Why you don’t have to forgive | The Gray Area

What's up? I'm Sean, host of The Gray Area. For the show this week, I'm talking to the philosopher Maisha Cherry. She wrote a really interesting book not too long ago called The Failures of Forgiveness. We talk about

that. We talk about why forgiveness is a complicated virtue and how sometimes in

that. We talk about why forgiveness is a complicated virtue and how sometimes in our obsession with forgiveness and pushing people to forgive all the time,

we tend to overlook the moral necessity of anger. It's a great book. It's a great conversation. She's fantastic. I enjoyed it. You will, too. Check it out. And

conversation. She's fantastic. I enjoyed it. You will, too. Check it out. And

I'll see you next week. Maisha Cherry, welcome to the show. >> Thank you so much for having me.

>> I think it's fair to say that our culture treats forgiveness like an inherently virtuous thing, right? It is good to forgive people. Forgiving people is what

good people do. You're not anti-forgiveness. It's not an anti-forgiveness book, but you do say that we live in a culture that idolizes forgiveness. I just want to start there.

What do you mean when you say that we idolize forgiveness? >> Yeah. To idolize forgiveness is to perceive it as something that can solve all of our problems. I call it kind of

magical thinking about about forgiveness. I think it's unique particularly for our particular culture. American culture, we love happy endings.

I hate investing time in a novel in which it doesn't end right, you know, end on a happy happy note. I don't like watching sad movies. So, even I kind of fall victim to that notion that I like I like happy endings. And it seems like

forgiveness is the thing um that can get us there. And not only it is it the thing that our culture idolizes so much that it is capital the thing, it is the thing that's going to get us reconciliation. It is the thing that's

going to get us repair. So much so that if you don't forgive, people think that you are anti- reconciliation. You are anti- uh repair. So that's what I mean by idolizing forgiveness. I think to idolize forgiveness in some ways is also

to idolize uh victims, those who have been wronged. And it suggests that only they can basically solve our problems or they have a role in repairing our world.

And I want to suggest that when we no longer idolize forgivers and forgiveness, we can therefore take our rightful place and do what we need to do to bring about a more just, a more fair, a more reputable world. >> What can't it do?

>> Depends on the context. Um, I think in general it can't change the past. >> Y,

>> I think the past has an afterlife. And this goes again about happy ending. um

that when wrongdoing occurs and this is kind of a sad thing about the reality is that we may change but the past doesn't necessarily change and I think when we idolize forgiveness we have a tendency to think that all a person has to do is

forgive and all is forgiven and what we think about that all is forgiven that all is made right all is made whole but the reality is is that the past has an

afterlife so it can't redo the past I think it has some potential to kind of remake a future but not always, right? Um, you can try to forgive someone so much and try to restore the relationship back together and then you realize that things just can't be what

it once was. And I want to suggest that that's not a bad thing. That's not to suggest that, you know, we shouldn't recommend forgiveness. Um, but life is hard.

>> Um, we can't, you know, redo uh the past. We have to make the future as best we can. And sometimes that entails not so much happy endings on our part.

we can. And sometimes that entails not so much happy endings on our part.

>> The example you open the book with is the Charleston church shooting um that occurred in in 2015. So it may be good to remind people what happened there.

But what was revealing about that moment to you? Why was that a case study for you about forgiveness and how we relate to it? How we celebrate it? how we perceive it.

>> Yeah. I one of the things that I witnessed, I mean, it was horrific situation in which Dylan Roof went into a church that welcomed him and killed nine individuals.

What was fascinating about about that particular case, no matter who you are, is that when uh Dylan was arrested and went before the court, family members were there, family members of the victims. And one of the things that I

think kind of shocked reporters and shocked all of us as a nation is that when the judge asked if any of them had anything to say, a lot of them reported um that they were going to try to forgive or if they hadn't already

forgiven the perpetrator. And so there were time magazines, there were headlines of people kind of fascinated by that forgiveness. So here was my my

problem um with the way in which we interpret it. It seemed as if forgiveness became the headline and no longer the hatred or the atrocity that that took place.

What was also problematic for me is that there seemed to be kind of a normative argument within those headlines as to suggest if those individuals could forgive something that was so horrific then what is our excuse right? So they

became kind of like a prime example or a prime or moral exemplar of what not only what we can do but what we should be doing in our particular lives. And I

think for me what was problematic about that is that you know I'm not to say that family members can't forgive. I don't want to patrol or police anyone's forgiveness. I'm more fascinated about how we conceive of forgiveness. And what

forgiveness. I'm more fascinated about how we conceive of forgiveness. And what

I found fascinating by that particular case is that we seem so intrigued, so inspired by this tool, this moral tool called forgiveness so much that we no longer paid attention to what happened. And I think that idolization

of idolizing or idealizing forgiveness and forgivers, then what it entails is that we think that because they forgave, they no longer need to heal themselves.

Because they forgave, the community doesn't have to do anything about white supremacy.

Because they forgave, we can continue to go on as if nothing, you know, atrocious like that happened in our particular nation. So, it kind of relieves us of our own responsibility. Right? That's that magical thinking about forgiveness.

Um, it also has a tendency to suggest that it was so easy for them to do it, right? They did it so easily. Um, and and as it suggests that the atrocity

right? They did it so easily. Um, and and as it suggests that the atrocity that happened wasn't that harmful for them. So it was these ideas whether they were implicit explicit about the forgivers and also about forgiveness

that I found extremely extremely problematic. Now here's the interesting thing that it wasn't just um the Dylan roof shooting during this particular time span in you know kind of leading up to that situation. Um there were these

uh high-profile cases of police violence among black folks and what we had was press conferences of their family members and what we found was that reporters in almost all of the high-profile cases if you look um at the archive is that reporters always ask the

question it seems to be kind of this ritual happened and the question was as follows. Can you find it in your heart to forgive? So it was this obsession

follows. Can you find it in your heart to forgive? So it was this obsession about why are you introducing forgiveness before the bodies are buried, right? And it had me thinking that, oh wow, so they really think that

buried, right? And it had me thinking that, oh wow, so they really think that forgiveness can really solve this problem. And so I wanted to dive deep into why they think this is the case and what we need to do differently.

