Yash Gupta, Will Ventures | Inside Moves #16

Welcome back to another episode of Inside Moves. Today we're sitting down

Inside Moves. Today we're sitting down with Yash Gupta. He's worked at YouTube, Boston Consulting Group, and got a graduate business degree from Stanford.

Now he's investing with World Ventures, focused on sports, entertainment, technology, consumer, all the things that we care a lot about at JDS Sports.

The main focus of today's conversation was college sports and in particular how we save it.

I think that your your background will come out in this conversation. Um, a lot of cool things to hit on probably that you picked up over the years from starting at USC undergrad at Indian

immigrant which is cool. Um,

>> coming to America, succeeding at USC, um, being at Boston Consulting Group, one of the most respected uh, firms in the world. Um, going to Stanford

the world. Um, going to Stanford Graduate School of Business, spending time at YouTube, spending time in a bunch of different places, uh, learning about the business of sports. um now

ending up at Will Ventures Investing with another really respected firm.

>> Um I'm sure a lot of that will come out, but we're here today to talk about college sports. Duke basketball plays

college sports. Duke basketball plays tonight. We got Champions Classic

tonight. We got Champions Classic tonight.

>> Oh. Um, and yeah, I think the the best way to start this is we're both going through probably some frustration as as guys who love college

sports >> but are not so pumped with the product um that's being put out there right now.

Um, and then talking to people >> that share our love for college sports that are actually frustrated and maybe turning the TV off. Um, you know, I think there's an argument against that

too. like there's a lot of great things

too. like there's a lot of great things happening with the product, but um maybe the best way to start is for me to say some things,

kind of show where my feet are uh and then see how you react. And I imagine we agree but >> um okay, first thing I'd say is

>> a obvious college sports >> is flipped on its head. It's going

through the biggest reset it's ever gone through.

>> Definitely. Uh, you know, amateurism is basically gone.

>> Gone.

>> Um, the NCAA used to be the rule writer has less power every day.

>> Yeah.

>> Um, the second thing I'd say is >> basically all of the problems that exist in today's college sports are because of the NCA's inability to modernize

um, and treat their athletes appropriately.

>> Right. and and unwillingness to really I would add in addition to inability.

>> Yeah. And unwillingness to um like innovator's dilemma, whatever, incumbent dilemma.

>> Um and then I'd say like, you know, a lot of the people I talk to, they say NIL uh ruined college sports or the

transfer portal ruined college sports. I

would say these are all like pieces to a puzzle. Um, but really like none of

puzzle. Um, but really like none of those things alone are ruining college sports. I wouldn't even say they are

sports. I wouldn't even say they are ruining college sports. I would say that the problem with college sports is that it is now a professional league.

>> Yeah.

>> Without the same kind of rulebook >> that professional sports have.

>> Yeah. Absolutely.

>> For the transfer market, whatever contracts, a lot. There's a lot of things to unpack, but it's not NIL's fault. It's not the transfer

NIL's fault. It's not the transfer portal's fault. It's there's no rule

portal's fault. It's there's no rule book to this new professional league.

Um, and then the last thing I'll say is my opinion is that the path forward is writing that rule book via CBA. I know,

you know, we're on the same page there.

We we're both JDS Sports and Will Venture supporters of Jim Caval at Athletes or um there's a lot more to go into and I have a lot more thoughts, but I'll pause there and like see how you want to unpack that.

>> Yeah, a lot to unpack there. I I mean largely agree with what you're saying. I

think we have an economic model that looks a lot like a professional league, right? The economic like value at stake

right? The economic like value at stake here is is very very high. And so given those reasons, like you need a structure that sort of corresponds to that. And I

think we're starting to get there. Um

there's obviously like we can talk about some of the legislation that's that's happening um in Congress. We can talk about some of the private equity firms coming in. They're trying to stabilize

coming in. They're trying to stabilize the industry. But I think in the next

the industry. But I think in the next like 12 to 18 months, we should have a lot more clarity on what this looks like moving forward.

>> Yeah. So maybe the best way even before we talk about like >> private equity coming in or or any or or AO pushing for athletes rights, maybe

the best way to start is to like isolate some of these things that are happening so that because I think the average fan knows players are getting paid now, but

they don't really understand the unfolding of events and as a byproduct, I don't know that they really understand the pressures that are getting put on athletic departments to

try and adapt to these things live, right?

>> So like the the first thing that I see in this like domino is the transfer portal exists.

>> Yeah.

>> That that went into play in 2018, not even as a like in in 2018 that was set up so that the NCA could better handle um their transfer market with

visibility. But that wasn't like you on

visibility. But that wasn't like you on day one of that you couldn't just transfer and and not sit out like the free transfer rule. Yeah. Exactly. So

like that that that was a thing that was in place >> also probably as a byproduct of people being frustrated with the way that coaches and athletic departments were not letting people move freely.

>> Yeah. Absolutely.

>> Um but like that's so that's one isolated thing that started. I guess

from there it it's it's a combination of lawsuits or even state laws that were coming into play that were directly in

contradiction with one another and the NCA's rulebook.

>> Yeah.

>> And the NCAA is now looking at something like I think it was the Fair Pay for Fair Play Act or something in California is like one of the good examples coming

into effect in 2021. There's similar

laws in different states being written that say the NCA can't stop athletes from monetizing their name, image, and likeness.

>> And the NCA is looking around like, >> dang, what do we do? Like, we have no choice, >> but our antitrust uh is going to become under question

>> and they kind of allow uh NIO payments to start happening.

>> Yeah. And by the way, at that point it was also like a competitive issue for different schools, right? Where it's

like, okay, you've got California with one set of rules. And so US UCLA, I mean, even at the high school level, like someone like a modern day or a St.

John Vos has a different set of rules than someone in Georgia. And then you were seeing players transferring high schools if you remember at the time to like get access to NIL. And so it was like starting to like, you know, trickle

down even to the high schools. And so I think the NCAA had to come in and be like, "All right, going to allow this to happen. Um, it's got to be there's going

happen. Um, it's got to be there's going to be some sort of standardization. I

don't think they sort of expected it to like snowball as quickly as it ended up happening.

>> Yeah. Right. Exactly. So then now now it's like, you know, say 2000 2021.

>> The NCA is having this like introspective moment where they realize they're in trouble. If they try and enforce the rules that they've been enforcing for decades, they're going to

end up in court and they're going to lose. So then they say okay athletes are

lose. So then they say okay athletes are able to monetize their selves in the way of any other professional athlete endorsements.

>> Yeah.

>> What happened is it didn't say you can essentially pay directly to the athletes from the schools the way that pros are paid for

their labor. But that's effectively what

their labor. But that's effectively what happened via NIL collectives and chaos ensued.

Similarly, the transfer portal could not any longer uh have their rule about limiting your

ability to free freely move as an athlete. It used to be where you know

athlete. It used to be where you know you have to sit out a year and uh it was hard to just bounce around schools. The

NCA also looked at that and was like if we try and enforce this it's the same thing. You know our power is going to be

thing. You know our power is going to be contested in courts. We're just going to let this happen. completely separate

issue to payforplay revenue sharing which comes later. Yeah.

>> But is kind of the chaos that the average fan I think is like familiar with and sees in the product. Am I

right?

>> Definitely.

>> Yeah. And I think that that part of it like it needed to happen because the NCAA knew that it couldn't control it.

Um I think how quickly following that like teams took advantage of it and athletes took advantage of it was jarring. Right. And as a USC fan, I

jarring. Right. And as a USC fan, I benefited. Lincoln Riley came over

benefited. Lincoln Riley came over immediately. You know, Caleb Williams

immediately. You know, Caleb Williams comes over, Jordan Addison comes over.

Um, you take a team that like was in a complete rebuilding mode and then all of a sudden they're, you know, potentially going to the playoffs. And and so like for fans, it was like both a positive and a negative, I would say, because it

allowed for that competitive nature uh to improve like very very quickly. But

to your to your earlier point, like the the the players that you were used to seeing um the players maybe that like you had nurtured for two or three years were now leaving your programs like it

took away that like connection that people had with their universities and their and their college athletic departments um and made it feel a lot more professional much more quickly.

