You’re Allowed to Want to Be Rich | Vivian Tu, Your Rich BFF

When life gives you lemons, make lemonade. No. When life gives you

lemonade. No. When life gives you lemons, make sure you have sugar and water and a spoon available. I feel like if the market is down, like we need to text each other and be like, "It's

okay." We want to have a financial group

okay." We want to have a financial group chat be like, "Now is the time to buy or actually think about buying rather than like freaking out." I feel like guys probably have some sort of group chat that like are like, "Bye bye bye."

It's called Reddit.

She take my money when I'm in need. Like

literally when women are seen as gold diggers going after economic stability after a man who has money, whatever, we don't call the men potty diggers or

looks looks diggers. We don't call them those things. Let's be real. Every

those things. Let's be real. Every

decision you make in life is a transaction. Are you okay with the one

transaction. Are you okay with the one that you're making? We need to unbrainwash our gender, generally speaking, and say everything

that you want, you can have. I'm Sheree.

I'm Jean. I'm Vivian

and we're the Tiger Sisters.

We are your Wall Street and Silicon Valley big sisters and we're a top 10 business podcast bringing late night sister talk meets boardroom strategy.

Hi Tiger fam. We have such a special episode today. We're sitting next to

episode today. We're sitting next to someone who's basically the internet's BFF. That's right. It's Viven 2, also

BFF. That's right. It's Viven 2, also known as your rich BFF. Vivien started

her career on Wall Street, moved into media at BuzzFeed, and somehow combined the two of them to create one of the most influential financial platforms on the internet today. Today, we're talking

about how Vivian built your rich BFF into a financial media platform and the early lessons that helped her turn her financial education into a massive business. Welcome, Vivian, to Tiger

business. Welcome, Vivian, to Tiger Sisters podcast.

Thank you so much for having me. Okay,

Vivian, we're excited to get super tactical with all the insights from the rich BFF world. So, we've seen you say that in your adult lifetime, you'll probably see five to seven major

downturns, and that these moments are actually huge opportunities to build wealth, which is why rich people love them.

Are we in a recession now? And how do we build wealth during a recession?

Yeah. So, I I think we have to think about what people who have money and don't have money are actually doing during these economic downturns. I don't

know if you remember um but roughly March of 2020, we saw the stock market go and everybody

was selling. It was like trying to catch

was selling. It was like trying to catch a a falling knife and it was very scary for so many people. People saw their retirement accounts have. People saw,

you know, the savings that they had planned for their kid to go to college have. Like people were freaking out.

have. Like people were freaking out.

But if you had money, rich people thought, hm, this might be a really good time to scoop up investments that haven't seen these prices in years and

years and years.

So, they bought. They bought probably on the way down. They kept it kept going down. They kept buying. They kept

down. They kept buying. They kept

buying. They kept buying. And then it started to go up and they bought too and they bought again and they bought and bought and bought and by August, not

that much longer actually, we saw the market essentially rebound and since then we've actually seen for

the past couple years the S&P 500 has been one of the most insane returning indices. it's returned roughly 25% a

indices. it's returned roughly 25% a year and that is unheard of. I mean that is rivaling the returns of some private investments.

Um so I think when we talk about you know when life gives you lemons make lemonade.

No when life gives you lemons make sure you have sugar and water and a spoon available. And so for everybody

available. And so for everybody listening, when you're thinking about taking advantage of any sort of economic downturn, it's about having capital to deploy,

it's about making sure the rest of your financial picture is already in a like a safe holistic place. So your needs are being met. There's food on the table.

being met. There's food on the table.

You're not that worried about, you know, whether you're going to be able to keep your house or keep your rent, whatever.

But it's also about making sure that you're being smart with that allocation.

Mhm.

You know what else is going to go down when there's economic downturns? It's

also a really good time to buy designer goods on the secondary market.

But are those necessarily going to rebound the same way that the S&P 500 will? I don't know. It's also a really

will? I don't know. It's also a really good time to take advantage of travel deals.

Are those going to provide you as much value as an investment? I don't know.

That is up for you to decide. But being

prepared for these moments and being mindful of what your spending and investing looks like during these especially incredibly important five it's usually five to eight actually.

Interesting five to eight economic downturns you'll see throughout your life could be the difference between whether or not you're okay or very comfortable. Um, as for the

technical definition, for it to be a true recession, you have to see two quarters of down GDP growth. We're

actually not technically in a recession, but it does feel like a vibe session.

And it's felt like a vibe session for quite some time because it has been a K-shaped economy. Mhm.

K-shaped economy. Mhm.

While the people who have money, like we talked about just now, have continued to get richer and richer and richer, the rest of us, regular people, have really felt a squeeze in our wallets at the

grocery store, at the gas pump, in our rent, in everything that we need to spend on. And so, even though it may not

spend on. And so, even though it may not be a technical recession, a technical economic downturn, sure does feel like it for so many people.

Yeah. Mhm.

So, is now one of those good times to basically be ready and invest?

Here's the thing. It's never about trying to call the bottom.

It's about making those healthy choices throughout your life.

So, it is impossible for us to know whether we're at the bottom or if we're at the top.

If I knew, trust me, I would not be on this podcast. I'd already be retired and

this podcast. I'd already be retired and Bora Bora. You'd never hear from me

Bora Bora. You'd never hear from me again.

But the joke is the smartest guys on Wall Street don't know either.