>> Well, there is a a religious view >> of forgiveness as an act of grace, right? And this is what we saw in the victims in Charleston, right? Who were Christians. Now,

right? And this is what we saw in the victims in Charleston, right? Who were Christians. Now,

I don't know that I'm capable or Yeah, I do. I I'm I'm almost certainly not capable of that kind of grace, but I do admit to, as you were just saying, being amazed by it. And, you know, I'm just being honest. Um, maybe I shouldn't say

this, but um when someone like Dick Cheney dies, who who just did, my first thought is he had a lot of blood on his hands. Man, I don't forgive him for that. I don't think he deserves forgiveness for that. Does that make me

that. I don't think he deserves forgiveness for that. Does that make me a bad person? I don't know. Maybe uh a certain kind of Christian might say that it does. Uh what do you think, professor? Am I a terrible person?

it does. Uh what do you think, professor? Am I a terrible person?

>> It goes back to what you said earlier about people conceiving of of forgiveness as a virtue. And anytime you conceive it of it as a virtue, then unforgiveness will always be a vice of some sort. And one of the things that I

believe is that if forgiveness was a virtue, it would simply suggest that if you don't forgive, not only will unforgiveness be a vice, but there's something that you're doing. There's something that's occurring. There's

something that's happening that will make it the case that it becomes a vice as to it suggests that if I don't forgive, then I'm going to engage in in in revenge for my neighbor. If I don't forgive, then I'm going to cut someone's throat. Right? So therefore, you got to forgive so you won't do all these other

throat. Right? So therefore, you got to forgive so you won't do all these other kind of vicious activities. But I think that just because you don't forgive or you decide to, you know, not forgive Cheney doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to engage in all this kind of vicious and problematic, morally

problematic behavior, right? Um, also, um, I think that particularly when it comes to cases of these high-profile cases of of police violence or or whether that's racial kind of situations is to suggest that if certain individuals, particularly vulnerable people, don't forgive and they're going

to riot in the streets or whatever the case may be, right? I don't think that's the case. And because I don't think that's the case, then I think that

the case. And because I don't think that's the case, then I think that there's nothing that is done wrong when one decides not to forgive.

>> Yeah. I mean, Cheney may not be the best example. It's not like he personally wronged me. Uh but I think he got a lot of people killed and that feels like an injustice. Um

wronged me. Uh but I think he got a lot of people killed and that feels like an injustice. Um

the the roof the Dylan Roof case is interesting for a lot of reasons, but and I don't quite remember this and you will if I'm wrong. Was he ever remorseful at any point. Did he did he actually ever apologize or if I recall

he did the opposite? Right. He had an opportunity and and refused >> in nothing. No.

>> Does it ever make sense given your understanding of forgiveness to forgive someone who doesn't want it? who hasn't apologized, who doesn't have any remorse.

>> Well, it depends on what your your goal is, right? So, I I take it, you know, a lot of people like to think that um forgiveness has one goal, and that's reconciliation. We continue our relationship back up again. All right?

reconciliation. We continue our relationship back up again. All right?

But in the case of Dylan Roof, they had no relationship with him. So, of course, that couldn't have been the goal, right? I think there are a variety of what I call kind of reparative aims that happens in forgiveness. So, you can forgive in order to reconcile. And reconciliation doesn't look one

particular way. But you can also forgive in order to get some kind of relief,

particular way. But you can also forgive in order to get some kind of relief, whether that's kind of psychological relief or spiritual relief, right? Um or

you can forgive in order to release the wrongdoer from the hold that the wrongdoer has on them perhaps so that you can offer up or they can give themselves forgiveness. So there's a variety of preparative aims. So it could

themselves forgiveness. So there's a variety of preparative aims. So it could be the case um that you know you don't necessarily forgive for them. And this

is a popular saying people always say, you know, you know, forgiveness is not for the wrong door, it's for you. Well, it could be either, right? It could be for you, it could be for your community. It could be for the wrong door. So, I

think there's a variety of people that forgiveness can affect. Um, there's a variety of aims that affect people differently. So, you needn't always do it for the forgiver. You can just do it for your yourself. And if that's the case, then it doesn't really require apologies in order for you to forgive.

Now, here's the thing. Apologies does indeed make it easier, >> right? Um it lets us know particularly if you want if your goal is

>> right? Um it lets us know particularly if you want if your goal is reconciliation, you probably want the person to apologize because if you want to continue a new relationship with them, you need to make sure that they're in a good position not to redo the harm, right? So apologies would be would be

necessary. But particularly in the case of of Dylan Roof, like I said before,

necessary. But particularly in the case of of Dylan Roof, like I said before, they didn't have a a relationship with him prior, so reconciliation wouldn't have been the goal. And so someone might say that, hey, their forgiveness make perfect sense. they did it for themselves, right? So, they won't be haunted by this

perfect sense. they did it for themselves, right? So, they won't be haunted by this wrongdoing. Um, and in that way, perhaps they didn't need his apology.

wrongdoing. Um, and in that way, perhaps they didn't need his apology.

>> You just used the word goal, like should you have a goal in mind when you forgive someone or is that instrumentalizing it? >> If it's a tool, you're doing it for some reason, some moral purpose in mind, >> right? Now, mind you, think about think

about the context. Wrongdoing has occurred and it has disrupted the state of things, >> right? And the task that we have before us is how can we make things better?

>> right? And the task that we have before us is how can we make things better?

