Why the One-Man Dev Team is Replacing Traditional No-Code Workflows (with Matt Evans)

I was just like, I I can't be bothered just putting ads on the internet for the rest of my life. So, I I quit and set up a coffee subscription company. I

probably had like 3 weeks of Web Flow experience and I started building and then one thing led to another, you get referrals and before you know it, I'm a Web Flow developer and you're building

sites for these big brands and getting referred. I think when you see people

referred. I think when you see people who are like super let's say anti-AII, I feel like it's a fear in them because they've fully built themselves around

this one tool and they feel that if it slows down, they will slow down too. And

I'm sitting in my room on my own with all this context, all these kind of pair programmers. I've got a whole team of

programmers. I've got a whole team of people here and I'm the CEO in the middle. It's just it's it's ridiculous

middle. It's just it's it's ridiculous what you can do. You know,

>> I've been building web apps with web flow for a while. So like web flow, member stack, originally Zap year, then I started using make and it was so cool because you're actually able to get

genuine functional web apps working using these tools. But like you kind of have to be hacky.

>> So I sold my two Bitcoin so I could go skiing. Now obviously that's a that was

skiing. Now obviously that's a that was a ridiculous >> trip. Very expensive skiing trip.

>> trip. Very expensive skiing trip.

>> How's it going?

>> Yeah, very good, thanks. Very good. You

caught me in my new office. So, I've got my um we we moved house about two months ago, so I'm in uh in my new office. I've

moved out of my kids bedroom, which is which is always nice.

>> That is definitely nice. I hate moving though, unless it's an upgrade. So, are

you happy with the move?

>> We are. Yeah, we've we've probably uh Yeah, we've gone from like an 80 square meter apartment to a 300 square meter house. So, we're uh we're very happy. We

house. So, we're uh we're very happy. We

kind of we lose ourselves. We got rooms that we don't use, you know, that kind of way. So, yeah.

of way. So, yeah.

>> Exact same position that uh I was in like a couple months ago. We we ended up having to very quickly relocate because we're I'm Canadian. We lived in Serbia for a while. I have a house in Serbia

and then we had to leave pretty quickly and we ended up coming to Italy and we got this like Airbnb right away and it was it was tiny. So, I was I was in my

kids' room basically, and I had to like move everything around, kick everyone out when I was going to record something. And then we ended up finding

something. And then we ended up finding this house. The cool thing about Italy

this house. The cool thing about Italy is that nobody here wants to live in the country. Everyone wants to live in the

country. Everyone wants to live in the city. And so, you can find a house in

city. And so, you can find a house in the country, like a big house for not a lot of money because nobody else wants it. And so, we ended up, we weren't

it. And so, we ended up, we weren't looking for anything big, but similar.

We somehow ended up finding a house with like there's like three separate parts.

It's like 300 mters. 80% of this house is like unused right now. It's insane.

Not having any space to not knowing what to do with the space very quickly.

>> Yeah. Well, I I I we hear a lot over here about the, you know, in random newspapers you get the, you know, an Italian um villager saying, "Look, come and live here and we'll pay you to live here and

we'll give you a grant to do up the house and all this kind of And we we we got married in Italy in um in Penza. So

we Italy is like our favorite country in the world.

>> Nice. Is it's it's a cool place. I'm

Italian. Like my background quite a few times growing up, but I never thought >> about living here. And then long story short, I kept having car issues in

Serbia. It's a long story. I could

Serbia. It's a long story. I could

really get into it, but short had a car.

It was a hybrid. It had battery issues and I was like, "Okay, I got to trade this and get something that's a bit more not going to be a giant repair bill."

Traded it, got a car, the motor blew up in like literally one month. I had

actually, funny enough, we were planning a road trip to Ireland. Um,

>> okay.

>> My wife's brother lives in Ireland. So,

we were planning that motor blew up. We

had to cancel it. It was like €6,000 to fix this freaking motor. And then I'm like, "Okay, I got it fixed. Now I'm

going to trade it for a car that's a bit easier to sell and then I'm just going to get something cheaper." I trade it for a car, go to register this car. They

lock me in the police station and they're like, "This car is stolen.

>> Oh no. Oh no."

>> First I had to have a long conversation with the police and explain the paperwork. I'm like, "Okay, I didn't

paperwork. I'm like, "Okay, I didn't steal it. I don't know if it's stolen,

steal it. I don't know if it's stolen, but I didn't steal it. So that was all good." Uh, and then I went to a lawyer

good." Uh, and then I went to a lawyer and I'm like, "How do I like recuperate any of this?" And he ends up telling me, he's like, "Whoever did this has like connections in the government and

they're going to get a letter with like your address on it." And I'm like, "Is that like something I should be concerned about?" And he's like, "Well,

concerned about?" And he's like, "Well, maybe." So, we're like, "Yeah, we got

maybe." So, we're like, "Yeah, we got to" and I had had numerous issues before that leading up in Serbia. I'm like, "We got to get out like now."

We literally we decided to go to Greece and then I call my dad. He's like,

"Greece? Why would you go to Greece?"

I'm like, "I don't know." He's like, "Why don't you go to Italy?" I'm like, "It right. I forgot about that place."

"It right. I forgot about that place."

Um, which is funny because like growing up, you know, in Canada, everyone comes from like an immigrant background for the most part. And so, like growing up, whenever someone's like, "Where are you from?" I'm from Italy. Even though I'm

from?" I'm from Italy. Even though I'm not from Italy, right? But that's just normal. That's what people do. And so we

normal. That's what people do. And so we ended up coming here and it has been we've loved it. We have been absolutely loving it. It's it's a great place.

loving it. It's it's a great place.

Italy, like any country, has its issues, but the thing is most of Italy's issues are the economy. And if you work online

in other economies, then it's not really a problem. So it's been great. We're in

a problem. So it's been great. We're in

the region of Marqu. I don't know.

Nobody knows where that is because it's like not a place that people really go to, but it's super chill. It's kind of like it's central Italy. So, it's a bit

more Italian than north Italy and a bit more developed than south Italy. And

>> I love it. It's great.

>> So, where is it near? Is it north of North of Rome, I guess? Is it or >> north of Rome? It's like basically I mean, you know, Tuskanyany.

>> Tuskany. Yeah.

>> Tuskan is on the west, Mary's on the east. Oh,

east. Oh, >> okay. So like um Umbria is it Umbria

>> okay. So like um Umbria is it Umbria nearby that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

nearby that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

>> In Umbria on Sunday actually.

>> Okay. Oh it's just it's a just gorgeous part of the world though, isn't it? It's

it's uh as you say economics is not their powerhouse industry powerhouses, but it's just I'm not sure it's an entrepreneurial

uh you know like the UK or or like the states or Canada. I guess is just like you can set businesses up very very quickly. Whereas I think there's a lot

quickly. Whereas I think there's a lot of red tape, isn't there? A lot of red tape and just, you know, just do it when you do it kind of thing, you know.

>> Exactly. And the other thing is a lot of people they talk about wanting to be somewhere that's like, you know, the vibe is very creative and ambitious and stuff like that. The vibe where I live

is like elderly.

I don't know how to explain it. There

are no young people here. Like we have two kids and I think like half of the children in the village are ours.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. Okay. Yeah. It sounds like it's um sounds like a decent amount of of rural Ireland is like that. A lot of a lot of rural schools are closing down because

there's not enough kids essentially.

>> Yep. you know. Yeah, it's um but the the like we we've got uh across the road we've got a little um like a community hall and on Monday nights we didn't realize but on a Monday nights I saw

these flashing lights coming out the window this community hall.

>> What is go this must be a kids party or something you know. Um

>> it transpires that it's just dancing. So

all the all the local retirees from around probably northwest of Ireland come to this little thing and they just do dancing on a Monday night every

Monday night. It's like the most

Monday night. It's like the most happening place. Like we're there

happening place. Like we're there watching, you know, our Netflix and thinking that, you know, there's nothing going on and all the oldies are out there dancing and driving and, you know, getting to know each other and, you

know, it's just so yeah, once you look behind the surface of little villages, sometimes you see these amazing communities, they just, you know, they're just active, you know. Over here

it's the same. Like on the surface it looks very quiet, very very meek, you know, but underneath everything it's pretty cool. Loads. Yeah.

pretty cool. Loads. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's very like farm farming area. It's in where I where I

farming area. It's in where I where I walk the dog is on the edge of the most uh sparsely populated part of Ireland, which is >> really

>> Yeah. So you there's a there's like a um

>> Yeah. So you there's a there's like a um a wild what's what's it called? It's

called um wild wild light. So you there you can go into the middle here and then there's so little habit like habitation in terms of humans that you can see the stars whereas a lot of other places I

suppose in Europe you can't see the stars properly because of the um light pollution whereas there's places here now like you know it's probably about 10-minute drive away where you can go and it's just there's no lights there's

no you know for miles and miles and miles and >> you don't want to get lost out there because no one no one's going to come and help you but it's Like, yeah, it's it's pretty cool. It's pretty cool.

>> That's the thing. I have to really rely on my old Rav 4 to turn on because if it doesn't, then I can't even get groceries

out here. Are you from Ireland or are

out here. Are you from Ireland or are you from the UK originally? And I'm only asking because the accent I feel like Irish accents are usually more Irish.

>> Yeah. No, no, no. Good. Yeah. I'm I'm

from Wales originally, so >> there you go. But but my I I wouldn't have a Welsh accent. I I lived in London uh 15 years before we moved here.

>> And before that I lived in the UK like England for a long time. My parents

moved around and stuff. My like my dad was a he was a fighter pilot. So we

moved around different bases >> every three every three or four years.

Yeah. So my accent is a kind of >> more of an English hybrid.

>> But then my my wife is from from just down the road here. So that's why we moved over here.

It's kind of home from home now.

>> My brother-in-law who is just Canadian and moved to Ireland is funny. He's been

in Ireland for I think like 12 13 years now and his accent has changed. Like I'm

not going to say he doesn't like sound Irish or anything like that, but the way that he says words sometimes you can feel the Irish twang even though he has

a Canadian accent.

