YellowBelly Presents...Dame Arlene Phillips

Hey up. I'm Joe Law and this is Yellow Belly presents the visual podcast where we invite industry leaders to share the stories, strategies, and secrets behind

their creative success. Today we are lucky enough to be joined by Dame Arleene Phillips, a legendary choreographer and director whose influence spans decades. From

revolutionizing jazz in the UK to choreographing for music legends like Freddy Mercury, Elton John and Whitney Houston, her impact on the industry is immeasurable. She shaped some of the

immeasurable. She shaped some of the biggest musicals from Starlight Express to Greece, dazzled audiences with her work on film and television with an Olivier award, a Damehood, and a career

that continues to inspire. We are

honored to have her here. Um, we'd like to start, if I may, with um your inspirations in life, your creative inspirations. got a few questions that

inspirations. got a few questions that we ask all of our guests and that is um could you share with us a a song, a film and a piece of live performance that's

inspired you in your life in your career? Yeah. Um the song that inspired

career? Yeah. Um the song that inspired me was Smoke Gets in Your Eyes because my mom used to sing it to me. My mom

died when I was 15. So she's very special. But the way she sang that song,

special. But the way she sang that song, she made the words come to life. The way

I listened to it from actually being quite young.

Um the the musical that changed my life and still today is my all-time favorite musical is Westside Story. I'm

absolutely passionate about it. And

prying to prior to seeing that movie, I wanted to be a ballerina. After that, it was all go jazz all the way. Jazz all

the way. I'm going to say the films, if that's allowed. Yeah. Of Charlie

that's allowed. Yeah. Of Charlie

Chaplain. Wow.

because that was something I was taken to see at our local cinema and we rarely went out anywhere and my dad loved

Charlie Chaplain. So it's any film of

Charlie Chaplain. So it's any film of Charlie Chaplan um resonated with me. We think of Charlie Chaplan as an actor, but the way

he moved his body to make people laugh, to make people think and and cry and he moved like a dancer, didn't he? Yes, he

certainly did. He was so physical that he he started in black and white movies and uh absolutely in silent films. And

yet he could make you cry. He could make you laugh. The way he used his body was

you laugh. The way he used his body was so extraordinary. And I know we all

so extraordinary. And I know we all think of the little shuffle forward with the cane, but he was so much more than that. You mentioned there the song um

that. You mentioned there the song um Smell Gets in Your Eyes that was sung um by your mom and your mom, you said, sadly passed away when you were 15. Um,

I've uh heard you speak really openly about it and so courageously and touching and uh I lost my dad a bit

older uh so about 26 and when you were saying uh the song Smoke Gets in Your Eyes because that's what your mom used to sing. My dad had a voice like an

to sing. My dad had a voice like an angle grinder. So I don't think he'd I

angle grinder. So I don't think he'd I don't think he'd ever sing. But um if someone were to ask me the same question, it would probably be something like Living on a Prayer by John Bonjovi

because it immediately brings me back to the back of his Ford Mondo estate and he'd like oh it would come on the radio or on his he'd have it the CD in his

glove compartment and we just crank it up. Whoa, we're halfway there. Um, what

up. Whoa, we're halfway there. Um, what

whenever we think of people we love in our lives, it I immediately go back to singing a song with my dad, watching cowboy films with my granddad. What is

it about the arts that's um so emotional and so meaningful to us

all? Um to us all actually is is not

all? Um to us all actually is is not necessarily available to all. You have

to have parents who gift that to you. Gift what it is to listen. That's why you remember those

listen. That's why you remember those things. And that's why the arts,

things. And that's why the arts, movement, music should be available in every school from the day kids go to

school to the day they leave at 18. And

when was the your first memory of falling in love with dance? that first

moment that you knew this is me. I think

that was um I went to dance classes when I was very young with a very strict teacher who was teaching step together step hop

and I remember I must have been about two and a half and her shouting across the room and I thought I thought I'm not coming back and something inside me w

went you've got to join in because if you don't you'll never have dance in your life. And it was that moment standing on

life. And it was that moment standing on the bar in my green ballet shoes, which I was really embarrassed about, but move

starting to move. Yeah. And that was for me something I knew I was going to do.

