大腦疲勞的警訊：焦慮、壓力、失眠、效率低落 with 美國頂尖腦科醫師 Dr. Romie Mushtaq｜Sherry's Notes 雪力的心理學筆記

when they talk about how stressed out or how burned out they are, it's mixed with a little bit of a pride.

>> Yes. Wearing the burnout as a badge of honor because it was modeled to us.

You're not doing well unless you're working hard. And you're not working

working hard. And you're not working hard unless you're suffering. When you

have chronic stress in a busy brain and neuroinflammation, that negative self-talk wherever it's internalized from will get louder. You know, reciting self-worth mantras isn't going to help

until you take down the neuroinflammation. And if we're under

neuroinflammation. And if we're under chronic stress and burnout, we are stressing our thyroid and adrenal glands, and we can push ourselves into early pmenopause. Hi everyone, welcome

early pmenopause. Hi everyone, welcome to Sherry's channel. Today, we're going to talk about a topic that's very close to my heart, and it's something that I've been struggling with, which is the

busy brain. So, today we have Dr. Romy

busy brain. So, today we have Dr. Romy Mushtak, a boardcertified physician and award-winning speaker on leadership and

workplace wellness and a steamist in stilettos. Um, Dr. Romy, thank you so

stilettos. Um, Dr. Romy, thank you so much for coming to my channel to talk about the busy brain cure because gosh, do I need it and do the people that I

work with need this? This is, I think, something that we all struggle with. So,

I'm excited to have you here today because you didn't start off living this balanced life and understanding this.

Um, in fact, I love your story, your story in Prada, your story in Silk. Can

you share with us how this book all began, how your journey into wellness began?

>> Sherry, thank you. It is an honor to serve your community, the people of Taiwan. And here is a fun fact that is

Taiwan. And here is a fun fact that is not in the book. One of my favorite places to visit is the National Museum

in Taipei. And I was there visiting

in Taipei. And I was there visiting um before I got sick as a neurology professor with colleagues. And I for the

first time felt quiet and peace. And

there was something being in Taipei and being with the people that I realized something about my life when I went back to America working as a

neurology professor wasn't right. I just

didn't have a term for it. Back then,

Sherry, even as a brain doctor, we didn't talk about our own mental health as professionals. The term burnout did

as professionals. The term burnout did not exist from the World Health Organization or in the medical literature.

I just remember leaving the peace and the culture and the food and the people of Taiwan and going back to what felt

like I was living out of control 120hour work weeks. And I thought, you know what, I can fix it with another title. I'm a full professor and a

title. I'm a full professor and a researcher. I entered neurology in the

researcher. I entered neurology in the United States at a time where less than 5% of the brain doctors in America were women. So that's why I call myself a

women. So that's why I call myself a feminist. And anytime I was having a

feminist. And anytime I was having a negative emotion, I thought I could fix it by going shopping and ordering

another pair of shoes. And I allowed the labels on my body to be an armor, thinking that would protect me and my

mental health. And I purposely write

mental health. And I purposely write about that in the book. I I used to feel shame about it, but I realized back then

it was collecting Prada and Gucci or Chanel. Today it is showing all of that

Chanel. Today it is showing all of that on Instagram or Tik Tok in s or YouTube in search of happiness. We are looking

outside to fill a void within.

>> And it wasn't until I started to have chest pain and ended up in life-saving surgery that I realized something was deeply wrong. And in my healing, I ended

deeply wrong. And in my healing, I ended up returning to many of the countries in Eastern Asia to understand holistic

healing acupuncture pranayyama Ayurveda, and mindfulness and meditation. And it is an honor to come

meditation. And it is an honor to come and give back to the community where I feel I first had my wakeup call.

>> That's wonderful. I think with hardworking people, especially hardworking women, um if not collecting

products, we're collecting titles. Just

like you said, we're looking outside for that satisfaction that never fulfills us. And you talk

about feeling not at peace and then having been to the National Museum, feeling that peace. I think a lot of people don't get to feel that. So they

don't know what they're missing. I think

once you have a glimpse of that peaceful moment through meditation or or hiking, what have you, then you understand the

discrepancy of the life that you lead.

>> Yes. But but so many of us, we don't get even get that chance.

>> We don't get that glimpse.

>> We don't you know this was back in maybe 2006 or seven when I was in Taipei. So I

am overdue to come back and visit >> and I would be honored but also candidly this was before the time of carrying a iPhone or a Android phone and taking a

picture of everything and a selfie. So I

had an old-fashioned camera but it really I barely took pictures. It was

about being present and something about being anchored in generations of history of Asia and you know my parents are both

of South Asian descent there was a homecoming feeling that was there in that piece >> right let's go back a little bit and talk about the actual illness you

experienced >> and why do you think when the writing was on the all it still took to that

point in the surgery room or or when you found out what you had >> to sort of snap you out of it. Because

when we use the external world as a measure, we stop focusing on the internal signals of our body, of our

spirit, of our mind until I say in in English, it's the clouds open up and the universe, God throws a brick upside your head. And for me, that was ending up in

head. And for me, that was ending up in life-saving surgery.

And I thought, well, let me collect collect another title. professor,

beautiful daughter, a dog mom, a homeowner, um, collecting the things.

And I also had, which is also a part of our Asian culture, shame. I would look to other colleagues, whatever their

nationality or background was, and at least externally they all seem to be doing fine. So I felt additional shame

doing fine. So I felt additional shame of am I some type of failure or not good enough that I'm physically and mentally struggling and I just kept pushing

myself. And then there are the stories

myself. And then there are the stories we tell ourselves before the internalized dialogue comes out of I have to push myself. I'm a single woman who is now divorced. I have to keep

working to pay for my lifestyle and support myself. So I became a victim of

support myself. So I became a victim of my own success. And I think that is what we do. And when something is wrong, we

we do. And when something is wrong, we think, well, let me just externally set another parameter for success. And we

stress ourselves to get out there. What

I call early in the book, you're stuck on the stress success cycle. And we have to break that. I know I'm jumping ahead a little bit. I love that in your book, you talk about the voice of your aunties.

