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[music] So on on this episode of the Masamara podcast, we are delighted and honored to welcome Jake Greavves Cook. Welcome,

Jake.

Thank you very much, Steve. Pleasure to

be with you.

Jake has a an enormous backstory to tell us about his relationship with Kenya and and with the Masimara. Um why why don't we start at the beginning very briefly

Jake and give us a a quick update about um your your early life and your relationship with Kenya and how it evolved.

Well I grew up in Kenya. My parents uh having been through the war decided to to move to Africa. Um I went to school

in Nairobi and then um after university in in England um I joined the blocks

group which was really a pioneer company in terms of um developing tourism in Kenya. So they had some of the first um

Kenya. So they had some of the first um safari lodges and they had the new Stanley Hotel and the Norfolk Hotel,

Nali Beach and Sinbad in Mindi and Kikarok and Sambururu and Treetops. So I

worked for with block hotels for about 10 years sort of man and boy. I started

off as an assistant manager in um Karro Lodge in the Mara in 1972 which is quite a long time ago and um I was eventually

managing director and then we had the awful uh incident of the Norfolk Hotel bombing. Um we rebuilt the hotel but um

bombing. Um we rebuilt the hotel but um in 1981 I decided to have a change of scene and

went to the UK uh taking you know my my family. Um but then and I was involved

family. Um but then and I was involved in tourism there with uh Kuoni Travel which at the time was the leading

longhaul tour operator. Um and then I went I went back to Kenya.

um and was involved in uh developing the conservancy concept. Uh having having

conservancy concept. Uh having having worked for 10 years with blockadels and seen the sort of startup of of of tourism

um I had a few ideas and I felt that tourism could be used uh to do more for conservation. I think in the past

conservation. I think in the past tourism had just taken advantage of the fact that there were these amazing wildlife areas. But as the human

wildlife areas. But as the human population grew and as areas that had previously been wildlife habitat were uh

settled or were developed used for agriculture, the space for wildlife was was shrinking. And it was pretty obvious

was shrinking. And it was pretty obvious and evident to me that um the national parks with the exception really of Tsavo

were relatively small and would become islands cut off from each other um and that there was a need to look after um

dispersal areas and wildlife corridors so that the animals would still have space to live. So I was then involved in

setting up um well uh we established game water safaris first and then we worked with local communities to see if

we could use land outside the national parks um as wildlife habitat and then to use small-cale tourism to pay for the

costs of running the conservies that we were involved in setting up. So that was really how I first got involved in the in the the conservancy concept and the

and the wildlife conservation and that that spans um several decades of of um from far distant past to to the part of Kenya that I remember. I think

we we crossed paths in the probably the '9s. Would that have been when you were

'9s. Would that have been when you were setting up the first Pini camp around um Ambbecelli? Would that be right?

Ambbecelli? Would that be right?

Yes. I think you were involved in starting the ecoturism society of Kenya and um I was also joined that and became the chairman um and carried on um and

expanded that and used the the conservation sorry the ecoourism society to develop a standard for safari lodges

and camps. Um we had these gold uh e we

and camps. Um we had these gold uh e we had the eco rating system gold silver and bronze and I think there's probably over a hundred or or more camps and in

fact probably considerably more than that now a large number of the camps and lodges in Kenya have an eco rating um given to them by the ecoourism society.

Um so yes I think we we came across each other then [clears throat] and that was when we started the idea of the pirini camps. The idea being to have smallcale

camps. The idea being to have smallcale camps which would not have a big footprint and and a big impact on the environment and to use those camps to

follow the sort of principles of ecoourism which was really to um you know to to to seek for a way to be sustainable which is a word much banded

around these days. But um essentially to use small-cale tourism to benefit first of all the environment and you know the habitat and the wildlife species but

secondly the people whose land is being used to generate an income for the people whose land is used for wildlife tourism and to create jobs and

livelihoods especially um as well as paying uh rent and then thirdly to create an experience for the visitor. So

it's a sort of three-fold thing. One is

the habitat and the environment. Two are

the people who own the land and should benefit from it and should have the opportunity of being involved in running it and earning an income. And thirdly is the um the experience that the visitor

has a form of tourism that um enables people to enjoy getting close to nature without damaging it.