No matter what the odds are, no matter what happened in my life, I was going to dance because dance made me wanted to

live a life. Wow. What are your first um memories of coming to London to try and make it as a as a dancer, a performer? I always thought, you know,

performer? I always thought, you know, the streets of London were paved in gold. That was my that was my

gold. That was my that was my imagination. When I got there, the

imagination. When I got there, the reality was very different. I had come just for a week. I was teaching in Manchester um because I thought that was

the only career. I dreamed of going to a school in London, but it wasn't going to happen. So, I taught in Manchester, and

happen. So, I taught in Manchester, and then the head of the of the school I was at said, "There's a place in London called the dance center that's just opened on Floral Street, and you can

take any class of any style. I want you to go for a week in the holidays, and when you come back, I want you to bring

all of this new style of dance to the school." Off I go to London, staying at

school." Off I go to London, staying at the YW.CA, which was then on just off

the YW.CA, which was then on just off Tottenham Court Road. And it was tiny little room in a host hostel. But my

goodness, it was like, wow. Every day I went to the dance center. Mh. And on the final day, I went into a class with a teacher called Molly Mallaloy, who did

American jazz, but lyrical American jazz, a cross between contemporary classical and jazz. I fell in love with it. And it was Friday night. I was going

it. And it was Friday night. I was going home the next day and everybody was sitting sort of around a Kona coffee pot

and I sat on the bench and Molly was there and she started talking to everyone and she asked me what I was doing here. I said, "Well, I'm here to

doing here. I said, "Well, I'm here to take classes and I have to say I fell in love with your class. It's like my dream. I didn't know this dance style

dream. I didn't know this dance style existed." and she said, "Well, that it

existed." and she said, "Well, that it it was incredible because you just took to it more than any student that's been

here." Wow. Because I do American jazz

here." Wow. Because I do American jazz Luigi style. And um she said, "Oh my

Luigi style. And um she said, "Oh my god, I'd love to give you a scholarship." And I said, "I can't. Um

scholarship." And I said, "I can't. Um

I've got to go back." And she said, "Well, do you have to go back?" I said, "Yeah, I've got nowhere to live and nothing to live off. I have to go back."

and she said, "I I know someone that's looking for someone to live in, take care of their child, and and you could I will

give you a scholarship so you could be in London if you wanted." And on that moment, I decided I was never going home again because if I went home, I'd never

come back. And I went, "Really?" She

come back. And I went, "Really?" She

said, "Yes, yeah, I'll take you to meet um Ridley Scott, who's looking for someone to help with his kid and help clean the house." And I was like, "Okay,

Ridley Scott." Yeah, I've heard that

Ridley Scott." Yeah, I've heard that name.

Um, and that's what I did. And I stayed in London. and Ridley who had a uh TV

in London. and Ridley who had a uh TV company making commercials one day asked me to choreograph a commercial a lion's made ice cream commercial. I've spoken

about it often but it was a revelation.

a farmer, a a two guy cow and Miriam Margalles as a milkmaid and I had to teach them, you know, little little steps and it was all

milky kind of on the farm stuff and it was a success and there I was planted in London. Just to rewind slightly. So that

London. Just to rewind slightly. So that

first moment you went to a jazz class, what was it about seeing jazz, taking a jazz class for the first time that you

fell in love with so much? I can't even describe. It was it was a way of moving

describe. It was it was a way of moving that I hadn't seen before. I didn't know Luigi's style of of jazz. If I I did

think that jazz was jazz hands. Um which

I love. Um, I loved Westside Story because that was jazz, but it's jazz that spoke to you in a way I'd never

seen before. But Molly's connection with

seen before. But Molly's connection with the movement, with the way you breathe, with with the way that you use every

little particle of your body. Yeah. um

was was there in the way Molly uh expressed it and she had been a classical dancer herself um at New York City Ballet and she had she had the way

of moving of a classical dancer but turning it into a very contemporary feel. Yeah. And when I I when I met

feel. Yeah. And when I I when I met Molly, I knew a that we would be lifelong friends, b that she mentored me

so beautifully, but it also had given me the way forward to be bold and daring.

And because I knew how to teach, the one thing I could do was teach classes.

Yeah. So I then went on to teach a modern American jazz class, which I

realized everything on TV was very poppy smiley uh, surface. And I wanted to do something

surface. And I wanted to do something that brought what was going on in the streets in London. Oh my god. late 60s,

early 70s, vibrant, sexy styles were changing. And so I got the best students from my class and said, "I'm going to start a group. I'm

going to call it hot gossip because I want everybody to talk about it." Not

having a clue what I was really going to do. And we work with my best students

do. And we work with my best students who are very diverse.

And I put together this little show and I thought the world was going to love us. No way. No way. Every director I

us. No way. No way. Every director I brought to see my group went, "Oh, no.