>> Yeah. I mean, for me too, the as a former college athlete, I I thought about the teams that I was a part of and >> um how they were special because of the four years we got together, you know, um

I wanted to to transfer from Duke as a freshman. I didn't do it because

freshman. I didn't do it because >> uh if I, you know, got homesick and wanted to go home to Ruckers, I would have lost my sophomore year of eligibility, would I sit out and then who knows what happens in 18 months from from then? Yeah.

from then? Yeah.

>> Um so I didn't do it and that was the best thing that ever happened to me.

Does that mean that um you know there aren't kids with needs to move and that they should be looked at and adapted to? No. Like

everybody's got a different story. But

um you know combining the transfer portal um and the free moving of it, no rules, free market with now we have these NIL collectives.

>> Yeah.

>> That are essentially just donors.

>> Totally. who are saying, "I used to donate money to the athletic department to fund your facilities, to fund, you know, the the coaches recruiting trips, etc."

>> Coaches buyouts.

>> Coaches buyouts.

>> Um, I used to fund those things, but now you're telling me that the best way to attract talent is to directly pay them in marketing deals. Well, then they were

just going to make up marketing deals.

And um you have this like chaos every year is free agency which is the the frustration I think with college sports from a fans perspective, from a coach's

perspective and even for the players. Um

the lack of rules is not good, you know.

>> No.

>> Yeah. I mean it it misaligns incentives, right? Because if your if your team is

right? Because if your if your team is up for a bowl game, it might not be a college football playoff game, but it's it's a meaningful bowl game and you know that you want to get a better contract for next year, you're probably going to

sit that out cuz you don't want to get injured for what you view as a meaningless game, right? So, it it hurts the players, it hurts the fans, it hurts the schools that are having to focus on like roster retention in addition to

sort of roster construction. So, yeah,

and like the the the the role of collectives was very different at each school as well. like some schools were a bit more above board I think you I guess you could say where it was true NIL the

way NIL was intended which is okay you get a brand that wants to work with an athlete maybe in the local community and there is a bit more of like a direct endorsement type relationship and then you had a lot of collectives that were

effectively just you know paytoplay um and it was extremely hard at that point to sort of regulate and like figure out what was real and what was not >> yeah I I think I saw a statistic that um

I'm going to butcher the number of like total value that went through NIL collectives on like an annual basis over the last however many years, but it's it's a big number.

>> Yeah.

um like either a nine I think it was a nine figure number and I think less than 5% of it was like analyst says who knows

but less than 5% of it was actually true >> marketing dollar marketing dollar >> true true sponsorship with like true um you know >> uh I guess obligation from the athlete

to promote some kind of legitimate brand for and fairly market valued right so like it's it's it's really just a way for um donors to to get money into the pockets of the athletes they want to

come to their school. And then the other statistic I saw was that less than 1% of NIL deals were investigated by the NCIA.

>> Yeah.

>> So the NCA is basically saying it's chaos and like we're incapable of monitoring this.

>> You know, they're making efforts to do that now. Um but you know that that is

that now. Um but you know that that is the the wild west of of college sports >> since you know 2021.

>> Yeah. Um,

>> yeah. The last thing I would add to that, like in terms of what everything that's happened that we've gone to today was like realignment as well, like like all these conversations around

realignment, the SEC expanding, the Big 10 expans expanding, the demise of the Pack 12, like all this was sort of happening at the same time as well. And

like there was rumors of it and then obviously it ended up happening a couple years later. And I think that like that

years later. And I think that like that just added as a fan to like the instability, right? because okay, you're

instability, right? because okay, you're starting to lose players that you rooted for that you loved and you respected.

Now all of a sudden you're losing rivalries as well. Um and so it felt like the whole ecosystem as we knew it as fans was was changing, right? Like

from a player, from a team, from a >> um just general like relationship perspective across the ecosystem. So all

that kind of happened really within like a three or four year time span at the same time.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And I think there's like an important distinction to make here too that everything we just talked about has created professional challenges for the people operating athletic departments.

>> How do I like how do I create a championship level team?

>> Yeah.

>> How do I engage with my fans, >> etc. How do I run an athletic department? Like became a major

department? Like became a major challenge for these people.

>> Yeah.

>> Um it created chaos for the athletes. Um

but we haven't even really gotten into the potential attack the biggest potential attack vector for athletic departments in the future of college sports which is now all of a sudden

there's there's revenue sharing right and and that is a surprise >> new line item new operational cost >> that if you want to compete at the highest level you have to begin paying

>> fully fund it >> right and like that is >> distinct from everything we just talked about and the thing that the things that people have gotten familiarized and associated with college sports um is

kind of actually a thing in the past.

The big problem that's facing these athletic departments now, yes, they still have to deal with all this chaos with players moving around. How do we retain them? How do we recruit them? How

retain them? How do we recruit them? How

do we engage with fans? But but now also, how do we pay our budget that just got $20 million bigger?

>> Yeah.

>> In the wake of the house versus the NCAA settlement. Yeah.

settlement. Yeah.

>> Yeah. And that number is going to only grow, right? So, so you mentioned it's

grow, right? So, so you mentioned it's 20.5 today. it'll it'll grow like 4% or

20.5 today. it'll it'll grow like 4% or 5% year-over-year. Um, you got to figure

5% year-over-year. Um, you got to figure out how you're going to allocate that across sports. You got to figure out how

across sports. You got to figure out how do you allocate that across players.

You'll still have collectives, by the way, playing in this ecosystem in terms of being able to offer like true NIL.

And you still need to figure out how you raise those dollars um as schools and collectives because if everyone is able to sort of pay the cap and then you you you still need to find a competitive

differentiator. So, and and a lot of

differentiator. So, and and a lot of these schools um had other challenges, right? Like just budget challenges that

right? Like just budget challenges that they were already facing. Whether it's

capital projects around facilities, whether it's um loss of academic funding, like there there was significant challenges that these schools are now facing beyond just the athletic departments as well. And and to

your point, now you're adding, you know, more than $20 million a year of of of unexpected costs and potential back pay as well. So yeah, it's a really tough

as well. So yeah, it's a really tough time for college athletic departments to sort of manage their budgets and and figure it out moving forward.

>> Yeah. So like

what's going to happen? Let's talk in the short term. Um

>> yeah, like what's the down what's the downside risk that we have that we're facing in college sports and like let's also let's just say this the house verse NCA settlement. What was that? I think a

NCA settlement. What was that? I think a lot of people are associated with NIL.

It's actually kind of separate. Yeah. Um

it's a it's a lawsuit that said that because the NCAA was in antitrust violation for decades. Yeah.

>> Um they did >> over two billion in damages to athletes.

Yeah.

>> Uh the Supreme Court ruled unanimously in favor I think not I think yeah unanimously in favor um of house and house versus NCA said you need to back pay all these athletes.

>> Yeah.

>> Um 2.8 billion. Yeah. Yeah.

>> And now going forward kind of demanding a go forward plan so that you are fairly compensating your athletes. As a result, rather than NIL payments, there is a $20

million up to $20 million you can opt in um ability to pay your athletes um directly off, you know, the P&L of an athletic department. So that's where we

athletic department. So that's where we are now. And that's going to create

are now. And that's going to create instability, right? Um

instability, right? Um >> so what's the downside risk?

>> Yeah.

Yeah, there there's a bunch of downside risks here, right? So, I think the first and the thing I see as a fan, not just of college football and college basketball and and and women's college basketball, is that the non-revenue

generating sports are going to see a hit here. um things like title N will help

here. um things like title N will help with some protections, but we're already seeing it right where if you're a sort of middle tier athletic department and you know that you want to compete in the

revenue generating sports and sort of fully fund that $20.5 million, you might have to cut sports in order to help fund that. Um and so just as a fan of the

that. Um and so just as a fan of the Olympic sports, that's a really tough challenge.

>> Yeah. As as a guy who played baseball, like scary. It's very scary. Yeah. Um,

like scary. It's very scary. Yeah. Um,

and it was already happening with NIL where like the distribution of dollars was like inequitable. Um, it's going to I feel like increase even more so now with with um the the house settlement.

