, got it. So

iteration phase couple of months let's say now my studio exceeds that day 30 of 10% comes in at 11 finally after multiple different builds and sleepless

nights. What are we doing next? So once

nights. What are we doing next? So once

we're happy actually with you know the game and the metrics uh we then move to soft launch uh and that's when we exercise uh the license in the game based on the agreements we have with the

with the co we transfer the game over uh to the voodoo account and you know we focus for like the next 3 to six months uh on building a game that can become

scalable uh through short sprints and extensive you know AB testing and you mentioned day 30 of above 20% that makes sense. Uh you talked about rorowass both

sense. Uh you talked about rorowass both using inapp ads and inapp purchases. So

what is the typical rorowass like 100% is it 30 days or like what are you targeting for? So it it it changes quite

targeting for? So it it it changes quite a lot. I mean initially the rorowass is

a lot. I mean initially the rorowass is is pretty low also because the thing is as I was saying we don't put in interstitials at the beginning of the soft launch. that's that's actually new

soft launch. that's that's actually new from this year uh because we really want to test the game uh without you know any bias uh towards ads uh and any bias towards you know lower conversion

because we really want to build as I was saying for the future uh that's the that's the key in terms of rorowass historically the ruas we've always been

targeting is 150% uh day 120 uh so that's that's actually pretty short um so meaning we're looking for you know profitability uh within 4 month uh which is pretty

fast compared to the compared to the industry and most of the games that we have at scale if not all the games actually uh manage to actually meet uh these

requirements. We're kind of changing the

requirements. We're kind of changing the approach as we're moving towards more uh casual titles but still focusing on profitability right so we're building a model to actually have a prediction uh

after two years uh and the idea is to be between 200 and 300% uh ROS after two years but early on you know we still want to focus on day 120 Russ say it's more for games at scale we will think

about long-term profitability but for these games early our belief is that a good game when it's new and it's innovative and it's actually new to the market should be profitable within you

know a short uh time frame. Uh otherwise

when you scale it it's never going to work and and that's key to us and we really think that's that's uh that's important. Can you talk about the

important. Can you talk about the evolution of monetization because of course like hybrid casual meaning that you're now more and more focused on inapp purchases. Yeah. Uh what I'm

inapp purchases. Yeah. Uh what I'm especially curious to understand like correct me if I'm wrong but the long the better your retention is the more you show ads to a user the less valuable

those ads become. So you have to since you're targeting like these type of retention metrics, you really have to monetize through enough purchases. Web

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So that's that's a good question because the thing is historically voodoo and I would say h casual industry and and the guys that actually move from h casual to

hybrid and casual we rely heavily on ads you know and and we've been known for this uh particularly interstitials uh for revenue generation you know accounting for like it used to be like

99% of the revenue uh coming from ads in the h casual days um but the thing is that you know with the HTC policy.

Obviously, everyone had to change uh towards inapp purchase uh to increase, you know, this kind of user uh lifetime value and maintain the scalability of the game uh over time.

And while ads actually remain, you know, a valuable tool for monetizing the nonpaying users, uh as you're saying, we really need to focus on the inapp conversion uh early on. And that's why actually we don't put these

interstitials initially to not skew, you know, the conversion data uh in the games. Uh so initially we really tried

games. Uh so initially we really tried to work on you know in a purchase uh and what videos to try to see what the ROS could be and what the retention could be

uh on the game without uh these interstitials. And then before actually

interstitials. And then before actually move to soft launch, that's when we'll introduce uh the interstitials in the game, maybe segmenting them based on the fact that a guy is a payer or nonpayer,

where he comes from on the campaign to really try to monetize everyone because at the end of the day, that's really what we're trying to do is really trying to monetize all the players that are in the game. And I think honestly that's a

the game. And I think honestly that's a shift that the whole industry is doing, not only the guys that actually come from from casual or hybrid. Um when you look at the casual players as well uh you know I was playing a bunch of like