No. Too sexy for TV. You can't put this on television." And it was rejection,

on television." And it was rejection, rejection, rejection. Wow. And we worked

rejection, rejection. Wow. And we worked at a club called Monkris on German Street. One night a week. And that club

Street. One night a week. And that club was like the hub of artists, of models, of fashion, of pop stars. Swinging

London. Swinging London. All there on a tiny floor. I mean, not even as big as

tiny floor. I mean, not even as big as this studio. I took nine of my best

this studio. I took nine of my best dancers. Got

dancers. Got um clothing from every kind of new new place that opened. Most of it was drag

queen, leather and um different kinds of sexy clothing. And

off I went with this group and they were not loved. But there was one day that

not loved. But there was one day that turned around my life and it

was it was a story, right? There was a magazine called Ritz magazine that very popular at the time and a photographer who saw us rehearsing in the dance

center asked if she could take a photograph. So I got them all in their

photograph. So I got them all in their outfits photograph massive photograph in Ritz magazine and that magazine was seen

by a director called David Mallet who went on to have I mean just a massive

career in music videos in um long form big big um shoots from all the famous

bands in the world And he said to his PA, "I'm about to do the Kenny Everett video show. Get me Arlene Phillips. Get

video show. Get me Arlene Phillips. Get

me hot gossip. Doesn't matter what it takes. Find them."

takes. Find them."

And that's what happened. They found me, asked me to put hot gossip on television, and we were what people think was an overnight success. It was

not. We had three years of struggles and the world suddenly woke up to hot gossip. Television woke up to hot

gossip. Nothing like it had been on TV

gossip. Nothing like it had been on TV before. And they became an overnight

before. And they became an overnight sensation. As did I because I had called

sensation. As did I because I had called the group Arlene Phillips Hot Gossip.

Yeah. Not actually

intentionally. Um and a woman called Mary White House objected to us.

Immediately she saw these sexy clothes early in uh the evening on a Monday night and went to the houses of parliament to campaign against this. We

made front page of every single newspaper and my career happened like that overnight. What's the old phrase?

that overnight. What's the old phrase?

It takes 10 years to become an overnight success. as a classic

success. as a classic story of that. Yeah. Um so that first moment when you have gone from being a

dancer, a dance student, a teacher and you first start to choreograph, if there's anyone watching or listening to this that is thinking about going into choreography for the first time, how do

you start? What do you do? It's really

you start? What do you do? It's really

hard to become a choreographer. Yeah.

And mine happened by chance. So firstly,

if you want to be a choreographer, remember that even if it's a kitchen door opens, go through it. Yeah. Take

whatever you can to forward what you want to do. The other thing is passion and desire. Passion and desire has to

and desire. Passion and desire has to come with a lot of hard work and also a

lot of rejection. And in any role whatsoever in theater, in film, in television, being an actor, being a

dancer, if you can't face rejection, don't go there. Yeah. Because

you find yourself facing rejection all the time. So, you have to have like a

the time. So, you have to have like a steely stance to say, I'm going to do this. Yeah. As a choreographer, try if

this. Yeah. As a choreographer, try if you're going to do a show, if you're in the ensemble, look to try to be a dance

captain, look to take that step. Be

watch everything everybody does. Learn

everything everybody does. So, somebody

will suddenly go, "Hey, can anybody remember that thing we did? I think it was about, oh, I don't know, five hours ago, we did something. Who can remember it?" Be the one. Be the dancer that

it?" Be the one. Be the dancer that remembers it. Try to go from a dance

remembers it. Try to go from a dance captain to an assistant to an associate.

Constantly climb the ladders. Look to a choreographer. You can get in touch with

choreographer. You can get in touch with anybody these days. Yeah, you can message anyone. You can get in touch

message anyone. You can get in touch with them. You can target your work for

with them. You can target your work for people that might help. What you must remember is I am going to do this and I

am going to make sure I am seen, my voice is heard, and don't be afraid to target choreographers that you're going to succeed no matter

what. No one's going to get in your way.

what. No one's going to get in your way.

No amount of rejection. This is going to happen because I'm going to do it and I love it and this is who I am and what I do. Absolutely. which is completely your

do. Absolutely. which is completely your spirit and your energy and everything that you embody. Um your work ethic is

legendary. Um you have worked and worked

legendary. Um you have worked and worked and worked and grafted and every career um definitely takes a certain amount of luck, but I feel like you're being a

little bit self-deprecating when you say that um your career is entirely down to luck. I I seem to think that with your

luck. I I seem to think that with your drive and passion and hard work that you you'd have you'd have been exactly where

you are now regardless. Yeah, I think yes, I do. But I think there are twists and turns. You may not recognize

and turns. You may not recognize they're the step you need to take, but you can actually take take those steps and

really think about them. the time when I was choreo choreographing there were not a lot of female choreographers. Yeah. So

obviously you know that was a fight but also the opportunity to take whatever it is in

dance you can like I was lucky because I was working with David Mallet um at the birth of MTV. Now he worked

with a company, a very small company at the time making music videos. So I was on the scene, well that his company made the very first music video ever. But

then I was on that scene and so I was night and day making one music video to the next to the next to next. Artha

Franklin one day, Rod Stewart the next.