>> Canadian would be like, "I'm going to go to the store now." And he's like, "We're going to the store now." You know?

>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You can Yeah. It's

It's It's funny. Even from the UK to Ireland, there's so many things I say which are Irish, but they're not I don't sound Irish saying it. They're just the

Irish way of saying it.

>> Uh what is the language called Irish?

>> Gaelic. Yeah. Yeah. No. No. The kids the kids will learn it. So, you have to do it in school up until you're 15, I think.

>> Really? Um but it's not it's not really a it's not a language of business over here, you know.

>> Yeah.

>> Um so it's not um >> Right.

>> Yeah. Every everyone kind of everyone has it in their locker, but they don't speak it to each other, if that makes sense.

>> So it's not a you're not missing out if you can't speak Irish. Um whereas like in Wales, where I'm from in Wales, um you can walk around town into all the

shops and just speak Welsh. Like there

were there's guys coming to my school and they were 11 and they'd never spoke English before. You know that kind of

English before. You know that kind of whereas here you'd never get that. You

know >> you speak Welsh then?

>> No. So I don't I don't speak Welsh. I

speak my my mom and all my extended family will speak Welsh. But because I lived in England a lot, we never really used Welsh at home. So um yeah. So I

probably over over the next 10 years I'll probably learn more Irish than I will Welsh, you know.

Welsh is an insane language. Every time

I see it, I can't even begin to imagine like how to pronounce those words.

>> Yeah. The thing is the the irony of it is it's it sounds so it's a phonetic language.

>> So once you know the alphabet when you see a word you know you know how to say it. Whereas the the English language,

it. Whereas the the English language, >> you know, like the English language is a hard language because you have to put O and E and A and and an E at the end changes the O and the it's like there's

a lot of rules, whereas the Welsh language is that's what it sounds like.

Just say it as it sounds, you know. Um

but it, you know, you still need to know the alphabet like a double L or or Y or you know, but >> that is it's the same as Serbian. I

ended up learning Serbian which was not easy but I figured it out. Same thing

there's one letter and each letter is a sound period. First thing I want to ask

sound period. First thing I want to ask you Matt is uh how you got into web flow because one thing that I've noticed is every single person who's in the web

flow space. I mean if you're let's say

flow space. I mean if you're let's say like a front-end developer usually okay like I went got a CS degree and then you know got an internship and whatever.

It's kind of a standard path. Web flow

industry is not like that. Everyone has

kind of like a cool story. And I was looking at your LinkedIn and I see you've done a lot of different things.

So give me give me the story. Give me

the story.

>> Where do I start?

>> Um yeah. No. So I I started in London. I

started building a website in I can't remember what it was called at the time.

>> It was one of the dream it wasn't Dreamweaver. It was fire something. It

Dreamweaver. It was fire something. It

was I can't even remember what it was like Adobe kind of character. Anyway, I

was building it and I got as far as setting up the front end and all this kind of stuff. It it was almost like a precursor to Web Flow except I couldn't publish it. I didn't know how to get a

publish it. I didn't know how to get a server. I didn't know how to take

server. I didn't know how to take payments. I didn't know how to I didn't

payments. I didn't know how to I didn't know how to do a lot of the stuff that you can just do with a click of your fingers these days, you know. And that

kind of gave me a taste for stuff. So, I

got it to the point where on my computer it worked, but it didn't work anywhere else. And then I went to uni and then I

else. And then I went to uni and then I needed to get a job and I got into advertising in London and I was working for big brands doing their digital marketing like banner ads and search ads

and affiliate ads and all this kind of stuff. It got to a point when I think I

stuff. It got to a point when I think I moved to my second agency or third agency. um you kind of it was like a

agency. um you kind of it was like a merrygoround in in London where you move to different different agencies to get a bit of a pay rise and move up you know

bit promotion and I was just like I can't be bothered just putting ads on the internet for the rest of my life. So

I I quit and set up a coffee subscription company. So sub

subscription company. So sub subscriptions still in my head. It's

like I drink coffee every single day.

mate of mine. We were training for a triathlon at the time and we were spending a shitload of money on coffee and we're like we kick running out of coffee. We like it was a Tuesday and we

coffee. We like it was a Tuesday and we run out of coffee or it was a a Friday and we'd run out of coffee. We're like

surely if we get coffee delivered to our door we'll solve our problem. We'll

always have really fresh coffee in our in our house, you know. Anyway, there

was nothing providing this kind of coffee. So we decided to build it

coffee. So we decided to build it ourselves and started to build an app and try and code it and realized that we were way out of our debt. We had no

developer skills. So we got a developer

developer skills. So we got a developer friend in spent probably five grand and at the time we were like looking behind the couch to try and find this money. I

was like it's a lot of money and we don't know if it's going to work. And I

did that for probably four years. We got

a business up and running where we were selling coffee online and I was doing a bit of the front-end stuff. So, I taught myself a bit of HTML, CSS. I went on a coding camp which is, you know, these

three-month coding camps where I learned some Ruby on Rails and tried to build another a new version of this sort of

thing. And I I realized I was okay, but

thing. And I I realized I was okay, but I was never going to be a developer.

Never going to be a developer. just I

syntax and all the geeky server side stuff and security and it's just it wasn't I was more about product strategy you know a little bit of design I'm not a designer but a little bit of design

about customer service all that kind of all the product stuff so got into product management so I I basically started applying for product management roles not knowing that product

management sometimes is more management than product so I I got into a few roles where I'm just not a good I don't want to be in a Jira board or a Trello board

moving stuff around telling other people you know working with developers and designers was good but creating tickets and waiting for them to do the stuff I just got frustrated and one day I can't

remember what it was I think it was there was a guy called Ben Tossel who um ran yeah make a pad and I was doing a few of his sort of videos something came

up a connection came up there somehow. I

think it was maybe on the forum with a guy and he said, "I'm looking for someone to help with a fiverside soccer league app." And I said, "Oh, yeah. I'll

league app." And I said, "Oh, yeah. I'll

I'll give it a go." And the job was basically jump into Figma. Well, I

didn't have to jump into Figma, but that was the the obvious one because I was playing around with Figma. Figma's were

big in the prototyping world at the time. you know, it was like Mosaic and

time. you know, it was like Mosaic and Balsamic and stuff were getting hit by this Figma, you know, you could link up prototypes. So, I started building this

prototypes. So, I started building this fireside league in Figma. And I think probably about two weeks in, I was looking at this Figma chart and there were lines going everywhere. What

happens if you click this button? It

goes to this this view and this view and this view and this view. I was like, I got to build I've got to I've got to actually build this. I can't use Figma to to show the client what happens because he was going, "Oh, can we just

change this?" I was like, "Oh, if I

change this?" I was like, "Oh, if I change that, I've got to unlink this and create this and unlink this." And before you know it, it was just so I I think again I went probably went back to the

Makeaker Pad forums and someone was saying, "Look, Web Flow is a good front-end tool." And if you rewind all

front-end tool." And if you rewind all the way back to the Dreamweavers and those tools I was using then, they were very similar. And I thought, "This is

very similar. And I thought, "This is it. I can just I can just build a

it. I can just I can just build a website to show off the prototype." So I basically got into web flow just to be able to build a prototype because Figma wasn't scaling for me you know one thing

led to another and again on the make a pad forum or even no I think it was Ben actually himself he put something there and you know deal there's a company

called deal d e yeah >> yeah and they had a gig the guy I think Ben knew the founder there for some reason I got a call with this guy who you know who is now a probably

multi-millionaire very successful ful and it was like yeah um yeah we need a few pages and I said yeah I can I can do it I probably had like 3 weeks of web flow experience and I started building

and then one thing led to another you get referrals and before you know it I'm a web flow developer and you're building sites for these big brands and getting referred and yeah I did some stuff with

with Ben was amazing because he just built stuff and he still does you know with the AI stuff he just builds stuff and he didn't worry about whether a div had the write class on it or you know he

had you know if you look at any of his projects it was like div 5678 and then div 567 89 and then and I had I did a little project with him to try and tidy those things up and just yeah just

that's how I got into it and before you know it you know I'm like I'm making money doing this and what I get getting to 8020 was um the agency out in um in

well where are they based Oak Oakland is it I can't remember I never met the guys like and I worked with um worked with them for a year, worked on some some really big complex projects and some

smaller projects and yeah and been doing been doing that ever since really. So

yeah, it's it's bit been bit of a a weird one like my my wife probably doesn't even know what I do really dayto-day, you know, she's she's got no interest in that stuff and yeah, I've just started to meet loads of people

online and before you know it, you know, you're a web flow person. And then me and Allan did the podcast because we were chatting like this probably every couple of days and solving problems and we thought right why don't we do this on

a YouTube or a podcast because other people might find it useful and before you know it you get invited to talk at events and all that kind of stuff but yeah that's very random very random and

now my next iteration is I'm probably moving away from web flow because of the new well like you you guys have been doing with member stack is like I just want to build stuff I had a moment years ago I was a product manager and I was

sitting there and it was about 7:00 at night. We'd come out of this

night. We'd come out of this brainstorming session and I was sitting there with one of the engineers instead of writing a ticket. It was like let's just do it now, you know, and he he was fresh. He was like 2 weeks into the job.

fresh. He was like 2 weeks into the job.

So he was I wouldn't say naive but he had lots of energy and we just did the thing there and then at the desk and I was watching him do it and I was I was coming up with oh what if we did this and sending over little designs and

tuning and that is that's where I really get the kick is like doing stuff seeing it work and rolling it out and that's where I am now with web flow is still I still do lots of web flow projects but

my main client essentially is we're building an LMS and I've start I started on web flow started using wiz pulled in zano then pulled in superbase then you

know over the last year AI has come along and gone maybe I don't need to use wiz or learn how to use wiz or um you know we used outer member stack we tried that to start with and that you get to

limitations of what you can do with the web flow database and all that and but now we're fully fully clawed code Astro

um with spelt islands and stuff that I really don't know half the stuff that's under the hood. You know, it's like a modern car. It's like I know there's an

modern car. It's like I know there's an engine. I know there's things, but you

engine. I know there's things, but you ask to do anything with it. Like, I'd

have to I'd have to ask my AI assistant how to do it. So, and who knows who knows where we're going now. Like, who

knows where the the world is going because like I'm just driven by product delivery. Like not like product market

delivery. Like not like product market fit and stuff, but just like there's a problem, here's a solution. What's the

best way to deliver that? Um, and and I don't worry too much about the tool set, you know.