And so if you're consistently investing a fixed dollar amount every single month, when prices are higher, you'll naturally buy fewer shares. When they're

lower, you'll naturally buy more. If you

see that there has been a major move, I think we all can generally appreciate what a major move looks like. If we're

seeing a major drop on the chart or a major rise, you can make some decisions about meaningfully buying more, taking a quick beat,

but that's all to say we don't know.

So, do I think you should be investing right now? Hell yeah.

right now? Hell yeah.

But I think you should be investing all the time.

Yeah. I think the thing that my biggest takeaway from this is that like ha having a cool head is so important especially when like I mean during the t co 2020 when the the market completely

tanked I think people were panicking even if they did have um money put to the side and they were going to be fine like the news outlets everyone on Instagram was like freaking out and so

it's don't be caught up in that wave it's by the way natural human psychology did you know that for most of us, if I

give you $100, the joy you feel is less than if I if you lose $100, like I stole it out of your wallet or something, like the feeling of loss is so much more

magnified than the feeling of a win.

And so when we see our portfolios drop, it's natural to feel a little bit of anxiety. And I, it's so funny as someone

anxiety. And I, it's so funny as someone who even provides this guidance to so many people. I'm like, "Hey, maybe don't

many people. I'm like, "Hey, maybe don't check your investment portfolio when the market's down. You're going to hurt your

market's down. You're going to hurt your own feelings."

own feelings." I checked my own portfolio the other day. Market was down. I was like, "Nah."

day. Market was down. I was like, "Nah."

And it was I was like, "Wow, that's a much smaller number than I was hoping to see." And you know what? I have to laugh

see." And you know what? I have to laugh because it's really just I have to take my own advice, stay the course, continue investing, and think of right, you know, think of those

moments as like a buying opportunity.

And you know what's so funny? This

podcast is going to come out and it's going to be a completely different environment than when we recorded it.

The market's going to be in a different place. Things headlines will be

place. Things headlines will be different. The geopolitical climate

different. The geopolitical climate might be different.

We don't know. But it's the triedand-true method.

Yeah. I feel like if the market is down, like we need to text each other and be like, "It's okay." We want to have a financial group chat be like, "Now is the time to buy." Or actually think about buying rather than like freaking out, you know? I feel like guys probably

have some sort of group chat that like are like bye bye bye.

It's called Reddit.

Yeah. Right.

Like now's the time to buy. I don't

know. I feel like we need one of those for for women.

Yeah. But it's almost more like emotional support group.

Yeah.

To not freak out.

Yeah.

And to do the thing that you like know in your head that you should do.

Exactly.

Okay. Vivian, one of the things you mentioned is that during a recession, different industries kind of go up and down. So, luxury and discretionary

down. So, luxury and discretionary spending often uh often drop and things like healthcare, energy, and consumer staples hold up better. Yeah.

So, for someone who's thinking about their career, not just their investments, how should people think about recession proofing their job or their industry?

Um, so I think it's pretty intuitive, right? Think about it. During a

right? Think about it. During a

recession, when the economy is not doing as well, when there are fewer dollars that are discretionary, able to be spent, people are naturally going to cut back on things that are not necessary,

but you're still going to need to get healthare. You're still going to need to

healthare. You're still going to need to be able to turn your lights on. So,

energy and utilities companies are going to be fine, but like, are you going to go out to the movie theaters much? Are

you going to go buy a new wardrobe? um

are you going to be getting that new back to school outfit for your kid in the same way that you would in you know better times? Probably not.

Yeah.

And so if you have a role that is applicable across verticals, across industries, so say you work in accounting, um you can account at a healthcare

company, you can do accounting at a media company, you can do accounting at a law firm, you can do accounting anywhere. Maybe you're in marketing. You

anywhere. Maybe you're in marketing. You

can do marketing for a tiny startup that, you know, pairs stylists with luxury buyers. You could also work at a

luxury buyers. You could also work at a major bank and do marketing. They all they all need marketers. They all need people.

marketers. They all need people.

Software engineer. You can software engineer at a big big mega tech company or you can be a software engineer for,

you know, a local media agency.

They need a website too. And so it's thinking about if you are looking for certain things out of your life, what is going to provide you that? In some

cases, if you're single, you're looking for rocket ship growth, maybe it is taking the more risky option.

You want more money, that might be the choice. But if you are the head of a

choice. But if you are the head of a household, if you have people who are relying on you for food, maybe you want to consider pivoting your career towards an industry that will naturally hold up

a little bit better during periods of economic boom. Maybe

the raises won't be as big.

Maybe there won't be as much fanfare or as much, you know, increased revenue, but it's consistent.

Yeah.

So, do you want consistency or do you want growth? So, I'm hearing you say,

want growth? So, I'm hearing you say, "Accountants rise up." Accountants rise up 1,00%. 1,000%.

up 1,00%. 1,000%.

Um, I really like this question because I think it's getting into how men versus women think about money.

So, something you recently said that stuck with us is that we need to unbrainwash women into realizing that it's actually okay to want to be rich.

Yeah.

And what are we doing about this?

Vivian, take my money when I'm in need. Like

literally, like I say those first few lines and you already know I'm I'm singing Gold Digger.

Like that phrase has become so disgustingly pervasive as a tool to keep women down. And it's so funny to me. And

women down. And it's so funny to me. And

when I say that, by the way, it's like when I say it to my husband, I'm like, I just think it's funny how and I'm about to like go off rip.