Uh, it was just it was crazy for and as you say Whitney, Elton, Freddy Mercury, Queen, the group, it just was on and off

a plane, Diana Ross. I lived my life on an airplane.

But you have to take those opportunities. Yeah. and musical theater

opportunities. Yeah. and musical theater came along because I was making um a film called Can't Stop the Music in 1979 where they asked me to learn to

roller skate and I was pregnant with my first daughter and so the producers hadn't realized I hadn't been insured to be on roller skates. And one day he

walked in and um and said, "Get that girl off these skates. Get her off these skates. Didn't anyone remember to ensure

skates. Didn't anyone remember to ensure her?" Um, and so I, Andrew Lord Weber

her?" Um, and so I, Andrew Lord Weber was a big fan of Hot Gossip and we had met through that and he called me up

um just after um I told him the story of this roller skating mad woman in 1977 pregnant and I was with my little

baby at the time and then in 1983 he called me up and said I'm going to do a show on roller skates. Will you

choreograph it? You know, completely from one story. And who even remembers?

Yeah. From 1979 to 1983, I was astonished he'd remembered I roller skated. And Starlight Express opened my

skated. And Starlight Express opened my world to musical theater. So, I think for everyone, there's ups, there's

downs, but you've got to be there with your eyes open, listening, and trying to find that moment you can step in and

take over. That's so beautifully

take over. That's so beautifully articulated. I don't think we think

articulated. I don't think we think about that so often. How many doors will be open to you if you push and try? But

you've got to recognize that doors are being opened because if you overlook them somehow, if you don't see them, if you don't fully recognize that a door's

been open for you and then in turn go for it, heart and soul. Yes. And you

never know when something can take you to the path that you desire. I was

watching a contemporary dance competition once and it was run by Matthew Bourne and he award he awarded the winner an opportunity to work with

his company and there was a very young um dancer um who won called James Cousins. And that evening um he came up

Cousins. And that evening um he came up to me and we spoke and I said how wonderful his little piece of work was.

um very exciting. He said, "Yes, I um I've always wanted to do musical theater, you know, but you know, for now it's so exciting to meet you." Then that

was our first connection. Then I saw a little post and it said, "Can anybody help getting my company to Edinburgh?

We've been invited to Edinburgh Festival and we've got accommodation, but we need transportation." Mhm. And it was just

transportation." Mhm. And it was just this little thing and I went, "Oh, that's James Cousins." And I got in touch and said, "What do you need?" It

wasn't really that much money to get them there. Yeah. Yeah. And that was the

them there. Yeah. Yeah. And that was the end of that. Then when he got back, he said to me, um, back from Edinburgh, we

had a wonderful time. I'm going to I think I'm going to do Matthew Bourne's company, but I'm still going to keep my company running. But if I if I ever

company running. But if I if I ever could find a chance um because I'm free to shadow you, would you let me up? And

I said, James, the only thing I've got right now is um a workshop of Starlight, you know, and it's in Germany. Yeah. And

he went, "Oh." I said, "Look, I will help you, you know, do you need some fairs or accommodation?" She said, "No, no, no. I can get the air um I can get

no, no. I can get the air um I can get the airplane. I can get the flight." I

the airplane. I can get the flight." I

said, "Okay, I'll find somewhere for you to stay and come for a week." And he came, shadowed me for a week. Then I was offered, we got back um to do an

immersive production of M Miss Summer Night's Dream. And I asked if I could

Night's Dream. And I asked if I could have an assistant and I went, I wonder if James would be interested in something like this. Well, we worked together on Nick Heightner's immersive

production of Might's Dream with Gwendelyn Christie. And then from then

Gwendelyn Christie. And then from then on he came my assistant, he became my associate. He then went and we together

associate. He then went and we together did Guys and Dolls and we still work together and we've got more things coming up. And that was just someone

coming up. And that was just someone taking a chance on talking to a to a choreographer, following it up by can I

come in just shadow you and you know we we have been I would say friends and artists working together

ever since. And um in case people didn't

ever since. And um in case people didn't know anyone watching or listening you won the Olivier together last year for Guys and Dolls. Yes, we did. So yeah,

during the the speech, your acceptance speech um James gave such a lovely show of emotion towards you and he he called you his

mentor. It says a lot about you that um

mentor. It says a lot about you that um you've done incredible things in your career. you've risen to the top of the

career. you've risen to the top of the industry of choreography and you've remembered that it's important to help others to get where you are as well because it's I imagine it's very easy to

forget that. Um, yeah, you can just go

forget that. Um, yeah, you can just go along without thinking about it. But I

appreciate all my assistants and associates and I've been very lucky because they they will come back again

and again and whatever the title is constantly moving up because I want to give that um to them. Yeah. You because