>> Yes.

>> And I just want to say this is I think a lot of people with Asian and >> Okay. relate to is the voices in your

>> Okay. relate to is the voices in your head are not just from your parents but your relatives or your parents' friends right oh you should do this like how can

you give up that like you work so hard to get here how can you give that up I don't know if you experienced this with all the consulting clients you work with here in the United States and in Europe

I work with many um executives and high performing athletes and the self-confidence classes, working on the inner critic just doesn't help. And in

my research, I found this is that when you have chronic stress in a busy brain and neuroinflammation, that negative self-t talk, wherever it's internalized

from, will get louder. And so in our culture especially, and thank you for naming that, but I find so many people relate to this, the negative voices we

had when we were growing up to your point, not just parents, uh, elders, our cultural expectations. It could be a

cultural expectations. It could be a coach that that negativity overshadows, any experience of gratitude, joy, positivity, self-worth in your brain.

And you know, reciting self-worth mantras isn't going to help until you take down the neuroinflammation. And

that often for high achieving professionals, I purposely have the cutting judgmental dialogue of my aunties in the book because that may be

the first symptom you recognize of something is not right. I might have a busy brain.

>> Right. There are so many points that you talk about that I really resonate with.

I do coach a lot of people who work in semiconductors or high techch industry in Taiwan and I think I see a little bit of that in myself as well. Working off

of not gratitude but scarcity >> like not good enough, right? So you push yourself a little bit more and then you get that success which in your book you

talk about the dopamine hit >> that doesn't last long, right? And then

you go back into being stressed again.

And I often find that some people when they talk about how stressed out or how burned out they are, it's an ambivalent feeling. It's mixed with a a a little

feeling. It's mixed with a a a little bit of a pride like I get to be this stressed out. Oh, I'm working on this

stressed out. Oh, I'm working on this huge client. I'm raising this fund. I'm

huge client. I'm raising this fund. I'm

doing this presentation. So, you can almost sense that yes, with that burnout, but the underlying there is a sense of pride.

>> Yes. wearing the burnout as a badge of honor.

>> And it's deeply cultural because it was modeled to us.

>> You're not doing well unless you're working hard. And you're not working

working hard. And you're not working hard unless you're suffering. And I'm

here in the busy brain cure to say what you and I do now. We model we can have success and do it without stressing ourselves out. Now, I'm a realist. I am

ourselves out. Now, I'm a realist. I am

also an entrepreneur. Um, and one of my roles in addition to being a speaker is being a chief wellness officer for 13,000 employees. I'm in the seauite at

13,000 employees. I'm in the seauite at Great Wolf Resorts here in the United States. And we all have deadlines. We

States. And we all have deadlines. We

all have reports that are due. We all

But that's a sprint maybe for a few days or a couple of weeks. We can't keep renewing that sprint into a marathon.

There has to be periods where when we brain shift, we turn the channel from busy brain into how do I succeed

without this attitude and understanding this cultural bias of I can be a good girl or good boy or I can be a success without working night

and day without saying I'm busy and equating busy with successful.

>> Right. Right. And I think you're demonstrating that right now because I sense there's a sense of calmness about you >> and reading the book especially in the

very beginning you don't sense that at all. No. Right. You describing as a

all. No. Right. You describing as a younger doctor you were stuck in the chocolate wine coffee cycle.

>> Right. And just the way you described yourself it's a very type A personality.

frazzled uncontrolled >> and that's not at all what I'm seeing right now. So, so do talk to us about

right now. So, so do talk to us about how do we define the busy brain?

>> Yes. because I took your test and I thought there's no way people could get a score under 30 because I'll tell you I

got a score at 65 62 which you had mentioned in one of your speeches that if it's above 60 then it's a problem and to be honest while I was

taking it I was even being quite proud of myself I'm like see I've improved this is sometimes now this is not all the time and when I saw the score And then I saw what you wrote about the

scores and I thought no way people could get under 30 like in this day and age.

>> Yeah. Thank you for being vulnerable and sharing.

>> Yeah. Please tell us what the busy brain is and I and I I'll and what are the symptoms and I'd love to share with you what really resonated with me in this book.

>> Thank you first Sher. Thank you for modeling that vulnerability. When you

and I both talk about what we faced as highly successful professionals, we are modeling to others that it is safe to say, "I am not okay. This is not

normal." The busy brain has nothing to

normal." The busy brain has nothing to do with your schedule or your to-do list or how many projects you have going on.

It is actually a pattern of neuroinflammation in the brain. Is the hypothalamus in the brain for non-medical people. It is your airport traffic control tower. So you

know imagine planes cannot take off or land in Taipei unless people in the airport traffic control tower are monitoring the traffic. And if there is

bad weather in Taipei, in Singapore and Koala Lur, chances are flights are going to be delayed or cancelled even coming into Taipei.

>> And that is exactly how the brain works.