I don't think it's funny. I think I think it's strange that we do not talk about the other side of that transaction.

When women are seen as gold diggers going after economic stability after a man who has money, whatever, we don't call them men hottie diggers or looks

looks diggers or, you know, babe digger.

Like, we don't call them those things.

Let's be real. Every decision you make in life is a transaction.

Are you okay with the one that you're making? And for women, I think we should

making? And for women, I think we should be loud and proud about the fact that we want financial stability. Like I don't love the idea of relying on a man for

money. Not because I think you you'd get

money. Not because I think you you'd get called a gold digger, but because I feel like if somebody has the power to feed you, they have the power to starve you.

I am more comfortable knowing that at the end of the day, I'm going to decide how I eat. I'm going to do it for myself. But we should encourage women to

myself. But we should encourage women to want money. Even in a corporate setting,

want money. Even in a corporate setting, when you see a woman who is ambitious, which is a positive connotation word, she's often described as power- hungry,

which is a negative connotation word.

When she is assertive, positive connotation word. She's bossy.

Negative connotation word.

But you've never heard a man be described as bossy.

Never.

Only as a boss.

Literally never in my life.

Like literally not once. Why is that word reserved for us? Mhm.

It's so gendered.

It's disgusting.

Yeah.

But I think once we are comfortable as a populace wanting money, being unabashed about the fact that we deserve financial stability

and we're not doing this for the love of the game. Like none of us work for the

the game. Like none of us work for the for shits and giggles. I am here to make money.

I'm here to do my job and I'm going to do it well. I'm going to be the best at it. And that's why I get paid to do it.

it. And that's why I get paid to do it.

But like I'm not here for my health.

Mhm.

And so I would say we need to unbrainwash our gender generally speaking and say everything

that you want you can have and don't let anybody else tell you otherwise.

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sisters. One of the things we talk about most on Tiger Sisters is how women need to be financially independent. That's

like one of the pillars we talk about all the time. So, if someone's listening, they're like, "Okay, I'm down. I want to unbrainwash myself."

down. I want to unbrainwash myself."

Like, what should they do? Should they

just like listen to what you said like on on repeat like five times every day or It's two things, I think. It's having a conversation with yourself and having a conversation with your friends.

So, having a conversation with yourself, I remind myself every single day in the mirror when I wake up, I'm like, "Only good things happen to lucky girls like you."

you." Like every dollar you have made you have earned. No one gave it to you.

earned. No one gave it to you.

You are not overpaid. You are paid what is market. You deserve it.

is market. You deserve it.

I remind myself that I am the only person who can do what I do. I currently have the things that me

do. I currently have the things that me five years ago literally was dreaming about.

Yeah.

And that I don't owe anybody anything.

Yeah. Hell yeah.

I I'm so happy hearing you say this. I'm

like almost tearing up. I don't know.

I'm so happy for you. I'm so proud of you. Like I'm just

you. Like I'm just That is the feeling though I want us to have for other women because you sitting there and saying I'm proud of you

instead of I'm jealous of you tells me about where you are at. But I

think so many women have a hard time, and this gets into the second part of talking to your friends, have a hard time actually talking about their successes with other women because

your girlfriends will be there for you when you need a shoulder to cry on. It's

always nice to like have a fun story for the group chat, you know, but actually it's when you're winning Yeah. that it's really hard to talk to

Yeah. that it's really hard to talk to your friends because if you are in the wrong circle sharing your success sounds like bragging

and on top of that in many cases we have again brainwashed ourselves into thinking that there's only room enough at the top for one of us.

Yeah.

And I very much ascribed to that belief for a long time because it was true.

When I started my career as a trader on JP Morgan there was only one other woman on the desk. She was my manager. She was

16 years my senior and there was no other woman.

Like there was a 16-year gap between her and me and there were no other girls on the team.

Yeah.

Like what does that say?

Yeah.

Like there there was always only allowed to be one token girl and when one of the women was starting to get more senior then we'd have to hire one more. And

it's like wait we didn't have that rule about white guys.

Yeah.

We certainly there were 30 40 other white guys. So, like I think we have to

white guys. So, like I think we have to stop convincing ourselves that people that look like us need to fight over the crumb they're willing to give us. Just

cut me a bigger slice of the pie.

We need to take more. There need to be more women CEOs. There need to be more women in seuite positions. There need to be more women who own businesses, who own companies, who are founders, who are

getting VC funding, who are talking to each other about how much they make, what they're spending, what they're actually earning, taking home, what they're paying their employees. When we

finally have these conversations, by the way, it gives us all the power.

We ran into each other roughly a month ago. We were at Southby and we were at a

ago. We were at Southby and we were at a women's podcasting event and I was like, "You guys, the guys are talking about this in a secret group chat."

And I can't remember if it was one of you guys or somebody else came up to me and told me that one of the men at the event actually said, "Oh my god, how does she know about that group chat?"

Yes.

Like there was no someone told us that. Literally,

there is a actual group chat. I'm like,

I wasn't joking, guys. There is an actual group. It's probably a discord.

actual group. It's probably a discord.

Yeah.

But like it's so silly to me.

Yeah.

Because why am I trying to fight with you to be at the bottom of the pyramid when we can all just have our own pyramids?