I want to promote their careers. Um, and

I have such a good working relationship and I'm very lucky that they're always there. And that's such a brilliant bit

there. And that's such a brilliant bit of advice from you telling us about James Cousins's story. Sometimes doors

get opened for you, but sometimes you've got to open them for yourself. Oh. Um,

he reached out to you and asked you, Sometimes you've got to be a bit brave, haven't you? And and go, I'm going to

haven't you? And and go, I'm going to give this a shot. Um, what's co-c choreography like for people who perhaps haven't experienced it yet? Can it be a

clash of wills sometimes or can it be two different artistic voices that come together to make something even more beautiful than any one choreographer

could do? Yeah. Individually. It's very

could do? Yeah. Individually. It's very

interesting. You have to really know and trust the person you're working with.

Yeah. So that you can give and you can listen. Yeah. Yeah, that that there

listen. Yeah. Yeah, that that there there are no barriers. You have you and and we we spend a lot of time exploring

what it's going to be. I'm very much guided by music, lyrics, storytelling.

Yeah. And how do you express those? Um

uh often it's a piece of music that you don't particularly like and that's that's harder. If if if you love the

that's harder. If if if you love the music, it's telling you what to do. You

are physically sort of responding to it.

If it's a song you don't like, you have to kind of crank up and and think about what you're going to do. And it's good to be able to share those moments.

And it doesn't matter how long you've been choreographing. Um there is there is

choreographing. Um there is there is always a place to listen. I've directed

and choreographed, but I love working with directors and actually listening to directors. And one of the most

directors. And one of the most extraordinary and popular things was in Guys and Dolls was sit down, you're rocking the boat. Oh my god. And partly

because Cedric Neil, our, you know, very first Nicely nicely, he was brought up as a gospel singer. He was singing in church. He then went on to study opera

church. He then went on to study opera and by chance he was offered a role in musical theater. So he has all of these

musical theater. So he has all of these things and I found sit down you're rocking the boat one of the most

extraordinary experiences of my life and from sitting in a theater to be taken somewhere where your body is goosebumps

everywhere and you feel like your spirit has been lifted. You feel like you're in another place. it's elevated and and

another place. it's elevated and and listening and working with music is so important and therefore when you're

working with an associate with a co-c choreographer your response to the music um and when it comes together but Nick

heer after seeing what was created for sit down you're rocking the boat actually had some chairs but a lot dance in between the aisles and then Nick

looked at it and said everyone has to have a chair. So that meant I had thought that the non-dancers would be sitting on their chairs singing away and

the dancers would be doing some dance.

Everybody in a chair doing the same thing at the same time was Nick's instructions. And I remember going back

instructions. And I remember going back and working like at first like I've created this great choreography. They're

doing this and they're doing this and then we need some room.

No. And back in that room, reworking it, finding and using the limitations. Yeah.

And I remember the moment when I went, we have four sides. And that point when everyone lifted the chairs and turned them around and everyone lifted the

chairs so you were actually facing all four sides for part of the show but still being able to see over who was up on a chair and down. But that was a that

was the most joyous thing. And I had with me at that time not just James but our dance captains um Charlotte and

Dale. And it was just like a revelation

Dale. And it was just like a revelation as we discovered what we could do. And

Nick was right. Yeah. Everybody needed a chair. So you said just then that you

chair. So you said just then that you love working with directors. Can that be a complicated relationship? Uh

complicated process sometimes. Is it

always plain sailing? Do you always have to defer to a director? Sometimes you

have to fight for your artistic vision.

For those of us who haven't worked with a director in our careers yet, how do you navigate that? I think it's pick your battles.

Um, wise words because you know even you can tell by the program. Yeah. The

director is there. Yeah. The choreograph

you know um the director is the top of the tree. Yeah. And so you do

the tree. Yeah. And so you do um often have to listen because they are overseeing the story they want to tell

and you are creating the story you want to tell through movement. And sometimes

what you want this is I mean actually sit down your rocking the boat is a classic example of a choreographer want

wanting to see some very clever dance and it was the way we used it. But

ultimately at first you know thinking oh my go how we all how are we going to do it? some of these some of the actors who

it? some of these some of the actors who are integrated into the show. Um

certainly in crap used as ballet the way we use the actors um going from the most complex moments to the simplest

moments we were we were given the opportunity to make that happen with dance and non-dancers. Here everything

had to be accessible to pretty much non-dancers. Yeah. And yet to make it

non-dancers. Yeah. And yet to make it live, um, we managed. Yeah. Yeah. But it was

definitely Nick's choice, the director's choice, and I have thanked him in my heart every day since he said everyone

has to sit on a chair, which meant there was barely room to even move out at the sides. Yeah. I think listening to a

sides. Yeah. I think listening to a director is good advice, but when you're absolutely totally 100% fixed on

something, don't back down. Yeah. Yeah.

