World-Leading Scientist on the Evolution Myth, Super Humans, Genetic Engineering & Origin of Life

You are a professor at Rice in Houston.

What do you teach there? Tell us about your specialty, your your work, your professional work. I'm an organic

professional work. I'm an organic chemist. I teach organic chemistry, but

chemist. I teach organic chemistry, but I also do nanotechnology.

So I have appointments in chemistry as well as in material science and nanoengineering as well as in computer science. And so I will teach at the

science. And so I will teach at the interface of all of these. And uh uh that that's what I do. I teach and I do a lot of research. I have a big research group there and we work in the area of

nanotechnology across from from pharmaceuticals. I I've

started several pharmaceutical companies, several materials companies, several electronics companies. We're we

have new AI memory a AI computing/memory chips we've made and and uh uh other memory on the market through companies we've started. So, so we we that's what

we've started. So, so we we that's what we do. We we generate new things and

we do. We we generate new things and publish papers, produce PhD students and start companies.

So you're actively now you're actively involved in scientific research.

>> I'm actively >> involved in scientific research, not just teaching.

>> Yes. Yeah. That's what I do. Most of my day is scientific research. I only

lecture uh uh two and a half hours a week, something like that. And the rest of my time is is uh uh on the research side. I I should say for people who

side. I I should say for people who aren't grounded in this, you're you're well and I know that you won't say it, but you're you're well known in your field and um and I'm saying that because

you also speak openly and have your entire career, I think, about Jesus and God and the fact that you are a believing Christian. That would seem to

believing Christian. That would seem to be like an internal conflict. You don't

hear that. And to the extent you do, you hear that scientists of course can't be believing Christians because that's a conflict with science.

>> Yeah, I've heard that before. Uh uh I've never I've never felt the conflict.

Actually, my science makes me believe all the more. Uh because when I see things uh uh I understand it and it is amazing. I mean we we got this this

amazing. I mean we we got this this wooden table here and I know why this has the properties that it does. I mean,

when you have a tree, you can run a car right into the tree and the car is destroyed and the tree just stays there just fine. I mean, why is that? I know

just fine. I mean, why is that? I know

why this has the properties that it has because it has these carbohydrates, these polysaccharide strands that are held together by these hydrogen bonds and they will give a little bit. And so,

you have this this this amazing impact strength uh on a piece of wood. I mean,

the common man on the street doesn't know that. And I know that. And I I I'm

know that. And I know that. And I I I'm like, "God, you're amazing. This is this is just what an amazing piece of construction." I mean, you take a piece

construction." I mean, you take a piece of plastic, I mean, after 5 years of things starting to decompose, certainly after 10, and you can go around the world and you can see thousand-year-old

structures made out of wood, and the wood is still there. I mean, for God to have made a material like this, I I work in the area of material science, and so it it makes you look at God, you're

amazing. How do you do this? Then you

amazing. How do you do this? Then you

look at life, living entities. I mean,

how do you pull this thing off? We don't

know how to build like this. There's a

reason why we build robots out of out of plastic and wires and silicon rather than molecules. I mean, every time you

than molecules. I mean, every time you want to build something, what do you do?

You look you look at something that already does that and you mimic it.

Well, why don't we build our robots out of molecules, out of out of polysaccharides and polyeptides and and and lipids and and nucleic acids? Why

don't we build? Because that's what's demonstrated to us in nature. We we

would just copy it cuz we have in the fog idea. It's so hard to think about

fog idea. It's so hard to think about how you're going to build something out of molecules. So what do you do? You

of molecules. So what do you do? You

build it out of plastic. You build it out of silicon. You I mean the these basic four classes of components and I'm like God, how do you do this? This is

what I mean I it gives me much more appreciation for God when I see this as a scientist. Who who has this

a scientist. Who who has this understanding that I have? Nobody. I

mean, I look at a tree, I I see a leaf, and and I know why it's green, and I know why why why why uh uh uh I know that there's a magnesium atom sitting in the middle of a pferin, and photons are

funneled funneled light is funneled into that magnesium atom. It hits that magnesium atom, it ejects an electron, and that starts the photosynthesis process. So, it takes carbon dioxide,

process. So, it takes carbon dioxide, the things that we exhale, it uses the carbon to build the tree and then it takes the oxygen and releases us releases it for us to breathe. Nobody

else knows it. And and I look at a tree and I see that. I mean, I I I look at you, I know exactly what's happening with your eyes. I mean, there there's these bacterial these these rodopsin

type molecules that every time a photon of light hits your eye, this thing is changing its configuration and then it has to relax back. And and this is why you see the image of me. Every time you learn something about me, there's there

there it's it's just an electronic interaction. And then this is going to

interaction. And then this is going to protein synthesis. And then this protein

protein synthesis. And then this protein synthesis as you go to sleep tonight, it'll turn into hardwired interconnects in your brain. Who knows this but a scientist. And you give glory to God.

scientist. And you give glory to God.

This is amazing. It It's interesting though because I think many scientists would describe the properties of a tree as you just did and wind up worshiping the tree.

Yeah, I I Yeah, it's unfortunate that happens. I mean, it's like GK Chesterton

happens. I mean, it's like GK Chesterton said, when you stop believing in God, you you you you don't stop believing in everything. You start believing in

everything. You start believing in anything. I mean, so you think this tree

anything. I mean, so you think this tree is your god. I mean, it's so so uh um uh yeah, it it's really unfortunate, but you know, I think scientists sometimes

give an image on the outside that's not really what's on the inside. I've many

times sat with them and I say, "Do do you really understand life? Do you understand how this thing

life? Do you understand how this thing works? Do you understand what's going on

works? Do you understand what's going on here? Do you do do you understand how

here? Do you do do you understand how these things came about?" I've never had a scientist say to me, "Oh, yeah. No

problem. I understand this.

We have a we have a pretty good grasp on this thing." Never. Never in private.

this thing." Never. Never in private.

Never in private. They'll never say that. I've had people say, "Jim, look, I

that. I've had people say, "Jim, look, I I hear you. Don't quote me, but I I'm with you on this thing." And so, so, uh, I think the vast majority of them agree with me, but they don't say it.

>> So, without even getting far, I mean, I want to get to the core question, which is what is life and how is it created?

But before we get there, >> yeah, >> what you're what you just said makes sense. Of course, there's no evidence

sense. Of course, there's no evidence anyone really understands any of this, but why not just admit that?

Uh I sometimes the community is not very warm when you admit that sort of thing.

You get exclude excluded from certain societies from certainmies when you start speaking like that when you don't tow the party line.

>> Um uh scientists are just like everybody else. We we want to allay our fears and

else. We we want to allay our fears and and be part of the crowd and be part of the group and so um we say things. But I

thought that science required well honesty above all and an admission that you know you don't know something and then a declaration that you do if you think you do etc etc but you always have to kind of come back to what you know so

why wouldn't you admit when you don't know so you thought that I did think that I was I was told that in school >> yeah so so um >> sorry I actually only learned during co that

wasn't true but I didn't know that >> yeah yeah many people learned during co that wasn't true and scientists have lost a lot of credibility and rightly

so. It needed to be lost because we're

so. It needed to be lost because we're not very honest about many things. A lot

of times we'll see things and I think that we will keep uh preaching the same thing and and underscoring and it and it's you have this ancestral sort of

relationship in the sense of it's peer review and if the paper you're reviewing uh seems to come against and discount some of the things that you have been

saying your whole career and it's very easy to nyx that paper and to say I don't think this paper should be published and to give reasons why it shouldn't be published. So, so if you if

you if you want to get grant money, you you need to say certain things and and uh it's very hard to come with a with something that's going to shake up a field, it's very easy to to come in with

a with small developments, but to something that's going to shake up a field, that's very hard to do. The

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then you wind up, I think, destroying the system if you don't adhere to like the basic precept, which is science is about telling the truth. It's a process designed to make sure we're telling the truth. That's my read of it anyway.

truth. That's my read of it anyway.

Well, I don't I don't think I don't think that any scientists go into this thing with dishonesty >> on their forefront. You know, they don't wake up in the morning, I'm I'm going to write something false today, >> right?

>> I don't think they do. And and uh we all get brought up in this in this educational system where we're taught something. And then as we start

something. And then as we start researching this and we start saying, "Hey, this is not exactly right. I I

don't I don't see exactly what you're saying. That bothers people. And I mean,

saying. That bothers people. And I mean, I can give you examples of this. Many

times I've I've challenged the the community. I mean, show me where I'm

community. I mean, show me where I'm wrong on this. Show me. And nobody will come forward. I mean, I have specific

come forward. I mean, I have specific examples. I said, I I've even gone so

examples. I said, I I've even gone so far as to say, I I don't understand the chemistry behind the evolutionary process. I mean,

you'll talk generalities. If you want to fly over 30,000 ft and look down, okay, you can describe it, but tell me about the chemistry. Tell me about the

the chemistry. Tell me about the molecular interactions that are going to have to occur, the changes at the molecular level and how that happens.

You would think my colleagues would say, "No problem, Jim. Let's go out to lunch and I'll I would think that actually I'll I'll tell you how it happens. I'll

tell you what happens."

But they don't they don't they they don't tell me how it happens. It's very

rare. only one colleague in my whole career had from from uh uh uh uh the Washington University in St. Louis

reached out to me and he tried to explain to me. We got together. I flew

out there. I mean, this is how badly I wanted to know. Talk to me about the chemistry behind this evolutionary process cuz I'm just not getting it. And

I spent two days with him and we got a room there in his building and and he just took me through it. And I I appreciated him his taking the time, but I still walked away not really seeing

the chemistry, but I appreciated his trying. That's You flew to St. Louis to

trying. That's You flew to St. Louis to

hear this for two days.

>> Okay. I'm I I don't want to take us off track and I will get back to the question of evolution and what do we know and what don't we know, but can we start at the beginning which is with life? What is life?

life? What is life?

>> Well, what is life is is not answered by science. M

science. M >> there are the characteristics of life.

What is life is probably something much better explained in the Bible. You

behold and you say uh you know h human life is this way. It's pretty corrupt and uh um it's fairly weak. It rebelss

against God. I mean this is this is the what is life question. But but the characteristics of life is is that it's responsive to the environment. It has

growth and change. It has metabolism. It

breathes. has homeostasis. It's made of cells and it passes on traits to offspring. Those are the characteristics

offspring. Those are the characteristics of life. That's very well defined by

of life. That's very well defined by science. And now you see scientists

science. And now you see scientists trying to change those definitions and give it a much smaller number of those things. So it's

something that they can claim that they have made, but what they've made is just a bunch of nonsense. It's made it's really not life at all. It's things

people have seen for a long time. It's

just really not life. I mean, show show me show me the homeostasis. Homeostasis

is is a is a constant internal state.