That's a goal. And the question is what do you want to make better? What do you want to make right? What do you want to make whole? That's all about the the the reparative aims. And what you want to make right could be the relationship.

What you want to make right is your own consciousness, your own sense of sense of peace, right? If you what you want to make right is a healing in your particular community, right? So, of course, you're going to have those particular particular aims. And I would suggest that if you don't have those

particular aims, you're probably not engaging in in forgiveness. You do

forgiveness for a particular reason. You do it in order to accomplish a particular goal. And if you're just out here forgetting the wrongdoing, then

particular goal. And if you're just out here forgetting the wrongdoing, then that's not not forgiveness. You want to you want a reparative reparative goal.

>> What if the goal is to let go? There's a very popular view of forgiveness. I

think probably the most common one that forgiving heals the forgiver, right? It

it allows the the person doing the forgiving to let go of whatever the the psychological burden of carrying around resentment and anger is. Is that a justifiable goal

even if it's um just that? >> Yeah, I think that's a that's a good goal. I don't want that to be the primary goal or I don't think that's always the primary the primary goal.

>> Why? Because it ignores the the root of the problem the the thing that the injustice that actually happened in the world. I think sometimes when we offer that as an as an example or reason, right, people introduce that as a reason

as to it suggests no matter what's at stake, no matter what the problem is, no matter what the wrongdoer is doing or not doing, no matter what the conditions of your of your life is, do it for you. Do it for you. And always doing stuff

for you is always justified. And I'm afraid that that excuse is always used or that reason is always used as kind of like an overriding reason to to to to forgive. Right? Now, here's the thing. It could be the case that when you talk

forgive. Right? Now, here's the thing. It could be the case that when you talk about let it go, could be the case I don't need to let anything go. I'm good.

So then the question is what will forgiveness look like in that particular context?

Right? It could be, oh, I let it go. I went to therapy. Oh, I I let it go. I go to a spa every week and I work out. I let it go every morning. Right? So, I want us to be kind of, you know, kind of particular about what the letting go is. Um, and there's

a whole bunch of things that you can do for you that can give you um that can allow you to let it go that has nothing to do with forgiveness.

>> So, you think you can forgive someone and and still be angry? >> Oh, definitely.

>> I definitely I think I think another kind of personal reason why I wrote the book um is not just a political example that I offered up but even in my own family. Uh my sister came to me kind of a decade later um about something that I

family. Uh my sister came to me kind of a decade later um about something that I talk about in the book concerning my stepfather and his behavior when my mother was uh on her deathbed and my sister you know basically she detected kind of the anger in my voice and she basically says you know what Maisha you

need to you need to you need to let it go you need to forgive him and at first I was offended um because I didn't want to be kind of perceived as an unforgiver and then I thought about it a little bit more and as a philosopher I kind of did my

research and then I arose lose out of that and I basically said to myself, I have forgiven him. My forgiveness just looks different from my sister. For my

sister, she let go of resentment for the purpose of reconciliation.

And for me, the anger is still there. I can't do anything about that. So then

the question is, okay, how do I know I have forgiven? Well, I no longer have hatred towards him.

I let that go just out of the memory of my mother and just a kind of repairerative aim for my family in general. Um but the anger is still there. Sometimes I feel it more strongly than I used to. Sometimes it's not

there. Sometimes I feel it more strongly than I used to. Sometimes it's not there. Um but just because the anger remains doesn't mean that the

there. Um but just because the anger remains doesn't mean that the forgiveness hasn't occurred. If I engage in a kind of moral practice that is I let go of hatred. Um and I did it for myself as opposed to reconciling in the

relationship. I have forgiven. >> Can I ask what what he did? While my

relationship. I have forgiven. >> Can I ask what what he did? While my

mother was ask my mother was dying. He basically brought another woman into the home. So he basically cheated on my mother as she was dying on her deathbed

home. So he basically cheated on my mother as she was dying on her deathbed and we we found out my sister and I found out about this. Um and uh he asked for my forgiveness um the funeral the day of the funeral and I remember

telling him and I say this in the book um you know at the time you know I just felt like forgiving him just wasn't kind of like the goal for that particular day. mourning my mother's death, honoring her memory was more important.

day. mourning my mother's death, honoring her memory was more important.

And so I basically said to him, you know, you need to reconcile with you and yourself and your God in relationship to this, but I have nothing to say. Um, but

I I I know that I have forgiven him. I no longer hate him. That was the emotion that I had was hatred. And that is what I let go. And the anger is still there.

It is what it is. I can't control that. Um, but I did make an intention not to hate him. How do you distinguish hatred from from anger or anger from rage or rage from contempt?

hate him. How do you distinguish hatred from from anger or anger from rage or rage from contempt?

>> Not everyone feels hatred towards wrongdoors, right? There's no doubt that I did indeed feel hatred towards him. You know, it's a kind of attitude that just makes it very difficult to reconcile, right? It it's hard for me to be in relationship with you when I think that you're below me in some kind of

moral sense, that you're beneath me, that you're the scum of the earth, right? If you are going to have a relationship, it's going to be quite

right? If you are going to have a relationship, it's going to be quite toxic one, right? The same thing for hatred, right? If I if I hate you, it's something about hatred that kind of leads us to kind of wish for the

annihilation or the elimination of the other, right? So, how can I want to kind of repair anything in regards to you when I want you no longer to exist in some kind of way, right? And that's that impossibility. Um, but one of the

reasons why I suggest that you can still probably have anger is that anger suggests that you know you have judged that a more wrong has occurred in relationship to to to people. It suggests that you know whoever the

victim was, you value them. So I valued my mother. I felt that she deserves so much more than his treatment of her in her in her last final days. Um, and it's also a demand that the person just do better in some sense, right? It calls

for, it's a kind of protest to suggest, I don't like what just happened and you need to do better because I continue to value my mother after she was gone because, you know, even as I talk about this with you, a part of me still gets

angry because what he did was really, really wrong. Those judgments are still there and that value is still there and the hurt that he incurred on our family.