Don't be afraid to speak and give a reason. Pick your battles. I think

reason. Pick your battles. I think

that's um such wise sage advice. I think um you can't fight every single day, but if there's something you're particularly passionate

about in terms of the vision of the piece, then stick up for yourself because you you definitely do sometimes.

You mentioned there um um that in Guys and Dolls and I'm sure in other pieces you've worked on working with non-dancers.

Um how's that as a um choreographer? Is

it kind of easier? Is it harder? Is it

it's where it where it becomes hard is if at that moment a dancy dance is required. Yeah. It takes so much time.

required. Yeah. It takes so much time.

Um you can get everybody there. You know

I always say if you can walk you can dance. And very often particularly when

dance. And very often particularly when I'm doing music videos and working with stars who don't dance. Yeah. We just

walk up and down. Up and down. Up and

down. just get walking, just get moving, find your walk. If you find your walk, you'll find your dance. Um, but it is it

is harder and that's why it's important that even as a choreographer, you're all also a movement director. Yes. So make

make everyone look good and make your work cohesive so actors and dancers can join together and make it look like

everybody moves in the in exactly the way you want. You've spoken before um very openly and honestly about um your experience in ballet classes when you

were small and all the girls with the um traditionally slim long legs were putting the pink leotards at the front.

Oh yeah. And you and your friends were put at the back. I

mean that must have How was that? I

can't even imagine how difficult horrible that must have been to go through. Huh. It's awful actually when I

through. Huh. It's awful actually when I think back to it, you know, being the unwanted in the in the class, you know,

too plum, too, to that, you know, never never the perfection that the the ballet teacher wanted. And there's no way

teacher wanted. And there's no way you're ever going to be, you know, beautifully kind of slender ballerinas

with uh beautiful feet and and they kind of the body that just works so easily

are not are not in everybody's uh gift. Yeah. And uh it's interesting

uh gift. Yeah. And uh it's interesting though that my friend Olga and I who were at the back, we both became

teachers in that ballet school. Wow. We

both became teachers because we knew everything that we had to do. Yeah.

Because that was our knowledge. We may

not have all the beauty and the and the grace of the perfect ballerinas. Yeah.

But you certainly knew how to teach it and you certainly could analyze what the beautiful dancers needed and we both

became teachers in the same ballet school. So, you know, something came out

school. So, you know, something came out of it. But being there and persevering

of it. But being there and persevering through every dict insult that we got throughout the, you know, throughout the

period of time I was there from 8 until 22. I mean, including teaching, I stuck

22. I mean, including teaching, I stuck it out. She wasn't going to get me down.

it out. She wasn't going to get me down.

Um I um I think the higher the obstacles you've been forced to climb, the higher the ability you have to climb. And if

you get there, obviously it's easier said than done, but um like you say, limitations or we wouldn't see them as limitations now. We see everyone as

limitations now. We see everyone as having um different bodies and beauties many different things whereas I don't think it was seen that way perhaps in in

times gone past. Now often growth only happens through painful experience I find as annoying as that can be and difficult as it can be to go through.

Yeah. Um but you've come through the other side of that like you said with because you were forced to attain a greater knowledge of dance. You and your

friend Olga became teachers because you didn't have it all given to you.

Absolutely. No, it was it was fight for every step. And again, both of us came

every step. And again, both of us came from backgrounds where parents were struggling to keep us in the school. Is

it easier now for dancers, for performers from working-class backgrounds like yourself, or is it harder? Has anything improved in in your

harder? Has anything improved in in your time or is it still We're really going backwards because there was a time when dance became a subject in school that

everybody could attend. Yeah. Now again,

it's tough. It's it's still as tough.

It's tough to get money. It's not easy.

We're blessed in a sense with technology. I think in some senses it

technology. I think in some senses it might be easier to make your own work.