Yeah. I I I think it's it's um a shame in in a way that ecoourism and and Kenya uh don't get a a greater visibility, a better press. Um, unfortunately Kenya

better press. Um, unfortunately Kenya has got into a bit of a downward spiral with, you know, too many camps, too many visitors, too much overcrowding. And

yet, we forget that there's this incredible history going back, you know, 30 years or more now um of environmental responsibility. And as you say, an awful

responsibility. And as you say, an awful lot of camps and operators um have got those accreditations and and do act responsibly. And I think it's it's great

responsibly. And I think it's it's great to be able to give them a bit of a shout out, don't you think?

Well, I think that's right. I think that there are many people who have made a positive contribution and there are many safari companies that are operating in

the right way and that was the reason for having the eco ratings. We wanted to be able to um recognize um businesses

that were um you know running their running their companies in a way that um could be seen to make a positive contribution in those those areas that I

mentioned you know in terms of looking after the environment and being responsible uh in terms of looking after or making opportunities available for the local communities and local

[clears throat] people including training and bringing people into um into the tourism arena. Whereas

previously they might have just been um observers from the outside looking in watching it happen. Um we now have very

many safari guides who have um completed their their um training and have achieved the um this the rating that's

given by the KPSGA, the Kenya Professional Safari Guides Association.

Um and there are very many families who are earning an income by some of their family members being involved in tourism. And so I think there are many

tourism. And so I think there are many businesses that are doing things in the right way. And I think that um in in in

right way. And I think that um in in in a way the ecoourism ratings have helped to give that recognition.

Yes. I I remember we always used to define ecoourism with um leave nothing but footprints and take nothing but photos. But it seems to have been left

photos. But it seems to have been left bobbing in the wake, doesn't it? the the

the um the the tidal wave of of human population growth and land use change and tourism numbers and and of course camps and lodges as well. Um in in your

day in in in Kikarok I mean how many other camps and lodges were there? Four

or five perhaps?

Well when I first started [clears throat] there in 1972 um Karok was actually the first lodge in the Mara and it was the only one at the

time. It was the Marus Arena was the

time. It was the Marus Arena was the second to open and Governor's camp had been operating um I think since 1970.

So there was there was no other safari lodge and there was a there was a camp governor's camp. Um I think the key

governor's camp. Um I think the key thing to remember is that um uh tourism can support conservation

and without tourism conservation can become very difficult because there is an income that tourism provides but we need to operate within a certain

framework. Um what is what goes wrong is

framework. Um what is what goes wrong is when everybody just piles in and you have more and more and more and more camps and lodges cropping up all over the place. There's been some research

the place. There's been some research done recently I think by the Mara predator group who've shown that um there are fewer lions where there are

large numbers of of camps. I think a lot of that has to do with the vehicle traffic because where there are a large number of camps there are vehicles coming in and out and in and out and if

you can reduce the vehicle traffic and if you can reduce the size of the camps and if you can spread them out then it can work very well and then you can also

move into areas where there could be tourism but there isn't any tourism. I

think if one is simply trying to stop camps and lodges and stop tourism from happening, you're going to lose out in terms of conservation. But if you can if

you can spread tourism into areas where it's not happening at the moment, then you can enlarge the amount of habitat that can [clears throat] be protected.

And there are there are fairly simple ways of achieving this. Um within our conservancy model we have a very simple

formula which is no more than one tent per 700 acres.

Um that effectively means no more on average than one vehicle per 1400 acres.