So, if you go outside on a freezing cold day, your body has to maintain its body temperature. And not just your body,

temperature. And not just your body, every cell in your body has to maintain a proper temperature, proper pH balance, proper proton interactions, has to still

make ATP, still has to carry out all of these functions. That's homeostasis. all

these functions. That's homeostasis. all

of these vast number of things that hap have to happen. You show me any one of your synthetic garbage that you say is a is a cell and show me the homeostasis in this. It's not there. Show me the

this. It's not there. Show me the metabolism here real. Show me that it breathes. Show show me what it's doing

breathes. Show show me what it's doing with oxygen. Show show me it's not

with oxygen. Show show me it's not there. And so so this is the

there. And so so this is the characteristics of life. And we every cell has it has to be made of cells.

This has always been a characteristic of life has to be made of cells. So, we see this in every cell, but we don't know how to mimic it.

>> I had no idea there was an effort underway to change the definition of life. Who was behind that effort, and

life. Who was behind that effort, and what's the point of it?

>> Uh, origin of life researchers, where they want to claim that what they've done in their laboratory has made life. And sometimes they'll use

made life. And sometimes they'll use these words, a code word. Here's some

protolife.

Well, what does that mean? And then you see it ramped up in the in the lay press. Scientists have created life

press. Scientists have created life science. And it's really quite simple,

science. And it's really quite simple, you know.

This is what they'll say. And and uh it's really simple. I mean, even even articles from 2025 are claiming that scientists finally figured out how to make life. It it's nonsense. These

make life. It it's nonsense. These

scientists say these sort of things. So,

I mean, I've challenged them. I said I said any of you can come on my podcast and and and tell me about this or if you're afraid that I'll doctor it somehow we'll go on your podcast or

we'll get a neutral party podcast. You

would think that there would be lots of origin of life scientists that would come forward and and they say I said you can't even hook two amino acids together. You can't even take the amino

together. You can't even take the amino acids D and K and hook them together without the side chains interfering. You

can't even took hook two molecules of glucose together, let alone a polysaccharide with with with with proper uh attachment using using

prebiotic chemistry. You can't do it. Am

prebiotic chemistry. You can't do it. Am

I the only one seeing this? If I'm

wrong, come on my channel and tell me how this is done. And none of them will come on. You say, "Well, they haven't

come on. You say, "Well, they haven't seen my challenge." No, I I also emailed them. I also emailed them. I said, "Come

them. I also emailed them. I said, "Come on on. Come on. Talk about this." None

on on. Come on. Talk about this." None

of them will come forward. One said,

"Oh, I could explain to you these things in an hour." I said, "Okay, I will come to you. I will come to you, your

to you. I will come to you, your institute. I will come to you and I will

institute. I will come to you and I will sit there for an hour. You explain it to me." I said, "I'll even sit there all

me." I said, "I'll even sit there all day and I won't ask any questions unless I don't understand something. I won't

challenge you. I'll just listen." He

said, "I'm too busy for that."

I mean, so this is a this is a game now.

>> So, what um what are they pointing to when they say we've created life? Yeah,

they they're pointing to their 40 years of career where they've been saying we're on the verge of making life. I

mean, there are people that are doing this that that that they say that they're on the verge of making life. I

mean, Jack Sausc, who was a professor at Harvard, now he's at the University of Chicago, Nobel Prize winner, said in 2014 to a gathering in New York, a gathering of lay people in New York,

that he will have life in his lab in 3 to 5 years. That was in in 2014. Guess

what? He missed his deadline. and and uh then then years later he now says, you know, we're still working on trying to get the RNA. Just trying to get RNA. He

hasn't even made RNA. From RNA to life is a is is a chasm that that's that's a universewide.

He hasn't even made the RNA yet. He was

making claims to the lay public that he'd have life in his lab in in in uh in in 3 to 5 years. And then Dematar Cesilov, a a astrophysicist from Harvard, said, "Well, uh it's not

going to be three to five. It's probably

more like like like five and not three.

He said at the same gathering, well, guess what? He missed his deadline. I

guess what? He missed his deadline. I

mean, Jack uh uh Steve Benner Steve Benner has said said on podcast, he says that that uh uh most of the many of the that's exactly most of the many of the paradoxes in origin of life have been

solved. Like none of them have been

solved. Like none of them have been solved. Zero. Zero have been solved. In

solved. Zero. Zero have been solved. In

his own mind, they are solved. And and

and I challenge him on it. I said, "What is solved? You said that they've been

is solved? You said that they've been solved. what is soft? Tell me about

solved. what is soft? Tell me about this. And he had no answer for me. I

this. And he had no answer for me. I

mean, I walked up to the guy. I saw him come to a gathering. I walked right up to him and said, "Explain it to me." And

and uh uh so he he has made these sort of comments. Uh uh uh Lee Cronin,

of comments. Uh uh uh Lee Cronin, another origin of life researcher, has said that that uh uh within within a couple of years, he said in in 2011, within a couple of years, he would have

made life in his laboratory. Guess what?

He missed his deadline. They're nowhere

close. Nowhere close. So, so yeah, and and then this goes from their mouths when they say this sort of thing to the press which ramps it up and then it goes into the textbooks and it's in all of

our textbooks, not just in elementary school, even to the advanced graduate level, not introductory graduate, advanced graduate level textbooks in biochemistry talk about the same sort of

nonsense.

So creating life would be taking something that's inorganic that we can all agree is not alive and then turning into something that meets the criteria you described for life.

You say there are paradoxes in the origin of life itself and they haven't answered any of what are those paradoxes and you have to have four classes of compounds. So there's four classes of

compounds. So there's four classes of compounds that that build us. You have

the lipids which surround every one of our cell structure. You have the polysaccharides. This is the sugars

polysaccharides. This is the sugars hooked together. This is our energy

hooked together. This is our energy sources. And some of these act as as

sources. And some of these act as as channels through which ions can flow.

You have the nucleotides which are RNA and DNA. And then you have the

and DNA. And then you have the polyeptides which are proteins and our our uh um our enzymes, the little things that construct our body.

Nobody has ever made those polymers, any classes, any of those by a prebiotic root. By prebiotic root, I mean using

root. By prebiotic root, I mean using the chemicals and techniques that would have been available on an early Earth.

That means prebiotically. Can we make some of those structures synthetically in a laboratory? Absolutely, we can do this. Normally, what we'll do is we'll

this. Normally, what we'll do is we'll take a cell and deconstruct it and then rebuild the pieces as we want. Not only

can we not make the polymers of these, we can't even make the individual units of these in a prebiotically relevant manner. Each of these has

manner. Each of these has stereochemistry. And people will say,

stereochemistry. And people will say, well, what about the Miller Yuri experiment in 19 in in 1953?

The Miller Yuri experiment made several of the amino acids just by taking sparks and and and this this reducing environment and and having certain gases

in there. And they found amino acids.

in there. And they found amino acids.

Nobody has ever been able to take that type of mixture and do anything useful with it because the the molecules don't have handedness. Molecules can come in

have handedness. Molecules can come in in two forms, a right hand, a right-handed and a left-handed version.

Almost all biological molecules >> molecules have handedness.

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all the difference. They ju just just as if you look at your left hand and your right hand, these are mirror images of each other. If you hold your left hand

each other. If you hold your left hand up to a mirror, you will see what looks like your right hand. If you hold your right hand up to the mirror, what you'll see is what looks like your left hand.

The two are not the same. And you know that when you try to put on a glove, the glove doesn't fit right. And so they have this mirror image relationship.

Almost all biological molecules have a mirror image relationship.

So when they will use a prebiotic method to make these molecules, they only get the mixture. Biology can only run on

the mixture. Biology can only run on one. It can't run on the mixture of

one. It can't run on the mixture of them. It's hard to get one. Are there

them. It's hard to get one. Are there

modern techniques to do this?

Absolutely. Are there any techniques that could mimic what went on on an early Earth? Nowhere close. Nowhere

early Earth? Nowhere close. Nowhere

close. And people say it happened on a chyro surface. People have tried this on

chyro surface. People have tried this on chyro surfaces. They've never gotten

chyro surfaces. They've never gotten good handiness qualities. Never. So we

don't even know how to make the basic building blocks of the building blocks that make us. We don't know how to polymerize them. We don't know. And then

polymerize them. We don't know. And then

even if we had them, we wouldn't know what to do. So for example, you can take a cell, a living cell, and you can deconstruct it. You can take it apart.

deconstruct it. You can take it apart.

Yes. and you put in in each bottle each one of these four classes of compounds and all the ions in another bottle and say okay not on an early earth but just in your modern laboratory can you take

all of these chemicals and just make a cell here's all the components of a cell and in fact in here you also have theformational code you have to have the code the code is the DNA that prescribes

how this is going to be assembled just like when you when you build a house you have to have a code you have to have the plans to build this thing that that that

code is is what you need. And so when I give you the polymers in full form, that's the informationational code because that's the sentence. The DNA,

that's the code, that's the sentence that has you the in the discrete molecules before you polymerize them.

That's just letters. It's like a bunch of letters, alphabetic letters. That

means nothing. That has no words. And

and those don't come together and form any any construct of words. If you shake it a lot, you might see the word th you might find the word in, but

you're not going to get much. You're not

going to get much out of this. And and

we you have to have a lot of prescription here. So I give you all of

prescription here. So I give you all of this in your modern laboratory. And I've

challenged the entire origin of life community with this. I'll give you everything. Can you just assemble a

everything. Can you just assemble a cell? And I've given you the code

cell? And I've given you the code because I've given you the DNA structure. Just assemble a cell. Can any

structure. Just assemble a cell. Can any

of you do it? Nobody's come forward. And

I say that the year that you do that, you will win a Nobel Prize for sure for doing that. Can you do it? Nobody can.

doing that. Can you do it? Nobody can.

We're nowhere close to that. Nowhere

close. So even if you could make all of these pieces, could you do something with it? And the answer is no. They

with it? And the answer is no. They

don't know what to do. And and a cell is is is an amazing machine. People will

say, "Well, cells were much simpler back then." Much simpler. No, we already know

then." Much simpler. No, we already know what the simplest cells are. First of

all, yeah, we know what the simplest cells are because the simplest cells that we have on Earth today are very similar to the cells in the fossil record. The simplest cells in the fossil

record. The simplest cells in the fossil record that hasn't changed, but bioysicists have already told us that you can calculate what is the simplest cell that you could have that could still be operable. They can calculate

this. All right, make one of those.

this. All right, make one of those.

Nowhere close that has like 15 basic components, structures that have to be made. How many of those 15 have been

made. How many of those 15 have been made in a prebi pre pre uh prebi prebiotic sense? How many of those have

prebiotic sense? How many of those have ever been made? Zero. None. None. None

of them have ever been made. We are so far from life. And people will say, "Oh, well, we're getting closer." No, we already know that we're nowhere close.

And the way you know in science that you know we're close is this. You look,

okay, how far am I from the target? This

is my target. This is where I am now.