So although most of the obstacles it sounds like haven't been removed, I don't think things sound much easier at all for um uh other little Arans out

there right now who um don't have much money for dance classes and and want to make it in that world. But what's a bit nicer now hopefully um I think a film

that um won the palm door at K and it was entirely filmed on an iPhone. Uh,

you could do hot gossip on your phone now or the modern equivalent of hot gossip. You can get some pals together

gossip. You can get some pals together from your dance class and choreograph them and put it out there on YouTube and it could get a million views or Tik Tok

or uh hopefully it's easier for that drive, that inward passion and desire to express itself. you're not having to

express itself. you're not having to hire expensive film equipment and dance studios and um so hopefully dance and

the arts are a bit more meritocratic in that way. Oh, I I think that you know

that way. Oh, I I think that you know the world of dance has been exposed through Tik Tok. Yeah. I mean without

without fail um there are opportunities to do your work to target people with

your work. It definitely definitely um

your work. It definitely definitely um opens a a huge world. The only problem is there's millions doing it. Yeah. And

how do you get your work up there? What

do you do that makes a difference? And

and people do. I mean, definitely look at all the influencers that just do something crazy, wacky, different, but

bingo, they're they're there. They're

there for you to see and they are just gaining and gaining and gaining and growing. Um, when you're choreographing

growing. Um, when you're choreographing for screen as opposed to stage, what are the different considerations as a choreographer? Do

you is it exactly the same or is it two different styles you have to have in mind? Um, as a choreographer, I don't

mind? Um, as a choreographer, I don't think the difference between TV and stage is to do with style. Yeah. It's

it's how your work is exposed. So on

stage you have you're filling the stage or you're telling a story that the audience can relate to because of what you're doing physically. On television,

you have to build those camera shots.

It's what you want to tell the audience, but you have to make sure constantly that camera is helping to tell your story. Yeah. So sometimes um

story. Yeah. So sometimes um particularly you know with music videos or film you're shooting in tiny little pieces

um and everyone has to flow into it and flow out of it. Um on stage you can do a number that's five minutes long and

everybody will love it. It will build and build and build. To do that five minutes on television could take hours.

hours and hours and days and days. I

imagine sometimes and days and days. Um

I was watching some of your music videos and I definitely saw an Arlene Phillips visual language. the way you play with

visual language. the way you play with perspective um in the Whitney Houston video and um I'm still standing Elton John and there's moments where Elton

John's in the foreground where it could be an extreme close-up on his hand clicking in time to the music or his face and um or even uh a shot from like the knees down with his legs and then

the dancers in the background. But you

could definitely see exactly what you've just beautifully described there. Um to

try and keep the camera, keep the screen in mind, try and lead the director around the shots that you want and how you want your your dance, your vision to be portrayed on on the screen. I was

very lucky because when I was making music videos, I work with uh three directors, David Mallet, Russell M, and

Brian Grant, all in the same company. So

together we would work out what we were going to do. Yeah. before. I mean,

obviously sometimes we get to the space and it it it didn't work out, but um a lot of it was plotted before um

particularly like with Freddy Mercury who wanted to know everything that was happening throughout that music video.

Unlike Elton John said, "I'll turn up, tell me what to do." Freddy was involved. And when I made uh a music

involved. And when I made uh a music video um uh it was Freddy Not with Queen I was born to love you. Yes. We had 360

dancers on Canary War before one brick had gone up on Canary Warf as we know it today. It was a just a a bomb. Um Yeah.

today. It was a just a a bomb. Um Yeah.

Absolutely. And you know today you'd have one girl and you'd multiply them by 360. But there we have 360 dancers. I

360. But there we have 360 dancers. I

had a great big megaphone. But all of the shops we had

megaphone. But all of the shops we had worked out before, you know, we were there like at 5:00 a.m. in the morning, you know, scouting the location and

working out all of the camera shots.

Yeah. Um ready. So um again music videos were mostly or or you know usually one day and those

days were very long. Yeah. You know go through till midnight. So if you didn't plot everything you c you just can't um you can't really get what you need to

get done. Yeah. Before either the star

get done. Yeah. Before either the star is flying off. I mean, what Elton John I'm still standing was an example of how as a choreographer you have to be on

your toes. We had planned um that Elton

your toes. We had planned um that Elton John the music video he was going to start up in the mountains in the south

of France and drive down the um the mountains in an open top car. And when

he gets to the prominard, they were going to put a a sugar glass screen and Elton was going to burst through it into

where you could see the sea, the sand.

Um when we actually arrived in the south of France, um it was all changed.

They um police didn't think it was safe to to drive down that mountain road and break through the sugar glass. So we

were like, "What are we going to do?" I

had a friend who opened a dance school in the south of France. So I called her up and said, "Have you got any dancers?

You know, can you get They've got to be over I think it was over 16 at the time.