When we're under chronic stress and we make another deadline, we set another goal and we keep busy and we're sleepdeprived, it actually changes the structure and function and chemistry in

the airport traffic control tower of the brain. And that in turn affects the rest

brain. And that in turn affects the rest of your brain and the rest of your body through the hypothalamic pituitary adrenal axis, which is all 50 of our

hormones in our brain and our body. And

what are the key symptoms that happen when we're in busy brain? Medically,

highly intellectual individuals see ruminating anxiety, difficulty focusing, wondering, do I have attention deficit disorder? And the third is insomnia. And

disorder? And the third is insomnia. And

it looks like this is you can't focus at work. You're looking at multiple

work. You're looking at multiple computer screens and your phone. And a

simple task that should take you 3 minutes is now causing anxiety and taking 10 times the length and you feel like you're out of control. Your to-do

list is multiplying faster than you can handle it. So you keep having caffeine

handle it. So you keep having caffeine like I used to have the caffeine and chocolate, the dopamine foods and sugar to keep going. And then at night when

you think I can calm down here in the west alcohol is used a lot and or maybe sedative medications to you know so we're using chemicals to have energy in

the day and chemicals to sedate ourselves at night and then we end up in a vicious cycle over and over again the stimulant seditive cycle and that is what a busy brain is. When we look at

the World Health Organization data and the data from the American Psychological Association, my data, we looked at the busy brain and 17,000 people. That's how

we came up with the scale. So this is not something I made up. It is based on research of highly successful global professionals because this was the

pandemic and we were doing virtual um presentations. So, so many of the US

presentations. So, so many of the US European-based companies that are also all over South and East Asia were a part of this study >> and we found that only about 6 and a

half to 7% of people scored under a 30 and 8 about right.

>> Yeah. 82% of people had a score above 40, which is starting to indicate chronic stress, busy brain, and burnout.

So, you're not alone. And also maybe you are doing better when you have the self-awareness as you do with all the tools and skills and knowledge you have.

You're aware that my score was probably 10 to 20 points higher and I'm doing better. And that's the key is we want to

better. And that's the key is we want to do the brain shifts to improve. Right?

Um one thing that really does resonate with me and I think a lot of my audience know that I struggle with insomnia. So I

do meditate. uh I do sun salutations in the morning right instead of coffee now.

So I drink coffee a little later. So

these are steps that I've consciously taken.

>> But but I do find that at night I get nervous about not being able to fall asleep.

>> Yeah.

>> So that creates a vicious cycle.

>> It does.

>> It's like oh it's been 30 minutes 40 I need to wake up tomorrow. Yeah.

>> So I fully understand the what was that cycle that you call the stimulant >> stimulant seditive cycle.

>> Yeah. We need caffeine and here in the west um they're giving uh drugs for ADHD like aderall and rolin to adults as

performance enhancing medications to get you through the workday. That's

ridiculous. And if it's not alcohol, it's a sleeping pill or anti-anxiety prescription pill. And that's what I'm

prescription pill. And that's what I'm trying to stop. And I say this is I know your audience is largely professionals

and will say about middle age 35 and older. It is so important that you and I

older. It is so important that you and I are being vulnerable. Before I got sick, I had the same problem. I could not fall asleep. And if someone told me to

asleep. And if someone told me to breathe deeply or count sheep, it would make me even more anxious and agitated to fall asleep. Right? We're at a point

nobody wants to be told to eat berries, breathe, set boundaries. We need

something more. And I really want to have a candid conversation. We're going

to break down. But when we look at the root cause of burnout and what happens when our airport traffic control tower is in busy brain is we actually may be

having deficiencies where we need to check labs and fix that and we're going to talk about that when I hear that. So

it is not a personality defect that you're awake at night and feeling anxious. It is an internal signal from

anxious. It is an internal signal from your brain that there may be a hormone or nutrient deficiency that we need to check.

>> Okay, that's so interesting because later on I realized that cycle started to happen. I think it was during perry

to happen. I think it was during perry menopause.

>> Yes. Yes. So, um, looking back though, I wonder which one triggered which first because my menopause came at an earlier

age at 45, which is considered early for our community. I think the average age

our community. I think the average age here is about 51 or two. Um,

>> you know, thank you for letting me know because when we look at women of East and South Asian descent in the United States, >> perry menopause is actually, and I

apologize, I didn't mean to cut you off, >> can happen 5 to 12 years before menopause, where the period stops. And

we actually find in women of Asian descent, the symptoms are very different than what you typically read about in the studies of Caucasian, American, and

European women, that it is common to start at average earlier for Asian women around age 38 to 42, believe it or not, and not with the traditional symptoms we

think of of hot flashes and loss of libido. The most common symptoms are

libido. The most common symptoms are insomnia and feeling anxious.

>> Thank you. I did not know that, but I didn't have any hot flashes, which >> exactly >> I did not think I was going through menopause.

>> Yes.

>> Um I had everything else. I had um >> acid reflux. I had frozen shoulder.

>> I had vertigo.

>> Oh my gosh.

>> Waking up one day. Just couldn't even getting to the doctor, I threw up in the car.

>> Oh my gosh.

>> So very severe vertigo. Um, yeah.

>> And none of those symptoms I realized had anything to do with menopause. And I

thought it was all because I didn't sleep enough.

>> Which >> it's related.

>> It's related. But

>> but but you know, this is exactly what we're talking about. The hypothalamus

under chronic stress. The airport

traffic control tower is throwing off all your hormones, pituitary, thyroid, adrenal, and in women, estrogen, progesterone, and testosterone.

And it is uncommon or not as common in Asian women to have the hot flashes. But

all the other hormones control our joints, your frozen shoulder, digestion, so acid reflux, irregular um bowel movements, all the things that women complain about. and you think this is

complain about. and you think this is just aging or I'm not taking care of itself. What's actually happening is for

itself. What's actually happening is for those of us women, so we use two different terms. Perry menopause, which is around menopause, and then menopause is when the periods have actually

stopped um for 12 months or more. So

pmenopause has all these symptoms from all these different areas in the body, but it's all related to the brain and to our hormones. And if we're under chronic

our hormones. And if we're under chronic stress and burnout, we are stressing our thyroid and adrenal glands and we can push ourselves into early pmenopause.

So, the key lifesaving tip I really want to highlight here and double click on and I'm so thankful to serve my sisters

throughout Asia is if these random symptoms are happening, demand that your doctor do a full thyroid panel and look at your adrenal glands. Because even if

the doctor is saying, "Oh, they're talking a lot about pmenopause. Should

we look at your estrogen, progesterone?"