So, I move a little bit closer. I

figured out something. But what's

happened is the target has moved miles away from us. The target has moved miles away. Just even though I moved a

away. Just even though I moved a nanometer closer here, every year the target moves further away. Why? Not

because the cell is evolving, but because we learn about the complexity of the cell. We go, "Oh, I have to make

the cell. We go, "Oh, I have to make that or I have to do that or I have to have the whole system level structure here that that that this whole system level structure to this. I have to have

something called chyroinduced spin selectivity which we didn't even know about until 25 years ago. I have to have the whole interact solved which we didn't know about until 20 years ago. So

these things become increasingly difficult to think about solving. It's

very hard to to think about solving this because the target is moving away from us fast much faster than we're approaching it. So if we don't

approaching it. So if we don't understand how to create life then I think it follows that we don't understand how life was created.

No, we have no idea how life was created. We have no idea. And and I I

created. We have no idea. And and I I mean the Bible tells us that God created it, but he doesn't give us much details, right?

>> He spoke it into existence. And what I mean, the beauty of science is that is that is that God has done things. God

has done certain things and then and then uh um he allows us then to investigate through science what are the details behind this. And that's what we're trying to do. We're trying to find the details.

We're clueless on this.

>> But there is a a very obvious sense in which the kind of research air quotes that you're describing um is like it's more than science. It's like trying to

kind of take credit for creation itself.

It's like putting yourself in the place of the creator. I mean if they could make life.

>> Yeah. if they could make life. You you

know the question then becomes why why are they projecting why are they projecting as if they're on the verge of making life or having made life.

>> I I think that's fundamentally why that the question that you're asking why.

Yeah. And and so so why would they do this is is uh uh um you know I I've often thought about this. I don't I don't think again I don't think scientists wake up in the morning and

and and say you know I I I got to somehow project that I'm I'm able to make life. You get caught up in this. It

make life. You get caught up in this. It

it's it's like you know there's mob mentalities that you get caught up in it. People can get caught up in a mob mentality very easily. you have noticed.

easily. you have noticed.

>> Yeah, we're quite susceptible to this type of thing and and uh uh what happens is you you hear people talking about this and that we're on the verge of making life or we've got this thing

figured out and there's more and more people that are coming on and they they feel that they need to speak like this too. uh uh but they're they're they're

too. uh uh but they're they're they're feel very uncomfortable sitting down with me for a discussion because I'm going to ask them the details and as soon as I ask them just a few little

details I'm not like a you know I'm not a hard interviewer that I'm I got you no I just ask them a few very simple little things and everything starts to wither around the edges and they know it they

know it they know they don't have an answer to this and these the these people I mean I mean these things have actually happened. I've seen it. Uh

actually happened. I've seen it. Uh

Steve Benner, major origin of life researcher. And you say, "Well, why am I

researcher. And you say, "Well, why am I calling them out by name?" Because

they're the ones bringing it forward.

Steve Benner can get on a podcast and tell me I'm all wrong and come forth with with with life. Just make life if you got this thing figured out. He said

that that they've got all the pieces.

They've got all pretty much got all the pieces figured out. And so I saw him at a meeting. Uh uh I didn't ask him,

a meeting. Uh uh I didn't ask him, somebody else did. said, "Okay, if you've got all the pieces, why don't you just put it together and make a sale?"

And what he said is, "Well, I've been a professor now for for four score years, and so I'll leave this to the younger guys to do." I mean, this is a total

copout. Total copout. This is the level

copout. Total copout. This is the level that we're at. And people, oh, okay, nice guy. He's going to leave it to

nice guy. He's going to leave it to other people to get the glory. I mean,

he can't do it. Nobody can do it. Is

cloning making life? What is cloning exactly? And where are we in the

exactly? And where are we in the >> No, no, no. With with cloning, you start with life. You start with life. You're

with life. You start with life. You're

never making life. So So you never make that original cell. You take cells and and you start duplicating them or or you you take a cell and you can put in other

genetic structure into that cell and then that that genome will start start duplicating from there. So that you can start doing and I think that's coming along. Certainly they do it with pets. I

along. Certainly they do it with pets. I

mean, you just saw this uh Tom Brady just had his dog cloned. I mean, he had a dog he really loved and so he just got a dog cloned. I mean, there there are

these companies that will do it for you.

>> Um, well, it you know what's going it's going to be next people is what I think about. You know, I'm I'm really not that

about. You know, I'm I'm really not that concerned about the dog, but uh uh when you can start doing it with people and you can start making a superhuman race,

I mean, that that that is deeply concerning to me. You know, it's interesting. You think about this. If if

interesting. You think about this. If if

you have you you you you can have you have this fertilized egg and

it seems as if this is life. This egg is now fertilized. And God puts a spirit

now fertilized. And God puts a spirit in this. Now, sometimes this egg will

in this. Now, sometimes this egg will split into two. And now you have identical twins.

And if there was a spirit there, it's like God puts another spirit in that other egg as well that is just formed.

They just split off this first one because you get two independent entities that are identical twins. And they each have a spirit, the spirit of God that he's placed within them, that he's put

this this spirit within them. They've

been made in the image of God. So when

you think about it in this context, you see that that God seems to put a spirit along with that physical that that physical fertilized system. There seems

to be a spirit there that he puts along with it.

What would he do now that you have a cloned system? My guess is there'll be a

cloned system? My guess is there'll be a spirit along with it.

But you you talk about uh uh things that you can do. So if if if I could if I could take steroids and be 10% faster than anybody else, I mean that's that's

a huge advantage. If I could take some sort of drug and be 20% smarter than everybody else, that is a huge advantage. And we would say, you know,

advantage. And we would say, you know, that's that's unfair. You know, we c we can't have that in sports. We can't have that in competition. But you could do that. You could do that. I mean, you

that. You could do that. I mean, you could you could make things, people, animals that are that are advanced. Um,

it's kind of frightening because you know what people would do with such a thing? You know, every technology has

thing? You know, every technology has advances. People say, "Aren't you afraid

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>> It's increasingly obvious what's in all men. I would say it's such a change and

men. I would say it's such a change and advances in biotech get relatively little publicity outside of biotech, outside of the specialized world you guys live in.

>> But my understanding is we're moving close to what you're saying.

And that's that's something that at 56 I was worried about my whole childhood.

Like one of the lessons of World War II is creepy race science is like bad. It's

immoral. You shouldn't be doing stuff like that. I mean, I remember hearing

like that. I mean, I remember hearing that in school and like nodding along and yeah, that's good. And it does seem like we're there are a lot of well-funded people trying to build like

I hate to use a phrase master race but like people who are engineered to be over everyone else and that just seems like a huge problem or am I letting my

imagination get away with me? Well, I I mean there there's massive restrictions upon that type of thing in the United States for government funded research

and I don't as as far as I know that's not going on in the United States, but there are nations around the world where there's no inhibition on this type of

thing. So, so um I wouldn't be surprised

thing. So, so um I wouldn't be surprised if they're already there. I mean, if you can clone a dog, um, we're not that far from from doing this as well with

>> And what would that look like?

>> Well, you you you you could make them look all identical if you wanted to, or you could make them a little bit different. Um, they they would be

different. Um, they they would be superhuman in many ways. I I I wouldn't think that you would want to make an infirmed race.

>> No, that's right.

>> Yeah, they'd be superhuman. And um

>> Yeah. Yeah. It's it's it's an interesting now I don't work in that area but uh uh we can't be far from that. Now now there there are many good

that. Now now there there are many good advances that can come from this. So if

you have a child with a genetic disorder >> for sure >> you you you you the prospect of saying look to see a doctor and the doctor says don't worry we can take care of that. I

mean imagine what that would do to a parent. They'd be like you can take care

parent. They'd be like you can take care of my child. My child has autism. You

can you can just you can just spice out this segment and put in another segment where you just change a few of the nucleotides on there and he's going to be better. Yeah, we can do

that. I mean, the hope for that is so

that. I mean, the hope for that is so good. Or I'm predisposed to having

good. Or I'm predisposed to having breast cancer as many women find themselves in their families and they're >> there. I mean the horrendous thing is

>> there. I mean the horrendous thing is that we still lop off body parts in this day and age to deal with this and women even doing it preemptively >> and a lot of women

>> a lot of women and if you can say no no no we can deal with that that is tremendous hope and that's where most of this is going this that's why this is continuing to be developed to

offer these people hope are there things that you could do to to modify people yeah you can it could be abused it could definitely be abused And it's the same with many things. I

mean, a car can be an ambulance. A car

can be a getaway car from a from a murder and a bank robber. I mean,

everything is like that, >> right? But we, you know, we arrest the

>> right? But we, you know, we arrest the getaway car driver.

>> And I don't I that's the point. Of

course, everything, you know, chainsaw is a tool or a weapon. I get it.

>> Yeah.

>> Nitroglycerin. But I don't think we're making any effort as collectively to say, "Wait a second." Well, the scientific community is >> Okay, good.

>> Oh, it is. In in fact, there there there was there was uh there was an abuse of this that came out in China about 5

years ago, six years ago, and it was the kibash was put on this from the community.

>> What was the abuse? Uh uh there there was a a an operation where they they were taking human embryos, a human embryo and and modifying the genome a

little bit and they they said it was all much like they had done with with with with uh um uh uh with animals and and it

was done on a human and it came out and the professors I mean the Chinese professor I think was was eventually put in prison. I mean there was an huge

in prison. I mean there was an huge amount of pressure and the scientific community uh really came after the people people there was there was an American who was collaborating with them

and his career was was about ended as a result of this and uh and I knew him. I

mean he's a nice guy. I knew him. Yeah.

and and uh uh but it's about was about the end of his career and and I think there was a 5-year penalty that you couldn't get government funding again and which is going to toast a career

that's the end of the career uh for for an American academic um so so the community came strongly against that worldwide world worldwide biochemistry

community >> that's that's the one that got that made the news are the countries is doing this that it's not making the news. We can

only imagine.

>> Yeah, we can only imagine. I think we can guess.

>> Yeah.

>> Um, evolution.

You flew to St. Louis to hear about the chemistry of evolution. Can you just describe for people who are not uh in your business what the theory of

evolution is and then if you could tell us what you think is incomplete or wrong about it.

Well, you know, most of what I speak on is origin of life, which is before you have life. What evolution does is it

have life. What evolution does is it takes from that first cell, that first cell, and says, how do we get the diversity of what we have today from that first cell?

>> So most of or all of origin of life is getting to that first cell, Luca, it's called the last universal common ancestor. So that cell which happened to

ancestor. So that cell which happened to be the progenitor of all life and that cell then modified into the diversity of life that you see today. That's what

that's what evolution tries to >> adapting to its physical environment.

Right.

>> Adapt to its physical environment. Yes.

And and so so um to do that it's it's a huge huge leap. A

huge leap to have that cell go into the diversity of what we have. Now you talk about the the evolution. The the

definition of evolution is constantly evolving. Constantly evolving. It's

evolving. Constantly evolving. It's

constantly changing.