If you've got say four people, four people in some vehicles, two people in some, six in the others, four people um per vehicle is essentially 1,400 acres

per vehicle. Now, 1400 acres per vehicle

per vehicle. Now, 1400 acres per vehicle and one one tent per 700 acres and no camp larger than 12 tents has been our

our um policy. That really does reduce the amount of intensive tourism in a particular area and spreads it out. So

it's relative simple to do that. That's

a formula that we have adhered to in all the conservies where we operate. If we

could get that recognized as the norm, then you wouldn't be able to have any more campsing up in the Mara or in certain areas because they're just too many there already. And that's what's

happened in the conservies that we operate in. We have a limit. There can

operate in. We have a limit. There can

be no more camps because we've the only way there can be more camps is by enlarging the conservancy. So it is possible to reduce the intensive form of

tourism. Um it also gives a better

tourism. Um it also gives a better experience for the visitor because the one thing everybody complains about is too many vehicles at a wildlife sighting.

Yeah. Um I mean quite a number of important points that I'd like to pick up on. Um,

up on. Um, thinking back to your early days in the mar just as an example, the the ecologists would tell us that the

wildlife numbers were from then till now collapsing at pretty much the same rate that the human [clears throat] population was and the cattle populations were increasing. So there

there's a correlation over time, isn't there? That um cons conservation is

there? That um cons conservation is difficult in the face of a of a human tidal wave and there's a tension to get right there. I think as well with the

right there. I think as well with the proliferation of camps um there are people perhaps um who think that being entitled to set up your own camp is a

way of helping the local community. But

of course it's again there's a a dilemma there that as you're helping the community and as you're making money out of your business operations. So wildlife

and conservation is suffering on the other side and and there are people who think that that balance may have gone too far. Um, what what's your own view

too far. Um, what what's your own view on the the the proliferation of of camps and people and and how to to maintain the equilibrium in the longer run?

Well, I think it's absolutely right that the more camps you have, the more the experience for the visitor is spoiled and it also has an impact on the

wildlife. So it's simply a question of

wildlife. So it's simply a question of of trying to see how tourism could be managed so that the numbers are kept

within um you know reasonable limits.

And one way as I say is if somebody wants wishes to open a to start up a camp they need to have enough land in which to operate. then if if the park

should have management plans that show the carrying capacity in terms of accommodation units and facilities. Um

and if somebody wishes to have a camp in that area and create employment um they should also ensure that there's

enough land to go with it. So they need to be leasing or paying to to utilize enough land for the game drives to take place. I mean one other thing is to look

place. I mean one other thing is to look at alternatives to the standard sort of game drive idea. Um you know careering all over the place in vehicles. Uh

people go off road with large numbers of vehicles creates all kinds of tracks. It

leads to um it leads to um to erosion of the soil.

um soon as it rains you get all these different tracks acting like sort of rivulletes or mini mini rivers. Um and

so one wants to keep the the vehicle density spread out and and one way of doing that is simply to have a have a a formula which says you cannot open another camp unless you've got

additional land. So you have to have an

additional land. So you have to have an agreement with a community that they've got the space for the the game drives to take place. But as I was saying,

take place. But as I was saying, alternatives to game drives such as static observation posts, you know, by salt licks or by places that are visited by animals, um, where you're not just

driving around all the time. Not

everybody wants to be driving around and you can have a more rewarding experience. Slow down a bit, get closer

experience. Slow down a bit, get closer to nature, absorb the sounds, the sights, the smells. Um, and if you've

got a a guide who knows um what uh their stuff, and there are many excellent Kenyon guides, they can enrich the experience by explaining to you what

you're hearing, what you're seeing, and tell you about the experience that you're having.

Whereas just going into it cold for many people who are not already experienced safari goers their whole experience can be enriched if they're if it's if it's

um interpreted to them and so static observation points hides in the right place where you can view the animals without them being disturbed I think is

another way to go. Um there are there's an increased number of of lodges and camps now that have have hides where people can just uh watch what's

happening in front of them.

Yeah. I I think um the whole whole experience has on the side of being rather frenetic in in in pursuit of either migrations, large herds or or

large carnivores. um probably not helped

large carnivores. um probably not helped a lot by what people see on TV with the amazing wildlife films that have been made over the years um which they obviously want to emulate on their on

their phones. It's a bit difficult to do

their phones. It's a bit difficult to do that with the experience of just being mindfully in amongst the wildlife. I

mean I in your own camps for example, you barely need to to go anywhere and there's wildlife in and around all the time. if you have the right kind of low

time. if you have the right kind of low impact properties, you you don't need to be frenetically chasing around, do you?