>> I agree. I am on a similar page.

Something I think you're gonna find funny is actually how I discovered Web Flow. So, I was back back in my day, I

Flow. So, I was back back in my day, I think I was like 16 at the time. Um, I

was getting into freelancing, really just making anything for anyone, similar to what you said where it's like, "Oh, can you make me a Web Flow site?" Yeah,

why not? You know, I'll figure it out somehow. And so, that was what I did.

somehow. And so, that was what I did.

And I ended up getting a client who I actually ended up starting an agency with after. And this guy has another

with after. And this guy has another client who he needs a website for. And I

was thinking, okay, I I'm past the whole like Wix and Squarespace stuff. I want

to make something professional, you know, pixel for pixel the way that I want it to be. And so I'm looking around and I actually discovered a certain little product called Framer. and

framer.

I look at it and it's like you just design like in I used Adobe XD at the time, but you just design like in Figma, Adobe XD, and you're going to end up with, you know, production ready code,

it said. So, I'm like, perfect. All

it said. So, I'm like, perfect. All

right. So, I build out this whole website for this guy's client using Framer. And then I present it to the

Framer. And then I present it to the client. They love it. Everything's good.

client. They love it. Everything's good.

Project is a success. And I'm like, publish?

Uh, you can't publish it. What? So, I

ended up actually contacting the Framer team and I'm like, "Guys, I must be missing something here. How do I put this on a custom domain and get it live on the web?" And they're like, "No, Framer isn't a tool for building like

production websites. Framer is a

production websites. Framer is a prototyping tool." I'm like, "Uh, what?"

prototyping tool." I'm like, "Uh, what?"

They're like, "Yeah, no, you can't actually publish something on the web with Framer." I'm like, "Guys, no. This

with Framer." I'm like, "Guys, no. This

client wants their site live tomorrow.

Please, please, please." And so I ended up having to uh have someone build out like a custom WordPress theme and it kind of got, you know, messy towards the end, which is funny because obviously a couple years later, as we know at this

point in time, that's exactly what Framer is. So I tried to use Framer for

Framer is. So I tried to use Framer for something that it wasn't way back when.

And then a few years later, I guess they caught on. They're like, "Wait, why

caught on. They're like, "Wait, why aren't we building the thing?" I don't know if they remembered me. They

probably didn't, but you know that that this dude said said it. And so after that project, my uh who ended up actually turning into my co-founder at the agency, this client at the time,

he's like, "I heard about this thing called Web Flow." And he shows it to me.

I try it. And I'm like, "There we go.

That's exactly what I'm going for." But

the thing is, similar to you, all I had was a goal to build something properly professionally without having to do same thing. I tried to learn coding and it's

thing. I tried to learn coding and it's like all right yeah I can kind of figure this stuff out but like you're spending 80 90% of your time on this hard skill this like syntax and figuring out how

all this stuff works. It's a big big big learning curve and I just wasn't into it. So fast forward you know I love web

it. So fast forward you know I love web flow I really built the biggest part of my career all around web flow but that desire to just build stuff. I don't care

what's happening under the hood, especially once I discovered cloud code.

I I took a kind of a longer path. So I

I've been building web apps with web flow for a while. So like web flow, member stack, originally Zap year, then I started using make and it was so cool because you're actually able to get

genuine functional web apps working using these tools. But like you kind of have to be hacky, you know, like I was using the web flow CMS as my database

for most things. And here's the thing, it works, but it's not the best. So then

WIS came around and I was using chat GPT to help me make like GPT 3.5 sort of thing.

>> Yeah.

>> These scripts for Whiz. And that was a huge upgrade. Like, okay, this actually

huge upgrade. Like, okay, this actually feels like a real app at this point, not just something that I threw together using a couple of tools. So that was super cool. I got super into Wiz. And

super cool. I got super into Wiz. And

then shortly after that cursor came around and then I'm like okay I don't need to have a conversation with chat gbt paste it into here do the stuff in web flow I just say make me this it does

that refine iterate refine iterate then cloud code came around and that for me absolutely changed everything it's so you've used claw code obviously as you

said you use cursor too yeah >> yeah I think well probably yeah my last subscription for cursor probably ran out about a week ago >> yeah Yeah.

>> And I I I use it every so often sometimes just cuz it's it's almost my IDE of choice when I want to I don't know boot

up a server or reset, you know. Again,

I'm I'm coming from a world where and one of the benefits I suppose one of the crutches of Web Flow is you don't have to deal with any of that server stuff.

>> Yes. So, so we're now in a new world where you still have to deal with all that stuff and there are tools coming out, I guess, where you don't have to think about, you know, like [ __ ] studio with you guys is like it's coming out

and it's it's doing a bit more handholding and a bit more of a, you know, the setup stuff, but you still have to think about this stuff, you know, and when the server goes down or a message comes up. So, there's still lots

of learning curves and curs is almost like a my my geeky part of it, but most of the time I'm in the clawed code environment and you know, the terminal

is just something that's that's kind of hidden away and you know, I'm not I I think it's it's really interesting because the way the way I the way I went

was I started this these boot camps that I had, okay, these boot camps I you go in there and they would teach you the basics, real basics. And just just to give you an idea of when I was doing

this boot camp, Bitcoin at the time was $17 for one Bitcoin. Okay? And I just tell you a side story is we're all sitting down there having lunch and on these

bean bags because that was the thing you did. You know these everyone has bean

did. You know these everyone has bean bags. They don't have chairs. They have

bags. They don't have chairs. They have

bean bags. And then uh the founder of the coding camp was like I'm importing a Bitcoin ATM. It's going to be the first

Bitcoin ATM. It's going to be the first in London and all this kind of stuff.

And a few of us like what is this Bitcoin? And he's he's trying to explain

Bitcoin? And he's he's trying to explain what this digital currency is. There was

one finance guy who got it, but the rest of us were very dismissive. I like this is like make believe money. You're like

um one of the guys he went off and he he started mining these things and he came back and like I like I mined three bitcoin today and then the next day you know I mined six and and by the end of

the course I was like so I bought two of these bitcoins just like I didn't have a lot of cash at the time. I was I was running this coffee stuff doing a boot camp and uh not have a lot of income and

I bought these two Bitcoin and it was I think about four years later I was someone going hey do you want to come skiing? We're going and again I it's

skiing? We're going and again I it's like I don't have a lot of cash right now. So and skiing is not as expensive

now. So and skiing is not as expensive as now but it was relatively expensive.

So these Bitcoin were I think about $200 a bitcoin. So I sold my two Bitcoin so I

a bitcoin. So I sold my two Bitcoin so I could go skiing. Now obviously that's a that was a ridiculous >> ski very expensive skiing trip but um

but going back to the the boot camp is we used to sit there and write the syntax and learn the syntax and and learn all the ways of doing it and one day we had an agency downstairs who was

seen as this like a really good product engineering agency. They came in and did

engineering agency. They came in and did what what they call pair programming. So

you you'd both sit at the same screen and one of you would be typing but you'd both be sort of inputting into what that code was and you know they'd come in these guys are experts these guys are

they do this production level for banks and you know they are so so good at this stuff and I'm sitting there as a junior and and they're really good teaching you and like wind on to now that is

essentially what we have now is claw code is like a pair programmer they're doing I guess they're doing 90%

not even 95% of the code writing syntax but all the time we're having this conversation with them in a way that what should we do how should we do it why should we do it this way what the

pros and cons all that that is the that little bit of of product development is where I really get a kick you know I do it for anything if I'm going on Amazon I just don't buy the first set of tennis

balls like I just bought some tennis balls like I have to I have to which is which is the best one, which is the best value, which loses its bounce. Like, and

that in the development world, in the product development world, is so powerful when you've got something like claw next to you. Especially when you give it context and it has context for your codebase and it has context of your

business case and it has context from all the skills that you're putting into it. And it's just that little power

it. And it's just that little power thing. And I'm sitting in my room on my

thing. And I'm sitting in my room on my own with all this context. all these

kind of pair programmers, pair product managers, pair finance controllers.

They're all I've got a whole team of people here and I'm the CEO in the middle. It's just it's it's ridiculous

middle. It's just it's it's ridiculous what you can do, you know?

>> Yeah.

>> Now, the the kicker I think is you mentioned Squarespace and Wix is like I remember one of the first websites I did in London for money was someone said,

"Can you do me a Squarespace website?"

And I hadn't really touched Squarespace, but I thought, hey, like how hard could it be? Went in, did a bit of research,

it be? Went in, did a bit of research, got a Squarespace template. There are

architects, I think, at the time. Found

them like three or four templates, got them to choose one, populated it, bang, paid me the money, off you go. I just

did something that they couldn't do, and I was the technical guy. And more

recently, obviously, Web Flow have become bigger. So, people are coming to

become bigger. So, people are coming to you now, not to build you a website, but to build them a web flow website. And I

think as we move into this new world of you know going back to building solutions a lot of us try to chat about it in WhatsApp. It's like where do the leads come from? How do you get into

businesses as a freelancer or a studio or an agency? How do you get into businesses and pitch your solutions?