Over 16." And she said, "Yeah, I've got loads amazing dancers." Um and um so I said, "Okay, can you tell them to come

and we're going just bring bikinis, shorts, you know, summery costumes and we're all going to meet at the prominard at such a such time." She said, "I'll

round up my best dancers." Um we have brought over um uh Bruno because Bruno was going to sit in the back of the car.

and Antonio was going to sit in the back of the car and he at the time was teaching dance classes for me and we've been friends for years. So that was who we

had. Terrifying. And then um Russell

had. Terrifying. And then um Russell McKay who was directing said, "We're going to body paint everybody. Let's get

body paints out." There's some beautiful body paint in that video. I

choreographed that on the spot with dancers I didn't know from Elton walking down you know the prominard in Nice and all the dancers behind him going into

the negresco because Elton can get anything he wanted finding the staircase choreographing it everything on the beach it was instant choreography with

the dancers in their little whatever they had to wear and it was I mean talk

about alert. I was so on edge that day.

about alert. I was so on edge that day.

How fast could I teach them something that they could then film and shoot? And

that sounds like although it was a situation that was perhaps forced on you, it's a situation where this whole incredible iconic music video just

came out of you and rather than one of those times where you've been painstakingly considering every step for months. Yeah, there was no time. Even

months. Yeah, there was no time. Even

getting even Elton getting him to do his little click. Was there a sense because

little click. Was there a sense because music videos were brand new at the time?

Yeah. Completely new art form. Was there

a sense that you were doing something new and exciting and exploring a completely different medium? We knew and what we said was, "Oh, we're just making

it up." Yeah. Yeah. you know, we would

it up." Yeah. Yeah. you know, we would just sit down and go, "Well, this this idea would look good for this music video." Um, uh, yes, it was. And I

video." Um, uh, yes, it was. And I

remember sitting in, uh, Freddy had a beautiful house where the parties were held and then he had a flat where it was like a basement flat. That was where we worked and and going through what we're

going to do. He wanted to know of every music video I did with him what the idea was going to be. Um, and it's just so

lovely. But it is it is a time of my

lovely. But it is it is a time of my life when I think back and I I you know working with Artha Frank Artha Franklin

then going to Diana Ross I felt like I I worked with Whitney Houston, Tina Turner. I did all of the iconic uh

Turner. I did all of the iconic uh singers. Yeah. And it was it was just um

singers. Yeah. And it was it was just um it was just such a special time and so unique because you know we were we were

just making it up often on the spot.

Yeah. You know with Tina Turner private dancer we arrived at the Rivly Ballroom.

It had just been condemned because they found Asbestos and it looked like it had been condemned. It was it was ready to

been condemned. It was it was ready to close and we had that last day there making that music video. I was creating

it up um creating it on the day. We got

the dancers together doing little bits of choreography. Um beautiful dancers,

of choreography. Um beautiful dancers, wonderful dancers. And we were all given

wonderful dancers. And we were all given orange boxes to sit on. And when the shots were, you know, we were setting up shots, Tina would sit on her orange box

surrounded by the dancers, not just telling her life story, but asking them about their lives. Yeah. It and we went on till late in the night because Tina

was off the next day and we had to complete that music video. Um those

experiences I will never forget. I've

been so lucky that I could have these unbelievable, you know, uh, experiences.

Whitney, the um, How will I know was her first music video where she had to move or dance and I was quite shy about it, you know. Then when I went to New York a

you know. Then when I went to New York a bit later to do I Want to Dance with Somebody, there was Whitney, the star.

Yeah. Wow. But on that first one, uh, Yeah. It's such a it's such an

uh, Yeah. It's such a it's such an incredible life I have. Um Dame Arlene, we're coming towards the end of our pod today. Just wanted to say thank you so

today. Just wanted to say thank you so much for being with us. Um thanks for all the the wisdom and fun and joy

you've brought um to our listeners, to us, to um our podcast. So thank you very much. Uh, if we may, we're going to end

much. Uh, if we may, we're going to end on one final question, and that is, if you could choreograph anybody, alive or

dead, um, who would that be?

Wow.

Um, I have to say Michael Jackson.

Oh, what would you um do you have a vision for what that would be? Um, you

know what? Um, Michael Jackson came to see Starlight Express and loved it and wanted to play Rusty. He wanted to play Rusty in the

Rusty. He wanted to play Rusty in the theater or on a film. Somehow he just wanted to play Rusty. And Rusty in

Starlight Express is the most I think appealing of all all the characters. Um,

he's a train that has been overlooked and dismissed. So everything does Rusty

and dismissed. So everything does Rusty does is in many ways trying to

show I am somebody. I'm not nobody.

Yeah. So I think within the movement that I would give would be exploring how do you

come from being a nobody to a somebody through movement. Wow. And on that note

through movement. Wow. And on that note I'd like to say thank you so much for joining us today everyone. Dolene

Phillips. Thank you. Thank you.

Thanks so much for listening. We really

appreciate it. You don't have to, but if you fancied it, gives us a follow. Lots

of love and we'll see you on the next one. That was it, baby. That was it.

one. That was it, baby. That was it.

Loaded it.