Um, so that that's that's one thing. Um,

I think the second thing is the way that house has sort of been proposed and it hasn't been been codified yet, but like it's doesn't really solve a lot of the structural issues. Um, there is still

structural issues. Um, there is still going to be a lot of as I mentioned like NIL involvement with collectives. Um

there will still sort of be a lot of like head-to-head recruiting battles where um you know the these things can sort of maybe get out of control um and you're seeing like more under the table

payments because you need to sort of attract the the quarterback to come to your university. Um there is still not

your university. Um there is still not like too much in there around transfer rights, player protections, um the back pay itself and figuring out how schools

will sort of uh pay for those things. So

it like answers some questions but it creates like a whole new set of questions for these universities as well.

>> Yeah. A whole a whole new set of questions. Do you think that

questions. Do you think that the NIO collectives it it seemed like um you know as investors you're paying attention to like who's building new stuff for what, right? And there was

kind of like a rush to like let's build stuff to solve problems for these NIL collectives. It was it was clearly a

collectives. It was it was clearly a focus in athletic departments to set them up and if you don't set them up, talk to the donors that are setting them

up. Um, support them and find ways to

up. Um, support them and find ways to get money in the pockets of athletes.

Now, rather than these marketing deals being the the sole source of capital to recruit, there's this $20 million. Before we even

talk about how they're going to pay that, do you think that it's going to change the focus or the prioritization inside athletic departments um around

these NIL collectives? Do they go to the side or or is it even more uh growth there for or focus? I would say I think a little bit of both. So, and I think it

kind of depends on like which types of universities you're talking about, right? So if you're a tier one

right? So if you're a tier one university like an Ohio State or a Michigan or in my view a USC like you you know you're going to fully fund that

you know $20.5 million in year one you're going to figure out your split across sort of the sports and how you want to do it. You're probably for those schools that I mentioned for Duke. I

mean for Duke and USC for example it's different right? Duke's probably

different right? Duke's probably allocating way more for men's basketball um than USC is and then USC is probably allocating way more for football. But so

so figuring that all out is is sort of one priority. Where the collectives come

one priority. Where the collectives come in is, you know, anything above the 20.5 and if you want to sort of get a talented player um that and you need to sort of construct an entire roster, you

still need to find a way to pay that player, right? And so collectives will

player, right? And so collectives will need to do true NIL like when you know to your earlier point bringing like actual brand and sponsorship deals to them. And I think like collectives

them. And I think like collectives honestly will look a lot like agencies and and that in that matter where um they will have to sort of work with brands and local partners to facilitate

some of those things. And if you're a, you know, a fivestar footballer or basketball recruit and you want to go to Duke, there's like there's an amount of money that Duke will pay you directly and then the Duke Collective will uh

sort of bring, you know, true sponsors to you uh for for you know like true a real endorsement deal. And so I think the collective uh use case will still be

important and and will be there, but I think it'll be like more sort of siloed in terms of things they're focused on.

>> So this has always like thrown me for a loop. Like essentially that's what they

loop. Like essentially that's what they are, right? They're just kind of

are, right? They're just kind of agencies, right? So like

agencies, right? So like >> what does the ecosystem actually look like? If I'm a fivestar recruit and uh

like? If I'm a fivestar recruit and uh Duke says, "Hey, now we have this, you know, $20 million we're allowed to use for salaries. We're going to give you a

for salaries. We're going to give you a million bucks to come here." And then um you know, our NIL collective has these these deals lined up where we can guarantee you another 500 grand on top

if you do these engagements, whatever it might be. But I'm a fivestar recruit and

might be. But I'm a fivestar recruit and maybe I'm represented by CIA. Like this

just sounds hairy. Um, like h how do these things get managed and how do they flow? Like I I it always throws me for a

flow? Like I I it always throws me for a loop trying to like >> Yeah.

>> Like my brain likes to work in black and whites and and concrete and I'm like this is a messy network.

>> It's a very messy network. I mean around agencies and and and my point around it being like like it is an agency.

>> You've got different agencies already involved in the ecosystem. So like as you mentioned the the players now are getting repped by the these big agencies. You've got the coaches that

agencies. You've got the coaches that are rep by agencies as well. Might be a different one. It might be the same one.

different one. It might be the same one.

You've got brands that might also be rep by an agency, which again could be uh the same one or the different ones. Um

and then you've got the collectives that are acting like agencies um that are trying to sort of formulate all of this.

Um and in the middle, you also have some really interesting businesses um that are like being started that sort of help with some of this. Um like as an example, we're investors in a business called Fan Stake. And I think this is

where technologies can be really helpful, right? So like can you

helpful, right? So like can you facilitate these introductions, these payments um in in a more seamless way and like what fans sake does is for true

NIL sort of if if house is codified and these payments start for true NIL they'll work with collectives on finding brand deals getting them you know they're officially accredited by the NCAA so they'll get those deals to the

players and they can sort of manage all the risk and um the approvals and stuff needed for that as well. So, as an investor, I see a lot of opportunity in a platform like Fanstake to to

facilitate some of that. A lot of the sort of like, you know, hand-to-hand combat that will occur between the agents and the schools and how much each player gets paid, um, that is is very

much like not black and white.

>> Yeah.

>> Is that I guess it it's it's that that's the other thing that I' I've learned. you

know, we have Slam in JDS and we do a lot of this, you know, talent relations.

You know, athletes on the cover, they end up on a t-shirt.

>> Um, and and you have to do a lot of this mapping like who are the stakeholders, who do we talk to, how do we >> get the rights to to go monetize an athlete in their jersey.

>> Yeah.

>> With them, right? Yeah.

>> And the thing that I've learned between the NBA and college is in the NBA, it's not necessarily uniform between athlete and and team and whatever, but like it's it's pretty similar. You know, if if you want to get

similar. You know, if if you want to get something done, you go to the league, you go to the players association, you go to the players agent, you you you get the sign off on this, you have the rights for that, and then not that you

can just rinse and repeat, but it it's 30 controlled teams with a rule book for a lot of how they handle rights.

>> The college space >> is even before all of this >> chaos got thrown into it was already more fragmented and and difficult to figure out. There's no standardization.

figure out. There's no standardization.

Yeah.

>> Yeah. And to like to your point earlier, it's like it feels very much at this point given all the changes like it's a professional ecosystem, right? You've

got billions of dollars in media rights.

You've got multimedia rights for sponsorships for each of these schools that are really, really hefty. And so,

you've got a lot of revenue that feels like a professional entity. But then the stability of it relative to like to a big four sports league is like very minimal, right? You don't have stability

minimal, right? You don't have stability around players. you don't have stability

around players. you don't have stability around conferences and teams. Um there's like you know a lot of instability in the ecosystem right now around fundraising and how much you know

economic stability there is uh from the from the broader universities and funding these athletic departments. Um

and you could invest a bunch of money in a player and then that player leaves you know the next year like there's no sort of standardized contracts or protections in there for the player or for the

university. And so, um, the lack of like

university. And so, um, the lack of like structural elements I think is like is very very clear, especially now that the economic value and like the risk that that these athletic departments are

taking is so high as well.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Yeah. So, let's talk a little bit about the path forward.

>> Yeah. Um,

you know, I think we agree, right, that this is a um, in large part, if not solely, it due to a lot of the shortcomings of the NCAA.

Um, there's chaos and there's also economic risk um, to these athletic departments and the future stability of college

sports as a whole.

I don't think people are crazy for seeing something like the SAFE Act in Congress at face value and saying,

"Well, if we just give the NCA cart blanch, um, that puts a band-aid on this and they can go back to writing rules

and enforcing them." Um, you know, at face value, you see all these problems and you're like, "We need to do something."

something." >> Yeah. Um, Adam Brenman, friend of ours,

>> Yeah. Um, Adam Brenman, friend of ours, you're going to talk to him tomorrow, had on um the the House of Representatives um member from South Carolina. Yep.

>> What's what's his name? I'm blanking on it.

>> Fry might be his last name.

>> Yeah.

>> And they had a conversation. Fry is a supporter of the SAFE Act, which is essentially a motion that started in the

Senate. Ted Cruz is leading it um to

Senate. Ted Cruz is leading it um to grant the NCAA antitrust law exemption.

>> Yeah.

>> Um you know, these issues are stemming from the NCAA afraid to write and enforce rules because they don't actually have a leg

to stand on based on antitrust law.

>> Yeah. And then if we say if the NCAA doesn't have to abide by antitrust law then in some ways we can go back to the old world.