travel town for example last week you have a bunch of reward dads uh in travel town uh and I'm not sure we can say active comes from hype casual so and all the games actually are moving towards

that and I think you know we're kind of converging uh towards this hybrid monetization model between uh in apps and ads and I think hybrid is mostly you

know strategy to monetize more than a type of game itself and everyone is converging towards the hybrid monetization model. Yeah. Yeah. Even

monetization model. Yeah. Yeah. Even

like like even talking about hybrid hyper I mean hyper was a different because it was a different business model. Hyper is different but hyper is

model. Hyper is different but hyper is is is not there anymore. Exactly. And

now we're talking about hybrid mod.

We're almost talking about casual games but now you you just have a much more efficient not not efficiency actually a weird word to use because you kill so many games. you just have a a high

many games. you just have a a high volume publishing model where you really separate the hits through data uh that comes from hyper casual background but other than that you're making casual

games. Yeah. I think honestly with the

games. Yeah. I think honestly with the casual companies we're going to the the destination is the same. Yeah. It's just

a way to get there which is very different. So on our side it's going to

different. So on our side it's going to be volume led. So we test you know a bunch of concepts uh that haven't been seen before in the market at least in the in the mobile market with very lean

teams and we expand the size of the teams uh as the games get promising. So

it's kind of a inverted funnel right so funnel for the games but inverted for the for the number of people we actually put on the on the games on their side they actually start with like very big teams from the get- go and work on a

game for like years to actually get there but at the end of the road honestly it's kind of the same that that we're going for. Uh it's games that can retain people for a very long time that

can monetize mostly on inapps uh which you know accounts for more than 50% of the revenue of most of the hybrid players today as we call them uh but also on ads as a complement to basically

monetize everyone that gets in a game.

But the end scenario is a little bit different because a casual games company targets a game that makes hundreds of millions and you target several games that make hundreds of millions. Yeah. So

the the the sum is the same but you try to have multiple different games or not a handful of games that get the same number rather than one game that gets

that number. Uh the goal is really to go

that number. Uh the goal is really to go into making multiple games but each game should be able to compete on its own with the casual leaders uh in this

specific uh segment. And is this a sort of a almost like a new strategy that comes because your funnel stays the same like it's a lot of different tries you push a you you are very very meticulous

in how do you resource the teams that they have to hit a lot of metrics but once you see that the game is on the growth path let's say $100 million a year that's a huge that's a huge success for anybody especially in the current

market but at that point there's no resource limitations you know like whatever it takes if it goes up to a billion we have to staff up a team of 85

people on it, 125. We need to build an IP for it. Sure, it all makes sense because we want this to be a next Candy Crush or whatever you want to use or a Kingdom

match. This what we do. Okay. Yeah.

match. This what we do. Okay. Yeah.

There's no result limitation.

Interesting. It's it's actually it's actually the opposite like uh when a game shows really strong promises uh we tend to invest in a game heavily in

order to actually grow it. And I think that that's really what changed uh over the past two years I would say. So you

know past four years we moved from half casual to hybrid. We tried to stay lean bring these kind of games to the level where they're at today. Now we know how to do it. You know the the

the business uh really turned around. Uh

we have some really good games. Uh we're

growing. Now the key is how do we move to the next step right and to the next the next stage. And the next stage is actually building these casual games that actually compete and become leaders on the market competing against you know

uh casual titles that have been there for years. And the way to get there is

for years. And the way to get there is actually to invest heavily into the resources on the on the games but actually as you were saying you know staffing 80 100 200 people on the games.