If they don't correct your thyroid first, everything else will continue to suffer. And for many women, we must fix

suffer. And for many women, we must fix the thyroid and everything else all just starts to fall into place and maybe the parmenopausal symptoms will even be delayed.

>> Ah, interesting. Because I think most women under circumstances will go check their hormones, their estrogen level.

>> Exactly.

>> Not thinking about their thyroid.

>> No. And so we need to check and it's in the book in chapter 16. I have an and it's on my website in English and it can be translated. We've checked through

be translated. We've checked through Google translate. Um the list of labs

Google translate. Um the list of labs for women is there and also I know you have many male colleagues. There's a

separate lab list for men in there as well because men's hormones are equally affected and they have different symptoms. >> Yeah. Yeah. I think I I I do feel bad

>> Yeah. Yeah. I think I I I do feel bad because I've talked about menopause in two of my episodes with doctors and I I do have male audience saying, "What

about us? We're going through stuff as

about us? We're going through stuff as well, >> but it's not manifesting in a physical symptom >> such as hot flash or or stopping a

period. So, it's harder to pinpoint, but

period. So, it's harder to pinpoint, but they do go through something. So, I

really appreciate you saying you have something like that for both men and women right?

>> Yes.

>> It is really important when men have a busy brain, the first thing I check with them, same issue. airport traffic

control towers off the control of the thyroid is off for men as well. And then

I check total and free testosterone and DHEA levels in men. And there is a misconception, oh my libido is fine in men and sexual health is good. That's

one of the later symptoms. If men are feeling anxious or revved up and can't focus, that's one of the earlier signs that from the brain and the rest of the

hormones may be off and we need to check that. And so it definitely shows up in

that. And so it definitely shows up in men as well.

>> I'm just curious are we're biologically set up to be this way or I think what's triggering could be just that midlife crisis.

I I I'm curious which one comes first.

Is it our biology to at a certain point um going through menopause or or that midlife point where your brain starts to deteriorate and you become more anxious

or is it around midlife you were standing around I remember being 45 and looking around thinking well life is half over is this it

>> is this the projection right >> um can I be more and I I think that's where we become kind of anxious. It's

like, okay, when you were younger, you think if I work harder, I can reach my dream, but at a midpoint, you're kind of thinking, well, I'm running out of time.

Did I do this? Who did I do this for?

Did I do it right? How come I'm not there?

>> I checked all the boxes. Why am I not happy?

>> All of above, right? All of those could happen to to any of us. I used to think that way. I used to think that way and

that way. I used to think that way and I'm going to offer you a different term and tell me what you think, Sherry.

Okay.

>> Instead, first of all, when you read about my story in the book and I was sick, I was in my young 30s. These

symptoms started when I was 30, 31, and I had life-saving surgery at 34. And I

try not to use the word midlife crisis and say midlife awakening.

>> Ah, that's wonderful. Some of us are stubborn like me. Some people have to have that health crisis or walking on the edge of a relationship crisis to

really have that awakening and others it naturally happens. So that's the first

naturally happens. So that's the first reframe. What do you think of that?

reframe. What do you think of that?

>> I think it's wonderful. But what you've said actually reminds me of eing a little bit of ying and yang. Everyone

has two sides.

>> Yes.

>> And that what's behind a crisis is actually an awakening or opportunity. It

is.

>> So I think they go hand in hand. But

that reframing is great for people who are going through it.

>> Yes.

>> Because then it's appreciative inquiry.

It's not a crisis we're going through, >> but it really is crisis/awwakening, right? It's a it's a ying and yang.

right? It's a it's a ying and yang.

>> I want to also highlight um looking at the mental health data in preparation for meeting you in Taiwan. Busy brain

can also happen to Gen Z and millennials. So professionals in their

millennials. So professionals in their 20s and 30s. So this isn't about midlife. And we see the rates of anxiety

midlife. And we see the rates of anxiety in Taiwan have doubled in the last 15 years. A lot of it, you know, people

years. A lot of it, you know, people say, is it because the stigma has been reduced and we're measuring it more? I

do think that there are other factors such as this pushing ourselves and burnout and the social isolation from the pandemic and the digital devices, everything that I cover in my book. And

so I don't want anyone listening to this to think this is something that happens in midlife. And

in midlife. And >> those of us that are leaders and we have employees or team members that are in their 20s and 30s, they are not immune

to busy brain. And maybe we can help them earlier before they have a life or health crisis.

>> Absolutely. I think as Gen X's or >> older than millennials, we were blessed of not having digital devices when we're younger.

>> Yes.

>> I can't even imagine the stress that I would feel if I have to as a teenager, you know, seeing other people's clothes or or their social life online all the

time. what kind of stress that would

time. what kind of stress that would create. So, I'm really happy that we

create. So, I'm really happy that we were blessed that we didn't have to experience that until midlife >> where then we understood what binge watching Netflix means, what being

addicted to your phone means. But kids

nowadays, they don't have that luxury.

>> Agreed.

>> So, yes, this book definitely is not just for people in midlife. I for people younger and younger now so unfortunate >> that they may need this too. Um, so for

the people who haven't taken the test where I got a score of 62, can you give us a little bit of a sneak peek of what are the questions?

>> Absolutely.

>> That we're going we should ask ourselves. This is again not a test that

ourselves. This is again not a test that I made up and and you know Sher you'll appreciate this is a validated neurosychology stress test that we relabeled the busy brain test because I

was going into global companies and I couldn't say I'm a brain doctor doing research and here's a psychology test you know and we looked at data in 17,000

people and the reason was we knew that our brains were being rewired from the changes that were happening in a post-pandemic world and I really wanted to understand what was happening. So,

you're asked 20 questions and it takes less than 4 minutes and it's in the book for you and for English speaking. It is

on my website dromy.com and on my Instagram. You take it for free and you

Instagram. You take it for free and you answer questions like I have difficulty falling asleep at night and you choose never, sometimes, always. And just think

about the last two weeks in your life and you will get a score and ideally you're in your brain power if you score under a 30 which I mentioned less than 6

to 7% of people taking this test get there. Most people will fall on the

there. Most people will fall on the borderline you know between 30 to 40 we call that brain drain. Okay you're in a sprint we need to slow down and do a brain shift reset.