Because there's no one coming to you. No

one's coming to to Matt in the middle of Ireland going can you build me a website? They you know everyone is still

website? They you know everyone is still going can you build me a web flow website? And that's because Web Flow

website? And that's because Web Flow have a name. They they do all their marketing. There's a lot of, you know,

marketing. There's a lot of, you know, fluff around the benefits and, you know, I've been on a few enterprise calls where I'm like having to bite my hand going, "What you're saying is not actually strictly true. You can't

actually do this, but you can understand, you know, the sales patter stuff." So, it's just a really

stuff." So, it's just a really interesting time. And I think that's

interesting time. And I think that's there's a few of us who are almost like, you know, you had Luke Luke's on Luke's on one of our WhatsApps. Um, we have Luke and Tim who did SVG import and

Alien and we're on this little WhatsApp and we're constantly saying how which way to go, which way not to go. And you

know, Luke's the Luke's started with Web Flow. He still uses Web Flow. But he's

Flow. He still uses Web Flow. But he's

like, if I'm going to build anything, I'm not using Web Flow. I can't, you know, I'm using Spelkit. I'm using

technology that can move quickly and all that kind of stuff. But when you're a freelancer and you're used to these sort of leads coming in, it keeps you in that web flow ecosystem. Like I'm, you know, like you you you've probably created a

lot of waves in the fact that, you know, member stack is a web flow tool. I know

you're not solely Web Flow, but you're a Web Flow, you know, very popular in the web flow world, >> and you've come along and gone, we're not using Web Flow anymore. We're all

scratching our heads going, gee, this is this is really odd. Like surely,

>> you're not you're not playing the game, you know, you're not playing the the kind of, you know, Web Flow is the best.

you know, you're playing the we're a business, we're going to move where we need to move to. But for a lot of us freelancers at agencies, I think probably a lot of agencies now are going, you know, James at Progulus, you

know, he was like they have to diversify because the skill sets or the capabilities of what all these all these new ways of building are giving us is magical. But we still have this Web Flow

magical. But we still have this Web Flow um we're still in the Web Flow camp, you know, we're still Web Flow developers.

And I think what a lot of us now are going when are Web Flow gonna catch up?

You know, it's it feels like I don't it's really harsh because we're we're their biggest fan and their biggest critic. If you listen to any of our

critic. If you listen to any of our podcast stuff, Alien and I like we we would have big arguments on the podcast of going like I would say they're doing this badly and he would say they're doing amazing and he would say, "Oh,

they're doing this badly." And and so we love we kind of love Web Flow and what they do. the people who will work there

they do. the people who will work there really ambitious. You know, there's

really ambitious. You know, there's some, you know, like Cory had the other day, you know, he's a a massive part of the Web Flow story and a lot of the guys there are doing their best, but it's really hard to see where they're going

right now and how they're going to keep their edge because Claude is just eating stuff for breakfast and it's just it's not going to go away. You know, if I'm,

you know, I'm still there's still a lot of clients where I would go, yeah, web flow is the best for you. like web web flow is perfect for what you need to do, but it's not a it's not cart launch

anymore. It's not it's not the one that

anymore. It's not it's not the one that it's not like Web Flow versus WordPress or Web Flow versus Squarespace. It's not

it's not a little shootout table. It's

like I need to dig down what are you going to use it for? Who's using it? How

often are you changing content? What do

you what what your plans for next year?

And once you have that picture, then you can go oh yeah, actually web flow is all right. for some instances it's like no

right. for some instances it's like no don't don't go starting with web flow because there's so many more opportunities on on this custom side but as soon as you work say custom and take

away this web flow sheen people start getting scared of you know will it break you know is Matt going to be the bottleneck is it you know what happens if you get knocked over by the number 53

bus like so there's there's so much thing going on at the moment it's just a bit of a a head mess up you know >> it is I want to next talk about Web

Flow's AI features, what they're doing and what they're not doing, and also which projects because that's kind of the same thing I'm noticing less and less I would use Web Flow for this. I

want to super quickly because your Bitcoin story was really funny and it reminded me of something that I've never said on camera before. Basically, I

think it was 2010, I don't know, it was when Bitcoin was a dollar, I think, if I'm not wrong. Uh I was like I was born in 2001. So, I am I'm I'm I'm pretty

in 2001. So, I am I'm I'm I'm pretty young. And I had just gotten $300 for my

young. And I had just gotten $300 for my birthday, Canadian dollars. And for

whatever reason, my friends and I, we discovered this thing called Bitcoin.

And we thought it was so cool. None of

us understood what it was, but we were like, "Whoa, internet money. That's so

super cool." So, I go to my parents and I'm like, "Guys, can I use your credit card so that I can, you know, spend my birthday money on Bitcoin?" And they're like, "No." Like, it's going to be the

like, "No." Like, it's going to be the next big thing. I didn't know why. Like,

I didn't know any of this stuff. I just

thought it was cool and I wanted to buy it and they're like no. They thought it was video game money basically like you know like FIFA points like that kind of thing. They refused. I kept begging them

thing. They refused. I kept begging them and eventually I gave up. So I wanted to buy 300 Bitcoin. My father would not let me use his credit card for it. And you

know people ask me and the reason why I love what you said so much is because people are like well imagine if you did that. I'm like buddy you think I'd be

that. I'm like buddy you think I'd be holding on to Bitcoin today? It would

have gone from $1 to $10 and I would have thought I was like you know >> Yeah. Exactly.

>> Yeah. Exactly.

>> Wall Street, I would have sold it all and like bought like a new PlayStation or something and and moved on. So that's

hilarious. You reminded me of that. And

yeah, on the topic of Web Flow right now, so again, I like one year ago, I was using Web Flow for virtually anything. Any sites, obviously, web apps

anything. Any sites, obviously, web apps I was building either with like Web Flow Memberstack Make or Web Flow Member Stack Wiz. And the thing is Web Flow is

Stack Wiz. And the thing is Web Flow is never made for web apps. You could

absolutely build web apps with web flow, especially with some of these other tools in combination, but like it was never made for web apps. And so once cursor and then cloud code came around,

it seemed like, you know, the perfect web flow replacement for for web apps.

But I don't think that web flow had any, you know, concerns about that because they were never trying to make a product for web apps. And so it's all good. All

good. And at that point in time, let's say like mid last year, probably July, August 2025, if you were to ask me, I'd be like, use cloud code to build a web app. Use web flow to build a marketing

app. Use web flow to build a marketing site. And that was where I was at and I

site. And that was where I was at and I thought that was the way that things were going to continue to go. Then Opus

4.5 came out and that it was funny. I

first I think there's probably a video on the member stack channel the first time I used it and I'm like, "Yeah, it's okay. It's cool." You know, nothing

okay. It's cool." You know, nothing crazy. But that was because it doesn't

crazy. But that was because it doesn't give you these impressive results right off the bat. It just gets it. Like when

you want to do something, it can just figure it out. And so then I started to get a little bit more ambitious going from like micro SAS to building some much more serious largescale web apps.

And then the member stack site came around. So we're all on our team using

around. So we're all on our team using cloud code more and more and more. The

member stack site is and I said this in the video too. It was a mess. It was

like legacy stuff in the CMS, a billion different class naming conventions, not so much like div block one, two, three, four five six seven eight nine but it was like you'd have client first and then you'd have like web flow template

marketplace conventions. Then you'd have

marketplace conventions. Then you'd have like nothing like just nonsense. So it

was a mess. And I in 2024 went through and like reskinned the website, but I didn't do a full cleanup because that would have taken a very long time. Fast

forward November 2025 and we're like, okay, our site is out of date. We have a lot of stuff we need to update. Oh no,

I'm just thinking about having to go back in because I'm working with cloud code so often. I'm so used to saying do this, it does it. I want to make like large scale content updates. It just

does it. And so whatever. We're like we need to fix up our web flow site. Never

even thought we're going to use claw code for this because again I was like web flow is marketing sites, claw code is web apps. Fine. And apps of any other kind. Then talking to my coworker Molly

kind. Then talking to my coworker Molly and we're like okay what do we actually want? you know, this is going to be a

want? you know, this is going to be a big project. It's going to take a month

big project. It's going to take a month or more to rebuild it in Web Flow. So,

we need buyin from the rest of the team.

Let's kind of scratch out like a prototype of what we want the new site to look like just so we get buyin from the rest of our team. So, we're talking about it. We did it. And at the end of

about it. We did it. And at the end of the day, we have this like homepage which looks so much better than our Web Flow homepage that we had. Again, not

necessarily because of Web Flow versus the stack we're using. It's just it looked better. at the end of the day, we

looked better. at the end of the day, we got a better product out of it. And then

we're talking and we're like, "Okay, now we need to sell the rest of the team on rebuilding our Web Flow site." And then I don't know if it was her or me, one of us were like, "But why would we rebuild it? We already have it. It works." You

it? We already have it. It works." You

know, it's not like my from back in the day. Like this is not a prototype. This

day. Like this is not a prototype. This

is production code. So we're talking about it and we're like, you know, we have this preconceived notion of like, "No, no, you don't build marketing sites with cloud code." So we're like, "Why

not though?" trying to come up with

not though?" trying to come up with reasons like oh but the CMS like yeah but there's a lot of headless CMSs that we can hook up and still have a CMS uh design control well I mean you can do

anything you want in cloud code you want it to be one pixel less you can either edit the code yourself or tell cloud to make it one pixel less so we're just like spitballing trying to come up with

a reason not to do that we couldn't come up with one and so I'm like okay how about this I'm going to rebuild it and just start we're not even going to tell the rest of the team I'm going to start rebuilding it. And then I was thinking,

rebuilding it. And then I was thinking, I'm like, in a couple hours or a couple days, something's going to happen that's going to teach me like bad idea. Don't

do that. There's a reason Web Flow for marketing sites, cloud code for other stuff. But it didn't happen. So, I built

stuff. But it didn't happen. So, I built out all the static pages, started with the CMS, migrated the CMS, and then the whole site was done. And I'm like, "Oh, we have a way better site right now.

Kind of developed in less time than it took me to rebuild the homepage last year." We're like, "Oh, geez." Okay. And

year." We're like, "Oh, geez." Okay. And

we love Web Flow at Member Stack. So

we're like leaving Web Flow? No way. We

But at the same time, like look at look at the benefits. Look what we have. Look

how much better the site looks, how much better it performs, and more importantly, how easy it is to ship new updates. So like I've done, you know, I

updates. So like I've done, you know, I had an agency. I did a lot of like Web Flow sales calls. basically both I've been on like web flow enterprise sales calls with the web flow team and also

just you know me selling clients on on web flow who traditionally use WordPress or something like that and the whole cell is like we're going to set this up for you and you're going to be able to make updates to your site quickly.