Yeah. I mean, one thing we've said before and we still say all the time is like when we look at the, you know, top business charts or like top charts for podcasts and we're in the top 10, we're

like we're always one or maybe two of the women in the top 10. And we're like, it should be it should be all women.

Like that should be our goal.

I'm not looking for parody. I think top 10 should be all women. Like that is my goal for our industry and 100%.

I feel like I used to be afraid to say no. I'm not afraid.

no. I'm not afraid.

Like why should we be?

Yeah.

They we didn't have parody. We haven't

had parody. We don't have parity. No.

Never.

Why not flip the flip the scales?

It's Barbie's world. That's all I want.

That's right. That's all that's all I want to say.

And he's just Ken. He's just can I have a question that's like a little bit offscript which is you talked about you talked about sometimes in your friend groups there are people it seems

like who are not happy for your success or are not really celebrating you like when you're down they're like oh like I'm so sad like let let me commiserate with you but when things are going well

you just crickets crickets crickets crickets right I mean what's that about what's that about and also how do we deal with it because I think Gan and and I are over the last like year and a

half, we've transitioned from our corporate lives into a new um vertical, a new medium completely. And so I'm like, it's kind of weird that we're not

seeing the same support um that we had before um from some of our peers.

Yeah.

And do you feel bad about it or no?

Do I let Let me answer that question first. Do I feel bad about it? No.

first. Do I feel bad about it? No.

Because it doesn't matter who cheers for you. Did you cheer for yourself? I ask

you. Did you cheer for yourself? I ask

myself this all the time. I'm like, are you proud of the work that you're doing?

And if the answer at any point becomes no, I got to stop whatever it is.

Up until now, the answer's been yes. I'm

very proud of what I've done. But I

think I will be clear, I don't have any more of these frenemies in my group anymore because I just don't have time like that. Yeah.

that. Yeah.

I don't have time to be, you know, around people who are player hating.

Mhm.

Like people often times look at you and they see a mirror of the things that they have yet to accomplish or dreams

that they had to sacrifice or they see a reflection of the work they weren't willing to put in.

And because of that, they resent you for having put in the work. They resent you for maybe getting a lucky break. Because

let's be honest, all of our success is largely hard work. But some luck was involved. some good timing, some, you

involved. some good timing, some, you know, friendly mentor, somebody helped you. They are going to hate you for

you. They are going to hate you for doing something that they can't and that sucks. But I will say it helps you figure out who your real friends are really quickly.

Yeah.

I feel so lucky to quote a a be a song.

I got the same five friends with me.

It's been the same five friends since college. Like, you know, the same girls

college. Like, you know, the same girls that I was friends with getting drunk with in college are were the same people who were my bridesmaids at my wedding.

Mhm.

And I can count on them.

It's so funny. Sometimes when I go on like talk shows, um I don't even get texts from them. I'll get a text from like their mom and Judy will tell me that I I looked wonderful.

A and she'll text my friend and my friend's like, I didn't even know she did that, but like great. I love that.

Um and I think it's just that is like she's my daughter, too. But like

that tells me my friend has gone home and talked to her mom about how proud she was of me.

Yeah.

Like it mattered enough to her to share with her mom.

Yeah.

And so I think that's a representation of like truly wanting the best for your friends and feeling like a rising tide does lift all ships. And

you know if I can be kind of crass, I mean my friends have really benefited from the fact that I've made a good deal of money.

I'm pay I'm picking up dinners. I think

I'm starting to get to the point in my life where I'm starting I'm going to pick up vacations, but I'm not going to do that for just anybody and I'm certainly not going to do that for fake friends.

Hell yeah.

Well, also like what a joy it is that you're able to make that money and spend it on people you love.

So lucky. And like I was able to fly last minute to Vegas to spend a weekend with a girlfriend who was there for a work like a semi work thing like mullet travel work in the front, party in the

back. And it was a situation where like

back. And it was a situation where like no one else was able to make it and she was feeling really lonely and we were in a you know position where like I was like whatever.

Yeah.

There's no price tag on good memories and I went and we had the best time and we have stories from that weekend and being able to support my friends in unique ways

I think is really what what's the point?

That's the whole point.

You're a good friend.

I try.

Yeah.

I try. I'm um you know prepping the bridesmaid budget right now. Everybody I

know is getting married.

So you know how every year I have a New Year's resolution around finances. Oh, I

have one too for 2026. New year, new opportunity to get our money right.

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I saw one of your videos recently talking about how to gently turn down being a bridesmaid because those price tags really rack up when you're talking

about cost of flights now and then cost of tra like travel and food and accommodations and all that stuff. I

just don't get why you would want to be a bridesmaid at every single wedding.

Like, there are only a small handful of people that I would agree to be a bridesmaid for because I know how much it sucks.

Like, being a bridesmaid sucks. You

spend a bunch of money on a fugly dress that you're never going to be able to wear again, probably a fugly pair of shoes to match with it so you can all be in theme. you you know I I've had some

in theme. you you know I I've had some great friends by the way who have covered some of those costs and who cover glam the day of whatever but like in many cases the bride and groom don't cover that

and if I'm paying for all of that then I got to pay for the flight to wherever you're trying to get married because my friends are all scattered across the country and you know heaven forbid it's a destination wedding then they've got to pay for hotel they've you know what

all this stuff like that is thousands of dollars and that's just the wedding not to mention the engagement party, the bachelorette party, the bridal shower.