If you start scoring above a 40, this is when we know the mental and physical symptoms of chronic stress and busy brain turn up. And above a 60, I'm actually worried that you're burned out

and could this be manifesting as disease. And that's why I share my story

disease. And that's why I share my story and the book so people can walk in my stilettos in the hospital watching

myself push with these symptoms like you said that just seemed random. uh not

sleeping, feeling anxious, medicating with chocolate and coffee, acid reflux, couldn't swallow. You you just couldn't

couldn't swallow. You you just couldn't piece it together. And it turned out I was having a spiritual, mental, and physical crisis. And so that's what the

physical crisis. And so that's what the busy brain test is going to tell you. In

simple terms, you get a brain score. I

think, you know, we all know what our financial health score is. We should

know our brain score and we should prioritize keeping our brain scores healthy.

>> Absolutely. Absolutely. And I do think that I have I privileged to have that awareness now, but I do look around and

see a lot of my friends or colleagues or the people that I coach, they are really experiencing burnout and they don't know it >> or they they have a hard time

acknowledging it because the environment that they are in.

>> Yeah.

>> Everyone is experiencing the exact same thing. So it becomes the norm.

thing. So it becomes the norm.

>> Yes.

>> Right. So, can you talk a little bit about burnout and how living in our society in this day and age, if your

culture, if where you work, where you live, that's the norm, how do you change that? How do we empower a person to say,

that? How do we empower a person to say, "Hey, look, this is not normal. We need

to take a break." Because I do see younger people saying that now >> and they're being putting they're labeled as lazy, right? It's so easy to

label another generation like I don't get these Gen Z's. I don't get these >> right millennials because they're are different. Um but I'm looking at that

different. Um but I'm looking at that label and part of it is that fight back to say no, I don't want to be stressed out like you. like I don't want to

answer your call 24/7. I don't think that's normal.

>> And you have that push back from the authorities, from the power within the company saying, "Well, that's lazy.

That's not being committed to your job."

>> So I I do think a lot of people struggle. A lot of my clients

struggle. A lot of my clients >> Agreed. You know, this is a global

>> Agreed. You know, this is a global crisis and you just gave the example so beautifully. And I think the work you

beautifully. And I think the work you and I do inside company is I often say we're teaching the five generations in the workplace how to speak to each other

and understand each other. And the rate of change in the world of policies and technology is can create this change fatigue and we

cannot succeed as a company. I'm saying

this from the lens of an organizational wellness expert and a chief wellness officer.

We can no longer use these outdated models of this authoritarianism from the top, you know, the seauite, the doctor in charge of the clinic or whatever

driving toxic work conditions that are feeding into the burnout. This inability to disconnect, you know, um, for a personal

life, the inability to take sick leave or a vacation without being expected to plug into work on your vacation days.

And that is shows up in the bottom line.

There is global data that shows the more toxic a work environment and unhealthy stigmas we have. Mislabeling other

generations or groups of people and not having understanding and inclusivity reduces productivity, reduces the bottom line drops engagement and increases

turnover. And so the minute you

turnover. And so the minute you translate that into financial ROI for the people in charge, you and I get them to listen. So first I it is starting

to listen. So first I it is starting from the top. How does that become a reality? I will tell you how many times

reality? I will tell you how many times Sherry in the last I started to research the busy brain cure in 2018 and the book was published in 2024. How many times a

a boss, a leader, a seauite executive would be sitting in the auditorium and I've come as the keynote speaker with their arms crossed and like you have brain doctor talking about mental health

like what is this and then they would get their own brain score and I typically in a lecture in America it's okay to do it's it's not you know too

culturally challenging to ask people raise your hand if your score was above a 30 and the minute the leader CEO sees 80% of the people in this room raise

their hand. There's an aha moment.

their hand. There's an aha moment.

Numbers don't lie. So, we have to have a wakeup call to our leaders.

>> And I think now as an elder, as in an auntie myself, you know, you see in the book as I heal my busy brain, the internal voices of auntie go from

judgment to wisdom and hope. I try to be that auntie to the millennials and Gen Z in our workplace and and companies. And

I think what wisdom they have that we can learn from them. Had it not been for millennials and Gen Z during the pandemic, they blew open the mental health crisis globally using social

media. And I'm so proud of them.

media. And I'm so proud of them.

>> Yeah. I love the way you frame the this because we do see a lot of labeling of different generations and that's

>> one of the most challenging or most requested task that I get asked as an organizational consultant >> um how do I talk to that different

generation and I'm looking at it from a larger larger scheme of things is that we need to experience a paradigm shift Right.

>> I understand it's difficult for people in the sea suite to see that because right away they're going to see decreasing productivity cuz if you ask

someone to work 14 hours a day, 18 hours a day.

>> Yeah.

>> Um versus eight.

>> I think right away you will see a drop.

>> Absolutely.

>> The number and I'll send you the study via email when we're done speaking. I

was pulling up some data in Taiwan. The

number is 49 hours. You're more likely to have burnt out, disengaged employees who lose productivity if they're being asked to work more than 49 hours a week.

Now, the traditional leader or seuite executive, not all, but many may say, "I work more than 49 hours and I'm just fine."

fine." >> And I sit down with them and they're not fine.

>> Whole person assessment and it's not really the case. there are key areas financially, relationship, health that may be struggling. Um, and so one they

are not fine and two when we see that employees are given that flexibility that morale and productivity actually improves.