I mean the biggest games we have right now have like 35 people on them. Uh but

they have a plan to grow to 50 this year. Uh even more if it's needed. Uh so

year. Uh even more if it's needed. Uh so

we really try to to invest ahead of the results of the games I would say and then after a year or two we see where it gets and then we make a decision like okay should we actually scale down the

team or should we keep you know scaling it up in order to actually build a big game. How do you how do you work with

game. How do you how do you work with developers like you you or no no no you you explain how you work with developers but let's talk about how do you structure your partnerships because the

devil is in the details. Yeah. And like

my own personal experience working with third party developers and then seeing on the side of what can happen the the the almost the most difficult case is when the game succeeds and becomes big

because then you start arguing about the thing that people argue the most which is money and who's who's responsible for the success. Exactly. and the developer

the success. Exactly. and the developer doesn't see the work that you're doing like I mean they see part of it but they don't see the the actual publishing side how much investments go this and then they want to have more money now rather

than less risk taking cuz they are a small studio you can have multiple different hits you can invest a lot of money if it doesn't pay out in the end well at least you try but you have 20 other games that are currently scaling

for them this is the only game they're scaling they've been trying with you 3 years they want to get paid for it so anyway there's a lot of lot of like challenges comes how do you solve that?

Do you acquire the studio? Do you

acquire the asset? Do you do OPEX plus?

Do you do the revenue share? Tell me

about the uh the partnership deals. So,

so let's start at the beginning, right?

Um how do we find the studio? So, we

studios. Uh we tell them how great it is to actually work with Voodoo, how great we are at actually launching games and making, you know, franchises and iconic games and everything.

But these guys, they need to pay the bills at the end of the month, right, before they actually have it. So first

we actually provide financial support uh to the studios. We usually don't cover the whole burn rate because we want to share the risk and as I was saying before we still want the studios to be hungry and actually have this kind of

entrepreneur uh mindset to make the next big game. Uh but we do cover actually

big game. Uh but we do cover actually some of it against uh the delivery of prototypes. Usually these are monthly

prototypes. Usually these are monthly fees. We don't really like to go on, you

fees. We don't really like to go on, you know, a paper prototype model because we don't want these guys to just create a kind of prototyping factory and just like ship shitty games to the to the

market. Uh we want the games to be, you

market. Uh we want the games to be, you know, the right ones with the right amount of uh work put into it and effort uh and really the kind of quality and game feel we're looking for. Uh as we're saying, you know, the guys need to love

the game, not only do the games uh to actually pay the bills uh at the end of the month. Once we have a game that

the month. Once we have a game that actually is promising that's when we actually move to the publishing agreement. So right two contracts one is

agreement. So right two contracts one is actually for prototyping the other one is for uh publishing and so publishing usually the way we structure the contracts are kind

of standard you know revenue shares uh that provide you know full transparency uh to studios but also reflect the

involvement uh we take in the game and how much resources we actually invest in this game. And that's where the revenue

this game. And that's where the revenue share that at Voodoo is going to be different potentially from the other publishers is that usually it's lower uh revenue share that we bring to the

studios that actually decreases uh over time as we invest more resources but all the terms agreed up front right so we we don't change the terms throughout the contract we can't because actually

there's a contract that's signed by both parties so you can't change it like this you know uh it's something that's initially agreed and that actually will stay throughout the life of the studio.

But the reason why actually uh this is decreasing at certain point is because if the game becomes big, we staff a team on the project and the original studio

doesn't have any involvement anymore in the game. So they just see the royalties

the game. So they just see the royalties uh coming in. Uh yeah, it's it's passive income. Exactly. And actually we have

income. Exactly. And actually we have the live studios working on the game. So

you take mob control, you take block jam, you take even paper two now like uh you take uh monster survivors. So, you

know, most of the games that should be launched over the past years, uh, if not all of them have a live studio stuffed on it, which is internal to Voodoo and doing everything on the game, uh, from

regular SDK updates, which are pretty basic, but also to like incremental upgrades with like features and trying to lift, you know, LTV retention and all the metrics to be able to scale the game

further uh, than it is uh, right now.