It's hard for me to forget that. So that's why the anger is is there and sometimes it like I said it rises it falls but it's still there but I can still say because I let go of the hatred and contempt I have indeed forgiven him

and I have not decided to seek any kind of revenge and destroy his life because you don't even know his name. So I'm not destroying his life. Um so I haven't done any of that other stuff. Um >> and yeah my account allows for that

because it's just so multi-dimensional and so broad. It's hard for us to hold the idea in our head that forgiving can include both letting go and staying pissed off. Um but but maybe the problem here >> is that we keep thinking of forgiveness

pissed off. Um but but maybe the problem here >> is that we keep thinking of forgiveness as one thing when in fact there are different ways to forgive and and and different kinds of forgiveness. It doesn't just have to look one way.

Although I guess we want it to because we want to see everything as simple and linear. But forgiveness ain't like that. It's a It's a process and it's bumpy and >> complicated.

linear. But forgiveness ain't like that. It's a It's a process and it's bumpy and >> complicated.

>> I hate to let it go so much, Sean. You have no idea. Because not only do >> I'm going to lean into it. Say more. >> Yeah. Not only do we think that the it is the letting go of anger and as I just said, you needn't let go of anger.

Sometimes it remains with you because the judgments and the values that you still have. But another time we think that the the let it go is is is the it is the memory

still have. But another time we think that the the let it go is is is the it is the memory >> um and the hold that the past has on us, >> right? And so when people say let it go,

they're basically saying stop holding on to the past. But like I said a few minutes ago, >> right?

>> The past holds on to us. That's just the aftermath of wrongdoing, >> right? That's exactly what wrongdoing does. It puts a hold on us. It doesn't

>> right? That's exactly what wrongdoing does. It puts a hold on us. It doesn't

disappear. It doesn't go away. um it remains with us. And so when people say let it go, you know, this whole notion of forgive and forget because that forgetting thing is important. You can't forget the past, right? It stays with us. So

it's not just the the kind of cognitive memory, but it's also the traumatic memory that it has on us. Wrongdoing changes us. You talk to anyone who's ever experienced trauma, it changes us. It changes our biology. It changes our

future relationships. to change how we perceive of the world and perceive of

future relationships. to change how we perceive of the world and perceive of ourselves. Um, and so you can't let it go, right? But what you can do is try to

ourselves. Um, and so you can't let it go, right? But what you can do is try to repair your life for the future as best you can and that will never look whole.

Um, that's what you can do. What you can do is make people uh accountable and responsible. What you can do is stop rushing people to forgive. >> Support for this show comes from

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>> I want to stay with anger just just for a bit longer because yeah I mean we we we treat forgiveness like a virtue and we treat anger as a vice >> and that's it. Do you think it's important to also see anger as a moral emotion which we do not t tend to see it

as? We tend to see it as a a weakness, a loss of control. Um, but is that a

as? We tend to see it as a a weakness, a loss of control. Um, but is that a mistake? Do we also need to see it as as a moral tool in the way that forgiveness

mistake? Do we also need to see it as as a moral tool in the way that forgiveness can be a moral tool? >> It's is definitely a a moral tool. Um,

>> can you say more about that? Like how how it can be useful in the way that forgiveness can?

>> Yeah. the the British moralist Joseph Butler uh in his uh 10 sermons that he delivered um in one of the sermons he talks about forgiveness and resentment.

That's kind of the name of the chapter. And he basically suggests that uh if we did not have anger, he doubts that there would even be justice in in the world, right? He

doubts that we would administer justice in the courts. Um and so he cautions against eradicating anger. What he suggests is that we make sure that of course that

eradicating anger. What he suggests is that we make sure that of course that it's moderated that we you know use it for good etc etc that we don't allow our biases to allow us to have more anger for certain people and less anger for

others. But he finds it essential to justice. Right? So when we talk about a

others. But he finds it essential to justice. Right? So when we talk about a a moral emotion um these are emotions that are very important for our moral

lives. Right? Whether that is assessing good and bad, whether that's holding people

lives. Right? Whether that is assessing good and bad, whether that's holding people accountable morally, but it's also as a way to motivate us to

achieve the good over over the bad. And that's one of the the wonderful things about about anger. If you look at any kind of social movement, there's a whole bunch of emotions there. But one of the driving force to have them out on the

streets protesting day in and day out is anger. When you think about Black Lives Matter, for example, you know, what is the the the emotion that seems to be synonymous with that particular movement? It was it was anger, right?

Because one of the things that anger did just by the fact of anger itself, it proclaimed that that black lives matter, right? Because one of the things that anger does, as I said before, is that it suggests that those who have been

wronged are valuable. Because you can never get angry over someone or something that that you do not consider valuable. Right? If someone was to smash my car outside and I do not get angry, that's a good indicator that I no longer

value the car. But because I value the car, if anything happened to the car, best belief, anger, rage would be the emotion, right? So, it's a way to communicate value.

It's a way to to let people know that what just happened is not okay, right?

Um uh anger allows us to achieve justice. It motivates us to achieve justice to to make what was wrong to make it to make it right. Um so it's very it's very important. That's why it's it's a moral emotion.

>> It it kind of establishes value in some way. I mean I I'm a a noted Kimu admirer. I wrote my dissertation on his political philosophy. Um and his idea

admirer. I wrote my dissertation on his political philosophy. Um and his idea was basically that political solidarity, political revolt begins with a no. >> Yeah.

>> It it begins when a group of people look at something in the world and say no, this won't stand. You've crossed a line and offended something like fundamental

in me as a human person and that's not okay. And that's anger. I

mean that's that's the beginning of the creation of a political community really. Um and it's hard to imagine that being possible without something like

really. Um and it's hard to imagine that being possible without something like anger or some adjacent emotion but anger is a seems about right.