That's the thing. And so now we're looking at this site and we're like, we were sitting there taking way too long to update our Web Flow site because it takes comparatively a long time. And now

we're able to whip up like beautiful new landing pages in like one or two hours.

So at that point, I'm looking and I'm thinking, okay, I've been saying Web Flow's for marketing websites this whole time and Cloud Code isn't. I don't think

I agree with that statement anymore. And

so the question left is where does that leave web flow? And first thing I want to say is not everyone's me. Not

everyone's you. You know, some people they just straight up prefer it. They

don't want to build a marketing site with quad code. That's fine. Maybe

that's not going to last forever. But if

you ask me at this point in time, I have not started a new Web Flow project in a little while at this point. I just can't I haven't had any reason to. Everything

I've done has been in cloud code. But if

you were to ask me when would you still start a web flow project it would be like you know you have a company which is very artistic for example web flow agencies or any web development agencies

you want insane animations like a real storytelling website I don't really know how easy that would be to communicate to cloud code so for something like that I

would maybe still do it in web flow but it's like would I these days what do you still besides obviously client says I want web flow So you're going to do it in web flow or the site's already in web

flow new builds. When would you and when would you not use web flow now at this point in time?

>> Good question. So so the way I would normally frame it especially especially now you talking about you know there's some some other option is going who are the stakeholders for this website

essentially you know you've got the users let's say they're they're going to be the same regardless. Then you have the maybe the the person who wants to

change things like optimize things and you know that maybe they're the let's call them the product manager of the website. They're not maybe a product

website. They're not maybe a product manager. They may be the CEO. They may

manager. They may be the CEO. They may

be the marketing director what whatever it might be but they want to go we want to do this and we want to do this and in six months time we want to do this and and then you've got the dayto-day or it in some instances it might be week to

week. You know it might they're not in

week. You know it might they're not in it every day but they're week to week.

And once you got that mapped out and this is typical is wind back six months maybe a year the the build mode in web flow was the thing you know everyone was

talking about build mode because at the end of the day it started to divide a little bit and flow started putting a lot of focus on marketing teams you know with the platform for marketing teams

they got you know optimizely is it not optimize optimized then they got you know they got some of that intelligent stuff the analytics all that kind of stuff started coming into the into the

web flow stack and you could kind of say brilliant this is a marketing team's platform as a developer stroke designer I would say more of the developer side

is we're there to make a system on top of web flow like just a layer a UI layer that allows the marketing team to move quickly really quickly they open up the

thing in five minutes they've got a new landing page you know 10 minutes whatever it might be but you know someone has being told, "We're launching this event. Can you create a new landing

this event. Can you create a new landing page for me?" And if you break it down into those little atomic actions, how can we assess those tools against each other? You know, you have a you're an

other? You know, you have a you're an internal team, so you guys are very probably tech tech natives, as you said, like why wouldn't we do this? We can get

in there. You guys are like, you're

in there. You guys are like, you're exploring new boundaries of technology all the time. A lot of clients who use Web Flow, they're not the they're not a tech company. They might be an insurance

tech company. They might be an insurance company. They might be a marketing

company. They might be a marketing company. They might be an events

company. They might be an events company. It it like a recruitment

company. It it like a recruitment company. Their first thing they think

company. Their first thing they think about in the morning is not tech and web flow. Over the last six months, well no,

flow. Over the last six months, well no, probably the last 12 months, Web Flow started to put a lot of investment into components and component features. But

what I found more recently is they're very deventric. So I as a dev can move a

very deventric. So I as a dev can move a lot more quickly around the web flow environment in terms of building pages once I use my component system and

properties and varants and slots and and then you you start to realize when you step back you go there's a lot of complex terms floating around here and

you know what these two clients that I have they really struggle with these terms they they don't know what a slot is. They might nod their head when I

is. They might nod their head when I teach them, you know, for an hour session on a Monday, but when they come to creating a new landing page, they've forgotten what a slot in. They don't

know the rules of the game when you what you can put a slot in. What happens when you put a slot in there? What if you put nested slots variants? How can I change

this? They ask very simple, very I

this? They ask very simple, very I wouldn't call them naive, but just very pragmatic questions of can we change this? Can we change this? And it's up to

this? Can we change this? And it's up to me then as a developer or their their developer partner to go uh we could but as you like we we have to hack around it or it's not really set up that way or I

wish I set it up that way in the first place but we didn't because we have this different use case and and what I've just found is that before we've got to a place now where you really have to dig

down in in what the stakeholders want to do on a daily basis. You almost need to put a little GoPro on their shoulder and follow them around for a week on what they do on their computer and screen

record and go, "Okay, this is what they do. This is what okay, they they say

do. This is what okay, they they say they're going to do it like this, but they don't. They, you know, their CEO

they don't. They, you know, their CEO demands this and they're under pressure and all this kind of stuff." And I'm finding Web Flow at the moment is not

malleable enough on the marketeteers end to to give these people what they want.

They have a component system. They have

a build mode. The build mode is is too complex. I think it's not like

complex. I think it's not like Squarespace. Like we we joke about in

Squarespace. Like we we joke about in our WhatsApp groups. It's like we need Web Flow to be Squarespace on the front end for for marketers. They need to be

able to drag and drop. They can only put it in certain areas. It's so simple.

They can build a landing page and then you go, "Oh, there's AI coming in. What

if I could type in, can you build me a landing page for events? Go. And all it did was take the components in the in your library of components and it put them into a landing page and it

populated the content and it allowed them to go and change it. You're like,

web flow AI, perfect match. It's

brilliant. I just have to build the system. the AI makes sense of it and the

system. the AI makes sense of it and the marketeers can just, you know, oh, can you change the color of this to red or blue or, you know, and they don't have to worry about what variant is or the

name of the variant or the name of the prop or the folder that the props in or the slot or all this kind of stuff. But

you can move to claw code and or any any AI like let's call it custom builds. You

lose all of that web flow ecosystem, but you can build something specifically for those stakeholders. You know, you can

those stakeholders. You know, you can you can say, do you know what? I'm going

to I'm going to put a headless CMS on the top of it or I'm going to use Air Table because that's what you use in the rest of your business or whatever it might be and there's no barriers.

There's no like can it be done or is this the best way to do it? It's like

we're just going to do it. Like I I was I was trying it with a recruitment company the other day and they use a CRM like a it's called Bullhorn and we had

to integrate with it. It was I was you trying to use make could make didn't have a an integration then what's the other one N8 is it N8

>> yeah trying to use they didn't have it Zapia got discontinued years ago because it didn't get supported by the the Bullhorn team. So within 10 minutes, we

Bullhorn team. So within 10 minutes, we had an integration, a middleware integration hosted on on Cloudflare

workers with a chron job working between the web flow CMS and Bullhorn. And you

start to go, this is brilliant. We're

building solutions really quickly for problems that these businesses, no one else in the world will need this. Well,

lots of people will, but they don't have to need it. someone doesn't have to build an app for this or a plugin or I just did it. Boom. And before you know it, you start to go, why don't why isn't

not every project like this, you know?

So, I think we're in a place now and it's a weird place because I know Web Flow are developing their AI capabilities or integrations, let's call it. They're in a bit of a weird space at

it. They're in a bit of a weird space at the moment where they're marketing to new customers. You know, their AI site

new customers. You know, their AI site builder is very, let's call it basic. is

they're putting a lot of a lot of mixed messages out. Let's say if I if I was

messages out. Let's say if I if I was going to be harsh about it, is they want the new people who don't know how to build websites, but in the background they're building some really cool little

features around components and code components and web flow cloud and they're supporting Nex.js and Astro and there's lots of stuff going on, but it

all feels just a little bit all over the place. sometimes three or five four

place. sometimes three or five four months behind the game which is expected because core code come out next week and they'll have a new model and a new a new platform feature and a new so it's

moving so quickly you can't you can't expect someone like web flow or framer or Adobe or to keep up this stuff but we're I think they're in a very

dangerous place in that if they don't start thinking a little bit more about the individual stakeholders web flow could become Um I wouldn't say

irrelevant but for people like me you a lot of my peers the answers when someone a client comes we want to do this we want to build a website or it's got a

website with a bit of an app or it's an app or it's just a brochure site or whatever web flow becomes just run-of-the-mill part of the conversation

further down the line but the first place we go is custom build and the cost of it, the time, the options, the, you

know, it's a pure Lego block play.

Whereas Web Flow is becoming a little bit more feels like a closed Lego. Not

well, it is Lego, but maybe more like Duplo, you know, the younger people's Lego where there's less blocks and they're easier to put together, but once you've built the train, you can't build a car out of that set, you know? It's

that >> I don't know. It's it's such like things are being kicked up in the air. so much

that I'm not sure where it's going and I'm not sure where Web Flow's edge is.

Like the community around Web Flow in my opinion was used to be thriving. It used

to be it used to be on fire. I thought

it was just such a warm It was just there was stuff going on all of the time. It was very very organic as well.

time. It was very very organic as well.

More recently, it just felt very quiet, very subdued, very people are got their heads elsewhere, you know, like it's just it's just an interesting time. Yes.

I I don't know. I I'm hoping like I have a lot of love for Web Flow and what it's done for me personally, what the system is. I just hope they kind of I don't

is. I just hope they kind of I don't know embrace the new age. It is a new age. I think embrace the new age a

age. I think embrace the new age a little bit more aggressively, I suppose, because it will give us more more to hang our hat on. You know, it's like we are still Web Flow devs. We still we still get leads like build me a Web Flow

site. The more instances we are like

site. The more instances we are like maybe it's not the right thing for you.

more of those those conversations are happening more and more around the world on Zoom calls with clients. They've got

to nip that in the bud somehow.

Otherwise, they you know those little two-page, three-page, 10page websites that might balloon into really big customers are not going to exist in a

while. You know, the um to one on radio,

while. You know, the um to one on radio, the the facility rate of web flow is is is declining.