I didn't have an engagement party or bridal shower cuz I was like, "This is so overkill. I don't want to do this."

so overkill. I don't want to do this."

But like, it's expensive. And if someone is going to make that ask of me, I just ask myself, I'm like, would I be comfortable this person five grand?

And if the answer is no, I'm not coming or I'm not going to be a bridesmaid. At

least I'll come be a guest at your wedding. If it's like fun

wedding. If it's like fun and I like like you, I'll I'll send a gift. But it's roughly, you know, in

gift. But it's roughly, you know, in many cases a couple thousand dollars.

Yeah. Is there a good script that people can use to gently let down or, you know, I'm like, I can't be your bridesmaid for this one. Like, what

would you say? I know you're obsessed with me.

Yeah.

Don't start that way, actually.

So, I would I would do it this way.

Um, I would say something like, "Hey, Jean.

Absolutely love you. So happy for you.

Congratulations on getting engaged. I'm

really excited for your big day. I know

you mentioned you wanted to have a bachelorette party in Cabo. You were

going to have the engagement party in New York and you were going to have a destination wedding in Portugal.

It's going to be great.

Great situation.

Can't wait for you to come, Vivian.

Um, if I can be completely candid, I've got some big financial goals coming up.

Uh, and right now these are my financial constraints. my budget for all of this

constraints. my budget for all of this is XYZ whatever my budget might be and then I would say that said I don't want any of your special moments to be

limited by me let me know what I should prioritize and or I'm happy to take a step back and

support you in other ways so if you then come back and say hey it's actually not that deep to come to the engagement party it's mostly going to be family and my mom and dad are inviting a bunch of people you don't

have to from great, that saves me a flight. That saves me a hotel. Now I

flight. That saves me a hotel. Now I

have more budget for your bachelorette and your wedding. In some cases, I told friends, I was like, "Don't come to the bachelorette. I'd rather you just come

bachelorette. I'd rather you just come to the wedding."

Great. In another case, you could come back and say, "Totally understand. Like,

it's really important for me to like have you there for my bachelorette party. Can I help cover some of these

party. Can I help cover some of these costs?" That's something a bride can do

costs?" That's something a bride can do and it is something that I have offered to people.

I see. I see.

So, it it's a bit of a give and take.

You both have to be level-headed, reasonable people.

I want to be transparent, but Jean also has to be understanding and decide what is more valuable to her.

Yeah.

Or Jean can just be like, totally hear you, really understand. Um, if that is the case, I don't want to change my plans, but I would still love for you to attend the wedding as a guest.

Yeah. And have you standing up there with me? Like, don't worry about coming

with me? Like, don't worry about coming to anything.

Don't worry about coming to anything else. I want you to be there. These are

else. I want you to be there. These are

very mature conversations and also take a bit of prep work too as the bridesmaid. Like you have to know what

bridesmaid. Like you have to know what your budget is. You know, you have to know what you can and can't spend and like you can't just pull that number out of thin air. Like you have to it has to be rooted in you doing the work.

I think at the end of the day what we're forgetting is these conversations the underlying red thread isn't money. It's

do you love your friend? And I have given this script and shared it with so many people. And you know what happens?

many people. And you know what happens?

Some of the brides go full bridezilla and they're like, "How dare you? You

don't prioritize me." But it's like, "Girl, you never loved your friend."

Yeah.

You loved being a show pony. You loved

standing up there with the lights and the cameras all on you. You wanted this to be about you.

You never cared about your friend.

You never For my bachelorette party, I sent out a survey monkey. Is that like so lame, by the way? Like it's kind of cute. But I sent out a survey monkey

cute. But I sent out a survey monkey that was like, "Tell me your name. By

the way, this is an anonymous survey. It

will only be seen by me. Like the other bridesmaids, the maid of honor, the person planning. Nobody will see this.

person planning. Nobody will see this.

What weekends are you available?" So

that was really easy. People just check their calendar. How much would you like

their calendar. How much would you like to spend on your on the bachelorette party? What is your vibe? Are you trying

party? What is your vibe? Are you trying to party? Are you trying to chill? Are

to party? Are you trying to chill? Are

you trying to do a little bit of both?

What kind of setting would you like it to be in? So like major city. And I

picked like places that I'd wanted to go. So like Vegas. Did I want to go to a

go. So like Vegas. Did I want to go to a beach? So maybe like Miami. We could do

beach? So maybe like Miami. We could do it in Miami. Or maybe do an Austin or Nashville, which are classic. Um,

and I went through this whole exercise because I wanted to make sure that no one felt constrained by money. And I

have friends who work as pro bono like attorneys and I have friends who are sorry guys soul sucking consultants who make a ton of money

and they're at the big three whatever and they make a ton of money and they don't have the same budget.

Yeah.

But I still wanted them to feel comfortable on that trip. I love how you basically did like user research literally for your bachelorette and you made it anonymous.

I said, "Please, please provide feedback."

feedback." Yeah. But you know what's so funny?

Yeah. But you know what's so funny?

Every girl that was invited to my bachelorette as they started to plan their own bachelorettees, sent out the same survey with me and I was like, "Yeah, okay." So, I'm a trends setter.

I like I am an influencer.

I really influenced.

You have been influenced.

Hey guys, let's talk about investing.

not stocks, but investing in yourself and investing in Tiger Sisters podcast.