>> Before I wrote failures of forgiveness I wrote a book called the case for rage.

Um so you know anger has been my thing for for for a while. Um, and it just has these motivational components that I think is just very very important when I think over my life, whether that's uh from an interpersonalist perspective or whether that's from a kind of a political perspective. What really gets

me going, really gets me motivated is is anger. And I just can't imagine that there's just a lot of things that we would not have the motivation to do if anger anger wasn't that there. You know, I would also suggest people have a tendency to think that when anger is there, there's no other kind of positive

emotions that tags along. Um, and as we're suggesting that the value is connected with anger, that also kind of implies that if you're angry about something or someone as a result of wrongdoing, it implies that there's love

there, right? The fact that you want to make someone accountable through your

there, right? The fact that you want to make someone accountable through your anger, shows that there's compassion, shows that there's empathy there. So, I

think one of the, you know, things that people try to do in order to silence anger is to suggest that if you're angry, then you're just antithetical to all the good stuff that we should be feeling and all the good perspectives that we should be having. But typically, when there's anger there, there's also,

like I said, compassion, pity, and and and and love. And what becomes powerful is when you combine all those emotions together. You're able to have a wonderful movement. Um, you're able to do powerful powerful things that is able

wonderful movement. Um, you're able to do powerful powerful things that is able to maintain itself even when the anger kind of dies down. Have we always just pathized anger um in this culture? I mean I have we always had this forgiveness good, anger bad

this culture? I mean I have we always had this forgiveness good, anger bad dichotomy seems like an old thing probably. Yeah, it's a, you know, it's an interesting history because even when you go back to kind of the ancient

tradition, um, you have, I mean, we know about the Stoics, you know, they're going to say, um, you have anger because you just judge the world, you know, inaccurately, right?

You believe there's this thing called suffering. >> Yeah. And if you can't change it, then why you tripping? That's basically 2025 translation of the Stoics. Um, but

Aristotle thinks differently. I mean it he takes kind of righteous indignation as to be a virtue and to get anger quickly or not to get angry at all he

considers a vice right um and of course you you go into the medieval tradition in relationship to kind of like like a lot of theological influence on philosophy then it's like anti- anger and then you go into kind of the 1700s and 1800s you have someone as I just mentioned Joseph Butler who wants to say

to all the Christians in the room he was saying Hey, you can forgive and you can still have, you know, righteous anger and that's good for us to bring about justice in the world. Um, and then of course there's a tradition of kind of

masculine notions of of anger that anger becomes kind of synonymous with masculinity. And so men can do it, but women can't. >> It is kind of telling who we tolerate

masculinity. And so men can do it, but women can't. >> It is kind of telling who we tolerate anger from, isn't it? It seems like that there are certain kinds of people who are allowed to be angry and certain kinds of people who aren't. And maybe

that's just a familiar story about power and who has it. But >> yeah, it's a story about power. It's

also a story about anger because anger as we said said in as we've been saying anger ascribes value to lives that you won't get angry >> unless you feel like you have a right to

respect. So of course we think that privileged white men can be angry

respect. So of course we think that privileged white men can be angry because they just have a right to certain kinds of things and so they have a right to protest when they disrespect it. But when you think about immigrants being deported, oh, they shouldn't be angry. they should be grateful

is to suggest that their life doesn't matter. Um, so yes, it's it's power, but it's also kind of value, which is also very connected to power, but can be different. And I want to suggest that once we begin to see, you know, kind of

different. And I want to suggest that once we begin to see, you know, kind of our lives as as mattering or being valuable, there's probably perhaps much more stuff that we'll get angry about. Is there a danger in valorizing anger

too much to the point that it does become more destructive and less constructive?

>> Yeah. So, I'm a I'm a riskilian in this in this regard, right? So, I think that too much of anything is problematic. >> Um, also think that too little of anything is also problematic. >> And the challenge for us according to

Aristotle is to try to find that sweet spot. It's always a challenge as human beings trying to find that sweet sweet spot, right? So, it's getting angry at injustice. It's it's, you know, deciding to go out to the protest, beckoning your

injustice. It's it's, you know, deciding to go out to the protest, beckoning your politicians to change things. Um, and then just making sure that you're not motivated to like take a gun and do some things you probably will regret, right?

That's always the the the thin line that we're trying to we're trying to challenge there. Um, but but I think that can also happen with with love.

challenge there. Um, but but I think that can also happen with with love.

I think it can also happen with compassion. So, if you love people too much, like too much, like excessively, then it may be a great indicator that you're probably perhaps

taking their autonomy away or thinking that you know what's best for them or it may leave you to excuse their behavior, right? Um, that's just doing the most.

So, the challenge is to find that that sweet spot, right? If you have, you know, empathy is good, but if you have too much empathy, um, then and in in the ways in which you're trying to imagine yourself in their shoes, even in the most extreme

circumstances, then you're always going to, uh, offer them grace and forgiveness perhaps when you shouldn't, in ways in which it's only going to allow them continue to be their particular behavior. So we we like to to beat up on anger or suggest well too much of you know will be problematic but too much of

anything too much of any emotion too much of any attitude is is problematic.

>> A lot of what you're describing u sounds a lot like what people call restorative justice. Um you know the idea that that that justice isn't merely or or

justice. Um you know the idea that that that justice isn't merely or or shouldn't merely be about punishment that yeah >> it's also about repair and

accountability. How does forgiveness fit into that process?

accountability. How does forgiveness fit into that process?