>> Yeah. Um I understand why Adam Brenamman had him on. I love Adam. Adam is as smart as they come. He's doing a lot of great things. Um in that conversation

great things. Um in that conversation I don't think that they went deep enough into the problems with that path forward.

>> Yeah.

>> Um but I would love to hear you kind of break that down. um and explain why that's not the path forward.

>> Yeah, I mean like candidly I think that that plan and the way it's been sort of proposed is very very uh beneficial for the NCAA and the universities because it

prevents them from getting sued. It like

doesn't classify um college athletes as employees and doesn't give them certain protections. it like I think it even

protections. it like I think it even limits like transfers to to one time uh without losing eligibility. Um and so it very much feels like okay we're bringing

stability into the ecosystem but with a lens from okay we're we're building stability into the system for colleges and for the NCAA.

>> Yeah.

>> Um to me it doesn't really protect athletes in in any way. And I think >> any solution that we sort of come to as an industry needs to start with the

athletes. Um you even look at like

athletes. Um you even look at like realignment for example and that benefited the universities right um but like was anyone really talking about to

the athletes about this our friend Jim um at athletes.org or like I think has mentioned this before as well like no one was really hearing the voice of the college athletes like do I want to grow cross country for to play my games like

what does that mean if I'm truly a student and I want to get a degree like the voice of the student athletes is very much lost in this and I think that proposal is just another example of that.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I saw a statistic that the West Coast teams that joined East Coast conferences um so USC UCLA Oregon >> Washington

>> Yeah. If you look at the flight logs of

>> Yeah. If you look at the flight logs of individual sports in one season, they will have traveled like >> I'm gonna butcher the number, but it was like tens of thousands of miles. Yeah.

>> That you are going to be traveling from the west coast to the east coast >> to compete all while trying to get a degree at a school like USC or Oregon.

Like that's not easy to do.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. And nobody ever asked the athlete, >> can can you do that? Right. and and the NCAA's pushed back on it with saying, you know, we have things in place like SAC, student athlete comm uh advisory

committee where, you know, they hold focus groups and they talk to them. But

if you open up what those things are, I had friends that were on those committees, they were opportunities to go put something nice on your resume.

>> Yeah. Um, maybe they would inform you a bit, but like there was no, you know, you can say they had a voice, maybe they had some level of a voice, but they

didn't have a vote, right? There was no vote for, hey, you can't make us fly all this time while expecting to be a premed student, you know, or an engineer, right? Like

right? Like >> the NCA says that they are for the student athlete experience.

>> But that doesn't really look true when you look at real alignment, does it?

>> No, it doesn't. And I think like what you know I worry about as a fan of the game as a as someone who like wants to support student athletes is like this next big change of college sports.

College realignment was one of them or conference realignment was one of them is like will the voices of the athletes be heard this time right? Um and I know we'll talk more about this later but like I think the only way that happens

is if they have a seat at the table. The

only way they get a seat at the table is through some sort of collective bargaining. Um, and I think like that is

bargaining. Um, and I think like that is that is critical like not just for the athletes, but I actually think it's critical for the universities and the NCAA and and whatever the governing body

looks like in the future because if your if your product, which is these student athletes and like how amazing they are at what they do, if they are unsatisfied with the construct and they don't have a

voice, it might not blow up right now, but it will blow up eventually. Um, and

so it is much and that's the reason why all all the major sports leagues have, >> you know, players associations, they have CBAs in place.

>> Um, and I think that's what that's what college needs.

>> Yeah, it's definitely what college needs. Um, yeah, Jim said it really

needs. Um, yeah, Jim said it really well. I heard him speaking actually. I

well. I heard him speaking actually. I

think it was a debate where >> Yeah.

>> Um, he was somebody was arguing on the side of the NCA's antitrust law exemption. He's saying so we want to

exemption. He's saying so we want to grant a serial antitrust law violator cart blanch in rulem going forward

>> and to point out that all of the issues that exist today are their inability to address and evolve with the times.

>> I mean >> essentially the NCAA price fixed labor in their industry at zero.

>> Yeah.

>> For all of its existence.

>> They got away with it. Um, and you know, ultimately what it comes down to is we have the problem where there aren't rules and we need a system for making rules. Yep. And we don't want to grant

rules. Yep. And we don't want to grant the NCA unilateral decision-m for this because they've already messed it up a bunch. Right. That's that's kind of what

bunch. Right. That's that's kind of what it boils down to in my opinion. So then

you have to ask, well, what's our alternative? Yeah.

>> The alternative is the collective bargain agreement where you write a rule book, both sides get to negotiate.

>> Yeah. And then lawsuits won't follow because we these are agreed upon >> and you know like if you're a university you okay you know you you're now you the house settlement happens 20 $20.5

million that you have to now pay if you want to be competitive in these sports CBA in place you know you have your costs are controlled you know what you're going to you know bring in you know how much of that you're going to

have to pay out you know if you're a college uh athletic director or a college GM or a head coach you know Okay, this is what my roster can look like. I can maybe give out multi-year

like. I can maybe give out multi-year contracts. I can set salary caps and

contracts. I can set salary caps and floors. Like, it's better for everyone

floors. Like, it's better for everyone involved. I think the reason it's not

involved. I think the reason it's not happening is because of the NCAA because I mean I think the NCA realizes that they have screwed up this entire

situation. Um, and they will they're

situation. Um, and they will they're losing power day in and day out. Um, the

conference are gaining power. Um,

individual institutions are gaining power and then players will gain power.

Um, and so they're afraid and and personally I personally believe like the NCAA shouldn't, you know, if you ask me like five 10 years from now, like what what role is the NCAA playing? In my

ideal world, it's really not playing as big of a role, right? Maybe they are, you know, they they are operating some of the events and the tournaments have done a great job of that with, you know, men's and women's basketball tournament, for example. Maybe there's some sort of

for example. Maybe there's some sort of involvement with the Olympic sports given sort of the history of the NCAA in terms of like running these types of events. But for college football,

events. But for college football, college basketball, um, like I I I really think it's got to be some sort of new entity that that sort of takes us forward.

>> Yeah. So, let's talk about that. You

know, you bring up private equity. You

you hone in on the $20 million that has to get paid.

>> Um, like what's the what's the first shoe to drop? like how do we actually take a

drop? like how do we actually take a step forward and get out of this what seems like you know just horrible place

that we've been for a couple years. Um

you know I people say it a lot like private equity is coming for private sport to to to college sports. Um like

what does that mean to you and like how does that start to happen and why is that potentially good? Because to me, you know, I come from a family of uh doctors.

>> Yeah.

>> And um I also work in private equity and I see a lot of public scrutiny like >> oh you know private equity gets in the hospitals and then they start right and like there's there's there's truth to

>> you know uh certain industries becoming very bottom line oriented.

>> Absolutely. problems happen and then they need to be paid attention to and fixed and people don't always associate private equity with good for your industry. Right.

industry. Right.

>> So, but I I I think that private equity probably is core to the path forward.

>> Yeah.

>> Um but like what when you hear private equity in college sports, what do you think and h and how do we actually start progressing in a path that >> helps? Look, I think in an ideal world,

>> helps? Look, I think in an ideal world, if like the NCAA had done their job, private equity wouldn't be needed, right? But I think we're at a moment now

right? But I think we're at a moment now where private equity is needed. Um,

primarily just given the cost and the economic structures that are that are taking place.

>> So, because of the $20 million that athletic departments need to pay rather than cutting Olympic sports.

>> Yeah.

>> You think private equity is a viable?

>> Yeah. And it's not just the $20 million, it's like how how is that number growing? how a lot of these uh like

growing? how a lot of these uh like departments are already running in deficits with like these major capital projects which by the way they needed to do to compete with other schools that

are are doing that. Um there is like the open question around sort of you know our our um athletes our college athletes employees like there's just a lot of instability as we've talked about in

this conversation. I think private

this conversation. I think private equity is like is a shoe to drop, but I don't think it's like the the first shoe to drop necessarily that like solves everything. I think the reason we're

everything. I think the reason we're seeing like I mean college athletics makes a ton of sense for private equity for a lot of reasons, right? Like

>> um if you can control uh sort of like the collective bargaining side of things, which by the way, I think like the private equity institutions will want that to happen as well because that is like their big that would become their biggest sort of like costline

item. Mhm.

item. Mhm.