>> Yeah. Because, you know, there's a tipping point for all of us with our busy brains that you add one more item to my to-do list and you hit that busy

brain state, it's going to take me hours to complete that task. Whereas, when I brain shift, I can get that task done in under 20 minutes. And that's what's

happening when we don't deal with busy brain and burnout in the workplace.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And I was thinking for those that we call lazy at work, right? Not

working hard enough. How come the young kids nowadays aren't committed to work?

And I think to myself, well, what about our generation? Because for those of us

our generation? Because for those of us who had awakenings, usually take something big and then you shut your life down and go, okay, I need to work

on my body. So that push back at a younger age, is that really a bad thing?

I mean, I do understand the complexity of our economic system where you know your country needs you, your community needs you, your employee needs you, you

can't make major changes. But I think coming together and recognizing that this culture is toxic and not sustainable is the first step.

>> Um, >> I don't want to blame all the elders.

What I think is the work you and I do inside organizations is to bring people together to talk about those attitudes that the truth and the wisdom is somewhere in between.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> And you know, you may not know somebody's full story. They may be a caregiver to

full story. They may be a caregiver to elderly loved ones and they need to leave work early and you've misjudged them because you have a busy brain.

You're burned out. So you're projecting negativity, calling them lazy or not dedicated to the company when actually they are and they love their job but

they also have a competing priority and they're saying I'm modeling to you having harmony in my life >> and being able in any given moment to

switch competing priorities and it's not an all or nothing zero someum game where if I leave work early for something in my personal life all of a sudden and I'm

a lazy employee.

>> And not all bosses or leaders of our Gen X or Boomer generation are toxic and say stress, stress, go, walk it off. You

know, I I think there is a happy medium for all of us to sit down and learn from one another and those conversations are going to look different in every industry.

>> Yeah, absolutely. And I think you bring up a great point about having less empathy when you have that busy brain.

Yes.

>> When you are under stressed.

>> Yes.

>> You don't have that cognitive agility to have empathy to see maybe this person isn't lazy.

>> Right. Because you are laser focused on what you're trying to get done. I think

that's from my previous experience.

You're just not empathetic in that moment.

>> Yes. Agreed. literature globally

suggests that because the higher your busy brain score is, the closer you are to burnout, you have emotional exhaustion. You do not see the wins at

exhaustion. You do not see the wins at work. You don't have purpose in your

work. You don't have purpose in your work. Everything is a task. And then you

work. Everything is a task. And then you project that onto everyone else. And so

I love your reframe that yeah, when your brain channel is set to busy brain, the empathy channel is turned off. And

>> you know we can heal together and have empathy and listen and learn from one another because when leaders have the opportunity to quiet their busy brain

and heal and listen innovations start happening inside the company. Yeah. You

wrote your book I think on page 36 that emotions change how the brain functions.

I was so interested in this sentence because I study personality and behavior psychology, right? As a psycho psych

psychology, right? As a psycho psych major, that was our focus when we're in college. And then as organizational

college. And then as organizational psychologists, you're thinking about the external factors that causes your emotions to change. But here you talk

about emotions change how the brain functions.

would our personality or the our brain makeup um let's say uh for MBTI like I'm

ENTJ loving the to-do list loving checking that off getting that dopamine hit you know it's all about crossing things off um I'm curious if our

personality or the way our brain is shaped also sort of causes that to have certain you're you're more likely to

experience certain emotions.

>> That is brilliant. And I would love to learn that from you as an expert in MBTI. I am ENFJ.

MBTI. I am ENFJ.

And what I think we know is when someone has done that work, they are given the toolkit for emotional regulation and self-regulation.

When I talked about emotions will change the structure and function of the brain, I'm talking not about personality traits but psychonuroimunoendocrinology.

And so psych is your emotions, your mood. So you read about my frazzled,

mood. So you read about my frazzled, anxious angry mood in the beginning of the book and that negativity

fuels the neuroinflammation. So psych to neuro the structure and function of the brain that now affects immuno your immune system and hor endocrine your

entire hormone system. So what really is happening is when I lacked the self-awareness and was frazzled I was allowing outside circumstances

at work in my personal life to dictate my mood.

And when we heal a busy brain and definitely therapy works, I'm so thankful for my therapist. Um, you know, I would not be here today without therapy and learning some of those

tools. Um, mindfulness-based cognitive

tools. Um, mindfulness-based cognitive therapy helped me. I then trained in it.

Meditation practices, all those things that >> help our emotional intelligence and emotional regulation. Then all of a

emotional regulation. Then all of a sudden those same external problems can be there on social media at work and in the political landscape of the globe but

we're not reacting emotionally to it. Um

that that's how I see it. I would love your wisdom as someone that specializes in you know the MyersBriggs. Tell me

what you think. Do you think certain personality types would be more prone to a busy brain? That's fascinating to me.

I never thought of it in that lens. I

have my hypothesis, but I don't have valid data to back it up. It's really

from my own experience. I do think >> TJ types their busy brain is that dopamine addiction of

>> finding out, crossing things off, getting things done and always having goals in life. And I think for FJ types

like yourself, this busy brain is more the aunties that I need to please, right? I need to please all of these

right? I need to please all of these people's expectations because I want harmony.

>> And I think for TP types, um, any types of TPS, it's the addiction for information, the truth

>> I'm looking for. So there's no time boundary like I want to know what's real and true. And I think for FP types the

and true. And I think for FP types the busy brain is emotional one like I'm experiencing all sorts of different emotions and you can get that online now right.

>> So I have my hypothesis that um different types have different types of busy brain.

>> Yeah. But I think there are everyone is is um >> can be prone and the symptoms will show up a little differently. I mean so well said and I can't wait to take that clip

and and share it and never broke broke it down that way but I it is beautifully said.