>> Yeah, that seems to be the ultimate goal or the goal that we should be aiming for, right? So, after wrongdoing, you know, it's not that we, you know, want

for, right? So, after wrongdoing, you know, it's not that we, you know, want the person to suffer or we should make the person suffer, right? Um, we're

trying to figure out how we're going to recover, what is what is the future going to look like? And we we really mean that I think as human beings in a very kind of moral

like? And we we really mean that I think as human beings in a very kind of moral way in a very kind of healing way. Um so in that way our interpersonal life is quite different from uh the criminal justice system for for for example

um and it depends on who's trying to to to get what kind of justice right so if we go back to the Charleston case there's no doubt that the family members got up to suggest that they were going to forgive but at no point where they

were like release him out of jail allow him to start over right they still wanted the justice system to do what it needed to do um but they also wanted to recover and and relieve themselves from um the hold of the of of the of the

wrongdoing. Um we definitely have a problem in the United States with the

wrongdoing. Um we definitely have a problem in the United States with the ways in which we administer justice. There is no restorative stuff happening.

Um not on on scale. Um we try to figure out how much we can make the person suffer as much as possible and even suffer after they get out of out of jail. And I think that just says a lot about how we conceive of wrongdoers in

jail. And I think that just says a lot about how we conceive of wrongdoers in our particular society. And I think that's heavily heavily problematic. Um,

so I don't think that in our interpersonal lives we should do what society does. Um, but that's not to suggest that we have this utopian idea

society does. Um, but that's not to suggest that we have this utopian idea about what restoration and repair actually looks like. >> You know, it's

I think about this a lot in the um in the American context, right? where um

you know, we have this ugly racial history and we're both trying to acknowledge it, uh deal with it, and also eventually move past it. And I

guess you could say we've made progress, but it's clearly really hard to do these things at the same time. Um, do you think it's possible to have

national or communal repair in that way without some form of forgiveness? And if we do need that, at what point in the process can we get to the forgiveness? What has

to be fixed or repaired before we can like reasonably expect that?

There's no doubt in the South African apartheid case um that the individuals who were responsible for um bringing about truth in the community of all the atrocities that happened politically under apart which was what we call kind

of the truth and reconciliation commission that the individuals who led that commission truly believe that forgiveness was the way right so there's no doubt that they were trying to get the truth they were trying to get people to testify about what happened to them uh but the religious leaders and the

community leaders um mentioned forgiveness in those hearings and so much so that that brought about people not only saying what happened to them but perhaps even suggesting that

they will forgive uh the wrongdoers. So in that context they believe that forgiveness was the way.

Now I would suggest that forgiveness is not always the way. um or if it is the way it's not to imply that other things are not necessary. So even if we go back to the South African

case, it wasn't just these people's forgiveness that was necessary for creating a democratic South Africa. It was the truth. So it's not just their testimonies, but the wrongdoers had to tell the truth. The wrongdoers had to

state where the bodies were buried so that these people could move on with their particular lives. Right? a democratic South Africa need to actually take place, right? Reparations needed to happen. So, as much as we're familiar with the Truth

right? Reparations needed to happen. So, as much as we're familiar with the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, there were also the Amnesty Commission. There was also uh the reparations committee, which is suggest the committees are basically suggesting that there's a lot of things that we need to do. There's a lot of

work that needs to happen in order to create a new South Africa. Right? So

even in the South African case, as much as we think that forgiveness was what happened no >> political investment was what happened, right? Holding people accountable was what happened.

>> Telling the truth was what happened. >> Repaying and restoring people financially was what happened, right? So I would say that so even if we find forgiveness relevant, forgiveness can't do all the work, particularly in a political context like like South Africa. But I will also suggest that uh

when I think about American context which is just totally different from South Africa um we never had a truth reconciliation commission and so forgiveness was just never introduced as an option right we never had anything like like South Africa um

and I would even say unfortunately so although you know there's some criticism about what about what happened and what happened afterwards um for people to always compare those cases I think is just just a awful analogy because there was never a political project of reconciliation in the United States as

relates to black folks and descendants of of slaves. >> We're just trying to be more efficient here, Misha. We just want to get right to the moving on part.

here, Misha. We just want to get right to the moving on part.

>> But we love the analogy. We love the inspiration, >> right? To compare cases. It sounds so good. It tells a wonderful happy ending >> because, you know, this goes back to the

good. It tells a wonderful happy ending >> because, you know, this goes back to the happy ending point. In South Africa, I've been to South Africa several times.

There's still great inequality the way the political system is now. So even

things are not perfect after their or after some people have forgiven. Right?

So that's another thing. But I would say the American context is quite different.

That's not to you know to say that the descendants of in you know enslaved Africans have not forgiven. But I'm a descendant of enslaved Africans and I want to say that I have

not forgiven America for what they did to my ancestors. However, I have not taken a machete to someone's throat to try to take their land. I've not tried to overthrow the

government. I vote every election. I try to do what I can to make this a more just society.

government. I vote every election. I try to do what I can to make this a more just society.

And I think I'm not an outlier in this particular case. A lot of people are still feel the anger, still feel the sadness, still probably perhaps even feel the contempt about the founding fathers and all that stuff. And yet, America is still America.

There hasn't been a great uprising of any sort. And I'm saying this all to suggest that forgiveness was never a political project. A lot of enslaved, you know, descendants of enslaved Africans have not forgiven. And yet things have not gone

to Well, in some respects it haven't, but I'm talking about in this particular case talking about which is a suggest that unforgiveness doesn't mean that everything is just going to go crazy, right? And then the question is, well,

if forgiveness hasn't done the work in the African-American case, then what has done it?

Love for justice, love for democracy, self-respect, wanting to pick up the legacy and wanting to respect the the labor uh that our ancestors did do and what they

fought for and what they believed in and trying to continue that particular legacy and continue righteous anger. Continue righteous anger. Um, so that's why I think those two particular cases are ex are examples for me of even if you have forgiveness, you need more stuff to make things right. And even if

you don't have forgiveness, there's other tools, social tools, moral tools that can still make it the case that we can still live again or begin again.