>> And and uh uh so what I grew up on was that it was it was uh natural selection and random mutation. Exactly. Random

mutation, natural selection. That's what

a lot of us grew up on. Uh what Darwin uh uh was talking about, he was talking about natural selection. and he knew less about the mutation aspect and then the mutation and natural selection is

what what pulled this forward.

>> So natural mutation is as I understand is the idea that you know you'll have like an anomaly and it turns out that anomaly is is better suited to the environment and so that creature that

organism is more successful in breeding and then that becomes the dominant strain.

>> Yes. And that that that that's what that is and then and then um uh and but there are two distinct things.

There's something called micro evolution and there's macroeolution. Micro

evolution we definitely see. We can see changes over time and say the the bill of a bird.

>> Mhm.

>> And you can see you can see what we do in my own lab because we work a lot with uh bacteria and trying to knock out super bacteria is that you can see uh

changes in bacteria to make them more antibiotic resistance. This is what we

antibiotic resistance. This is what we see that that that the these antibiotics don't work anymore and these are very small mutations that may happen very

small permutations.

>> More often than not what happens for example with a bacterium is that is that you will have a population of bacteria and you treat them with an antibiotic

and there's one or two in this huge population that happen to have some level of resistance. Those are the only two left and then they start to propagate. And so that's why if you've

propagate. And so that's why if you've ever been told to take these antibiotics, finish the whole regime, correct? Or else you leave the really

correct? Or else you leave the really strong ones, the really ones that are somewhat resistant and then they become the dominant population.

>> And so you really want to knock all of these out. And so so you see these and

these out. And so so you see these and then they start sharing their DNA between them. And bacteria are amazing.

between them. And bacteria are amazing.

They they even have these little tubules that they can transfer some of their DNA to another one. And and you see this and now you have a new population that that that is resistant.

>> That sounds like intent.

>> Oh, it sounds Yeah. I mean, these are insidious little things. I mean,

>> but what is that? I mean, that >> that is >> that sounds like behavior that suggests consciousness.

Well, many people actually say that there is consciousness within a cell for these very reasons that they they they act according to the things that are put upon them. You know, so this is a new

upon them. You know, so this is a new concept that's being put forward. It's

different than the consciousness that you and I think of course who am I? But

but but they are responding to their environment. Something has come at them

environment. Something has come at them and they've responded in in in in to try to get around this. So yeah, this is so so >> well that maybe consciousness is not the right word. Maybe consciousness is not

right word. Maybe consciousness is not the right word, but that word is being used anyway, right?

>> Yeah, it's being used. All right. So, so

you can see these small permutations, but what you never see never see are what is called body plan changes. Body

plan changes. And this encompasses many things, but but you you see the these these uh genetic uh uh networks would have to change. So, a body plan change

would be an invertebrae, something that does not have a spine, going to a vertebrae, something that has a spine.

Something like like a worm going into something that has a spine. You never

ever see that. You never see. Now, there

are hypotheses where people will see fossils and they'll say, "Oh, this must have been a precursor to this." They

will never see the transformative thing.

That is that is for sure. And I'm not the only person that is saying that.

It's not just Jim Tour the creationist saying this. And the problem with

saying this. And the problem with >> to be clear, the fossil record does not support the theory of evolution as at least as you're defining it.

>> Well, the yes, it does not support body plan changes. There are small

plan changes. There are small permutations like the ones that I have just told you, but you will not see body plan changes. It

plan changes. It >> is any fossil record that we found.

>> No, the the only thing that you will see is people will hypothesize over that fossil. They'll see a fossil here and a

fossil. They'll see a fossil here and a fossil here and they'll say, "Oh," and then they'll see a fossil here. This

must have been the transition to this, >> right?

>> And they'll hypothesize with that. But

it doesn't have to be the transition.

This is strictly a hypothesis. And so,

we don't see that in the fossil record.

Many people don't see that in the fossil record. Some people will say we

record. Some people will say we absolutely see that. The the absolute people are actually becoming less and less. The the problem with this in order

less. The the problem with this in order to have a body plan change you you you have you have to have the these these genetic networks these genetic networks

are going to have to change. So the

genetic networks occur very early on in life. This is the wiring that is going

life. This is the wiring that is going to occur to run this system. You clip

one wire it is catastro catastrophically lethal to the organism. It is lethal.

Everything goes haywire. And people will say this and there has never been an example of this where you can get into these early genetic networks and start changing things because if you change

one little thing you have to have many many downstream things. So it's not one little change can change this organism.

No no no no it's not going to happen.

Now we there have been experiments like like uh Linsky what what he's done is he's looked at bacteria. Bacteria can

can can multiply every 20 minutes, you know. So, so with a person, it might be

know. So, so with a person, it might be every 20 years. Bacteria multiply every 20 minutes. And this is why you can feel

20 minutes. And this is why you can feel fine right now and then after a few hours, you're like, "Wow, >> right, >> I feel terrible. I got to go home because this bacteria is is is doubling

doubling every 20 minutes. Doubling in

every 20 minutes. It doubles its population. That's what bacteria do."

population. That's what bacteria do."

And so he has studied since 1988 and continues to this day studying the multiplication of bacteria and putting it under certain stresses to see what's

going to evolve. He's never seen a body plan change. Nowhere close. The only

plan change. Nowhere close. The only

thing he's seen is a little change in a in a a a citrate operation. And and I've done a podcast on that with with uh one of my colleagues who is a who is a a a a

uh biologist and he talks about how that that change what was actually in the bacteria was already there and it just turned that gene back on. It was it's just a regulatory thing. But in any case

yet no body plan changes. We've never

seen the macro evolution, the body plan change. Never has been seen. And here we

change. Never has been seen. And here we had uh what was equivalent in bacteria to 2 million years of population changes. 2 million years. So we and and

changes. 2 million years. So we and and and we've never seen that. And so the what we see and we don't even see in the fossil record this. What we see is the Cambridge explosion. The Cambridge

Cambridge explosion. The Cambridge explosion.

the Cambrian Cambrian explosion is that you went from from uh uh about 540 million years ago is presumed when this thing happened is all of a sudden you

burst on the scene with all these new species, all these new life forms and it happened over a short period of time, a little over 500 million years ago is what the fossil record is suggesting.

You don't see transitional forms. You don't see transitional forms before they appear. They just appear as if God spoke

appear. They just appear as if God spoke it into existence as if God said uh let let these kind form there is an

explosion and even even firm people like like uh uh uh Steven Gould who was a staunch uh uh uh evolutionist said you know this thing just pops out here and

so he spoke about >> wait but doesn't that kind of blow up the theory right there >> yes it does it it it it gives evolution is is real, >> you get

>> then there would of course be a a gradual ramp up to that from a single cell >> and there is not and there is not and that's where he came up with this idea of what he called punctuated equilibrium everything is in stasis then all of a

sudden boom it happened and then it stays >> what does that mean punctuated that that was his definition of this so so I'm I'm not alone in this I mean I mean Lavine

Wagner uh uh Davidson uh Irwin uh the these these key biologists are saying the these these these genetic networks

are not going to allow body plan changes to happen. And so there's a big problem.

to happen. And so there's a big problem.

>> But how do they explain the Cambrian explosion?

>> Uh there is no explanation for that.

There's no explanation.

>> That seems like a big stumbling block of faith and evolution to me.

>> Yeah. So we should see this seamless transition >> if it were a gradual process. And in the Cambridge explosion, we we don't see that. There's this abrupt change, an

that. There's this abrupt change, an abrupt change where many new species burst forth. So, we don't see body plant

burst forth. So, we don't see body plant changes. So, you are absolutely right. I

changes. So, you are absolutely right. I

mean, I've I've seen some of the things that you've said. We certainly seen micro evolution. Now, that's why this

micro evolution. Now, that's why this this term evolution is is sort of a squealy sort of thing. You got to that that that uh um it depends on how you define this thing. We certainly see

micro evolution these small changes within a kind within a species you see these small >> but we don't see the creation of new species through evolution >> I I have to be careful of that because

sometimes in plants you can have a doubling of the genome so for some unknown reason and so in that in that sense you could say it is a new species that is formed. I I was thinking among

animals, >> right? And and you don't see and you

>> right? And and you don't see and you don't see the body plan change. You

don't see new digits coming. You don't

see new organs. You don't see unicellular going to multisellular organisms, which you would have to have a lot of. You have to have luca, this one cell going now to multisellular

organisms. This we don't see. And uh

again it gets back to this the the this regulatory uh uh gene genetic network. This

regulatory genetic network which is this whole wiring plan. It is extremely complex and you go monkeying with one thing in this and it and all of this is

formed very early on. And now once this thing is formed you you change this. I

mean I mean you you you've lost a digit.

It's huge and it's usually usually highly lethal. And again, I'm not the

highly lethal. And again, I'm not the only one saying this. People are going to say, "Well, Tor, you're a creationist. That's why you're saying

creationist. That's why you're saying this." No, I mean, what what are you

this." No, I mean, what what are you going to say to Davidson? What are you going to say to Lavine? What are you going to say to to Irwin? What are you going to say to Wagner? I mean, these are key guys that are saying exactly the

same thing. The the these these uh these

same thing. The the these these uh these regulatory gene uh networks are a huge problem. Well, it sounds like everyone's

problem. Well, it sounds like everyone's moving I mean toward your view toward creationism of some kind because if they're using the term design then that

of course implies a designer. Like how

do you get design without a designer?

>> Implies designer. I mean some people go far so far as to say it looks designed but of course it couldn't be. And and so they'll go as far as to say something.

>> Now we're getting into religious faith.

If they're telling me that they know something and that's the starting point against which they evaluate their observations, that's religious faith.

That's not science, is it?

>> Well, I I I I would agree with you. It

it it is a terrific problem for them.

It's a terrific problem and and the more we learn about the cell, the more we see that that this thing is an amazing entity and uh um it certainly looks

designed. So why is it given that at

designed. So why is it given that at best the orthodoxies around evolution that I grew up with or thought I grew up with to the extent I paid attention are

being questioned and haven't actually held up to scrutiny and and the knowledge that we've accumulated. Why is

it still considered like a dealiller to question evolution?

>> Yeah. So,

>> I bet I haven't checked your Wikipedia page, but I bet it's on there >> that you've questioned evolution.

>> Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. It's there. It's

there.

>> Good guess.

So um origin of life is is is a little thing compared to evolution.

Evolution, that's the holy cow. I mean,

that that's the thing you don't touch.

Evolution, there's so much around evolution. There's whole departments on

evolution. There's whole departments on evolutionary biology in in in every university, >> of course.