Um, but the conservancy model, let's turn to that. I think you you can claim legitimately to be a bit of a pioneer in that whole thing. It seems to me to have been incredibly successful not just in

applying the the low impact formulas that you've described, but in in the whole decision-m process of of involving private investors with an ethical

approach to life um in partnership with local communities, but primarily uh to the benefit of the wildlife without which the tourists are not going to come in the first place. um talk us through

how the whole conservancy movement came about and how it's grown so much.

Well, I think that um we started off really in Selen um and that was an area that was really pretty well semi- desert. In fact, on

the maps on the old maps, it was that area was called the Neri Desert. Um and

what we wanted to do was engage with the community so they could see that there was an opportunity for them to earn an income from their land um other than

depending entirely on livestock. Now

livestock is very important to pastor communities and I certainly would not wish to suggest that we do away with livestock. in fact that if um the the

livestock. in fact that if um the the old system where livestock would graze heavily in one area and then move on is actually something that's beneficial for

the diversity of the plants. Uh it all goes wrong when people are forced to stay in the same place and when the the the herds build up in numbers and then

crash when there's a drought after excessive overg grazing. So the

livestock have a role to play and it's very similar to that of the large herbivores anyway such as buffalo and eand and all the all the grazers and browsers

the wild animals that move through the environment they tend not to be rooted in one place you know there are some species as we know which will stay I mean impala which are both grazers and

browsers some of the time they'll [clears throat] be eating grass and some of the time when there's less grass they'll be browsing on leaves but um there there is a degree of migration

that takes place. And so what I was trying to um discuss with the was of the community was what they remembered and they remembered large numbers of of of

animals there um rhinos and elephants which had pretty well gone. And I also remembered it because when I was younger I'd camped in the Selene area um and

seen it for myself. you know there's a thing shifting baseline where people remember what they remember but little do they know that it was very different um slightly earlier um so we all agreed

that there had been large numbers of wildlife they felt that they had not really benefited from the presence of the wildlife national park was formed and they were

to some degree excluded from using it and that had been an important area for grazing for them um and so what we discussed was whether we

use an area of the of the of the group branch, the Sengate group branch, and have it set aside for the wildlife. Um,

the people voluntarily moved their their bulas, which in any case were um were were temporary or seasonal bulrs. They

they moved the bulras out from a designated area of about 13,000 acres.

And we put in two bore holes so that there was water. In in the past there had been year round water in the selen lugger which is a dry river. Uh the

reason there had been water there was that the elephants used to dig and create small wells. Of course the elephants had been chased away or had had gone hadn't been seen for for 20

years. Um so by putting in a couple of

years. Um so by putting in a couple of boholes there was water there which attracted the wildlife and slowly we saw

the elephants come back. Um

the um Cynthia Moss, who you know is an absolute expert on on elephant behavior, suggested that she knew that Selenay had

once been an area that the elephants went to, that if we tried to um to do a sort of um equivalent of a paper chase, but using elephant dung from Amiselli

National Park into the conservancy, it might lead some elephants to come back and to discover that we had had a water hole there. And we did that. We chucked

hole there. And we did that. We chucked

out elephant dung from the bark all the way up to the conservancy um from the back of a pickup. And sure enough, some elephant bulls arrived and then later we

had the small family groups coming. Um

so essentially the the initial stage was to employ um uh rangers and to have the area um protected so that the wildlife

came back became habituated to moving back again. Um the community um embraced

back again. Um the community um embraced this idea. We started our small camp. Um

this idea. We started our small camp. Um

we trained the staff to you know in the kitchen and the idea was to have it almost 100% uh the local drawn from the local families apart from perhaps the

chef or mechanic um and over a period of time more people were trained and um it's very almost entirely staffed now by

people from the community. So that was the first one selling and um it's been going for a long time now there are elephants there very large variety of

species I think probably more individual species now in the consery than in the national park which is which is interesting I mean species you don't see

very often in the park like um kudu and geranuk um so that was the first and then we expanded the idea to the mara with uh

Align um Olari Muruki Nabusho um and we've worked also trying to

support other other people operating conservies such as Al Peda. Um and so yeah, it's it's been something that

started off and um it caught the it gained the the support of the local communities because without this being a partnership um they would not have

wished to continue having that large area set aside for wildlife. And now we have very many guides um who've um who

who've been working for years and years.