>> Well it's my hypothesis so I I don't I'm not really sure. Um, but you talked about neuroinflammation and inflammation is a word that's it's it's sort of the

center of my life for the past few uh months because I've been cutting off sugar completely.

>> Excellent. because because I just had stomach issue and had consistent inflammation and my doctor very kindly

suggested that I try this for a little bit and the numbers went down. But I

love that you talk about diet and nutrition >> and you talk about the stimulant seditive cycle, but you don't push

people to quit sugar or a coffee right away and you still embrace comfort food.

So I just want to say to people, I had to quit sugar because I was at an extreme state. But I think earlier when

extreme state. But I think earlier when people suggested to me any type of method that said you need to cut coffee and sugar, I would be like nah, I think I'm good.

>> But I love that you are very you give people grace and say hey >> practical. Yes,

>> practical. Yes, >> that's not realistic.

>> So caffeine is not evil. And what we know for most people, caffeine from natural sources, so from coffee, from tea, from cacao is actually very healthy

for you. earlier in the day it so it

for you. earlier in the day it so it goes along with your circadian rhythm um your dosha type your Ayurveda I mean all all of that you know the cycle is

natural to have caffeine what is a problem globally is this diet culture diet is a four-letter or curse

word in in my company and in research and and I'll tell you something Sher I speak for a living companies hire me to speak globally there has been one time that I got a standing ov ation in the

middle of my talk and I was speaking at the American Counseling Association and I showed them the toxicity of the diet culture and what it's doing to mental health and busy brain and burnout. And I

got a standing ovation that we need to stop the diet.

And to tell everyone blanketwise that you need to cut sugar is actually wrong.

For many women that have adrenal fatigue and pmenopause, sure, cutting high glycemic foods that spike your blood sugar, but not cutting

all carbs is is actually dangerous for many women. We need some type of complex

many women. We need some type of complex carbohydrate as a source of fuel to get going through the day or it could stress our nervous system, gut health, and hormonal health even more. So then there

is this complexity of I'm a chief wellness officer to people of diverse backgrounds from all over the globe. We

all have our own nutrition preferences and lifestyles that are tied to cultures and to religions. And to demand someone be vegan or vegetarian or keto or intermittent fasting again is

irresponsible from a health point of view and from cultural competency >> and inclusivity. So, I had to find the solution of how could I heal your

burnout without putting anybody on a diet or a cleanse and make it fun and create systems that were setting you up for success.

So, number one, we say once to twice a week, have comfort food.

>> Comfort food is different than stress eating. Comfort food is that next time

eating. Comfort food is that next time you come to the US or I come to Taiwan, we sit down face to face and enjoy a meal together. Sharing a meal of

meal together. Sharing a meal of favorite foods with someone and not feeling guilty for what's on the plate.

Then the brain shifts we studied. We

need you to heal the burnout. There's an

8week plan. In week five and six, we tackle how do I improve your daytime energy so you don't need so much caffeine.

>> Mh. And that was actually if you're going to have caffeine then no sugar for 1 hour before or after.

>> And if something happens in the day and you're like that doughnut, that croissant, that piece of bread looks great, then don't have caffeine 1 hour before or after.

>> White rice, white potato, white sugar, white bread, >> and white flour. But this is so interesting because when we drink black coffee or when we have dessert, we want

black coffee to go with it. That's the

hard part. It's so cultural all over the world, whether you are a tea drink or a coffee drink or we have some type of bread and croissant in the morning or

donut or bagel or we have a treat with it. And so it's the idea is divorcing

it. And so it's the idea is divorcing that the two and the reason is is caffeine is a wonderful neuro stimulant.

But if you spike your blood sugar and stimulate the insulin receptors in the brain, you're actually creating what I call frazzil and busy brain or or the you know adenosine receptors and insulin

receptors are fighting each other. You

can't focus. You're literally creating ADHD brain by the chemicals in your body, chemical reaction in your body. So

have one or the other. Now what

happened? We tested this 8week protocol in over a thousand executives and it's by week five or six they're having comfort food once a week. They can't

believe it. I'm like, "Sure, enjoy the barbecue. Enjoy the ramen noodles. Have

barbecue. Enjoy the ramen noodles. Have

at it. Like, have a great meal. It is

your child's birthday. Please have the cake and the ice cream and enjoy it."

And they were sleeping again. And then,

you know, we were doing these biohacks of either have the caffeine or the sugar. Most people not only normalized

sugar. Most people not only normalized their busy brain score and were sleeping, but they were dropping a pant to a dress size.

>> Wow.

>> And still eating comfort food. And that

was the magic. And then the second, you know, when you divorce the sugar and caffeine from each other, the second step in week six or brain shift six, it it which is in the book and outlined is

to add a serving of healthy fat, one to two servings um each meal, which naturally I know occurs if you're having a traditional uh diet there in Taiwan.

If you're eating some of the processed western food, it kind of runs a muck.

it, you know, the seafood and seaweed and nuts and and just so many, you know, the the healthy oils that are co food is cooked with there. So, it naturally

happens but for every meal.

>> Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. And I

I think back and I think, wait, did I trigger myself by trigger my hormone mix up by not eating carbs? That could be a

possibility because after baby number three, >> I'd struggle to lose the 30 kilos that I gained >> and you know going to that no carbs diet.

>> Yeah.

>> And I think even when I was doing it, I knew it was doing a number on my body, but I was younger then and I thought, well, I want to look better

>> and this is the most effective way. So,

thank you for for letting us know that we can be more compassionate towards ourselves, that we don't have to have

>> a hard regiment of diet and cleanse and >> and force ourselves to not eat the things that we love. And

>> I mean, a no carb diet in Asia, we'd have to give up rice and noodles. No,

>> that's not like that's not our culture.