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back to the show. So, Vivian, there's this idea of the freedom number, um, also known as the amount of money someone would need to invest to live their ideal life.

I call it the FU number.

Freedom number, FU number. Um, whichever

one. Um, let's talk about the idea of calculating this number. Do you think people underestimate how powerful it is to actually put a number on financial

freedom? And what is your FU number?

freedom? And what is your FU number?

So, my FU number and it's so funny. The

last time I shared this on a podcast, people were like a gasast until I did the math. Um, you're like, "Let's work

the math. Um, you're like, "Let's work backwards here."

backwards here." Yeah, let's work back here. Sure. Okay.

My FU number is 25 million. Reason

being, at a very conservative 4% return, that returns a million bucks a year.

If I can't live for a million bucks a year, like what am I doing? Like, what

could I possibly be doing? Um, no.

Because think about it, right?

Wait. And then so this FU number is like if you have 25 million in the bank, not in the bank, invested.

Invested.

So in a in a brokerage and you know across all of your different things.

But the way you calculate it is you picture your perfect year.

Then you divide by 0.04, which represents that conservative 4% return.

And you're going to get a bigger number.

And that's the number that you're going to want to have invested. And the reason why I think about it this way is because

at a million dollars, I would be able to comfortably cover my mortgage.

I will likely be raising children in an incredibly high cost of living major metro.

Let's call it two kids to be conservative. If I end up with one, I'm

conservative. If I end up with one, I'm still probably very happy and I don't need the second one. But if I have two, what does that look like? They're

probably going to private school. I went

to public school, but I also grew up in a really nice school district that like my parents bought the smallest house in the best school district, so I could go there. But like in major cities,

there. But like in major cities, sometimes it's the luck of the draw. You

may not necessarily be in a school district that you feel very strongly about. It's a private school, super

about. It's a private school, super expensive, especially at the beginning of their life. You're hiring a full-time nanny that can help, especially if both parents are working parents, which we are,

which we would be. I'm not pregnant, guys. Um, I don't know why I use the

guys. Um, I don't know why I use the present tense verb of that. Um, but like a full-time nanny in a place like New York City.

Yeah.

That's 135 G's a year.

Yeah.

You are literally paying someone's salary with benefits. By the way, let's say I'd also like to go on vacation. I'd

also like to go out to eat. I'd also

probably like to take care of my parents.

It all costs money.

It all costs money. And I'm working taxes into that, too.

And so, I think 25 mil is my number. I

think it was really helpful for me to be able to visualize that because I knew how much further I had to run.

I am very much someone who when I'm like in the gym, I need to know how much further I have to go.

Yeah.

Like when I pelaton, some people hide the bar of how much time is left on the workout. Absolutely not. That bar needs

workout. Absolutely not. That bar needs to be seen at all times. That bar is the only reason I can continue.

Yeah. Okay. When I do like Barry's workout, like I love it when they say, "Okay, 60 seconds left." Cuz then I can count it down.

You can do anything for 60 seconds. You

can do anything for 60 seconds.

When they're like, "Oh, countdown five, four." I'm like, "Yes, because I can do

four." I'm like, "Yes, because I can do anything for 5 seconds."

But like I need to know how much further I have to go.

Yeah. Yeah. In the same way, like even when I'm like working out with a trainer or something and I'm lifting really heavy and I'm like sometimes my trainer cuz she'll try to like squeeze extra

reps out of me. She's a great trainer obviously. Um but like I'll be on rep

obviously. Um but like I'll be on rep like 10 and I'm wondering is this a 12 or a 15?

I'm like how many more?

Yeah. Yeah.

And she'll think and if it's 12 I'm like hell yeah. If it's 15 I'm like I got a

hell yeah. If it's 15 I'm like I got a ways to go. If it's 20 I'm cooked. But

like having an FU number is the same benchmarking process that I find personally is very helpful to me.

If you're someone who swipes away the tracker, maybe it won't be as helpful for you, but I want to see how much further I have to go and I still got a ways to go. So,

so for this the 25 million the FU number, does it include both liquid and illquid assets? So, does it include the

illquid assets? So, does it include the equity value of your house even if you haven't like completely paid the mortgage off? It would have to be assets

mortgage off? It would have to be assets that are actively able to throw off like gains.

Yeah.

The alternative.

So you wouldn't count a house in that then?

You can because you can borrow against the house, right?

However, the borrowing against also gets very dicey. Yeah.

very dicey. Yeah.

Because if you borrow and you get a little bit underwater on things, you might owe some money back. Then it get you get a little

money back. Then it get you get a little tricky. If we want to keep things

tricky. If we want to keep things simple, I would say have it be assets that are actually going to throw off interest, you know, cash, any sort of gains that you're going to be able to extract.

Yeah. So, house, yes, car, no.

I feel like unless you are buying one of like the six McLarens they made this year, your car is not an investment, right? Those super cars, the only people

right? Those super cars, the only people that have access to even purchase them aren't considering them as investments.

But they may double in value because people are dying to get them.

Yeah.

No one is dying for your base model Lexus, my Toyota Corolla Cross hybrid, right? Literally, right? Like nobody is

right? Literally, right? Like nobody is dying for that.

Yeah.

If you buy a new car, as soon as you whip it off the lot, Yeah.

down 10%.