Yes. And and

from every measure very successful both from the community perspective and and from the wildlife and presumably from the business point of view as well. So

it's definitely a win-winwin. Um how do you see that developing though because the you know the the the tide of human population is is not going to slow down

in the short term. Um is is is the conservancy model sustainable in the way that perhaps other land use has not proved to be in Kenya?

I think the you know the big challenge as you mentioned of course is increasing human numbers um but also the the value of land land values are are are

rocketing and many land owners are tempted into selling their land which is um it's an easy way to get money quickly

but of course that money will disappear and then they're left landless. So,

we've always tried to encourage the communities not to sell their land, hang on to the land. It's an asset that they own. Um, and they earn an income from

own. Um, and they earn an income from it, albeit a smaller income than if they if they just simply sold the land. And I

think they they've they've responded to that. They've wanted not to sell their

that. They've wanted not to sell their land. They agree that selling land is

land. They agree that selling land is not a good idea. Um we've we've been forced ourselves to chip in and buy land

um in order to prevent it being sold out to outsiders who would use it for um other you know for for developing for developments that are enimical to

wildlife conservation. Um but the whole

wildlife conservation. Um but the whole idea is to keep it as something that is leased and belongs to the community. But

the the difficulty is of course that you may get a land owner who's very happy with the income he has and he has um two

of his family employed. But when he dies and he has 10 children um you know onetenth of the income split between 10

of them makes it less attractive. So the

difficulty is is really how how can how can holding land um to be used for wildlife conservation be justified when there are so many owners and how do you

increase the income and so that is that is a that is a is is the challenge um and it's and it's one that is difficult.

So as as long as um the livelihoods are there uh then it makes sense to have your your land in a conservancy. If

there's not enough income creating livelihoods then people will look for other ways. Um and what are the other

other ways. Um and what are the other ways? You know the other ways are

ways? You know the other ways are property development and um shop shopping centers or selling for um for

housing. Um I think that um

housing. Um I think that um uh high value tourism can can um can compete with with agriculture.

Um but uh it's can't really compete with property property development.

But it does mean that um access to the world's wild spaces and access to to Kenya's wildlife has become more and

more expensive. I mean the the mara

more expensive. I mean the the mara particularly is has has a conscious policy of of increasing prices in order to to try and control numbers. Um the

conservies just because of all their costs and commitments uh have to be expensive. So it's it's no longer um

expensive. So it's it's no longer um something that your your average person watching TV in in Europe or America could say, "Oh, I'd like to go on

safari." This is this is a a serious

safari." This is this is a a serious financial commitment, isn't it? And even

for local people within Kenya, although they get um discounted rates, it it's still a commitment. Um

how do you see that financial aspect playing out?

Well, I think that um [clears throat] it it becomes very expensive in areas where there's a tremendous spectacle

particularly and there are some areas where the attraction is more the landscape and of course there are very many other species

other than the big five. Um and so you know trekking, walking, getting close to nature um rather than the necessarily

the the spectacular views and where where you have the spectacle of of um the big cats, the um the migration.

Perhaps there is scope for higher higher charges just as for example with guerilla viewing. Um and so there are

guerilla viewing. Um and so there are different forms of tourism. So first of all, as I say, the spectacle and maybe

it doesn't have to be viewed in a way that simply involves um game drives.