>> And I'm not I would never say we shouldn't we should stop teaching evolution. I would say that we need to

evolution. I would say that we need to teach the problems with evolution and put those upfront and all over so people can see the huge problems with this. Uh

each year we're learning more and it makes it more difficult. And I'm I'm going to be totally blasted for this thing and and there's going to be there'll be a hundred YouTube videos that are going to go and and and and try

to contest with this. But my position is getting stronger all the time. Show me

the molecular basis because I'm a chemist. I want to see the molecular

chemist. I want to see the molecular basis for this. Show me the molecular basis on how you can have gross body plan changes. As of right now, it is not

plan changes. As of right now, it is not there. Now, if somebody knows this, come

there. Now, if somebody knows this, come forward. take with take me through the

forward. take with take me through the chemistry that makes these vast body plan changes. I don't understand it. And

plan changes. I don't understand it. And

as a chemist, who better who should be able to understand this better than me?

I mean, who should be able to understand it better than me? Certainly not the biologist. The biologist doesn't talk at

biologist. The biologist doesn't talk at the at the chemical level. So, so maybe the biochemist maybe the biochemist would come forward and and show me the organic chemist the the molecular

pathway for how these body plan changes would occur.

>> And no one's no one's taking you up on that.

>> No, nobody's taking me up. And no,

nobody will. They'll make a bunch of YouTube videos, but they won't sit down and go through the chemistry involved.

>> So, the question is more philosophical than scientific, but like why the YouTube videos? Why the resistance? It

YouTube videos? Why the resistance? It

seems to me if you never mentioned your religious faith and I heard this, I would say, "That guy's a scientist. He's

making a completely rational case based on measurable observations."

And I wouldn't be mad at you. I'd be

like, "That's really interesting." But

people are mad at you and mad at anyone who questions this. What is that? Where

does that come from?

>> Well, I I I mean, let let me underscore it for you. I'm not I'm ba based on my record. I'm not just a regular

record. I'm not just a regular scientist. I think it I mean the numbers

scientist. I think it I mean the numbers came out a few years ago. I was in the 0.0001% of of scientists based on the metrics of

of how you determine accomplishments. Uh

uh something called H index something called a number of publications something called you know the number of citations and things like that. So so

you would think that I of all people should be able to understand this. And

why is it that I can't? Number one, why is it that that when I say that I can't, it causes such problems for people?

>> That's it right there. What is that?

>> Now, the YouTubers, they'll come forward and they'll start saying it. But the

expert scientists, the PhDs in this area, they don't they don't come forth and tell me the problems with this. They

don't come forward and show me the the the molecular pathway to this. The

people who really should know are not the ones coming forward. And the people who don't know, the people who know very little, they're the ones coming forward and saying this. That's the problem. Why

doesn't the community do this? You know,

you know, people have come with scientific ideas before and and and and that were that people thought was totally outlandish and then they've been proved wrong that that that Yeah, they were outlandish.

>> The whole history of science is that.

>> Yeah. And and so why is it that they won't come forward?

>> So and and and I can tell you part of the problem is they cut your funding and they they they make it very difficult for you. You don't get into their

for you. You don't get into their societies anymore.

>> But but what's that? I mean I know very little about science as I'm I'm sure is obvious. I know a lot about lying and

obvious. I know a lot about lying and propaganda. And I know that when you see

propaganda. And I know that when you see a lot of it, there's something underneath it that is being protected.

There's a reason of all the things to be mad about. someone quote denying

mad about. someone quote denying evolution, denying like you're denying the Holocaust. I mean, really, it's a

the Holocaust. I mean, really, it's a moral crime. I mean, they frame it like

moral crime. I mean, they frame it like you've committed like a crime. You're

not just >> um what is that? Like, why do they care so much? There's something underneath

so much? There's something underneath all of this that's very important if they're defending it with this level of viciousness. I

viciousness. I >> I agree. That might be better for a philosopher to answer. When I think about the human beings that I know is is

that is first of all they've made their career around this thing. Our textbooks

are built totally around this thing.

This is all people know. This is all people know and and uh uh it puts people in a position of power. We know this sort of thing and uh um and it is it is

frightening to people. So So in in my career, I've seen things cut. I've seen

grants cut. I've I've been I've had two people from two different federal agencies, two different federal agencies come to my office because they did not even want to put this in an email to me.

And they said, "You >> what?"

>> what?" >> Yes. They said, "Jim, you can stop

>> Yes. They said, "Jim, you can stop writing proposals because they're never going to fund you. They're never going to fund you in this agency. You're not

going to get funded." And uh I I've even had a proposal that was that that got a very high score and And uh um and then I I called the program director and I

said, 'What what happened? This was the what happened? I mean, at this score,

what happened? I mean, at this score, this should have been funded. He says,

"You weren't funded." It was a shock to him. Someone above him nixed this. So,

him. Someone above him nixed this. So,

are there are there power brokers on this now? Now, uh uh so two federal

this now? Now, uh uh so two federal agency people told me I can stop writing proposals to their >> because you had questioned the orthodoxy on evolution.

>> Correct.

man >> because I had public it was it was even more specific than than that in in around the year 2000 uh I had signed a

statement that was put out that's that questioned that that it was carefully worded and this was sent to me in an email you know how fast you go through emails you

>> I got an email said could you agree to this statement that that uh um uh we view random mutation and natural selection as

being inadequate to explain uh uh the diversity of life. Therefore, further

research is warranted. That's it. It

didn't say it's wrong. It just said we were skeptical of of of of this simple little thing being able to explain the diversity of life. Further research is

warranted. Now, scientists will always

warranted. Now, scientists will always say always say further research is that scientist and because this is how we get our money. We wouldn't say, "Well, got

our money. We wouldn't say, "Well, got this figured out.

>> No, no, you take it back. I'm good. You

don't need the money." No, no. We always

say that because I signed that statement, because of that statement, these things started happening. Uh, it

was in 2005.

Uh, I, you know, I was never being put up for the National Academy of Science.

And I went to my colleagues. Your

colleagues are supposed and uh uh now no now uh there was one person was in the they were both in the National Academy of Science. They were the ones that are

of Science. They were the ones that are supposed to be putting me up for this.

One of them was a Nobel Prize winner.

And the other one was was wasn't a Nobel Prize winner, but he was in the National Academy. And uh and just ju just so that

Academy. And uh and just ju just so that your audience knows it was not Rick Smallley. Rick Smallley was a good

Smallley. Rick Smallley was a good friend of mine a Nobel Prize winner. So

it was not him. It's two other people.

And they told me, "Jim, you're not going to get in the National Academy of Science because you signed that statement." I said, "What state? What

statement." I said, "What state? What

are you talking about?"

That statement that came to me in an email and they said, "Could you agree to this?" I said, "Sure, I could agree to

this?" I said, "Sure, I could agree to that.

>> Who wouldn't agree to that?"

>> So, so I I said to this this one, the one who was a Nobel Prize winner and this other I said, "You know, I have done as much as anybody getting into the

academy." And the one Nobel Prize winner

academy." And the one Nobel Prize winner said, "No, Jim, you've done done as much. You've done twice as much and

much. You've done twice as much and you're not getting in twice as much." So

So that is real. Now I'm in the National Academy of Engineering >> because of that statement.

>> Because of that statement. That's what

they said. And I said I said to them, "What is it on this statement that you don't like?" Neither of them knew what

don't like?" Neither of them knew what the statement said. I said, "Okay, you guys go back and read it and you come back and see me and we'll discuss it again. We reconvened. They went and they

again. We reconvened. They went and they read it. They said, "Well, it was

read it. They said, "Well, it was carefully crafted." I said, "Well, duh.

carefully crafted." I said, "Well, duh.

You ain't You're not going to get people to sign something that's not carefully crafted." I said, "What is it?" They

crafted." I said, "What is it?" They

said, "Well, that statement has been used to try to get creationism in schools." I said, "That had nothing to

schools." I said, "That had nothing to do with me." I mean, that's Oh, man.

You're living my life. Um, yes, I know.

>> Those words have been used by other people at other times to do something bad. Therefore, your connection to them

bad. Therefore, your connection to them proves your connection to the bad people. I see.

people. I see.

>> Yeah, I've been there. Uh, so I'm looking at this and I'm thinking without understanding any of the details, there's a big story here because we can judge the importance of something by the

reaction to it.

We must suppress this idea. If enough

people say that, I want it doesn't mean that idea is right. Of course, it doesn't. But I want to know what the

doesn't. But I want to know what the idea is because it's provoking such a reaction. And I don't think I've heard

reaction. And I don't think I've heard many ideas that have provoked the kind of reaction you're describing. I mean

this is amazing. So it makes you think once for the third time underneath all of this is something really big and it's bigger than funding and it may be that if evolution as we understand it

macroevolution is not the explanation for what we're seeing then there must be a a creator. It points to God. That's

maybe that's the problem.

>> I think that may be the big problem. And

and and one one of the data points I have on this is that people see my content where I start blowing apart origin of life and I start questioning

evolution and they write to me. They

said, you know, I walked away from my faith because of what I was learning in high school and in college and now I see you saying what you're saying and I see

these guys don't have it figured out.

I'm coming back.

>> Yeah. I'm coming back to my faith. And

I've had a lot of people tell me that they've seen what I have to say and they're coming back to faith.

>> Could it be then from what you just said that evolution as it's been described to us in school for the last hundred years was has been employed as a weapon against religious faith.

>> I think it certainly has been employed as a weapon. Uh uh I don't think I don't think a lot of scientists go out with that intent.

>> I I believe it. Right. Right. And

Darwin, you know, probably didn't try to overturn Christianity when he wrote about the Beagle or whatever, but >> or I don't know, maybe he did, but it has in effect been used that way. It

sounds like to me, >> it seems like it's drawn a lot of people astray now. And I and I will tell you

astray now. And I and I will tell you that that that some of the people who used to come against me on campus were the biologists were the biologists. They

came against me and I and I I the students would say, "Oh, the such and such biologist is saying these things."

And I said, "Okay, well, why don't you go and tell her that I would be glad to go toe-to-toe with her and she can explain to me what her trouble is with

what I say." And then she stopped. She

stopped saying things about me like that. And so, so, uh, um, really when

that. And so, so, uh, um, really when when you when you come right to this, uh, uh, I don't think that they can defend it. I mean, ask them you if we

defend it. I mean, ask them you if we don't have a molecular basis for this, if we don't have a molecular explanation, if you fly over New York City at 30,000 ft, you can say, "Oh,

there's a few structures." But it's when you get down into the heart of that city, it's when you get under that city and you see the infrastructure on all the tubes and the thing makes that's the that's the chemical basis behind this.

We have to have a chemical understanding for this. And they will not give me a

for this. And they will not give me a chemical understanding. That's when I

chemical understanding. That's when I know there's a problem.

>> It's just funny. Maybe they're punishing you for that. I mean, you're not the one at fault here. I I wouldn't say you you ask a simple question. Can you provide the chemical basis for the theory that you're telling me is true, and they can't, and you're the criminal? How's

that work?

>> Yeah. It shakes up the apple cart. Yeah.

Yeah. And and plus these people, their whole career has been on this. I mean,

>> well, I've had a lot of careers that were totally stupid. And when you find out that you're on the wrong side of something, you just say so and move on.