>> Well, you said forgiveness isn't always the way. How do you how do you know when it is? And how do you know when it's it ain't the way? >> You try. There's a lot of people who

it is? And how do you know when it's it ain't the way? >> You try. There's a lot of people who have tried to forgive and they realize that even in the midst of them trying to forgive, they just

can't do it. So I was saying, I mean, this is one of the things that I echo in the book is that it doesn't hurt to try and try and you realize if you could actually forgive or not because forgiveness is not always guaranteed. the situations,

circumstances, and dispositions that would just make it the case that you can't achieve forgiveness. Um, or at least the aims of forgiveness. Um, but

it's also just just that you can really forgive and it just doesn't go back the way that it was or you're just unable to build a new life with the person that you've forgiven.

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What does it mean to forgive in a political context? It's not one person looking at another person who wronged them and and and asking for forgiveness or the other way around. How do you forgive a population or a community?

These are abstractions. They're both real and imagined things. Yeah, this is good. And this is always um uh a question that comes up particularly when

good. And this is always um uh a question that comes up particularly when people kind of consider reparations because reparations just part of repairing the world and trying to restore um >> right >> and so this is this is always a relevant

question and usually the the response is as follows and this is quite distinct when it comes to South Africa and also when it comes to to America

is that yes those who enslaved Africans are no longer alive. those who were in leadership positions are no longer alive. But the legacy of slavery still lives with us. Right? And

what I mean by the legacy of slavery is such that the same white supremacy that motivated or allowed people to ignore the suffering of black folks still lives with us today.

the policies that happened um as a result of trying to deal with that particular population um whether that's the backlash of reconstruction etc etc and the backlash of the civil rights movement there's a backlash right

now I mean backlashes are part of or is a response um and is therefore a part of that kind of legacy of of of of slavery and so although I was not enslaved myself

um unfortunately I am a victim of the legacy of slavery because it's still it still lives with us today. Now, here's the interesting thing about why the case of America is unique in relationship to forgiveness because there's a legacy of slavery.

It also suggests that there's something actively still going on. There's an

active injustice that's continuous to occur that's different from slavery but still exists. And because it is still active, for forgiveness to even be

still exists. And because it is still active, for forgiveness to even be relevant right now is disrespectful, right? That's like asking someone who is stabbing you, um, um, can you forgive me? Why would I forgive you now? You're

still stabbing me, right? It's not like like you're still hurting me.

Forgiveness is completely irrelevant. I need for you to stop harming me and then perhaps we can talk about forgiveness later. So, I think the American context is interesting because the harms um, some people are in denial about this,

but the harms are still happening. Um, disenfranchisement, the discrimination, the backlashes are still happening. And so from a a kind of political perspective, forgiveness shouldn't even be on the table. The eradication of of

harm should be on on the table. Uh >> Americans, you know, we love redemption.

Boy, we just we cannot get enough stories about second chances and and and grace. I It's a kind of cultural attitude. Do do you think that is an impediment to

grace. I It's a kind of cultural attitude. Do do you think that is an impediment to political progress? >> I'm going to rely on James Bowwin in answering this question.

political progress? >> I'm going to rely on James Bowwin in answering this question.

>> Can't go wrong with James. And you know, James Bowwin believed that America just loves the state of innocence. And in order to experience the comfort of innocence,

you have to not own up to what you've done or you have to be in denial about what is occurring.

So, it's not just a certain story. We've been talking about kind of like the happy ending story or the redemption story. There's also an innocence story that the narrative about America is that

we're always right that we're always we always have just aims. Everybody else is the problem.

Um we want to hold on to this notion of of of innocence. But that innocence part, you know, America is innocent in every way. Americans are innocent in every way. And if they're not if they're not innocent, they're ignorant. So he

every way. And if they're not if they're not innocent, they're ignorant. So he

already can't be held accountable for what they know and don't know. And I

think that is that the the problem, the one the illusion of wanting to hold on to that that particular innocence and not really face um you know come to face or acknowledge who we really are, you know, because that's a kind of thing like this is not who we

are. Like that's a statement. Only innocent people say this, right? People

are. Like that's a statement. Only innocent people say this, right? People

with illusions of their own innocence, their moral uh their their moral high ground.

uh their moral perception of themselves um they don't everything is always out of character for those kinds of people right and I think that's that's the problem >> and that only just holds politically also I know some people like that

personally right everybody else is always the problem they are the innocent that things happen they just made a mistake you know so that happens also and the reason why it can't happen politically is that that's a temptation for us personally as well

>> in the political context it's just one of the very difficult things here is that on some level forgiveness is is just essential for living together. >> Yeah.

>> People are going to be wronged and and there going to be injustices and and not all of them can be fully repaired. Not all of them can be fixed at the root level, but we still have to live together somehow and that's hard to do without forgiveness. But I also understand the point about dealing with

without forgiveness. But I also understand the point about dealing with the foundations of problems because otherwise nothing ever really changes.

And it's very easy to say that we have to forgive and move on. Uh depending on which side of the power hierarchy you sit, you know, um I don't even have really have a question here. I guess I'm just sitting in the tension and wondering if it's resolvable. And if it's not, that's okay because life is full of tension.

>> Yeah. I mean, I I would say that uh what you just said quite differently. So, I

would say forgiveness becomes relevant. Um given the messiness of life of you know, we live in relationship with each other. We're bound to mess up. We're

bound to wrong each other. And so forgiveness become relevant, right? In

order to get us back uh or allow us to recover from wrongdoing. Uh it's

relevant, but it's not necessary or central, right? There's perhaps other things that we have we can do in order to repair our world. Um I will also say that in some ways I'm glad that forgiveness is not necessary. I can change my attitude. I

can change my emotions or at least try to moderate them to a certain extent in order to achieve these repairative aims. It may be the case that I have a hard time um changing my emotions or moderating my emotions. The trauma is too deep.