So, that's that's the way it's going to work. We need to be able to basically

work. We need to be able to basically invest resources in the game to actually grow it. And I think that's what the

grow it. And I think that's what the contract reflects and it's a win-win situation actually for us and the studios because we usually provide the highest payouts to the studios because

our games are the biggest in the market at least margin wise you know. So we we scale the games profitably uh we give back some of

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What's the biggest misconception that people have about how Wudoo works with external studios? I think the main one

external studios? I think the main one is that they would see us as clients uh more than partners. Um as you were saying, you know, with this model of

like OPEX plus or OPX minus, the thing is that when you pay OPEX plus and you prototype for for a publisher, the publisher is basically a client, right?

So it's it's a bit like a an outsourcing uh company. You're just building

uh company. You're just building prototype and the guy is paying at the end a month uh and that's it. And he's

making all the shots on what you should do. On our side, we really don't see it

do. On our side, we really don't see it this way. Uh and we really firmly

this way. Uh and we really firmly believe that the studios are partners with Voodoo and that we're both uh

partners. our objectives are the same,

partners. our objectives are the same, you know, like honestly at the end of the day, uh we're an independent company. We're not owned by a large

company. We're not owned by a large corporation or anything. So, we need to make profit. Uh and and the games, uh

make profit. Uh and and the games, uh are, you know, the the main business of Voodoo. Uh and this is actually where we

Voodoo. Uh and this is actually where we need to make money. And these guys, if they're a refer with us, if we end up making profit, they also will be making profit. So they really needed to see

profit. So they really needed to see that the objectives are exactly the same which is making as much margin on the game for as long as possible uh in the

future. So really I think the

future. So really I think the misconception is seeing us as clients uh more than more than partners and I think you know there's always a debate around whether or not it's useful to to work

with the publisher and I think one of the misconceptions as well that the small studios might have is that they can do everything uh by themselves. I think this is not

themselves. I think this is not completely true. Uh and I think for

completely true. Uh and I think for small teams honestly it's become very complex uh to launch games uh on mobile and you need to get some kind of an you

know unfair advantage uh somewhere and the publishers and mostly voodoo actually uh bring to the table that unfair advantage uh that you can get and you know there are several ways to see

it. First, you get access to trends uh

it. First, you get access to trends uh early on. Uh because as we test 2,000

early on. Uh because as we test 2,000 games per year, usually not doing copycats uh we see the trends before they actually get in the top charts and so we can share these with the studios and I think that's pretty cool for them

uh because they're able to actually get access to more data and more information that they would get on their own. You

get access to, you know, worldass uh growth engine that's actually been built to sustain multiple games, not only one game. So for us it's really easy to plug

game. So for us it's really easy to plug in a game and just launch it. All of the tools have been build built uh to scale the games uh and do ca do UA do add

monet playables whatever uh for multiple games and so we're really able to do this uh fast and very efficiently and very well. And last but not least, these

very well. And last but not least, these studios are usually really creative and really good at finding a good concept initially, but they might be missing, you know, the product expertise to

operate a game at scale and make it into a game that has the chance to compete as we were saying with the the biggest uh casual titles out there. And so we can bring in, you know, these people and

this expertise uh to actually create, you know, top-notch, you know, retention and monetization uh in these games. So I

think this is really um how we should do it, how we should see it, not clients, partners and partners because we share

the same objectives and we bring to the table a lot uh to the studios in order to make them successful. That's a it's a really good answer. Uh actually I was thinking about like what are the the

common mistakes that developers do when they try to build a hit game and I think the first one that you mentioned seeing publisher as a client might be the biggest mistake because now you're

optimizing against what you think should be done or what an individ publishing manager individual person might think is the most important thing rather than being a game creator who's like I think

this is the best thing I'm thinking about the player I'm I'm thinking about what to stand out. But now I'm only thinking about a guy at UO in Paris who's giving me feedback. Yeah, we need