>> Um you have a lot of makings of a very attractive business, right? You've got

contractually guaranteed revenues through meteorites, through sponsorship deals. Um there's a reason why like in

deals. Um there's a reason why like in the in the Big 10 um enterprises deal that's being contemplated right now with um the California um pension, there's a reason why in that there it would be an

extension of the Bill of Rights for the Big 10, right? Where like the member institutions have to stay on for an extra 10 years beyond what they have today. Like stability is what private

today. Like stability is what private equity looks for. And I think college has a lot of instability today, but like has the makings of of of being a very like stable ecosystem.

>> Yeah, let's go deeper on that because I remember when um the you know PE dollars coming for college sports conversations first started happening and you know my

knee-jerk reaction is oh is that an opportunity for JDS sports? Let's go look at you know

sports? Let's go look at you know athletic departments that are fun and exciting. And then you know 30 seconds

exciting. And then you know 30 seconds later I'm like these places are chaotic.

Yes of course that's sometimes opportunity but where is the growth? You

know dig deeper and you find those answers and and come to the light but like how have you done that analysis and why do you actually believe that this is an investable opportunity?

>> Yeah.

>> For different investors despite the fact that um you know there's a bunch of trouble ahead.

>> Yeah. I think it's it depends on like where you're injecting capital into the ecosystem and at what level you're doing that, right? So like at the school

that, right? So like at the school level, I'm personally more bearish on it because >> um at the school level, you control certain things, right? You can control what you're doing in your stadium if you have, you know, some sort of ref share

there. You can, you know, control your

there. You can, you know, control your your apparel deal and um some of your school sponsorship deals. Like that's

what you could control your ticketing, things like that. You can't control your media rights deals, right? unless you're

like Notre Dame and you're independent like everything else is sort of being dictated for you by the conferences and so I think putting private equity to work at uh the school level is tough.

Some of the schools that are in you know precarious situations might still take private equity or they might take some sort of like debt facility um to sort of uh to to figure it out. Um so there

might be some different constructs there. Um I think the conference level

there. Um I think the conference level is is better but I still don't think it solves all the issues. So like again the Big 10 Enterprises deal right now which um for people watching you know uh is

being pushed back pretty heavily from Michigan and USC um it feels like the other member institutions are on board.

Um that would be I think it's like a $2.4 billion deal uh for for roughly 10% of Big 10 enterprises. What that would do is like set aside create a new entity called Big 10 Enterprises that would

have all of the sort of like Big 10 revenue rights effectively, right? their

media rights, their sponsorship rights, things like that. And in exchange, those schools will get a onetime $2.4 billion cash infusions and then split amongst sort of the the the 18 schools.

And so each school is getting, you know, a hundred to $180 million depending on the tier of school that you fall into, which is an awesome sort of one-time capital infusion if you're like USC,

you're building a new facility, or you have to pay um a buyout if you're Penn State. like it it does it does sort of

State. like it it does it does sort of really uh help in the short term.

>> There still is I would say like limited upside though in terms of like true revenue generation at the conference level um because your meteorites are locked in for the next several years. Um

you can play with sponsorship packages but it almost kind of goes back to the school level because a lot of those are like hyper localized anyways. And so in my view, I think where private equity should play is at step up even above

conferences, which is like can you create basically a new NCAA, right? And

like one entity that controls all of college sports, including the college football playoff, including the men's and women's March Madness tournaments, um, and including Olympic sports as

well. And can private equity capitalize

well. And can private equity capitalize that entity? And then you kind of pull

that entity? And then you kind of pull everything together, right? Okay. And

then you do see some synergies um on on the revenue side as well.

>> Yeah, I agree. I think that's the best argument and the and the biggest opportunity. Um you know, if you want to

opportunity. Um you know, if you want to like forecast out what the SEC's media value is at their next deal or the Big

10's at their next deal, like there will be some step up >> definitely. But um you know if they were

>> definitely. But um you know if they were to combine then it would probably be a larger pie for both of them. Um that was like a concept that was relatively

unfamiliar to me until the last couple years. Um and you look at history

years. Um and you look at history actually supports this. Um the NFL did this right where um they used to have two separate leagues. The you know revenue was not shared from the media

deal in the way that it is today. It was

all regional sports networks >> and you were controlling your own rights. The New York Giants were

rights. The New York Giants were >> major benefactors of that. It gave them a competitive advantage if they were, you know, against whoever else, uh, Cleveland or I don't know if Cleveland existed yet, but whoever else it was,

the small fish.

>> Um, instead they combined everyone's media rights.

>> They did a revenue sharing model where everybody got paid equally on these national rights >> and the overall pie grew. So maybe the

giant sliver of that pie was smaller than what they were doing alone because now they were also subsidizing the group. But what it did was provide

group. But what it did was provide long-term stability.

>> Definitely. And there's a reason why like that that same model that you've you've sort of described is like, you know, the NBA, the MLB, NHL don't have that. They still sort of have relied on

that. They still sort of have relied on more of a regional model, but they've increasingly tried to get as much more as as as as much national as they can and even like consolidate these rights again.

>> Yeah. Um

>> yeah and and the what I saw was that there this step up in total pi actually might be as big as 1 and a half to 2 and

1/2 to 3x >> for total revenue from meteorites if you were simply to consolidate.

>> Yeah.

>> Um so now it starts to make sense where okay if we're going to double revenue there is room for investment dollars today and revenue sharing in the future

with private equity. % that makes sense even with new costs. Um, you know, you can do that math equation. I think it's like 22% of like current division one

topline revenue will now be paid to athletes. So, it's a big portion. But if

athletes. So, it's a big portion. But if

we're talking now about a two or 3x jump if we consolidate the rights, >> it starts to make sense. I think the question is though,

college sports is unique because there'sund and however many division one teams like football teams. I think there's like 140 or something like that.

>> Yeah.

>> Um even more basketball and Olympic sports and there's Olympic sports. It's

not just football which is driving all the revenue.

The contra example to the NFL is actually what happened in the English Premier League in I think it was the '9s.

>> Yeah.

>> Where rather than the top dog saying we'll consolidate the rights and share in revenue with everyone, the top dogs broke off and said we're going to start our own thing. Yeah.

>> And that succeeded as the English Premier League. So I'm getting the names

Premier League. So I'm getting the names wrong, but it's basically the opposite.

Um, and you know, I think consolidation is going to happen. My

question is ultimately, you know, we don't have the answer to this, but it's Ohio State, Georgia, Alabama, whoever the big players are going to have to sit around

in a room and say, "How big are we going?"

going?" >> Yeah.

>> Who comes with us?

>> Yeah.

>> And what are we going to subsidize for the sake of the future of college sports? Yeah.

sports? Yeah.

>> Which is tricky.

>> Yeah. It's very tricky. Um,

I think this also this is also where I think it's really important to have the athlete voice involved, right? Because

if you're >> the ads of Notre Dame, Michigan, Ohio State Alabama Georgia USC UCLA

>> like you you can't be having this conversation about athletes being involved.

>> Yeah. Um and and I I think like there are there those schools can go, you know, create a super league or whatever or whatever is the right term. Um they

would probably be better off individually in terms of their uh in terms of like their their topline, but the ecosystem I think would would

suffer. Um and I actually think in the

suffer. Um and I actually think in the long term it would hurt them as well.

like in the next 3 to 5 years it would probably help them. But in terms of like the growth with the game, the stability of the ecosystem, the satisfaction from fans, like all of that would take it would take a major hit in a super league

situation. And so

situation. And so >> I think something like you you described in sort of European soccer that I think is is the wrong way for us to sort of move as an industry um despite sort of

the the short-term benefits for for some of these bigger schools.

>> Yeah. I think the the challenge too is that, you know, I used the New York Giants as as my example. The Giants had an ownership group that was looking at, you know, their lifetime.

>> Yeah.

>> As the owner of the New York Giants and a member of the National Football League, >> whereas there's an athletic director at all these SEC and Big 10 schools. um

most of them are are very intelligent people, but the life cycle of their career and whatnot is a little bit different of a equation.

>> Yeah, definitely.

>> And you know, you hope that um I would imagine all all of them are like us.

They love college sports. That's why

they're in it, you know.

>> Totally.