That is such a good way to put it. So I

think actually very similar to fertility rate something that a lot of people you know you'll see stuff on on X on even like the web flow expert Slack where people are like whoa whoa is web flow

dying is web flow dying no I think you could say that web flow is dying in the same way that you could say Italy or South Korea is dying in the same way

they're thriving. They exist. A lot of

they're thriving. They exist. A lot of things are going well, but at the same time, you can see that these I don't I don't obviously know their new site numbers, but I imagine they would be

dropping or at least far less than they otherwise would have been. And I think everything you said I a lot of these videos, a lot of these conversations that I have, I really have them hoping

the Web Flow team is watching because like you said, I I love the community.

everything that the community has done for me, everything that I've done for the community. I have met some amazing

the community. I have met some amazing people, friends that I have. I very

rarely meet someone in the Web Flow community who I don't like. And I love that there's events popping up. I love

going to them. I love talking to people.

I love meeting people. But I also kind of feel that more and more a lot of the people who I talk to, especially the early Web Flow community advocates, are talking less and less and less about Web

Flow. And you know, I I try to repeat

Flow. And you know, I I try to repeat this as much as I can for anyone.

Similar to what I just said about South Korea and Italy, what you said about fertility rates, like no, Italy and South Korea are not going anywhere. Web

Flow is not going anywhere. Even if they don't solve this problem, you know, Web Flow is still going to be around and you're still going to be able to make money using Web Flow in 10 years, even if Web Flow does nothing. However,

they're a big company with a lot of people and they need to adapt. And I

think what you were saying is very true.

They are confused. I don't think they know who they're going after at this point in time because absolutely look when when you have this person you know maybe five six years ago web flow it was

like hey you want to learn how to build a website and get something up for your company use web flow even then it was still more like Wix and Squarespace that was the target market those people at this point in time they're not going to

learn what a div block is they're going to go to lovable or bolt or something like that and just say I want a website for this boom call call it a day. I made

in like 40 minutes a new personal website for myself today using Claude Code. I use Claude Code. These this

Code. I use Claude Code. These this

beginner group of people, they're not going to use Web Flow. They're not going to use Claude Code. They're going to use maybe Wix, maybe Squarespace, maybe Lovable, that sort of thing. And then

you have your, let's say, power users, your your power builders. I don't know what to call them. Basically, people

like you and I. Just we do this for a living. We do this professionally and

living. We do this professionally and we're going to use whatever gets the job done quickly and easily. And this is the group of people who I see more and more leaving Web Flow. Is that a problem for

Web Flow as a company? Perhaps, maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I would think it is.

But like that's the thing. They don't

have a clearly defined target market for this new new time. And if anyone at Webflow is watching this, I think what you described in terms of the the

marketing team, Web Flow's been heading in an enterprise direction for a little while now. Everyone's well aware of

while now. Everyone's well aware of that. I think that might be a really

that. I think that might be a really good spot for them to just thinking of you know if I worked at web flow for web flow to double down where what would happen is you would build components you

as the builder the developer and then after that all of these components would be like in their own library and then you can prompt claude to make me a

landing page for this and it would use those predefined components in the way that the developer said to do whatever it is that the client once I saw that and I was thinking wow this for marketing teams this sort of thing I

know he's just tinkering around with it you know I don't like he's making it for for them internally but I'm looking I'm thinking that and also hearing what you just said that I think is what web flow

might that's where their bread and butter might be is like we're going to make it complicated and powerful for you as the developer to build these systems

for your clients and then your clients are going to use it in let's say a very like AI native way that uses your predefined stuff basically. I think that

could be a really good direction for them to head in because yeah, right now I feel like they're kind of just spraying in all directions and waiting to see what sticks.

>> Yeah. And I I think yeah the I haven't worked in a company so big as Web Flow, you know, and they're obviously they got their finger on the pulse. We you hope they got their finger on the pulse, you know. Sometimes I felt that they're they

know. Sometimes I felt that they're they are American. West Coast ccentric, you

are American. West Coast ccentric, you know, they're in a a relative I know what it's like to be in a bubble in London where, you know, you don't really know what else is going out in the world and maybe there's a little bit of a

bubble of, you know, the way they're building it or the way that people use it and enterprise is dominating. But I

think if you look at someone like Relu, they're I wouldn't say they're Canary in the gold mine, but maybe you could say they're a canary in the gold mine is they they're moving to B2 and they're

being very purposeful and they'd be very transparent about they're building something that is going to help. It was

almost like we don't care what platform or what what fancy animations. We want a website or web presence that delivers for your business. You know, that's kind of what Dan is coming out with on on

LinkedIn. And it's if you look at Reloom

LinkedIn. And it's if you look at Reloom and we go, imagine Reloom, but was in Web Flow and and you had an AI assistant

that could literally build a page just using the your favorites from Reu, you know.

>> Yeah.

>> And it had your variables attached to it. So, it's got your design system. It

it. So, it's got your design system. It

had your assets ready to go. It put in the assets. It had your tone of voice.

the assets. It had your tone of voice.

you add your brand bible, you know, as context. Before you know, you go, Web

context. Before you know, you go, Web Flow has a has a has a moat. It's people

are still going there because it has the servers, the all the all the the nitty-gritty stuff that really we don't want to have to deal with. You know, as

much as Vel is is easy to use and Netlifi is, it's still messy nittygritty stuff that you don't really want to have to deal with. you know, the GitHubs of this world. Everyone uses them in

this world. Everyone uses them in developer world for version control, but there's ways web flow could abstract that a little bit. You know, those that's where they're good at. They're

abstracting the HTML, JavaScript, and CSS into a nice easy to use front. And I

still think there's an opportunity there for them to be the front end builder of choice or the front end. Maybe it's not even the the front end builder, but the

word building, you know, build mode and designer and it all gets conflated into I'm building. Oh, you're building, but

I'm building. Oh, you're building, but you can't do this and I'm create I'm a designer, but I I'm not a designer, I'm a developer, you know, so there's lots of semantic stuff going on. But at the end of the day, I think still think

there's a massive opportunity for that screen every day of the week to be that I work in that my marketing team works in or my marketing client works in to be

owned by web flows, web flow tools, web flow interfaces.

They just need to be a bit I don't Yeah, maybe a little bit less scatter gun about it. It feels like they've got, you

about it. It feels like they've got, you know, floor one in in San Fran HQ is the let's get new users on board. And then

floor two is we're doing really cool stuff for the developers. And then floor three is the university education team, but they've lost half their staff a couple of years ago and it's not really

like because it's moving so quick, they create stuff on Wednesday and by by Saturday it's out of date kind of. and

it just feels like they're a little bit disjointed and and maybe they do step back and go, "What does that look like?"

When I'm opening up a blog post, YouTube stuff on where I'm coming from, I'm seeing AI site builder. Yeah, but it it doesn't even have components in it. Like

it doesn't even give me any components out the box. Like the agen, the variables aren't synced. So if I change my primary color from red to yellow on

my in my designer that doesn't sync to my app gen code base there stuff that I think about from a developer and I like we talk about that we know that language but from a marketer's point of view

that's going to be the same problem.

It's like I just changed it to yellow but why isn't it changing here that the promise was it's all unified design system. So, it's all those little things

system. So, it's all those little things there that just feel like yeah, they're all shooting in different directions a bit and the the world is becoming a little bit more singular focused. If we

look at if we even when you look at what I've done in the last couple of months, I've like if I want a recipe app for my household, I take into account all the

things that my household does. I'm not

interviewing you. I'm not interviewing Luke or Corey on how they do their grocery shopping or how they've got three kids. We've only got two, their

three kids. We've only got two, their ages. I'm going what are my needs? And

ages. I'm going what are my needs? And

I'm building an app in Claude Code and pushing it to a Netify account. Boom.

It's on my wife's phone. She can she can put in recipes if you like. I can put in recipes. We've got like a Tinder recipe

recipes. We've got like a Tinder recipe app. It's like, "Oh, I really like

app. It's like, "Oh, I really like that." And before you know it, you got a

that." And before you know it, you got a shopping list out of it. No one else is using it. I'm not making any money out

using it. I'm not making any money out of it. It's just it just it just works.

of it. It's just it just it just works.

And I feel like I can live I can forget about that now. And I think Web Flow need to almost move into that world where just focus on being the best

front-end development platform with a marketing portal almost like the legacy editor did. It's like the legacy editor, you

did. It's like the legacy editor, you know, rest in peace legacy editor soon.

But the fact that it was a different experience almost suggested that they were thinking about a different user and that I think

is a real net positive. you know, we don't have to have the same interface for every single user. And as soon as that kind of got retired, I suppose, or said, look, you're going out to pasture

next year, the designer has become full of these like it's got to cope with developers experience and it's got to cope with the marketers experience. And

they just come up with this, I wouldn't say Frankenstein because that's a that's a horrible way to say it, but it's they've come up with something that's trying to be everything to everyone. And

now AI's come along and it's like how do we how do we shoehorn this in to these experiences instead of being all right let's create a brand new developer platform and maybe they are I'm hoping

they are hoping they're having like you know a whole IDE platform powered by AI that's just for developers to go in and then they might have a a GSA kind of

platform that is all for the animators so you know the guys up OSMO who you know obviously And those kind of guys who who maybe are less functionally led

and more visually led in terms of what their clients want, they're in that platform and then the marketers are in another platform and it's and just being very purposeful about the the platform,

you know, and I I think it's just they need to be doing this. they they can they can move you know I know they've got infrastructure and but they just don't want to be in the like we don't look back in two years time and go like

we do with the banks these days like banks in Ireland cannot move quick enough because they have legacy systems you know >> it's the same in the UK you have monzo and you have stings and they've just

popped up and their market cap has gone through the roof because they've had a clean slate to work with in terms of technology and HSBC and Barkley's going yeah but we can't move quick enough because our platform is built on XY Z

technology and it would take us 5 years to rip that up. And so you almost I don't know you almost want them to to feel that startup energy in in what

we're in the new world and start building with individual stakeholders in mind rather than thinking of this just it's a web flow platform that is just everything to everyone. That's the new

world we're in because we want to be able to move quickly. Like there's a claw connector now I think came out yesterday and I'm not even going to connect it up because I read what it can

and can't do and I'm like I can't doesn't really work with components like it can I think it can build components but it can't build in build mode or you

know there's just stuff that I'm like every time it's just not a clawed code exciting launch. I don't know like

exciting launch. I don't know like framer have gone I think framer have gone relatively quiet the last last few months. I don't know what they're doing

months. I don't know what they're doing or what they're hatching or what Figma are hatching in terms of their site builder. You know it's an interesting

builder. You know it's an interesting world and it's it there's lots of people as you said like web flow is not going anywhere. It is not going anywhere. But

anywhere. It is not going anywhere. But

is it the next big thing? I hope it still becomes the next big thing because it's only remember it's only a tiny percentage of websites. You know, if I did a straw poll in Ireland on every

business around here, Web Flow wouldn't be anywhere near on the tip of anyone's tongues. You know, if I went into the

tongues. You know, if I went into the middle of the startup land in in Dublin, maybe people will mention it. Oh, yeah.