Perhaps larger numbers can be accommodated in some form of viewing scenario like the old treetops or the ark where you have large numbers of

people. There is a spectacle to be

people. There is a spectacle to be observed. you can observe it

observed. you can observe it um without having to drive all over the place because there it is smack in front of you. So I think there needs to be new

of you. So I think there needs to be new forms of tourism developed and these are indeed happening. People are people are

indeed happening. People are people are doing that. Um but as you say the you

doing that. Um but as you say the you know it is becoming more expensive especially for overseas visitors and the cost of getting there the you know the airfare the travel is also expensive. So

I think you know different forms of tourism um to to cater for different um different different markets in in the world of ornithology um you

know birding tours around the world are are very much a thing um and and you would expect naturally to find bird hides. It's a very normal way of people

hides. It's a very normal way of people both observing and and taking photographs. So I think your idea of of

photographs. So I think your idea of of a more static wildlife experience is quite a viable one.

Yes, I think there are other examples.

One should always have a look and see what other people might be doing better.

I mean, um, birding in Kenya is fantastic. You know, there's a thousand

fantastic. You know, there's a thousand different species. It's one of the top

different species. It's one of the top birding destinations in the world. Um,

many of our guides now are very very knowledgeable about the birds. In fact,

they even enjoy bird watching themselves. Um so if you look at a place

themselves. Um so if you look at a place like for example um Trinidad, Trinidad is has a a famous birding center called

the Azorite Center where people particularly from North America go in very large numbers just to photograph birds. They have they've encouraged the

birds. They have they've encouraged the birds through feeding stations um and that sort of thing. But you can you can you can encourage birds by making sure

the right plants are there. You don't

need to sort of put out um bird tables with food on it. It can be done in a more natural way, you know. Um but there are so many birds and um a lot of the

camps you can you can see very many different species just walking around the grounds of the lodges and many people miss this. But where the lodges have got guides who are able to take

people on on nature walks um it can enhance the experience considerably.

I think it is quite remarkable how how the Kenyan guides have this generation have have become so much more knowledgeable and and so so very good at communicating and and interacting with

their guests as well. Um, do you think there is a a new generation of of indigenous Kenyans who are picking up the um the the the gauntlet and and

running with it now? People like you and I are are coming into our latter ears.

Oh yes, very much so. I think um you know the many of the Kenyan guides are are fantastic. coming up. Um I enjoy

are fantastic. coming up. Um I enjoy interacting with our own guides and terms of sightings and things people have seen and between them there's a huge wealth of knowledge in terms of the

observations they've made and things they've they've seen um so many experiences they've had um and as I say

many of them in in enjoy it. I know

there was um there was a Masai friend of mine from one area who went to attend a a wedding of another guide in another area and suddenly he rushed off and was

had his binoculars and was looking at a bird that he'd never seen before.

Everybody everybody thought this was quite funny, but in fact he was very enthusiastic and uh wanted wanted to see that bird and that was in his spare time. He wasn't taking tourists to see

time. He wasn't taking tourists to see it. So, I think um there's a genuine

it. So, I think um there's a genuine interest and love of of of wildlife that um the more you're exposed to it um the more you begin to appreciate it. And

this is part of the whole idea of slowing down and getting more in the moment and getting closer to nature. You

see the tourists arrive, they're often quite stressed out. They've, you know, this is their holiday. They've getting

away from work, the rat race, and they're still frenetic. Um, but once they've slowed down a bit and begun to

see the, you know, the bigger scene around them and and see how how the animals behave, um, they they enjoy it far more and especially when they've got

a guide who can interpret it to them, otherwise they'll miss um and not realize what's happening.

Well, Jake, I'm I'm sure you could share very many more stories of all of your time in Africa and and helping with uh both the conservation and the development of tourism in your own very

unique way. But I'm going to say thank

unique way. But I'm going to say thank you very much for for this chat today.

Um and hopefully we can pick up another time and um share some more intimate details of your involvement um and and your success stories. It has to be said.

I think you you should be proud of of what you've done both both with ecoourism, with conservation, with game watches and the camps and and I'm sure the communities would recognize that.

Well, that's very kind. Thank you very much, Steve. It's been a pleasure

much, Steve. It's been a pleasure talking to you. Thank you.