>> Um but incentives rule the world. So it

it's it's tricky. I think we're going to start to find out soon.

What do you think the timeline is for some of these things to start appearing?

And I I guess in the Big 10 it's starting to happen, but I agree with you. I don't think that Big 10 deal is

you. I don't think that Big 10 deal is what makes the most sense. I think it's it's a super league or like a you know NCAA level consolidation.

>> Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

>> Yeah. In terms of timing, like there's a lot of different ways that this can go, right? So, I think there's like the

right? So, I think there's like the legislation side of things as well. Um,

and whether it's the SCORE act or the SAFE Act or any of these other like pieces of legislation that may sort of actually be presented in Congress, like they'll obviously have to get through Congress, which will be, you know, there

there'll be a whole political debate around that as well. Um, what happens with the legislation, I think particularly around a couple key things.

One, the like antitrust exemption for the NCAA. Um, one of the proposals

the NCAA. Um, one of the proposals called for this like model around like pooling uh, media rights. And so what does that mean for like the revenue that

can be generated? Uh, are athletes employees or or or contractors?

Um, what does like NIL look like outside of like there's there's a lot of these open questions uh, that the legislation may help solve which I think will flow down to sort of like

>> the economic impact to the schools. And

so legislation is one thing that could happen or it could just never happen, right? Because of of how slowly things

right? Because of of how slowly things may move. Um and so I think the the the

may move. Um and so I think the the the other first shooter to drop could be more on the private equity side. Um and

and I think that is just going to probably happen at a conference level.

Um the Big 10's had these conversations.

The Big 12 has had these conversations.

Um obviously a bunch of individual institutions have as well. Um, but it I think it's just going to take a lot of coordination required to get the the Big 10 and the SEC and the Big 12 and, you

know, whatever's left of the Pack 12, um, and Notre Dame, uh, which operates independently, all on the same page.

Like, that's not going to happen overnight. Um, and so I I think we're

overnight. Um, and so I I think we're we're, you know, a ways away from sort of like a new entity being formed.

>> Um, it's a little bit chicken and the egg, right? It's like how do you sort of

egg, right? It's like how do you sort of get these uh these universities and these conferences on board for a new construct? I think this is where it's

construct? I think this is where it's going to take like enterprising athletic director um at one of these top universities um or an a really like

thought, you know, thoughtful and and forward thinking private equity firm um that thinks that they can put forward a proposal that sort of works for all parties involved. Yeah. It's tricky

parties involved. Yeah. It's tricky

because like the like my take is that it'll probably, you know, the ones most likely to feel the the pains of the current economic situation are not the

ones with the most sway.

>> Definitely right. So, um, you know, if you're in the bottom of the Big 10, if you're Ruckers, I love Ruckers, they're in a tough spot right now. They're in a ton of debt. They're trying to compete at the next level in the Big 10, and they need to start paying their

athletes. They're in a tough spot. There

athletes. They're in a tough spot. There

will be these scenarios uh in the the Big 10 and the SEC, but it's more like the ACC, the Big 12, um and then everybody that's right under beneath

them that's also giving us exciting sports really going to struggle to compete in a world where you have to pay your athletes. Those are the teams that

your athletes. Those are the teams that would be jumping to find a solution.

Yeah. whereas, you know, the the big dogs um have less of a sense of urgency.

Yeah. Less of an incentive to move today.

>> I think that it'll take, >> like you said, a a very forwardthinking um aggressive capital source, and it'll take a maverick. It'll take somebody who

who yeah who is a thought leader who who gets the biggest athletic departments within the conferences together um and says this is the path forward. And I

think it also helps that the public discourse is increasingly talking like you and I.

It's it's only gone in one way. I I

actually have no >> you know there's there I won't speak in absolutes but >> I don't think the Safe Act is getting through Congress. I don't think

through Congress. I don't think anybody's rushing to say the NCAA, you have all your powers back. Um,

>> no.

>> Yeah, I don't think that's happening.

>> Um, and I am hearing more and more >> collective bargain agreement from athletic directors, conference heads, um, coaches, athletes, um, more and more

every day coming out and saying that is the path forward. We need a rule book.

This is how we write it.

>> Definitely. And like to your point around incentives um it's even within the same conferences right you do have like misaligned incentives to your point around Ruters

like same conference as you know Michigan and Ohio State like it's it's it's just a different >> it's a different ballgame for them and so this is where like I think those top

institutions would love to sort of have independence and like make their own decisions they are tied to the Big 10 and the SEC in these in certain situations. And so, um, I'm in some ways

situations. And so, um, I'm in some ways thankful that sort of the realignment happened a couple years ago and there is sort of like economic structures in place a little bit to prevent some of

these schools from going out and and um breaking away because I do think it would hurt this the maybe smaller institutions and at some of these conferences as well.

>> While on the topic, I do want to get your thoughts on this as well. Uh, I saw today um I don't know how recent this

was, but a US senator um calling for investigation into the nonprofit status

of inst uh colleges and their athletic departments if private equity starts investing in them.

>> Yeah. It becomes even more in question.

Um I don't have a really strong opinion on this. I think it's this thing that's

on this. I think it's this thing that's kind of floating around in in the conversation that >> um isn't being directly addressed a ton.

>> Do you have an opinion on whether or not that they're nonprofit status should be altered and like what would the implications of that actually be?

>> Yeah, I first of all I'm definitely not an expert on this and I think I think it like goes way beyond um athletics, right? because this goes to like

right? because this goes to like government funding and you know hospital systems which by the way are like even bigger revenue drivers for these universities than their athletic departments are. Yeah.

departments are. Yeah.

>> Um, so I think like I mean in a really wild world maybe there's a a world in which like you spin out the athletic departments outside of the like university ecosystem, >> right?

>> And those are not nonprofits but the rest of the universities are because I think you need them to be nonprofits for yeah for academic funding for the hospital side of things for grants and things of that nature.

>> Um I mean you've got Open AI that was a nonprofit right and it raised billions of dollars of capital. So I I think uh yeah, I mean it's it's probably a little

bit more semantics than than not, but um yeah, we'll we'll let Sam Alman figure out.

>> Yeah, college sports will call Sam Elman to I think Sam would be a better than Trump. I think Trump's trying to save

Trump. I think Trump's trying to save college sports and we'll call Sam Elman first.

>> Sam Sam's also spending a lot of time in the White House these days.

>> He is spending a lot of time in the White House. Yeah. All right, cool. Um,

White House. Yeah. All right, cool. Um,

all right. So, I think we we're we're clearly pretty aligned on how things look, where they might be going. What we

haven't talked to about is, you know, I don't think either of us are working for places that are going to write uh, you

know, a billion dollars or $500 million checks to start the new league. I mean,

maybe there's a way for each of us um to professionally participate.

>> Yeah. in the future in that sense.

>> But we are both working at investment firms that are focused on sports.

>> So what are you seeing out there that is a new opportunity? Um or like what have you invested in in the past that is being now impacted?

>> How how is like your investor cap changed?

>> Yeah.

>> With college sports? Yeah, I mean as an investor it's a really interesting time because there the instability usually drives changes and structural changes which creates like opportunity for investment, right? So we've looked at it

investment, right? So we've looked at it from a few few different ways. Um

there's athletes out of work. Uh we

think that like there needs to be an entity that sort of stabilizes that. Um

stabilizes the entire sort of structure of college sports. Um I mentioned fans think earlier. We think like software is

think earlier. We think like software is a much better facilitator of some of these transactions. It's much more open.

these transactions. It's much more open.

and it's easier to track. Um it sort of reduces the burden on both athletic departments and collectives as well as brands. Um so Fanick's like a great

brands. Um so Fanick's like a great example of of you know a really strong founding team, very strong technical team that's built Silicon Valley products now building for um sort of the

college space. Uh one space that I think

college space. Uh one space that I think is really interesting is insurance. Um

so as the economic value at stake here is like getting extremely high uh the risk for the universities is also getting very high. Um so we're investors

in a companies company called players health um which is starting to do a lot now in the college space. Um they'll do things like you know uh fraud uh risk

protection um NIL insurance and protection now um injury protection. Um

now with the transfer portal uh they're doing transfer protection as well. So if

you pay you know a bunch of money for a player in year one and they transfer in year two like you can get some money back. And so I think the insurance side

back. And so I think the insurance side is really interesting as like the the amount of money coming to the ecosystem is is really high. Um schools naturally will sort of need to have insurance

coverage in place. Um so those are some things we're seeing um sort of directly related to I would say this the core sports side of things. Uh one of the other things I would say that's been a

big benefit from just like the NIL world is like athletes and have really become their own influencers and really their own brands. And so, you know, there's a

own brands. And so, you know, there's a whole set of sort of software businesses around that space. We've backed a a startup that's still in stealth that works with brands to connect them with influencers and they're starting to do a

lot more work um in the college sports space. Um, you know, we're seeing

space. Um, you know, we're seeing college uh college athletes that are effectively becoming their own media personalities and launching consumer brands. And so, we've started investing

brands. And so, we've started investing in some of those types of categories as well. Yeah, I've seen um you know, you

well. Yeah, I've seen um you know, you wrote an awesome thought piece essay um on the creator economy and um different

models for participating, investing in it along with creators. I thought it was incredible.