I've heard about Web Flow. It's meant,

you know, I But still, they're not HubSpot, um, you know, like Squarespace, Custom Builds, they're still all leading the charge in terms of what people are

using. So, I think Web Flow is easy

using. So, I think Web Flow is easy enough that they don't need to be this legacy, we're a plat established platform. I think they just need to add

platform. I think they just need to add a little bit this sort of new age. I say

new age, it's like I'm old enough to know that things come and go, but it feels like this AI stuff is just fresh, raw energetic

and and Web Flow needs a little bit of that in their approach, maybe. I don't

know. I'm just Yeah, I don't know.

That's kind of um what I think Web Flow felt like to me is it's like this is the future. Okay, not everyone's using Web

future. Okay, not everyone's using Web Flow. Fine. Like you go around ask a

Flow. Fine. Like you go around ask a bunch of businesses like you said, nobody's going to know what it is. But

it's like we're ahead of the curve. We

know what's right and it's We flow. That

is how I absolutely felt a year ago, you know, but as time is going on, I think you're right. I think what they're

you're right. I think what they're trying to do is to be the everything for everyone. But a lot of people they talk

everyone. But a lot of people they talk about, you know, SAS getting cannibalized and like, oh, why even build a SAS anymore when, you know, these big AI labs, anthropic open AI, they're just going to replace everything

and do it all. The thing is, they are the everything for everyone. That that's

what these companies are. If you are trying to compete with them on that, you're it's not going to happen. They

have all the funding, all the users, all the awareness. And when it's as easy as

the awareness. And when it's as easy as sending a text to get anything you want, then you know that's that's what people are going to use. But I think the real

opportunities here come from the fact that these these big AI labs, they can't build, you know, they're building the everything for everyone. So they can't build the platform for developers and

marketers to collaborate. Like they just they're not going to do that. It's it's

highly unlikely. And even if they do it, they're probably not going to be able to do it well. So, I think, you know, I I think Web Flow, at least their marketing messaging is very much pointing towards

like a I don't want to say they don't really see themselves as a competitor. I

don't want to act like they do, but like I feel like they need to kind of throw in the towel when it comes to, you know, trying to convince people to use, let's say, Web Flow instead of lovable or Web Flow instead of clawed

code. I think at this point they just

code. I think at this point they just need to understand what their use case is and lean into that heavily. And I

think exactly what you described is what they should do. Hopefully they know better about what they should do. But

that's the thing, like you said, they have like they they have like 700 employees, you know, they're huge.

They've got money, they've got people, and uh they can absolutely do it. It's

just a question of will they. And I

think they essentially so here's the I love the team at Webflow. I love the leadership at Web Flow. Like I'm not trying to say anything bad about anyone, but Web Flow started with this startup

energy, you know, this rapidly moving product trying to rapidly solve something. And then I think a couple

something. And then I think a couple years back once the leadership really changed from like you know Vlad uh what's Vlad's brother's name? It's

Sergey right?

>> Sergey. Yeah.

>> And Bryant. They kind of they they grew big. You know, they're a multiple

big. You know, they're a multiple billion dollar company. You're no longer like a brand new fresh startup. I think

they started to look at themselves like a corporation, like a big established corporation. And so they don't move as

corporation. And so they don't move as quickly. They don't take as many risks.

quickly. They don't take as many risks.

They have a lot of people. They have

really big teams. But the problem is when you're in this industry which evolves so quickly, you need to be able to evolve rapidly and I think they've got themselves into a position with

their leadership, with their team sizes, more than likely with their technology too where they're stuck and they can't move as fast and they can't test as many new things. But I think that's what they

new things. But I think that's what they absolutely need to do because, you know, and I know we're talking about they shouldn't be spraying things at the wall in all sorts of directions. But I think

they're doing that with marketing.

They're not doing that enough with their product. I think they need to be trying

product. I think they need to be trying a lot of new features, seeing what works, seeing what resonates, and really understanding like I think they need to be able to look at the, you know, the

mi's the use and be like, "Okay, Web Flow is not for you in this case." In

this case, it is for you. Uh, instead of just trying I mean, they pivoted to become the website experience platform.

What does that mean? I don't know, man.

I have no idea what that means, but like too vague. It's too vague. The thing is,

too vague. It's too vague. The thing is, I can build anything that I want with Claude Code that easily. So, they can't compete on being able to build more and faster. They just can't. But when you

faster. They just can't. But when you have these teams, these marketing teams that, like you said, they're not thinking about technology. They could

not be bothered to learn what a branch and a pull request is. None of this stuff. But those people are decision

stuff. But those people are decision makers that make a lot of money and they can, you know, sign off on that hundred $200,000 a year webflow enterprise contract. I think looking at those

contract. I think looking at those people and being like, how do I make this easier for you? And then also to the developers saying, how can I make it

so that you can help your clients with this tool? Um, is that, you know, as

this tool? Um, is that, you know, as sexy to the VCs and and the investment firms that have a stake in Web Flow? I

don't know. But at the end of the day, I think they need to be honest with who they are, what they're becoming, and more importantly, who they're not, and what they aren't becoming. So, I mean, any final thoughts?

>> Yeah.

>> For Web Flow and for Web Flow developers as well, um, who are navigating this?

Because look, you you heard from my story. I have had pivots and I use

story. I have had pivots and I use whatever tool helps me get the job done better. I heard from your story very

better. I heard from your story very much that you've seen a lot of things change and you just use the best tool for the job. So I think for us, especially for you, but also for me,

this feels natural, this evolution to start using and incorporating these tools into our workflow. But you have a lot of people who got introduced to web flow maybe five, six years ago. they've

built a career off it and everything is web flow to them. They learned how to be a web flow developer. It's all they know. You know what what do you think

know. You know what what do you think for those people who web flow is their be all and end all. What are they to do right now? What should they not be

right now? What should they not be doing? What should they be doing?

doing? What should they be doing?

>> I I think I think the advice I would give I' I've had actually a few people on Reddit just message DM me going, you know, I'm I'm struggling to get work or how do you pitch to clients?

And I always say I I I don't really know there's you know I've you get referrals you don't want but the biggest thing I always say is what's the problem you're solving and why are you the solution to

that problem. It doesn't matter if it's

that problem. It doesn't matter if it's a job a job spec if it's a client uh I want to build this website you know a a

job like a scope or or any conversation you're having with a client. It's just

making sure that you think about their problem first and then bringing your skills and your tools to to the party.

And web flow will be one of those tools that needs to be considered. But it it shouldn't be the be all and end all. You

shouldn't be coming with just the web flow present to them. You should be thinking about your knowledge set. You

should be looking at all the technologies and looking at ways that you can add value to that company. And

that's that's going to put anyone in goodstead. It doesn't matter if you're

goodstead. It doesn't matter if you're working internally in a company. I

always like I was working uh what was it was a friend's company but um one of his colleagues and I saying look if you become an expert in this AI part of the

of the of the world you are going to be indispensable to your company because you're going to be able to help every part of the business. finance team, the recruitment team, you you'll be that

little Zapia connection almost to the AI efficiency world. And I think if you're

efficiency world. And I think if you're if you're early in your Web Flow career or you're really established, it's just about realizing that Web Flow is not the

100% solution. And it can be the 90%

100% solution. And it can be the 90% solution. Sometimes it could be the 20%

solution. Sometimes it could be the 20% solution. Some clients are open to that,

solution. Some clients are open to that, some aren't. You know, if it's an

some aren't. You know, if it's an enterprise client coming down the road and going, we want to move from our WordPress to our web flow. Obviously,

you're not going in and going, "Ah, but have you thought about a Nex.js Astro um you know, React spelt island stack?"

Don't, you know, you don't go there because that's they they've come to you with a specific request and go to them with specific solutions. But get inside their head and think like, how is Web

Flow good for them? How is web flow not so good for them? What are the strong points? What are the weak points? And

points? What are the weak points? And

just play it. But always just think about their problem like like jobs to be done is my favorite framework ever is like find out what jobs they're trying

to do whether it's on a an annual six monthly daily basis. Find out who's doing those jobs and then try and empathize with them with the with the proposition that you're coming with. And

Web Flow invariably will will match a lot of those problems to be solved. You

know, Web Flow is still a very capable platform. It's very dynamic. It produces

platform. It's very dynamic. It produces

gorgeous websites, boring websites, blog websites, knowledgebased websites. You

know, as you said, like you layer on setter and member stack websites.

um you know there's lots of different tools have different and it's still really flexible but at the end of the day you just have to be delivering a solution because the what the AI industrial AI revolution is is

delivering is that it's moving the conversation away from not who can do this and who do we need to employ what can we do like what is our what are the

problems that can be solved with AI and that is going to that's just changing the whole mindset of everyone in the in every business right now. It's not it's not oh, we couldn't do like if you're

trying to build a wall at home now. I

was trying to build like we just moved into a new house and there's a massive ugly hedge and we're chopping it down and I'm going right do I put a fence there? Do I put a wall there? We're not

there? Do I put a wall there? We're not

going to put a wall there because it's too hard to build. I I've never built a wall in my life. I went online. I found

that locally there's a a little like tutorial place where I can go for a two-day weekend over thing where I teach you how to build a wall. I can do it now. So, I'm going to build a wall. So,

now. So, I'm going to build a wall. So,

that's my preferable solution, but I'm be able to do it because I can. Whereas

a lot of businesses won't do stuff because they can't do it. But AI now is going, you can anyone can do it. Any

anyone can do it. Anyone can do anything they want as long as they have a a goal.