I don't understand. Why would you cling to something that you can't defend?

>> Um, you're a different sort of man. I

mean this >> I think most people would think that makes sense, right?

>> Uh, no. No. I I think people live live lies all the time.

>> They live lies all the time that that um uh and and then they just move on. They

just move on. But I I I think it's it's a real problem now. Now, uh we'll see what the community says. I mean, just come on forth. Give me give me the h how do you how did they deal with these

regulatory genetic networks? How do they deal with this? How do they deal with this at the molecular level? How do

these changes occur? How do you get body plan changes? I mean, you you would

plan changes? I mean, you you would think that they'd come forward. All

they've got to do is just come forward and explain this thing to me. Not on a podcast where nobody's going to challen me. Explain. Go to go to a whiteboard.

me. Explain. Go to go to a whiteboard.

Go to a blackboard and just start drawing it out for me. Show me the chemistry. Nobody wants to do this. This

chemistry. Nobody wants to do this. This

is what I've challenged people before in origin of life. They won't go near a blackboard. Won't go near it. Oh, I

blackboard. Won't go near it. Oh, I

don't need a blackboard. I'll just

explain. No, show me the science and any other thing related to chemistry. You go

to the blackboard, you draw the molecules and show me this is how you do it. This is our language. This is the

it. This is our language. This is the language we speak. And now you don't want to use the language.

>> No, use the language of censorship and exclusion to get you to be quiet. Again,

a familiar pattern. So, um, since you've basically described an unsolved mystery, nobody can really say how, you know, the

Earth began, life originated, and we wound up with this sort of breathtaking array of different forms of life.

That's a mystery. They claim it's not, but I think you're you've shown that it is. What are the other things that we

is. What are the other things that we don't know? like as you sort of gaze

don't know? like as you sort of gaze over what we know, what scientists have determined to be true, like what are the big gaps? Like do we know what sleep is

big gaps? Like do we know what sleep is for? That's the one I've always

for? That's the one I've always wondered.

>> Uh you know, I'm again I'm I'm I'm not a biologist, but I I've read a little bit about the studies that, for example, DARPA has studied this where they tried to make it where soldiers wouldn't have to sleep, right?

>> Can we make it so that they don't have to sleep? And then what what happens is

to sleep? And then what what happens is long-term memory goes away. So a lot of our memory is is is strengthened when we sleep. That's why I said early on in our

sleep. That's why I said early on in our conversation when I first speak to you what you're getting this this is electronic. I mean this is you're

electronic. I mean this is you're getting an understanding of it electronically. And then this goes into

electronically. And then this goes into protein synthesis. Then proteins start

protein synthesis. Then proteins start forming to give you the memories of what I just said. And then when you go to sleep, those will start to strengthen and you'll get hardwired interconnects

in your brain.

>> Yes.

>> So that so that the rest of your life you might remember this conversation that hey there was this chemist that you know 20 years ago was telling me this and I still remember him his telling me this. That's a hardwired inter

this. That's a hardwired inter interconnect in your brain that is is locked in there. You lose that when you don't sleep. You lose the ability to

don't sleep. You lose the ability to have that. And so there are these things

have that. And so there are these things that strengthen in our sleep. So there's

a lot going on in our sleep uh um that that is is uh that I mean there's experts in sleep that that know this much better than than than I do. And I'

I've talked with them at times. It's

really really quite interesting how they they study these brain waves and how how when you when you when you really start when you start sleeping you have all

these different waves in going but then when you sleep everything starts going in unison and everything starts resonating in unison. The explanation of really what's happening is we may not

have a detailed explanation. But

>> are there other parts of the human experience or of nature that you look at and say that we should understand that

but we don't know anything about it >> uh of natural systems. I look at at so many things in nature that I don't understand. So I the the the entire

understand. So I the the the entire thing of anatomy even the anatomy of a of a cell is is is where I ponder all the time. I

mean how how can this be? How does this thing work? How do you build a structure

thing work? How do you build a structure like this? How does this anything in

like this? How does this anything in biology is is so extraordinary? It's

something we can't go near. Now, I could try to duplicate the material of this table, and I I would build it out of a a

a composite of of of a plastic of a of a say say um a a a nylon plus plus carbon nano tubes, make

it really strong. So, I could try to substitute it out. But to think of building the structure of this, no, nobody nobody can really fathom how amazing this is. I mean, we know what it is. It's it's it's these carbohydrate

is. It's it's it's these carbohydrate strands and the and the these alignments between them. Again, this is biology.

between them. Again, this is biology.

So, biology is is there's a lot of mis mystery to biology. There there are whole courses, there are whole textbooks. So, we understand a lot, but

textbooks. So, we understand a lot, but there's much more that we don't understand about about even this human experience. I had seen a talk. So, for

experience. I had seen a talk. So, for

example, do you know this feeling?

Somebody's sitting behind you and staring at you.

>> Yes.

>> And you get this feeling that somebody's staring at me.

>> Yes. And people will explain this. Well,

this has been good. You know, uh uh these organisms get it because when when prey was staring you down, you would know it and you would know to run.

>> All right. Well, well, okay, fine. You

want to explain it that way, but that doesn't tell me how this is happening.

How something behind my head that I cannot see, that I cannot hear, that I cannot feel, they're 20 yards behind me, but I know

they're staring at me. And I'm like, I want to look back at them and and and and see what's going on. These phenomena

are are hard to understand. What might I might be able to manipulate? Can I

manipulate something with my mind? Why

is it that when when a child goes through something that a mother senses this?

>> Yes.

>> They they they don't. My child is struggling. There's been no word. Have

struggling. There's been no word. Have

they called you? No. I I I just know something's going on. How does a mother know this? So there there there's a lot

know this? So there there there's a lot of phenomena that we just don't understand. And even within the realm of

understand. And even within the realm of science, I mean in science we are told we are told that that 70 to 90% of all

energy and matter is dark energy and dark matter. meaning that meaning this

dark matter. meaning that meaning this so for example if I think of of of the electromagnetic spectrum we see in a very narrow piece of this

this is the visible spectrum this is from 400 nmters to about 750 nmters this is where we see it's very narrow the

entire electromagnetic spectrum is much broader goes from gamma rays x-rays uh ultraviolet rays and then visible

where we see And then it goes to near infrared infrared uh, uh, mic radio, microwaves, radio

waves, all these things that we can detect, but we can't see. So when people say, "Hey, I'm aware of what's going on in my world." No, you're only aware of a very narrow bit. Now, we have tools that

can detect all of this. So, for example, I could put a radio here on the table and it turn it on and start playing. The

same waves that are hitting that radio are hitting me. I don't feel them. The

radio detects them. So, we're able to So, we can detect things today that people 500 years ago couldn't detect.

But there's a whole type of matter and energy that is called dark matter and dark energy that we have no ability to detect. Not just with my physical body,

detect. Not just with my physical body, we have no tools to detect them. That's

why it's called dark matter and dark energy. And you say, "Well, how do you

energy. And you say, "Well, how do you even know it's there then?"

>> Good question. And it it's there by difference. So in other words, they look

difference. So in other words, they look at the matter and energy that must have formed in the creation of the universe in the big bang event. And there's a lot

missing and that is what they call dark energy and dark matter. Now that's not to say that someday we might have a tool that we hey we can detect this dark

matter. What to us right now we're blind

matter. What to us right now we're blind to one day we will detect. And I presume you you know every year you you know there's discoveries I and and and dark

energy and maybe one day we'll be able to tap into that energy and use it as an energy form to to run our world. So

there's lots of things as scientists we don't understand. There's far more than

don't understand. There's far more than we don't that we don't understand than we do understand.

We in many ways we don't even know how to ask the questions of why don't we understand this because we don't even know it was there. Why do

we have the finetuning of the universe?

Wh why are the physical constants the way they are? If you change the dipole moment of water just a fraction, dipole moment is is the amount of electron density on one side of a water molecule

versus another.

If that would change just a fraction, there's no life. There's no life.

Everything is fine-tuned for life. How

do you have all these fine-tuning things just for life? It would make you think that someone designed this thing and and and everything is fine-tuned for

life in this universe. That we can sit on a planet that has an atmosphere and and and that we can breathe. That we

know no other planet that is like this.

That you can look up to the heavens and that you can see the sky. that we have an atmosphere that we can see through and we can see the heavens. This is a very unique place. Why? Why are the

physical constants the way they are? Who

made them physical constants? Why are

they the same constants throughout the entire universe? Anywhere I go in the

entire universe? Anywhere I go in the universe, the periodic table of elements is exactly the same.

Why are these the kind of questions that drive you to ponder God or that strengthen your faith? Well, my my pondering of God was much more simple to

begin with. I mean, I came to know the

begin with. I mean, I came to know the Lord at the age of 18. So, I wasn't thinking much about cellular structure and things like that. I was actually thinking a lot about women actually at that time.

>> I remember.

>> Yeah. and and and uh um but but I had an experience and uh uh you know I come from a secular Jewish home. Somebody

gave me a presentation of the gospel and it hit me. Something hit me and especially what hit me was when he you know he he had me read a verse that says for all have sinned and fall short of

the glory of God. And I said I'm not a sinner. Not a sinner. I I said I never

sinner. Not a sinner. I I said I never killed anybody. I never robbed a bank,

killed anybody. I never robbed a bank, which is very secular Jewish. You know,

we don't look at little things like sin.

It's not like Christians like I've sinned every second. I mean, we're not was blissfully unaware of of these things. And and he then he turned to

things. And and he then he turned to Matthew 5:28 and it says, I say to you, everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has committed adultery with her

already in his heart. And I was deeply impacted by that. Deeply impacted. And

and um you say, why? I I don't know why, but I know that when Jesus is speaking to somebody, his words have enormous power, and it just stopped me. I was addicted to

pornography at that time in my life.

There was no internet. This was 1977.

And and uh um I just found these magazines when I was working in gas stations along the highway outside New York City. And my job was to clean

York City. And my job was to clean restrooms and parking lots. So, I've

I've I've been there. I've done that.

And uh um I was addicted to pornography and and um and so I was immediately convicted of my sin and then he took me through the gospel message and I was thinking about that all the time. Couple

months later I was alone in my room. I

got down on my knees and I'm not even sure why Jews we stand when we pray. I

never got on my knees as a Jew.

Christians I had seen they sit when they pray. I got down on my knees and said,

pray. I got down on my knees and said, "Lord, forgive me because I'm a sinner.

Forgive me." And it was like this piece of God just dropped on me and my life just this burden of sin that I was carrying just just lifted just lifted.

And then all of a sudden to my right, Jesus is standing. Jesus is standing.

And I I turned toward him. I was already on my knees. I put my face to the ground and I just uncontrollable weeping because love was pouring out upon me.

Just pouring on me. There was no judgment. You'd think he'd judge me for

judgment. You'd think he'd judge me for my sin. no judgment, there was no

my sin. no judgment, there was no condemnation, there was no threat, there was nothing but love. I never had a day like that before. I never had a day like

that after. That was November 7, 1977.

that after. That was November 7, 1977.