>> Um >> is it fair to say that >> now that athletes are this new segment of the creator economy, >> Yeah. It's an opportunity for startups

>> Yeah. It's an opportunity for startups to look at them and say this is something that's growing and this is an underserved portion of that larger ecosystem.

>> Yeah.

um or you know larger addressable market and this is you know where I hyperfocus and and wedge in and then it can become a venturebacked opportunity if this is something that

actually serves the greater creator economy or do you look at it as something is big enough with college athletes in a vacuum? Yeah, I think like

the college athletes I view like if if you're looking just like on the branding side of it and like more on like the influencer side of it, I view them as a subset of the broader creator economy.

Um, you know, you look at someone like Libby Don and like Bird following and like what that's become.

>> Um, she's very much like a creator and influencer now as much as she is an athlete and like you know someone that's extremely talented um in her sport. Um,

so I think that's a little bit separate and I think as like I would sort of almost bucket that as like you know we invest not only in sports but also in the creator economy. I almost view that more as a creator economy investment. I

think the sports sort of the college sports types investments that we would do as a firm are more sort of on the insurance and software um sort of categories that I've sort of already

mentioned. Um, where I think it's really

mentioned. Um, where I think it's really interesting is like there are a few sort of like more back office type businesses that will happen like payroll processing, health insurance processing,

things like that that >> um will sort of be needed as like the this you know $20.5 million starts flowing into you know effectively

employees whether they're called employees or not um around the around the the US. And so I think there's going to be a lot of like more traditional businesses being started there as well.

>> Yeah. So that I I it's kind of a similar question for me is you know whether you're looking at college sports from we'll call it like B to C is things that serve

the athlete.

>> Yeah.

>> Versus B2B things that serve the department.

>> Yeah.

>> New opportunities and new needs are arising.

I don't know that like SAS models hyperfocused on athletic departments is the biggest market ever, right? So, how

do you how do you think about that? And

are you seeing athletic departments spend money?

>> Um, on one hand, I would say they're spending so much money. Look at all the things they're doing. They're trying to compete, but on the other hand, I would say they're also like super budget constrainted all of a sudden. So, like

what are you seeing there and how do you think about these things as venture investment opportunities?

>> Yeah, definitely. So, I'll answer your second question first, which is I think athlete athletic departments are spending where they need to. Um,

>> but they're not the best customers, right? Like they're not going to spend a

right? Like they're not going to spend a ton of money or be really high ACV contracts.

>> Um, but there are a lot of them. So,

like the the number of potential customers is is definitely high. Um, and

there's been some like, you know, pretty scaled businesses like like Teamworks, for example, that, you know, has made a lot of their money selling into college >> um, athletic departments. Um the way that I would think about it as a venture

investor is like you know you can sell into college athletic departments um and administrators and and athletes but like that can't be your only segment and

you've got to sort of do things you know beyond that ecosystem right so um player health which I mentioned earlier is a great example of this um they're not only servicing the college industry like

they're working with youth sports and amateur sports and they're now starting to work with professional sports leagues and So they're covering the entire sort of sporting journey, right, from when you first start playing little league to

when you're, you know, potentially playing in the MLB like and that and that's their goal, right? Is to be able to have insurance products sort of across the ecosystem. Yep.

>> Um, another one of our portfolio companies is a company called Jump um co-founded uh by Jordy Lizer, Mark Lori, and Alex Rodriguez. And it's a new ticketing startup. And so, you know,

ticketing startup. And so, you know, they've done deals in the NWSL. They

signed with the Minnesota Timberwolves and launched with them earlier this year. Um but they're expo exploring you

year. Um but they're expo exploring you know potential partnerships with colleges as well down the line. Um and

you know ticketing is a is a great is something that college departments need but it's also something that professional organizations need. So I

view it as a little bit like that where can you solve the problems that college athletic departments are facing but can you also sort of expand um beyond just selling to colleges as well?

>> Cool. Do you want to talk a bit about that creator piece that you wrote?

Because I think, you know, we we did a little bit of like um >> doom and gloom on this podcast, but I don't think that's how we feel. It's

like there are problems and >> there is a unified uh path forward for addressing them.

>> Um it will get better and college are not going anywhere. Yeah,

>> I think an exciting conversation to have is it's never been a better time in in most of the ways to be a college athlete. The

opportunities you have, you know, you're dealing with a lot of BS, >> but the opportunities you have >> um to build your personal brand, to make money in that small window when most of

us don't play professional sports, um is great. And you guys put out an awesome

great. And you guys put out an awesome piece on the creator economy um that I think is relevant to a college athlete who's listening to this that says, "I want to grow my brand."

>> Yeah.

>> Um I'd love to hear you dig in on that a bit. I thought that was that was really

bit. I thought that was that was really bright.

>> Yeah. Yeah. So I I co-wrote this with with my colleague Aaron Miller at Well Ventures. Um you know, it's really

Ventures. Um you know, it's really interesting. I think like the barriers

interesting. I think like the barriers to entry to becoming like an amazing YouTube creator today um or an influencer whatever you call it are like the barriers are extremely low right you

can get started and you can grow organically you take someone like Mr. beast. You know, he's for as, you know,

beast. You know, he's for as, you know, big of a business as he's built, you know, multi00 million business raising capital at a multi-billion dollar valuation, he started, you know, less

than a decade ago. Uh, you know, it's like it's it's it's insane to see his growth. Um, and there's there's a bunch

growth. Um, and there's there's a bunch of other stories like that as well. Um,

and I think what's amazing is like when I look at the way that young athletes or sorry not young athletes, young fans are engaging with media and like their idols

today, um, it's changed a lot where like a lot of their favorite sort of celebrities are YouTubers, right? And

so, um, you know, there's there's a YouTuber by the name of Jesser, for example, who's a big sports creator, one of the fastest growing sports creator on creators on the platform. and uh Aaron

actually my my colleague his cousins are like massive Jester fans.

>> Um so much so like I I would argue Jester is probably a bigger celebrity for them than certain NBA players are.

Um and so you I mean you can even make the argument that someone like Jester is a professional athlete cuz he does um you know all of his content is sort of sports focused. Um and and so the

sports focused. Um and and so the opportunity is like really limitless if you're an athlete today in college or even if you're in high school athlete um and you don't really play well in

college or or make it to the pros to create a business around you. But look

at what destroying has done um like D's another great example of this where you know he had his challenges. He was one of the first sort of casualties of the NIL era. Um and he's I mean obviously

NIL era. Um and he's I mean obviously he's a very talented athlete. He's he's

a professional athlete um even today.

Um, but I would say the average kid knows him for his YouTube channel and for the business he's built there, um, more so than than his playing career.

Um, and I think what's what's what's really awesome is like, you know, there's the media side of the business, but once you actually sort of create the media side and have like the platform to

sort of to to build off of, you can monetize that through a bunch of different ways, right? So like take Mr. Beast as an example. um he's making way more money from festivals than he is

from his actual content, right?

>> He's launched an Amazon Prime show. Um

he's starting to do a lot more work in technology. Um he's starting to do live

technology. Um he's starting to do live events. He's got merchandise. And so you

events. He's got merchandise. And so you you kind of get like a a media company similar to Disney which has you know theme parks and streaming services and you know feature length films and TV

shows. The same way Disney has like

shows. The same way Disney has like their flywheel. um a lot of these sort

their flywheel. um a lot of these sort of creators um do as well and it's it's you know something that athletes and and college athletes can do as well.