to have a chat. You know, it's uh the the best studios they speak on a daily basis uh with the publishing manager and and they really think about what's good for the player and I think that's really what changed as well and compared to the

happy casual days as I was saying, you know, quality was pretty secondary back in the days. Now we need to think about the whole experience, right? We need to think about uh how the game should be uh

for the players. And so usually the developers are going to think this way because these guys they bring the passion uh they bring the knowhow uh and they bring the vision they will have in

their game. Um but what we will bring to

their game. Um but what we will bring to them is the ability to think differently and see things differently. And you know I would say the common mistakes are

first developers tend to think small. I

don't know if that's the right way to say it, but they they will actually try to um to follow trends that exist. Uh

and you will never build a lead leader by actually following a trend that's already in the market. Uh

second, they tend to want to build a game for themselves. Mhm. Uh and that's I think something we see a lot uh which is uh developers building super hardcore

games uh that actually are good just for hardcore players and not for mass market mobile players. Um and last but not

mobile players. Um and last but not least, I think iterating is is a big point. I think you shouldn't iterate too

point. I think you shouldn't iterate too much on a game. And we bring this kind of challenge to the developer of like you know you have this game it has these

kind of stats this is how it compares to all the games we tested in the past with similar mechanics similar theme for example and then none of them worked uh

you know and even if we look at the industry none of them worked so you know you shouldn't spend too much time on it they actually moved something else and so we we also push them uh it's a bit like we're a bit like consultants uh to

these towards the next opportunity and towards um a new way to actually build the next big game uh for them because usually they will spend like you know six to 12

a month on a game that's going to end up making a bit of margin.

Okay, it's making, I don't know, like, you know, 20K per month. That's okay.

I'm going to try to optimize it. Maybe

you're gonna make like 23 24K per month.

But all of this time you actually spend on this game. It's not time that you've spent on a game that could be making, you know, millions per month, obviously.

And and and I think this is where we come in and we're trying to refocus them on on the important thing for us obviously, you know, we we think about ourselves, but also for them because as

I was saying, our incentives are completely aligned. uh at the end of the

completely aligned. uh at the end of the day that that's a I think that's really what separates you and and a few other publishers from everybody else in the

market is your ability to kill games at such a volume and how difficult it is to kill a game at almost any other company.

It is it is but even internally we see it like honestly we I mean in my teams people get bashit about the product like the the publishing the publishing managers they work with studios and

killing a game that they really believed in initially it's super hard for them because that's like you know it's uh it's like their baby. So we we really need to uh

I need to look at the games myself and go like hey you know man like this is just not going to work. Uh we've tested this like hundreds of times. I've seen

these stats thousands of times. It never clicked. It never

times. It never clicked. It never

converted. We tried to launch these games. It never worked. So, move on to

games. It never worked. So, move on to something else. And and I think that's

something else. And and I think that's really what sets us apart, as you were saying, from the from the the rest of the industry, which is we take a very cold and and rational look at the game

and think we should kill it. And that's the the culture uh of the company revolves around this actually. But it's not easy still as that's the thing that you said.

It's it's that's why I appreciate it so much because you're doing the difficult thing over and over and over again like over thousand times or almost 2,000 times a year. And what's most

interesting is the studios are also killing their own get babies. And but

they're not killing their passion.

They're not killing their enthusiasm.

They're not killing their drive. They're

just killing this one thing that they thought would be the next big thing only to work on the next thing that's going to be the big thing. and killing that again and working on the next. So, it's

like it's like that passion never dies even if you kill Yeah. the game and and we in we make mistakes sometimes like let's face it sometimes we kill and we

shouldn't kill uh and we see games in the in the charts that actually uh start going up. Yeah, we had this game like

going up. Yeah, we had this game like six months ago. Uh so this happens pretty often. Uh but you know we need we

pretty often. Uh but you know we need we need to take a stance, you know, we need to take a position. We need to to have opinions on the games. That's very

important. We're very much involved in the product. We're very much uh involved

the product. We're very much uh involved in the vision and where it can go. And

so we have strong opinions uh about the games and what we think has a chance to work and and doesn't have a chance to work and and we admit it. Sometimes

we're wrong and actually we learn from these mistakes. That's super important.

these mistakes. That's super important.