And and uh uh that day was unique in my life. I don't even know how long I was

life. I don't even know how long I was there. I got up, I wiped my tears from

there. I got up, I wiped my tears from my eyes, and I couldn't stop thinking about Jesus. Here's this Jewish kid

about Jesus. Here's this Jewish kid thinking about Jesus. I had this recurring dream night after night. I'm

telling people about Jesus in my dream.

There's a Jewish kid telling people about Jesus in his dream. It's very odd.

And and uh I didn't know that that was a prophetic dream. That was prophetic.

prophetic dream. That was prophetic.

God was showing me what my life was going to become. I'd be telling everybody about Jesus. If I go a week without leading somebody to Jesus, without leading them to faith

in Christ and faith in his resurrection from the dead, that's a wasted week for me. Just through a one-on-one convers,

me. Just through a one-on-one convers, if I go week, that's my whole life is telling people about Jesus.

He gave me that in a dream when I was 18. I didn't tell anybody. I mean,

18. I didn't tell anybody. I mean,

imagine telling somebody, they think I'm crazy. I didn't tell anybody what

crazy. I didn't tell anybody what happened. Two weeks later, the guy who

happened. Two weeks later, the guy who had shared with me several months before, he says, Jim, have you received Jesus in your heart, I said, I I think I have. Why do you ask? He said, 'You

have. Why do you ask? He said, 'You haven't stopped smiling for weeks.

You're always smiling now. You look

different. Something's different about you. I said, I feel different. I said,

you. I said, I feel different. I said,

how could I how can I stay close to God?

I've never felt like this before. I was

never like this as a Jew. I was a secular Jew. I mean, and and I I never

secular Jew. I mean, and and I I never felt close to God before. He said, 'If you read your Bible every day, you'll stay close to God. If you don't, you won't. And I've read the Bible every day

won't. And I've read the Bible every day for 47 years. I started reading a little Gideon's Green New Testament, Psalms and Proverbs. And then a couple years later,

Proverbs. And then a couple years later, I got a regular Bible and I started reading that. I read it from Genesis to

reading that. I read it from Genesis to Revelation. I'm done. I start again. I'm

Revelation. I'm done. I start again. I'm

in no hurry. I just just can spend an entire several days reading in a in a in just a few paragraphs if I feel the Lord

speaking to me. And just just love it. I

love this word. And uh um you know the whole thing of the whole addiction to pornography, it broke that day. I had a lot of other problems that I still have,

but that one he used to show me my sin.

That one he used to break it to show me his power and deliverance. He broke

that. You know, when when when we are delivered from sin, there's nothing like it. There's nothing like it. I mean, we

it. There's nothing like it. I mean, we we're always crying out to God, you know, do this in my life. do that, do that. But there's nothing like the

that. But there's nothing like the deliverance from sin. Nothing like the deliverance from sin. So people can try to explain that one away. And I know

what happened in my life as a result.

And uh um what does your family say?

>> Well, my my family's Jewish and and uh I told them I told them right away. I told

them what happened. And my parents didn't say much. Um, I learned much later that of course they weren't happy, but they thought it, my parents told me

they thought it was a fad. It'll pass.

My I have an older brother, older sister. They had gotten into things and

sister. They had gotten into things and they thought it it'll pass.

>> Yeah.

>> But it didn't pass. It didn't pass. My

mother and then I then uh a year and a half later, I moved into a house with with nine other Christian guys and was owned by the pastor of a church there,

the evangelical chaplain of the university. and and uh um and she she

university. and and uh um and she she came she wanted to see what what's going on uh what is this happening and I remember I I took her to church and and

uh she was weeping the whole time.

Really?

>> Yeah. And I said, "You were really you're really touched by this." She

said, "Why do you think I said I was touched?" I said, "You were weeping the

touched?" I said, "You were weeping the whole time." She said, "I'm weeping for

whole time." She said, "I'm weeping for you. I'm weeping for you. This New York

you. I'm weeping for you. This New York Jewish mother. I'm weeping for you." I

Jewish mother. I'm weeping for you." I

said, "Why are you weeping for me?" She

says that you're here. I said, "Well, where should I be on a Sunday afternoon?" She said, "How about the

afternoon?" She said, "How about the beach like any normal human being?

That's a mother."

>> She sounds pretty open-minded, though. I

mean, she went with you. She went with me. And I said, "Why don't you read the

me. And I said, "Why don't you read the New Testament and see what I'm into?"

And she did. My mother was always a big reader. She devoured books. If you saw

reader. She devoured books. If you saw my mother sitting in her home, she was always reading a book. She'd love books.

She loved books. And she'd mark them and she'd very careful reader. She read the entire New Testament. Something most

Christians have never done. Yeah.

>> From beginning to end, she read it.

>> What' she think?

>> She she said she said, "I don't blame them for killing Jesus.

>> Who does he think he is? this this guy, this young guy going around, 30-year-old guy going around and telling people that that uh uh your whitewashed tombs, these

people are devoting their lives to helping other people. And he's telling people that that your whitewashed tombs and opposing them, these people are helping everybody and he's opposing

them. She says, "Of course, you're going

them. She says, "Of course, you're going to get yourself killed for this."

>> Well, she's actually getting to something deep and true.

>> Yeah. you get yourself killed for speaking up. Isn't that what we're

speaking up. Isn't that what we're talking about today?

>> And uh and then I said, "Okay, read read the Old Testament." Because most Jews have never read the Old Testament. You

think they No, they're like Christians.

They've never read their own word.

>> Yeah.

>> And so she read the entire Old Testament from beginning to end.

>> That's amazing.

>> And I I said, "So what'd you think of that?"

that?" And she said, she said, uh, um, he warned us over and over again. He warned

us and he told us this would happen to us. It's just like he told us

us. It's just like he told us over and over again. And she said, "We deserved it. We deserved it." Now, my

deserved it. We deserved it." Now, my Jewish friends, they they can't take this. I'm just telling you what she

this. I'm just telling you what she said. I didn't say it. I'm just I'm just

said. I didn't say it. I'm just I'm just the messenger of what she said. Now,

she's gone now, so you can't come against her. But that's what she said.

against her. But that's what she said.

She said, she said, "We deserved it."

She said, "He told us, warned us over."

>> Well, the prophets are very tough on their own people. I mean, they are >> very tough.

>> Very tough. Like way tougher than >> And that's why they were killed.

>> Exactly.

>> That's why they were killed. Yeah. and

and and and and Jesus said, you know, when the in Lukeap 11, it said the lawyers came to Jesus and he says, "When you speak this way about the Pharisees,

you you offend us to you offend us." I

mean, it it was uh um you know, offense is a big thing. You offend us. And Jesus

big thing. You offend us. And Jesus

didn't say, "Gee, I'm I'm sorry about that." You know, I really the worst thing I could have done was offend. No, he says you lawyers, you

was offend. No, he says you lawyers, you lawyers, you are responsible for the deaths of all the prophets from Abel

from from Abel to to uh uh Zechariah.

This this is this is like uh um this is like us saying from Genesis to Revelation. This is this is uh because

Revelation. This is this is uh because the way they order their books, this is this is the encompassing way. And he

says, "You're responsible for all of their deaths." All of them. Uh um um and

their deaths." All of them. Uh um um and and um so that's the way Jesus handled this. Yeah. And then he says, "Which one

this. Yeah. And then he says, "Which one of them didn't you kill?"

>> Yeah. And and so >> he wasn't sucking up.

>> Yeah. He wasn't sucking up. So So that was her response. But then she told me, she said, "You know, you're going to have a lot of trouble with your children. You know, you you you teach

children. You know, you you you teach them all these things and it's so religious and everything. you're you're

going to have a lot of trouble.

And my kids grew up and my daughter, my oldest daughter was 15 and she came to visit with my dad and and uh she went up to my daughter's room and talked to her for 2 hours. You know, my my mother used

to do a lot of volunteer work at the mental health association. She was very good at talking to people, particularly young people. Young people used to love

young people. Young people used to love to talk to my mom. She came out after two hours. She said, "That's some

two hours. She said, "That's some daughter you've got." and she started reading the Bible again. And she started reading the Bible and she was reading the Bible, the case for Christ and a

devotional from the Interarsity, which I don't know where she got those. And um

she called me one morning, we used to speak every Sunday. She called me and she said, "Uh, Jimmy, you wouldn't believe what happened." I said, "What happened?" She

happened." I said, "What happened?" She

says, "I believe Jesus is the son of God."

God." I said, "What?" She said, "He's the son of God." I was reading about the

of God." I was reading about the crucifixion. She said, "This has to be

crucifixion. She said, "This has to be God. Only God could go through some

God. Only God could go through some something like this, not just a normal person. Jesus had to have been the son

person. Jesus had to have been the son of God."

of God." And uh uh you know, she was um she was really moved. And then the next week she

really moved. And then the next week she calls me. She said, "Jimmy, you can find

calls me. She said, "Jimmy, you can find any damn thing in the Bible." I said, "What is it you found?" She said, "It says, "Husbands love the wife of your youth."

youth." >> Yeah. It's the best.

>> Yeah. It's the best.

>> That's the best. And I said, "Well, tell that to dad." She had it on speakerphone. That's how my parents

speakerphone. That's how my parents would only speak on speaker phone, you know. And um

know. And um and you know, this is a Jewish New York father and and uh I said, "Well, tell that to dad, you know, you can." And I hear him in the background saying, "I

know all that already. I know all that."

So, she came to the Lord. And my dad used to take her to church. She got

baptized. She went to church.

>> Your dad took her to church?

>> Yes. He used to take her to church. He

loved his wife. He loved his wife.

>> Very open-minded parents.

>> Very open-minded. They were good parents. Very good parents.

parents. Very good parents.

>> And uh uh they took her to church.

Sometimes he'd sit with her in church.

Sometimes he'd drop her off and then he'd come to pick her up. And and she got baptized in in the Atlantic Ocean.

Uh and um and then what did her friends think? Uh she told everybody. She didn't

think? Uh she told everybody. She didn't

hide this thing. She was quite open. I

mean, like I told everybody. I mean,

what are they going to think? I remember

I told my cousin, he says, "You can't do that. You're Jewish. You're Jewish.

that. You're Jewish. You're Jewish.

I never thought about that. Am I allowed to do this?

>> And uh >> that's too funny.

>> But 45 years I prayed for my dad. I told

him the gospel so many times. I read to him the entire gospel of John over a period of about 5 days and he only fell asleep like twice while I was reading it

to him. He was good guy. He just

to him. He was good guy. He just

listened to me. He'd fall asleep sometimes and wake up and I'd begin again. And and uh but on his deathbed, I

again. And and uh but on his deathbed, I said, "Dad, can I can I you know, you knew he was dying. His mind was all there. His body was just failing him at

there. His body was just failing him at the age of 94."