Just immediately just cuz you touched it, that's your car now. Down 10%. In the

first three to five years, that's generally where you're going to see the most depreciation.

And by year five, that car could be worth like half of what you paid for it.

Yeah.

Unless there's some freak scenario of there's some sort of shortage and like now used car prices are going up. Like I

understand those scenarios occur, but I never think about a car as an investment.

So, what's your take on leasing versus buying cars? What What do you do?

buying cars? What What do you do?

I don't have a car at all because Chopper only.

Chopper only. Uh, no. Oh my god. I've

actually never been in a helicopter. I

don't like the idea of being in a flying death rock.

Um, but I am someone who is very much like costbenefit analysis. I live in Miami full-time. I live on the beach.

Miami full-time. I live on the beach.

So, like I can walk a lot of places, but also I'm thinking about how often am I actually how often would it actually benefit me to drive somewhere? Mhm. And

then I think what would that lease cost for the year? What would the insurance on that cost? What would the gas or the electricity to charge it cost? What

would the maintenance on it cost?

What like all of these things, right?

Yeah.

Like I'm Asian, so I don't do this, but like people even get their car washed.

Did you know that? My husband made a comment about a car wash the other day and I was like, first off, that's what the rain is for. like we didn't do that growing up. He was like, "You've never

growing up. He was like, "You've never been through a car wash?" And I'm like, "No."

"No." Also, you know, a car wash is like $125.

Yeah.

Well, some of them are. They start at like $35 to $40.

You know, rain car wash.

Rain is free. I think we have to acknowledge rain is free. And that is like my parents would deliberately park our cars outside of the garage when it rained so they would get washed.

I It's It's actually really funny. So,

between the two of us, so I don't have a car either. I just because I leased a

car either. I just because I leased a car back in the day. I returned it after 3 years with less than 5,000 miles on it. I was barely using it.

it. I was barely using it.

Think about the times that you would want to drive.

Are you going to go out to dinner with friends? Are you going to have a drink?

friends? Are you going to have a drink?

You're not going to drive home. That's

not safe. or oh, I guess I could like take my car to the Pilates studio, but then either I have to valet it or I have to circle the block four times trying to find a parking spot. I'm just going to

Uber. Like, it's fine. And for me, I

Uber. Like, it's fine. And for me, I think when you're thinking about leasing or buying or just taking a ride share, it's ultimately comes down to your use.

It comes down to what you're trying to solve for. I have a friend who moved to

solve for. I have a friend who moved to Texas for his job and he leased a car.

He's a beautiful car. He definitely

doesn't drive it enough, so probably shouldn't have. But the reason he leased

shouldn't have. But the reason he leased is there's a nonzero chance that he might get transferred to the LA office or the New York office or the London office or like whatever. He wants to have flexibility. Great. You don't have

have flexibility. Great. You don't have to figure out how to sell your car. But

if you are buying a car that's like a Toyota Sienna, you have two kids that have to go to soccer practice and hockey camp and all that stuff and you know you're going to drive this car into the

ground, maybe you buy it. It depends on who you are. There's no such thing as the perfect answer for anybody.

It is up to you and your lifestyle.

My lifestyle is I am a hermit until I'm not. And when I'm not, there's no chance

not. And when I'm not, there's no chance I'm trying to be driving because let's be honest, for this podcast, I rocked up six minutes in advance of when we were supposed to start filming. Can you

imagine if I had to find parking?

I'd be spinning the block, spinning the block, being like, "Hey guys, I can't find a parking spot. Help me." Like,

it'd be so embarrassing.

An Uber dropped me off. It was really easy. Mhm.

easy. Mhm.

But okay, so speaking of of being Asian, so recently our mom said to us, she was like basically we we have this conversation with our mom sometimes where we're like, "Hey, like we're doing

well. Like we we can be a little bit

well. Like we we can be a little bit looser with the purse strengths and she's like, "Are you sure you guys are doing well?" Because I feel like when I

doing well?" Because I feel like when I think of someone who's doing really well, they have multiple cars, they have multiple houses, they own multiple houses. And she's like, "I don't see you

houses. And she's like, "I don't see you guys doing either of those things."

Literally, she says that to us. So then

I'm I mean sometimes we we get into the conversation, sometimes we don't. But um

speaking of owning houses, what is your take on owning houses for millennials and Gen Z and having that be um I don't know, like an an indicator of like

you're doing well versus versus renting.

You do not have to own a home to be doing well financially.

But is it a good investment? Should we

still aspire to it? Is that something?

you not just hear me soap box. It

matters who you are and your lifestyle.

So, I think something that people forget is they like buy this house and they're so excited and they're like, "Oh crap, I'm actually still very much in the growing phase of my life.

You bought a house that was too small.

Now you got three kids. What are you going to do?" Cuz let me tell you right now, it's cute that they share a bedroom. It's not cute when they're 15.

bedroom. It's not cute when they're 15.

They're not going to want to do that.

Um, oh, you got a new job opportunity somewhere else. Guess what? You have to

somewhere else. Guess what? You have to own a home for minimum five to seven years for all of those closing and one-time costs to make sense. Okay.

Also, by the way, think you're forgetting property taxes, homeowners association. If you live in a condo

association. If you live in a condo building, it's called common charges.

Um, there's maintenance fees. We showed

up back to our apartment after we went to Japan for the holidays last year. Oh,

whole HVAC system broken. Good thing I didn't buy a Birkin in Japan because I'm gonna spend 10 G's fixing this and I'm not even really going to enjoy it.