>> Yeah, it's really cool. Um yeah, like the Libby Dunn's the example. We'll see

how big she goes. Um I don't I don't think her moment is anywhere near done.

>> And the ambition really matters here, right? Like I think Mr. Beast has done

right? Like I think Mr. Beast has done an awesome job. Like he's been he's had really like strong ambitions to build like a massive business, right? Um, for

other creators, like that's just like not their focus. Like they want to have um a great business for themselves and they don't want to burn themselves out and like um they don't want to get too

big. And so it just sort of depends on

big. And so it just sort of depends on what what you're looking for. Um and and like yeah, again, Libby is a great example of this. She can sort of take it wherever she wants probably, right? she

could >> really scale things up and >> um launch more brands and and do more in sports um around sort of the the the following that she's been able to gain.

Um and or she could sort of decide to just sort of like keep things a little bit more.

>> So the the verticals that you guys invest in at Wool Ventures are sports.

>> Yeah. So I would say it's expanding, right? I think um when the firm first

right? I think um when the firm first started out um when Brian Isaiah started World Ventures back in late 2019, early 2020 um a lot of our initial investments were in the sports category. Um as we've

grown the team and we've sort of raised more capital, um I would say that the the core things we focus on are sports, entertainment, and consumer. Um and then specifically within consumer um it's,

you know, consumer brands and like like CPG and then a lot around the consumer health and wellness space as well.

>> Gotcha. What else are you seeing that's interesting? I know you wrote um another

interesting? I know you wrote um another piece on uh how is AI actually impacting the sports industry.

>> Um I don't know if you want to talk about that or um if there's anything else that you're like diving deep into.

>> Yeah, so we're like a very research focused firm and so there's honestly at any given time a bunch of different things that we're we're noodling on. Um,

and I think for each of those categories that we look at, right, like sports, um, entertainment and consumer, there's like different trends. So, maybe I'll just

different trends. So, maybe I'll just touch on one, um, for for each of them.

So, for sports, yeah, we talked about the, you know, the impact of AI in sports. Uh, I think we're starting to

sports. Uh, I think we're starting to see that like you I think there's a lot out there on like how AI is changing industries and some of it's real and some of it's not. I think sports is like no different. Um, where it feels like

no different. Um, where it feels like people have been talking about it for a while. The same thing kind of happened

while. The same thing kind of happened with, you know, AR and VR and nothing really materialized. Um, in sports, a

really materialized. Um, in sports, a couple things that I think are really interesting. So, ticketing, I mentioned

interesting. So, ticketing, I mentioned the company jump that we backed um, previously. Um, but I think like the

previously. Um, but I think like the ticketing industry sort of been very stagnant for the last several decades.

Um, and so the ability for teams to sort of own that ticketing relationship with their fans more directly, I think is really interesting and Jump enables that. Um, I think there's some really

that. Um, I think there's some really interesting businesses on the translation side of things that are AI driven. Um, as leagues, you know, look

driven. Um, as leagues, you know, look to be more global. The NBA is already very global. The NFL, I think, is I

very global. The NFL, I think, is I think I saw today, is adding even more international games that, you know, league, which has historically been very North American focus, is going more global. Like language matters a lot. And

global. Like language matters a lot. And

I think AI has a really strong use case around being able to to translate. Um,

there's a company called Lingo Pal that's that's done pretty well in that sector. um you know sponsorship um is is

sector. um you know sponsorship um is is another one where I think AI is starting to be used in sports. Um I I think I'm a little more lukewarm on on those applications. So that that's that's one

applications. So that that's that's one thing sort of in the sports sector. Um

media entertainment actually is really interesting. So you know World Ventures

interesting. So you know World Ventures we do a lot of work not just in the US but internationally as well and um I just spent um a week in in India um and it was it was awesome. And I think India as a market maybe a little bit less

developed on the sports side but very developed on the media and entertainment side. You know Bollywood has been like a

side. You know Bollywood has been like a massive industry there. Um and the way that I think users are engaging with content in India has like changed quite a bit. Um and so it's gone from these

a bit. Um and so it's gone from these like you know very long Bollywood movies. I grew up watching Bollywood

movies. I grew up watching Bollywood films they can be you know 3 to four hours sometimes. Now that's being you

hours sometimes. Now that's being you know that's completely shifting into a lot more short form content. So you're

seeing YouTube really taking off there.

you're seeing these like short form micro drama apps um that are doing really really well. Um and so I think globally that trend is happening you know a move away from long form entertainment into short and medium form

uh content. So I think that's really

uh content. So I think that's really interesting. Um and then on the consumer

interesting. Um and then on the consumer side um I think you know there's a a ton of things that we're covering there. One

thing uh that my colleagues Aaron and Brian recently went deep on is the longevity space. Um, and

longevity space. Um, and >> you know, I think just the way the amount of money that people are spending on their health and wellness, whether it's wearables, whether it's DEXA scans,

whether it's like at home blood tests.

Um, I I think it's really interesting.

Um, I think right now it's a little bit more limited in terms of the the types of people that are spending money on this. It's it's it's a small portion of

this. It's it's it's a small portion of the population. Um, but we think at

the population. Um, but we think at World Ventures that that's going to just continue to grow, right? And then we think if you can create a closed loop where not only are you doing some of

these testing uh things like blood tests and and at home care, but you're you know building community around these things, maybe you're tracking things through your wearables, maybe you you have sort of an in-person experience.

Like if you can create like a full flywheel um around your consumer health experience and and around your longevity experience, we think that's really interesting. Um

interesting. Um >> is anybody doing that?

Uh yeah, so uh we we're looking at a couple investments in the space. Nothing

that we can announce yet, but um there there are some really awesome entrepreneurs that are that are building in this category. Um,

yeah, it's it's one of those things where I think there's a lot of money flowing into the ecosystem. And I think we have a very strong point of view that you need to like have the physical and the the digital elements sort of

converge >> because if you just have the digital, >> you're not going to get that same level of engagement and retentiveness.

>> Um, and if you just have that physical, you're not going to get that same level of scale, right? And so, you need to have both. And

have both. And >> it's really hard to do, by the way. Um,

and but there there's a couple things that hopefully we'll be able to announce in in the near future that I think you'll find pretty interesting.

>> That makes sense to me. We had a investment that was crushing it. Um,

really nailing a, you know, physical wellness regiment.

>> Um, and then it just became a really competitive market. Yeah.

competitive market. Yeah.

>> Um, and unfortunately did not scale to the way that we thought it was going to.

the thing that they were rushing to do was create a cohesive closed loop with a digital system. Yeah.

And um >> yeah, it's it's it's interesting that you point that out. Yeah.

>> Which by the way, like taking off my investor hat for a second and just like on the human side, >> I think like in person like we've as a society become very digitally focused.

AI has made that even you know like 10 times more, right? like now even if you call like a customer service representative that might be an AI voice on the other side of it right so you're losing these like small human

interactions and I think as a firm and and I definitely you know I don't want to speak for everyone at the firm but but myself personally I think like there will be a premium on in life experiences totally >> um you you see that in health and

wellness I think you'll see that in sports which is why I'm so b so bullish on the sports industry um overall but I think like tech is great I mean obviously we're tech investors we love

we love scale and we love backing like software businesses. Um, but I think

software businesses. Um, but I think like fundamentally as humans we need that like in person connection. And so I mean going back to this conversation around college sports like that's what I love about college sports, right? Is

like it is a built-in community. Yeah.

>> Um, and it's the fact that like >> if you and I were just meeting and you knew that I went to USC and I knew that you went to Duke, >> we could have a conversation like we we like you know

>> fabric of America. Totally. We we we got >> we need that. We need that. Um uh and without it I feel like you know Yeah.

Like what are we doing?

>> Yeah, we'll save it. We'll definitely

save it. There's no way. Um this is by the way it >> Yeah, I think we can wrap it up. Um

dude, I really appreciate you coming.

>> Thanks for having me, man.

>> Um you came prepared. Everything you

said was enlightening. Um really

appreciate you making time to get over here to Slam headquarters in LIC. Thanks

for having me.