And I said, "Can I tell you again tell you again why why this means so much to me, my faith?" He says, he says, "I I really don't want to hear it. I don't

want to hear it." He was being nice. He

says, "I just don't."

That night, a Jamaican night nurse came in to take we we we hired a nurse just to sit with him all night long. Um and

and uh she started sharing with him.

She said, "You know, there's the picture of your wife. You want to be with her?

You can be with her. You can receive Jesus right now." She said, "You want it?" She said, "He nodded." He said,

it?" She said, "He nodded." He said, "Yes." So, she called in another nurse.

"Yes." So, she called in another nurse.

They all held hands and they prayed with him and he she said he extended both hands to the heavens and it just the whole room changed and he came to the

Lord right there and the whole attitude about his life changed and and uh my sister saw this and she was amazed. She

was amazed and and uh he died 4 days later. He died in the Lord for 45 years.

later. He died in the Lord for 45 years.

I prayed for that man. He came to know the Lord. That's incredible.

the Lord. That's incredible.

Nobody can tell me this doesn't work. I

mean, the the gospel message is not a sham. I see this over and over again. I

sham. I see this over and over again. I

told you every week I see somebody come to the Lord and I get inv in in involved in daily reading of the scriptures starting in the gospel according to John. Slowly, pensively, I teach them

John. Slowly, pensively, I teach them how to read slowly reach each verse twice. Then break it up. Think about

twice. Then break it up. Think about

that. In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God. Stop. Read it again. In the

God. Stop. Read it again. In the

beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God. Now break

it up in parts. In the beginning in the beginning just ponder that in that means before there was time before there was anything. In the beginning was the word.

anything. In the beginning was the word.

Word is information.

Everything starts with information. You

cannot build a cell without the informationational code. Everything has

informationational code. Everything has to have information. There was

informationational code DNA that from the acorn that started this tree that made this table. Information. You have

to have information pre pre is a prerequisite to everything. In the

beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God. That word

was God. The next verse says he was in the beginning with God. Puts pronoun. He

was in the beginning. He the word is a he. This is an individual. You get to

he. This is an individual. You get to verse 14 it blows your mind. The word

that word that was with God and was what? The word became flesh and dwelt

what? The word became flesh and dwelt among us and we saw his glory. Glory as

of the only begotten from the father full of grace and truth. We saw him. We

saw him. He became flesh. That word that information that was God took on human flesh. I mean you see this and what

flesh. I mean you see this and what happens is the Bible says that that that uh uh God no man can approach God and live. No man. And which makes sense. You

live. No man. And which makes sense. You

look out and you you see this whole universe. Look out through the James

universe. Look out through the James Webb telescope. You see colors

Webb telescope. You see colors everywhere. Each one of those is a

everywhere. Each one of those is a galaxy that God created the entire molecular level for us to have life. And

then the atomic level from which the molecules are made from and then the subatomic for each one of those atom everything that whole dimensional difference. He created the whole thing.

difference. He created the whole thing.

It's no wonder why we cannot approach him. He dwells in in in in a light that

him. He dwells in in in in a light that we could never be near. But he says, "I want to be with them." The Bible tells

us in in Hebrews chapter 2, he took on flesh and blood because his children are of flesh and blood. That's an amazing thing. He took on flesh and blood

thing. He took on flesh and blood because we are of flesh and blood. You

know, we have cancer patients stay in our home sometimes because we live right near a big cancer center and and uh uh you can't it's too expensive to stay in a hotel for 3 months, 6 months

treatment. And so sometimes a child is

treatment. And so sometimes a child is getting treatment and they will lose their hair just like an adult loses their hair. And so the mother or the

their hair. And so the mother or the father will shave their head in solidarity with that child. And the

child is different. They're like, "None of us ever. We're we're all together.

We're all together." This is what Jesus does. He took on flesh and blood because

does. He took on flesh and blood because we have flesh and blood in solidarity with us. And he says, "If they come as

with us. And he says, "If they come as an adult, they'll feel me. I'll be born among them." When one is born among us,

among them." When one is born among us, we're not intimidated by them.

>> We're not afraid of them.

>> They're born among us. And he's born among and he teaches us how to have relationship with God. He says, "This is how you do it. You don't have to be a monk and go up on a mountain. You just

live among your own people.

just wake up early in the morning, go off and enjoy God. Just enjoy God. And

and how he loved the scriptures, how he quoted the scriptures over and over again. He demonstrated it for us. This

again. He demonstrated it for us. This

is not a sham. I see lives change all the time. I see people come to the Lord.

the time. I see people come to the Lord.

When I get them in this, their marriages change, their their children change. I

see them writing to me after a year, two years. I'm back together with my wife.

years. I'm back together with my wife.

My kids are turned around. I a guy just wrote to me this week. I'm getting

baptized with my son. and you led me to the Lord one year ago. He says, "Now my 13-year-old, who was sitting in the same room when you talked to me over the Zoom conversation, he's getting baptized with

me." It changes lives over and over

me." It changes lives over and over again. The gospel is not a sham. This is

again. The gospel is not a sham. This is

real. This is real. It is true. Every

word in the scriptures is true. And and

I am a public testimony of this over and over again. I see this thing being borne

over again. I see this thing being borne out.

Do you feel like something is happening in this country or world where this is accelerating?

There's more awareness of this of God.

>> More awareness of God. Yeah.

>> Yeah. I think there's more awareness of God. I see something accelerating toward

God. I see something accelerating toward God. People are becoming more aware of

God. People are becoming more aware of this.

>> Yes.

>> Yeah. I I do see that. People say, you know, what's it like working with students today? You look I I've been I

students today? You look I I've been I went to the campus when I was 18, right after my 18th birthday, and I've never left. I've never left. I've been on

left. I've never left. I've been on college campuses since I was 18. So for

for almost 50 years, this is where where where I am. And I've seen students all of this time and uh uh uh I see the gospel works the same on students today

as it ever did. And I see people I I I mean there's a lot of mess in the world, but there's always been a lot of mess in the world. Ask the Koreans what ask

the world. Ask the Koreans what ask >> ask what it was like 50 years uh 70 years ago in Korea, right? I mean I mean things were a real mess. I mean and the world has been a mess over and over

again. But yeah, I mean there there's a

again. But yeah, I mean there there's a lot of discussion about God. And I think even science is pointing us more and more to God. I mean look look at this.

Look at the creatures that we are. How

do you build one of these? How do you do this? How do you pull this thing off?

this? How do you pull this thing off?

And now we know so much more. This is

not this is not it used to be a cell was a bunch of protoplasm. Now it's like this. It's this factory. is this factory

this. It's this factory. is this factory with all these levels of systems level engineering in every cell. How do you do this? This is amazing.

this? This is amazing.

>> So the more you know, the less you know and the more it points you toward a creator.

>> Yeah, I think that's certainly true. The

more you know, the less the more you realize you don't know, >> right?

>> And for me, it points me toward a creator over and over again. I'm I'm

looking at this. I mean, this is all I do. I sit in my office and I just go

do. I sit in my office and I just go through chemistry. I mean over and over

through chemistry. I mean over and over again I'm just doing chemistry reading papers and writing propos I mean you stare at this you say god how do you do this I remember my my my son who you

whom you've met he was he was three years old he came running toward me we were building a a molecular brain we were building this this this this synthetic brain where we were taking molecules in a disoriented array and

you'd get voltage pulses from the outside you you you you couldn't map the thing but we just give voltage pulses from the outside to program it to do the function that we wanted it to do and we could just get little tiny things an

andgate an orgate little simple things and then one day I'm sitting at at the kitchen table thinking about how we're going to build this and he comes running toward me and I said Lord how do you do this how

do you build one of these how do you do this there's all this motion all this action and all this comprehension and all this awareness and all this consciousness >> and I'm trying to build a little orgate

and and uh and and I can't do it and and it's all this how do you do do this. We

don't know the internet connect pattern of the molecules in our brain or of the neurons in our brain, but we use it all the time. I mean, with a computer chip,

the time. I mean, with a computer chip, you know where every device is.

Everything is perfectly placed. You

better know where everything is. And

here, we use our brains. We We don't have a map of it. And we use it all the time. It's extraordinary. And And I look

time. It's extraordinary. And And I look at I look at life and I'm like, "This this is amazing. Amazing." and and and and then I I used to just purposely sit

outside and just wait for mosquitoes to come because they they're flying tiny little tiny little brain and there's all this coordinated flight and I'm emitting something that's calling them.

>> Yes.

>> And now as soon as they sting, they fly away and then more he's called his friends. You know, here's a hunk of meat

friends. You know, here's a hunk of meat and they're coming right back to the same place. They're coming right back.

same place. They're coming right back.

They know where to come. And so he's signaling them. So there's all this

signaling them. So there's all this sensors from very small amounts of these these pherommones. Very small amount of

these pherommones. Very small amount of these small organic molecules have been emitted and they have these amazing sensors that that then they converge on you. How how do you do that? How do you

you. How how do you do that? How do you pull this thing off? I mean you need code. You need genetic code. You need

code. You need genetic code. You need

information for every one of these things. You can't tell me there is no

things. You can't tell me there is no God. You can't tell me. I mean, who who

God. You can't tell me. I mean, who who should understand this better than me?

Really? I mean, I'm not trying to speak this proudly. It's just that I

this proudly. It's just that I understand the molecular level as good as anyone else in the world.

>> As good as anyone else in the world. So,

if anybody should be able to understand it, I should understand it. This is

amazing. Just amazing. This world, this creation. And so, so I see God and I

creation. And so, so I see God and I say, "God, you are amazing. This is

extraordinary. I mean, how you pull this thing off." and he allows us as

thing off." and he allows us as scientists to explore in this little nano domain of his creation and and and and just get excited about it. I can't

believe you teach at university. It's

amazing. It's wonderful. It's such a great sign.

>> Oh, I love teaching. I love I I love teaching even introductory organic chemistry. I like to take them just

chemistry. I like to take them just right from the beginning. It's like it's like I take somebody to the Grand Canyon and I've seen it many times, but they're

seeing it for the first time. I just

want to look at them and see like, wow, that that's what it's like teaching organic chemistry for the first time.

Let me show you what these organic molecules can do. Let me show you how they do this. How you can you can look at a structure and predict what's going to happen when you take two molecules and put them together and why they do

what they do and why the reaction takes place and why it's fast or slow. Is it

explosive or do you have to heat it up?

you know, they learn all this and why why does deodorant work the way it does?

Why do these chemicals do do what they do? I mean, how is it, you know, why why

do? I mean, how is it, you know, why why does wood have the structure that it has? Why why do fabrics why why do why

has? Why why do fabrics why why do why do you walk across a a carpet and the fibers spring right back? What made them spring back? Why don't they stay down

spring back? Why don't they stay down when you stepped on them? I love to be able to explain this and and just open up the world to them and show them this.

This to me is really exciting.

Professor Jim Tour. Thank you very much.

Thank you.

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