All right. Well, I have three questions to take it off. These are short ones.

So, what's your advice to break into Woodoo's ecosystem for a studio?

I would say first of all you need to refocus on the on the basics you know like based on everything we said uh until this point um you really need to

be amazing at executing um your Korean play you know and and really be looking uh for innovation so look for innovation that's basic stuff but you know you

shouldn't forget about it and build an amazing uh core gameplay that's amazingly executed and I think that's that's super important and that's the first thing Um, and then you need to be

able to work with our approach. Uh, and

you need to accept the fact that we killed games. Uh, so going back to the

killed games. Uh, so going back to the to the previous question, really you shouldn't spend too much time on a concept that doesn't show, you know, great promises because that's really what's going to hurt you in the long

run. Uh, because you will be missing

run. Uh, because you will be missing these games and actually all of these games you have in the backlog will be taken over by someone else. we're not

sharing these concepts with other people but just people have the same kind of stimulus for ideiation and so the concept someone else will find it and this can become the big game so we don't

spend too much time so I think speed innovation and quality are the key and if you manage to actually get these three all together you have a shot at making it and and you really have a shot

at actually breaking into you know our ecosystem and actually uh building a successful collaboration with us and a game that has a variety in core gameplay. Exactly. Super important. Uh,

gameplay. Exactly. Super important. Uh,

okay. Second question is, let's say a studio is that type of a thing, a type of a studio that that finds themselves in the ecosystem and finds making a successful game. What's the carrot?

successful game. What's the carrot?

Meaning like how much can a studio earn in a positive case working with?

Millions for sure. Uh, millions for sure. That's a healthy carrot for a

sure. That's a healthy carrot for a hungry team. That's pretty good. That's

hungry team. That's pretty good. That's

pretty good. Okay. and small enough carrot to maybe earn a couple of more of those. Yeah. Yeah. So, so that's that's

those. Yeah. Yeah. So, so that's that's that's a good number. Okay. Uh last

thing, what excites you about the industry right now the most?

I think it's the ability of a player like Voodoo uh to really become, you know, a leader in the top grossing charts and really come to compete against the incumbents. we we started

doing it, you know, we moved away from h casual uh and I think the way we work and the methodology we use to actually launch games and allow you know smaller studios to actually come and compete uh

with giants and incumbents is really powerful and is really the way to go to actually uh succeed and I think you know in the next few years uh we'll take the

industry by storm uh and basically come and and compete if not beat actually uh these bigger players so games on top of the grossing charts in the coming years.

That's, you know, that's what we're pushing for and that's actually what we aim for. That's really the goal is to

aim for. That's really the goal is to build, you know, franchises, iconic games that can really be at the top of these charts and and

really come and and beat and surpass all of these incumbents and and players that have been there for years. And you know what? That's not a crazy idea because

what? That's not a crazy idea because that's been done before. Merge Dragons,

Graham Games, single person made that.

They acquired the game, launch it, scale it. One of the biggest games. It's

it. One of the biggest games. It's

pretty big now. Yeah. But you're going to do many of those. Yeah. Many. That's

the thing like we we we really want to build, you know, portfolio of products.

Uh it's not one game. Uh and we want to keep this approach of like, you know, testing fast, small teams, uh and then growing if the opportunity is here, but always thinking about what's next. We're

never going to put all our eggs in the same basket. That's not a culture. It's

same basket. That's not a culture. It's

really about building as many big games as possible, not limiting ourselves. uh

and really uh and really killing it.

Excited to play a future Voodoo franchises. Thank you. Thanks.

franchises. Thank you. Thanks.

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