And that's what you just got to come to the come to the party with and go, what do they want to do? The answer is yes.

Web flow might be part of that solution.

It might be 80% of the 20% a bit of AI, bit of Zapia, a bit of this, bit of that, whatever. But just come with the

that, whatever. But just come with the solution and the value ad rather than just I building web flow because it's web flow. You know, web flow doesn't

web flow. You know, web flow doesn't have that panache. It did it did two years ago. It doesn't anymore. WordPress

years ago. It doesn't anymore. WordPress

used to have that pache. It doesn't

anymore. You know, it's React probably had that pache in the developer world.

It doesn't have it as much anymore. you

know, even though Claude loves it to bits and you know, it never gets it wrong, but you know, you know what I mean. It's just just come with

mean. It's just just come with solutions, come with value, and Web Flow will be part of your tool set. But just

don't um don't think that Web Flow will get you through the door just because you're a Web Flow developer or designer anymore. It's just it's never it's not

anymore. It's just it's never it's not going to not not for the big gigs anyway.

>> I agree with that 100%. Very well said.

Just at the end of the day, I always like liter I think every single conversation of these that I've had, I've mentioned the screwdriver and the drill. Your job is not to hold and turn

drill. Your job is not to hold and turn a screwdriver. Your job is to build a

a screwdriver. Your job is to build a house. And so, if you brand yourself and

house. And so, if you brand yourself and think that, well, I know how to use a screwdriver, so I am inherently valuable to companies. It could be true at a

to companies. It could be true at a point in time when the screwdriver is the biggest thing and everyone's like, who knows how to use this screwdriver?

We need someone who knows how to use the screwdriver. But eventually, similar to

screwdriver. But eventually, similar to Web Flow, the screwdriver is not going anywhere. We have far more advanced

anywhere. We have far more advanced technology. You know, you probably have

technology. You know, you probably have a drill in your home. I have one, too.

And yet, I still have a screwdriver.

It's still there for me, and I still use that screwdriver when it's time comes.

But I'm not going to, you know, I don't work in trades, but let's say I did work in trades. I'm not going to go to a job

in trades. I'm not going to go to a job interview and be like, I'm the screwdriver guy. Be like, okay, we're,

screwdriver guy. Be like, okay, we're, you know, we're a like home development company. you know, what do you bring to?

company. you know, what do you bring to?

Well, I know how to use a screwdriver. I

think it is similarly as ridiculous at this point in time. Two years ago, like you said, I genuinely think anyone learn how to use Web Flow, you'll make money.

I don't think that's the case anymore, especially just because of how many people have learned it because that was true. I think now it is closer to being

true. I think now it is closer to being the screwdriver where it's just one of your tools. When it's the right time to

your tools. When it's the right time to use it, it's the right time to use it.

But you, you know, things change. We all

go through changes in our career. We all

need to adapt. And if you call yourself the screwdriver guy, you need to essentially die and be reborn. So the

best thing to do is to be the like be the solution guy. Say, you know, for me, for example, it's really like you have an idea, you want it built, I can build

it faster than anyone. Whether that is using web flow or Wix or Squarespace, I haven't used those platforms in a very long time. Um or whether I build it with

long time. Um or whether I build it with cloud code, that's it. So when the next tool comes around to me, it is a natural adaptation in my life and in my career.

And I don't need to fully rebrand and reinvent myself. So I think anyone

reinvent myself. So I think anyone watching this who solely brands themselves as a web flow person I think that not because web flow is going anywhere just because it was

wrong to begin with to brand yourself as a web flow person. It worked in the like period of time like you said but I think

at this point in time really we need to understand like that was the wrong move.

We should have just been I'm the this guy and I use Web Flow and never tried to be I'm the Web Flow guy. And I'm

totally guilty of that as well. And I

have your website over and it says award-winning Web Flow on the first line.

>> Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Like we all do that to some extent, but you know, I think some people are having a really hard time adapting, whereas you know, for me, it's something that's on my mind and I'm slowly, you know,

changing myself to adapt. I think you're in the same boat. And I think some people are like actually just I think when you see people who are like super

let's say anti-AI feel like it's a fear in them because they've fully built themselves around this one tool and they feel that if it slows down they will slow down too. And

that's kind of how I feel for those people. So

people. So >> yeah, >> it's No, you're right. You It's a fear.

It is a fear and it's it's a valid fear and I I think it's it's something I've been wrestling with a lot and talking to a lot of people about is that identity you know like it's still on my website

you know and I you know I I was lucky enough I got an award as part of a team in in 8020 as you know technical award winner and you know you you cling on to these things because they're all

validations that you're good at what you do and therefore people employ you and and you know the marketing stuff that I don't know like Web Flow are putting big big pushes at the moment with with

different YouTube ads and Super Bowl ads or Super Bowl alternative ads or whatever they call them. Spend loads of money. It's like you want to be on the

money. It's like you want to be on the coattails of these companies, but you've just Yeah, as you said, you've got to be more than the screwdriver guy. We had it

like our boiler broke down the other day. Okay. And we're in the country and

day. Okay. And we're in the country and we like we haven't got any heat. So, we

putting on our little wood burner stoves and the plumber came around and he was like, "Okay, don't worry. I'll I'll have a look at it." And I was already researching new boilers. How much is it going to cost? Like moving money around,

you know, maybe we're not going to be going on a summer holiday this year because we got to buy a new boiler. Like

all these panic stations, you know. And

the guy came up 3 minutes later, the plumber, and he goes, "You just run out of oil." Like, "What do you mean we've

of oil." Like, "What do you mean we've run out of oil?" "Yeah, you just run out of oil. You just need to fill your oil

of oil. You just need to fill your oil tank up and the and it will start going again. If I had got a boiler guy around

again. If I had got a boiler guy around to fix my boiler and he was just the boiler guy, he like it may be a simplistic example, but he wouldn't have

given me that answer. He wouldn't have given me the fact that I run out of fuel. He would have just said, "Yeah,

fuel. He would have just said, "Yeah, it's yeah, you need a new boiler." You

know, and a lot of people in big cities do that. That's that's their game, isn't

do that. That's that's their game, isn't it? You you need a new website. You need

it? You you need a new website. You need

to do this. You know, you need to but you need that plumber now will be anything that happens regardless of what it is in the house will get a call because he's a solutions guy.

>> Yeah.

>> Like we're struggling to pay him now. We

don't like how much do we pay him. All

he did was look and told us the oil's gone. We want to, you know, we were

gone. We want to, you know, we were expecting that a 500 quid bill. Do we

give him 100 quid, 200 quid? like do we get him to come in and service our boiler because we owe him some you know the fact that he there's lots of like dynamic but we owe him now because he's

a solutions guy not a plumber uh a boiler guy and that's yeah it's exactly the mindset that everyone needs to take but still put on your website that you

do boilers that you do radiators that you do sinks that you still have to get on the coattails you know I I'm still debating whether I say I'm a product

engineer or an AI engineer or an front end of like I don't know what we are anymore like I don't know you know I don't know who why people are coming to me because they used to come to web flow

websites and if I remove web flow does that mean I'm now in the biggest bigger pot of front-end website builders and or

am I do I pitch myself locally as the IT guy because the IT IT guys over here build websites because you they fix phones and they fix like internet, you

know, just it's such a it's so hard to actually nail that down. So, in the same way that we've said web flow need to look at their stakeholders and probably pitch different almost facilities to

different stakeholders.

I think as individuals whether it's you're a freelance or a studio or an agency you need to do the same thing.

You can have four websites. I can have Mayo's best web website builder and I might get loads of leads for the local bakery and the local coffee shop and the

you know the but also I might be like Ireland's premium AI product engineer and I'm getting loads of startups from Dublin or I might be Web Flow's

award-winning developer and I get New York companies contacting me because the euro is better than the dollar right now or you know it's just Yeah, it's not easy, is it? It's not straightforward and it's not easy. But yeah, it's

exciting.

>> It's not. We We all need to adapt. I

mean, it's it's very true. Like, I sit here and I had this conversation with you. I've had this conversation with

you. I've had this conversation with with other people about Web Flow and talking about, you know, Web Flow doesn't know the direction they're heading in and all this stuff. But, hey,

let's take a step back here and say, neither do I. You know, I don't know what my job title is. I don't know what I do. I tried to describe it to you.

I do. I tried to describe it to you.

It's a horrible elevator pitch. like

we're all trying to figure this out. And

so to anyone watching this who is in that position, who's really latched on to Web Flow and at this point you're kind of wondering the viability of that.

We're all confused, buddy. All of us.

>> So Matt, this has been excellent. I

really hope and think this is going to help a lot of people wondering because, you know, we're we're having these issues. Imagine the issues that that

issues. Imagine the issues that that they're having. people who have

they're having. people who have wholeheartedly latch on to Web Flow and see it as the future. You know, I don't know what to tell these these beginners because I don't even know what to tell

myself. So, I hope some of them watching

myself. So, I hope some of them watching this are at least going to feel a little bit better about that.

>> Hopefully. Yeah. And like you're all Yeah. As you say, we're all in the same

Yeah. As you say, we're all in the same boat. And just make sure you just talk

boat. And just make sure you just talk to people. That's the best thing. Like I

to people. That's the best thing. Like I

have WhatsApp groups, Slack groups, I'm on Reddit, I'm on the community. I just

you just get what you can out of it. Ask

people questions. Just surface your doubts, your anxieties, your like because as I say, we're all in the same boat and the more we can help each other because at the end of the day, everyone, as you said, everyone is very warm and

friendly and constructive in the Web Flow community anyway. Um,

>> and I don't think that really changes in the AI world. Maybe you get a few more idiots, but you know, >> I'll get a couple of them, but we're all that sometime. So,

that sometime. So, >> Exactly. Yeah.

>> Exactly. Yeah.

>> Thank you so much.

>> No, but thanks for having me. It's been

nice to nice to chat.