It's not our lifestyle. It's not our ancestral DNA. And scientifically also

ancestral DNA. And scientifically also it's wrong because any woman even you know in your fertility cycle if someone is having um postpartum you know thyroid

is a little abnormal which can happen to most women you know the stress of pregnancy in the body and breastfeeding and if someone has PCOS then to have adrenal fatigue when you're cutting out

all carbs it is stressing the adrenal gland even more and that will stress estrogen progesterone levels. So at a young age it'll affect fertility and in middle age it'll bring on parmenopause quicker.

>> That probably was what did it and I think Dr. Romy you talk really all about compassion your book and I love the

eight weeks plan. Can you tell us a little bit give us a brief preview of um your practical framework and how we can use this book? I've carried this book

with me everywhere. This is all wrinkled. So honored.

wrinkled. So honored.

>> Thank you, Sher. Truly honored. And

thank you for honoring, you know, that work that was born from me burning out, having life-saving surgery, sitting in the hospital saying there has to be a different way to live.

>> Yeah.

>> And doing the research, and coming back to help others, and by sharing this on your platform, even if we save one life, then you and I have had this conversation for a profound reason. And

that is why I created that eightstep program. I'm a neurologist specializing

program. I'm a neurologist specializing in integrative and functional medicine.

To see doctors like myself is very expensive and difficult globally. I

wanted to democratize the protocol and put it in a book that people could easily buy, walk through themselves, go to their local doctor and get those labs checked. So, we made it in a way that

checked. So, we made it in a way that was simple for people to execute who have are busy professionals, parents and caregivers. Give me 30 minutes a day and

caregivers. Give me 30 minutes a day and we're going to add one step every week called brain shifts to set you up for success and heal. And that is exactly and so we talked about brain shift five

and six briefly. You're not going on a diet. We're just changing your nutrients

diet. We're just changing your nutrients a little bit and how and what time you eat. That's all.

eat. That's all.

>> Yeah. And it's really if it's really hard I would have been like ah I need to push it off but really you've set the goals in nice easy steps.

>> Right.

>> Right. Week one

>> they build on each other that you don't even notice. People would come back and

even notice. People would come back and going is this all I'm doing this week and I'm like yeah how are you feeling?

Oh I'm sleeping great. I

>> I love that. I love a very easy to follow and not making you bend yourself backwards type of plan. That's that's

sustainable. So you don't give up by week three.

>> Yes. And and so because you don't want your health care plan to feel like a part-time job.

>> We all have full lives. It should just fold into your life as you give yourself compassion and quiet the voices of the aunties in your brain.

>> Yeah. Yeah. The aunties for sure. But I

do hope that instead of those aunties, we have installed your voice as the new auntie. And I I I I I think what you've

auntie. And I I I I I think what you've also talked about is the importance of community. You've urged the readers of

community. You've urged the readers of your book. You have this website so we

your book. You have this website so we can sort of all support each other and even hold each other accountable in some ways. Sort of gentle reminder that we're

ways. Sort of gentle reminder that we're all in this together. where we're a cohort of learners trying to cure our busy brain. Um, I love that as an

busy brain. Um, I love that as an organizational psychologist because you're not putting that much pressure on the individual like you it's all your

responsibility to get better, >> but you're building a community. So, can

you tell us why you thought this is important >> and what made you want to build this community and why did you see that having a community is much better than

not having one? The difference in that, >> you know, we're social beings and I know personally going on a scary health journey is so isolating and you feel

alone and yet everyone is walking around with a busy brain. And we know from an organizational psychology and wellness point of view that the team that stays

fit together succeeds together.

>> And you know, long gone are the days where team building exercises are we're going to go out to the bar and drink together. That's not very inclusive. And

together. That's not very inclusive. And

so we thought, what if it, you know, this started in the pandemic when people were working virtually, but teams still call me to implement this in person. is

we're going to bring teams connected together to say you're not alone in having a busy brain or burnout. There

are other colleagues here. We're going

to heal it and the leaders are going to be there with you modeling this and everyone is on an equal playing field.

Nobody's one busy brain is important than anybody else's.

>> And to your point, the cohort-based learning, when you have accountability and we're making it fun and it's making social connection and you're in shock going, "Oh, wow. She's letting us eat comfort food. This is phenomenal. The

comfort food. This is phenomenal. The

change will stick. And in the middle of those conversations and the virtual chats that we set up for companies when we run this program, leaders get to see those aha moments of employees saying,

"Oh, I can handle this or I feel more engaged or this thing I was complaining about work is no longer a complaint because I've healed my busy brain." And

innovative solutions come up to systemsbased problems. And people now are healing busy brains. So they're open to use your, you know, wisdom earlier

with empathy and compassion to listen.

>> Yeah. I do want to share one last thing with you is that um I don't know if you know I've also just interviewed Dr. Tara

>> who is a neuroscientist. Yes. And I have this strong sense that talking to both of you that this is the beginning of a

paradigm shift. And I think it's going

paradigm shift. And I think it's going to take female women, doctors, western

trained, but with Asian, South Asian descents who are familiar with yoga, with meditation, with the study of spirituality

to sort of speak the language of the more male centric and the more patriarchal um world that we live in to sort start

that awareness, that awakening and that balance in our lives. And I I do think that you were picked to start the revolution

and it's sort of a calling that I see in the both of you and and I'm very grateful and very honor for you to come to my show and sharing your wisdom.

>> Thank you for being that hopeer and holding that vision for myself, for Dr. Tara and you being a part of that paradigm shift. You're absolutely right.

paradigm shift. You're absolutely right.

The rate of the world is changing and we can't forget to meld the ancient wisdom with modern science and science and spirituality are no longer two separate

entities but go hand in hand and um I call it you are one of my hope holders and what an honor and I am here doing the same for you. You are offering healing.

>> Thank you. Thank you Dr. Romy. Thank you

for coming on my show