So, like it's all about you.

I think you can be financially successful without owning a home.

However, I will very much admit for so many people, your mom included, owning a home is still a marker of the American dream.

And I think that is okay if you want it to be a part of your American dream.

But it doesn't have to be.

Yeah. I will say I think your mom might be under the spell of looking rich versus being rich, right? I can't comment on that legally.

right? I can't comment on that legally.

You're you're like, "My mom will watch this and we will get into a fight."

I can't comment.

Um mom, she said it about you, not us, right? Um, but I think it's all about

right? Um, but I think it's all about like actually understanding what somebody values because in the case of so many immigrants, I do find that they

their perceived wealth or like their understanding of wealth is only based on what they've seen in the movies and media.

Whereas like the more truly truly wealthy people I've met and at this point I've met a number of billionaires.

I've met people who are very much high high hundreds of millions whatever.

They don't have these kinds of rules the way that the average person, the average earner is like this is what it means to be rich or wealthy.

They don't ascribe to any this is what it means.

They're like it means whatever the hell I want it to mean.

And so two notes. One, I think we can tell mom

two notes. One, I think we can tell mom that just because you guys have not chosen to ascribe to some traditional

markers of wealth building doesn't necessarily mean that you guys aren't doing well financially at your own risk. Say that your own risk. That's not advice.

risk. That's not advice.

She knows.

Um, but two, I would also encourage you to ask yourself why you feel so comfortable being looser with the purse strings.

because there's an opportunity cost to everything.

I think you guys are at the beginning of a very lucrative, very illustrious career. Would those dollars be better

career. Would those dollars be better invested somewhere else?

So, maybe I'm playing both sides. These

are good questions.

Maybe I'm still hoping to be invited to family dinner night.

Awesome. Awesome. So, Vivian, to wrap this up, we have a fun little speed round and it's a game called Would You Rather, but rich girl edition.

Okay.

So, would you rather have a cleaning lady come every single day or have 10 Birkin bags in your closet right now?

Cleaning lady every single day. I don't

even have to think about that question.

A Birkin is just a bag. I can literally over there trash bag is just a car wash.

The rain is just a car wash. It

literally I can literally You see that trash bag right there? I can use that trash bag and carry more stuff than a Burkin can carry. Actually, I'll hoist it over my back. My back. I don't care.

But to have a housekeeper come every single day, would save me so much time. And I think right now in my position in my life at

my moment, this era, time is the most valuable thing I have because it's the only thing I can't buy more of.

Hell yeah. Vivian, would you rather never have an avocado toast in your life ever again or never be able to order food delivery again?

I don't even like avocado toast. So, uh,

go ahead and put that Uber Eats, Door Dash, Postmates right into my pocket. I

love getting delivery.

There is something so, again, it's back to the time thing. There is something so satisfying. You know what I'll do? And

satisfying. You know what I'll do? And

this just tells you about what my week looks like.

I will be halfway through like a treadmill workout or a Pelaton class or whatever and I'll have already pre-tied up what I want for dinner and I've

calculated like circumnavigated the location of the restaurant with how much time is left on my workout and I will be like I know if I order right now the

moment I am done my workout the food will have arrived instead of having to have gone to the restaurant and back I got to work out. I got to do something really nice for myself physically,

mentally, emotionally. Working out is

mentally, emotionally. Working out is good for you. Moving your body is good for you. But also,

for you. But also, there's a little delicious Pokeball on the way. Like, you know what I mean? I

the way. Like, you know what I mean? I

have something to look forward to.

Um, so I love takeout.

So, the last would you rather. Would you

rather retire at 40 with a modest lifestyle or work until 65 but be extremely wealthy?

65.

You want to know why?

Yeah. Why? Because if I retired at 40, which by the way I think I will be able to do, I'd be bored out of my gourd.

Like I don't think if I'm transparent, I will ever retire.

Like even when I've hit my FU number, even when I'm good to go, I just think I'm going to downshift on things that I currently say yes to because I need the money.

And then I'll be doing more volunteer work. I'm going to be doing a lot more

work. I'm going to be doing a lot more speaking events for free. Maybe I will, you know, build a curriculum with the local New York public high schools to teach financial literacy. I don't know.

These are like pipe dreams I have. Yeah.

But like I don't think work is something that I want to give up.

I have the luxury of that, but also I think that like getting to do something versus having to do something wakes you up in a very different way.

I love that. So, I'd rather wait and have those years to be doing something meaningful, but then also, you're telling me you're guaranteeing me an extremely lavish retirement. Hell yeah.

Thank you so much, Vivian, for sitting down with us for this Tiger Sisters episode. For everyone who's watching or

episode. For everyone who's watching or listening, where can they find your books and where can they find your socials?

Um, thank you guys so much for having me. I really appreciate it and I can't

me. I really appreciate it and I can't wait to meet our Tiger mom soon.

Come over for dinner.

Um, well, I'll come over for dinner. Um,

but you guys can all find me as your rich BFF across social media. And if you are interested in getting one of my books, they're both New York Times bestsellers. The first one is titled

bestsellers. The first one is titled Rich AF and the second one is titled Wellendowed. You can get them wherever

Wellendowed. You can get them wherever books are sold. And check them out.

Yay. Thank you. Thanks for having me.

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