And so that's just the reality of life, right? I can try to forgive and fail to.

So what do we do? If forgiveness was necessary, that would be a problem for repair. And

here's the good thing. where there's other things that can be done right to allow us to to become whole in some kind of extent right so I I want to make allowances is that you know on once we say that forgiveness is necessary

then we we we make it hard uh to explain cases in which people have tried to forgive but they can't and then are you saying that there's nothing that can be done for them there's no decisions there's no actions that can be made in their lives in order

for them to recover in some kind of way and I want to say yes it Right? So it may be the case they're unable to forgive, but therapy helps

Right? So it may be the case they're unable to forgive, but therapy helps them out. Talking about their problems helps them out because even when they

them out. Talking about their problems helps them out because even when they try to forgive, they can't they can't do it. And I want to say there's another moral tool. There's a moral tool for them. Thank goodness there is.

moral tool. There's a moral tool for them. Thank goodness there is.

>> I mean, you're honestly you're making me sort of interrogate my own assumptions a little bit in real time because I um I mean, I guess I've always thought u that forgiveness was essential for political life. U because how could it

not be? Um, but also in my political existence, I don't think I've ever really felt like I

not be? Um, but also in my political existence, I don't think I've ever really felt like I I had to forgive anyone, right? Just just really hasn't been a um

a problem in my political existence. Um, and so that made it easier for me to to sort of flatten the problem in the way that I did. >> Also could be some situations

that are just unforgivable. But it doesn't necessarily mean that because the act itself is unforgivable that we can't coexist with the person who perpetuated the wrong or coexists

with their descendants. >> All right. >> Right. Um there's some philosophers who argue that you shouldn't forgive the unforgivable. Right? That's a that's another thing. And what the unforgivable is, I don't have an account with that.

another thing. And what the unforgivable is, I don't have an account with that.

Right. I don't have an account for that. I don't have and the reason why I don't have an account for that is when we say unforgivable unforgivable for whom?

Because even when you think about the great atrocities, there's some people who have been victims to those atrocities who have forgiven. And then

there's other people who's been victims to the train same atrocities who cannot forgive. And so that get goes to show that hey, it depends on a person. So

forgive. And so that get goes to show that hey, it depends on a person. So

it's not necessarily the act itself that's unforgivable. people forgive and some people are able to.

Um the conditions make it the case, their dispositions make it the case, their community makes the case, the their faith makes it the case in which they're able to do it. And for other people, they can try and it's difficult.

Well, the book is called Failures of Forgiveness. We've been talking about the the failures or the limits of it, but I do at least want to ask before we do go about the gifts of forgiveness. I mean, what are the what are the best things

about forgiveness? Uh what can forgiveness do for for individuals, for

about forgiveness? Uh what can forgiveness do for for individuals, for communities that really nothing else can? So, I don't think it has anything unique.

Um I think we have a variety of tools that we can use that can get us similar goals. And I think that's the powerful thing about it. But I would say u that

goals. And I think that's the powerful thing about it. But I would say u that there's no doubt I think that forgiveness can be a way in order for us to repair our relationships.

It can be a way for us to repair our broken hearts. It can be a way for us to reconcile with our own self. I mean, we haven't talked about self forgiveness, but you know, in forgiving yourself is a way for you not to beat yourself up. It's a way for you

to give yourself a second chance and it's a way for you to learn from the past and begin again. Um, and I want us to take advantage of the gifts.

But anytime we command people to forgive or expect people to forgive or make people forgive, we end up causing more problems. And if we do want to repair the world,

then we ought not to put burdens on forgivers to do the work of forgiving that we should create the conditions to make it the case that wrongdoing doesn't happen in the first place. Or we create conditions that allow people to forgive

easier and allow them to reap the gifts of forgiveness. >> You said forgiveness is a way to to give yourself a second chance. Is it also a way to avoid responsibility?

It could be when you forgive yourself. Here's my Aristotle. Um, forgive yourself too quickly, right? Too easily, right? You can't you can't forgive yourself right after the

right? Too easily, right? You can't you can't forgive yourself right after the wrong. I mean, you haven't really set with set with it. You haven't really,

wrong. I mean, you haven't really set with set with it. You haven't really, you know, learned from it. You haven't really seen what it done to the people that you've harmed. So, if you do it too quickly, then that's that's that's that's giving yourself giving yourself off the hook. But if you sit with it

just a little bit. Um, but if you sit with with it too long and decide to engage in these kind of obsessive thoughts, thinking that the more you beat yourself up, the more you're able to to write a wrong, then that becomes that becomes the problem. >> Can refusing to forgive yourself ever be

a moral act, almost like a way of honoring the harm you caused?

>> So now you're starting stuff in which this is the end of our conversation. ask questions here.

>> I think Sean, I think things get a little bit more complicated when it comes to yourself.

>> And the reason why I say this is because you really have to live with yourself, >> right? Um

>> yeah. >> Um I can break up with a partner and >> I may be sad like the first five months or so, but life goes on. I can't really break up metaphysically with my myself.

Like I I have to live with myself. >> Yeah. Um, and what we find is that people who refuse to forgive themselves usually engage in very self-destructive behaviors. And there's a reason why that is the case, >> right? Um, but like I said before,

behaviors. And there's a reason why that is the case, >> right? Um, but like I said before, that's not to suggest that you need to do it too quickly. It's not to suggest that you ought not to learn. It's not to suggest that you ought not to do some work such as seek an apology. Um but because we live with ourselves and we

have to figure out how to continue to be with ourselves um then forgiveness becomes the way to do that. >> Well, I appreciate you coming on the show.

>> Thank you so much. I really enjoyed this conversation. >> And once again, the book is called uh Failures of Forgiveness.